Religion, suicide terrorism link disputed in book

[bemildred]

Not precisely I/P, but it seems relevant and likely to "migrate".

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A surge in suicide attacks in Iraq and elsewhere around the world is a response to territorial occupation and has no direct link with Islamic fundamentalism, according to the author of a new book who has created a database of such bombings over the past 25 years.

Robert Pape, associate professor of political science at the University of Chicago, said most suicide terrorists were well-integrated and productive members of their communities from working-class or middle-class backgrounds.

---

"Islamic fundamentalism is not the primary driver of suicide terrorism," Pape said. "Nearly all suicide terrorist attacks are committed for a secular strategic goal -- to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory the terrorists view as their homeland."

"Yes, it's true we're killing terrorists day by day, but the real measure of suicide terrorism is simply the number of attacks," said Pape. "The problem with suicide terrorism is that it's not supply limited, it's demand-driven."

MyWay

[pelsar]

1. heres its ideology....

this conflict is far more complex and involves both religion + ideology. I suspect the methods used to convince the potential suicide bomber here would depend upon his own psych:

"..Muslim suicide terror against Jews is only possible if the potential terrorists are won to an ideology which includes a) the belief that killing Jews is the highest good and b) the belief that people who kill Jews by blowing themselves up will be rewarded by Allah in heaven."

http://emperors-clothes.com/gilwhite/gil2nomap.htm

a lot of research has been done here on "what makes a suicide bomber".....the one common thread behind the hamas/jihad etc is that its not random, its a systematic system that searches, finds, potential victims, isolates them, does the final brainwashing, sends them out wih an advisor until they let him/her go.

though it sure isnt P/C a more pertinent line would be looking into islamic/arab culture... muslim suicide bombers seem to have the record (tamil tigers were big on it as well....), but then i dont believein closing one eyes to cultural differences as they affect our thought processes, behaviors and subsequent actions.....(and I dont mean the differences in the way we "drink our tea")

[bemildred]

2. Mr. Pape says:

"Religion is often used as a tool by terrorist organizations in recruiting and in seeking aid from abroad, but is rarely the root cause” of suicide attacks. “Understanding that suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation rather than a product of Islamic fundamentalism has important implications for how the United States and its allies should conduct the war on terrorism,” wrote Pape."

He is saying that religion is used as a tool, but is not the driving
force, which seems obvious to me. All armies use religion, but mostly
they fight over land and resources and stuff like that.

[pelsar]

3. religion...

“Understanding that suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation rather than a product of Islamic fundamentalism"

islam is unlike christianity as its a complete way of life, it purposly blurs the line between the nation politics and religion. Hence national wars that involve arab nations must invoke islam as an integral part of it.....(so too do western countries but not as intensly for obviouse reasons...but

the question is if islamic fundamentialism creates the mindset for suicide bombers....i think its rather foolish to ignore the greater numbers of sucide bombers than can be found within islam than in other societies and religions.

[bemildred]

4. Please see this thread for further contributions to this debate:

Repeating endlessly that Islam is different from other religions,
while politically convenient, does not make it so.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1522605#1522919

[pelsar]

6. i am familiar with it

using the tamil tigers as the explaination that not all suicide bombings are based in islam is simply showing the exception. If you take away the tamil tigers..you are left only with islam as the "provider of suicide bombers"..and given the number of groups that are fighting various levels of occupation or whatever they defined the problem, both present and past it becomes pretty blatant, something like 86:2




AND its quite a long list and not even complete (the pre israeli groups are not even listed)....and its only the recent past at that:
it may not be P/C but something is "going on"...




