Wag the dog: Official says Sharon weighed war during probe

[aikido15]

JERUSALEM – Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon considered launching a war in the Middle East to

divert attention from a police investigation into allegations that he accepted bribes, an Israeli newspaper
reported.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_4.html



***Just another day in the life of a neocon fascist prick.

[Wonk]

1. a) more than 12 hours old. b) belongs in the I/P forum anyway

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x87249

Rules for Posting in the Latest Breaking News Forum

2. NO news that is more than 12 hours old.

7. Discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues is not permitted in the Latest Breaking News forum, and instead must be posted in the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs forum. If, however, the news item is primarily about U.S. policy in Israeli/Palestinian affairs, you may post it in the Latest Breaking News forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=124
I/P forum

[aikido15]

2. Ok, thanks...sorry.

[The Backlash Cometh]

3. Apparently Bush is getting away with it. Wage war on Iraq and we'll

never get to the bottom of 9/11.

[King Mongo]

4. One can only admire the guy

I can only admire Sharon. Not only did he shift the attention from the investigation, but he also killed the Road Map, helped Bush get reelected, gained US approval to steal land, gained US approval to practice terrorism, etc.

The guy is brilliant! What can I say. :)

[drdon326]

5. *yawn*...I seem to remember the rupukes said the same about Big Dog.

.

[pelsar]

6. such a pain those minor details....

i always read these articles in line with "aliens come down from outer space and eat yogurt"...

for those who dont know....the children of sharons advisors, the kids of the likud knesset members are in combat units. Unlike many othe western countries our elites children are found in the elite combat units. ..

let me translate: going to war, means losing your own children, (many of the recon units, commandos have a very high causulty rate in war). Now i realize these little facts really ruin a good theory about sharon and company,

but "most" parents would if they have a choice of sharon going to jail or losing their own children in a war, would keep their kids.

sorry guys, guess you'll have to find something else to demonize us with...

[drdon326]

7. Its the ...."See, they do it too" Syndrome

notice the line..

"Just another day in the life of a neocon fascist prick.".....

it must be nice to pass judgement in the safety of your own home .

The first winner of the FREE ISRAELI BUS PASS AWARD in 2005.

[eyl]

8. It should also be pointed out

that, as an opponent of the withdrawal (he resigned from the government in opposition), Hendel has an interest in bringing Sharon down.

[pelsar]

9. eyl.....

stop wtih the facts...you keep ruining a good theory about just how evil sharon and company really is!

[Forkboy]

10. Regardless,Sharon is a bad man

Do you agree?

[pelsar]

11. sharon....

is a very cunning politician, of many of his policies I disagree with. He has in many ways caused israel and others needless deaths and has through his earlier followers (hilltop youth) have caused untold damage to the israeli society.

On the otherhand, the powers that have been attibuted to him (as in the above article) are greatly exagerated, and are attempts to demonize him. To that and the attitude that allows that I disagree with 100%.

[Malikshah]

12. Demonization of a ME figure??

Color me shocked...nope--can't be done.

I mean, after all, Sharon's got more civilian blood on his hands than Arafat...but he's not a demon.

Heavens forfend that a political figure in the region be demonized...;)

[pelsar]

13. waiting for that....

i guess we're tallking about shaba and shatila....

I've always wondered why Suha (Arafat's widow) whos constant companion and financial adviser is a christian named Pierre Rizk is never mentioned.

some info:
Rizk headed the Phalangist intelligence service during the Lebanese civil war and was in close personal contact with the guerrilla group which carried out the massacre of hundreds of Palestinians at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camp in 1982.

Rizk was at the time the chief deputy of Elie Hobeika, widely held directly responsible for ordering the bloodbath.
(just do a google for: Suha phalangist lawyer)

did you ever notice how hes never really mentioned yet he was actually involved directly in the massacre....

so where as sharon is not my "favorite" kind of guy, It would seem that this guy gets a pass where as sharon doesnt....any reasons why?

