Dean Condemns 'Anti-Semitic Literature'

[drdon326]

ed note; this is not i/p


A handful of people at Democratic National Headquarters distributed material critical of Israel during a public forum questioning the Bush administration's Iraq policy, drawing an angry response and charges of anti-Semitism from party chairman Howard Dean on Friday.

"We disavow the anti-Semitic literature, and the Democratic National Committee stands in absolute disagreement with and condemns the allegations," Dean said in a statement posted on the DNC Web site.

Rep. John Conyers (news, bio, voting record) of Michigan, the senior Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, organized the forum on Thursday at the Capitol to publicize and discuss the so-called Downing Street memo. That document suggests that the Bush administration believed that war with Iraq was inevitable and that the administration was determined to use intelligence about weapons of mass destruction to justify the ouster of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.
-

One witness, former intelligence analyst Ray McGovern, told Conyers and other House Democrats that the war was part of an effort to allow the United States and Israel to "dominate that part of the world," a statement Dean also condemned.

"As for any inferences that the United States went to war so Israel could 'dominate' the Middle East or that Israel was in any way behind the horrific September 11th attacks on America, let me say unequivocally that such statements are nothing but vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric," Dean said.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050618/ap_on_re_us/downing_street_memo_dean_3

..................................................................

[jwirr]

1. I support Israel but there is a difference

between anti-semitism and criticizing policy. Policies can be wrong. Anti-semitism is always wrong.

[lala_rawraw]

2. Agree

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

3. Who was handing out the literature? Sounds like a Rovian ploy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Weren't there some freepers

right across the street? hmmmm

[drdon326]

4. Thats right.....

not all anti-israel is anti-semitism


but all anti-semitism is anti-israel.

[izzybeans]

15. It seems to me that many anti-Semites are pro Israel

because its part of their designs of the Rapture.

[Eloriel]

32. Amen. Not only that, they expect to CONVERT those Jews

right after the Rapture.

[Andromeda]

183. How do you tell the difference?

If you can find fault with some of Israel's policies that doesn't mean you're anti-Semitic.

If you not only don't like Israel's policies, it's people and it's very existance, you're anti-Semitic.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. Dean has fallen for the distraction trap here.

First of all, the war is part of an effort to allow the United States and Israel to dominate that part of the world. That is not an anti-semetic statement, that is a statement of fact that involves two nations, the United States of America and Israel.

Secondly STAY THE FUCK ON POINT. We have no goddamn discipline. Dean should know better as he is constantly a target of distraction attacks. The POINT Dr. Dean, is that the administration committed high crimes and misdemeanors when it lied to the people, to congress, and to the united nations in order to take us to war under false pretenses. That is the damn message. Stick to it.

[Al-CIAda]

10. Warren -echo your comments, 100% spot on. n/t

[Jim Sagle]

12. No one made you the message police.

[Zomby Woof]

14. Is he not allowed to think for himself?

He has a very valid point, even if you disagree. Are we not supposed to post anything unless it is 100% asskissing toward Dean?

[Jim Sagle]

26. Yes he is, and so am I.

[Zomby Woof]

27. But you see...

By jumping all over him for expressing a dissenting opinion about Dean, you have made yourself the message police. Ironic, no?

[Jim Sagle]

47. Not ironic, just false.

[Warren Stupidity]

34. I'm not the message police.

I am pointing out that as a political party we have no discipline and we are constantly falling for every move they make against us.

But rather than turn this into a personal attack, how about you argue against any or all of the following propositions:

1) Israel and the United States conspired to establish control over the middle east through military force, starting with the invasion of Iraq.

2) Criticism of Israel is not, in and of itself, anti-semitic.

3) This issue is a red-herring intended to divert attention away from the evidence that the Bush administration committed high crimes and misdemeanors by the deliberate use of fraud and deception to convince congress to authorize the attack on Iraq.

Make your case.

[Jim Sagle]

46. Here goes.

1) Israel and the United States conspired to establish control over the middle east through military force, starting with the invasion of Iraq.

The United did so conspire. Israel did not. Any contention that she did is absolute garbage.

2) Criticism of Israel is not, in and of itself, anti-semitic.

Agreed - unless it's based on lies. See point 1.

3)This issue is a red-herring intended to divert attention away from the evidence that the Bush administration committed high crimes and misdemeanors by the deliberate use of fraud and deception to convince congress to authorize the attack on Iraq.

Whose red-herring is it? Those who spew hate or those, like Dean, who would distance themselves and the Democratic party from it?

I trust Dean's perceptions of how Democrats need to respond much more than I do yours.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

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[Andromeda]

184. I agree.

Dean has good instincts on matters like these and the Democrats need to stay away from any identification with anti-Semitic political groups who want to make Israel the issue.

[Coastie for Truth]

70. It is all about OIL as in C8H8 and our heroin like addiction to SUVs

This war has nothing to do with Israel except as a scapegoat for the neocons. When this “War To Make The World Safe For SUV’s Goes Bad – As It Has – We Can Blame It On The Israelis”

You people blaming it on the Israelis are a bunch of SUV driving sheeple – and you have fallen for the Rovian scapgegoating of anybody but the Neocons.

If you follow the money – from your pocket to the gas station operator to the refioner – to the oil potentates – and back to the Halliburton and Carlyle and the elites that own them….

One appender has said

”Dean has fallen for the distraction trap here … First of all, the war is part of an effort to allow the United States and Israel to dominate that part of the world. That is not an anti-semetic statement, that is a statement of fact that involves two nations, the United States of America and Israel.”

I’m not the message police…
…
1) Israel and the United States conspired to establish control over the middle east through military force, starting with the invasion of Iraq.”

To which another appender responded

1) Israel and the United States conspired to establish control over the middle east through military force, starting with the invasion of Iraq.

The United did so conspire. Israel did not. Any contention that she did is absolute garbage.


2) Criticism of Israel is not, in and of itself, anti-semitic.

Agreed - unless it's based on lies. See point 1.

Which brought forth the rejoinder

So basically you have ruled out (1)

Your argument seems to be "not true and if you say it is true you are a jew hater", is that a fair summary?

Lets explore the issue of Israeli and US foreign policy goals. Is Israel not our long term 'best ally' in the region? Is there a long history of cooperative and coordinated activity between US and Israel? I simply cannot believe that the statement that Israel and US conspired to invade Iraq is even remotely controversial.

And then defensively said

I don't think we are claiming that the administration was 'hijacked by zionism'. Instead the claim, clearly stated in the PNAC document, and in the original post, is that Israeli Likud government and the Bush Cabal are working together to establish military domination of the Middle East, and that the attack on Iraq was part of their plan. Actually this isn't even arguable. It is in the goddamn PNAC documents. It is simply a fact.

You've attempted to turn this into race-baiting by inserting your own language "hijacked by zionists" into this. That is dishonest, and I think you know that.

A response of

” You have not read the PNAC documents, you are not familiar with the political positions of key players in the US neocon establishment, you basically don't know what you are talking about.”

is factually wrong because I have read the PNAC documents – back when Bernie Ward first raised them – a long time ago.

Have you read any of the documents listed below.

There are some alternative energy engineering, renewable energy engineering, and green energy engineering professionals (practitioners and academicians) who normally habituate the Forum and the , but append here on I/P.

There were just some implicit assumptions about petroleum issues that just don’t seem logical or correct. Some, in pompous, pseudo academic way, here’s a reading list:

Peak Oil and Some Petroleum Geology

1. Matthew Simmons, “Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy”

2. Kenneth Deffeyes, “Beyond Oil : The View from Hubbert's Peak”

3. Kenneth Deffeyes, “”Hubbert's Peak : The Impending World Oil Shortage”

4. David Goodstein, “Out of Gas: The End of the Age Of Oil”

Anthony Evans, “An Introduction to Economic Geology and Its Environmental Impact”

A ood introductory read, a level for a sophisticated intelligent reader who is not a geek or geologist

Petroleum Politics

1. Chomat, “Oil Addiction: The World in Peril”

2. Avi Shlaim, “War and Peace in the Middle East: A Concise History”

3. John Keay, “Sowing the Wind: The Seeds of Conflict in the Middle East”

4. Ehrenreich, “Funding Evil: How Terrorism Is Financed--and How to Stop It,”

5. Yergin, “Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money, and Power”

6. F. William Engdahl, “A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order”

A good read of the “Big Power” petroleum politics that led France and England to create an Eastern Littoral of the Mediterranean, with weak, divided, warring multi ethnic states – to protect the Suez Canal and the trade routes to East Africa and India.

You should also Google “Mark Sykes” and “Sykes-Picot Agreement”

Post Peak Oil World

1. Amory Lovins et al., Harvard Business Review on Business and the Environment (A Harvard Business...

2. Paul Hawken, “The Ecology of Commerce: A Declaration of Sustainability”

3. Amory Lovins and Paul Hawken, “Natural Capitalism: Creating the Next Industrial Revolution”

4. James Howard Kunstler, “The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of the Oil Age, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-first Century”

See also Kunstler’s DVD “The End of Suburbia”
Kunstler takes a mildly Malthusian view, not as pessimistic or Malthusian as, say Jared Diamond, but definitely not as optimistic as Lovins and Hawken.

US-Saudi Politics (Petroleum Politics 102)

1. Gerald Posner, “Secrets of the Kingdom: The Inside Story of the Secret Saudi-U.S. Connection”

2. Amy Goodman, “The Exception to the Rulers : Exposing Oily Politicians, War Profiteers, and the Media That Love Them”

3. Craig Unger, “House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties”

Analyzes the ties between the Bushes and the Saudi Royal family – “featured in Michael Moore’s “Fahrenheit 9/11

Bottom line – this war has nothing to do with Israel except as a scapegoat for the neocons. When this “War To Make The World Safe For SUV’s Goes Bad – As It Has – We Can Blame It On The Israelis”

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KittyWampus]

7. Was The Literature Just Info On The Pentagon's Franklin Spying F/Israel?

why is it so many people who are tight with the GOP turn out to be spies for our enemies or foreign powers?

Katrina Leung- Spy for Communist China
Larry Franklin- spy for Israel
Ahmed Chalabi- spy for Iran

[Colorado Blue]

75. How do we know they're not double agents? We don't have

a clue what our intelligence services are really up to. What gets into the papers is the LEAST of it.