Irish Nationalists (Ulster)
• Irish Republican Army (IRA) (1916-present) **
• Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) (1969-present)
? Splinter group of the 'Official' IRA.
? Supporters of the PIRA split from 'Official' Sinn Féin to form Provisional Sinn Féin. Provisional Sinn Féin was later known simply as Sinn Féin (while 'Official' Sinn Féin eventually became the Workers' Party).
? Under ceasefire since the Good Friday Agreement of 1997
? Splinter groups:
? Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) (1986-present)
? Also known as the "Continuity Army Council" and "Óglaigh na hÉireann (Gaelic for 'Volunteers of Ireland')
? Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA) (1997-present) *
? Also known as the True IRA and Óglaigh na hÉireann (Gaelic for Volunteers of Ireland).
• Irish National Liberation Army

Northern Irish Loyalists (Ulster)
• Ulster Defence Association (UDA) (1971-present) **
? Red Hand Defenders (1998-present) **
? UDA splinter group. Opposes ceasefire.
• Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) (May 1966-present)
? Very closely linked with the Red Hand Commandos (1972-present).
• Ulster Defense Force (UVP) **
• Loyalist Volunteer Force (disbanded)
• Orange Volunteers

Other nationalist terrorists
• East Turkestan Islamic Movement - Central Asia and China
• ETA (Basque Fatherland and Liberty) - Spain and southern France (founded 1959)
• Croatian Revolutionary Brotherhood - Yugoslavia (disbanded)
• Front de Libération du Quebec - Canada (founded 1963)
• Kosovo Liberation Army - (KLA)
• Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK/KADEK/KONGRA-GEL) - Turkey(disbanded)
• Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam - Sri Lanka
• Los Macheteros - Puerto Rico (founded 1976)
• National Front for the Liberation of Corsica (FLNC) - France
• Sons of Liberty - United States (disbanded)

Leftist terrorists
• Action Directe - France
• Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA) - Lebanon and Armenia
• Chukaku-Ha - Japan
• Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) - Nepal
• Earth Liberation Front (ELF) - United States
• Ejército de Liberación Nacional - Colombia
• GRAPO - Spain
• Japanese Red Army (Sekigun) - Japan
• Khmer Rouge - Cambodia (disbanded)
• Manuel Rodríguez Patriotic Front - Chile
• Montoneros - Argentina (disbanded)
• National Socialist Council of Nagaland - India
• Naxals or Naxalites - India
• NPA or New People's Army - Philippines
• Revolutionary Organization 17 November (17N) - Greece
• People's War Group - India
• Red Army Faction (popularly known as the Baader-Meinhof Gang) - Germany (founded 1967, disbanded)
• Red Brigades (Brigade Rosse) - Italy (founded 1969)
• Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) - Colombia
• Shining Path (Sendero Luminoso) - Peru (active since the late 1960s)
• Symbionese Liberation Army - USA (disbanded)
• Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA) - Peru
• United Liberation Front of Assam - India
• Weathermen - USA (founded in 1969, now disbanded)

Right-wing terrorists

Neo-Nazis and white-supremacists
• Boeremag - South Africa
• Combat 18 - United Kingdom
• Creativity Movement - USA
• Ku Klux Klan - USA (founded in 1865 and revived several times since). A tiny British KKK also came into being recently.
• National Socialist Movement - United Kingdom
• The Order - USA (disbanded)
• Organisation de l'Armée Secrète - France, Algeria (disbanded)

Non-white racist terrorists
• Army for the Liberation of Rwanda - Rwanda (Hutu emancipatory; possibly genocidal)
• Janjaweed militias - Sudan (Arab, anti-black)

Anti-Communists
• Alianza Anticomunista Argentina - Argentina
• Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia - Colombia
• Contras - Nicaragua (disbanded)
• Death squads - El Salvador
• Omega 7 - anti-Castro Cuban exile group - Florida, Cuba
• Alpha 66 - anti-Castro Cuban exile group - Florida, Cuba
• Mongoose Gang - Grenada
• Ranvir Sena - India

