Family of 'collaborator' demands justice

[drdon326]

The family of a mentally retarded Palestinian man who was tortured to death earlier this month on charges of "collaboration" with Israel is demanding that the Palestinian Authority launch an investigation into the case and bring the murderers to trial.

snip

Mohammad Noubani, a 36-year-old father of three from the village of Deir Ghassaneh near Ramallah, was kidnapped by Fatah gunmen in mid-January on suspicion that he was a "collaborator" with Israel.

According to testimonies collected by the human rights group, Noubani's hands were tied to his back and he was hung naked on an olive branch. He was tortured sadistically and forced to admit that he was a "collaborator."

It said Noubani was beaten severely and the kidnappers extinguished cigarettes on his body. After the gunmen tortured him for two days, they left him half dead. Noubani was transferred to a hospital in Ramallah, where he was pronounced dead, the group said.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1106848121980

....................................................

really speaks for itself.

[drdon326]

1. 9 hours and not one response.......

interesting.

[Djinn]

3. not really

you've posted a million collaborator stories, everybody's already responded...next please

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Yeah, and I'm still waiting for a response from don..

It's only been a few weeks since I responded to him and asked a question about his interest in collaborators, so maybe I'm being too hasty. Maybe when I've got some time I should go back through each and every one of those collaborator threads and come back with every question that's never been responded to and point out that it's been waaaay over nine hours since those questions were posted ;)

btw, check yr inbox later on. I have to talk at you about something...

Violet...

[newyorican]

2. If you insist on a comment...

while doubting any genuine empathy for Palestinians is at the root of this topic, I have some food for thought from a scholar named Dr. Israel Shahak. It speaks to the killing of collaborators:

Letter to the editor by Prof. Israel Shahak, published on 19 May 1989 in Kol Ha'ir, Jerusalem.

As one who himself lived through the Holocaust, first in Warsaw then in Bergen-Belsen, I will give an immediate example of the total ignorance of daily life during the Holocaust. In the Warsaw ghetto, even during the period of the first massive extermination (June to October 1943), one saw almost no German soldiers. Nearly all the work of administration, and later the work of transporting hundreds of thousands of Jews to their deaths, was carried out by Jewish collaborators. Before the outbreak of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (the planning of which only started after the extermination of the majority of Jews in Warsaw), the Jewish underground killed, with perfect justification, every Jewish collaborator they could find. If they had not done so the Uprising could never have started.

<snip>

Therefore, if we knew a little of the truth about the Holocaust, we would at least understand (with or without agreeing) why the Palestinians are now eliminating their collaborators. That is the only means they have if they wish to continue to struggle against our limb-breaking regime.

Kind regards,



Source

This LTE, also speaks for itself. Though some may not like the message.

[QueerJustice]

4. if you do not respect the lives of your own people...

What hope is there....If my people showed such disregard for my own peoples lives I would loose my passion...If I as a Jew and not necessarily an Israeli someday were stuck with 25 bloodthirsty anti-Semites in Entebbe I would hope for rescue by Israel because I sure as Hell know the South African marines were not on their way to rescue me...

[Djinn]

22. don't be so pious

collaborators have always been shot, the jewish resistance in WW2 also shot spies and collaborators, pre Israeli Zionists blew up hundreds of people on a boat rather than have it leave for Mauritius, and killed fellow jews in hundreds of attacks, how much care and concern did that demonstrate?

how much "concern" for Vanunu did Israel have when they put him in solitary confinement for 20 years? and now that he's served his TOTAL sentence he is still basically under house arrest?

What would YOU do with collaborators in the same situation? take down their names/contact details and wait to prosecute them when you eventually have a nation??

[QueerJustice]

28. maybe...

But would not kill them...especially not in any barbaric way.

[Djinn]

29. so what would you do

spend the very limited money a guerilla organisation has on building a big jail hahahahahahaha

I'll agree on the torture, unneccesary and brutal for the sake of it.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

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[newyorican]

6. So there...

were no Jewish collaborators?

