Anti-semitic bastard at DSM meeting blaming Israel?

[Ian David]

He says Israel and the U.S. want to "dominate that region of the world," and that the last time he brought it up he was called anti-semitic.

He says the reason we invaded Iraq was O.I.L.

Oil
Israel
L-something

I have news for him.

Israel does NOT want to dominate that part of the world.

Israel wants that part of the world to stop trying to kill them.

Fucking bastard.

This robs us of SO MUCH credibility to be associated with him.

My friend Dave, the Jewish anti-Bush Republican is going to go ballistic over this.

[BayouBengal07]

1. It's not anti semitism

To be against Israeli foreign policy is not to hate Jews.

[NJmaverick]

10. That is correct

To many people try to intimidate people into support the HORRIBLE policies of Israel with that Anti Semitism stunt.

[Eloriel]

35. And this is how that vile, false, highly manipulative meme got started

Halper: Yes. Anti-Semitism feeds on the idea that Israel is a victim. The Foreign Ministry of Israel invented a new form of anti-Semitism in the last few years called the 'New anti-Semitism,' and they then found some professors willing to give it some academic credibility. The New anti-Semitism that is now being spread all over says that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism, period. And it has been very effective.

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/module.php?mod=book&op=print&id=806


It's a great article, worth reading in its entirety.

[Marnieworld]

11. I had the same thought verbatim

But I thought against writing it. It seems so basic to mean Jews are jews and Israel is a country with a foreign policy. To have a problem with a policy and its, often bloddy results, is not to be anti-semitic. It's just caring about human rights. And to the OP Israel is very much in bed with our illegal government. I don't like this government but I'm not some Christian hating bogot.

[Larkspur]

2. Yes, Israel does and they wanted Saddam removed

Water is the growing issue in the Middle East. Israel wanted water from the Tigris-Euphrates river. They also wanted a staging area to bomb Iran, who they feel is their chief threat in the region.

[still_one]

9. Actually, they DID NOT WANT the U.S. to go into IRAQ

[Larkspur]

24. Yes, they did. That's why Lieberman championed IWR for the Dems

and stood with Bush in the Rose Garden for a photo-op. Lieberman has been fighting to forcibly remove Saddam since 1991.

[rinsd]

27. And Lieberman is Jewish so naturally he speaks for Israel...

I know you didn't necessarily mean that was but your statement certainly came off that way to me.

[Eloriel]

40. You didn't want to read his second sentence, or

didn't want to believe him, or .... ???

There's absolutely no reason to accuse Larkspur of anti-semitism. He's not, and was quite clear besides. Such a tactic demeans YOU, frankly.

[Coastie for Truth]

44. I have followed Larkspurs appends for some time

I beg to disagree. This thread is turning into a hate filled festschrift -- and if in the 1950's-60's-70's African Americans and Hispanics could "define" racism - then in this thread, Jews can define anti-Semitism.

No double standards. The "target" has the right to define the "-ism" That was the rule in the 1950's-60's-70's --- it's still the rule.

We older liberals and progressives wrote the rule into the books in the 1950's-60's-70's - you kids hve to live with it.

The "target" has the right to define the "-ism" That was the rule in the Democratic Party in the 1950's-60's-70's --- it's still the rule.

[rinsd]

49. What tactic?

All I said was that I didn't think Larkspur meant it that way(which I based on earlier readings) but it came off badly. It seemed to conflating Joe Lieberman with Israel policy which just isn't the same thing.

On Edit: Now that I've re-read it I don't see how the 2nd statement changes anything.

Joe Lieberman wanted Saddam removed in 1991 and since then. So is is that proof that Israel wanted him removed?

We have lots of discussions of casual even non conscious racism here in terms of how people define others etc. Sometimes its overwrought sometimes its dead on. I don't think LarkSpur meant it that way but it was received just the same.

It's pretty easy to talk about Israel's motivations based on what their own leaders have said.

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. Netanyahu was one of 3 on t.v. after 9/11 wondering if Americans

had the resolve to avenge the attacks. Wolfowitz and Cheney were the other two I remember. I don't think that Israel's leadership would have mind much if America wrongly attacked Iraq, instead of Afganistan since one was more of a direct threat to Israel, than the other.

