We killed police for revenge, Israeli soldiers confess

[newyorican]

Two Israeli soldiers have come forward to describe how they took part in what they say was an officially ordered "revenge" operation to kill Palestinian police officers ­ among them several unarmed men.

In graphic testimony, one soldier has confessed that he "really enjoyed" a chase in which he shot an unarmed Palestinian in the head who was trying to escape during a series of reprisal raids ordered the day after the killing of six Israeli soldiers in an ambush by militant gunmen three years ago.

In what may be the first inside account of such an operation, the soldiers from two reconnaissance units say they were among troops ordered by their commanders to "liquidate" the police officers at a series of Palestinian West Bank checkpoints even though they were given no evidence they had been involved in the killing of the Israelis.

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IDF soldiers "enjoying" the cold-blooded murder of innocent, unarmed Palestinians? I find that hard to believe.

[Behind the Aegis]

1. Not hard to believe at all

There are sickos all over the place. I am sure they are in the same company as those who think they will rewarded for blowing up buses and disco techs. Revenge is a motivating factor on BOTH sides.

[mike_c]

2. I'm sorry, but collective punishment and reprisal killing...

...is just not the same as struggling against a brutal occupation by people who took your family's home a generation ago, destroy your home today whenever it suits them, kill your children on a whim, and grind your populace under an oppressive apartheid regime. What these Israelis did was perfectly in keeping with the general idea that palestinians are equivalent to game animals or livestock that can be killed for sport.

[Behind the Aegis]

3. This was reprisal killing

They killed six officers for six officers. The cycle has to stop, and it shouldn't matter what side. And, Israel is not an "apartheid regime." That term gets slung about quite a bit, and it's not very accurate. The idea that some Israelis see Palestinians as "animals" is no less repulsive than the Palestinians who think the same of all Jews.

[Englander]

4. 'And, Israel is not an "apartheid regime."'

So stop saying that..! ;-)

/boudelang.

[Coastie for Truth]

5. Just like New York's finest (NYPD)

just like the LAPD, just like the Phildaelphia PD, just like the Chicago PD, just like the DEA, and yes - I agree with the NRA on this - the ATF (Ruby Ridge, Waco) - cops are cops.

[Colorado Blue]

7. Excuse me, but "animals?" Do you have ANY IDEA what is

being preached and taught about Jews in the Middle East?

Not that this is new. Here:

Islamic claims that certain Jews had been transformed into lowly animals
Al-Jahiz (d. 869), a ninth century Islamic zoologist and belles-lettriste who authored The Book of Animals, writes that the mouse, cheetah, eel, white ant (termite), and lizard were originally sinful Jews. (See Al-Jahiz, Omar bin Bahar, Kitab Al-Hayawan. Cairo: Mustafa Al-Bai Al-Halabi and sons (1943), Col. I, p. 309.)

Qur'an 7:163 says that God told a group of Sabbath-breakers living by the sea "Be ye apes, despised and rejected" to punish them for breaking the Sabbath. This verse (interpreted to mean that they were turned into apes) is sometimes used by hostile groups to mock the Jews, on the grounds that these must have been Jews, since the Sabbath is a commandment which (according to Islam) God demanded of Jews but not of his other followers. Thus Hamas says:

"Allah did not mete out the punishment of transformation on any nation except the Jews. The significance of it is actual change in the appearance of the Jew and perfect transformation from human to bestial condition... from human appearance to the form of genuine apes, pigs, mice, and lizards..." (Source: The Hamas monthy publication Falastin Al-Muslima (London), September 1996, series of articles by Ibrahim Al-'Ali, pp. 54-55.)

Similarly, the following quotes are excerpted from a sermon broadcast on Palestinian TV by Dr. Mustafa Najem, Dec. 6, 2002:

"The Jews...are the brothers of monkeys and pigs...Allah has warned us against their evil and their arrogance, and has said: 'You will find that the most brazen among mankind, with hatred towards the believers, are the Jews and the Idolaters.' ...The Jews are Jews, and we are forbidden to forget their character traits even for a moment, even for a blink of an eye. O Servants of Allah! The Jews are those who tried to murder your Prophet in order to expunge the call (to Islam)....Prayer and blessing to the Imam of the Jihad fighters, Mohammed, who waged a Jihad against the Jews...The Jews...are Idolaters, heretics, whose faith is false."
In the Islamic Aghlabid dynasty (9th through 11th century, North Africa) Jews were forced to wear a patch that had an image of a monkey, and were also forced to affix said image to their homes. (For Christians, the image was of a pig.) (F. Viré, "Kird," Encyclopedia of Islam, Second Edition.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_anti-Semitism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_antisemitism

There are LOTS more links if you're interested. I can provide some. Just ask.

Do you not think sentiments like this have had and continue to have, a direct impact on the violence in the region?