So they were not killed outright when discovered by Jewish resistance?

Was this "nutjob" not present in the Warsaw Ghetto?

Did he not witness what he describes?

Does this provide any insight to the present situation?

A convenient canard, this accusation of "self-hating". As if one can toss in the air and walk away from any valid point made. A rather craven debating technique. Shame.

[drdon326]

8. So much to say......so little time.lol

craven debating techique ??

Interesting you compare the history of the Holocaust with I/P. That is a form of denial. Where are Palestinians loaded into cattle cars and driven to crematoriums? Great debating technique.

Does this provide any insight to the present situation?

yes it does!!! But only to your past posts on I/P which others can comment on.

Interesting replies to the "article" Care to speak to the actual topic ?

now who said that little bit of wisdom...oh....YOU!!go figure.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x85701

newyorican.....Psst, it's about the cold blooded murder of alot of innocent palestinians at the hands of a bunch of their own terrorists ...


in this case its the murder of a mentally challenged man who probably couldnt even defend himself verbally...let alone any other way.

[Scurrilous]

9. Rough times for the mentally challenged...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/DB4D719B-BE0D-44C7-B6FC-6643C9C2EC13.htm

Israelis kill handicapped Palestinian

<snip>

"A mentally handicapped Palestinian man has died after being shot by Israeli soldiers in the southern Gaza Strip, hospital sources said.

Ibrahim al-Shawas, 36, died on Saturday after being shot in the head near Khan Yunus on Friday, they said. Witnesses said he was approaching a border fence near the town when a shot rang out from the Israeli side.

Aljazeera reported that al-Shawas was on his way to his farm when he was shot and killed."

[drdon326]

10. Interesting...

i searched google and couldnt find any other article on this.

The article by Aljazeera was particularly lacking in facts...which imho is not too surprising.

Any other article on this in any other source?...one with more info ?

[Scurrilous]

11. Israeli Troops Kill Palestinian Man in Gaza-Medics

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=1312&e=7&u=/nm/20050129/wl_nm/mideast_violence_dc_2

<snip>

"The Israeli army shot and killed a Palestinian man in the Gaza Strip Saturday, medics said.

It was the fourth killing in the past week in the West Bank and Gaza where violence has largely abated since Mahmoud Abbas was elected Palestinian president earlier this month.

Witnesses said the 35-year-old man, who was said by local residents to be mentally retarded, approached the Israel-Gaza border fence near the town of Khan Younis and was shot by troops on the Israeli side of the border.

An Israeli military source said the army was unaware of any such incident Saturday."

[drdon326]

12. First, let me thank you for finding another article.......

my computer reasearch ability is obviously lacking.

Unfortuntatly the yahoo article added even less.

IF true I will condemn it....but the now famous "witnesses" doesnt give me a great deal of confidence.

[Scurrilous]

13. No problem. If I can find an article...

...with more info, I'll post it.

[Djinn]

25. why is the standard of proof different

you only have "witnesses say" from the collaborator stories as well, this particular one is a report by people who spoke to apparent witnesses, yet the same standard isn't acceptable to condemn the criminal acts of Israeli's only Palestinians?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[pelsar]

16. newyorican.....

its ok to say the palestenians did a bad thing, without reservations. In fact its a good think when societies have to face up to their problems.

and it will be even a better thing when palestenians and their supporters can condem these things without reservations ....like the palestenians human rights organizations....and it will be good for israelis to see it too.

[drdon326]

17. You a betting man, pelsar ??

juuuuust wondering.

[pelsar]

18. eternal optimist....

i seem to have this unshakable belief, despite evidence to the contrary, that if we could get past the BS, see things as they are, talk truthfully about our own warts as well, then theres a chance to communicate, talk, and "work out our differences"

....but then again I'm a pretty competent with automatic weapons....

[drdon326]

19. Hey...i'm with you.

Speak softly and carry a big-ass uzi.

no problem here.

[Djinn]

23. what would YOU do

seriously, pelsar, QJ, don?? Collaborators get people killed, what would be your recommendation?

