Ex-Mossad chief calls for World War in Jerusalem Post

[Frederik]

The Jerusalem Post is owned by Lord Conrad Black, Canadian-British neo-con operative whose Hollinger International also owns the London Telegraph and the Chicago Sun-Times. Richard Perle, that most eminent representative of the Rand Corporation/US Military-Industrial complex, is one of Hollinger's directors.

I hope former Mossad chief Efraim Halevi's reaction to the London attacks is not representative for the views of influential people such as Conrad Black and Richard Perle, but then again I know it is. It's about time we have us some of that thermo-nyook-ular warfare! Those missiles have been rusting in their silos for way too long, and all the Rand Corporation nuclear strategists are getting bored with the same old scenarios and dry practice.

"It cannot be said that seven years after this war broke out in east Africa, we can see its conclusion. We are in for the long haul and we must brace ourselves for more that will follow. The 'Great Wars' of the 20th century lasted less than this war has already lasted, and the end is nowhere in sight.

There will be supreme tests of leadership in this unique situation and people will have to trust the wisdom and good judgment of those chosen to govern them. The executives must be empowered to act resolutely and to take every measure necessary to protect the citizens of their country and to carry the combat into whatever territory the perpetrators and their temporal and spiritual leaders are inhabiting.

The rules of combat must be rapidly adjusted to cater to the necessities of this new and unprecedented situation, and international law must be rewritten in such a way as to permit civilization to defend itself. Anything short of this invites disaster and must not be allowed to happen."

(...)

"...the only way to ensure our safety and security will be to obtain the destruction, the complete destruction, of the enemy. (...) Profound cultural changes will have to come about and the democratic way of life will be hard-pressed to produce solutions that will enable the executive branch to perform its duties and, at the same time, to preserve the basic tenets of our democratic way of life. It will not be easy, but it will be essential not to lose sight of every one of these necessities."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer&cid=1120702711778&p=1074657885918

[HamdenRice]

1. Let's run this through our I-News 5000 Wi-Fi Headline Translator

Ex-Mossad chief recommends nuking South London and Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn???

[Deja Q]

2. Clinton did it! His big penis is the cause!!! Not our Saint Ronnie or *!

:sarcasm:

:eyes: :mad: :grr: x(

[kenny blankenship]

3. this war broke out in east Africa

Hmmm...many others would say it began in the West Bank.

[Frederik]

4. And yet others,

among them myself, would say this "war" does not exist. Mr Halevi would like to see all terrorism, including Palestinian terrorism in Israel, as part of a grand World War against well-defined enemies (the Muslims) who must be wiped from the face of the Earth, ever after which we'll all live happily (expect there's "no end in sight").

[leesa]

5. This is why I think the Neocons did London yesterday and 9-11 years ago.

People have to stop thinking of the Neocons as American Republicans...they are all over the world and they want all-out war for a variety of reasons (supremacy, Rapture, money, etc). A few thousand deaths here and there mean nothing to BushCo and these Neocons.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

6. What did Netanyahu know and when did

he know it ?

See No Evil: Spinning Netanyahu's London Terror Tip-off
The willful blindness of Israel's partisans is running smack up against a widely-circulated report in the mainstream media that Israel's Finance Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, was tipped off to the London terrorist attacks.

A news report from Associated Press reports:

"British police told the Israeli Embassy in London minutes before Thursday's explosions that they had received warnings of possible terror attacks in the city, a senior Israeli official said.

"Israeli Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had planned to attend an economic conference in a hotel over the subway stop where one of the blasts occurred, and the warning prompted him to stay in his hotel room instead, government officials said. ... Just before the blasts, Scotland Yard called the security officer at the Israeli Embassy to say they had received warnings of possible attacks, the official said. He did not say whether British police made any link to the economic conference.

http://www.antiwar.com/blog/index.php?id=P2205

[Frederik]

7. Oh great

You're going to get this thread deleted or hijacked by the don't-you-dare-mention-Israel crowd. Even though the article indicates British foreknowledge, not Israeli, the mere mention of the name of an Israeli politician is enough to condemn whoever wrote or even read the article as David Irving/David Duke-worshipping anti-semites.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

8. Even if we have a Yahoo story ?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050707/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_britain_explosions_1

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Perhaps you and your source didn't get the update.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050707/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_britain_explosions_3

Just so you know...first reports are often wrong. The idea is to be the first to break the story, even if it is wrong!

