Abbas: Killers of Jews are not murderers

[drdon326]

Campaigning in the northern Samaria town of Jenin Thursday, PLO chief and PA presidential frontrunner Mahmoud Abbas looked to score points with the local terror chiefs and their adoring public.

Speaking to the several thousand people who had gathered to welcome him, Abbas declared the terrorist killers of Jewish men, women and children were “neither criminals nor murderers. Rather they are fighting for the honorable lives of their Palestinians brothers.”

During is visit Abbas was escorted by the Al Aqsa Brigades “military” wing of his own Fatah party.

Local Al Aqsa leader Zakariya Zubeidi, who tops Israel’s list of most wanted terrorists, personally carried the PLO chief on his shoulders through Jenin’s “refugee” camp.

Speaking later to Israel’s Channel 10 News, Zubeidi said there had been no “talking about the end of the intifada, not about a ceasefire and not about an end to terror attacks” when he and Abbas met.


http://www.jnewswire.com/library/article.php?articleid=394

...............................................................

Talk about ending terrorist attacks??.....of course not.

Yup...abbas has a lock on the TERRORIST vote. Lovely

[benburch]

1. What a nice man.

The sort of guy you'd be proud to bring home to smother.

[drdon326]

2. So killing innocent women and children is now "honorable", huh?

Taking war crimes to a new low.

[LiberalFighter]

4. Then it won't be murder for those same Jews to kill his people!!!!!

[drdon326]

9. Ohhhhhh....thats different.......

no sooner does israel nail some terror-thug , then Saeb "jenin massacre" erakat and Hanan "what pa tv antisemitism? Ashwari will be screaming from the roof tops and you can expect the UN to immediately ISSUE a resolution condemning israel.

[Forkboy]

15. That seems to be the message many will take from it

And it's damned hard to blame them.

[Forkboy]

3. All those who couldn't wait for Arafat to be gone take note

Same goes to all of those who can't wait for Sharon to be gone.

The next in line isn't automatically a step up.

The region wont be seeing peace in our lifetime. :-(

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maple]

6. Well everybody insisted

Arafat was the problem, and with him gone, peace would break out.

However, Arafat was a moderate compared to what's in waiting.

[Igel]

47. "Everybody" is always a bad word.

Some ME pessismists dissented (although, on principle, they didn't mourn Arafat's passing to the beyond, be it great, small, or merely slimy), and said it would be status quo for a few more decades. Others predicted it would be worse. I'm still hoping they're wrong; but I think I'd have bet the other way.

There's (almost) always somebody who calls it right. It's the infite-number-of-monkeys phenonemon.

A LaRouche-dominated newspaper back in the 1980s when Tito died in Yugoslavia predicted that Yugoslavia would break up in a decade or so and would lead to a massive Croat-Bosnian-Serb bloodbath, and then to bloody problems with the Albanians. Everybody else was semi-celebrating, or indifferent. These folks were loony, right-wing boobs. But that one they called on the money.

[The Magistrate]

7. If The Summary Is Accurate, My Dear Doctor

Mr. Abbas has said a damned stupid and misguided thing, which must inevitably call into question much about him....

"Hope is the worst of evils, for it only prolongs our sufferings."

[bemildred]

11. He's been saying a bunch of stuff like this, for some time.

Since the campaign started, actually.

[drdon326]

12. "Dont give me facts.......my minds made up."

lol

[bemildred]

14. I'm sorry, you will just have to turn your eyes away at the proper moment.

I can't make exceptions for you. Reading on the internet is a choice,
not a requirement, and we all need to learn to make good choices in
life.

[The Magistrate]

13. Perhaps, My Friend, My Mind Has Been Elsewhere

This particular one seems a bit more over the top than anything that has previously crossed my eyes. Endorsements of struggle, posturings over "right of return" and Jerusalem, are somewhat different than a statement that, if this is an accurate report, the intentional killers of minor civilians are honorable men doing honorable duty.

It does point to a possible problem, though, that will please neither of us: if this is the sort of swill that has to be talked to get elected, than the popular sentiment among the people of Arab Palestine must be read as one of war without stint or limit, and it will be very unfortunate for them if that is the case, and a democratic government they elect acts in accordance with that popular view.

"Democracy is a system of government based on the belief the people know what they want and ought to get it, good and hard."

[bemildred]

16. Well, it's hardly your duty to keep up Sir.

I was pointing out it's been going on for a bit and the
GOI has so far seen fit (mostly) to overlook it. A few:

---

Zubeidi told Channel 10 TV news that, "We are not talking about the end of the intifada, not about a cease-fire and not about an end to terror attacks."

Regarding the wanted militants, Abbas said that, "They are neither criminals nor murderers. Rather they are fighting for the honorable lives of their Palestinians brothers."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/521608.html

---

Whoops dupe.

