Anti-Zionist = Anti-Semitic

[devilgrrl]

Oh, I keep forgetting. :sarcasm:

[Behind the Aegis]

1. Apparently not.

BTW, it doesn't always.

[pie]

2. anti-zionist means... thinking clearly

anti-Semitic is hateful

[Behind the Aegis]

5. Re-defined

Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

[Moochy]

3. Make a Venn Diagram

There has to be a venn diagram to show the intersection of zionists anti-zionists, racists, and anti-semites.

Equivalence is so passe.

[not systems]

46. Venn diagram

All anti-semites are racists.

Not all racists are anti-semites.

Some but not all zionists are racist.
Some but not all zionists are anti-semites.
Some zionists are racist anti-semites.

Some but not all anti-zionists are racist.
Some but not all anti-zionists are anti-semites.
Some anti-zionists are racist anti-semites.

All zionists anti-zionists are confused but some probably exist.

[Moochy]

64. Text based Venn :)

Thanks for that, its exactly what I was trying to get across :)

anti-zionist zionist : those neo-nazi israeli skinheads that were in the news in the last month.

[bluestateguy]

4. As I understand it...

being a Zionust means supporting the existence of the state of Israel as a Jewish nation. If that's the case then most Americans are Zionists, including me.

Some people use that word to label one as a supporter of Ariel Sharon and the Likud Party. I am not, and I support a Palestinan state.

[understandinglife]

8. My understanding and sentiments, as well.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4173.htm


WE THE PEOPLE .... WILL NEVER FORGET

"... we sent our young people into harm's way without leveling with the American people." - Congresswoman Pelosi before Congress, 16 June 2005

Peace.


www.missionnotaccomplished.us - Why isn't Bush already in jail?

[Clark2008]

24. So should we term it being against Extreme Zionism?

I'm against Likud Party's continued killing and uprooting of Palestinians and for a Palestinian State; however, I don't want to see Israeli no longer exist as a nation, either.

[Al-CIAda]

6. AIPAC spies and PNAC associates are our friends.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Behind the Aegis]

7. and Israel runs US policy, right?

:eyes:

[bluestateguy]

9. I think Saudi Arabia has more clout than Israel does

or even Communist China--a lot of business folks here in the US are salivating at that 1.2 billion person market, and the opportunities for cheap labor. These are people who have the ear of the White House.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Oh I agree!

I was making a sarcastic remark. I certainly don't Israel has a monolith of power over Washington, although, there are quite a few here that do!

[Frederik]

12. The Saudis

probably have more influence than any other foreign nation in America's foreign policy. Israel is probably number two though.

[Coastie for Truth]

68. Try the PRC

I would put the order as:
1. Saudi Arabia (bought gas lately?)
2. People's Republic of China (been to Wal-Mart, then there's Unocal)
3. Israel (no higher the 3rd; definitely behind Saudi Arabia, PRC)

[Zynx]

13. No, but there are plenty of PNAC scum who do, and they have Israeli ties

The neocons like to scream JEW HATER!! to force critics to back off.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Sometimes...

...they are "Jew haters."

[geek tragedy]

34. Indeed. Not all opponents of Israel hate Jews, but some do. nt

[AntiCoup2K4]

63. Not neccesarily.

I hate Ariel Sharon and the Likud Party. I hate Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, The Kagans, the Kristols, and the rest of those treasonous enemies of Democracy. I hate them, and I despise them. Not because they're Jews, but because they are fascists.

I also despise Will Marshall, Joe Biden, Jeb Bush (and his simian brother) and every other Gentile who signed those sickening PNAC documents of treason. Their religions are also irrelvant to me.

I can't stand Condi Rice, or Gonzales either. And I've lost whatever respect I had for Colin Powell. Does that make me a "racist"?

Nobody would call me an "anti-Semite" for disliking Barbara Streisand's music. So why is it suddenly acceptable to throw that name around for those who cannot accept fascist policies?

And yes it DOES happen at DU. The fact that this basement forum exists is evidence enough of that.

If there are any "Jew Haters" around here, they're probably trolls from Rim Job's Magical Kingdom of Eternal Stupidity.

[bpilgrim]

22. no one said that, but it is a popular straw-man

:eyes:

peace

[Behind the Aegis]

23. Didn't say it...implied it.

But to deny it is an even better strawman and gets more play!

[Kraklen]

10. I think saying "zionist" is just asking for trouble.

Wouldn't it be more effective to say "rightwing fundamentalist nut" for any given religion?