[Frederik]

12. To be precise

Ambassador Zvi Hefetz and Silvan Shalom now contradict the original story. The new story is most likly the correct one, but to use words like "debunked" about an official denial is dishonest.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Didn't say debunked

I simply stated that the first story was in error and later corrected. Anytime a story emerges about a politician, espcially an Israeli one, then is updated/corrected, the 'theories' begin. But, as I said, first reports are alomst always wrong. It is more about "getting the story," as opposed to "getting it right."

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seemslikeadream]

19. The IRA wasn't involved either

:shrug:

[geek tragedy]

20. The IRA was *briefly* considered by some a suspect.

The IRA had set off bombs in London before. The Mossad hadn't.

[Frederik]

21. A agree that asking about Netanyahu's foreknowledge

was irrelevant to a story that indicated British foreknowledge. I also agree that the original story was probably not accurate.

[Coastie for Truth]

28. Listen to the "chatter" from "suicide bombers" yourself

-- Alinco DJ-X3 J Handheld Wideband Comm. Receiver/Scanner

This is the DJ-X3J model, not the crippled USA/EUROPEAN (DJ-X3T/DJ-X3E) models being sold by other sellers! Unlike those other models, this one comes with frequencies fully unblocked, a voice inversion descrambler, and a bug detector!

**NOTE**The scanner interface/menu/buttons are in english! But the instruction manual/box is in Japanese. I will include the english manual in PDF format, at the winners request.
<>

and you can descramble and monitor cell phone conversations - just like Mike Chertoff and Tom Ridge and Mossad.

I really don't know what the big friggin deal is about picking up Arabic chatter - and notifying a visiting Israeli honcho.

[Frederik]

29. I doubt they picked up chatter just before the attack

I doubt there would be cell-phone chatting about this shortly before it was carried out.

[Coastie for Truth]

30. I am glad you doubt so

There is a difference between "cell-phone chatting" and "chatter" of the type that is of more then minor interest to a communications intelligence ("commint") technician - some just the presence is valuable intelligence data.

You might seriously try Bamford's books ("The Puzzle Palace : Inside America's Most Secret Intelligence Organization" and "Body of Secrets : Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency") or Elliot Okins book ("My 23 years in naval communication intelligence and other recollections") or even Allen Campens' ("The First Information War: The Story of Communications, Computers, and Intelligence Systems in the Persian Gulf War"), or even Ron Spector's book ("Listening to the Enemy: Key Documents on the Role of Communications Intelligence in the War With Japan"). Just a change in the volume of cryptic (I said "cryptic" - not "crypto") cell phone traffic in Arabic can be intelligence of "something about to happen."

Seriously, maybe that's the kind of naivete that the NSA displayed on the morning of 9/11 - or that Naval Intelligence (yes, pre-cell phone days - but cell phone is just a kind of radio with "store and forward" and "addressing" through "routers" and "repeaters") displayed on 12/7/41.

[kenny blankenship]

10. So what?

Your post demanding to know what someone knew seems full of the implication that he shouldn't have known it. So what?

Say you are the London police. Minutes before bombs go off, you get a tip or information that a terrorist bombing is about to happen. Just that much, no specific targets given, and maybe also in getting the information you learn that the bombers are Islamic extremists. Wouldn't you call the Israeli Embassy to inform them that they in the Embassy could be at risk, or individual Israeli officials or VIPs in the city?

[Coastie for Truth]

27. More like Tom Ridge's color codes

every time that there was "chatter" on the web.

BTW - go to eBay -- and search on "scanner" and "unblocked" --- (try item 5786679863) -- you can get a scanner for under $150 that descrambles the scambled cell traffic. That's some of the "chatter" that the NSA, the CIA, Scotland Yard, Mossad, etc. listen in on.

When you hear "chatter" - kick up the alert level.

[Just Me]

9. Alrighty, then. That guy is a friggin' lunatic! Delusional, homocidal,.

,...total schizo who should be placed in a padded room this very minute.

[porphyrian]

13. How the fuck did there get to be so many fascist Jews?

I can't fucking wrap my brain around this. Maybe he's secular...?

[Just Me]

15. Anyone CAN be a fascist. Anyone.

There seems to always be fascist-types in every culture or nation.

[porphyrian]

16. I know, I guess I just find it paradoxical with Israelis...

...given that it was fascism that decimated the Jews in the first place. I guess people have short memories, or perhaps they become what they beheld, or something...

[Frederik]

22. Well, there have been plenty of fascist Japanese, Germans,

Italians, Spaniards, Americans, Frenchmen, Chinese, Arabs, Latin Americans and Englishmen. No one is immune to this disease.