[manic expression]

9. Very true...

People are quick to rationalize this disgusting action but then turn around and scold a Palestinian who took up arms against the state that has been oppressing them and their people.

You are right: Fighting against an oppressive force is justified, while murdering people for revenge and fun is base and wrong. The Nazis said the EXACT same thing about the Jewish Partisans, and it seems Israel has emulated them.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. Also true...

People are quick to defend terrorism as a viable method of expression. "Terrorists" attack unarmed civilians. "Freedom fighters" attack the military, its interests, and armed resistance.

What these soldiers did is inexcusable!!! But, in my mind, it is just as inexcusable as blowing up a disco! It is as inexcusable as comparing Israel to the Nazis!

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

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[Colorado Blue]

20. Excuse me, but that is so unfair. Apart from the unfortunate

references to Nazi Germany, which are deeply offensive, the genesis of this violence was in the '20's. Before that, Jewish people in Islamic regions lived in a condition known as "dhimmitude" - definitely second class status. One might even call it apartheid, and sporadic violence occurred over the centuries. Jewish lands were stolen and Jews were thrust forth altogether from Saudi Arabia.

I'm putting a link to Wikipedia below, so you can please read about this long-running conflict in modern times.

Also it might be helpful to realize that Jewish people have lived in this region for millenia and that a large percentage of Israel's population is made up of Middle Eastern Jews, who were expelled from their homes after 1948. Their numbers amounted to some 900,000 people and most lost everything - homes, businesses, their synagogues - the works. Many were killed.

The violence has been nurtured by many factors, not the least of which is hideous antisemitism, and that is being taught in schools and also widely preached. Moreover, the violence most certainly has been a two way street - after countless acts of murder, 5 wars, decades of terror and Israeli retaliation there is no shortage of blame to go around.

The most upsetting aspect of the RECENT violence is that fact that it INCREASED just after the Oslo Accords. Even Arab scholars put the blame for THAT on Yasser Arafat. Israeli death tolls rose steeply and so did the retaliation. Israeli fears for security have led directly to road blocks and other indignities, some far, far worse.

And, of course, there is the refusal of Arafat either to accept the statehood offered or even to negotiate for a different one.

As for Israelis not caring about Arab people - that's just a very biased stereotypical statement. It simply isn't true. If you read Ha'aretz, the Israeli paper, you will see article after article, editorial after editorial, about the need to respect Arab rights and improve Arab living conditions. Israel has gotten together with a group of other contributors, to help poor Palestinians with monthly stipends.

Moreover, Israel, P.A. and Jordan are working together on a huge water/electrical/desalinization project. The Gaza withdrawal is scheduled to go forward as planned. West Bank withdrawals will follow. Israel is hurting her own citizens in order to accomplish this. Many believe they shouldn't be forced to leave their homes: as Israel is home to Arabs, why should the OT, which includes areas of ancient and continuous Jewish habitation, be Judenrein?

And, of course, the security issues are still a major problem. There is a great deal of opinion, among left wing scholars even, that a Palestinian state will simply be used to attack Israel.

So you see, it isn't at all a simple, one-sided problem.

Here is the link to Wikipedia and other pertinent I/P threads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Israeli_conflict

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x93049

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x93017

[centristo]

6. oh by the way....

"The Palestinian Authority, which denied Israeli charges at the time that members of its security forces were complicit in attacks against Israelis, has since acknowledged that many of the men have moonlighted as militants."

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050603/2005-06-03T071554Z_01_N03231854_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-MIDEAST-REVENGE-DC.html

What they did was inexcusable, but let's present all of the facts. An eye for an eye will leave us all blind....

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[Coastie for Truth]

10. TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

Cops are cops are cops everywhere.

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

Why should Isreali cops (even soldiers "socialized" to cop duty) be different from cops anywhere else.

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

Oakland Night Riders

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

Philadelphia Police Chief and Mayor Frank Rizzo

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

Bull Connor

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

J. Edgard Hoover

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

Mark Fuhrman

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

San Francisco Police Chief Alex Fagan (and Son Patrolman Alex Fagan Jr)

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

Pensylvania Corrections Office Charles Grainer (Abu Gharib)

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

Bernie Kurick

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

Most cops don't have MSW degrees, and are not characterized by liberal values.

(Yes - I know, Alex Fagan's replacement, Heather Fong, has an MSW degree--- aren't too many pacifist, MSW cops, and she's Gavin Newsom's SF Police Chief - nuff said)

[manic expression]

11. There is quite a difference

between 'not having liberal values' and cold-blooded murder. Actually, a huge difference.