[Frederik]

17. Yes

The word Zionist means being of favor of Israel as a Jewish state, so it covers a lot more than just right-wing fundamentalists. There are left-wing socialist Zionists too, for instance. Socialist Zionists are hardly on the same team as BushCo and the Christocrats.

[geek tragedy]

19. Exactly. There's a big difference between opposing the unjust occupation

of the West Bank and Gaza on one hand and wanting Israel wiped off the map on the other.

[whalerider55]

20. but

... don't the american taliban believe in the establishment of the state of israel as part of the "to-do" list for the apocalypse?

so wouldn't they be considered zionists, too?

whalerider

[Frederik]

25. They call themselves "Christian Zionists"

They believe that the Israeli state must be in place before the rapture can begin.

[Coastie for Truth]

70. But hen they want to forcibly convert the Jews

a la Tomas Torquemada and Pius IX.

[Coastie for Truth]

69. The left wing socialist Zionists

are probably better frfiends of the Palestinians then the Palestinian's Arab Brother or the "anti-Zionists." The left wing socialist Zionist are the same kind of people who died in Neshoba County Mississippi.

[geek tragedy]

15. Depends how you define 'anti-zionist'. nt

[Walt Starr]

16. Well, that equation is no more correct than the following

Anti-Taliban = Anti-Islam.

[Idioteque]

18. A lot of people don't really understand the word Zionism

"Zionism is a political movement among Jews, although supported by some non-Jews and not supported by some Jews, which maintains that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland."

Essentially, it's the idea that Israel should be allowed to exist and be Jewish HQ. It doesn't mean you can't oppose the right-wing Sharon government and it doesn't mean you can't show support for a Palestinian state.

Most people that consider themselves "anti-zionist" aren't really opposed to Israel, just it's current actions.

As I'm not Jewish, I could be wrong. I hope somebody will correct me if I've got it wrong.

[Colorado Blue]

29. That's essentially correct! Except, for this:

ANTI-Zionism doesn't really mean, being against current policies or actions of the Israeli government - it actually has a darker meaning.

Being against the government or its policies would just take the form of saying, as we do here, "Those blankety-blank rightwingers!" That's not the same as saying, for example, "Anti-American" or "Anti-French."

One interpretation of anti-Zionism actually equals, being against the entire concept of Israel, of the Jewish state. In extreme forms, this takes the shape of actually advocating its destruction.

Another interpretation, that held by Martin Luther King, Jr., considers that anti-Zionism actually IS antisemitic, ie, being against Jewish people. Here's his interpretation:

"Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism"
- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.


". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.

"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.

This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.

Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."

From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."

http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/ml_king.html

[Violet_Crumble]

38. The MLK letter is a fraud

In the item, entitled “Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend,” King proclaims that criticism of Zionism is tantamount to anti-Semitism, and likens those who criticize Jewish nationalism as manifested in Israel, to those who would seek to trample the rights of blacks. Heady stuff indeed, and 100% bullshit, as any amateur fact checker could ascertain were they so inclined. But of course, the kinds of folks who push an ideology that required the expulsion of three-quarters-of-a-million Palestinians from their lands, and then lied about it, claiming there had been no such persons to begin with (as with Golda Meir’s infamous quip), can’t be expected to place a very high premium on truth. I learned this the hard way recently, when the Des Moines Jewish Federation succeeded in getting me yanked from the city’s MLK day events: two speeches I had been scheduled to give on behalf of the National Conference of Community and Justice (NCCJ).

<snip>

The treatise, it is claimed, was published on page 76 of the August, 1967 edition of Saturday Review, and supposedly can also be read in the collection of King’s work entitled, This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. That the claimants never mention the publisher of this collection should have been a clear tip-off that it might not be genuine, and indeed it isn’t. The book doesn’t exist. As for Saturday Review, there were four issues in August of 1967. Two of the four editions contained a page 76. One of the pages 76 contains classified ads and the other contained a review of the Beatles’ Sgt. Pepper’s album. No King letter anywhere.

Yet its lack of authenticity hasn’t prevented it from having a long shelf-life. Not only does it pop up in the Schneier book, but sections of it were read by the Anti-Defamation League’s Michael Salberg in testimony before a House Subcommittee in July of 2001, and all manner of pro-Israel groups (from traditional Zionists to right-wing Likudites, to Christians who support ingathering Jews to Israel so as to prompt Jesus’ return), have used the piece on their websites.

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-01/20wise.cfm

[Colorado Blue]

65. Oh, come ON. Let's take a moment for a lesson in

AMERICAN history.

Jewish people have stood shoulder to shoulder with African-Americans, many risked their lives in the Civil Rights movements. Some died. Dr. King was aware of this and aware of the struggle of the Jewish people to try and rebuild, after the Holocaust, and of the essential justice of our cause.