Others
• The Angry Brigade - United Kingdom (anarchists) (disbanded)
• Buffalo Battalion - Mozambique
• Earth First! - Many countries (radical environmentalist)
• Earth Liberation Front - USA (radical environmentalist) - claims to avoid harming people or animals, but is considered by the FBI to be a terrorist group, and vice versa
• EOKA (Ethniki Organosis Kypriakou Agonistov) - Cyprus (anti-Turkish, pro-Enosis)
• Front for the Advancement and Progress of Haiti (FRAPH) - Haiti
• Interahamwe - Rwanda
• Minuteman Project - United States (anti-immigration vigilante group)
• Mungiki - Kenya
• National Revolutionary Front for the Liberation of Haiti - Haiti
• Quantrill's Raiders led by William Quantrill - United States (pro-Confederate guerillas)
• Revolutionary United Front - Sierra Leonean rebels
• Tonton Macoutes - Haiti
• Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the nation") - South Africa


http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-militant-organizations

[CJCRANE]

7. I don't know

what techniques these other organisations use as there's not really a focus on them in the news/media, but some IRA prisoners in Northern Ireland did go on hunger strike (which is a form of suicide) for political purposes.

I have also read of incidents in African countries where rebels get high on drugs and run half-naked into battle, a sort of kamikaze-berserker tactic. So whilst the suicide-bombing meme does seem to have occured more in the Middle East, it's possible that further investigation might uncover other nihilistic tactics used in the rest of the world (which the media is currently uninterested in).

[bemildred]

8. It is not an explanation.

It is a counterexample to a false generalization, a rather
large one.

Making a long list of groups that haven't resorted to it
means nothing about why the groups that do do it. Islam has
existed for centuries and one doesn't see this method used
until around 1980, and in the context of ethnic resistance
where one side feels it is heavily outmatched. It was "invented"
around then, although "terrorist bombings" go much farther
back.

This fellow is not saying that Islam may not facilitate the
matter in some way, that is not excluded, he is saying that
that is not the proximate cause, that it is occupation and
political repression that is the motivating factor, not some
generic Islamic desire to blow oneself up in a crowd.

That said, the sentiment "Dulce et Decorum Est, Pro Patria Mori"
is ancient and everywhere, and if it bothers you to think that
these people are - in their minds - defending their people it
is nonetheless the case that that is their motivation.

---

Consider Iraq.

Before the invasion the religion was predominantly Islam.
It was politically repressed.
There was no suicide terrorism.

After the invasion the religion was predominantly Islam.
It was politically repressed.
There are almost daily suicide bombings.

What has changed? Are you going to believe that it is Islam in
Iraq that is "causing" the suicide bombings, or the occupation?
I submit that if the occupation in Iraq ends, the suicide
bombings will stop entirely or be greatly reduced immediately.

It requires a sort of deliberate foolishness to think it would
continue in an endemic sort of way because of "Islam" when the
occupation ends.

[pelsar]

9. never said it was a gene....

Occupation does not create sucide bombers....otherwise we would see them in west sahara, in tibet, in lebanon (up to recently), Ireland, etc

but i am saying that its linked to the islamic culture today. That doesnt mean 100 yrs ago and it doesnt mean in the next 100 yrs....but today in the beginning of the 21st century there is a link. Once christians had a penchant for burning witches a the stake..that too was a cultural phenonom linked to christians and not to muslims.

Musims are hardly the only "peoples" being occupied today, yet you'll be hard pressed to find others who have suicide bombers...can you?

if you cant, then we certainly cant ignore the islamic factor, unless you can find another factor that is exclusive to those particular people/culture/religion


perhaps we can be more specific...islam has a penchant for suicide bombers when it doesnt like the occupier....be it israeli, americans, saudi, lebanese, turkey, russian, iraqi etc.

i repeat can you find us another cultural group today that advocates suicide bombings other than the those of islam?

[bemildred]

10. We don't seem to be getting anywhere.

There are suicide bombers where there is not Islam (Sri Lanka).
In fact, LTTE are marxist-athiest nationalists.