If this guy is intellectually disabled then I'm not defend this particular incident but do you think he had any less cupability than the three year olds a certain IDF captain insists had to be shot? Why is that 3 year olds are "colateral damage" if not outright accused of carrying bombs in their nappies - but someone killed by the Palestinians is ALWAYS a demonstration of the brutality of ALL Palestinians, "proving" in the words of one poster, "they don't deserve a country"

Should the Jewish resistance have let Nazi collaborators off with a bit of a lecture? Should the ANC have just forgiven those who betrayed them and subsequently had apartheid fighters jailed and killed?

Oh and BTW - it'd be nice to see and end to murder and mayhem and a taking of resposnibility for crimes ON BOTH SIDES of the debate...or is it only Palestinians that have to?

[pelsar]

26. Djinn.....

with the palestenians... a lot of the killings is not "collaborators, its internal revenge, somtimes crimes, etc. and its going to happen, just as rape happens.

What I would like to see is precisly what happens when the IDF officer killed the 13yr old, or what we have "breaking the silence"....at the very least a public discussion about it within the palestenian society, irrelevant of israel. If you want to compare then compare.....(without blaming us for "causing it-responsability for ones actions)

where are the palestenians talk shows, interviews with the "man in the street" the public outcry.....where are the intl HR organizations screaming for it to stop? Where is the Hague?
Wheres the "left"?..if israel is under a microscope..why not the palestenians?

Thats whats missing, a society will have its warts, thats natural, the palestenian society wants us to look at them as a potential neighbor...we're nervous about it. We would like to see a society that adheres to some basic western values for its own society, and that is reasonable.

but your not comparing the samethings....have a palestenian child/person killed by a soldier from a distance etc is far different then torturing a person and leaving the body for all to see, or dragging the bodies in the streets, in terms of societies.

one is upclose and personal and requires a very ugly mindset, the other is the mindset of a combat soldier fighting an enemy within a civilian area....

[Djinn]

30. nice try pelsar

"have a palestenian child/person killed by a soldier from a distance etc is far different then torturing a person and leaving the body for all to see, or dragging the bodies in the streets, in terms of societies."

how about walking up to a 13 year you've already shot an incapacitated and filling her body with bullets AT POINT BLANK RANGE, what's that? collateral damage?

If Palestinians had a nation then I would expect them to deal with criminals in the same way as Israel does (although I'd perfer them to charge people with murder rather than "incorerctly discharging a weapon" or some other suc euphemism. Until they have that they'll no doubt use methods used by guerilla/resistance groups for a long time (just like the Jewish resistance to the Nazi's)

True some collaborators are falsely accused, but some Palestinians are "accidently" shot or killed in "targeted" assasinations, Israel seems OK with those deaths

[pelsar]

31. djnn....you seem to ignore the point....

you telll me, where is that officer today vs where is the killers of the tortured man?
and who reported on the officer and who on the palesteniain?


in case you missed the whole point of the PA setting up an infrastructure for a state was for them to get used to using "rules of society-it doesnt come in an instant....they have TODAY courts, lawyers, a parliment, a prime minister etc....why are you excusing them of having the responsability....

quite the opposite by giving them a "pass" you telling them that they dont have to accept the responsabilties that go with statehood, and that is precisly our fears, that they wont understand that its time to own up to that responsabilities for good and for bad....giving them a pass with excuses doesnt do them any good.

and those killers are not a guerilla group, they are part of the PA and palestenian society..your excusing them, which you shouldnt do...an why would you?