These retroactive attempts to change the meaning of history are so tiresome.

It is tragic that the differences between people are being exploited by those with political agendas. And it is tragic that people are trying to retroactively delegitimize Israel, and actually try to change history itself. Corrective revisionism is one thing but some of this stuff REALLY goes too far.

Declaring this statement a "fraud" is to completely misunderstand Dr. King, the civil rights struggles in the US, and the fact that Eretz Israel is NOT regarded by EVERYBODY as a dark and terrible demon, and that not EVERYBODY has a one-sided view of the warfare in the Middle East.

The quotation has been confirmed, although it was in fact made at a speech at Harvard.

http://www.jewish-history.com/mlk_zionism.html

snip

Since the message of the letter (Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism) was one Martin Luther King, Jr. had indeed articulated, we can understand why the King family and the ADL did not feel the need to verify the “Letter to an anti-Zionist friend.” We at CAMERA apologize, though, for not looking past their endorsement when we had initial doubts about it. This episode is a reminder of the importance of verifying the authenticity and accuracy of sources, even when they appear to be solid.

Below is a January 21, 2002 op-ed by U.S. Rep. John Lewis, who worked closely with Dr. King. In the op-ed, he shares Dr. King’s views on Israel, views which stressed Israel’s democratic nature and Israel’s need for security. And he also relates that Dr. King said, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”

This quotation has been confirmed, so you should feel assured that you can use the quotation in letters. Just be sure to mention that it came from Dr. King’s 1968 Harvard University appearance, so that no one will think it is from the debunked “letter.”

The op-ed by Congressman Lewis appears below.

With our sincerest apologies,

Lee Green
Director, National Letter-Writing Group
CAMERA

Monday, January 21, 2002
(San Francisco Chronicle)

“I have a dream” for peace in the Middle East
Martin Luther King Jr.’s special bond with Israel
by John Lewis

THE REV. MARTIN Luther King Jr. understood the meaning of discrimination and oppression. He sought ways to achieve liberation and peace, and he thus understood that a special relationship exists between African Americans and American Jews.

This message was true in his time and is true today.

He knew that both peoples were uprooted involuntarily from their homelands. He knew that both peoples were shaped by the tragic experience of slavery. He knew that both peoples were forced to live in ghettoes, victims of segregation.

He knew that both peoples were subject to laws passed with the particular intent of oppressing them simply because they were Jewish or black. He knew that both peoples have been subjected to oppression and genocide on a level unprecedented in history.

King understood how important it is not to stand by in the face of injustice. He understood the cry, “Let my people go.”

Long before the plight of the Jews in the Soviet Union was on the front pages, he raised his voice. “I cannot stand idly by, even though I happen to live in the United States and even though I happen to be an American Negro and not be concerned about what happens to the Jews in Soviet Russia. For what happens to them happens to me and you, and we must be concerned.”

During his lifetime King witnessed the birth of Israel and the continuing struggle to build a nation. He consistently reiterated his stand on the Israeli-Arab conflict, stating “Israel’s right to exist as a state in security is uncontestable.” It was no accident that King emphasized “security” in his statements on the Middle East.

On March 25, 1968, less than two weeks before his tragic death, he spoke out with clarity and directness stating, “peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”

During the recent U.N. Conference on Racism held in Durban, South Africa, we were all shocked by the attacks on Jews, Israel and Zionism. The United States of America stood up against these vicious attacks.

Once again, the words of King ran through my memory, “I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews-because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”

snip

King had a dream of an “oasis of brotherhood and democracy” in the Middle East.

As we celebrate his life and legacy, let us work for the day when Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Muslims, will be able to sit in peace “under his vine and fig tree and none shall make him afraid.”

U.S. Rep. John Lewis, a Democrat, represents the 5th Congressional District of Georgia and worked closely with Martin Luther King Jr. during the civil rights movement.




Background: Martin Luther King's Birthday

What is less known about this great leader is his contributions to the Jewish community. While he devoted himself to the interests of the African-American community, he was a great friend to Israel and the Jewish people. He was very active in the battle against anti-Semitism and a vocal advocate for the release of Soviet Jewry.

Dr. King was a leader in Israel's right to be a free and secure nation. Just 10 days before his tragic death, he was quoted as saying that Israel “was one of the great outposts of democracy in the world.” He believed that it was the right of the Jewish people to live in their ancient land of Israel.