There are no suicide bombers where there is no political repression
of one people by another. (Well, maybe an occasional nut.)

There is always resistance where there is political repression of
one people by another, or the preception of that. But the resistance
is not always in this specific form, which is recent, "islamic
culture" or not.

Occam's razor suggests that it is better to consider all humans alike
in that they will resist attacks on their home and culture. Yet we
are supposed to believe that "islamic culture" is special in this,
somehow, and particularly inclined to give up their lives for the
cause. I submit this is contrary to simple observation, anywhere in
history, anywhere you go on the planet where cultures clash.

It is also implausible to draw conclusions about where and when one
will see this method used on the basis of the short history of it.
It's only been 25 years or so since the first occurrence. Culture
may well be a factor, the instance of Tibet is a good one, but I
see no reason to think it is the determinative factor and that
political oppression somehow has nothing to do with it. That seems
to me to be Prof. Pape's point too.

[pelsar]

11. it takes time..this is a slow form of communication....

i dont disagree completely that resistance shows up when there is political repression (not always...)..and I do consider all humans have similar traits....but i also see differences in cultures. Your saying

"I submit this is contrary to simple observation, anywhere in
history, anywhere you go on the planet where cultures clash."

I dont understand that ...what simple observation?

are you talking about suicide bombers specifically or a more general armies that fight where soliders understand that they may die? Because I definitly differentiate....as do all soldiers. If not we would not even consider taking prisoners or arresting people, since all may commit sucide and take us with them- the assumption is that they are not.

why is it implausible to draw conclusions of the last 25 years? who made that up?...I think we can, and in fact my life depends upon conclusions drawn from the past 25 years.

given the data we have how can you NOT draw a link between political opression (real or preceived), suicide bombings and islam. In fact a most telling place is the india/pakistan off and on conflict...the area in question is a middle ground if you will and only one group is using suicide bombers....guess which one?

how about the opposite, is there a conflict where islam is involved and they are not using suicide bombers? (I actually dont know the answer to this one)

[bemildred]

12. Eh, OK, I'll give it one more shot.

i dont disagree completely that resistance shows up when there is political repression (not always...)..and I do consider all humans have similar traits....but i also see differences in cultures. Your saying

"I submit this is contrary to simple observation, anywhere in
history, anywhere you go on the planet where cultures clash."
I dont understand that ...what simple observation?

Anywhere you go where there is political repression of one culture
by another there is always violent resistance. Ireland, Kenya,
VietNam, it's all the same. The American slaves NEVER as a class
accepted their inferior status, they always continued to rebel,
revolt, resist. So the point of invoking Occam's Razor is to say:
why introduce a special case for Islam to explain behavior
that occurs everywhere, all you really have is the recent technical
innovation of the bomb belt, and the car bomb with driver, and
that requires no explanation at all, it's a very cheap and effective
method, it's driving us nuts in Iraq.

The core point I'm trying to make is that there is nothing
special to be explained by the appeal to some special trait of
Islam. And this is not, of course, to say that Islam is not as
different as any other belief system, it is different in detail,
but it is utterly the same category of things as other human
religions. And the resistance of the Palestinians is utterly in the
same category as the resistance of oppressed peoples anywhere you
go in geography or history, with some allowance for local details
thrown in, and that is what Occam's Razor says should be the default
assumption, that is that it's just like anywhere else.

are you talking about suicide bombers specifically or a more general armies that fight where soliders understand that they may die? Because I definitly differentiate....as do all soldiers. If not we would not even consider taking prisoners or arresting people, since all may commit sucide and take us with them- the assumption is that they are not.

I'm not saying that all fighters are willing and eager to die
for the cause, I'm saying that it is "normal" for some to be, and
that the larger the felt threat, the more willingness to die you
will see. The Kamikaze in Japan are another example.

why is it implausible to draw conclusions of the last 25 years? who made that up?...I think we can, and in fact my life depends upon conclusions drawn from the past 25 years.