[karynnj]

30. Netanyahu is to the right of Sharon

This would be like quoting Santorum or Delay as representative of the US

[mzmolly]

3. I didn't quite get that impression of his comments.

I got that Israel as an ally was PART of the reason we invaded Iraq.

[kansasblue]

4. L was logistics

[Cha]

32. PERFECT!

LOGISTICS!

[ET Awful]

So when are you going to stop equating being against the acts of Israel

with being anti-semitic? It's a bullshit argument and you know it. Being against the acts of Israel is no more anti-semitic than being against the acts of Bush is being anti-American.

After all, it's not like people were just arrested for spying for Israel or anything . . . . oh wait.

[Beetwasher]

5. I'm Jewish and That's Not Anti-Semitic

Israel foreign policy sucks and it's not anti-semitic to point it out.

[KaryninMiami]

15. Agreed. But the minute Israel gets brought into the conversation,

many people immediately get "pre-emtively" upset. I too am Jewish and disagree with much of Israel's foreign policy.

I also believe that many neocons and far right fundamentalists (www.theocracywatch.org) who supposedly "support" Israel, do so because they of the rapture, which states that Jerusalem must be in the hands of the Jews in order for Jesus to return.

[Coastie for Truth]

53. True

But the "rebellious left" are very quick to conflate Neocons and Likudniks with all Zionists (even Peace Now which call a "fake"), and the so-defined Zionists are then conflated with all Israelis who are in turn conflated with all Jews.

That is anti-Semitism. And the "rebellious left" loves that game.

We old farts wrote a set of Progressive rules in the 1950's-60's-70's. Those rules were that African Americans and Hispanics could "define" racism - then in this thread, Jews can define anti-Semitism.

No double standards. The "target" has the right to define the "-ism" That was the rule in the 1950's-60's-70's --- it's still the rule.

We older liberals and progressives wrote the rule into the books in the 1950's-60's-70's - you kids hve to live with it.

[neweurope]

6. Read yesterday on DU - don't know which thread and cannot use the

search function - what interests me I copy:

"Invading Iraq and Syria planned since 1996
Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq — an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right — as a means of foiling Syria’s regional ambitions.
…..a report prepared by The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies’ "Study Group on a New Israeli Strategy Toward 2000."

I have no idea if it is true or not. I just want to add that being anti-Israel is NOT being anti-Semitic. Not at all.

-----------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[DoYouEverWonder]

58. This is the one

A Clean Break - Invading Iraq and Syria planned since 1996

Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq — an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right — as a means of foiling Syria’s regional ambitions.


A Clean Break:
A New Strategy for Securing the Realm


Following is a report prepared by The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies’ "Study Group on a New Israeli Strategy Toward 2000." The main substantive ideas in this paper emerge from a discussion in which prominent opinion makers, including Richard Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser participated. The report, entitled "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," is the framework for a series of follow-up reports on strategy.

http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3864207&mesg_id=3864207

[still_one]

7. I agree with you

I am a Jew myself, but the problem is that is NOT how many will look at it thanks to Perle, Wofewitz, and others in PNAC

The majority of Jews in the U.S. do NOT support PNAC, but when scape goats are needed, people will make broad generalizations on a few people, some who happen to be Jewish

Fucking bush, his administration, and the PNAC Jews who are causing this shit

[ET Awful]

12. Once again, being against the acts of ISRAEL does not equate to

hating JEWS.

[still_one]

17. no it doesn't

but because many of the assholes in PNAC are Jewish, there will be more and more anti Jewish attacks in this country.

It is human nature unfortunately. It happened during the McCarthy period where Jews were equated with being communists, and anti-Christian.

I would be very surprised if when we finally get out of Iraq, the "Jews" are given some of the blame for it

[ET Awful]

20. I don't think so.

It would seem that you would rather hide certain truths in order to prepare for an as yet non-existent threat.

I don't think that's an advisable course of action.