Dr. King believed that to act as an anti-Zionist was equal to being an anti-Semite and that it contradicted much of what the African-American was working to justify in Africa and other parts of the world. He frequently condemned acts of anti-Semitism. He understood that “the segregationists and the racists make no fine distinction between the Negro and the Jew.” In a letter to Jewish leaders, he attacked anti-Semitism “within the Negro community, because it was wrong. I will continue to oppose it, because it is immoral and self-destructive.”

Dr. King worked his entire life for a dream… a dream of equality for all mankind. For this reason, it is important and necessary that we take time to remember and celebrate the man and the leader that was Martin Luther King, Jr. and his contributions to the better world that we live in today.

http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=893

[Violet_Crumble]

72. No, the quote was not confirmed...

Please take the time to READ the article I posted a link to. It explains why the quote is a fraud. Continuing to use it is to defile the memory of Martin Luther King, and also to indulge in gross deception.


Violet...

[DoYouEverWonder]

31. Zionism has become synonymous

with radical right wing extremism.

Most people support Israel. With Zionism it is the ways and means that are the problem. Most Zionists since the time of Christ and probably before, seem to believe that the end justifies the means. Most Zionists believe that it is okay to kill people in cold blood as long as it is to protect the state of Israel or to mow down peoples homes has a form of collective punishment. I don't think the majority of Jewish people support their POV? At least not the ones that I know.

However, for the sake of clarity, I prefer to refer to Jewish members of the PNAC has Likudniks. It's their politics and policies that are the problem, not the majority of people who happen to live in Israel.

[geek tragedy]

33. Most Jews consider themselves Zionists, in that they support the right

of Israel to exist.

[DoYouEverWonder]

35. I don't buy that at all

Even though I'm a RC Italian, a good deal of my life has been sent around Jewish people, from the Jewish family that I lived with has a live in nanny, to my first husband, to my current husband and son who both have Jewish blood. I grew up in a NYC apt building where at least a few of the tenants has tattooed numbers on their arms. Not a single one that I know would ever consider themselves a Zionist just because they support the state of Israel.

[geek tragedy]

36. Did you ask them how they defined "Zionist?"

Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of Israel.

There are extremist Zionists, just like there are extremist Palestinian nationalists and extremist American nationalists.

"Zionists" is very often misused.

[DoYouEverWonder]

47. Language is not static

words change meaning over time. Gay used to mean happy. Of course, now a days it means much more than that.

Republican used to be a nice word too. Now I equate Republican with everything that is wrong with this country.

I think most people understand the negative connotation that the word Zionist has taken on and why.

It's just another label and in order to have discussions where you don't have to define every concept, certain words take on common meaning. It just makes it so much easier to communicate, don't you think?

[geek tragedy]

49. Negative connotation in whose view?

Again, Zionist does not mean Likudnik.

[DoYouEverWonder]

57. I already said I prefer the term Likudnik

You might notice that I was the first one to mention that term in this thread.

However, in many people's minds the word Zionist has taken on a negative connotation. That is a plan and simple fact. I am not passing judgment on whether or not this is a good or bad thing, it's just the way it is.

[Behind the Aegis]

73. No Judgment

So, because the ignorant have "hijacked" the word, Zionists should find a new word? And you are right; language is not static. Take the word gay, meant one thing, then meant 'homosexual,' and now the bigots and ignorant use it to mean "stupid, unappealing." So, will us gays need to find a new word because it has been usurped by the uneducated, ignorant, hateful, bigots?

[Colorado Blue]

41. If indeed that is the case, it's dead wrong. It's a deliberate

misinterpretation of the word and it should NOT be used in that way. In fact, this misuse of the term stems from a Russian book, a slander of Jewish people, called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", that was published in the early 20th century. It was false, a forgery, but it was widely disseminated throughout the world and people believed it. Apparently, some folks still do.

At the time, the Jewish people - Zionists included - were associated with the far LEFT. They were blamed for starting the Russian revolution. So you see how bizarre it is that the term is now associated with the far RIGHT. The fact is, either association is simply misunderstanding AT BEST, bigotry at worst.

"With Zionism it is the ways and means that are the problem. Most Zionists since the time of Christ and probably before, seem to believe that the end justifies the means. Most Zionists believe that it is okay to kill people in cold blood as long as it is to protect the state of Israel..."

I don't know WHERE you get that idea. It's simply a fabrication. First place, I'm not sure where you get the thing about pre-Christian Zionism. Zionism as a movement actually only began in the 19th century, although spiritual Zionism, the desire to return to Jerusalem, did begin AFTER the Diaspora, ie, after the time of the Romans - in the first century A.D.