The argument would be that with a new technical innovation one
must allow time to see where and when it will and will not be
accepted. It originated in Lebanon and migrated to Sri Lanka,
where it was used widely. Why assume that it will stop with those
occurrences or with those cultures? On what evidence other than
that "it hasn't happened yet"? I think you will see it more and
more as time goes on in all sorts of places. All we know of Tibet
is they haven't picked it up yet.

given the data we have how can you NOT draw a link between political opression (real or preceived), suicide bombings and islam. In fact a most telling place is the india/pakistan off and on conflict...the area in question is a middle ground if you will and only one group is using suicide bombers....guess which one?

Correlation is not causation. Suicidal attacks are not new and
not restricted to Islam. One is simply seeing the spread of a new
and effective technology. The fact that it is occurring mostly in
Muslim states is an artifact of the occupation, colonization, and
repression occurring in certain Muslim areas, or formerly Muslim
areas, or areas in transition, if you like, (edit) and the process
of it's geographical spread over time.

how about the opposite, is there a conflict where islam is involved and they are not using suicide bombers? (I actually dont know the answer to this one)

You named a number. Aceh, W. Sahara, Phillipines, Kurds. I can't
swear it's never been done, and that would be counter to my main
argument anyway. Bombing is common in Kashmir, but I was not aware
that use of suiciders was. It ought to be obvious that there have
been wars including Muslims on one or both sides for over a thousand
years and this sort of thing actually has not come up a lot.

As I said, terror bombing is common as dirt in these situations, has
been since we've had explosives, and there is just the innovation of
the use of a suicider to improve the targeting to explain. And it
needs very little explanation. I don't see why you need to drag in
Islam to explain that, especially when there are numerous
counter-examples of non-Islamic use of suiciders.

Now I really must be done with this for now. Whether you agree or
not I hope you can at least see what I'm driving at.

[Lithos]

13. Suicide attacks

Which I think is better than talking about specific technology, is far from tied to Islamic countries.

The LTTE does include Muslims, but also Sinhalese Christians, so this is not purely Muslim.

Other historical users included the Japanese (Kamikaze and the Kaiten), the Viet Minh, the Japanese Red Army (The Lod Massacre).

Of course how subjective should this be? Self-sacrifice in the name of the cause has been considered a virtue from the Spartan defense at Thermopolye, the Texans at the Alamo, or Soviet airmen who deliberately flew into bridges to destroy them.

Is there much difference between the Buddhist monk who immolated himself in 1963 to protest the oppression of Buddhism in Vietnam?

L-

[bemildred]

14. Yes. I see nothing I disagree with there.

There are Muslims in Sri Lanka, they are the 3rd largest
group, so I have read, but it has been my impression from
a long but not very intense attention to the issue that
they try to stay out of the way of the argument between
the LTTE and the Government. Given LTTE's propensity for
violence and human rights violations that seems a reasonable
attitude.

LTTE seems to be having internal issues lately too.

My impression was that the conflict is between "Hindu" and
"Buddhist" groups, but I expect the religious labels won't
get you far. As I mentioned, the doctrine of LTTE is not
religious based, and the actions of the Government are about as
"Buddhist" as the actions of the US Government are "Christian".

But the fixation on suicide bombers is not mine, rather
I am (perhaps incompetently) disputing it by attempting to
point out that all you really have here is a rather low-tech
but effective technical innovation, unpleasant though it is,
that may be expected to spread when conditions are right.

[pelsar]

15. culture is constantly changing....

the main arguement seems to be that though presently muslims who resist either percieved occupation or real occupation use suicide bombers it is not exclusively "theirs."

I have no argument with that, and I am sure that the japanese culture of WWII had much in common with some traits of militant islam...and perhaps the ETA might start using suicide bombers in the future....but both are not in the present.

today in the beginning of the 21st century all the numbers point to islamic suicide bombers as being the vast majority. We dont see palestenian christians, who are living under the same conditions blowing themselves up...maybe they will one day, but so far in the last 5 yrs...not one. So too with those in Tibet and others.

