I am an anti-zionist

[sui generis]

that doesn't mean I'm anti-jewish, which would really be funny considering my heritage.

Anyone who can't tell the difference between a political philosophy/public policy and a religion really shouldn't be posting on DU, and that goes for both sides: the almost-bigots who think this is an open call for a hate-fest, and the self-serving disruptors who love to pretend to be outraged here on behalf of everyone they don't know for attention.

If we can't talk about political topics civilly, and without worrying about hysteria shutting us down via a necessary administrator intervention, I guess the admins will keep enforcing our little free speech zones by eliminating some topics from discussion altogether.

The chicken recipe thing was funny, but it is not at all funny that we can no longer talk about chicken.

Who is being manipulated by whom?

The bad seed seems to be calling the shots on what the rest of us adults are allowed to talk about on DU of all places.

[bryant69]

1. This seems like an interesting debate

I'm generally Pro-Isreal (not everything they do of course, but in general). I will say that it seems to me that both sides in this particular debate have their bomb throwers. Even among people who might agree on a lot of other things.

Bryant
check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Behind the Aegis]

2. you are against a safe and secure Israel?

BTW, just because someone is gay, doesn't preclude them from being a homophobe...the same applies to any group.

[Taverner]

7. Zionism does not mean safe and secure Israel

It means pro-israeli apartheid against the arabs.

[geek tragedy]

19. Says who? Ariel Sharon? Meir Kahane? Osama bin Laden?

Where do you get that definition of Zionism?

[madeline_con]

22. Some info about Herzl

To get you started learning what Zionism's really all about.



"Herzl had kept a diary as a young lawyer in the 1880s, but in May 1895, he started keeping a diary devoted entirely to the Jewish cause.

On 12 June 1895, Herzl confided to his diary his programme for the removal of the indigenous non-Jewish population from the Jewish State and the expropriation of private property by the Jewish State."

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7854/transfer03.html




With some googling, you can find oodles more about this racist, genocidal group. :)

[Behind the Aegis]

23. And with more googling you can find this...

...Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

[geek tragedy]

26. Never mind. The poster in question won't be happy until

Israel is destroyed.

Because Israel itself is an evil, in their view.

And of course, since the vast majority of Jews support Israel's right to exist . . .

[madeline_con]

44. "The poster in question won't be happy until"

Well, aren't we presumptuous?

While I definitely advocate an overhaul of the Israeli govt., and less heavy-handed tactics by the IDF, I don't feel the state of Israel should be completely destroyed.

But, thanks for trying to help with that. ;)

[geek tragedy]

48. Then you think the Zionist creation should be allowed to remain.

How is that anti-Zionist?

[madeline_con]

55. What's the alternative?

Do we go in and run the Israelis out by force? Not all Israelis support their gov.'s tactics.

At this point, too much water's flowed under the bridge to go back to the day WWII ended.

[geek tragedy]

58. Then what's the point of anti-Zionism?

If it is merely reforming the Israeli government, then anti-Zionists have the same agenda as many, if not most, self-described Zionists.

[madeline_con]

45. "...support and development of the state of Israel..."

Wow. That clarifies everything. Aren't we 'supporting and developing' Iraq? :nuke:

[Behind the Aegis]

46. Yeah, they are one in the same.

:eyes:

[madeline_con]

47. All I'm saying is...

The statement posted, 'support and development' can be interpreted a lot of ways.

Where Ariel Sharon and his cronies are concerned it seems to lean toward the old school idea of 'spiriting' the Arabs out, whatever the new language used to justify their actions may be.

(edited for clarity)

[geek tragedy]

49. But, anti-Zionism therefore means "opposing the support and development

of Israel."

In other words, opposition to Israel as a matter of principle instead of a desire to reform it.

[madeline_con]

50. You see it your way...

and I don't. I guess it's just one more thing in life we'll both have to deal with and get over.

[Behind the Aegis]

62. And it can be as easily misinterpreted, as it is here by many posters!

I find it interesting that it is OK to not to come to an agreement on this. I wonder if African-Americans would feel the same about Affirmative Action? What I mean is what if Affirmative Action started to become synonymous with "welfare" or "handouts." Do you think that AA's would say..."hey, it's OK, we know what it means, and it doesn't matter that is a code-word for you." Somehow, I doubt they would settle for that, and I don't think it would be AA's who would be outraged. So why is it so difficult to understand that using the wrong definition is offensive and does nothing but to further denigrate?