And that desire was primarily expressed through song, poetry and prayer. We HAD no army, remember? We were an outcast, stateless, subject people. Whom could we have killed?

If you are speaking about the ANCIENT Israelites, indeed there were many wars in those days. And, like any other people, the Israelites fought to defend their people and their homes. That you mark them out as any different from Romans, Celts, Spartans, Persians, Babylonians, or any of the other people of time, suggests more than a little bias on your part.

And, the MODERN Israelis have been taking a beating since 1948, since the day of Israel's Declaration of Independence. Before that, Jewish people lived in the Middle East as second-class citizens AT BEST, and outright murders began in the 1920's. Please read the articles below for greater understanding.

I would consider it a personal favor if you would study this topic before you assume all these "cold-blooded killings." There have been several full-fledged wars and endless acts of terrorism against Israeli civilians. The conflict is between Israel and the 22 Arab League states, to some degree with other Islamic nations, as well as with the Palestinians. And it actually hasn't even been against the Palestinian people - but the militant groups who move in their midst, and who seem determined to destroy any chances for peace.

And, 900,000 Jewish people lost their homes throughout the Middle East, after 1948. This has hardly been a one-sided struggle. There has been great pain and plenty of blame to go around.

I've appended some links in another post. I'll copy them here. Please read them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Israeli_conflict

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

[geek tragedy]

50. "Zionists . . . since the time of Christ and probably before seem to

believe that the end justifies the means."

That statement is anti-semitic.

Do you know what they called "Zionists" before Jesus was born?

Answer: Jews.

Why not just call them Christ-killers?

[DoYouEverWonder]

58. Let's just ramp up the attacks

so this thread can get locked or dumped into IP. That is your goal isn't it?

[Colorado Blue]

60. I'm curious, what are the "Four Lights"? Thanks.. nt

[DoYouEverWonder]

62. It's a reference to an old Star Trek episode

Captain Picard gets captured and is subjected to torture. During the torture sessions, his tormentor wants him to admit that there are five lights when clearly there are only four. The only way Picard can make the torture stop is to admit that there are five lights. In the end when he is rescued, he stumbles out of the cell still insisting that 'there are four lights'.

One of the best Star Trek episodes ever.

[Colorado Blue]

66. Oh - I love Star Trek! I must have spaced on the episode:)

I think it's time for a new series?

[geek tragedy]

61. This thread was doomed for IP from the get-go. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

74. How bizarre!

You said: "Most Zionists since the time of Christ and probably before, seem to believe that the end justifies the means. Most Zionists believe that it is okay to kill people in cold blood as long as it is to protect the state of Israel or to mow down peoples homes has a form of collective punishment. Can you please explain how there were Zionists BEFORE the 19th century?! As there was NO Zionist movement until the late 1800's, it is really hard to believe there were roving gangs of murderous Zionists, since and before the time of Christ. Most Zionists DO NOT believe "it is okay to kill people in cold blood as long as it is to protect the state of Israel or to mow down peoples homes has a form of collective punishment." As there are many on this very board who are Zionists, that statement is offensive and uneducated, at best!

For someone who knows there are only 4 lights, it seems like you are trying to get many of us here to see 5!

[Coastie for Truth]

71. I would say you are right

I think many people who call themselves "Anti-Zionist" are really "only" anti Sharon- anti-Likud.

Just as many Europeans and Asians who call themselves "Anti-American" are really only anti-BushCo.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Why is a Jewish State preferable to an Islamic or Christian state?

I find all 3 undesirable. I'd much rather see a secular Israel/Palestine than 2 (more) religious states.

[Colorado Blue]

26. I think it's important to understand that the Jewish people

consider themselves a culture, a civilization. Also, in the 2,000 years of diaspora, being a tiny and frequently scapegoated minority hasn't worked out too well. Both Christians and Muslims, descended from Judaism, resent the Jewish people for not converting and both have consigned Jews to varying degrees of second-class citizenship, apartheid and demonization.

I think a lot of the misunderstandings about Israel, the Jewish state, stem from a lack of knowledge. Also, it should be accepted that Israel doesn't just exist for Jewish people, but has at least 1,000,000 Arab Muslim citizens as well, plus people from all over the world, of all faiths and ethnicities.

Israel is not a theocracy. It IS the only state in the world centered around the Jewish civilization. Many Israelis, like many Jews, are secular. The majority of her citizens are of Middle Eastern descent - many Jews have lived in Jerusalem, Hebron, Safed and other towns continuously, for thousands of years. Others lived in ancient Middle Eastern communities, until after 1948, when they were expelled in revenge for the establishment of Eretz Israel. Still others are refugees from the Holocaust. Others came from Ethiopia, Europe, Russia, America - just to be able to be Jewish and not fear being damned for it.