Attempting to say islam is not related to it, because in the future others may also use suicide bombers it is a very strange argument....maybe others will and maybe others wont, however given the data today and in trying to figure out the why, ignoring islams influence is absurd. It also means ignoring all those speaches by imans extolling the virtures of sucide bombers, how can that be done?


btw, i actually suspect all the reseach this guy did, given this statement:

“The standard stereotype of a suicide attacker as a lonely individual on the margins of society with a miserable existence is actually quite far from the truth,” he averred.

I dont know where hes be living the last five years or so, but we've known for years the suicide bombers vary from the college grad to the mentally handicapped kid. That in fact the suicide bomber manufactuing system is quite a well oiled machine and that does not "just happen."

[bemildred]

16. That is not the argument, the argument is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1522605#1522919

"In fact, the leading instigator of suicide attacks is the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, a Marxist-Leninist group whose members are from Hindu families but who are adamantly opposed to religion." The Tamil Tigers are responsible for 75 of the 188 incidents in Pape's database. By this reckoning, atheists are responsible for more terrorist attacks than religious extremists."

He is saying that Muslims are neither the only nor the principal
proponents of it. I do agree that the bashing of introverts is
annoying.

[pelsar]

17. strange database.....

"The Tamil Tigers are responsible for 75 of the 188 incidents in Pape's database."

so what kind of database holds only 188 suicide bombings?....answer-one that doesnt includes suicide bombers that would mess up a his thesis." or one that is out of date....and consequently no longer relevant.

lets see: a couple of samples

the number of suicide attacks in Iraq has reached a record high, with more than 67 insurgents blowing themselves up in the month of April alone
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0512-04.htm

or if we go earlier in israel:
23 in 2003 compared with 42 in 2002 with the additional aspect of:
The Israeli military reported that it thwarted 209 would-be suicide bombers last year, (2003) compared with 171 in 2002 (can we count those that were stopped?)

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/research_topics/research_topics_show.htm?doc_id=220538&attrib_id=7777


but all of that is beside the point. Using the tamil tigers is not sufficient as they are located in a single geographic area and shared that cultural trait with militant islam but this, ignores all other movements that chose not to use suicide bombers, making the tigers the exception, but more than that attacks by islamic suicide bombers transcend all geographic areas, with only two apparent common denominators: real or perceived oppression + islam.



i get the impression that Pape first had his thesis and then went out to prove it, reguardless of the data involved.

[bemildred]

18. That did seem one of the weak areas to me.

There is lots of data, but good data is another thing entirely.

He also says the LTTE "invented the suicide belt", where I had
previously heard the idea attributed to the al Dawa party in
Lebanon. But arguing over who gets "credit" does not interest
me much.

Now, as the piece says, he did study 462 individual terrorists
"who completed their missions", so I don't know where the 188 comes
from, although I remember that quote. But then that is from a
Christian site which is using Pape for it's own purposes, which
I posted for mine.

But the fact that the incidence of suicide attacks has exploded
(no pun intended) subsequently in the context of Iraq and the
"Intifada" supports his thesis, rather than undermines it, and it
supports my idea that one can expect the method to spread and
grow in popularity.

Since they happen to be occurring in the Middle East I suppose
you can say it supports your "It's the Muslims" thesis too. But
I still think focussing on the bomb belt is wrong, and that suicide
attacks have a long an varied history in many cultures, and that
that is the significant point.

[pelsar]

19. bemildred....its easy....

we know that the sucide bomber is quite the "popular figure"...(lots of advertising)....so soon we shall see if it 'catches on" to other oppressed people or if it just remains within the "realm of militant islam"

sound reasonable?....stay tuned......and then we shall able to conclude our little discussion!