[donkeyotay]

17. This is the defining argument

The difference between those who think we can win this war against a tactic and those who think we're making it worse:

"...the only way to ensure our safety and security will be to obtain the destruction, the complete destruction, of the enemy. (...) Profound cultural changes will have to come about and the democratic way of life will be hard-pressed...

It's hubris. First, they want to destroy democracy to save it. Second, it ain't gonna work. Look at the demographics of the world: the population is skewed toward young and Muslim. In my old age, I seriously did not think it a good idea to piss off several billion young people. How many of these people do they want to kill to obtain "complete destruction of the enemy?"

Why did the right buy into the idea that being measured and reasonable is weakness? Discussing what terrorism is, what it's causes might be would not have made us less safe, and would not have prevented us from using military options. When did stupidity become a virtue?

[pelsar]

23. its not that simple......

because in some circles being "measured and reasonable" as the way your western oriented culture defines it IS looked upon as being weak in some cultures. (very ethnocentric of you....)

You first have to accept that what is totally acceptable to some cultures cannot live within a western democracy: such as honor killings, slavery, shari punishments....I doubt you would sit quiety while your neighbor slices his daughters throat for going out with your son....

some of those cultures/societies perhaps can be educated to accept a foreign culture such as the west, but that is hardly a sure thing. Examples abound of subcultures living in western democracies and not accepting western values, and they endanger democracy far more than an terrorist bomb.

the cause of terrorism?...one thing research has shown is that its not about being poor....the other factors such as education, nationalism, religion have strong influences...

democracy within the west is far more flexible than you seem to believe....WWII being one example. Democracy is an ideal thats being changing since its conception as it adapts to the changing environment....2005 is no different.

[methinks2]

24. It's pretty scarry for regular people when the people

like him help run the country. Jeez!!! I spent time with a number of these people he doesn't want in his country. Of course the fact that the indigenous population of Israel/Palestine was supposed to be left alone in their own places and with their own religions just wasn't remembered after the newbies moved into the neighborhood.

It's amazing how ignorant of simple cause and effect some people can be. People like him think that if you kick an old dog every day, it's the dogs' fault when the dog finally gets up and bites you in the ass. Another analogy is the wife-beater who wonders what happened when the beaten wife finally decides to buy a gun. Geez. Get a clue!

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Yes it is.

And he has many an Arab counter-parts throughout the Middle East, just at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Of course, I find it amazing how ignorant people can be of the situation and think it is so "cut and dry."

[methinks2]

26. You're right . . . the people I met there were all

pretty normal. I met people of all faiths and most just want to be left alone. It's the noisy wing-nuts and the governments/militaries that screw-up the countries.

[pelsar]

31. military/govt people?

but "they are people too"...those people in the govt and in the military are actually citizens of their country...and they too believe, just as you do in what they are doing. In fact some have joined the govt, get elected, chose a military career BECAUSE they care...your dismissal of them as if they are not a "regular person" or some kind of "lesser person" borders on a broad generalization that fits the dehumanization process.

[methinks2]

33. I was face to face with more than one military

person at checkpoints. Most of the ones I met were racists. They treated all indigenous peoples as the enemy. I met a girl from Chicago who has lived in the occupied territories for six years, she can tell some real eye-witness horror stories of how these checkpoint military people abuse the natives and how they've treated her. Perhaps your military people need to work on their people skills.

Save your rhetoric for someone who wan't over there last month. I've seen reality and it isn't pretty. (If reality is hard to stomach, you work to change the bad parts.) As long as you occupy native people, they will fight back. If you don't like it, stop the occupation. It's as simple as that. And I will speak out as an American Christian whose tax dollars buys the armaments that these military people wear and drive. As long as Israel takes my tax money I have a right to speak my personal experience and give eyewitness testimony. What I saw was racist apartheid! What I saw was persecution of other Christians and what I heard was their testimony of their experiences living in their homes and suffering from snipers and shelling. I also spent time with wonderful and loving jewish people who work for peace and reconciliation. But the military people at checkpoints were something that I can never forget!

[eyl]

34. When the enemy is indistinguishable

from the civilians - deliberately so - then they'll all be treated like the enemy. Sadly, the lesson Hamas and their ilk have taught the IDF is that compassion at checkpoints is potentially lethal.

[methinks2]

41. once again, stop the occupation and there is nothing to

discuss. Period. Simple. Same solution is applicable in Iraq.