[Behind the Aegis]

40. Which dictionary are YOU using?! n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

52. Do you know what "apartheid" juridicially means?

None of this "I think, I feel, I know it when I see it on the Web, my progressive heart tells me."

Read the juridicial definitions.

International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid
Adopted and opened for signature, ratification by
General Assembly resolution 3068 (XXVIII)
of 30 November 1973
entry into force 18 July 1976, in accordance with article XV
status of ratifications, reservations and declarations


The States Parties to the present Convention,


Recalling the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, in which all Members pledged themselves to take joint and separate action in co-operation with the Organization for the achievement of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion,

Considering the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states that all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights and that everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in the Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour or national origin,
Considering the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples, in which the General Assembly stated that the process of liberation is irresistible and irreversible and that, in the interests of human dignity, progress and justice, an end must be put to colonialism and all practices of segregation and discrimination associated therewith,

Observing that, in accordance with the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, States particularly condemn racial segregation and apartheid and undertake to prevent, prohibit and eradicate all practices of this nature in territories under their jurisdiction,

Observing that, in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, certain acts which may also be qualified as acts of apartheid constitute a crime under international law,

Observing that, in the Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity, "inhuman acts resulting from the policy of apartheid" are qualified as crimes against humanity, Observing that the General Assembly of the United Nations has adopted a number of resolutions in which the policies and practices of apartheid are condemned as a crime against humanity,

Observing that the Security Council has emphasized that apartheid and its continued intensification and expansion seriously disturb and threaten international peace and security, Convinced that an International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid would make it possible to take more effective measures at the international and national levels with a view to the suppression and punishment of the crime of apartheid, Have agreed as follows:

Article I

1. The States Parties to the present Convention declare that apartheid is a crime against humanity and that inhuman acts resulting from the policies and practices of apartheid and similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination, as defined in article II of the Convention, are crimes violating the principles of international law, in particular the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, and constituting a serious threat to international peace and security.

2. The States Parties to the present Convention declare criminal those organizations, institutions and individuals committing the crime of apartheid.

Article II

For the purpose of the present Convention, the term "the crime of apartheid", which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practised in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:

(a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person:

(i) By murder of members of a racial group or groups;

(ii) By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment;

(iii) By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups;

(b) Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part;

(c) Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;

d) Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;



(e) Exploitation of the labour of the members of a racial group or groups, in particular by submitting them to forced labour;

(f) Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.

Article III

International criminal responsibility shall apply, irrespective of the motive involved, to individuals, members of organizations and institutions and representatives of the State, whether residing in the territory of the State in which the acts are perpetrated or in some other State, whenever they:

(a) Commit, participate in, directly incite or conspire in the commission of the acts mentioned in article II of the present Convention;

(b) Directly abet, encourage or co-operate in the commission of the crime of apartheid.

Article IV

The States Parties to the present Convention undertake:

(a) To adopt any legislative or other measures necessary to suppress as well as to prevent any encouragement of the crime of apartheid and similar segregationist policies or their manifestations and to punish persons guilty of that crime;

(b) To adopt legislative, judicial and administrative measures to prosecute, bring to trial and punish in accordance with their jurisdiction persons responsible for, or accused of, the acts defined in article II of the present Convention, whether or not such persons reside in the territory of the State in which the acts are committed or are nationals of that State or of some other State or are stateless persons.

Article V

Persons charged with the acts enumerated in article II of the present Convention may be tried by a competent tribunal of any State Party to the Convention which may acquire jurisdiction over the person of the accused or by an international penal tribunal having jurisdiction with respect to those States Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article VI

The States Parties to the present Convention undertake to accept and carry out in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations the decisions taken by the Security Council aimed at the prevention, suppression and punishment of the crime of apartheid, and to co-operate in the implementation of decisions adopted by other competent organs of the United Nations with a view to achieving the purposes of the Convention.

Article VII

1. The States Parties to the present Convention undertake to submit periodic reports to the group established under article IX on the legislative, judicial, administrative or other measures that they have adopted and that give effect to the provisions of the Convention.