That is the essence of Zionism.

Jewish people only number some 13 million worldwide - two million less than before the Holocaust.

Is it so unreasonable that they should be allowed self-determination in their one tiny state?

After all there are 1.3 billion Muslims worldwide, billions of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and so forth, some of whom live in theocratic states and others of whom, like the French, the Greeks, the Germans, etc, live in states that are ethnically or nationalistically dominated by one group or another, and which follow one predominate religion, or another. And NONE of them would appreciate being told they can't live as a nation, or follow their religion or enjoy their heritage.

Yet the Jewish people have been the frequent objects of persecutions, scapegoating, stereotyping and outright attempts at extermination. People's attempts to delegitimize or demonize the state of Israel - ie, attempts to portray Zionism as evil or racist - are merely the latest in a long line of insults.

I'm appending some links, which I hope will help shed some light on these matters. Obviously, this is a very deep topic, spanning thousands of years of history, but at least these articles will open the door.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Israeli_conflict

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

[Bridget Burke]

27. The Palestinians aren't guilty for the Holocaust.

Why should so many of them lose their homes?

[Behind the Aegis]

28. The Jews aren't guilty for the Holocaust, either.

Why should they lose their UN sanctioned homeland?

[Bridget Burke]

30. They are still kicking Palestinians off their land.

Why didn't the UN give the part of Germany?

[Behind the Aegis]

32. I wasn't there...

I have no idea why the UN sanctioned it, or why the British gave up their occupied territory, guilt maybe?

[kiki]

40. I live in a street

that's predominantly populated by Hassidic Jews. The house across the street from me has a huge sign in the window reading "This house Rejects Zionism; Zionism is the shame of the Jewish people." Those anti-Semitic meshugenehs!

The other main group in my area is Muslims. In fact, there's a Muslim school and an Orthodox Jewish school pretty much next door to each other, with a bog standard state school across the road from them. Everyone seems to get along fine...

[Behind the Aegis]

42. And do you know why?

Do you know why they reject Zionism? Or is this another, "hey, those people think it, therefore, it is OK for us to say it?"

[kiki]

43. Ease up there, chief

I haven't asked them personally why they reject Zionism; as I understand it, there was little or no animosity between Muslims and Jews before Zionism, so that might have something to do with it. I believe the Hassidic point of view is that one shouldn't try to force God's hand; if it's prophesised, it'll come.

I'm not telling anyone what it is or isn't OK to say. But when you see a staunch Jewish house in a staunch Jewish area loudly and publicly being anti-Zionist, it's pretty hard to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism.

Is every white Christian that rejects the GOP some kind of crazy self-hating anti-white-Christian person?

[Behind the Aegis]

44. Easing up

But, see the anti-Semitic bigots (not sayinig you are) use their (Orthodox Jews) religious views, as justification for their (anti-Semitic bigots) anti-Zionism. Zionism, at least modern Zionism, is the support for a safe and secure Israel. The Orthodox are anti-Zionist because they are waiting for G-d to create Israel, not because they hate themselves or other Jews. The anti-Semitic bigots are anti-Zionist because they don't believe Israel should exist, and it's usually because of prejudice against Jews.

[kiki]

48. Well, it would appear to come down to semantics...

...because there are different types of Judaism. "Anti-Semitism" implies, I suppose, hatred of ALL Jews. You can't describe an anti-Zionist Jew as anti-Semitic, because there's a large section of the Jewish community - his/her own, obviously - to which they are not opposed.

Furthermore, I think anti-Semitism, like bigotry, implies an unreasoning hatred based on the grounds of religion, race, or difference in general. I think the reasons some people have for disliking Zionism can more accurately be described as political. It's possible to be opposed to the Zionist government's policies, but still believe that the Israeli people have a right to exist and to worship their god. Outright, bigoted anti-Semites would not believe this.

[Colorado Blue]

59. Some sects of Judaism, NOT mainstream, reject Zionism

because certain prophecies haven't been fulfilled - specifically, these involve the coming of the Messiah.

In this spiritual worldview, only the Messiah can rebuild the Temple.

Some of us figure we'll be extinct already:)

In any case, BTA is correct, internal disputes shouldn't be used by antisemites to try and retroactively delegitimize Eretz Israel. That's becoming distressingly common these days. The internet is getting loaded with amazing stuff.