[bemildred]

21. It's easier that than, it's already left the "realm of militant islam".

You lose.
Denile is not just a river in Egypt, is it?

[pelsar]

23. where?

"Intifada" supports his thesis"....huh? christian arabs dont blow themselves up,druz dont, bedouin dont....its only muslim arabs who do....iraq?....samething....just muslim arabs....not kurds, not christians, not jews...just muslims.

to support his thesis (and your agreement) you have to find non muslim suicide bombers in "oppressed societies today"...

i couldnt find any....heres a list with an explanation of the character of each conflict (41 in all-and i just skimmed most of them as there is quite a bit of detail about each conflict)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/.

in reading about each conflict you will find only those conflicts that have muslims have suicide bombers (though this does not mean that all conflicts with muslims use suicide bombers), but where there is not muslims, there is not suicide bombers-according to this list (the famous tamil tigers, like the japanese kamakazis are no longer active hence are no longer part of the suicide culture of the 21st centure)

[Colorado Blue]

22. IMO there is a HUGE difference between self-sacrifice,

such as the Buddhists, the soldiers at the Alamo, the Spartans, the Soviets, and the suicide-homicide bombers who blow up innocent workers, buses, airliners, office towers and little kids and their mothers.

I sure hope that difference is visible.

[Colorado Blue]

27. I have my doubts - about the Occupation ending the attacks.

My fear is, once this sort of chaos starts, it's hard to stop.

Any government will be under attack. It will be seen as the child of the war. Also, there are outsiders there now, not just Iraqi citizens. Destabilization of the region is a goal to those who would re-establish a Pan Arabic state, or just to harm what they perceive as enemy interests.

That could mean any particular ethnic group or religious sect. Sunni vs. Shi'a, for example, isn't hard to get riled up, ditto Kurd vs. everybody else. Fundamentalist vs. secularist, feminist vs. tradionalist, adherents of Sharia law and/or traditional economic and social structures vs. those who would modernize - you see what I mean.

Anger at America and other Western interests won't stop if America leaves.

Look at Israel. Every step of forward progress on the "peace highway" has led to INCREASED VIOLENCE - it's maddening.

[CJCRANE]

5. "Going postal"...

Homicide-suicide shootings occasionally occur in Western countries, although a different method is used the result is the same.

People who "go postal" often do it out of a sense of total humiliation and revenge (e.g. Columbine), so I don't know if there's a psychological connection as to why some people in occupied countries may become like this. Might be worth looking into...

[Colorado Blue]

20. I wonder if poverty and hopelessness have something to

do with it. There are exceptions of course, like the boys from Saudi Arabia.

But I read an article recently about Morocco, about a certain slum there, which produces a disproportionate number of suicide/homicide bombers. And the Palestinian economy has sucked for ages - ditto, many across Asia have been left behind. The old pastoral and marginal farming economies wouldn't support huge numbers of people in the best of times - water is scarce, conditions are often hard and nomadism or semi-nomadism is required just to maintain livestock. Not that it was a bad way of life - but HARD.

Now, populations have boomed. AND - the modern, hi-tech and industrial cultures of Russia/Soviet Union, Western Europe, East Asia and America have introduced a whole new vision of what's possible and available - for the right price.

Perhaps, the simple confluence of Islam with these particular regions of the world, developing regions with traditional and pressured economies, is creating the problem?

In other words, it isn't Islam, or poverty, oppression or ideology - but a combination? And all of those are easily exploited.

[pelsar]

24. profling suicide bombers...

if your really interested in a serious study theres a report by the Danish Ministry of Justice
its a pdf you have to download:

just google: Profiling Islamic Suicide Terrorists A Research Report for the Danish Ministry of Justice

you will read how they are designed and manufactured by various terrorist organizations...