If you want a SPY - check out George Herbert Walker Bush. Big time heavy, and what the Reagan/Bush Administration got up to was unbelievable.

And they are NOT reliable friends of Israelis or Jews. Believe that. Anybody and everybody is a pawn.

The real connection to the Bush family is the Saudis. And the goal, of course, is Big Oil. These guys ARE big oil, they're nakedly, openly, BIG OIL. Condoleeza Rice had a tanker named after her, for Pete's sake.

And oil is up to something like $58.00/barrel. These guys are rakin' it in.

[farmbo]

8. So lemme see...they didn't cover the Conyers Hearings, but blast the Dems

...for what one guy said in his testimony...and for a pamphlet that one Fruitball handed out at Dem HQs as they were WATCHING those hearings?!

:grr:

[Warren Stupidity]

36. exactly. EOM.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wryter2000]

13. Hey Cal Bear

Trust a Berkeley grad to post something so intellectual. :evilgrin:

Welcome to DU from another Cal Bear. B.A. 1977, Ph.D. 1988

:hi:

[Sather Gate]

18. Hail to California

Glad to meetcha, Sister Bear. My God, what a great school we went to - THE UNIVERSITY.
I was there in the glory years - and survived to tell the tale. B.A. 1969, Ph.D. 1975.:toast: :toast:

[Al-CIAda]

20. AIPAC spy scandal

Crazy Like a Fox
Neocons go bananas over AIPAC spy scandal, but there's a method to their madness
by Justin Raimondo

...Anonymous," a currently serving CIA analyst, writes:"One can only react to this stunning reality by giving all praise to Israel's diplomats, politicians, intelligence services, U.S.-citizen spies, and the retired senior U.S. officials and wealthy Jewish-American organizations who lobby an always amenable Congress on Israel's behalf. In an astounding and historically unprecedented manner, the Israelis have succeeded in lacing tight the ropes binding the American Gulliver to the tiny Jewish state and its policies; as Anatol Lieven has written, the Israelis have been so successful that Israeli nationalism 'for many Americans has become deeply entwined with their American nationalism.'"

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=3583

====
AIPAC Spy Case involves Intelligence on Iranian WMD
Juan Cole
09/06/04 -- James Gordon Meek reports that both FBI investigations of leaks from the Pentagon concern in part secret US intelligence on Iranian weapons of mass destruction programs. The FBI suspects that this intelligence was leaked to AIPAC and the Israelis on the one hand, and to Ahmad Chalabi on the other. Chalabi in turn is suspected of passing the information on to Tehran, playing the role of double agent. Although the FBI seems to be keeping the two inquiries separate, there is strong circumstantial evidence that there was a behind-the-scenes connection between Chalabi and the Israelis. That is, the information circuit may have been ingrown among the Neoconservatives, the Israelis and Chalabi's people.

It should be noted that Chalabi, the Neoconservatives, and Israel's Likud Party were allied in wanting to get up a US war against Iraq. But they were divided on the next stage, which was to get Washington to attack Iran, as well. Chalabi hates Saddam, but as an Iraqi Shiite has strong ties to Tehran, so he was not actually on board with Stage Two, and may have helped derail it, for which he is now hated in some Neoconservative circles.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6869.htm
------------
Leak Inquiry Includes Iran Experts in Administration
FBI counterintelligence investigators have in recent weeks questioned current and former U.S. officials about whether a small group of Iran specialists at the Pentagon and in Vice President Cheney's office may have been involved in passing classified information to an Iraqi politician or a U.S. lobbying group allied with Israel, according to sources familiar with or involved in the case.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60497-2004Sep3.html?nav=rss_nation
------------------

The Israeli "art student" mystery
For almost two years, hundreds of young Israelis falsely claiming to be art students haunted federal offices -- in particular, the DEA. No one knows why -- and no one seems to want to find out.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/05/07/students/index_np.html

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[dameocrat]

64. I don't think Raimondo is an antisemite

He simply challenges the war hawks and the right wing zionist along with the oil men are a part of it.

[Behind the Aegis]

72. Oh but he is!

You need to read some more of his articles. He is very much an anti-Semite!

[dameocrat]

73. I have been reading his articles for two years

and I have yet to see any signs of antisemitism. He is a right wing libertarian, but he isn't antisemitic. He has never promoted the Protocols, or claimed Jews were going to hell because they aren't Christian. He fights with republican neocons frequently, but who blames him. They are assholes, no democrat can support. They claim to support the estate tax is antisemitic, http://www.jewschool.com/ which Ramaindo doesn't do either. He isn't an antisemite just because you say so. Provide some evidence of his antisemitism.

[Behind the Aegis]

114. Correct about one thing.

He isn't an anti-Semite because I say so. He is because of what he believes. You think all anti-Semites run around quoting the "Protocols," claiming Jews are going to Hell, etc.? Oh no, the ones these days are much more clever. They're the ones who "have dear friends who are Jews." They're the ones that call for a single state solution, the single state being Palestine. They're the ones who think "Israel was behind 9-11." They're the ones who think "Washington is Israeli-occupied territory." Those are the NEW or Neo-anti-Semites. They take old canards and put a fresh spit-shine on it. All that glitters is not gold! He is a neo-anti-Semite, and not because I say so, but because HE says so!

[dameocrat]

116. Provide a quote of him saying he was a "neoantisemite"

I agree that people who claim Israel was behind 9/11 are antisemites. Where he say this?

[Behind the Aegis]

120. Ask, and ye shall recieve....

A BABE IN THE WOODS

I include myself among the unsuspecting. My first reaction to statements coming from the Arab world that "the Zionists" were really behind the terrorist attacks was to dismiss them as authored by certifiable nutballs: I devoutly wished they would shut up. Little did I know, or want to know, that our best friend, valiant little Israel, was involved in any way, shape, or form. While a frequent critic of Israeli government policies, I am not hostile to Zionism per se, and my opinion of the current regime was never that low. It wasn’t until the end of November, when the first reports of detained Israelis began to be widely circulated, that I even suspected there was an Israeli angle. from:THE TRUTH, AT LAST

(emphasis mine)

Then, there is this little gem: 9/11: THE TRUTH COMES OUT
Israel's 9/11 connection exposed – and you read it here first!>

Still think he is "just anti-Israeli?"

[dameocrat]

121. He didn't say they did 9/11. He said the mossad trailed the hijackers

That maybe. The fbi was trailing them too atleast if you believe the 9/11 widows.

[Behind the Aegis]

123. He said:

"Little did I know, or want to know, that our best friend, valiant little Israel, was involved in any way, shape, or form."

This IMPLIES Israel was INVOLVED with 9-11!!!!

[dameocrat]

125. "in any way shape or form" indicates that this involvement

was not necessarily direct. Both links show that he was talking about the trailing of 9/11 hijackers.

[Behind the Aegis]

126. No it doesn't!

That statement IMPLIES that there was involvement. It does NOT distinguish between "direct" or "indirect" involvement! And, both links also show he believes Israel was involved, directly or indirectly! So, that he MAY believe it is an INDIRECT connection, makes it "un" anti-Semitic, somehow?

[dameocrat]

128. Well then I guess the 9/11 widows are antiAmerican

for talking about the fbi trailing the hijackers. You took the statement out of context. The rest of both articles clearly show the involvement to be that of tracking 9/11 hijackers.

[Behind the Aegis]

129. What the Hell?!

Boy, talk about spinning! I didn't take his comment out of context! He BELIEVES Israel was INVOLVED, either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY. He makes his "case" for BELIEVING ISRAEL WAS INVOLVED, DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY, by stating the FBI was following Israelis! He ALSO talks about the "mysterious IM" received by Jews in the Towers 2 hours before the strike, and use an Israeli paper as his source, even though that has been DISPROVED!

TWO EXPLANATIONS

As the story developed, however, one thing became all too clear: the Israelis could well have had foreknowledge of 9/11, and, as Carl Cameron averred, failed to inform the US. With the publication of "the ‘Israeli Art Student’ Papers," however, we are faced with only two possible explanations:

The Israelis knew, but didn’t tell us, and Cameron’s surmise is confirmed, or:
The Israelis knew and did tell us, but the incompetence of the US government got in the way of effective preventative action.
SHINE THE LIGHT

Given what we now know, either explanation is possible. We won’t know for sure, of course, until a thorough investigation is undertaken. But that won’t happen until and unless the media takes up this story, and starts reporting it to the American people. Then and only then will Congress be moved, perhaps, to awaken from its post-9/11 trance and come to life, awakened, perhaps, by the prospect of political gain, or the suspicion that the wool is being pulled over their eyes – maybe both. Whatever the motive, the results of such an investigation can only lead to the shedding of more light on a very dark subject. The Truth At Last!

Now, you want to tell me one more time how he doesn't think the Israelis were involved? NO WHERE does he give "option 3:" The Israelis knew nothing and were not involved!

[dameocrat]

130. and that would also mean the fbi had foreknowledge.

.

[Behind the Aegis]

131. WHAT?!?

This sub thread started because of this:

I agree that people who claim Israel was behind 9/11 are antisemites. Where he say this?

I have shown you where HE says Israel, directly or indirectly, had knowledge/was involved with 9-11!

Why are you bringing up "the FBI" had foreknowledge too?! There are plenty of people who think it was LIHOP, and the FBI having foreknowledge lends credence to that, but it is NOT what we were discussing. You said:

I agree that people who claim Israel was behind 9/11 are antisemites. Where he say this?

And I have provided you with examples of HIS saying Israel, directly or indirectly, had knowledge/was involved with 9-11! This MEANS he BELIEVES Israel WAS INVOLVED with 9-11! Therefore, by your own admission, "I agree that people who claim Israel was behind 9/11 are antisemites," this author is anti-Semitic!

[dameocrat]

134. I don't believe in lihop but they did track the hijackers

foreknowledge is not the same as saying the perpetrated 9/11.

[Colorado Blue]

81. Holy shit. Do you believe this? nt

[not systems]

88. Are you talking about...

these?

http://www.antiwar.com/israeli-files.php

If so do think the antiwar.com is anti-semitic in general?

If so why?

Because of this pages contents or some specific article?

[dameocrat]

55. and let's not forget Aipac supported and lobbied for the

war. It is lobbying for more war in Iran and Syria as well. Just read their website.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&as_qdr=all&q=Iraq+site%3Aaipac.org&btnG=Search

Mixing it up with the truly antisemitic allegation that Israel caused Sept 11 is desengenuous. There is no doubt Israel lobbied for the war however. That is just fact.