[Coastie for Truth]

42. Once again stop the ...

Once again stop the attacks on school buses, children's play grounds, shopping malls, discos, Passover Seders, Bar Mitzvah and Wedding Receptions--- and there is nothing to discuss --- period. simple.

Once again stop blocking the recognition of Israel's Magen David Adom (Red Star of David) as a full voting member of the International Commission of the Red Cross/Red Crescent (they were there providing aid after the tsunami)--- and there is nothing to discuss --- period. simple.

Once again stop the boycott, dhimmi, Jim Crow, apartheid of Jews in the Diaspora (who have never lived, worked, or studied in Israel)--- and there is nothing to discuss --- period. simple.

---Nothing to discuss --- period. simple.

[eyl]

43. If

terrorism had started with the occupation, you might have a point.

[methinks2]

50. I've studied a little of the terrorism in that region

No one is innocent on that topic.
The occupation is killing the country. The climate is lovely over there, the regular people I met were the most hospitable. But the place won't find peace while over half the population doesn't have freedom. Good grief, we fought a civil war in this country to give rights to everyone. A lot of people were opposed to giving the full rights to african/americans, but in the end it was the right thing to do. It was the moral thing to do. I'm sure that the good old boys could have argued their case against giving rights all day and night. And I'm sure they could have pulled a few cases of violence committed by the oppressed as an excuse not to give freedom to the african/americans. This is the same type of situation. It is what it is.

[Coastie for Truth]

35. As an NGO Emergency Responder

I work with Police, Fire, and EMS -- inside the "Yellow Tape."

You are describing what is a fairly "typical" (Thank God not "majority" or even not "plurality" - just very common) police personality type.

TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE

Do you really think Specialist Grainer was an atypical corrections officer in the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections before he joined the Guard? - spouse abuse in Pennsylvania, apparent BSM on the prisoners at Abu Ghraib?

[pelsar]

38. natives and indigenous peoples....

i admit to finding those "definitions" amusing to a certain degree...who defines them?

if someone leaves.....are they still considered a "native"?....and if so is there a statue of limitations on that definition?...does it apply to their kids?...grandkids?....how many generations?

you have confused racists with racial profiling...since suicide bombers and their handlers come in all packages: from kids, to women to adult males all are suspect and we have the death count to prove it... it may not be pretty, but it works, our death count is down quite considerably...and for that we neednt apologise. There is a cost for a population that uses suidice bombers as a means, and when they use kids, women, etc, the cost is even higher.

as far as "racist apartheid"..in your attempt, like many, to demonize us as racists (check the definition of the word) you yourself are acting as a racist. Those "military people" are the sons and husbands, cousins and neighbors of those "loving jewish people" your attempt at somehow seperating us from our defense forces doesnt work here.

as far as the "horror 'stories of how she was treated....it doesnt compare to have our busses blown up in our streets....thats a better definition of horror.

[methinks2]

40. the number of terrorist acts that

have happened do not justify the persecution of the larger population. And I cannot stress that fact enough. The reaction of the Israeli police and military to acts of terror is frequently unbalanced. It's time to stop occupying the majority of the population. Period! How many Americans do you think will still support you if they find out that the majority of Christians in that country are persecuted. They suffer a loss of civil rights because they were born as Christians instead of being born Jewish? And that is despite the fact that their anscestors have always lived on that land. They also have a birthright. Why are they denied full rights? If you want to continue receiving billions of dollars in aid from a mostly Christian country than I suggest you stop persecuting people because of their race and religion. Either make everyone a full citizen and withdraw your troops or make the 2 state solution and withdraw from their half of the country. The sooner you do that the better it will be for all the people. The system you are currently using is not working. If it was working you wouldn't need to occupy anyone. You would have Peace with your neighbors. But as long as you occupy people because you say their race of religion is different you will create the type of situation that leads to what you have now. If you leave the people with no hope they will do desperate things. Anyone who has taken a single psychology course will know this. It's basic cause and effect.


I have been there and know that the palestinian population looks about the same as the Israeli population. Only when people choose to wear outside and obvious signs of their religion can you be sure of which religion a person belongs. That's the real irony of the situation.

[pelsar]

44. willfully ignorent? or blind....

But as long as you occupy people because you say their race of religion is different you will create the type of situation that leads to what you have now

ok this is a new one for me....we are occupying the palestenians because of THEIR RELIGION and RACE! oh boy...any help here from my usual adversaries?

sheesh.....you dont know a whole lot about the population and citizens of israel either that or something is clouding your eyes.