[Colorado Blue]

25. Thank you. I will read it. nt

[Igel]

26. Complex problem, lots of simple solutions that don't work.

One reasonable thesis is that it's peer driven. Hence the "brainwashed" business; most Muslim human detonation devices seem to gravitate to strict mosques.

But you also need an ideology that supports the idea of suicide attacks. The less important the individual is, and the more the individual believes his/her life is subservient to the collective (or Ummah), the better.

The more it offers a post-life reward, as opposed to making life better for those who continue to breathe after you've stopped, the better. Then you get teenage boys who desperately want some, but can't get any.

If it offers honor and fame and glory in this world, and does make your survivors happier, all the better. Viz teenage boys trying to be men and help their families.

A keen sense of oppression also helps as motivation. The greater the sense of overbearing injust that you inculcate in your kids, the greater the chance they'll subsume their goals to those of the collective. And run off to join the Red Brigades or run to Iraq to convert a souk into a non-halal butcher's shop. For most of the last few points, Islam and Arab culture seems to offer support; it's not the only religion, or the only culture, that offers support, but that they offer greater support than many other religions and cultures can't be reasonably denied, either.

But you also need supporters. A group of Canadian Tamils, American Irish, or jihadi-preaching imams will do to provide funds, moral support, and even supplies. If you can make this moral and material support a pillar of your religion, all the better.

And, in all of this, there are the loonies. Those who just crack and can be deemed mentally deranged. They're likely to do this kind of thing at the slightest provocation, and seek out chances to become murderers. They're noise in the data. Note that this means I'm considering most of the bombers to be rational and sane, with a coherent worldview in which their actions make sense.

[Colorado Blue]

28. I think religious bigotry is playing an enormous role. The

comments about "impurity" at the mosque really upset me and I don't see how these attitudes can be disregarded as a source of aggravation. Once "god" gets into the mix everything gets really weird, irrational.

After all, look at Ireland, or the CENTURIES of religious war in Europe and elsewhere.

Obviously such problems aren't limited to Islam.

[eyl]

29. I think there's another factor

As was said above, it probably appeared as a result of several influences. Suicide bombing - especially against civilians - requires either an overwhelming commitment to a cause (or to specific people you want to save, in some cases; see below about desperate soldiers), or a belief that you will get rewarded in the afterlife. I've seen some make comparisons between suicide bombers and soldiers, but I think this is incorrect. While soldiers face the risk of death, they usually don't face the certainty, unless the situation is truly desperate (and then a soldier may indeed sacrifice his life to save his comrades). Soldiers who are truly suicidal are rare, for Darwinistic reasons if not others, and on the battlefield they tend to be fairly useless. Remember also that in a battle, you don't have time to think; while a suicide bomber has days or weeks to reconsider (and quite a few have). And that assumes you're fighting other combatants; once you're attacking civilians, the level of commitment required goes up.

That's where religion comes in. It gives you the belief that what you are doing is sanctified by the ultimate moral source - especially important when you're targeting civilians - and that you will be rewarded for your sacrifice. And when it comes to Islamic bombers, the religion has to step in; since suicide is forbidden by Islam, you have to find religious justification to finesse the issue so it's not "really" suicide.

However, once you do have religious justification, it may start to snowball. By making it a part of jihad, suicide bombing effectively becomes the ultimate test of faith*. If a religious subgroup (the Islamists, in this case) starts to extoll something as a test of faith, others with the same religious bent may be (and have, it seems), be dragged along in their wake; especially when it's "politically incorrect" to oppose them (calling a Palestinian who suicide-bombs a mall a "psychotic nutter", for example, is unlikely to go well in an Arab country - while there is opposition, it usually tends to be relatively low-key). So while religion, in and of iself, may not be enough to engender suicide bombing, it greatly facilitates its spread.

*It can also become the ultimate test of conviction to a cause - the secular Palestinian factions (especially AAMB) basically began suicide bombing because they where losing "street cred" due to Hamas' and IJ's bombings.

[barb162]

30. del