[Just Me]

11. Whoopsie. What was in that material?

Who has been misinforming/manipulating our good doctor?

Something is very amiss, here. :shrug:

[wryter2000]

16. That's my question, Just Me

Before I take a side here, I need to know exactly what the material said. As others have said, criticizing Israel's policies isn't anti-semitic if the policies are wrong. But we all know that anti-semites are out to get Israel.

I tend to trust Dean because 1) I love the man :evilgrin: but more important, 2) he doesn't apologize when he's in the right.

It's possible that a few misguided people were handing that stuff out, and as others have suggested, they might have been planted by KKKarl.

[Colorado Blue]

78. I think people better think real hard about KKKarl, and how

he put a Jew named "The Prince of Darkness" on the tube to talk about Iraq.

Hello?

And, I do not understand how people can call the Bush family Nazis, going back to Prescott Bush and his involvement in the industries of Germany, and then turn about and declare that The Jews Are Running Washington.

Nazis and Jews don't mix.

[KoKo]

25. Doesn't anyone have a copy of what was passed out? Some DU'ers

were at the hearing and Pitt was blogging. Why should we take AP or Milbank's word on what was in that literature.

Surely there is a copy? How many people were passing it out? Just one or the several that Milbank implies.

:shrug:

[Just Me]

29. Well, there's certainly a consistent pattern of sabotage by both.

That's pretty evident. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the good doctor was intentionally mislead and set up.

[Finder]

17. The US Liberty attack.

Same reason Congress refuses to investigate the attack on the Liberty by Israelis.

The US being the ONLY ally of Israel puts us in a tough spot.

[Coastie for Truth]

69. Check your facts

Read CAPT A. Jay Cristol, "The Liberty Incident" and CDR Lloyd Bucher, "Bucher:My Story"

This is being kept alive by the arch conservative former Congressman Paul Findley and by the one Liberty officer in Joe Corsi's-John O'Neill's "Swift Boast Veterans foir the Truth" James Ennes, and Allison Weir. They are not-so innocent dupes of the Chief Of Naval Intelligence's deadly spin machine.

The Chief of Naval Intelligence screwed up Liberty - didn't tell the operating forces or the Israelis that Liberty was there, even denied that it was there. Chief of Naval Intelligence put out a cover story that the ship was a "false flagged Russian ship" and then another cover story that the ship was a "false flagged Egyptian troop carrier."

Then, just eight short months later the Chief of Naval Intelligence screwed up Pueblo the same way - didn't tell the operating forces, or the South Koreans or the Japanese that Pueblo was there.

The "truth" about Liberty is in both:
1. CAPT A. Jay Cristol, "The Liberty Incident"
2. CDR Lloyd Bucher, "Bucher:My Story"
and also alluded to in the report on Pueblo.


Why am I so concerned -- BECAUSE IN 1945 MY DAD'S "NAVAL INTELLIGENCE" RECON PBY CATALINA WAS LOST AT SEA - AND THE INTELLIGENCE TYPES SAID THAT HE AND HIS CREW WERE IN AUSTRALIA. IT WAS PURE SERENDIPITY - AND A GREATER FORCE - THAT HE AND HIS CREW WERE SIGHTED AND SAVED BY ANOTHER US SHIP -- THE INTELLIGENCE ASSHOLES SAID HE WAS IN AUSTRALIA ---UNTIL HE AND HIS CREW MADE IT BACK TO THE TENDER. And shortly after the Pueblo was captured by the North Koreans, my dad said "Same kind of Naval Intelligence screw up - who will those illegitmati (he didn't use that term) blame for this one?"

[BurtWorm]

19. Does anyone know what the material actually said?

Did it really say Israel was behind 9/11? Or was it more in line with what McGovern was saying, which was essentially virtually a direct quote of the PNAC/neo-con agenda?

[Finder]

22. this thread has some info

which may be related.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3886762

[geek tragedy]

21. The "Israel made us do it" nonsense is a meme used by anti-semitic

paleocons who want to blame all of our nation's crimes on a Jewish conspiracy.

Because the US would NEVER invade another country unless it was serving the interest of those pesky Jews.

Good for Dr. Dean--he was right to call out these idiots out.

[drdon326]

23. You noticed that too......

did you read all the posts here?

freightening.

[Al-CIAda]

28. "made us do it' IS nonsense. It was 'done' in concert, willingly and

eagerly, as per the PNAC directive.

I know, lets pretend the entire neocon crowd isn't attached to the Likud Party in any way. Pay no attention to Larry Franklin, etc. either. Nevermind all the spies, associations, and conflicts of interest. To point them out would be 'hateful'.

[Sather Gate]

30. Israel-PNAC-neocon Connection

Aaaaamen.

[geek tragedy]

31. Did the 'Zionists' also tell Bush to suck up to Saudi Arabia?

There are plenty of reasons why the US went to war against Iraq that had nothing to do with Israel.

The whole "hijacked by Zionists" crap is just warmed-over Protocols language.

[Warren Stupidity]

35. Strawman argument

I don't think we are claiming that the administration was 'hijacked by zionism'. Instead the claim, clearly stated in the PNAC document, and in the original post, is that Israeli Likud government and the Bush Cabal are working together to establish military domination of the Middle East, and that the attack on Iraq was part of their plan. Actually this isn't even arguable. It is in the goddamn PNAC documents. It is simply a fact.

You've attempted to turn this into race-baiting by inserting your own language "hijacked by zionists" into this. That is dishonest, and I think you know that.

[geek tragedy]

38. What does the US seeking to establish military dominance have to do with

Israel? How is Israel to blame for that?

What is it with white guys whose conspiracy theories always involve Jews?

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[geek tragedy]

44. Criticizing Israel for what Israel does is not anti-semitic. Criticizing

Israel for what the United States does arguably is.

[trebizond]

54. well put

[Warren Stupidity]

58. So I guess that the answer is no.

You have not read the PNAC documents, you are not familiar with the political positions of key players in the US neocon establishment, you basically don't know what you are talking about.

Try here: http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/spheresInfluence.html
pretty good summary page of resources on our neocons from a very reputable source.

[Colorado Blue]

79. I have read them. They are academic documents. Most of

the people who worked on them weren't Jewish.

They were IDEAS. They have no power.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, and the people who put them into power - THEY have juice.

Israel, population 6 million, no resources except her people, and the rest of the worlds 13 million Jews, aren't even on the same map with these people.

Get serious. There are real threats out there, serious threats. While you're focusing on Jews, the Nazis are running off with the US.

Real Nazis.

Not that they had anything on these antisemitic conspiracy theories.

FOR SHAME.

How do you think the pogroms began? With crap like this.

Bigotry.

[Colorado Blue]

84. I have read them. They're IDEAS. THEY don't have power.

The multinational corporations and the heavy financial hitters, like the Walmart guys, Big Oil, the automobile, petrochemical, aviation and defense industries - THEY have power.

You're looking at the wrong people, and drawing inferences from the presence of a few names that sound Jewish.

I think that's disgusting.

And, my ex-father in-law was general track, USAF. He went to War College, they game shit like this ALL THE TIME. This is NORMAL. This is what governments do, especially governments built on the imperial model, which this one is.

Don't blame the Jews for the fact that the US has inherited the mantle of the British Empire. And don't blame the US for doing what nations do when unopposed: grabbing money, power and resources.

Now, I gave up my car in 1978. If you are serious about changing this nation, you will join me in trying to get a grip on our energy dependency.

And you will join me in recognizing our REAL enemies, which are the big multinationals that have NO loyalty to ANY flag, any creed, except money and power. We can't fight them by chasing Jews around, like a bunch of bigoted Czarist Russian peasants.

That makes us victims too, to KKKarl Rove and the grandson of Prescott Bush.

Look HIM up.

[Coastie for Truth]

104. PNAC and AEI may have some fronts with Jewish surnames

but they are funded by the Scaifes and the Coors and the Murchisons and the Pews and the Olins, etc., etc., etc. -- and those good "liberals" (yeah) who are such good altruistic friends of liberal causes and Israel.

They use and throw away.

[dameocrat]

61. That would be true if folks like Richard Perle didn't work for

both governments as well as the PNAC, and they weren't making American Foriegn Policy. See his A Clean Break:
A New Strategy for Securing the Realm http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm

[Colorado Blue]

80. Holy shit. You know what? This is straight up antisemitic

crap.

Accusing people of double agency, conspiracy, it's straight out of the "Protocols", it's disgusting.

And I repeat: a conspiracy which is all over the internet, like those silly documents, is no conspiracy.

Ridiculous and shameful.

Dean is right.

I'm embarrassed to have to be discussing this. Honest to g*d I never thought I'd live to see the day.

This is AMERICA, not Nazi Germany.

And worse, while everybody's out playing Get the Jew, the REAL villains are sitting in their offices scoring on oil at $58.00 a barrel and climbing.

Not only racist, but DUMB.

[dameocrat]

108. Richard Perle's own writing is antisemitic?

come off it. Richard Perle says he wants this and if I point that out it is antisemitic? I don't get it?

[Colorado Blue]

117. No. The whole conspiracy theory thing, scapegoating Jews

and/or Israel for the Bush Administration's errors and crimes - which date back, in origin, to the Reagan Administration, is bad news.

Trying to inflate a few policy papers into a full blown conspiracy - when the very nature of conspiracy means SECRET - isn't logical. Morever, it is only the Jewish members of PNAC or the Jewish Neocons who are accused of undue influence, and only the Jewish state which is supposed to be running Washington.

Think about that. I mean sit down and THINK ABOUT IT.

This very seriously is like something out of Czarist Russia.

Also, it's illogical, not to mention that it's shredding the Left. It's making us look like stupid, intolerant, fools. Is that our goal?

It's dangerous and it's deflecting attention from the REAL players in this war: Cheney, Bush I and II, Rove, Rumsfeld, Baker, and the big bucks corporate and personal donors who put them into office along with the Republican majority in Congress. And, it should be mentioned, promoting aluminum hat theories about 9/11 completely misses the fact that al Qaeda is a very real entity, presently engaged in killing countless innocent people in Iraq, including our own. They are trying to agitate against the peace process in Israel/Palestine, and demanding jihad instead of democratic reform.