We are occupying them cause of a war in 67, and we are continuing to occupy them today for a variety of political/military and religious reasons..nothing and I repeat nothing has to do with either the religion or race of the palestenains in the westbank or gaza.


sheeesh...where did that come from! (somebody doesnt know much about israel dispite the vast amount of info available.....)

and as far as your comment that "terrorist acts do not justify persecution of a larger population"...in a perfect world I agree, in my world of harsh choices and reality, its the only thing that stops it in the short run...and its the only thing that succeeded and continues to do so.....until the next opportunity comes along in a august/september

and for the final comment.....i understand you have been in the westbank and israel, so you have seem much of what actually goes on-me too.

[Colorado Blue]

46. Wow. One is speechless. But I will try:)

[methinks2]

51. where you have justice you have peace

"and as far as your comment that "terrorist acts do not justify persecution of a larger population"...in a perfect world I agree, in my world of harsh choices and reality, its the only thing that stops it in the short run...and its the only thing that succeeded and continues to do so.....until the next opportunity comes along in a august/september"

Hey, what you're already doing over there is not working. If it was working people wouldn't need steel shutters over their windows. People wouldn't be afraid. Where you have justice you have peace. If most of the jewish population wants to have a all jewish state, the two-state solution is the answer to the problem. But just doing what you're already doing doesn't work and has never worked.

[Behind the Aegis]

45. Where did you come to this conclusion?!

"How many Americans do you think will still support you if they find out that the majority of Christians in that country are persecuted. They suffer a loss of civil rights because they were born as Christians instead of being born Jewish? And that is despite the fact that their anscestors have always lived on that land. They also have a birthright. Why are they denied full rights?"

What is this "Christian persecution?" What rights are they denied?!

"If you want to continue receiving billions of dollars in aid from a mostly Christian country than I suggest you stop persecuting people because of their race and religion. " I am sorry, but this is just rich! Is this the same 'mostly Christian' country responsible for their own illegal occupation? Is this same country responsible for the enslavement of an entire RACE of people? Is this the same country which is trying to pass an amendment to ensure that its gay tax-paying citizens can't receive the same legal rights of others? Glass houses.

[methinks2]

52. hey, american screwed up royally in the past, as we're

messing up now. Of course as a war protester myself I take no responsibility for what happened in Iraq, I oppose that and always will. As far as america's past mistakes, a few of my anscestors were abolitionists. We've always been for the rights of the oppressed. But as a girl who has lived in the south for most of my life, I know what racism and oppression smells like. And I smelled it big time over there.
FYI-- most Christians in the holy land live in occupied territories. They don't get the pretty yellow license plates on their cars. And they are forced to apply and reapply on a regular basis for permits to work. That is not equal rights. That is oppression because they aren't jewish. If you want to be a democracy, than walk the walk.

[Colorado Blue]

47. This is the most amazing explanation of the situation I have

EVER heard.

The occupation has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION or anything else resembling it, it has to do with with the war in 1967 in which the territories were occupied as a matter of self defense.

As per UN Resolution 242, land was to be returned IN EXCHANGE FOR PEACE, which has never arrived. Statehood for the Palestinians has been rejected. Peace proposals and attempts to deal individually with the 22 Arab League states have been rejected. Indeed, prior to 1967 the "Palestinians" were in fact part of Egypt and Jordan. Meanwhile the security problems for the TINY state of Israel continue to be enormous. You can check out the IDF website for reports and graphs on the number of terror attacks that succeed vs. the HUGE number that are stopped before they happen.

If you are concerned about the evils of the occupation I suggest you please contact Arab leadership and advise them of the virtues of peace, tolerance, and non-violence instead of accusing Israel of religious discrimination.

Treatment of non-Muslims and non-Arabs - and even minority Muslim groups - throughout the Middle East and large swathes of Africa has historically been discriminatory to the point of genocide. It was only a few decades ago that 1,000,000 Armenian Christians were massacred, some 700,000 Assyrian Christians also, and other minority groups like the Egyptian Copts are under severe pressure.

There is in fact a specifically religious aspect to modern Islamist warfare and it isn't coming from the Christians OR the Jews. Whole peoples have been wiped out, are being wiped out, in Africa. Al Qaeda and other Islamist groups are presently attempting to scuttle the "hudna" - the calm, in Israel. Warfare against modern Jews and finally, against Israel, has at times taken on the rhetoric and flavor of "holy" war.