[still_one]

37. no that wasn't my point

I agree with you. I just think that human nature will choose to generalize their blame. I know very well who is responsible:

The administration, PNAC, and certain members of Congress, mostly republicans, but some democrats

[Coastie for Truth]

54. I agree with Still_One

The problem is that kids of the "Rebellious Left" are quick to make those illogical jumps -- so I go to the rule of my political youth in the 1950's-60's-70's when African Americans and Hispanics could "define" racism - Therefore, today, in this thread, Jews can define anti-Semitism.

No double standards. The "target" has the right to define the "-ism" That was the rule in the 1950's-60's-70's --- it's still the rule.

We older liberals and progressives wrote the rule into the books in the 1950's-60's-70's - today's kids have to live with it.

[da_chimperor]

8. Are you a member of the Israeli government?

Because unless you are, I wouldn't expect you to know their strategic goals.

[Ian David]

13. No, I canceled my subscription to The Protocols years ago

[da_chimperor]

22. That was quite subtly done.

I'd never even heard of that book until now, but thanks to google I do know.

Do you view criticism of Israeli foreign policy as anti-Semitic, because it looks that way?

[Ian David]

25. I criticize Israel all the time. But his comment was over the line.

There's a difference between criticising their policy and re-stating old anti-semitic slanders dressed-up as criticisms against Israel.

I agree with a point a previous poster made that Israel might be concerned about securing a water supply.

However, it is simply a putting lipstick on an anti-semitic pig to say that Israel wants to take over the Middle East.

That's like saying, "Our Red Robin chain of restuarants shouldn't hire 'Urban People'," when you're actually talking about black people.




It is a classic in paranoid, racist literature. Taken by the gullible as the confidential minutes of a Jewish conclave convened in the last years of the nineteenth century, it has been heralded by anti-Semites as proof that Jews are plotting to take over the world. Since its contrivance around the turn of the century by the Russian Okhrana, or Czarist secret police, "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" has taken root in bigoted, frightened minds around the world.

The booklet’s twenty-four sections spell out the alleged secret plans of Jewish leaders seeking to attain world domination. They represent the most notorious political forgery of modern times. Although thoroughly discredited, the document is still being used to stir up anti-Semitic hatred.

Origins of the Protocols

Serge Nilus, a little-known Czarist official in Moscow, edited several editions of the Protocols, each with a different account of how he discovered the document. In his 1911 edition Nilus claimed that his source had stolen the document from (a non-existent) Zionist headquarters in France. Other "editors" of the Protocols maintained that the document was read at the First Zionist Congress held in 1897 in Basel, Switzerland.

Note: According to reputable scholars, including Prof. Norman Cohn in his noted book, Warrant for Genocide, the world-control myth was actually lifted from a 19th century French political satire in which the alleged plotters weren’t even Jewish.

More:
http://www.adl.org/special_reports/protocols/protocols_intro.asp

[da_chimperor]

34. But he didn't say Israel wants to take over the middle east, you did.

He said that they want to dominate it. If the Yankees are dominating the sport of baseball, it doesn't mean they literally have invaded and taken over the stadiums of opposing teams. There's more than one use of that word:

One entry found for dominate.
Main Entry: dom·i·nate
Pronunciation: 'dä-m&-"nAt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -nat·ed; -nat·ing
Etymology: Latin dominatus, past participle of dominari, from dominus master; akin to Latin domus house -- more at DOME
transitive senses
1 : RULE, CONTROL
2 : to exert the supreme determining or guiding influence on
3 : to overlook from a superior elevation or command because of superior height or position
4 : to have a commanding or preeminent place or position in <name brands dominate the market>
intransitive senses
1 : to have or exert mastery, control, or preeminence
2 : to occupy a more elevated or superior position

I interpreted his statement in the same way as saying the US and the EU are two dominant political bodies in the world. In this sense, id say just about every nation wants to be dominant.

[faithnotgreed]

38. his "comment" was in response to why did we go to war? he said OIL

o oil
i israel
l logistical

he only brought them up as the main reasons the us invaded the mideast. for logistical power in the mideast

is this incorrect?
have bush and sharon not allied to contain or gather power

[Ian David]

42. He also said Israel wants to "control the region."

That was the part that offended me.