__________________________

I dont understand, i really dont. as far as I understand your saying that "its ok that the palestenians tortured that guy for a couple of days because they are fighting the israelis....did i get that right?

and that they really dont deserved to be punished because they are fighting the israelis and the PA is not a nation yet, so even if they should be, they cant (btw-the PA has and uses it jails-when they want to)

and that torturing that person for a couple of days and it being ok because they are fighting the israelis is comparable to the israeli office who killed a 13yr old and is now on trial, turned in by his own men?

that seems to be the "jist" of it...and I really dont undestand....nor do most israelis, perhaps you can explain it to me very simply:

I apologies for being repetitious here, but my mind simply doesnt seem to be able to bridge the gap between equating torturing someone (mentally retarded at that) vs killing in a combat zone with the officer now on trial

I am not talking about whether the PA can or cannot capture the men invovled, thats a different story, i am talking about what seems to be you "excusing them"...saying that its ok because..... (that part 'boggles my mind")

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[pelsar]

34. Djnn, then explain...

I am not attempting to twist your words... and I am not trying to be offensive, I honestly do not understand......

I am trying to understand how in the same sentence (and many israelis that i know have the same problem)...one can write of the palestenians who tortured that guy and the israeli officer on trial...and imply its the samething-

or thats how we understand it...perhaps its a cultural problem, in the way we look at things and understand them, perhaps its or own sensitivity....I dont understand the "pass" that is given to the palestenians

so explain ...dont run away..

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[drdon326]

38. lol

I'm tired of having circular arguments with you gimel it's pointless

are you ever wrong.


oh, btw, gimel says hello.

[Djinn]

39. oops

"typo" I guess I got a flashback - what with reposnding to the same ol crap over and over again :evilgrin:

[drdon326]

47. Suuuuuuuuuure.....

that happens all the time. Riiiiiiiight.:eyes:

[Djinn]

49. did you wanna say something don

or was that just you emoting

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[pelsar]

40. djnn...

thats what communication is all about... and no i dont speak for all israelis, I am however quite typical of quite a few of us.....educated politically a bit to the left, professional.....and we dont understand much of what is written....your comments being quite typical.

so perhaps take some of that energy and explain ...your comments that I twist words, is for me more of attempting to put them in context of my environment. Your defining is not the way I see it.....

case in point is the 13 yr old girl and the tortured palesteniain in the same sentence....I dont get it

why do you have a problem with trying?

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[pelsar]

43. but its not pointless..

how about this....instead of commenting on an article or event. etc...I'll ask a question...or you can ask me...in that respect there will be a direct response....thats not going "round and round"..thats talking directly....

btw I've had far more conversations with palestenians who were far more willing to understand and talk to "the other side" that it seems you are...they understood as do I that only through direct conversation and explanation of how we think do get anywhere.......

[Djinn]

48. for some odd reason

me explaining why I do not wish to converse with you is deleted.

I do not appreciate you always twisting what is said and demanding answers to strawmen.

this has nothing to do with not "understanding israelis" but that IS a classic example of why I dislike your posts - I say I do not like having my words twisted and YOU claim that proves I have no "patience" for Israelis, you also say I "excuse" the people who tortured this guy when I did absolutely nothing of the sort (although that accusation remains up mmm)

Gee can't imagine why I'd view talking with you as pointles

[pelsar]

50. djnn....

if i am twisting your words.......then I am open to hearing what exactly I am doing.....I just think I am attempting to place them in context of how I read them and interpet them. Its not out of malice its out of a genuine different interpretation.

when people write things, the way they write them, means different things to different people, it involves not just personalities but cultures as well. Sometime it takes patience to find out what it is that is not being "passed on properly" and what isnt. But that also requires/desires a need to understand....

(that explains the language of lawyers, which have to be very precise with an exact set of rules, to eliminate misinterpertation.)

[Djinn]

51. twisting my words?

please provide quote where I said I "excuse" this act as stated by you in a previous post.

[pelsar]

32. one final point..

if your going to compare...a better comparison would be the PA to the prestate Hagana and not jews fighting nazis, there are far better parallels with that then that of the jewish resistance in WWII (in fact there is virtually nothing to compare of the jewish resistance....)

[pelsar]

27. and...

unlike the ANC, the resistance during WWII , the palestenians HAVE a society, a court system....lawyers, etc

they have no excuse, nor should anybody excuse them, for not using them-thats what its all about.

[Jim Sagle]

42. Shahak ain't nuthin' but self-hating shit. Fuck'm.

[newyorican]

44. See post #6....

And in case there is some confusion....