(as far as arafat goes...are you counting the deaths through his wars in Jordan and lebanon)

[Malikshah]

14. As to your last question -- yes

Hey--I'm an equal opportunity judgemental person-- no free rides for anyone.

But for those who wish to demonize Arafat--he's dead-- dig up his grave and piss on his head if that's one's desire--I personally don't care.

All I ask is that the same treatment be meted out to Sharon--and as for Sharon's activities beyond Sabra and Shatila in Beirut--that also stands as part of the litany against him. :)

[QueerJustice]

16. Yes there is a reason why....

The reason is its not convenient to the thinking...Jews = bad,phalange`s who did the massacre aint Jewish......

[Paleocon]

15. That just proves to me....

that they are such extemists that they will sacrifice their own children for the "cause"...

As far as "sorry guys, guess you'll have to find something else to demonize us with..."

Stop being so defensive... No one is demonizing all Jews, someone is demonizing one particular leader that seems to have no interest in peace....

[Forkboy]

21. pelsar has already said criticizing the Israel Government is attacking him

and all Jews.

[pelsar]

25. Forkboy...

you seem to read into my comments more than is there.

feel free to critize israeli policy/israeli leaders.......as far as i am concerned.....i just dont believe general statements that "they are facists/nazis/animals etc" fit within the catagory of reasonable discussion.

whether sharon is a right wing fanatic, cunning politician, all overall shit head is one thing.....but beyond that you are then entering the world of demonization....and since he is our pm and we did elect him and he does represent us, we also have a certain identification with him...

but then thats just "us"..our culture and we are a bit sensitive......but then isnt being aware of other cultures an important part of western thought?

[Forkboy]

27. pelsar

but the israeli government elected by us, represent us. by calling our govt evil, you are calling us evil as well

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=83335#83448

Glad to know I read more into that...

[pelsar]

28. yes now your getting it

that is exactly it-calling our govt "evil" is in our eyes the same as calling us evil. The govt is made up of my neighbors, the relatives of my co workers, even some friends.

we identify with our govt. And like I said, whether you accept understand it is not the point, as part of the modern western world, where I believe there is now an understanding the different cultures have different values, and they are to be respected....this is an example of that.

the israeli culture is a specific culture based on western values but with a lot of baggage from jewish history. ....thats just us. Unlike England/the US etc were still fighting for our independance and acceptance and our govt, the IDF etc are part of this country with our govt-for good or bad.

[Forkboy]

29. gotcha

glad to finally get it!

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

18. lol

I love I/P :silly:

[Melech Hamoshiach]

19. Mee too

I've been lurking a while.

But define "neocon"

Who are the "neocons"

How, under any real definition of the term is Ariel Sharon, the Prime Minister of Israel a "neocon?"

Neocon, on DU at least, has come to mean "someone I don't like."

It's really silly, and shows a lack of intellect.

Are there non-American neocons? Can someone who has been a Right-winger their entire life be a "neocon?"

In America at least, almost all the neocons are Jews. To hear it applied to a foreign leader, whose only connnection with the "neocons" is that he is Jewish too, is silly.

[Darranar]

20. These days it is essentially used as "warmongering right-winger"...

Sharon qualifies.

A more precise definition would be a group of conservative thinkers (term used loosely) advocating a more active US foreign policy aimed at achieving and preserving global leadership militarily, economically, and politically. (In theory, this would be benevolent leadership, but looking at their record, and the record of empires in general, I doubt it.) Sharon does not qualify for that definition.

[Melech Hamoshiach]

22. I agree with the more precise definition

Of course the original neocons used to be "liberal" (or at least Democratic), which is where the "neo" comes from.

It's a pet peeve of mine. When people like Shrub are called Neocon, it's just inaccurate. To call a prime minister of a foreign country "neocon" is even more so.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. No, it's not inaccurate...

It's one of those things that can be argued either way. Bush was an empty vessel when it came to foreign policy right up to Sept 11, and since then he's embraced the neo-con's agenda and they channel themselves through his empty mind. So while he's not one of their 'thinkers', it can be argued that he's now a neo-con...