Please do some BASIC reading. The lack of essential comprehension on even the most fundamental principles of history is absolutely astonishing. I'm not talking ancient history, I'm talking the last few decades. Here are a few links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Israeli_conflict

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/ (This is the website of a Sunni Imam and professor of Islamic history)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

http://www1.idf.il/dover/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=22&docid=37572.EN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_antisemitism

This last article is interesting because it includes a talk page, with argument. People presently are attempting to misconstrue "antisemitism" which is discrimination or bias against Jews, with "anti-Arabism" - also evil but NOT THE SAME THING. Attempts to confuse the issues are part of the propoganda attempts to retroactively delegitimize Jewish history, not to mention Eretz Israel, and I find them despicable.

[methinks2]

53. the actions of a handful of radicals are no exucse to persecute

a larger population. The plain truth is that the bar is raised so high that it's impossible to reach. Blame this one on the politicians and anyone else who profits financially from the continuation of the violence.

[Coastie for Truth]

49. Gimme a Break

How many Americans do you think will still support you if they find out that the majority of Christians in that country are persecuted. They suffer a loss of civil rights because they were born as Christians instead of being born Jewish?

As they say in the oil patch of the Texas-Louisiana Gulf Coast -- COW PATTIE

1. I started out as an engineer trained only - ONLY - for the petroleum industry. The Jews don't keep the Christians out of the petroleum industry. Other way around.

2. I can't take communion at my daughter-in-law's church -- but in our Reform Temple, just this past six months - we have had two Latter Day Saints (grand parents of the Bar/Bat Mitzvahs) called to the Torah for an Aliyah; and we have had a United Church of Christ member (also a grand parent of the Bar/Bat Mitzvah) called to the Torah for an Aliyah. So please.

3. I have had Persian Shiia families at our Reform Temple for Purim services - to celebrate how a Persian Emperor's concubine saved the Emperor.

4. See also my append .

6. I know real Progressives -- and I know "wannabe" progressives. And, as I said in my append 39

[methinks2]

54. Hey, I attended a friday shabbat at a kibbutz while I was there,

I am not slamming your religion, In fact I happen to think your social structure is very successful. Women are respected in the reform jewish religion. If it wasn't for this nasty little occupation thing I would probably convert. But the occupation is not working. If it was working you would have peace. Where there is justice there is peace.

[pelsar]

55. forget about 67:

"but the occupation is not working. If it was working you would have peace. Where there is justice there is peace."

gosh does that mean that before 67 we were living in peace with our neighbors?.....seems you dont seem to understand our neighbors very well.

btw you have a strange religous beliefs is you would convert if there was no occupation...what kind of belief in god is that? a fair weathered kind of belief?

[methinks2]

56. My belief is in the spirit and word, not the laws added at

a later date by some politicians. Politicians always add addendums to the original document. I was raised as a seventh-day-adventist so although I am a generic Christian at this time, I am already accustomed to the usual rules on diet etc. . . I also consider Jesus to be a Jewish Rabbi. My hesitancy about converting has to do with who I'll be hangin with afterwards. I need to see loving people who worship with their spirit, and open their hearts and souls. Religion has a lot to do with community. The reason I don't attend too many churches around my area is that they all seem to filled with the usual southern american good ol' boy Guns and Jesus mentality. I believe that The commandment "Thou shall not kill" should be followed as law. If that commandment is not followed because a government has ordered differently, than the first commandment is being broken. No even Country should come before G-D. "Thou shall have no other G-d before me". I'm just looking for people like me, and I not joining anyone's club until I find them.

(oh, and about '67, I am personal friends with a crewman of the
"U.S.S. LIberty", so I understand the what really happened.)

[IndianaGreen]

57. "Thou shall not kill" is not in the Ten Commandments

The actual translation from Hebrew is "You shall not commit murder"!

[Coastie for Truth]

58. You don't know what really happened with Liberty - or Pueblo

The Chief of Naval Intelligence screwed up Liberty - didn't tell the operating forces or the Israelis that Liberty was there, even denied that it was there. Chief of Naval Intelligence put out a cover story that the ship was a "false flagged Russian ship" and then another cover story that the ship was a "false flagged Egyptian troop carrier."

Then, just eight short months later the Chief of Naval Intelligence screwed up Pueblo the same way - didn't tell the operating forces, or the South Koreans or the Japanese that Pueblo was there.

The "truth" about Liberty is in both:
1. CAPT A. Jay Cristol, "The Liberty Incident"
2. CDR Lloyd Bucher, "Bucher:My Story"
and also alluded to in the report on Pueblo.

