TODAY! - Jews Protest Against Salute To 'Israel' Parade in New York

[ElsewheresDaughter]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20050605/pl_usnw/today____jews_protest_against_salute_to__israel__parade_in_new_york010_xml;_ylt=AsBHEAWalkJZLDTU8ovz13CyFz4D;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews will be protesting the Salute to "Israel" parade, which celebrates the existence of the State of "Israel" being held today in New York.

They will also protest the Israel Day Concert in Central Park, which is to show support of the State of Israel and to rally against the withdrawal of the settlers from Gaza.


The Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews will be denouncing the very existence of the State of Israel, which is strictly forbidden according to Jewish Law (the Torah).


The Torah expressly forbids the establishment of a Jewish state and commands Jews to remain in exile until released from that exile by G-d Himself, without any human intervention, at which time all nations of the world will live together in peace and serve the One G-d in harmony.


This condemnation of the State of "Israel" also encompasses all the actions committed by the State of "Israel" under the guise of Judaism, whether against the Arab Palestinian people or people of the Jewish faith.


Therefore, the Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews proclaim that according the Torah, the State of "Israel" should be totally dismantled -- and pray that this should come about speedily and peacefully

http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/IIDstatement.cfm

ISRAELI INDEPENDENCE DAY
A Day of Mourning for Torah Faithful Jews

While the Zionists celebrate the anniversary of the founding of the so called “state” of Israel, the worldwide Jewish community faithful to the teachings of G-d and the Torah gather to commemorate this anniversary as a day of sorrow and tragedy. Our sorrow is demonstrated by the wearing of “sackcloth” and the flying of black flags of mourning.

The founding of the Zionist state is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah which forbids the establishment of a Jewish state and commands Jews to remain in exile until released from that exile by G-d Himself, without any human intervention, at which time all Nations of the world will live together in peace.

Two thousand years ago, at the time of the Temple’s destruction, the Jewish people were forbidden by the Creator (kesubos 111a)

• To go up en masse to the land of Israel
• To rebel against the nations
• To in any way attempt to end the exile

Torah faithful Jews are to behave in a civil, honest and grateful manner towards their hosts throughout the world.

The Zionist intervention against G-d’s will by establishing the “state of Israel” represents an official rebellion against G-d and the Torah, a rebellion which has generated untold pain and suffering. On the anniversary of the founding of this heretical Zionist state, true Torah Jews mourn the attempt to transform Judaism from a religion into a secular entity and the attempt to uproot the Torah teachings. We mourn the tragedies it has produced:, desecration of the Sabbath, loss of modesty, and a litany of violations against many laws of our faith and Jewish teachings, amongst them the command of compassion for our fellow beings. The list goes on.

We further mourn the deportation, subjugation, and oppression of the Palestinian people. The list goes on and on…..

On the tragic day of this anniversary we fast and gather in Synagogues around the world, praying for a speedy, peaceful, and painless dismantlement of the heretical Zionist state of Israel. May we merit that this year will be the year all nations together, in the service of one G-d, can celebrate in a free Palestine and a free Jerusalem.

[Gyre]

1. Remember Rachel Corey

Murdered by the IDF. http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/031603_american_woman_peace_activist_ki.htm RIP

Gyre

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tlcandie]

4. You've got to be kidding me that you would post such as this?

Speechless...

EDIT:
I've seen some really horrible things come from your posts, but I think this takes the cake, IF that is possible.

Why someone with such limited views of Israel and people in general, not to mention the vileness spewed here, even participates in a forum such as DU is beyond me.

:shrug:

[not systems]

7. A post like this is par for the course with Jimbo...

and his clique.

For some reason they get a pass to hate.

[not systems]

5. Spoken like a true humanitarian progressive...

That is some ugly sentiment you express, very hateful.

[Lars39]

6. I really admire the reverence you have for living things, Jim Sagle.

:eyes:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

15. Jews fo Global Justice.org....

http://www.jewsforglobaljustice.org/

[pie]

8. Rachel was a kind and giving spirit who hated no one

She only wanted to help.
Her only fault was expecting humane treatment
from her murderers.