---

In his address, Abbas referred to the 2002 battle, in which 52 Palestinians and 23 Israeli soldiers were killed, recalling that Arafat called the camp "Jeningrad." The crowd responded with a healthy cheer.

"When we demand security," Abbas said, "we demand it for all our citizens, including our wanted brothers who also deserve a life of security and safety," he said, in a reference to Zubeidi and his group, evoking another big cheer.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37072-2004Dec30.html?sub=AR

---

Then there is this one:

Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom Monday slammed Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, saying Israel could not ignore the "harsh statements" Abbas made at campaign kickoff speech at the weekend, and comparing his views to those of the late Yasser Arafat.


Shalom said Israel would do all it could to foster January 9 Palestinian elections to elect a successor to the late Palestinian Authority chairman, but that it would expect immediate action from an elected Palestinian Authority government in curbing terrorism and incitement.

In a Ramallah campaign speech on Saturday, Abbas declared that peace will not come until Israel takes down all settlements, returns to the pre-1967 war borders, accepts a Palestinian state with its capital in Jerusalem, accepts the return of Palestinian refugees and releases all Palestinian prisoners including Marwan Barghouti.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=83145&mesg_id=83145

[The Magistrate]

18. It Is Unfortunate, My Friend

The earlier statement, much discussed here, was at least couched in policy terms. The initial report of this statement, while cast by the writer in charged terms, does not seem on the basis of more sober reporting to have been a distortion.

While it is my view that an amnesty would be expedient on the conclusion of a peace, this is far from agreeing these particular fellows have any right to "a life of security and safety." Certainly while a state of war exists, they have no more right to survive it than any other combatant participating in it, nor can the leadership of the al Aksa group be regarded as anything but war criminals, on the record of their operations directed deliberately against purely civilian targets.

[drdon326]

17. "Ding, Ding, Ding...we have a winna!!"

if this is the sort of swill that has to be talked to get elected, than the popular sentiment among the people of Arab Palestine must be read as one of war without stint or limit, and it will be very unfortunate for them if that is the case, and a democratic government they elect acts in accordance with that popular view..


AND this appears to be what the palestinian people want to hear.


Which brings us back to that rhetorical repetitive question...

"Do the palestinians really want peace?"

[Darranar]

20. And the Israelis elected Sharon. n/t

[bemildred]

23. Everyone wants "peace" Don.

The dispute is over the terms.

[King Mongo]

50. Same thing on both sides

The same thing happens on both sides.

People win the election by expression support for a one-state solution. However, once in office, the reality of the conflict forces them to work towards a two-state solution.

[Smarmie Doofus]

8. So.. other words... all of the Sharon-era propaganda about ....

Arafat being "the obstacle to peace"... and that Israel didn't "have anyone to negotiate with"... and that Israel and the US were going to wait for "moderate" leadership to emerge" is now, well.... "inoperative"?

Now what... wait for Abbas to die?

Are we sure we are not just looking for excuses NOT to negotiate seriously ( i.e. offer a viable, independent Palestinian state) with WHATEVER Palestinian leadership emerges?

It would appear, from your post , that Israel's problem is , fundamentally with the PEOPLE and not the LEADERSHIP of the Palestinians.

10 plus years of incessant propaganda to the contrary notwithstanding.

[The Magistrate]

10. As A Matter Of Curiousity, Mr. Ho

What do you think of the statement?

[Smarmie Doofus]

31. Hey, no fair... you answer my three Q.s first., then.....

I'll answer your's.

[The Magistrate]

35. They Are Inconsequential, Mr. Ho

Nor were they addressed to me.

But your view of this statement by Mr. Abbas is a matter of some curiousity for me, and an answer would be appreciated....

[Smarmie Doofus]

44. They are the very *opposite * of inconsequential.

Nontheless, since you'd prefer not to go there....

explain the nature of your "curiosity" and I may comment on the quote.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Sorry for jumping in here...

But I don't think the questions were inconsequential at all. The only way they could be seen as inconsequential is if we were to honestly believe that Israeli leaders can say whatever they like and we have no problems with it, and then turn around and place an entirely different standard on Palestinian leaders. The fact is the leaderships of both people seem to be very skilled at making comments that make them no better than the group they then turn around and wail about not being a partner for peace, etc...

I'll take a stab at yr question, though. I'm not entirely convinced that what was reported was in context (and to Mr. Rabbit - all the same thing being reported in Ha'aretz possibly shows is that Ha'aretz has picked up the original comment and run with it. After all, it and the western media have inadvertantly reported incorrect quotes in the past), and I'm not sure whether it's electioneering playing a huge part in things. I also don't know enough about the Al Aqsa Brigade to know what their main 'activities' are. Are they for the most part dedicated to only attacks on Israeli citizens inside Israel?

Violet...