Main Entry: cra·ven
Pronunciation: 'krA-v&n
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English cravant
1 archaic : DEFEATED, VANQUISHED
2 : lacking the least bit of courage : contemptibly fainthearted
synonym see COWARDLY
- craven noun
- cra·ven·ly adverb
- cra·ven·ness /-v&n-n&s/ noun

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=craven

Note to Mods: This word is only a description of the debating technique and not intended as a personal attack.

[drdon326]

7. Pathologic

Noubani's hands were tied to his back and he was hung naked on an olive branch. He was tortured sadistically and forced to admit that he was a "collaborator.It said Noubani was beaten severely and the kidnappers extinguished cigarettes on his body. After the gunmen tortured him for two days, they left him half dead.

The sheer brutality by these "murderers" is beyond words....Forcing a mentally challenged person, without any legal or physical protection , to admit to being "collaborator" and then torturing him until he died....same as what they did to the two israeli policman who were captured then macerated and brutalized.

Anywhere else this would be condemned to hell....except these murderous terrorists get a pass without a wimper....or worse.

There is a special place in hell for murdering a mentally challenged person.

[Djinn]

24. If there is a hell then yes you're probably right

there no doubt is a place for those who torture ANYONE let alone someone like this man.

i'd suggest though that it is also peopled that beleive it is EVER justifiable to suggest shooting "anything that moves even a three year old" before filling a child's body with bullets at point blank range.

it may be that in their final (non resting) place certain Israeli's and certain Palestinians will finally be as one.

[drdon326]

14. PHRMG - Brothers against brothers – another horrific case

The Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group (PHRMG) is urgently drawing your attention to the killing of 36-year old mentally disordered Mohammad Murshed al-Noubani. In the middle of January 2005 al-Noubani was tortured to death by a group of Palestinian gunmen who claimed to be members of Fatah, the party of the recently elected Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas.

PHRMG has learned from human rights activists in the area of the disgraceful death of al-Noubani, but so far no information has appeared in the media. He was kidnapped from his village Deir Ghassaneh near Ramallah in the West Bank in January by militants of Fatah who accused al-Noubani of being a collaborator with Israel. His hands were tied to his back and he was hung naked to an olive branch. He was tortured sadistically and thereby forced to admit that he was a collaborator with the Israelis. He was beaten severely and the perpetrators extinguished cigarettes on the body of al-Noubani. After the militants tortured him for two days, they left him half dead. Al-Noubani was transferred to hospital, where he passed away.

Al-Noubani left behind a wife, three young children and ailing parents. His family was not only deeply hurt by the death of al-Noubani, but was also disgraced by pamphlets issued by the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades which stated that al-Noubani was accused of being a traitor. However, shortly thereafter the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades issued new pamphlets denying the accusation. Al-Noubani’s kids don’t want to go to school anymore, since they will be seen as children of a traitor. Moreover al-Noubani’s wife is worrying how to prove her husband’s innocence. The family of al-Noubani is refusing to bury his body in an attempt to put pressure on the Palestinian Authority to take action. PHRMG believes it is very important that the accusation of collaboration and torture of al-Noubani is investigated thoroughly that and his name is cleared.

This is however not the first case of killing of collaborators. According to PHRMG’s statistics 99 suspected collaborators have been murdered since the beginning of the Al-Aqsa Intifada. Besides that more than 200 Palestinians have been killed by gunfire by their Palestinian brothers.

PHRMG is urgently calling upon the PA and especially upon Mr. Abbas as the newly elected president to pay serious attention to the internal Palestinian chaos and killings of Palestinians by their own brothers and in particular to this specific case. Torture should be prevented at all times and it is essential that cases of torture are investigated in depth and that perpetrators are punished accordingly. The PA must put a halt to torture and killings of suspected collaborators within Palestinian society.

http://www.amin.org/eng/uncat/2005/jan/jan272.html

not exactly a pro-israel site.

[Darranar]

15. This is a disgusting atrocity. n/t