Do not worry, she will never be forgotten.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colorado Blue]

30. We won't forget these Rachels.

No doubt, Rachel Corrie was a wonderful person who was trying to help.

But, she wasn't "murdered".

There was a tragic and pointless accident in a war zone. She couldn't even be seen from the driver's point of view. This has been verified by people who have actually driven those machines.

The people in charge of the machine were reacting to the smuggling of arms, that were being used to kill OTHER people's lovely daughters. Here are some of THOSE Rachels:

1. My Name is Rachel Levy (Israeli girl age 17, blown up in a grocery
store)
2. My Name is Rachel Thaler (Israeli girl aged 16, blown up in a pizzeria)
3. My Name is Rachel Levi (Israeli girl aged 19, murdered while waiting
for the bus)
4. My Name is Rachel Gavish (killed with her husband and son while at
home)
5. My Name is Rachel Charhi (blown up while sitting in a cafe)
6. My Name is Rachel Shabo (murdered with her three sons aged 5, 13 and 6 while sitting at home)

And, I'd like to offer an opinion as to why people get upset when her name comes up in completely unrelated threads. It's because it is unfair to use Rachel's tragic death to bully other people, or to promote such hyperbole, or to pretend that great violence wasn't taking the lives of those OTHER beautiful daughters.

This really isn't helpful to those of us who ARE trying to create pathways of understanding between people. This is a complicated and difficult situation and healing the violence of decades is difficult enough. There are religious, historical and moral issues involved that require understanding. For example one of the Gaza communities that will be abandoned, was destroyed once before, in war. It stood directly in the path of the Egyptian army. Its residents were simply slaughtered. People put their heart's blood into rebuilding it.

The greenhouses these farmers have built also sustain Palestinians who work there.

I hope this makes some sense, and hopefully adds some understanding?

[Englander]

31. All of which is yer opinion;

You do not know Ms Corrie was invisible to the driver,
or why the driver did not stop,or whether it was deliberate
or an accident.

Again,you make the claim that the ISM activists were preventing
the IDF from destroying,or finding any tunnels,& any such
claim is not credible,or correct.

The ISM activists were in the Gaza strip in an attempt
to prevent the IDF from destroying a home,from demolishing
a house.

'>snip

Corrie, 23, was crushed to death by an army bulldozer in Rafah, Gaza, as she protested against house demolitions.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,936305,00.html

[Behind the Aegis]

32. Let's look at it another way.

One "Rachel" chose to be in a dangerous situation, which resulted in her tragic death. The other "Rachels" were living their lives, when they were struck down. Does this make her death more important? Considering there are multiple sides, perspectives, why has she become a martyr? Why is her death more important than those who have lost their lives while doing nothing more than dancing, driving, or siting at home?

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Show me where anyone has argued her death is more important...

I've never seen that happen. Whereabouts is it supposedly happening? What I've seen is that her death gained attention because of the circumstances in which it happened. She was a peace activist. The IDF denies responsibility and some 'supporters' of Israel went on to demonise her and make vile and sickening attacks on her ala the pancake queen comments from one poster in this forum. Now, if you can point out where any of the deaths of the other Rachels have happened in circumstances where there is a denial of responsibility for the deaths or where attacking them after their deaths becomes a widespread sport, then I'd be wondering why their deaths weren't being treated the same...


Much as eyl summed up how I feel about the attention given to Rachel Corrie, and I wish people would move on from the demonising/adulation stage, I think I'm going to add that after reading one or two posts in this subthread, I've come to the conclusion that some people are so fixated on being on the *Right Side* in the conflict that any sympathy or attention given to victims that aren't seen as being on the *Right Side* must be hopefully blotted out by lots of carrying on about other victims who are seen as being on the *Right Side* and demands that they get equal or more attention. Count me out of that crap...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

33. Englander, QC

M'lord,

You opined,

You do not know Ms Corrie was invisible to the driver, or why the driver did not stop,or whether it was deliberate
or an accident.

Under our systems of Common Law, which both Israel and the US received from the United Kingdom, and which goes back to our common heritage of the Magna Carta, the burden is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Ms. Corrie was visible to the drive, and that if visible the driver's failure to stop was with specific intent to commit assault, or was the product of gross, wanton negligence which shocks the sensibilities of the community and the court and jury.