[The Magistrate]

46. You Know My Views On The Matter, Ma'am

As there is really no sign as yet that the Israeli government does not still prefer Mr. Abbas to win over other candidates, it is a bit early to be off to the races over whether Sharon will characterize him as an obstacle to peace, or to predict there will be no negotiations with him.

The phrase "whatever leadership emerges" is rather a loaded one: the people of Arab palestine have the right to elect whatever damned fool they please to lead them; other nation's governments and peoples have the right to distrust, dislike, fear, and even despise that leader, and there are certainly possible leaderships that they would be well advised to regard in all those ways, and certainly could not be expected to regard in any other manner.

That this statement is rooted in electioneering is doubtless true; it is also possible for a politician to go too far in the pandering his profession requires. The Al Aksa Brigades have in fact carried out a number of attacks against civilians in Israel; they are sort of Fatah's effort to compete with Hamas for market share....

[Darranar]

19. Do you have a real news source for this?

Since I doubt Abbas used the term "terrorist killers of Jewish men, women, and children", quotes in context would be helpful.

[drdon326]

21. Not the quote.....read it again....

on the other hand maybe you shouldnt read it as.....hes talking about.......YOU!!

[Darranar]

22. I know it wasn't part of the quote. That was my point. n/t

[drdon326]

24. Then read this....

Zubeidi told Channel 10 TV news that, "We are not talking about the end of the intifada, not about a cease-fire and not about an end to terror attacks."

Regarding the wanted militants, Abbas said that, "They are neither criminals nor murderers. Rather they are fighting for the honorable lives of their Palestinians brothers."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/521608.html

[Darranar]

25. Thank you. His statement there is disgusting. n/t

[King Mongo]

48. Disgusting, nevertheless

I agree what Abbas said is disgusting.

However, such a statement may be needed in order for him to gain enough support to keep Palestinians together and lead them.

If Abbas does not express some type of support for the resistance, then the Palestinian Authority will be replaced with the Hamas.

It's all politics. Nevertheless, actions count more than words.

[King Mongo]

49. Also....

I might add that I had anticipated two possibilities regarding Abbas.

1) Abbas will be blamed just like Arafat
2) Abbas will resign quickly due to a lack of support on the Palestinian side

It seems as if Abbas may be able to lead the Palestinian people, but will be blamed just like how Arafat was blamed.

[ashiebr]

26. Why does anyone....

...believe what is on a propaganda site like Jnews.

My bet is that Abbas said no such thing. Do you not think the world's media would have noticed?

[The Magistrate]

27. If You Examine The Discussion, Sir

You will see that the gist of the report is confirmed from more reliable sources....

[ashiebr]

28. I saw....

...but gist wthout context is nothing. I'd like to see a full transcript of what was said (translated, obviously!).

[The Magistrate]

29. Context, Sir

Is in this case sufficiently obvious from general knowledge of the circumstances. The fellow is on a campaign swing, and meeting with a militant leader who is widely popular....

[drdon326]

30. Yeah....and I'm sure you want ....

at least 10 signed affidavits and several full lenghth video-tapes from at least 4 different angles with at least 3 eye-witnesses who are sworn to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth......and definitive confirmation from Electronic Intafada and Jihad-Unspun.


Riiiiight,ashiebr.

[ashiebr]

43. That would do nicely...........NT

[ashiebr]

51. I see from the Observer that...........

....he said:

'We want a state of law, with no one above the law.'

Sounds fine to me. Didn't see that in the propaganda pieces though.

[Jack Rabbit]

32. Jnews, while being what you say, is now irrelevant in this discussion

The good doctor has kindly furnished us with the same quote from Haaretz, a reliable source. From this, we must assume that Abbas said it. As The Magistrate points out, the context is fairly obvious.

While no one should envy any Palestinian leader seeking votes, Abbas, more than any other, must look toward the future. He will win this election whether or not he panders to Islamist militants, so there is no point in him doing so. Once elected, it will be his job to do what he can to conclude a peace agreement with Israel that will bring a sovereign Palestinian state into existence; to accomplish that, he will have to assure the Israelis that only the government of Palestine has the right to make war, which in turn will mean suppressing any efforts by private armies such as Hamas and the Al-Asqa Martyrs' Brigade to attack Israel. His remarks, as reported, are not helpful toward that end.

[drdon326]

33. Then you're really going to love this.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x83860

[Jack Rabbit]

34. Yes, I saw that, too

If I were to give Mr. Abbas some advice, it would be to emphasize how he will work to end the conflict and make it unnecessary for Israelis and Palestinians to fear each other.