This can't help people. It can only kill, maim and bereave.

They too, were armed and empowered by the Reagan Administration - paid for by Saudi Arabian money. And I suggest they are a REAL enemy.

We would be better served by focusing on the Bush family, their history, the interaction of the giant multinational corporations with government, and the true nature of the oil industry, and the utter dependence of the global economy on oil and petrochemicals.

We'd be better off focusing on the fragile condition of Saudi Arabia, upon whose oil we are so dependent - and whose money is going to fund the very people we're trying to fight - than by trying to pin this war on the Israelis or on American Jews.

Unless, of course, the desired effect is to return us all to days of darkness, and turn this country into a mirror of Nazi Germany.

[dameocrat]

119. I never said it was a conspiracy. You did.

This is Perle's public writing, so I agree it is not a conspiracy. Furthermore the term "scapegoating" would suggest that I am lying about what Richard Perle wrote in which case you are making a conspiracy theory about me. Did I make Richard Perle write that?

[Jim Sagle]

103. And saying Israel MADE us do it or CONNED us into doing it is even more

so.

No one conned the Bush/Cheney/Halliburton/Rice/Chevron/Rumsfeld/Searle gang into anything.

[Al-CIAda]

52. I think that guy is hopeless -or intentionally obtuse. n/t

[Frederik]

43. You're the one who's talking about Jews

[geek tragedy]

45. Yes, because now it's a Jewish state that's involved in a conspiracy

to hijack our foreign policy instead of "the Jews." :sarcasm:

Substitute "Israel" and "Zionists" for "Jews" and you have the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

I'm not fooled by the code language.

[Frederik]

51. I think it's wrong to assume

that people talk in code language. Sometimes they do, more often they don't.

[dameocrat]

62. The protocols were a forgery

The PNAC is real. The neocons don't deny being party of it, and they aren't all Jewish. Many are fundies.

[dameocrat]

60. Oil

There is a pipeline being built from Iraq to Haifa. http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/conspiracy_theory/fullstory.asp?id=235 It isn't just a theory, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&as_qdr=all&q=Iraq+site%3Aaipac.org&btnG=Search that Israel supported the war, and I don't have a gripe against all Jews.

[Colorado Blue]

85. That's a MYTH. The possibility was floated but there is NO

pipeline being built. The Jordanians won't allow it.

How dumb do you think the oil companies are? Such a pipeline would get blown up.

And any refinery at Haifa would be a HUGE target for terrorists.

Maybe SOMEDAY, that might work, but in this climate, I really don't think so.

The REAL pipeline is to go through Turkey. And there is already a pipeline through Syria. And another is being built from Turkmenistan south through Pakistan and India, and yet ANOTHER is going west from the Caspian Sea, to the Mediterranean, via Turkey.

Al Jazeera is doing its absolutely damndest to fuck up Israel and the US.

Iran won't let them broadcast anymore because they're stirring up trouble there, among the Arabs.

Hello??????

[Coastie for Truth]

90. Bullshit! You may think there is such a pipeline

Al Jazeera may say so - I am in the friggin energy industry (have been for over 30 of the last over 40 years) -- and I can't find anything about it in any legitimate energy industry industry publications.

And, if your going to post a general link to some cites about AIPAC in google -- try this and the . While we're posting irrelevant bull-- try or or the Bush and House of Saud as in Silverado S & L.

[newyorican]

96. Iraq-to-Haifa oil pipeline could spur economic rebirth

JERUSALEM -- With Baghdad effectively in American hands, Israel and Jordan are testing the political waters to see whether the Haifa-Mosul pipeline could once again pump oil from Iraq to Israel's major port city.

According to a well-placed Israeli source close to the Jordanians, the deal, which is partially contingent upon progress on the Palestinian front, could open a new chapter in the cold peace between Israel and Jordan.

Infrastructure Minister Yosef Paritsky said April 9 that he has ordered his ministry to conduct a feasibility study for reopening and possibly widening the 350 mile pipeline. He estimated that oil coming straight from Iraq could reduce Israeli energy prices by 15 to 20 percent providing a much-needed break for the flagging economy.

read more of this extremely easy to find story here...

[Coastie for Truth]

99. Jump Over to "Peak Oil" and "Environment & Energy"

1. Iraq to Haifa Pipeline
2. Tar Sands in the Galilee
3. Natural gas deposits off of Tel Aviv-Jaffa
4. Oil and Natural Gas 15,000 feet under the Dead Sea
5.

I'm in the industry - and I think Yuko is a lower risk then that pipeline. By the way - it was described in Engdahl as having been proposed right after WW1, and there was a pipeline for a few years at one time.

When the pipeline is finally built and in operation, well "I have a dream ..." and the "lamb shall lie with the lion..." ---- Palestinians willwalk in the streets of Haifa and Israelis will walk in the streets of Hebron, and the three faiths will celebrate on Temple Mount (maybe presided over by the UU's who teach common core of the religions of the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims - see Buehrens and Church "The Chosen Faith")

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day the state of Alabama, whose governor's lips are presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification, will be transformed into a situation where little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls and walk together as sisters and brothers. I have a dream today. I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together. This is our hope. This is the faith with which I return to the South. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

and

The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat; The calf, the young lion, and the fattened calf together; and a little child will lead them.
-Isaiah 11:6

and

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
-Isaiah 65-25

From your lips to God's ears.

[newyorican]

105. You may be correct...

in that Yuko is a better gamble. However, your original assertion was:

Bullshit! You may think there is such a pipeline

Al Jazeera may say so - I am in the friggin energy industry (have been for over 30 of the last over 40 years) -- and I can't find anything about it in any legitimate energy industry industry publications.

Obviously, your "energy industry" credentials leave much to be desired if you were unaware of the existence of the 8 inch pipeline from Mosul to Haifa. It is with some amusement I see your backpedalling response to the facts I presented laden with unrelated reading assignments and quotes from MLK and scripture. But then again, I'm easily amused.

In addition Colorado Blue asserted:

That's a MYTH. The possibility was floated but there is NO pipeline being built. The Jordanians won't allow it.

How dumb do you think the oil companies are? Such a pipeline would get blown up.

And any refinery at Haifa would be a HUGE target for terrorists.

Now since she doesn't boast any "energy industry" credentials, I'll give her a break. But the information was extremely easy to find (google "haifa+pipeline+oil").

As to the existence of a refinery at Haifa:

Eilat Ashkelon Pipeline Co. Ltd.

Note the link on the page called: "Pipelines Map" It clearly shows a refinery at Haifa.

[Coastie for Truth]

112. There "IS" No pipeline

There are the mortal remains of a pre-1948 pipeline.

There are plans (I would call them pipe dreams) to build an Iraq-Haifa pipeline.

Dameocrat said "There is a pipeline being built from Iraq to Haifa." "IS BEING" - present tense (gerund). And dameocrat cited al-jazeera at http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/conspiracy_theory/fullstory.asp?id=235 to support the assertion that "There is a pipeline being built from Iraq to Haifa."

The pipelines of Eilat Ashkelon Pipeline Co. Ltd. are an alternative to the Suez canal - carry oil wholly within Israel from Eilat to Mediterranean ports and distribution centers. Not tied in to any pipelines from any Arab countries.

I had a "tourist's tour" of the Haifa refinery some 25 years ago. At one time it was processing Iranian crude that came in by tanker. After the revolution in Iran they obtained crude from other sources - remember crude is fungible - and if you pay "spot price" it is available to anybody.

There is no operating Iraq-Haifa pipeline.

Buy Yukos.

[newyorican]

141. Which is it?

"There "IS" No pipeline"

or

"There is no operating Iraq-Haifa pipeline."

The 2 statements are contradicting each other (in the same post!).

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newyorican]

97. Israel seeks pipeline for Iraqi oil

Plans to build a pipeline to siphon oil from newly conquered Iraq to Israel are being discussed between Washington, Tel Aviv and potential future government figures in Baghdad.
The plan envisages the reconstruction of an old pipeline, inactive since the end of the British mandate in Palestine in 1948, when the flow from Iraq's northern oilfields to Palestine was re-directed to Syria.

Now, its resurrection would transform economic power in the region, bringing revenue to the new US-dominated Iraq, cutting out Syria and solving Israel's energy crisis at a stroke.

Did I say extremely easy to find, yes I did. Read more...

[Coastie for Truth]

101. Putting your 401(k) into BP and Shell?

I'm in the industry - I'm not buying BP or Shell - heck, I still stuck with GM

[newyorican]

98. U.S. checking possibility of pumping oil from northern Iraq to Haifa, via

The United States has asked Israel to check the possibility of pumping oil from Iraq to the oil refineries in Haifa. The request came in a telegram last week from a senior Pentagon official to a top Foreign Ministry official in Jerusalem.

The Prime Minister's Office, which views the pipeline to Haifa as a "bonus" the U.S. could give to Israel in return for its unequivocal support for the American-led campaign in Iraq, had asked the Americans for the official telegram.

The new pipeline would take oil from the Kirkuk area, where some 40 percent of Iraqi oil is produced, and transport it via Mosul, and then across Jordan to Israel. The U.S. telegram included a request for a cost estimate for repairing the Mosul-Haifa pipeline that was in use prior to 1948. During the War of Independence, the Iraqis stopped the flow of oil to Haifa and the pipeline fell into disrepair over the years.

Did I say...ahhh, forget it. Just read more here...

[Coastie for Truth]

102. Putting your 401(k) into Shell and BP?

[dameocrat]

106. Those weren't cites about aipac. They were from aipac's website

I don't seee what Bush's relationship with Saudi Arabia has to do with this. I see I am getting dos attacks again. I have iptables set up for them, just in case whomever is doing it is interested.

[Coastie for Truth]

113. That's the problem

you are confusing AIPAC with APIPAC.

[dameocrat]

118. No those links in support of the war were from aipac.org

not from apipac. Here is that sme link again. Note they were all from aipac. It is a google search of their website. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&as_qdr=all&q=Iraq+site%3Aaipac.org&btnG=Search

[Coastie for Truth]

147. I AM A "GENERALISSIMO" - AND I OUTRANK A MERE "GENERAL"

Secretary Powell's son, Michael, promoted me from being a mere and lowly "General" to an , that's above a mere lowly General. So, you will give me the respect due to an Extra, above a Mere General in the -->
<><><> including the .