Why am I so concerned --

BECAUSE IN 1945 MY DAD'S "NAVAL INTELLIGENCE" RECON PBY CATALINA WAS LOST AT SEA - AND THE INTELLIGENCE TYPES SAID THAT HE AND HIS CREW WERE IN AUSTRALIA. IT WAS PURE SERENDIPITY - AND A GREATER FORCE - THAT HE AND HIS CREW WERE SIGHTED AND SAVED BY ANOTHER US SHIP -- THE INTELLIGENCE ASSHOLES SAID HE WAS IN AUSTRALIA ---UNTIL HE AND HIS CREW MADE IT BACK TO THE TENDER.

Quite frankly the Chief of Naval Intelligence lies to cover his butt. That is part of his job. The Chief of Naval Intelligence could have prevented this tragedy by either telling Israel's Military Attache in Washington or Commander, SIXTH Fleet, that Liberty was there - instead of concocting false flag stories (per CAPT A. Jay Cristol, "The Liberty Incident" and CDR Lloyd Bucher, "Bucher:My Story", and the Official United States Navy Report on Pueblo.)

[pelsar]

59. personal friends...so?

being personal friends of someone who was on the liberty underfire does not give that person any special knowledge of the goings on within the israeli air force or navy. It just means they were shot at by two flights of jets and some pt boats who were trying to sink the liberty.....

but that a whole another thread..

[Djinn]

60. no but you're conveniently forgetting that the Nakba

occured long before the occupation - maybe it caused some bad blood too, while I don't support some of the suggestions in this thread, pretending that Palestinians had no cause for anger prior to the occupation is seriously erroneous

[Coastie for Truth]

39. The subject append pushes my personal envelope

I started in elective politics as soon as I learned about Mi Lai and the "truth" about the Gulf of Tonkin. (Altho as a kid I remember my parents and grandparents were always discussing politics - in those days before TV and the Web)

My initiation was at the time that Democratic politics and Progressive Politics were being molded by the "Great Events" of the era--

---Brown v. Board of education
---The "All Deliberate Speed" doctrine to school integration
---The Civil Rights Act of 1964
---The urban riots

And I was in a Progressive Club in a "changing neighborhood" in an urban community in the heart of the Rust Belt -- and the Northern Tip of Appalachia-- so these are my rules from that era and those life experiences.

I now apply what i call the "Post-Brown versus Board of Education" rules of political discourse to all appenders I come across..

What are the "Post-Brown versus Board of Education" rules of political discourse -- well they became demeaned as "Political Correctness" but in practice they meant that if you so much as raised an eye-brow over even the silliest demand -- you were drummed out of the Progressive Movement.

If you even chuckled over the demand of a tiny group of minority EMT students (a four month course - my Mom taught it) that they be awarded a "Doctor of Medicine" degree - you were read out of the Progressive Movement.

If you questioned why the ACLU was not lead in Bakke - you were thrown off of the ACLU Board (actually happened to a Law School Assistant Dean who "wrote the book on Section 1983.").

And one of the corollaries to the "Post- Brown v. Board of Education" rules -- the target got to determine what was offensive.

By the standards of the "Post-Brown versus Board of Education" rules of political discourse, many appends on I/P are personally objectionable. I really don’t care who it is conflating who with who – I apply the Administrators’ Rules ("Proper Use of Certain Words") in accordance with the "Post-Brown versus Board of Education" rules of political discourse – including "Political Correctness" and "It Is The Target’s Call As To What is (Anti-Black, Anti-Hispanic, Anti-Asian, Anti-Jewish, Anti-Muslim, Anti-Female, Anti-Handicapper, Anti-Eastern European Ethnic, Anti-Catholic, whatever)."

And so,

Most of the ones I met were racists.

And I will speak out as an American Christian...<footnote>

Footnote

Crusades
Jim Crow
Slavery
Comstock Laws
Failure to speak out during Holocaust
Selective application of doctrine of political asylum - SS St.Louis
Gay bashing
Burning Abortion Clinics
Murders of Chaney, Schwerner and Goodman by a "Christian Preacher"

lends no credibility to what the "target" perceives as "racist."

[bemildred]

32. What a moron.

I'm sure he is representative of the "thought" Perle and Black. The "We just have not killed enough yet" theory, like it was just a matter of giving up all your civil rights and freedoms, suspending all your mental functions, and gritting your teeth real hard until it's your turn to die for these fuckwits, so that pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by will make it all better someday. Pie-in-the-sky never comes, and these fellows never get enough power, and you can't fix being violent and stupid by being more violent and more stupid.