M'lord, it does not appear to me that the prosecution has met that burden.

M'lord, you have further opined

Again,you make the claim that the ISM activists were preventing the IDF from destroying,or finding any tunnels,& any such claim is not credible,or correct.

M'lord, I beg to differ with you on this contested question of fact.

M'lord, you have further opined

The ISM activists were in the Gaza strip in an attempt to prevent the IDF from destroying a home,from demolishing
a house.

M'lord, again, a contest question of fact - especially since the Israelis have judicial and administrative venues of relief to challenge demolition orders.

M'lord, the record does not show that these venues were followed. If anything this only goes to the intent or "mens rea" of Ms. Corrie.

M'lord, we have no choice but to direct a verdict of acquital, but grant you leave to reopen when you have a better case.

[thebigidea]

35. the correct abbreviation is "M'lud"

you are sentenced to watch six episodes of Rumpole of the Bailey.

[eyl]

34. OTOH,

YOU do not know she WAS visible to the driver.

My personal opinion, is that she wasn't, based on a passing familiarity with armored D-9s and the circumstances which would have been in force. You can, of course, conclude otherwise; but as far as I've seen, the only evidence cited by those claiming she was killed deliberately is the eyewitness testimony, which is problematical at best (not counting the IDF version, there are at least six different - and differing - eyewitness accounts of what she was doing when she was hit). And as far as "trying to prevent demolishing a house", I'll note that the house wasn't demolished (IIRC, it was demolished a year later, but under different circumstances).

Anyway, I should also note that I find highly irritating both the tendency of some on the cybersphere to villify her*, and of others to bring her up at totally unrelated issues (like this one).

*While I think she acted extremely foolishly, I find the malicous characterizations of her floating around repulsive.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Eyl, I couldn't agree more!

Anyway, I should also note that I find highly irritating both the tendency of some on the cybersphere to villify her*, and of others to bring her up at totally unrelated issues (like this one).

Just in case you were wondering, that's what you said that I agree with...

Violet...

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PsychoDad]

9. Begs the question...

Is zionism more important than the law of the Torah?

Jim, are you Jewish? The reason I ask is because I was wondering if the orthodox interpretation of the law/commandment of God on the money or not? Are they correct in what they state?

I noticed you hadn't addressed the validity of their position. I would be interested in knowing more about that.

[tlcandie]

10. !!!!

:applause:

Waits for an answer...

[ElsewheresDaughter]

11. i would like to hear this addressed too

[11cents]

12. PsychoDad, Neturei Karta is a tiny subsect of a subsect

To be precise, they are a small subsect of the neo-kabbalist Hasidic movement, which itself began in the 18th century, making it quite a recent phenonenon in Jewish history. The Hasids as a whole comprise a tiny proportion of the Jewish population, and their practices are not synonymous with "orthodoxy" -- in fact they were attacked by the Eastern European orthodox establishment for many years. Certainly the Neturei Karta's political/religious positions cannot be considered as synonymous with "the orthodox interpretation" of anything. This is true regardless of their merit (and as a non-Jew, there's no reason for you to care about their religious merit).

[11cents]

13. Now that you have a substantive answer ...

...will you stop presenting the views of Neturei Karta as those of "orthodox" or even "real" Judaism? Again, this has nothing to do with your own opinions of them, or even of their objective merit, if such can be determined. It has to do with fact: Neturei Karta is a very small group. *They* think that they represent the "real" faith, but this mindset is typical of sects and cults in general. I might add that a lot of the virulence with which they express their opinions has to do with intra-Hasidic feuds that have nothing to do with anyone outside the movement, and nothing to do with the Middle East either.

[PsychoDad]

14. I thank you for the information.

I never presented the views of any group as orthodox, instead if you look at the article you will find the phrase, "The Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews ", which itself gives the impression of the larger orthodox sect, not of a small subset.

Your issue shouldn't be with me or the original poster, but with Yahoo news which posted the original story and used the phrase "Orthodox Jews", not clarifying the group as a small sect.