2. Copies of the reports shall be transmitted through the Secretary-General of the United Nations to the Special Committee on Apartheid.

Article VIII

Any State Party to the present Convention may call upon any competent organ of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as it considers appropriate for the prevention and suppression of the crime of apartheid.


Article IX

1. The Chairman of the Commission on Human Rights shall appoint a group consisting of three members of the Commission on Human Rights, who are also representatives of States Parties to the present Convention, to consider reports submitted by States Parties in accordance with article VII.

2. If, among the members of the Commission on Human Rights, there are no representatives of States Parties to the present Convention or if there are fewer than three such representatives, the Secretary-General of the United Nations shall, after consulting all States Parties to the Convention, designate a representative of the State Party or representatives of the States Parties which are not members of the Commission on Human Rights to take part in the work of the group established in accordance with paragraph 1 of this article, until such time as representatives of the States Parties to the Convention are elected to the Commission on Human Rights.

3. The group may meet for a period of not more than five days, either before the opening or after the closing of the session of the Commission on Human Rights, to consider the reports submitted in accordance with article VII.

Article X

1 . The States Parties to the present Convention empower the Commission on Human Rights:

(a) To request United Nations organs, when transmitting copies of petitions under article 15 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, to draw its attention to complaints concerning acts which are enumerated in article II of the present Convention;

(b) To prepare, on the basis of reports from competent organs of the United Nations and periodic reports from States Parties to the present Convention, a list of individuals, organizations, institutions and representatives of States which are alleged to be responsible for the crimes enumerated in article II of the Convention, as well as those against whom legal proceedings have been undertaken by States Parties to the Convention;

(c) To request information from the competent United Nations organs concerning measures taken by the authorities responsible for the administration of Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories, and all other Territories to which General Assembly resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960 applies, with regard to such individuals alleged to be responsible for crimes under article II of the Convention who are believed to be under their territorial and administrative jurisdiction.

2. Pending the achievement of the objectives of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples, contained in General Assembly resolution 1514 (XV), the provisions of the present Convention shall in no way limit the right of petition granted to those peoples by other international instruments or by the United Nations and its specialized agencies.


Article XI

1. Acts enumerated in article II of the present Convention shall not be considered political crimes for the purpose of extradition.

2. The States Parties to the present Convention undertake in such cases to grant extradition in accordance with their legislation and with the treaties in force.

Article XII

Disputes between States Parties arising out of the interpretation, application or implementation of the present Convention which have not been settled by negotiation shall, at the request of the States parties to the dispute, be brought before the International Court of Justice, save where the parties to the dispute have agreed on some other form of settlement.

Article XIII

The present Convention is open for signature by all States. Any State which does not sign the Convention before its entry into force may accede to it.

Article XIV

1. The present Convention is subject to ratification. Instruments of ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

2. Accession shall be effected by the deposit of an instrument of accession with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article XV

1. The present Convention shall enter into force on the thirtieth day after the date of the deposit with the Secretary-General of the United Nations of the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession.

2. For each State ratifying the present Convention or acceding to it after the deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or instrument of accession, the Convention shall enter into force on the thirtieth day after the date of the deposit of its own instrument of ratification or instrument of accession.

Article XVI

A State Party may denounce the present Convention by written notification to the Secretary-General of the United Nations. Denunciation shall take effect one year after the date of receipt of the notification by the Secretary-General.


Article XVII

1. A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at any time by any State Party by means of a notification in writing addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

2. The General Assembly of the United Nations shall decide upon the steps, if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article XVIII

The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall inform all States of the following particulars:

(a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions under articles XIII and XIV;

(b) The date of entry into force of the present Convention under article XV;

(c) Denunciations under article XVI;

(d) Notifications under article XVII.

Article XIX

1. The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall be deposited in the archives of the United Nations.

2. The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall transmit certified copies of the present Convention to all States.

International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid of November 30, 1973

Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, 17 July 1998

Part 2. Jurisdiction, Admissibility and Applicable Law
Article 7

Crimes against humanity

1. For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:


(a) Murder;

(b) Extermination;

(c) Enslavement;

(d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;

(e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;

(f) Torture;

(g) Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;

(h) Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;

(i) Enforced disappearance of persons;

(j) The crime of apartheid;

(k) Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.