If a leader of a foreign country supports a new world order with the US at the helm, that the US has the right to act preemptively when no other country should, that the US is the dominant world power and as such should ignore the interests of the rest of the world, US unliateralism rules, blah blah blah, then they're a neo-con. Of course the question would have to be asked about what the hell such an idiot would be doing leading a foreign country when the interests of their own country doesn't come first, but on Sharon yr right. While he benefits and probably loves the neo-con agenda, he's not one of them*....

on edit: mind you, the neo-cons put Israels interests right up there just under that of the US, so it would be quite reasonable to expect that Sharon would have no problems with that sort of scenario. After all, our little PM just loves being the 'deputy sheriff' of the US in the Pacific, and some foreign leaders are quite content to live in the shadow of the US getting the benefits they get as allies...

Violet...

[Lithos]

24. A Neo-Con is someone who follows the Neo-Con ideology

Specifically that philosophy originated by Irving Kristol and Norman Podhoretz and a group of people who centered around Senator Scoop Jackson. Most of them were Democrats who for a variety of reasons espoused a more active (domineering) US foreign policy. They were later drawn towards Ronald Reagan's gunslinger diplomacy.

Dubya is of course following more in Ronald's footsteps w/r to an ambitious and unilateral foreign policy that is creating a enmity the US will take years to overcome(*). It was Reagan who firmly established the extreme political Islamic groups. And it is Bush who is proving the greatest recruiter, or should I say uniter, they've seen.

And Bush, like Reagan, while claiming to be a fiscal conservative, is pushing the US further and further into debt with their massive big government pork barrel policies which are destroying the middle class while pouring billions into big business and big money. His vaunted tax credit is nothing more than a rehashing of the debunked trickle down economics.

However, Bush is no Reagan in that, to borrow a phrase, he is an empty vessal who lacks any of Reagan's grace and is much more bald faced in his knavery.

Because this is essentially a US-centric ideology, Sharon cannot be a Neo-Con. However, it can easily be proven that Sharon shares a similar philosphy when taken from an Israeli viewpoint.

(*) As much as Ronald Reagan fans claim he took out the Soviet Union, he was just the one who was lucky to be in office when the policies of his predecessors finally bore fruit. The fiscal and social problems which finally doomed the Soviet Union began in the late 60's and was already terminal by the mid 70's.

[Englander]

30. "And don't forget Bliar...."

"Tony Blair is the original neocon"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1334210,00.html

snip>
....In Blair's words, what began as a unilateral war(in Iraq) to enforce UN resolutions and disarm Saddam of WMD has been quietly transformed into "the battle of seminal importance for the early 21st century". According to Blair it is so important because this conflict "will define relations between the Muslim world and the west".

Blair says that the terrorists in Iraq agree with him about the importance of the battle. A coalition victory would mean "the death of the poisonous propaganda monster about America ... Lose the battle in Iraq and they lose the ability to present the Muslim world as victims and they as their champions". If losing would mean giving the terrorists the upper hand in the battle for hearts and minds in the Muslim world, then this war really was, as the US National Security Strategy puts it, a clash "inside a civilisation: a battle for the future of the Muslim world".

The neo-conservative thesis was always that the war on Iraq was part of the war on terror, that Afghanistan was not enough of a shock to shatter the confidence of states that would disobey the west. If we believe Blair's speeches after the war, paradigm change was part of the plan all along. To be clear, that means using military action as an instrument of foreign policy, not as a last resort.

The slide into "values" as the determinant of foreign policy unequivocally allies the UK to the US. The prime minister said in 2002 that the price for US engagement in the world is that "we don't shirk our responsibility. It means that when America is fighting for those values, then, however tough, we fight with her".
____________________________

"Neo-con" means supporting the Global American Empire,the "full spectrum dominence",
the right of US/UK/Israel to militarily intervene
in other countries,the support for pre-emptive war as a foreign policy,doesn't it?

[TheKingfish]

26. neocons are the US wing of the Likud n/t