[IndianaGreen]

36. Conrad Black no longer owns Jerusalem Post nor heads

Hollinger International. He was ousted as CEO for mismanagement, and I believe he has been sued by Hollinger.

Now, as to Efraim Halevi's rant, I dismiss it outright as another of those Bush-like and Blair-like appeals to emotion while dulling our senses to reason and facts. Fact of the matter is that Tony Blair shares the blame with the terrorists for this cowardly attack on innocents in London. It was Blair that ignored the millions of Britons that marched against his war alliance with the criminal Bush. Over a million marched in the streets of London!

The roots of terrorism lie in the injustices of the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan by the US.

I won't be joining Mr. Halevi's call for a world war against terrorism, a war that will certainly doom our planet to more barbarism on the part of American militarism and the deaths of millions of innocents throughout the world. Instead, I call for an immediate withdrawal of US and UK troops from Iraq, and for an end of American support for despotic regimes throughout the world, e.g., Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc.

I also call for a complete withdrawal of the US from the Middle East. It is clear that the US will never play a constructive role in the Middle East due to domestic considerations. Once the US is out as Israel's nanny, the Israelis will be more motivated to seek peace with the more rational members of the Palestinian community.

Let us also realize that there are real evil people in this world that won't rest until Israel ceases to exist and every Jew is dead. Let us also recognize that the only country in the Middle East where women are fully emancipated, and where gays are not killed for just being gay, is in Israel. While this is no justification for the occupation, nothing really is, it is enough reason to challenge those in the Left that see Israel as an abomination, a cancer that should be removed, all the while ignoring the true nature of many of Israel's enemies.

[Coastie for Truth]

37. Recipe for a total US Withdrawal from the ME

Indiana Green posted:

I also call for a complete withdrawal of the US from the Middle East. It is clear that the US will never play a constructive role in the Middle East due to domestic considerations. Once the US is out as Israel's nanny, the Israelis will be more motivated to seek peace with the more rational members of the Palestinian community.

I have ranted long and hard on the and the - I have quoted from the (pessimistic and Malthusian) works of James Howard Kunstler ("The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of the Oil Age, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-first Century" and DVD- "The End of Suburbia"). I have quoted from the technical and scientific, optimistic works of Kenneth Deffeye's works ("Beyond Oil : The View from Hubbert's Peak" and "Hubbert's Peak : The Impending World Oil Shortage") - and the scientific and even more optimistic works of Amory Lovins ("Winning the Oil Endgame") and Lovins and Hawken ("Natural Capitalism: Creating the Next Industrial Revolution") and Paul Hawken ("The Ecology of Commerce: A Declaration of Sustainability ").

We are only going to get out of the ME when we truly become
ENERGY INDEPENDENT

No Saudi Oil, No Iraqi Oil, No Persian Oil, No Caspian Sea Oil, No Black Sea Oil, No Indonesian Oil, No West African Oil, No Russian Oil -- probably no Mexican or Canadian or Venezuelan Oil! No imported oil - we are not going to let our Oil President and our Oil Vice President and their cronies screw up Canada, mexico, or Venezuela like they screwed up the ME.

ENERGY INDEPENDENCE

And if you think Israel, or Sharon, or Likud, or AIPAC is the cause -- look at our vehicle fleet, and our "transportation" oil consumption, and its impact on our balance of payments ---

Link: http://eed.llnl.gov/flow/

- I have even done the research.

This is all about American Blood For Oil -- it is all about our heroin like addiction to ever bigger Sport Utility Vehicles -- it is about our phobia of urban living and our headlong rush to transit unfriendly, pedestrian unfriendly suburban gated communities (see Jared Diamond) -- it is all about our 1940's and 1950's and 1960's and 1970's and 1980's manic rush to trash mass transit.

It is all about
AMERICAN BLOOD FOR FOREIGN OIL

It is all about
OUR ABYSMAL FAILURE
TO ACHIEVE
ENERGY INDEPENDENCE

In fact, it is all about our only energy success
ACHIEVING EVER GREATER
ENERGY DEPENDENCE

Israel or no Israel - Sharon or No Sharon - Likud or No Likud - AIPAC or NO AIPAC --

If we don't get our ENERGY HOUSE IN ORDER

Kunstler's World ("The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of the Oil Age, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-first Century" and DVD- "The End of Suburbia") will be a nightmare come true.

[Colorado Blue]

48. Amen. NT.