2. For the purpose of paragraph 1:


(a) "Attack directed against any civilian population" means a course of conduct involving the multiple commission of acts referred to in paragraph 1 against any civilian population, pursuant to or in furtherance of a State or organizational policy to commit such attack;

(b) "Extermination" includes the intentional infliction of conditions of life, inter alia the deprivation of access to food and medicine, calculated to bring about the destruction of part of a population;

(c) "Enslavement" means the exercise of any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership over a person and includes the exercise of such power in the course of trafficking in persons, in particular women and children;

(d) "Deportation or forcible transfer of population" means forced displacement of the persons concerned by expulsion or other coercive acts from the area in which they are lawfully present, without grounds permitted under international law;

(e) "Torture" means the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, upon a person in the custody or under the control of the accused; except that torture shall not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions;

(f) "Forced pregnancy" means the unlawful confinement of a woman forcibly made pregnant, with the intent of affecting the ethnic composition of any population or carrying out other grave violations of international law. This definition shall not in any way be interpreted as affecting national laws relating to pregnancy;

(g) "Persecution" means the intentional and severe deprivation of fundamental rights contrary to international law by reason of the identity of the group or collectivity;

(h) "The crime of apartheid" means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime;

(i) "Enforced disappearance of persons" means the arrest, detention or abduction of persons by, or with the authorization, support or acquiescence of, a State or a political organization, followed by a refusal to acknowledge that deprivation of freedom or to give information on the fate or whereabouts of those persons, with the intention of removing them from the protection of the law for a prolonged period of time.


3. For the purpose of this Statute, it is understood that the term "gender" refers to the two sexes, male and female, within the context of society. The term "gender" does not indicate any meaning different from the above.

Apartheid (ap-ar-taed) is an Afrikaans word meaning "separation" or literally "aparthood" (or "apartness"). It was the name of the policy and the system of laws implemented and enforced by "White" minority governments in South Africa from 1948 till 1990. To some the term has come to be used to refer to any legally sanctioned system of racial segregation. The first recorded use of the word is in 1917, during a speech by Jan Smuts, who became Prime Minister of South Africa in 1919.

In some ways Apartheid was an extension of the segregationist laws implemented by previous white minority governments. Examples include the 1913 Land Act and the various workplace "colour bars". However, by the end of the Second World War, the enforcement of these laws had been lessened by the United Party government of Jan Smuts. This culminated in the 1948 report of the Fagan Commission, which was set up by the government to investigate changes to the system. The report recommended that segregation in the cities be ended, thus also ending the migrant labour system whereby the permanent home of Black South Africans was in distant rural "reserves". Prime Minister Smuts was in favour of the findings of the Commission, stating that: "The idea that natives must all be removed and confined in their kraals is in my opinion, the greatest nonsense I have ever heard."

In response to the Fagan Commission, the National Party convened its own commission known as the Sauer Commission. The findings of this commission were almost the exact opposite of those of the Fagan Commission, as it recommended that not only should segregation continue, but it should be made even stricter, and implemented in all spheres of social and economic life. It recommended the concept of "Apartheid", in which the races were to be completely separated as much as possible.

The National Party won the national election of 1948, narrowly defeating Smuts' United Party (though losing the popular vote). It immediately began implementing stricter racial segregation policies, creating the system of "Apartheid" which was to last for 42 years until it was dismantled in 1990 by F.W. de Klerk.

[Violet_Crumble]

56. Yes, and it describes Israel's actions in the Occupied Territories..

But thanks for posting it for those who hadn't seen it, I guess...

Violet...

[sui generis]

8. I didn't say that. You did.

I am against the POLICIES of zionism. Your subtle warning was not lost but is entirely inappropriate.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. Modern Zionism

"Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel." You said you are anti-Zionist. How do you define it?

[justinsb]

3. That's part of the problem with mixing religion and politics

Many people, including many Jews, seem to have a hard time finding the dividing line between the Jewish religion and the policies of the Israeli government.

[geek tragedy]

4. How do you define anti-Zionist? Do you think the state of Israel

should be destroyed?