That was the part that I believe is just The Protocols wrapped in a cloak of acceptability by substituting the word "Jews" with "Israel."

Otherwise, the rest was fair game.

And whether I am wrong or right, and whether you agree or not, his statement will only do two things:

1) Fuel anti-semitism for those who truly do believe (even if you don't believe) that Israel and Jews are one and the same. This is what is fueling anti-semitic attacks in Europe.

2) It will alienate people who would otherwise be on our side who will dismiss this whole issue as an anti-semitic conspiracy.

Believe me, in certain quarters, this guys comments will be played over and over to either justify anti-semitism or to condemn the whole downing street investigation as anti-semitic.

[faithnotgreed]

48. i do believe you. and understand the sensitivity

i did not hear him say that israel wants to control the region though i would not equate what "israel" (sharon) wants as always a duplicate of jewish peoples

but i know that whether its here or israel or anywhere, that words that fit one peoples agenda will always be taken - even if out of context - and repeated over and over as evidence of a particular agenda

im sorry for this and sorry for this entire situation and how it feels to those who are related to israel or jewish descent

i do have to say that mr mcgovern is an incredible man who bears no prejudice that im aware of
i know of him but have not met him so this is only my opinion.
he is a man of peace and truth i know that and if he says that israel is a part of the reason why the u.s. went to war in iraq then i believe that to be so. he was a cia agent for 27 yrs

but i can also definitely state that whether that is true or not it does not impact my feeling about jewish people. i understand that there are many who will hate no matter what and that this can be used against the jews. but people who will use that will clearly use anything they can get their hands on and when taken out of context then there is always a tv or radio clip of something available to use

hope youre ok friend. im sorry for your anguish

[Coastie for Truth]

56. Are you Col Esterhazy or Cardinal Torquamda or Pius IX? N/T

[marmar]

14. Like other posters said, to be opposed to some of Israel's policies...

is not to be anti-Israel as a nation, just as being opposed to the Bush Administration's foolishness is not anti-American. I was talking to an Israeli guy in Copenhagen a few weeks ago, and he just lambasted Israel's foreign policy and called Ariel Sharon a lapdog for Bush, and said they were destroying his country. Opposition to dangerous foreign policy is necessary, whomever the purveryor of it is.

[Monkie]

16. the truth is anti-semitism?

the truth is the truth is the truth
no nation gets a free pass

[Old Vet]

21. NONSENSE-- I can disagree with Israel,

And there iron fisted treatment of people.

[meganmonkey]

18. Are you anti-American for opposing Bushco?

I don't think so.

I don't blame the Israeli citizens for the policies of their government.

But I don't like some of the policies of their gov't. Does that make me anti-Semitic?

[Cha]

33. NO!

:toast:

[acmejack]

19. Oh please!

Perhaps you can explain why AIPAC is involved in spying on this Country? Or why they funded the most lavish parties at the conventions last year, one for each party. If they want what we want, it doesn't seem like such steps would be necessary.

That said, Israeli and Jew are NOT synonymous!

[Me.]

23. AIPAC & The Whole Larry Franklin Business

is what came to my mind too. And, I wonder what happened to the agreement Israel gave us, after Pollard, not to spy on us any more? Further, I frankly resent charges of anti-semitism when one doesn't agree with the foreign policy of that county. I will never be a RW Republican, and if I lived in Israel, I would never be a Likudist.

[Coastie for Truth]

61. I could make the same comment about Prince Bandar -- and

his corporate lobby -- - dictating our energy non-policy and wrecking our gasoline dependent economy.

[DixieDem]

26. I'm getting so sick and tired of this "anti-semitic" label crap...

I agree with the "bastard at the DSM". Sorry!

PS And how do you know what Israel wants? Hmmm?

[ProudDad]

29. I hate Israel

I hate Israel just as I hate all "Nations", including the U.S.

Nationalism is one of the bullshit concepts that divide human beings from one another for the purposes of control and profit.