I was seeking information ON THE SUDAN, on Google, and up popped a bunch of links trumpeting David Duke's theories about "Zionist supremacism" as a reason to reject Israel, which is really pretty funny considering the KKK's ideas about WHITE supremacism. Sadly, one of the links exploiting Duke's philosophy appeared to be an Islamic site. In this way misinformation and bigotry are spreading almost unopposed, to people who probably don't have the educational tools or the willpower to learn otherwise, or who are already predisposed to believe bad things.

It's very, very difficult to fight off this kind of thing. False ideas can be planted so quickly, and it's so hard to get people to study and achieve some degree of understanding.

BTW, I had a dance and music company when I was younger. We were of all faiths and we BOOGIED. My husband's business associate of many years is Muslim as are many of my own friends and associates. There is NO REASON people have to fight.

But, violence as a means of diplomacy has to be rejected, and talking embraced.

[Colorado Blue]

51. Well, I'll tell you. First place, Jerusalem is the spiritual center

of Judaism. And, even since the Diaspora, Jewish people have lived continuously in and around what is now called Israel - as well as in communities throughout the Middle East. Israel truly IS, the Jewish homeland.

At the time the Zionist political movement came into being, in the 19th century, the region was under the control of the Ottoman Empire. It was sparsely populated, and after much consideration it seemed to be the best alternative for the establishment of a Jewish state. The idea was NOT to harm or displace the native people, but rather to compliment them, to live side by side in harmony with them, and to combine the ideas, skills and talents of the Jewish culture with those of the local people. This has ALWAYS been the Zionist ideal, and its true goal.

The movement really picked up steam after the first World War, when the British had defeated the Ottoman Empire and taken control of the region. At that time, the Emir Faisal, the Arab leader who had helped defeat the Ottomans, agreed that idea of forming a Jewish state in the British Mandate of "Palestine" would be a good idea.

This is affirmed in the Faisal/Weizmann agreement and in his correspondence with Felix Frankfurter. It was thought that the Jews would bring money, a breath of new culture, and and new ideas to the region which had been moribund under the Ottomans. The League of Nations, meanwhile, was concerned that the Jewish communities of Europe were under increasingly dangerous pressure - which of course was true. So the Balfour Declaration was signed, giving permission for the western portion of the Palestine Mandate to be developed into a Jewish state. The eastern portion was given to the Hashemites - Faisal's family - as the Kingdom now known as Jordan.

The trouble began early, for a number of reasons - and were aggravated when the British appointed Haj Amin al Husseini, to be the Mufti of Jerusalem. This was AGAINST the express wishes of the local Arab leaders.

Trouble was stirred up, and many have blamed al Husseini for having started it. Some even have implicated the British - many widely blamed the Jews for "starting the Bolshevik revolution" - while they simultaneously romanticized the Arabs. On the other hand, there were cultural misunderstandings, there were problems between Arab families and within the Arab class structure itself. Many felt even at the time that the wishes of the local people were ignored or their needs, simply misunderstood.

Riots ensued, Jewish people were killed. They became extremely intense during the 1930's, though the first riot was in 1920 and the violence has never really ceased. The Zionist movement ran smack into several problems: a concurrent movement for Arab nationalism; indigenous contempt for Jews, and a lack of empathy for them or an understanding of their problems; and increasing violence in Europe, which resulted in WWII and the Holocaust.

The Holocaust was actually aggravated by events in the Middle East. This is a very large and dark chapter in the history of modern Israel, but it must be studied in order to understand the events of today. The wikipedia links I've appended to other posts in this thread, at least scratch the surface. But essentially, the British took the side of the Arabs, reducing Jewish immigration and preventing land sales to Jews, just as Hitler started warming up. Of course it must be mentioned that the British were desperate for oil, and to maintain their Empire.

This was IN SPITE OF the fact that Arab population and income increased along with the Jewish - much of it due to Arab immigration. Most of the land the Jews bought was purchased at exorbitant prices, was empty, mosquito-ridden swamp or desert. To this day, over half of Israel is the Negev desert. Yet, there was fear that the local Arabs would be disenfranchised, their futures threatened.

Indeed, one of the problems confronting the local people was the same one that has confronted us all: modernity, industrialization - the dramatic changes wrought in just one century. To the extent that the Jewish immigrants represented this new world, they were and are, resented and feared - as is Western culture in general, among many in the world of the traditional Middle East.

In any case, I will always believe that whatever problems existed could have been worked out rationally, had local leadership and the British, wished it to, had the Zionist settlers been less naive, more attuned to local custom.

Instead, the Jews were desperate, trapped, their dreams of a homeland vanishing just as the Holocaust began.