[sui generis]

I'm not talking about zionism

please re-read my post.

[geek tragedy]

13. What do you mean by anti-Zionism? It's not at all clear. eom

[devilgrrl]

9. "Do you think the state of Israel should be destroyed?"

Oh yeah. That's exactly what he means. :sarcasm:

[geek tragedy]

16. Zionism is the support of the existence of Israel. Anti-Zionism

would therefore be the opposite.

[Karenina]

36. That assertion is jingoism.

there are "anti-Zionists in the black hat community. Their reasons for being so reveal the TRUE ETHICS of Judaism. Unfortunately, few hear and even fewer UNDERSTAND.

[Behind the Aegis]

37. The real problem

People do not or will not understand the meaning of modern Zionism. They repeat stupid and inaccurate talking points.

[geek tragedy]

39. So only anti-Zionists are real Jews? eom

[Karenina]

51. WHO is a "real" Jew?

You tell me. Shabbat Shalom.

[geek tragedy]

59. I don't believe in such a concept. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

60. The real question is not who is the "real" Jew.

No. The real question is who is the real bigot. The Zionist, as defined by anti-Semites, or the anti-Semites? My money is on the anti-Semites. Because a few uneducated and ignorant (and a few are just plain run-of-the-mill bigots) have created a negative connotation around the word, doesn't mean Zionists have to accept it.

[Coastie for Truth]

53. They are like the Rapturists

They are awaiting the physical coming of a flesh and blood Messiah.

[SteppingRazor]

5. I don't think there's any winners in the Israel/Palestine debate

Both sides gave up the moral high ground a very long time ago.

[madeline_con]

24. I think the IDF...

has a distinct advantage. They have military equipment and some Biblical prophecy behind them, and a racist government backing them up, IMO.

[Fridays Child]

6. I married a Jew. My kid is half-Jewish. I like Jews.

I, too, am an anti-Zionist. I don't feel one iota conflicted in my views.

[sui generis]

10. see - that's a rational statement

whether or not you support zionism.

There are already some posts here that are edging into hysteria - which was my real point.

[Clark2008]

14. My ex-husband is Palestinian, my son is half Arabic

and my current boyfriend is half Jewish.

And I'm anti-Zionist. Oh - and so is the current boyfriend.

[UdoKier]

17. So you disagree with the establishment of the state of Israel?

That's what you're saying, you know.

[MuseRider]

18. My exact situation.

It was touchy but if we could open up the dialog then there is still hope.

[madeline_con]

27. Thank you...

I have a Jewish son, and one who's Muslim.

I too, am staunchly anti-Zionist. :)

[UdoKier]

You're confusing Zionists with Likudniks.

If you believe Israel has the right to exist, you're a Zionist. Sharon and his Likud brethren are militant Zionists.

This thread is not necessarily anti-Semitic, but it's incorrect and an unfair attack on a lot of perfectly nice liberal Zionists who disagree with Sharon's policies.

[DixieDem]

33. Bingo! Well said. n/m

[Violet_Crumble]

43. Cool! I'm a Zionist!

I support the right of Israel to exist, but I oppose the occupation. Strangely enough I've been accused in the past of being anti-Semitic by those who clearly think that being a Zionist must involve support for the occupation by defending every damn thing that the current Israeli govt does in relation to the conflict...

Violet...

[Frederik]

11. But how do you define Zionist?

Does being a Zionist today simply mean being in favor of the continued existance of the state of Israel as a Jewish state? Or something more?

[madeline_con]

15. Thank you for a sane approach...

As many Jews are also anti-Zionist, it would logically follow that being so is not anti-Semitic.

Since Semitic people are of different faiths, anti-Semitic doesn't mean anti-Jewish.

[geek tragedy]

20. Look in the dictionary. "Anti-semitic" has always meant anti-Jewish.

The term was invented to describe anti-Jewish bias.

[Behind the Aegis]

61. Jewish anti-Zionists

Generally, Jewish anti-Zionists are against Israel because they believe G-d, Himself, will and should be, the only one to create Israel. Although, Jews can be anti-Semitic. The non-Jewish anti-Zionists are usually anti-Semitic bigots. Their not wanting Israel to exist has NOTHING to do with G-d and EVERYTHING to do with hatred of Jews!