<>

and as an "Extra, Above a Mere General" in the National Security Establishment of the FCC and the Department of Homeland Security -- it is my professional opinion that Israel should withdraw from the OT and Gaza.

And as to anyone criticizing Zionists and Zionism, Israelis, American Jews (even Orthodox and Lubavitchers) - I WILL APPLY THE STANDARDS APPLIED TO WHITE PEOPLE WHO CRITICIZED RACIAL MINORITIES IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA..

[dameocrat]

151. He is answerable to people who raise money for his campaign

many of whom are fundamentalist christian zionists, and supporter of the settlements.

[Coastie for Truth]

153. Who is "He"

and how are the "fundamentalist Christian Zionists" any friends of the Jewish people - American or Israeli (or British or French or Australian)- These "fundamentalist Christian Zionists" not only are no friends of any Jews - they seek mass (pardon the pun) conversions - like the Inquisition and the forced conversion of the kidnapped child Edgardo Mortara by the Papal soldiers of Pius IX.

Gimme a break - these "fundamentalist Christian Zionists" want the forced conversion of Jews as soon as their Messiah returns. They don't speak any actual Jewish people. And the Jewish people don't speak for them.

Your innuendos are frankly insulting.

"Coastie"
Generalissimo FCC/ARES/RACES/CITIZENS CORPS

<><><>

[Colorado Blue]

77. Oh fer Christ's sake. Some conspiracy - all over the internet,

where everybody can read about it.

The nature of conspiracy is SILENCE. Not a piece of paper which is common currency, which is wide open to perusal and debate, and which is totally misleading as to the true state of world affairs, the primary goals of the US, and who REALLY has power.

It is NOT the world's 13 million Jews. We're just the all time, A#1 scapegoat, Rove and the Bushes know that, and you guys are buying into their spin.

Unbelievable.

[dameocrat]

111. Richard Perle's own words are a conspiracy

We made Richard Perle write "A Clean Break" uh huh! That is a real conspiracy theory!

[Warren Stupidity]

165. pretty silly huh?

The documents are out there, authored by our neocon elites. Our domestic neocon leaders are in large part also hardcore likudnik 'Greater Israel' militants. This is an indisputable fact, a fact which they themselves wouldn't even deny, but if we dare to speak it, we are 'jew haters'. This is typical of the censorship in the USA when it comes to our relationship with Israel. Nobody is allowed to ask the question: 'whose interest are we serving here'? Nobody is allowed to speak out against anything done by any Israeli government, despite the fact that Israelis speak out against their government all the time, and that Israel is as deeply divided politically as we are. Nobody is allowed to question our policies that involve Israel. Any such questions are, according to the current wisdom, clearly anti-semitic.

I'll ask again: why are we working to destabilize Lebanon and overthrow the Syrian regime? How does this serve our interests?

And as a follow up: how has our toppling of the Iraqi government and the subsequent disastrous occupation of Iraq helped our strategic interests in the region?

And finally, given the results of todays Iranian elections, in which the Iranian reform movement suffered total defeat, in what respect has the Bush doctrine brought change for the better to the region?

[dameocrat]

56. It isn't really a meme

nobody said they made us, but the neocon along with aipac and the pnac lobbied for the war.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&as_qdr=all&q=Iraq+site%3Aaipac.org&btnG=Search

[Behind the Aegis]

115. so, neocon = Jew or Israeli? n/t

[dameocrat]

146. Certainly not

One many fundamentalist christians are neocons. Two most Jews were against the war and are opposed to settlements, so they aren't neocons. How you could derive a strawman like that from Aipac's own statements and lobbying efforts on behalf of the war is beyond me? Most Jews aren't in Aipac either.

[Colorado Blue]

76. Amen. There is no greater threat to America than BIGOTRY.

And that this should be coming down from the Left, supposedly the party of minority and individual rights, is just SICKENING.

I can't BELIEVE some the crap I'm reading on these threads.

[dingaling]

33. This is bullshit

I cannot imagine why politicians and other intellectuals literally pee in their pants at the mention of Israel. Why is Israel a forbidden topic in the mainstream. Does criticizing Israel (by a gentile) automatically make them anti-semetic. A jewish person critical of Israel is dubbed a self-hating jew. WTF. Viewing anything with an open mind helps one to understand it. If Israel (or the criticism of it) is a taboo topic, it will lessen our understanding of middle east issues. Mr. McGovern said what he had to say. The discussion should be on the merits of what he said. Israel is a country like any other and should be criticized like any other.

[Colorado Blue]

82. If that were the case, there would be no problem. But, when

American Jews and Israel are accused of running the most powerful entity on the planet, maybe the most seriously powerful nation the world has ever known, that's BIGOTRY.

And accusing people of plotting, of double-agency, of sneaky conspiracies - when in fact everything involved with the AIPAC, the Pax Americana dox, so forth, are wide open to debate and investigation - THAT'S BIGOTRY.

That's classic "Get the Jew".

And, it's distracting people from the REAL villains - the giant multinationals that run this planet, let alone the US government.

Did it occur to anybody that that's the point? Everybody's out chasing Jews while the big boys run off with the cheese.

It's not only disgusting, it's SILLY.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Wow!

I don't know what is worse. The comments made there, or some of the ones I am seeing here. :dilemma:

[sofaman1]

74. Pretty scary stuff..I agree

[Just Me]

40. Question: if our own national security interests are being set aside,...

,...even sacrificed in order to advance the political agenda of another nation, what would that be called?

This article seems to me to be an intentional distraction from one of the core issues revealed on Thursday by Ray McGovern: O.I.L.

Those who jump on the "criticizing either the neoCON or Likud policies are being anti-semitic" wagon cause me great suspicion.

[Colorado Blue]

86. Let me ask you this: because the Bush Administration was

idiotic, refusing to listen to Clinton or to Clarke, who'd been begging them to pay attention to al Qaeda, and because Bush was too stupid to pay attention to the violence in the middle east until it got really bad, this is Israel's fault?

Our national security problems were set in motion during the Reagan/Bush administration, when US policy in the Middle East became unbelievably surreal: arming Iran and Iraq, arming the mujeheddin who became al Qaeda, setting nation against nation - they gave chemical weapons to Saddam and used Israel to arm Iran!

And, they used bigtime Saudi money. Unger says they even helped fund shenanigans in Latin America. And remember Iran/Contra? Ollie North? Same outfit: the Reagan/Bush Administration.

Holy shit!

This isn't Israel's fault, it is the original Bush/Reagan's fault, and the same guys are still in power.

"House of Bush, House of Saud" is a must read - Michael Moore used it as the basis for his film Farenheit 9/11. It lays this all out. It's been decades in the making.

[trebizond]

42. Good for Howard--I think he's absolutely right

[drdon326]

48. WOW....

NICE TO SEE SOMEONE WHO GETS IT.

[Colorado Blue]

83. Thank heavens. A sane person. nt

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newyorican]

59. That's news to me...

First, the European Union has recently stated unequivocably that conflating events in Israel to the Nazis is bigoted.

last I heard, the resolutions acceptance was somewhat less than "unequivocable".

Anti-Semitism resolution falters on xenophobia

A conference on racism sponsored by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) in Cordoba, Spain failed to approve a joint declaration condemning "racism, anti-Semitism and xenophobia" yesterday after some delegates demanded that xenophobia appear before anti-Semitism in the resolution's text.

Delegates from Great Britain, the Netherlands and Belgium demanded the change at the two-day conference, which opened yesterday. No agreement was reached yesterday, but a source close to the negotiations said the declaration would probably read in accordance with the demand of the delegates from the three countries.

read more here...

Of course this was last Monday and the situation could have changed in the interim...

[dameocrat]

63. Let's not forget many leftwing Israelis are by this standard

antisemites, so we should be thankful this resolution tanked. Avi Shlame and the brave reporter who produced the Documentary "Land of the Settlers" are by this standard antisemitc. I'm giving Howard the benefit of the doubt here, because the allegations also involved Israel causing Sept 11 which obviously is absurd, but I am saddened he is too timid to acknowledge the fact that right wing zionits pushed the Iraq war.

[newyorican]

65. "right wing zionits pushed the Iraq war"

By gosh why would you think such a thing?

Israel says US will attack Iraq in May

Israel Says War on Iraq Would Benefit the Region

Attack Iraq soon, Sharon aide says

Israel Urges US to Attack Iraq: "Sooner, Rather than Later"

Israel To U.S.: Don't Delay Iraq Attack

Cheney Admits US will attack Iraq 'for Israel's sake'

AIPAC is pushing for the USA to attack Iran for Israel

Israel says Iran close to having a nuclear bomb

Israel warns on Iranian "nightmare"

Sharon stirs up conflict with Syria and Iran

Iran, Libya, Syria are next?

Israel instructs America to attack Iran and Syria

ISRAEL DEMANDS IRAN BE ATTACKED NEXT AFTER IRAQ

Syria's Next

War is not in U.S. interest

Sharon Recruits US Mercenaries Against Syria

Sharon Wants U.S. Action Against Syria

Iraqi WMD 'possibly in Syria'

Sharon Says US Should Also Disarm Iran, Libya and Syria

Well if you are asking for a few links...

[dameocrat]

67. Thanks for the links

It shortens these tedious threads considerably when we back our statements up with fact. Let's add aipac's own commentary on the matter, googled from their website.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&as_qdr=all&q=Iraq+site%3Aaipac.org&btnG=Search

Note how they are pushing for more war with Iran and Syria.

[newyorican]

68. Zionits?

Zionitwits? Hmmm...If there is still a sense of humor hereabouts this has potential...

[not systems]

71. Not likely...

there is a better chance of finding humor at a morticians
conventions unless of course "pancakes" are involved, if
so then let the good times roll.

[Coastie for Truth]

93. If I played word games with Latino or Hispanic terms

I would be banned - and you would be the first one to "Alert"

[newyorican]

95. I don't alert...

as a matter of course. Maybe 5 times in the last 5 years, mostly early on during battles with those that are dearly departed. (Jemnote, Muddleoftheroad, Gabyspoppy and maybe MikeGalos)

I have learned that questionable posts that are allowed to stand can be useful when someone needs to get spanked.

I played a little with a misspelling. If it offends, it will be struck. Good thing I'm not a professional comedian. I'd probably starve.

Added on edit:
PS: My username is the result of wordgames.

[Colorado Blue]

89. Oh, come ON.

Pravda? World Socialist Website?

