7000 soldiers say they cannot follow orders to expel Jews

[mike_c]

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/4828.htm

7000 soldiers say they cannot follow orders to expel Jews
By Israel Insider staff and partners January 17, 2005

Thousands of Israeli soldiers have signed a petition saying they will refuse to fulfill army orders to evacuate Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, a settler leader said Monday.

<snip>

"I am a proud soldier in the Israel Defense Forces. My mission is to protect the state of Israel and the nation of Israel from the enemy. I could be asked to expel residents from (Gaza's) Gush Katif or the northern West Bank, but I will be unable to do so," the petition states.

[UL_Approved]

1. Interesting defiance

I wonder if this will bring about any tension in Israeli politics. Somehow, I have a hard time believing that everybody in that nation is as ultra-nationalist as the radicals in Sharon's regime. Time will tell, but this is making Israel look VERY bad, considering that Palestine is offering peace and is getting backing from Japan these days.

[QueerJustice]

8. this is making Israel look VERY bad....

It makes Israel look very democratic...its a petition...only(so far)...if action IS actually refused by soldiers they should, and I trust they will be court martialled....in the same way as any refusenik should be....

[tinnypriv]

12. Actually, it makes Israel look highly un-democratic

Since history has been kind enough to give us a controlled experiment. Namely, two virtually parallel incidents:

1. Gush Shalom distributing a booklet to soldiers identifying war crimes over which the black flag is flying.

2. Settlers and the extreme right distributing a flyer with sentences such as: "Jewish Soldier! The time has come to decide.. do you stay in an army that commits crimes like these?"

The first incident resulting the the attorney-general of Israel trying to get Gush Shalom arrested, and legislation was introducted in the Knesset which would have outlawed co-operation with international criminal tribuals or external human rights organisations (long custodial sentences for violation).

The second incident resulted in a little peep of verbal protest from the then justice minister, then zero.

Yes, very democratic - equality of principles, etc.

[The Magistrate]

16. To Be Fair, Mr. Priv

No one needs to worry about Gush Shalom turning guns against the government, while there is some real degree of worry about the "Greater Israel" types doing hust that. Thus, a quick and harsh rsponse to the former is without risk and so easily indulged in, while the latter is understandably approached with a certain circumspection. The difference does not necessarily indicate support or affinity for one over the other, and may represent a belief the one is a real threat.

Certainly the incipient movement proclaimed here to subvert the discipline of the armed forces of the state in case of orders to remove settlers in accord with state policy must be broken. My preference is for harsh means in the matter, but so long as the discipline is in fact maintained, and the orders, when they come, are carried out, how it is achieved is not of much interest to me.

[Coastie for Truth]

2. This is a statement by a "Settler Leader"

... of the extreme right wing (Noam Livnat - out beyond the Likud) and disregards the larger number who apply for Conscientious Objector status or for "Post Traumatic Stress" medical discharges.

Noam Livnat's brother Limor Livnat represents the Tom DeLay-Jim Dobson-Rick Santorum faction of the Likud Party.

[tinnypriv]

10. Not quite

Even Livnat is afraid of people to the right of her who are infiltrating the Likud. She warned about them before the last central committee conference (zo arteniu, manhigut yehudit, etc).

Livnat is also quite stalinist, and favors state intervention in firing university professors and such (at least now she ain't in charge of that as directly). Not quite Tom Delay.

[pelsar]

3. a lot of propaganda floating around......

who are those who signed?....cooks, drivers? reservists? and did they really sign?....and who says the army is going to do the evacuation?....

anyways my friends in gaza say they will go if the govt says so, and that is 99% of them....the small minority that is against is making a lot of noise from the westbank

middle east politics..lots of smoke and mirrors.

[Coastie for Truth]

4. Posturing for the best "eminent domain" deal

The settlers are going to be paid - handsomely - to leave their settlements. Just like people are paid through "eminent domain" to move when a new highway comes through.

These settlers are like the US farmers who threaten to "stand in front of the bulldozers and stop the highway -- the sheriff will have to come and drag me out" until, viola, "The Price Is Right."

I remember that game with I-95 and I-79 and I-75.

[QueerJustice]

5. When the time comes they will act like Israeli soldiers...

...always do ,with professionalism and with the best interests of the Jewish State...

[mike_c]

6. oh please....

I really wish you'd peddle that hooey elsewhere. The "professionalism" of Israeli soldiers is notorious around the world-- they are a shining example wherever there are civilians to be humiliated at checkpoints, children to be shot while playing, homes to be bulldozed, crowds to be fired upon with missles and artillery, land to be stolen, sick and injured to be denied medical care, and aid workers to be murdered.

[QueerJustice]

7. it aint no hooey .... these are the bravest.....most

proffessional and most moral troops in the world...

...like it or not (and its clear you do not)...its just fact....


http://www.bluestarpr.com/docs/gay.pdf

and again I encourage you to buy em pizza...

www.pizzaidf.org ...some places even give you a tax deduction for doing such a mitzvah....

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QueerJustice]

15. chances of me ``shutting up``?

ZERO

[Violet_Crumble]

18. It was just an offer...

Obviously an offer found to be terribly upsetting. Oh well, no pizza from me, then...

IDF troops are no more moral or professional than the troops of many other countries. This may come as a shock but they're human beings and I'd hazard a guess that sort of slobbering and putting them up on a SuperHero pedestal would embarrass a number of them. It's incredibly nonsensical to claim any military force is the most 'moral' anyway. What the hell does that empty soundbite mean anyway? Troops carry out orders. That's what they're there for. They're not there to help little old ladies across the road or to go around helping mums with prams onto buses...


Violet...

[QueerJustice]

20. LOL

apology accepted ;)

[QueerJustice]

9. and talking about peddling hooey and garbage....

I will remind you of this....


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=84841&mesg_id=84841

[Violet_Crumble]

14. to be more specific...

...post number 18....

Violet...

[tinnypriv]

11. Or

A "killing machine", as Ha'aretz refers to the IDF in editorials sometimes.

As for "professionalism", did you just miss the fufore in Israel about the heads on sticks; the blowing away of a child on purpose and double-tapping her in the head; the violin incident; the "roulette of abuse"; the testimony of acting like "zombies" (such testimony now becoming a flood)?

That's in the last few weeks. Sheesh.

[The Magistrate]

17. All Military Organizations, My Friend, Are Killing Machines

About the only better formulation would be "killing organisms," as there always seems to me something a little wrong with mechanical metaphors for living things.

It is well known to students of the military trade that occupation duties are extraordinarily corrosive to military forces: discipline and order in military organizations stands up much better to daily attrition rates of two or three percent than it does to policing a hostile population, even when virtually no asualties attend the duty.

"If you want to test a man's character, do not give him adversity: give him power."

[pelsar]

19. occupational duty....

its the best way to destroy democratic values and morals that any soldier may have. He is placed between the proveribial rock and hard place. Between guessing what may or may not happen and between rules, orders and lots of gray areas.....and wrong decisions cost lives, while right decisions cause suffering......

and this is done by 20 yr old kids whose experience in making serious decisions is practically nil.