Although you have illustrated that this group is a small Jewish sect the correctness of their doctrine has still not been addressed. Are thy wrong only because they are only a small group? Are the zionists correct because they are larger?

What is the "mainstream" Jewish opinion of Jewish scholars? Does the opinion of Neturei Karta on this carry any weight in the opinion of Torah Law?

Just wondering.

[pie]

16. Those are some excellent questions

These are the kinds of issues I would like to see discussed in this forum.

[Colorado Blue]

19. I'm no rabbi, but I'm gonna give this a shot. Hopefully you'll

hear from some other people also. I'm also appending a link so people can read and get a bit more information.

Judaism is an ancient culture. It is composed of much more than religion. We've developed over a period of some 5,000 years, nearly 2,000 of which we lived in Diaspora.

So although we are a very small group of people, only some 13 million, Jewish thought, history and experience has been very deep and very wide. The fact that Jews have lived in communities around the globe, from America to China, from Africa, all throughout the Middle East, Europe - everywhere - has given rise to great diversity in thought, scholarship and opinion.

This particular group IS small and no, for that reason they aren't necessarily wrong. But, they're aren't right either:)

There is leeway, room for differences of opinion, within Judaism. Many Jews are entirely secular. Others are mystics, students of Cabbalah. Some are Torah scholars, many have deep exposure to Talmud.

As within any religion, there are various sects, philosophies and differences of opinion.

This is such a huge topic, I hope you'll forgive my poor efforts to explain a little. Here's a link to an article that might help explain a bit more.

http://www.mideastweb.org/jewreligion.htm

[PsychoDad]

25. Thanks for the answer

"There is leeway, room for differences of opinion, within Judaism. Many Jews are entirely secular. Others are mystics, students of Cabbalah. Some are Torah scholars, many have deep exposure to Talmud.

As within any religion, there are various sects, philosophies and differences of opinion."

Indeed, I can understand that.

Very informative, thank you.:hi:

[Colorado Blue]

27. A pleasure! Take care:) nt

[pelsar]

20. Neturei Karta

nothing more than a small cult.....every society has them...small groups that make their own doctrine and declare that "they have the truth and the only truth"

basically they say that until the messiah comes on his white donkey then no israel should exist and in fact all jews in israel are sinners, etc. because its the messiahs job to create the "land of israel".....

so its just a timing issue with them....

[newyorican]

21. Is not...

those that make up Israel a small portion of the worlds population?

Does not this small portion reject the notions of the majority of the larger world around them?

Does not this small portion of the world make its own doctrine?

Just some observations.

[pelsar]

23. and the KKK

i guess you can add the KKK to your list as well....

just an observation

[Colorado Blue]

28. Respectfully, there are only 13 million Jews on the planet.

So, those that live in Israel, about 5 million, are also a small number. There are about 5.2 million of us here in the States. The rest are scattered around the globe.

It is estimated that, without the genocidal persecutions of the last 2,000 years, we would now number some 125 million souls.

Nor have we gone around persecuting those who won't convert to our religion. We don't attempt to convert people to our religion or our way of life. We assume other people have the right to worship as they choose, and maintain THEIR individuality.

So NO, we aren't rejecting the world around us. I think, actually, it's quite the other way around.

[Colorado Blue]

29. I don't suppose you know where we could find this white

donkey? We could use some help already:)

In this day and age, a white Toyota would suffice?

I kid, I kid:)

[arthur_d]

17. Live Broadcast of event!!!!!!!!

page: http://arutzsheva.com/news.php3?id=83114

Live Audio: http://www.israelnn.com/metafiles/asx/israelnationalradio.asx

[Behind the Aegis]

18. Right-wing wackos

They are about as representative of most Jews, as Pat Robertson is for most Christians. They are 'literalists.' I am not surprised some on the left have taken a shine to them, as this allows for them (those on the left) to say "Let's dismantle Israel. It's OK to these Jews." However, unlike some Christians, I will not say that these people are not "real" Jews, because when the trains roll, we will all be sharing the same cattle car.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

24. most.....

it appears that in israel most are for leaving gaza.... and given that it is their lives on the line, seems to me that they get "preference" in terms of "voting rights"