"Israel instructs America?" "Israel demands?"

These headlines are really insane. But nothing less than I'd expect.

I really get tired of this. One day, we are gifted with Jude Wassinki, Reagan's supply side economist.

Another, we get Paul Findlay. Just the other day, The John Birch Society. Mid-east REALITIES?????

Hatred is a terrible thing.

[newyorican]

91. Sources:

In order:

Pravda
Globalpolicy.org
NYDailyNews
TheTruthseeker.co.uk
CBSNews
Middleeast.org
AIPAC.org
BigNewsNetwork
Swissinfo.org
wsws.org
WorldNetDaily.com
Theinsider.org
ArutzSheva.org
USAToday.com
Counterpunch.org
Newsmax.com
News24.com
Costalpost.com

Hatred is a terrible thing. So is willful ignorance. I don't recommend either.

[Colorado Blue]

92. Right. And anybody who buys the idea that Ariel Sharon is

running the United States needs to go out and buy a clue.

Or better yet, a copy of the Wall Street Journal.

[newyorican]

94. At no time...

have I asserted that Arial the Bulldozer is running the United States.

How you have arrived at that point defies logic.

[geek tragedy]

122. Only four hate sites on there . . . not bad.

:sarcasm:

No suprise that 'anti-Zionists' get their news about Jews from hate sites. None at all.

[dameocrat]

127. I've always suspected AIPAC AND ArutzSheva

:evilgrin:

[geek tragedy]

132. I should clarify-- only four Jew-hating sites. eom

[Behind the Aegis]

135. but, but, but...

If it were quotes from "frontpage" or "JPost," we would hear nothing but "they are right-wing sites" not "fit to line a birdcage."

[geek tragedy]

139. The only rightwing sources that are quoted around here are the ones

that hate Jews.

[dameocrat]

143. AruzSheva is right wing zionist website like Frontpage and

Jpost. Not all right wing zionist feel a need to obfuscate their prowar agenda.

[Behind the Aegis]

144. Define "zionist" n/t

[newyorican]

148. Oh yes!

Let's discuss ANYTHING except for the topic of this sub-thread.

Define "avoidance" or "cognitive dissonance".

[Behind the Aegis]

149. You seem to know better than me. n/t

[newyorican]

140. You're wrong...

but don't let that stop you from not discussing the issue...

But there is a 12-step program of sorts to find your way out of the hole you've dug for yourself.

It starts and ends with proving what you assert.

www.hatedirectory.com

Find 4 of the sources I used in the hate directory. Should be childs play as you so positively asserted there were four hate sites in my sourcing.

If you cannot prove what you assert you have 2 choices. (1) Admit you made shit up or (2) be unrecalcitrant about your false assertions and hope nobody notices.

Not quite 12 steps, but I did say "sort of".

[geek tragedy]

152. Actually, I'm right and I'm glad to educate you regarding those sites

Hate site #1:

http://www.coastalpost.com/01/2/15.htm

<snip>
Details of the increasingly brutal Israeli Occupation have for years been hidden from the American people by our Jewish-controlled media. . . . On Jan. 19, Clinton packed his bags and exited the White House, leaving behind a disgusting eight years of abject subservience to a Jewish lobby and the term "honest broker" an international joke. . . Washington's collaboration with the Zionists began with the Truman Administration when Harry, catching a Pullman train on his presidential campaign, was handed a suitcase full of Jewish money. . . . The power of Jewish money in Washington as well as our State capitals has been enhanced by the ability of their lobby. . . Thus the highest Court in the land waffled before Jewish money.
<snip>

Hate site #2:

http://thetruthseeker.co.uk/category.asp?ID=15

Hate site #3:

http://www.theinsider.org/mailing/article.asp?id=1249

<snip>
An insider has exposed a plot by hospitals in Britain to ban Bibles from hospital wards. Wealthy hospital bosses are refusing to admit that they are submitting to demands from influential Jewish groups who represent the powerful Jewish lobby in Britain.
<snip>

Hate site #4

http://www.middleeast.org/archives/1998_09_08.htm

Headline: "Jewish Lobby Fans Flames of 'New War.'"

http://middleeast.org/archives/8-9-97.htm

<snip>Never in history has there been such an Israeli-captured President in the White House as Bill Clinton. The Israeli/Jewish lobby set out to defeat George Bush, quite literally infiltrated the Clinton headquarters in Little Rock with its people, pushed huge amounts of "soft money" at both Clinton and the Democracy Party, and sure enough their man Bill has done everything they ever dreamed ever since.
.
Bill's latest payoff to the Israelis and their American Jewish cadre is to make a former Israeli lobby official -- a man who was an Australian citizen when Bill was elected President, a man who lived in Israel and served in the Israeli army -- Assistant Secretary of State (that's of the UNITED STATES mind you!) for the Middle East!
.
It's not inordinate Chinese money and influence in American politics the Congress should be investigating, it's how Israel manipulates American politics with the help of some key Americans (most of them Jewish), who are in fact, however distasteful it is to say it, "dually loyal".
<snip>

No need to apologize for posting links to racist sites--I am confident that you will no longer view these sites as credible sources of information and analysis.

[newyorican]

157. Sorry..

but you are failing (or flailing) miserably.

Searched the hate directory for Costalpost.com - 0 hits.

Searched the hate directory for thetruthseeker.co.uk - 0 hits.

Searched the hate directory for theinsider.org - 0 hits

Searched the hate directory for middleeast.org - 0 hits


Forgive me if I give the hate directory more weight than your perceptions.

Now, about the rest of those links and the, as of yet, unaddressed issue?

[geek tragedy]

159. Let's see. You deny that a HOLOCAUST-DENIAL SITE is a hate site

and you think I'm failing? You ignore BLATANTLY RACIST language and say that I'm failing. Because they don't appear on one list?

What a pathetic, and predictable, response.

Give my regards to David Irving and your other fellow 'anti-zionists.'


Just for the record, you deny that the site that publishes articles like:

"Hitler Didn't Want World War"

and


"'Elders of Zion' Shape Our Culture"

and

"The Diminishing Number of Alleged Dead at Auschwitz"

is a hate site.

I hope you don't mind if I consider you to be indistinguishable from the sites you refuse to condemn.

[newyorican]

133. 19 links from 18 sources...

leaves you little else to say besides whining about two four of the sources and name-calling. 'Anti-Zionists' indeed. Might rise to the level of an insult if you knew what you were talking about.

In a debate that's called conceding the point. Collect your consolation prize on the way out.

[Colorado Blue]

136. My point about right wing sources is as follows:

Reading these guys will corrupt your brain.

No progressive should be unaware of that fact. They thrive on hatred, bigotry and dissension.

Dividing the Left is their GOAL.

Why play into their hands by buying into this shit? And why, in any case, espouse a bigoted point of view?

[geek tragedy]

138. The number of far-right and racist publications that get cited here

when the subject is either Israel or 911 is disturbing.

[Colorado Blue]

169. It does give one pause. It isn't difficult to find sources eager

to smear Jews.

What's difficult to believe is that progressives would seek them out.

What's MORE difficult to believe is that PROGRESSIVES would believe a word they say.

[Coastie for Truth]

174. Two of our DU progressives have named me a Neo Con for suporting Israel

-and by the standards that they apply - I consider it an honor.


"Coastie"
Generalissimo FCC/ARES/RACES/CITIZENS CORPS

<><><>

<>

[newyorican]

142. What about the rest of the links?

n/t

[dameocrat]

150. ARe they really unaware that Arutz Sheva is a paper run by

Israeli settlers themselves, and that the column you linked to was out of the horses mouth so to speak? Or are they just playing naif?

[Colorado Blue]

168. I'll tell you what. I've researched so many posts that

have graced our forum, and found out that they were misquotes of other articles, or taken completely out of context, or decked out with a screaming and innaccurate headline that alters the meaning of the article, that I now believe much that's posted is somehow tainted, second or third-hand at best, taken out of context or an outright misquote.

If I have time I'll back track the most recent set of screaming headlines. I shouldn't have to do this.

The article on Halevy was a perfect example. In the Nimmo piece, it was interpreted as "Israel wants to draft your kids" screaming headline, and it misquoted Halevy and the article, and al jazeera also fucked with the content, adding the inaccurate adjective "current" to Halevy's status as Mossad chief, when in fact he's been retired since 2003. After I backtracked to the original article in Ha'aretz, I found it was a quiet, thoughtful piece by an intelligent man, making realistic assessments of the challenges in the Middle East, that said absolutely nothing of the sort.

Why would anybody want to do that, to post a slanted, biased and innaccurate piece of trash like that?

Another example, the article about "The New Antisemitism" was framed by the reviewer in such a way that it included bigoted descriptions of Jewish lobbyists. By the time one fought one's way through the stereotypes of "muscular zionist lobbyists", it was difficult to see the thesis of the author's piece with any clarity. And, people already predisposed toward antisemitism would have had their bigotry reinforced. Another piece, when you clicked on the link, bore a screaming header: Zionists Have Taken Over the Government!!!

Come on! Is this Nazi Germany? Or what? Perhaps it would be wise to remember this: if Jews start being victimized, every other ethnic group or minority in this country will be next. I'd be real careful about starting that shit. As it is, it's a daily battle, in a democratic state, to maintain the balance between majority rule and minority rights. Even in America, it's still an uphill battle for many of us. After all the progress we've made in civil rights, why would we want to slide back into the past?

Two final points: people like Paul Findlay aren't hard to find. Anti-Jewish sentiment is part of our culture. Insecure people thrive on victimizing others, scapegoating, blaming, and historically the group they've chosen to assail have been the Jews.

In some people, this becomes a real hobby. Paranoia about Jews or anything Jewish - and by extension Israeli - has a long and dirty history in our world.

Giving these people a voice is wrong.

And, if a person has had a bad experience with a person from a particular country or culture or race, he/she shouldn't extend it to everybody from that group. That's stereotyping. And it victimizes the vast majority, who are innocent of harming you.

I myself have had plenty of bruising encounters with people, some brutally violent, simply because I live in a big city and worked for a long time in the entertainment world. Women are surprisingly vulnerable, even in our "civilized" world, and I am a minority on top of that, working in a male-dominated industry. But do I hate everybody from Greece because a Greek beat me up, and others tormented me because of my ethnic group and my profession? No. I love Greece, and would move there in a heartbeat - because my parents taught me not to be a bigot, and because by reaching out to that community when I was in frightened, in pain and needing help, I found many loving and beautiful people.