[Coastie for Truth]

12. Step Out Of The Car Please, Sir

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

COPS ARE COPS ARE COPS ARE COPS ARE COPS

Israeli, Palestinian, American, whatever, wherever

COPS ARE COPS ARE COPS ARE COPS ARE COPS

Doesn't excuse. Just explains. Society picks certainly personality types - gives them badges, guns, tasers, hand cuffs, batons, authority.

Israeli, Palestinian, American, whatever, wherever

COPS ARE COPS ARE COPS ARE COPS ARE COPS

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

[manic expression]

13. Please...

One can wear a badge and NOT MURDER PEOPLE FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN REMOVED REVENGE.

TO MURDER AND OPPRESS. THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE EXCUSING. TRY NOT TO BE AN APOLOGIST FOR MURDER, AND MAYBE YOU'LL GET SOMEWHERE.

[Coastie for Truth]

14. COP ARE COPS

You are right that "One can wear a badge and NOT MURDER PEOPLE FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN REMOVED REVENGE." - but some cops are bad apples. And police work (and insurgent interrogation) attracts a certain personality type.

You stated "TO MURDER AND OPPRESS. THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE EXCUSING. TRY NOT TO BE AN APOLOGIST FOR MURDER, AND MAYBE YOU'LL GET SOMEWHERE." I am NOT excusing it - I am reporting it - and I am saying it goes on with cops - I do not even spare my own community - Northern California.

I could say that you are excusing the Oakland Night Riders -- and Frank Rizzo - and J. Edgar Hoover - and Bull Connor -- and Mark Fuhrman -- and Rudi Giuliani cops -- and Bernie Kerick --- and focusing only on Israeli cops. But, I do not say that.

I pulled no punches - Oakland - San Francisco (Bad Boys in Blue in the Bluest Communities in the Bluest, Most Liberal state in the US)


COPS ARE COPS - everywhere, anywhere, any time. Police work draws a certain personality type - everywhere in the world. We give them guns, we give them batons, we give them tasers, we give them life and death power over ourselves, we give them the power to create an arrest record - and some cops are bad. Most cops are good - thank God.

1. COPS ARE COPS

2. COPS ARE COPS

3. COPS ARE COPS

4. COPS ARE COPS

5. - and they were guilty.COPS ARE COPS

6. COPS ARE COPS

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[manic expression]

18. As I rephrase....

DO NOT TRY TO JUSTIFY AN INJUSTICE WITH ANOTHER INJUSTICE. It cannot be done. PERIOD.

I do not care if every cop in every country was corrupt, it would do nothing to lessen the disgusting actions here.

Do not try to rationalize this in any way, you will only end up excusing inexcusable actions. Such actions are wrong in every way.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[newyorican]

21. To Quoue...

is no defense. It is an admission of guilt and moral relativism, all rolled up into a single statement.

[eyl]

22. Since no one else seems to have brought it up

it looks like it falls to me.

What everyone on this thread seems to be missing is that the Palestinian "police" are, for all intents and purposes, the PA's military forces; and the PA was involved in, effectively, a war against Israel. If, as I've seen stated on this board by several posters, attacks on IDF troops are not terrorism, well, that cuts both ways.

[Scurrilous]

23. When everything is permissible

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/584666.html

<snip>

"It is impossible to ignore the article published in Maariv over the weekend, which stated that on the night between February 19 and 20, 2002, Israel Defense Forces soldiers, acting under explicit orders, carried out untargeted killings in which 15 Palestinian policemen were shot to death at three checkpoints.

In the article, by Chen Cottes-Bar and Omri Asenheim, soldiers related that the nighttime operation was hastily planned in response to the killing of six soldiers earlier that evening at the Ein Ariq checkpoint. Soldiers from the combat engineering and paratrooper corps were gathered together at 11 P.M. and given a short briefing by their commanders. The targets were marked in black ink on pieces of cardboard, and the soldiers were told to go out that very night to checkpoints manned by Palestinian Authority policemen, to lie in ambush for the policemen and kill any who came by.

This is an order that seems, prima facie, to be illegal, and according to members of the Breaking the Silence group, it was not the only one of its kind. And it was issued not in a state of war between two countries, each with an army, but in a complex situation of belligerent occupation."

<snip>

"In 1991, Colonel Yehuda Meir was convicted of sending a group of soldiers to break the arms and legs of Palestinians who had been rounded up in the villages of Hawara and Beita. Even though these Palestinians were selected from lists drawn up by the Shin Bet security service, rather than randomly, as they were in the present case, the court ruled that the order to abuse people who did not constitute any threat was blatantly illegal.

During the second intifada, the army has put very few soldiers and officers on trial, and it seems as if all restraints have been removed. Moshe Ya'alon's decision of half a year ago, to set up a task force to investigate the IDF's norms of combat, still exists solely on paper. The regrettable and frightening conclusion that IDF soldiers are liable to draw from this is that everything is permissible."