As a great man, Doug Dowd said, "Piss on all flags!"

http://www.dougdowd.org/

[manic expression]

31. Get a clue!

Israel's policies are oppressive and disgusting. Their actions abroad and domestically are base. Their goal is to steal land and subjugate the people around them. That is why I HATE Israel's actions and government. The "terrorists" are only taking desperate measures against injustice. They are fighting oppression the only way they can (remind you of something? Try "Jewish Partisans in WWII"). When Israel ends its horrible policies, terrorism will decline tremendously.

If you claim I am anti-Semitic, you are hopeless. That is like calling someone who is against Fundamentalist Muslims anti-Islamic.

[Colorado Blue]

55. I call bullshit. These comments are full of hate.

Martin Luther King would roll in his grave.

The Israelis are in the process of WITHDRAWING from the OT - which they occupied in the first place to avoid being overrun.

UN 242 called for return of land in exchange for peace. No peace has come, yet land is being returned.

Ignorance and hatred are illuminating this thread - not reason.

[manic expression]

71. Good for you

why are we talking about MLK? My signature photo is Paul Kagame (Rwanda), sorry it was misleading.

They're withdrawing after how long? After how many dead? After destroying how many houses, lives and communities? They're handing over individual Palestinian cities right now (wow, giving a people their own land, how truly nice of them), but I'm not convinced.

Bombings and attacks on settlements/Israel have been much less of late, there is a tense peace (relatively peaceful), but it is quite admirable of the Palestinians to halt their struggle for the time being.

Most of the time, hate does come out of this issue, but excuse me for being passionate about injustice.

[Al-CIAda]

36. The 'I' - AIPAC spies, agents, and Iraq

AIPAC Spy Case involves Intelligence on Iranian WMD

Juan Cole

09/06/04 -- James Gordon Meek reports that both FBI investigations of leaks from the Pentagon concern in part secret US intelligence on Iranian weapons of mass destruction programs. The FBI suspects that this intelligence was leaked to AIPAC and the Israelis on the one hand, and to Ahmad Chalabi on the other. Chalabi in turn is suspected of passing the information on to Tehran, playing the role of double agent. Although the FBI seems to be keeping the two inquiries separate, there is strong circumstantial evidence that there was a behind-the-scenes connection between Chalabi and the Israelis. That is, the information circuit may have been ingrown among the Neoconservatives, the Israelis and Chalabi's people.

It should be noted that Chalabi, the Neoconservatives, and Israel's Likud Party were allied in wanting to get up a US war against Iraq. But they were divided on the next stage, which was to get Washington to attack Iran, as well. Chalabi hates Saddam, but as an Iraqi Shiite has strong ties to Tehran, so he was not actually on board with Stage Two, and may have helped derail it, for which he is now hated in some Neoconservative circles.
Con't-
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6869.htm
------------

Crazy Like a Fox
Neocons go bananas over AIPAC spy scandal, but there's a method to their madness
by Justin Raimondo

...Anonymous," a currently serving CIA analyst, writes:"One can only react to this stunning reality by giving all praise to Israel's diplomats, politicians, intelligence services, U.S.-citizen spies, and the retired senior U.S. officials and wealthy Jewish-American organizations who lobby an always amenable Congress on Israel's behalf. In an astounding and historically unprecedented manner, the Israelis have succeeded in lacing tight the ropes binding the American Gulliver to the tiny Jewish state and its policies; as Anatol Lieven has written, the Israelis have been so successful that Israeli nationalism 'for many Americans has become deeply entwined with their American nationalism.'"
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=3583
------------
Leak Inquiry Includes Iran Experts in Administration
FBI counterintelligence investigators have in recent weeks questioned current and former U.S. officials about whether a small group of Iran specialists at the Pentagon and in Vice President Cheney's office may have been involved in passing classified information to an Iraqi politician or a U.S. lobbying group allied with Israel, according to sources familiar with or involved in the case.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60497-2004Sep3.html?nav=rss_nation

[Behind the Aegis]

41. The americanfreepress

According to the moderators: "AmericanFreePress is not an acceptable source in this context. Please note that most sources located on www.hatedirectory.com are usually not appropriate for citation here on Democratic Underground.

Lithos
Sept 9-11 Moderator
Democratic Underground"

locked for bigoted source

[Al-CIAda]

43. Very well, I have deleted that clip from the post...

I saw no 'hate' in the article, but whatever.