There is more justification for Abbas' remarks as reported on the other thread than the remarks reported in this one. After all, a government is supposed to protect its citizens. That is why Israel takes such measures as it does; the only real discussion is whether such measures are effective and necessary (as you and others assert) or if other means would suffice (as I and others maintain). The Magistrate commented on a thread the other day about the possibility of a South African-style Truth and Reconciliation Commission as part of a final peace accord, an idea which I, too, have suggested on this forum from time to time in the last two or three years. Such a body, were it come to pass, would be a kind of non-punitive justice that there was egregious wrongdoing on both ends of the conflict.

However, the remarks Abbas makes here are beyond the pale. Deliberately targeting noncombatants is a war crime. The only excuse for saying it isn't murder is to say that mass murder is a very different thing from common murder, but that would be a mere quibble that won't make the dead any less dead. It certainly wouldn't provide cover from praising suicide bombings.

[drdon326]

36. Interesting....

Look at the words being used...

damned stupid
misguided thing
not helpful


SOME PEOPLE...like me...might consider abbas words as ..

accessory to terrorism
protecting murderers
incitement to genocide.


He will win this election whether or not he panders to Islamist militants, so there is no point in him doing so.

AHHH...then ask yourself WHY he is pandering to terrorism. There is really only one answer....because he believes in what atrocities they commit.

[Jack Rabbit]

39. There is more than one answer

However, I will agree that they're all ugly.

1. He really believes that the atrocities they commit are doing some good.

2. He is demagoguing the issue.

3. Having recently made remarks that sound conciliatory toward Israel, Abbas is attempting to mend fences with the radical Islamists, who (although both you and I would have it otherwise) are a powerful force in the territories.

[drdon326]

52. Well....

1.YES
2.NAH...no reason
3.no way....not when he says he will "protect" them

Its the same old broken record....say one thing to the press (violence must end)...

say something totally different to jihadofascists (you are heroes and we will protect you).

[Jack Rabbit]

54. Let's hope you're wrong

Were I a Palestinian voting in this election, I wouldn't vote for Abbas, but for Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, who is the kind of progressive technocrat that Palestine will need to establish social infrastructure in a post-bellum Middle East.

Abbas has other warts than those laid out here. Living in one of the poorest nations in the world, he owns two large houses, one in Gaza and the other in Ramallah. There is some question about where he acquired the wealth to maintain such a lifestyle. Contrary to the mood you are conveying, many are also suspicious that he will give away too much in a peace agreement. These Palestinian critics of Abbas see him as having more ambitions of being a Western toad than a Palestinian leader.

It is not unusual for a politician trying to manage popular perception to make remarks such as Abbas is making. However, a final peace agreement can only be made when each side marginalizes its respective extremists. There will be two states; the Islamic militants and the Yesha councils will just have to learn to like it. Abbas' recent remarks will only present him problems later, either with those with whom he must make peace or with those with whom he must sell a peace agreement in order to make it effective. It is as though an Israeli leader promises to make peace, suggests that will mean dismantling outlaying settlements and exchanging some acreage of presently Israeli land for those settlements that will be incorporated into Israel, and then tells the Yesha council what a great contribution they have make to peace and stability in the region over the last quarter of a century.

Nevertheless, Abbas will win. Whether he's the best person or not, or even a good one, he is the Palestinian leader with whom the world must deal. We can only hope that his intentions are better than his rhetoric in the past week. We can only hope that, unlike Arafat in his last years, he cares more about the Palestinian people than in retaining personal power in order to milk the PA cow. We can only hope that he will be firm enough both with the Israelis and with the extremists in the Palestinian territories to bring about a truly sovereign Palestine.

Some critical views of Abbas from the Arab press might be helpful here:

Profie: Mahmoud Abbas, Al-Jazeera, November 22
Why they love Mahmoud Abbas, Electronic Intifada, December 1

[Annus Horribilis]

37. Meet The New Boss

Same as the old boss.

[Malikshah]

38. This has been an illuminating discusison

Abbas--rightfully taken to task for his comments in Haaretz.

Now then--would anyone care to discuss comments made by Israeli leadership past and present? Or is that for another thread?

Sorry-- indignation, righteous or not, will not lead to peace. Demonization of figures, Palestinian or Israeli, will not lead to peace.

What will? At this point, I don't think anything will. The leadership on both sides is hamstrung (either williningly or unwillingly) and will do neither side any good.

I do know, however, that pointing out the faults of one side without addressing the self-same faults on the other--well, that is most definitely an exercise in perpetuating the problem.

Have fun.

[Walt Starr]

40. Like this is a reliable source,

:eyes:

Give me the same story from some mainstream source and I'll buy it. Propoganda organizations should not be allowed in this forum.

[Jack Rabbit]

41. See post 24

Above.

[Forkboy]

53. That would seem to rule out every source of news on the planet

[newyorican]

42. On it's face...

the statement is deplorable.

The only saving grace would be if Abbas is positioning himself to have some control over factions which have traditionally resisted the wishes of any voice of moderation. I hope tha's it, but only time will tell.