BTW...anti-Semitic ONLY means anti-Jewish!

[geek tragedy]

21. "Zionism" is defined as follows:

<snip>
Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.
<snip>

So, what does anti-Zionist mean?

[dutchdemocrat]

28. Anti-Zionist

Anti-Zionist means... well for me as an Athiest - someone who is against the Jewish Diaspora. I don't think they have any more right to the region than their cousins, the Palestinians. In fact, the policies of the Israeli government are generally dispicable at this point.

[geek tragedy]

29. "Against the Jewish Diaspora?" What does that mean? nt

[dutchdemocrat]

31. Jewish diaspora

Jewish diaspora (Hebrew: Tefutzah, or Galut, "exile") refers to the dispersion of the Jewish people throughout the world.

I am referring to the magnet that brings them to some dirt in the middle east after a couple of thousand years.

[geek tragedy]

32. What does it mean to be against the Jewish Diaspora? nt

[madeline_con]

30. "In fact, the policies of the Israeli government are ...

... generally dispicable at this point."

Hear Hear!

[immoderate]

25. Let me add to the confusion.

I'm Jewish, though religiously atheist. I am against state sanctioned religions and theocracies. I lived in Arizona and have had my fill of the desert. I also find the people of the Middle East a little too "caffeinated" for my taste, but let them live and be well.

I am not for or against the state of Israel, though I sometimes disapprove of their actions. I don't call myself a Zionist, or an anti-Zionist.:shrug:

--IMM

[stinkeefresh]

34. well

I'm Jewish and so's my whole family and none of us think that the modern formation of Israel was such a hot idea. My personal view is that no one should have a "homeland"- a place where a specific type of person has more rights or power than minorities in the region.

I thought one of the best things about being Jewish was how marvelously Jews maintained thier heritage and culture without a homeland. I always saw that as a model of what all cultures could one day attain, once we begin to gel as a whole, undivided planet.

Sharon I loath. Rabin I liked. But on the subject of shoudl there be a Jewish state- hell, I don't think there should be Jewish states, Arab states, Christian states or any state that defines it's population as anything other than "whoever wants to pitch in".

[Behind the Aegis]

35. But now it is here.

And Israel, whether Jewish or secular, deserves to exist and have safe and secure borders without fear of destruction!

[stinkeefresh]

38. Well, yes-

as much as any other country. But I'm one of those "imagine no countries" dreamers, so I'm not a big fan of anyone defending or attacking anything.

[pelsar]

41. pretty weird debate here....

since the defintion of zionism and anti zionism appears to have several shades, i would suggest that those who have expressed their views eithe anti or pro perhaps explain in detail what they mean?

[Behind the Aegis]

42. Quite simply

I follow the modern definition that means I support a safe and secure Israel. It does not mean I agree with all her actions or policies, but it does mean, unlike several of her neighbors, I recognize her right to exist!

[Coastie for Truth]

54. Stupid Question

Can one be "Anti-Bush/Cheney" and still "Pro-USA"?

Can one be "Anti-PNAC" and still "Pro-USA"

Can be "Anti-Iraqi War" and still "Pro-USA"

Can one be Anti-Trinitarian, Anti-Annunciation, Anti-Divine Conception, Anti-Virgin Birth, Anti-Physical Ressurection, Anti-Transubstantiation", anti-Creationism, Pro-"Jefferson's Bible", Pro-Gay Rights, Pro-Choice, Pro-Stem Cell Research, Pro-First Amendment, and still be "Pro-USA" or does that malke one "Anti-USA"?

If one is "Pro-Benjamin Franklin" and "Pro-Thomas Jefferson" and Pro-FDR" but anti-Bush/Cheney, Anti-NeoCon, and Anti-War is one "Pro-USA" or "Anti-USA."

I just want to see how consistent my fellow DUers are?

[Violet_Crumble]

57. Yeah, it is...

What exactly are you asking, and what point are you trying to make? Be concise, please. Are you asking if someone can be anti-Zionist and pro-Israel?


Violet...

[Lithos]

63. Locking

Per I/P guidelines - Not based on a recent news or op-ed story.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator
Democratic Underground