[Behind the Aegis]

46. It wasn't the clip, per se.

The site itself is suspect. I seriously doubt you would post something from the KKK or David Duke's page, even if you thought it supported your cause.

[xchrom]

39. israel has no business trying to influence u.s. foreign policy

the way it does.

being anti-israel is not being anti-jewish.

there is a difference, an important one.

i

[Coastie for Truth]

51. Did you flunk Poli Sci 101

EVERYBODY in a democracy has the right to try to influence policy.

That's the First Amendment.

AMENDMENT I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

As to your comment "being anti-israel is not being anti-jewish. ... there is a difference, an important one."

Just remember, in the 1950's-60's-70's African Americans and Hispanics could "define" racism - then in this thread, Jews can define anti-Semitism.

No double standards. The "target" has the right to define the "-ism" That was the rule in the 1950's-60's-70's --- it's still the rule.

We older liberals and progressives wrote the rule into the books in the 1950's-60's-70's - you kids hve to live with it.

[DixieDem]

57. Okay... you're older and wiser, eh?

I'm an older and wiser liberal and progressive too. Don't speak for me, okay?

I agree with the person that you disagree with. Our children DON'T have to just accept and live with it... They can change this county to suit their own needs.

And you my friend will have to live with THAT!

[ima_sinnic]

77. the U.S. Constitution guarantees rights to U.S. CITIZENS, not

ISRAELIS and not the Israeli government. Israelis do NOT have a right to influence U.S. policy. geesh, I thought everybody knew at LEAST that much.

[ima_sinnic]

45. oh bullshit

take the victim card and shove it.

[Coastie for Truth]

65. Oh bullshit yourself!

[ima_sinnic]

74. oh, another persecuted "victim"?

hey, whatever. Israel's foreign policy bites the big one. So sue me.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yorgatron]

50. this is like saying i'm anti-american because i don't like W et al

Sharon and his ilk don't want peace in the middle east.
W and the neo-cons don't wantTRUE homeland security either,it's easier for them to get away with patriot act style bullshit.

[Ian David]

60. The U.S. isn't a refuge for the last remnants of a persecuted people.

The moral equivalency is a logical fallacy.

[Jacobin]

52. Um, did you know that Israel is the only country other than the US

whose populations supported invading IraqNam in the polls.

the ONLY other fucking one.

Don't pull that 'anti semitism' bullshit on me.

Its a cheap trick to distract from ghastly behaviour in this case, and I'm not buying it.

[darkism]

62. "IraqNam" ... nice.

I've taken to calling it "Vietraq" lately myself. :D

[Colorado Blue]

59. "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism"

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.

"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.

This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

http://www.chretiens-et-juifs.org/article.php?voir%5B%5D=504&voir%5B%5D=5802

Now everybody READ THIS and get a grip. Hatred is hatred.

These comments are full of hatred and bigotry and beyond that they make no damn sense at all.

If you can't listen to Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., then you can't HEAR.

[ElectroPrincess]

63. No, I don't think so ...

We're talking about Israel, THE STATE, not the Jewish Religion nor their followers. It's not our fault that the leaders of ISRAEL do not want a democratic state but a theocracy.

We're addressing it's STATE policies. You can't play that card anymore - there's no more false sympathy left to be had.

Get real.

[Jose Diablo]

64. I don't think too many people would

disagree that Sharon has Bu$h wrapped around his little finger.

As for anti-Semitic talk, I don't see it. Why is it that any criticism of Israel is 'anti-Semitic'.

Oftentimes the self-interest of countries is all that matters. And I don't see how land grabbing on the part of the extremist Lukid government of Israel is helping further peace one bit over in the middle east.

Truth is, I think if we, the 'big brother' USA just walked away from Israel a long time ago, then Israel would have had to make peace with their neighbors. Israel has used our good intensions to further their injustice in coming to a mutual understanding with the Palestanians. As it stands, Israel thinks they can do whatever they want, when they want it with impunity.

AIPAC can kiss my butt.

Besides, why did you post this here, in this forum, take-it to Israel/Palestine forum.