About headlines: people can write anything they want to. They can say, George Bush Orders Poodle To Squat On Wife's Head, and people would believe it.

Freedom of the press - it's a wonderful thing. That doesn't mean every word in a screaming headline is the truth, nor does it mean that every 24 point headline represents something truly important.

[geek tragedy]

137. If one is going to defend against the allegation that such theories are

anti-semitic, one should not support one's argument with articles by people who hate Jews.


Citing to filth sites like thetruthseeker only makes my argument for me.


Of course, nothing there proves that the US went to war BECAUSE of Israel.

[newyorican]

145. What about the rest of the links?

There is an issue as of yet not addressed. The only one stating the US went to war because of Israel is you.

The sub-thread started with "right wing zoinists zionists push for war".

I have provided ample documentation to back up and even extend the claim to the current leadership of Israel.

Either they did or they didn't. Put up or shut up.

[geek tragedy]

154. The entire point of the thread is whether saying that the US went to war

BECAUSE of Israel. Of course many in Israel wanted us to take Saddam out. So did the Mullahs of Iran.

[newyorican]

155. I see, conjunction problems...

The only person stating, erroneously, that this thread is about saying the US went to war BECAUSE of Israel is you.

The sub-thread topic is "right wing Zionists pushed for war", a topic I have expanded to include the current leadership in Israel.

The original post was about Howard Dean condemning some literature.

This is the last time I will correct you on this. Any further erroneous references from you on mis-labeling the issue will be obvious intentional misdirection and reveal your inability to adequately address the issue at hand (i.e. tossing in the white towel).

[geek tragedy]

156. Howard Dean called Ray McGovern's comments anti-semitic.

McGovern said that we invaded Iraq because of Israel. That is the ENTIRE point of the thread.

Posting articles about how Israelis wanted Saddam whacked proves nothing in that regard.

Glad that you admit that I was right and you were wrong about those racist sites you linked to.

[newyorican]

158. See #157

After that, perhaps you could force yourself to address the other links. They go somewhat further than Israelis wanting to "whack" Saddam. At your leisure, I've had enough for tonight.

[geek tragedy]

160. Given that you believe that Holocaust denial isn't a sign of racism

or hate speech, I've had enough of your 'anti-zionist' discussion as well.

[Colorado Blue]

87. Sorry, but you are misquoting him. It is utterly inappropriate

to be discussing the Nazis in a thread full of antisemitic blather.

[dameocrat]

109. You are the one that brought them up and you have done it

twice.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lithos]

100. A comment for all

Please consider and note the following.

* It is not anti-Semitic to discuss or criticize Israeli policy. It is anti-Semitic, however, to assume that all Jews are Israeli's or that Israel or Jews control US policy.

* Please consider that PNAC, and its arch-conservative think-tank parent, the AEI, have contacts and aspirations which really have little to do with ideologies such as Israeli nationalism. AEI's funding and loyalty derives from and is devoted to very large corporations. Many of these companies derive far more business from the Islamic world than Israel.

To focus only on the connections to Israel misses much of what is going on behind the scenes. Some of it is about oil, some of it is about using this as a wedge issue. All of it is about money and power.

* Much of what the AEI publishes either directly or indirectly thru child organizations or grant-holders are extremely carefully constructed thought pieces. They and other conservative think tanks such as the Heritage or Cato institute often mask lobbying efforts from their donors behind fake ideology. Note, I said lobbyists.

L-

[dameocrat]

110. I don't assume Jews are all Israelis

but it isn't antisemitic to point out the pnac and aei are right wing zionists, or that this is driving our policy in the middle east. They even admit it. The thing I linked to were documents they wrote. It is also about oil and us hegemoney, but if people have to deny they are motivated by support for the settlements when they flat out admit they are that is just absurd. I didn't make aipac write in support of the war or lobby for it.

[Coastie for Truth]

163. Thank you for your comment

My wife and I are going to a Peacenik type event at one of the local UU Churches this afternoon, and to a dinner meeting of our County Democratic Club (to the left of the County Democratic Committee) tomorrow.

As an NGO Emergency Responder, I will be participating in a county wide WMD exercise on 6/29 - and I have been invited to the "Hot Debrief" afterwards. That includes a free luncheon at one of the Frist family hospitals - plus a "Meet Senator Frist" mini-reception.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: cynicism After what I have seen in this thread, I an less hesitant about attending the "Meet Senator Frist" mini-reception. I plan to go to the "Meet Senator Frist" mini-reception. with an open mind to hear his positions about filibusters and advance directives and stem cell research, etc. I have learned from this thread not to dismiss anybody. So, I will open my mind to DOCTOR Frist. cynicism :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Warren Stupidity]

166. Great 4 strawmen

Much better than one. Enjoy tilting at the windmills you have constructed to fight against?

I'll refer you to this page as a reference to who our Cabal of neocons are: http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/spheresInfluence.html

Are you going to argue that the Christian Science Monitor is another hotbed of anti-semitic hate?

Note #3 in their list of top necon think tanks: JINSA, hmmmm.... what could that be?

The we get to #5 in their list, the IASPS - what could that be?

Now lets go over to the neocon publishing wing.

And the number 1 necon rag is: Commentary. "Today, Commentary advocates passionate support for Israel, and regime change in at least half a dozen countries deemed hostile to US and Israeli security and interests."

Number 4 - The New Republic. Like Commentary TNR has gone from democratic socialism with a cold war edge to neoconservative right wing imperialism, and of course "advocacy of a muscular, pro-Israel, pro-interventionist US foreign policy -coupled with its embrace of Democratic centrist domestic policies -make it a leading neocon voice." TNR is arguably the DLC house magazine.

Now go read all the Key Documents by these clowns and do get back to us to defend your thesis that a) we are a bunch of jew-haters, and b) there is no link between US-neocon imperialism and Israeli rightwing expansionist policies.

[Coastie for Truth]

171. Thank you, I accept your nomination as a Neo-NeoCon

The CSM cite has the following with respect to The New Republic

Today, its advocacy of a muscular, pro-Israel, pro-interventionist US foreign policy -coupled with its embrace of Democratic centrist domestic policies -make it a leading neocon voice.

I guess that makes me a "Neo-NeoCon" <1>

OKay--
And as to anyone criticizing Zionists and Zionism, Israelis, American Jews (even Orthodox and Lubavitchers) - I WILL APPLY THE STANDARDS APPLIED TO WHITE PEOPLE WHO CRITICIZED RACIAL MINORITIES IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA... I am in my 60's - I was there.

By my standards ...your innuendos are frankly insulting and may possibly border on racism.

"Coastie"
Generalissimo FCC/ARES/RACES/CITIZENS CORPS



<><><>

<>

Footnote:
<1> I guess a Neo-Neo Con is a "pro-choice, pro-stem cell research, protect SS by raising the income subject to the FICA tax, more $$ for schools, single payer universal health care, raise CAFE, adhere to Kyoto, support gay marriage, teach evolution, only post the "Ten Commandments" along with the Bill of Rights and Beatitudes and Hammurabi's Code" type of person who also supports a two state solution, and Jewish, Palestinian, Kurdish, Armenian, Chechen, Tibetan, Bosnian. etc, independent homelands - but who some appenders have chosen to classify as Neo-cons. Thank you - I accept the honor and privilege of being named a Neo-Neo Con

[Warren Stupidity]

175. just to be sure I understand

Any criticism of Israel is racism. Have I got that right?

[Coastie for Truth]

177. I shall apply the standards of the 1960's Civil Rights Era

As to anyone criticizing Zionists and Zionism, Israelis, American Jews (even Orthodox and Lubavitchers) - I WILL APPLY THE STANDARDS APPLIED TO WHITE PEOPLE WHO CRITICIZED RACIAL MINORITIES IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA... as they were applied to us "White Suburban Liberals" in the 1960's. I am in my 60's - I was there.

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coastie for Truth]

181. Courtesy, liberalism, and progressivism sure have gone to hell in 35 yrs

My append was:

177. I shall apply the standards of the 1960's Civil Rights Era

As to anyone criticizing Zionists and Zionism, Israelis, American Jews (even Orthodox and Lubavitchers) - I WILL APPLY THE STANDARDS APPLIED TO WHITE PEOPLE WHO CRITICIZED RACIAL MINORITIES IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA... as they were applied to us "White Suburban Liberals" in the 1960's. I am in my 60's - I was there.

to which the appender responded

18. OK Great

So basically you are going to be as irrational and racist as the worst features of the radical movement of the 60s. Rational discourse between you and me is at and end, and it was not me that ended it.

So behaving the way a courteous, good, politically correct, white liberal was expected to behave towards racial minorities in the 1960's and 1970's is now "irrational and racist as the worst features of the radical movement of the 60s."

Liberalism and progressivism sure has gone to hell in 35 years. :(

[not systems]

182. If you made it to ...

"rational discourse" at all consider your self lucky.

[bemildred]

107. 2c

Mr. Dean is merely doing what he must do. I considered at the time this came out that he might have been "complicit" in giving himself the opportunity to make these statements. Mr. Dean's agenda has to do with politics in the USA and he has taken measured steps to remove a number of "peripheral" issues from the table , e.g. abortion, as well as he could, and this seem part of that to me, and rightly so.

[Jim Sagle]

124. "this is not i/p"

So what is this thread, chopped liver? ;)

[drdon326]

162. Jinbo.....The thread is about american politics and....

anti-semitism.

And after seeing what was posted here , it really is about anti-semitism.

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

170. If dual-loyalty Neocons are really running the country, why is AIPAC

being prosecuted?

And, seriously, folks who talk about a "cabal" that seeks to advance Jewish/Zionist interests are really just rehashing the Protocols.

Does our policy favor Israel? Of course it does. Not surprising, because public opinion here favors Israel over Palestine. Politically, there's very little incentive to talk about the rights of Palestinians.

[Coastie for Truth]

172. Or Sir Phillip Wall, OBE

former CEO of Royal Dutch Shell. Sir Phillip was indicted in the Netherlands for payoffs to terrorists and for stock manipulation and for grossly overstating proven reserves to pump up the Shell stock price.

They Oil PNACS and Oil Neocons stick together.