And, al Husseini actually went to Berlin, where he worked for Hitler from 1941 until the end of the war. Among other things, he broadcast terrible messages about killing Jews all over the Middle East. I believe this certainly helped set the stage for the wars between Israel and the Arabs that have haunted us through the decades since.

After the war, the British blockaded Holocaust refugees, trying to prevent them from coming home to Palestine. This is the story of the Exodus, the blockade runner. They also disarmed the Jewish fighters, who'd stood beside them during WWII, and threatened to fight for the Egyptian army. The Arab armies, meanwhile, were well-armed and trained.

It should have been a massacre but the Israelis survived. Why so many Arabs fled is the topic of many books. There is controversy to this day. Probably it was a combination of factors - belief that the Arab armies would prevail, the Jews would all be killed, and they could go home. The Israeli army chased many others away, there were killings and atrocities on both sides. The Israelis lost 1% of their population, many settlements, but the young nation survived.

Should we have lived with the Germans, instead of in our ancient homeland? The Germans despised us, they tried to EXTERMINATE us.

And from our point of view - I couldn't even accept the fact that my father is half German until I was 50 years old. I repudiated that part of myself, I damned that part of myself, I would NEVER have set foot in Germany. Its soil runs with Jewish blood.

And what of our heritage, our roots in Jerusalem, in the Middle East? We predate Christianity, we predate Islam, we predate Arab nationalism. We were never ALLOWED to live in peace, to build the dreamed of, peaceful, ideal state.

The day Israel was declared, the olive branch was extended. Five armies answered.

Does that help?

I've put some links into a couple of other posts, please read them. Here are some more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Emir-Faisal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal-Weizmann_Agreement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/mufti.html

[Violet_Crumble]

75. That's not what the Balfour Declaration said...

So the Balfour Declaration was signed, giving permission for the western portion of the Palestine Mandate to be developed into a Jewish state. The eastern portion was given to the Hashemites - Faisal's family - as the Kingdom now known as Jordan.

The Balfour Declaration did nothing of the sort. It didn't allocate specific territory to anyone. Because it's such a short document I'll post it here, and maybe you can post the alternate version you've found that gave all the land to the west of the Jordan River to the Zionists?

November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/balfour.htm

As for the rest of yr post, I can run through it and point out other errors if you'd like, cause there's quite a few that I've spotted :)

[K-W]

45. Many zionists wanted a secular jewish state.

The importance of a jewish homeland has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with the fact that jews have been perpetual immigrants for much of history with no safe haven from various forms of hatred and exclusion in lands that considered them foriegn and unwanted.

The problem was that Isreal is what was created and as soon as it was, anyone who didnt support Isreal as it was was called anti semitic and the zionist label was userped by Isreal supporters.

[geek tragedy]

37. Keep in mind that this cartoon is considered anti-Zionist

[Colorado Blue]

53. Nasser, Throwing The Jews Into the Sea:)

Ya gotta have a sense of humor:)

And G*D Bless Anwar Sadat.

[geek tragedy]

55. Yeah, things didn't work out so well for him, did they?

I believe the picture should show an Israeli foot up his ass.

[dogday]

39. some many freaking labels for people

I can't keep up with all this politically correct stuff...

[MisterP]

52. there are two definitions here for "Zionism":

a) is "we like Israel being there, but not necessarily its leadership"
b) is Likudnism, a "secuare a foothild for new Apartheid in the Levant at all costs and excuses" rottenness that the OP was presumably addressing

[geek tragedy]

54. Except that stating that all Zionists are Likudniks is like stating that

all liberals are Communists.

[Douglas Carpenter]

56. Here is a great website of Jewish scholars critical of Israeli policy

http://www.nimn.org/Resources/index.php



the link is here:

http://www.nimn.org/Resources/index.php

[Coastie for Truth]

67. Definitional Question

Does being a "Good American" mean buying into the PNAC/NeoCon agenda and into the Rapture Right Agenda and the whole Bush-Cheney-Rove Agenda like this icon of the Viet Nam war era-->
<>

or can a Progressive be a "Good American"

Does Rove define who is a good American - or MR Frist or Bush or Cheney or Falwell or James Dobson? Or do we individually.

Then why do we Progressives allow Likud and PNAC and the Haredis to define Zionism. You are going to read "Another Jewish Voice.." and "B'tselem" and "Peace Now" and Rabin's followers out of Zionism?

If you really can cut distinctions that finely, then you are engaging in the "fun and games" of the story in Genesis XXXVIII,7-9. Have fun! :)

[Lithos]

76. Locking

Per I/P guidelines - Not based on a recent news or op-ed story.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator
Democratic Underground