[Behind the Aegis]

66. This is not an I/P comment.

It relates to the US and Israel. Not everything Israel is about the OT.

[Jose Diablo]

73. OK, maybe we should talk about this then

Why do we, the USA give one iota about Israel?

Way I see it are 2 reasons.

First, because AIPAC donates a lot of money to politicians, this buys good relations and government arms sales to Israel. Then Israel can then refuse to negotiate in good faith any resolution on the things that trouble their neighbors, like how Israel grabs land, makes new settlements and pushes the muslims off the land they are on.

Second reason is the oil in the middle east. Do you think if the oils was not there we, the USA, would give one shit about what happened there. I wouldn't care, why should I. Yet my government makes all sorts of excuses about how much we Americans love Israel. Bunk. We love the oil, thats it. And our politicians love to posture about how we love Israel, so we can always keep a military presence close to the source of our society's energy and they can get campaign money.

Simple, huh.

Now that we have become honest about motives, tell me again how much Israel, Sharon and all those guys have such warmth and affection for America.

Self-interest is the name of the game. Has always been that way, always will be.

The guy in the DSM meeting told it how it is, it was refreshing to hear truth for a change.

[Behind the Aegis]

67. Fodder

I think it was a reckless statement. Again, Israel is the "cause" of the war. It is getting old. This will energize the anti-semitic filth on the right as "proof" that the Jews are behind it. This will energize the "right-wingers" who will use this as proof the Democratic Party is anti-semitic. And, worse, this will be used by anti-semites on the left, who cleverly disguise their hate for Jews as hate for Israel and her policies. It will be up to the Jews to sort it out.

[DixieDem]

72. Is Israel is the "cause" of the war???

NO! But Israel is part of the reason. Is it anti-semtitic to say that? I think McGovern is on the right track - it's all about O.I.L.

[Coastie for Truth]

75. OIL as in C8H18

That tarry liquid that we have a heroin like addiction to.

[otohara]

68. Whaaaaa???

Oh for Gawds sake - so much of our foreign policy revolves around Israel. Or do you deny that too?

[Behind the Aegis]

69. More of it revolves around our need for oil. n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

70. OIL OIL OIL

The west's foreign policy, Japan's foreign policy, China's foreign policy - totally oil driven. We are OIL MAD - like a junkie in need of a fix.

Crude oil breaks above $50/bbl, SUV sales fall like a rock -- and GM and Ford - GM and Ford - are reduced to Junk Bond status. We are getting involved in trans-Caspian Eurasia - the former Russian colonies - for OIL. The Bushco Neocons are making noises about going into Venezuela - for OIL - we don't like Chavez. OIL! OIL! OIL! - And Bush is an Oil man. And Cheney is an Oil man. And Bush family consigliere Jim Baker is Consigliere to the House of Saud - and to Big Oil. It's OIL! OIL! OIL!.

We twist our tax laws for the oil industry.

We twist our environmental laws for the oil industry.

We twist our fair employment laws for the oil industry.

We twist our Fair Employment laws for the Oil Industry.

We twists our securities laws for the Oil Industry.

WE PUT 160,000 AMERICANS INTO IRAQ - AND HAVE SO FAR KILLED 1700 OF THEM - FOR OIL

The resources are right here on DU---




Try reading William Engdahl's "A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order" -- or try Googling "Mark Sykes" or "Sykes-Picot" - do some digging.

I am an "outsider" in the energy industry. I'm in the renewable energy industry.

[Behind the Aegis]

76. Why was this moved to I/P?

THIS IS NOT AN I/P TOPIC!!!!!

ON EDIT: At least move it to the Jewish Forum, instead of locking it here.

[Coastie for Truth]

78. I screwed up

I sent skinner a "Thank you" for closing down and locking this flame rant festschrift.

I guess I jumped the gun.

Sarcasm on: I had planned to go to a Democratic Club Dinner and Fund Raiser on Monday - but I guess I'll go to the Bill Frist event on the 29th instead - I know where I'm not welcome.: Sarcasm Off.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

80. Locking per I/P Guidelines

Not a recent article or op-ed.