If anybody is friggin dumb enough to really believe that the war in Iraq is not about oil and is not "American Blood for Arab Oil" -- they have been puffin too much medical cocaine and medical heroin laced medical marijuana.

The war is only about oil - C8H18 -- to fuel soccer moms' Hummers.

Israel is being used as a pawn in the war for oil for Hummers.

[Warren Stupidity]

173. AIPAC prosecution is about as serious

as the investigation of the outing of Valerie Plame. In fact the non-prosecution of AIPAC for espionage proves our point. Glad you brought it up.

The CABAL is the phrase I and others are currently using to describe the three major constituents of the ruling party: neocon conservative imperialists, fundamentalist rightwing lunatics, and corporate greedheads. There is nothing remotely anti-semitic regarding the word. There is nothing much semitic about the word other than the history of the word itself. It has long been used in anglo-saxon political history to describe a secretive coalition of political forces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabal

Once again you are inserting your own interpretation "folks who talk about a "cabal" that seeks to advance Jewish/Zionist interests are really just rehashing the Protocols" in order to paint us as jew haters. This is tiring. None of us have mentioned or insinuated or implied that there is a 'jewish conspiracy' here, instead you keep putting those words in our mouths and then screaming and pointing at us yelling 'jew hater'. Stop it. Argue the issues. Stop prattling on about the protocols of zion and deal with the real documents from key players in the administration that directly link our mideast policy with the policies of the likud government in Israel.

It isn't a question of 'does our policy favor Israel'. It is a question of 'are we acting to further our interests in the middle east or the interests of hardline rightwing 'Greater Israel' expansionists: the Likud Party? And once again try explaining to us how the destabilization of Lebanon and the current campaign to topple the Syrian regime are in the interests of US foreign policy.

How can we even start to talk about the rights of Palestinians when any criticism of Israel is labeled anti-semitic?

[Coastie for Truth]

176. Naive to to the fullest

You posted

It isn't a question of 'does our policy favor Israel'. It is a question of 'are we acting to further our interests in the middle east or the interests of hardline rightwing 'Greater Israel' expansionists: the Likud Party? And once again try explaining to us how the destabilization of Lebanon and the current campaign to topple the Syrian regime are in the interests of US foreign policy.

How can we even start to talk about the rights of Palestinians when any criticism of Israel is labeled anti-semitic?

I would argue that it is not the "either-or" ("It is a question of 'are we acting to further our interests in the middle east or the interests of hardline rightwing 'Greater Israel' expansionists: the Likud Party?"}, it is a question of why we have selected a policy that furthers the shortest range interests of the hypothetical (SUV driving and pick up driving) American motorist and the oil companies that feed their heroin like addiction to ever bigger cars that guzzle ever more gasoline.

One answer is that it may be coincident with the shortest range interests of Likud.

But, a more plausible answer is that it favors the oil industry and the House of Saud.

As to your query

How can we even start to talk about the rights of Palestinians when any criticism of Israel is labeled anti-semitic?

My response remains consistent

And as to anyone criticizing Zionists and Zionism, Israelis, American Jews (even Orthodox and Lubavitchers) - I WILL APPLY THE STANDARDS APPLIED TO WHITE PEOPLE WHO CRITICIZED RACIAL MINORITIES IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA... I am in my 60's - I was there.

[geek tragedy]

178. Criticizing the Israelis for their treatment of the Palestinians is

perfectly legitimate. Criticizing them for their own racist policies and theocratic tendencies is perfectly legitimate. It's even perfectly okay to question the wisdom of a faith-based state in the 21st Century.

However, trying to tie just the latest variety of US bully-boy aggression in foreign affairs (which the US has been doing since the Monroe Doctrine was announced) to some sort of Israeli agenda is dubious at the very best.

Was the First Gulf War launched on behalf of Israel too?

This notion that our foreign policy over there is designed to help Israel expand territorily is wholly without substance.

[Coastie for Truth]

179. I certainly question theocracies and faith based states

Criticizing them for their own racist policies and theocratic tendencies is perfectly legitimate. It's even perfectly okay to question the wisdom of a faith-based state in the 21st Century.

The great fault line within the ethnically Jewish portion of the body politic is between the "secular" and "religious" factions. Quick "man on the street" - you can probably put the "seculars" in an overwhelming majority. But the nature of proportional representation and "at large" voting in a parliamentary system gives the religious parties way way too much power.

Every secularist in Israel criticizes the theocratic tendencies of the Haredi vocal minority - and it is a constant uphill battle to keep the religious parties in their place (davening in their own neighborhoods - or to paraphrase the Prayer for the Czar in "Fiddler" - "God bless and keep the Orthodox - far away from me.")

I can intellectually distinguish between a "faith based state" and an "ethnic based state" -- "faith based states" are unappealing to most progressives. But in a world of "ethnic based states" - ethnicity is a reality. And, even in the US - when you get past the "bluer then blue" communities (I live in the SF Bay Area) - lot's of ethnic enclaves. Ethnicity is a reality - and the roles of the progressives is not to wipe out ethnicity - but to wipe out disparities based on ethnicity.

I am in agreement with the rest of your append. I just don't want people to get the impression that the Hassids and Haredis are anywhere near even a plurality - they do teach evolution in the schools :) and they do have a serious stem cell research program :) and they do permit therapeutic abortions - certainly not the markings of a de facto theocracy.

[Gyre]

185. Who benefits? Qui bono?

Israel was spoiling for the US to attack Iraq both times. The first was AFTER they bombed Iraq's only nascient nuclear plant and the second time after 10 years of sanctions. We fucked Iraq for our own reasons AND because Ariel Sharon was insisting it was arming itself with nukes that could threaten it's own nuclear hegemony in the ME, thus giving support to the myth that was the basis for a preemptive attack based on lies.

Israel is now spoiling for a US attack in Iran for exactly the same reasons. The US is preparing to respond the same way but knows Iran is a more dangerous opponent. AIPAC has been instrumental in taking out congressmen and senators and spying on the US with Feith, Wolfowitz and Pearle beating the drums of preemptive attack at the same time (all known to have heavy AIPAC connections).

Clearly, Israel likes to play the game "lets you and him fight" using the US, and this administration has been playing right along for whatever reasons. Certainly the potential of Iran arming itself with nukes is no threat to the US, but that's how it looks to Israel who likes being the only one with serious weapons in the region, and they've done nothing but violate the Geneva Convention in terms of how they treat the Palestinians thereby breeding the type of hatred that makes serious weaponry necessary. Not a good enough reason IMO to trigger a real war unless you place the desires of Israel above what is in the best interests of the US.

Seems like strong circumstantial evidence of collusion, if not deliberate American policy decisions based on what Israel believes to be it's best interests. That by implication puts Israel at the center of American decisions to wage preemptive war which has damaged us in countless ways.

Israel might be a friend of GWB, but they're no friend of the US and no friend of mine.

Gyre

[Behind the Aegis]

186. Always Israel, huh?

The first Iraq war seems we were invited at the behest of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Seems Israel was hit by several SCUD missiles, yet no reprisal. I guess they were "spoiling" to be bombed and "sit on their hands."

Israel's current government is not much better than ours. Yet, I still fail to see how that tiny country controls the policies and war decisions of this behemoth of a country. The only thing that controls this mis-Administration is OIL!

As for the only country in the region with serious weapons....has Pakistan and India moved? And, of course, it is Israel's fault that the Arab world hates her. The Palestinian issue is the only reason why the hate has been bred against Israel. :eyes:

The Israeli government is a friend to Shrub, but the population is not. Perhaps if the 1940 borders were re-established, peace would break out in the Middle East?

[Colorado Blue]

187. I think, it's more productive to look at the world's oil situation.

I've been reading about this. Back even in the '80's, during the Reagan/Bush Administration, US policy was directed to the idea of "divide and conquer" - an extension of the British Empire's "Great Game."

Even before that, the Carter Administration had helped stir up aggravation in Afghanistan - which eventually drew the Soviet Union into a dreadful war. This had many consequences: it drew fighters - mujeheddin - into the fight, whom we armed - with vast sums of Saudi money. It destabilized the Afghans, allowing eventually for the Taliban to come it. And, it was a huge factor in destroying the Soviet Union.

The Iran/Iraq war was another, massive assertion of this doctrine. The US armed BOTH sides, the war eventually cost 1,000,000 lives. Again, the motive was indirect control of the oil-rich Middle East and Central Asia.

The FIRST Bush Administration, with British support, apparently determined to take the direct approach to control of the oil fields - not only in the Middle East, but to enable the building of pipelines that would exploit Caspian Sea and Turkmen oil.

Rather than acting through puppet governments, the assault on Saddam - provoked by the attack on Kuwait - was step #1 in breaking Iraq's back militarily. The fall of the Soviets left the field clear for further military action, as we now see. Meanwhile, the great pipeline projects, contracted in part to Halliburton long ago, are underway. With Taliban in control of Afghanistan, that wouldn't have been possible. As it is, the pipeline south from Turkmenistan will involve cooperation between several nations, including Iran, Pakistan and India. Another is moving west, through Turkey.

This has been driven by the fact that oil production is seen by industry experts to be peaking soon, perhaps by the end of the decade. Meanwhile, global demand is growing sharply.

Should production taper off as demand soars, the global economy would be in dire straits. Direct control or at least assurance of military intervention in the region of this vital resource is the driving factor behind this scenario.

Israel is a side-issue, a red herring. Israel's problems are local, a matter of survival, that do not involve US/British geopolitical or economic interests, except insofar as the Israelis have been useful militarily and provide intelligence that the US has relied upon. As such they're invaluable to the US.

Of far greater importance to our economy, is the relative fragility of the Sauds, upon whose oil the US has become highly dependent - and whose wells may be reaching peak capacity. And, should instability threaten the Arabian peninsula, we'd indeed be in deep shit.

[geek tragedy]

188. The first Gulf War had NOTHING to do with Israel, whose behavior

during that war was extraordinarily rational and restrained despite the criminal Iraqi missile strikes against it.

Cui bono is a very poor way to attribute responsibility. More than one person or group benefits or suffers from any decision on this scale, and more importantly it completely ignores the Law of Unintended Consequences.

[Coastie for Truth]

189. More evidence of collusion between US, Saudis, and ExxonMobil

mediated by the common links - Prince Bandar, Jim Baker.

Who were the big winners - House of Saud, ExxonMobil.