"Anti-Semitism"

[DemsUnite]

Anti-Semitism

It could never happen here!

When most people hear that phrase, they think of the Holocaust. They think and hope that nothing like that atrocity could ever happen here in the United States. But, that is not what I want to discuss. I want to discuss anti-Semitism. I often hear that anti-Semitism doesn’t exist on the “left” because that would be “unprogressive.” Yet, I see much of it here. I feel some are unaware of their prejudices, and others, well, I feel they can be as anti-Semitic as they desire and slip under the radar. So, it is best if we understand what anti-Semitism is and what it isn’t. We need to understand how, seemingly benign statements, are actually rife with anti-Semitic rhetoric.







It is best, perhaps, to start with what the definition of anti-Semitism is. Dictionary.com defines it as two things: 1) Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism, and 2) Discrimination against Jews. These definitions are from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. At this site, another source, WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University, states it is “the intense dislike for and prejudice against Jewish people.” These are the definitions I am using as I write this piece. It is important to notice these definitions do not say it is discrimination based on Semitic genetics or heritage. I mention this because some contend that certain groups, usually Arabs, cannot be anti-Semitic because they too are Semites. Even if genetics or heritage were part of the definition, it would discount someone being anti-Semitic because they are Semitic; for you see, even Jews can be anti-Semitic...

more

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=60876&subForumID=160831&action=viewTopic&commentID=3568545&topicPage=

This is an interesting piece that gives insight into the feelings of some Jewish progressives. I am not Jewish and may not agree 100%, but found it enlightening.

[Beaver Tail]

1. You cannot say anything that is negative about Israel

wihtout being acused of being Anti - Semitic to the public in general. It doesn't matter how much proof or facts you bring forth about specific crimes.

[Dhalgren]

5. Right!

Because I am opposed to the policies and behavior of the state of Israel does not mean that I hate Jews or that I am prejudiced against them. A lot of people, here, can't seem to make nor understand that distinction...

[patcox2]

57. Acknowledging that Bin Laden attacked us because we support israel

is also held to be anti-semitic, despite that Bin Laden repeatedly says it himself. Instead we must say "they hate us for our freedoms." Pointing out that several important neocon architects of the Iraq war were openly employed operatives of the LIkkud party is also anti-semitic.

[Coastie for Truth]

61. bin Ladin also said he attacked the US because

US oil companies massively ripped off the Arab people.

---Reference: Craig Unger, House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties


<>

[K-W]

2. I dont think Ive ever seen an anti-semitic comment on DU.

Nor in any of the progressive circles I have participated in.

Im sure it exists, but its never been an apparent problem as far as I could tell.

[geek tragedy]

21. Read further down in the thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4136924&mesg_id=4137514

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Actually

There have been quite a few. The mods are usually pretty good at weeding them out. There was one post that inspired another thread praising the post. 11 people, on the new thread, said how good the post was...how it 'spoke' to them. The post being praised was anti-Semitic and deleted. The thread praising the post was locked with a message from the mods stating that they were locking the thread because, after discussion, they (the mods) deemed the post being praised as anti-Semitic.

On edit: Here is the thread...http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3786654#3793912

[Rich Hunt]

58. well...

I haven't encountered it in progressive circles, but then I've had people ask me if I was Jewish, so maybe these anti-Semites are just asking so they know whether to avoid me.

However, I will say that some affluent pseudo-liberals still espouse a (veiled) anti-Semitism. They try really hard to hide it, but it does get back to people. A lot of times people think they can hide by using "code words". Not that I've seen much of this on DU - however, I tend to hide from the more inflammatory forums where some of this stuff might be lurking.

[BurtWorm]

3. Maybe you could give an example of left anti-Semitism

I never ever see anyone exhibiting what you're talking about--"intense dislike for Jewish people" or "discrimination against Jewish people." Where do you see this on DU?

[Coastie for Truth]

62. Maybe not on DU (although that's a matter of opinion)

just get on the BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) and get off at the and walk two short blocks east to and pick up a copy of

[Endangered Specie]

4. anti-semitism is not presence on this board....

those that show anti-semitic stripes are discarded of.

Criticizing Isreal, on the other hand, is very much allowed (and, understandable).

[China_cat]

6. The holocaust was a horrible thing

But I have never understood why the survivors were given land belonging to someone else in the middle east rather than being given back the things they were deprived of in their various countries...homes, land, jobs, etc.

It just doesn't make sense that a 3rd party (who, as far as I can tell, was just as much a target for their 'racial characteristics') was punished for the horrors of the Nazi party.

[Spinzonner]

8. I think you're oversimplifying a bit

Zionism preceeds the Holocaust and there were Jews in Palestine from well before the war.

British commitments also date from before the war but there's no doubt that collective guilt among the western nations over failing to prevent - or even deal with - the Holocaust during thwe war played a string part in actually following through and creating the state of Israel.

And, of course, there's much, much more ....

[KG]

7. any criticism of israel and/orit's policies is usually responded to with

a cry of 'anti-semitism' as a way to censure discussion of those policies.

also pops up when criticism of joe lieberman is expressed.

it is lame and a cop-out.

[BoneDaddy]

9. Anti-semetism

The truth as I see it.

I am anti-fundamentalism, whether it be among Christians, Muslims, Jews, Conservatives, Liberals, science, history etc. I am against governments fueled by this form of fundamentalism, be it GW's Christian Right, the Mullahs and ruling elite of Islam or the Zionists in Israel.

Just because I am critical of these government heads does not imply that I am against the people of those countries. That is the game of conservatives...to play the "race" card (so to speak) by implying if you are critical of Israel's policies you are anti-semetic.

The thing no one talks about is how Israel uses the horror of the Holocaust to justify their actions. The Jews, as a group, have suffered greatly throughout history, their is no doubt about that, mostly at the hands of Christians by the way, and not Muslims. But this horrible suffering has been twisted and abused. You would think that a people who had endured so much pain would be more sympathetic to the pain of others and not repeat the cycle of abuse that was done to them. It is an incredible dynamic to watch.

Let me say for one that I am not indicting Jews as a group but the state of Israel. A vast amount of Jews are progressive and have been the backbone of progressive policy, especially in the USA, and they, too, are critical of Israeli policy. They can see the inconsistencies of raising awareness of the Holocaust and then turn around and become like the enemy. The victim has become the abuser.

People are reluctant to criticize the "victim" and this is what protects the victim. They can act as they want and when confronted, they will remind you of how much they have suffered and accuse you of being anti-them, and label you as the "abuser" or "racist" or "antisemetic".

It is a very effective defense, as people typically will back off. Just my two cents.

[bloom]

11. It's pretty insulting

for people to charge others with being racist when the others object to their actions. And pretty annoying when people try to pretend that they are unreproachable because of what has happened to their group in the past.

If we are going to learn anything - there are victims all over the world today that people do not pay much attention to. It seems like it makes sense to me to be concerned about today's victims. It makes sense to try to avoid painting any group of people with a broad brush like was done to the Jews by the Nazis. And that includes what is being done to Muslims and other non-Jewish-semites by many people.

[wallwriter]

12. I'm Jewish, and I truly dislike Joe Lieberman.

I'm not too fond of Arlen Specter, either.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

16. ditto... I LOVED PAUL WELLSTONE!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

17. Ditto. n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

10. An interesting looking message board.

Upon a quick perusal, it appears to be full of tombstoned DUers with alot of posts focusing on what's wrong with DU. Kind of like a couple of other sites I'm aware of.

I find the post that you link to to be rather simplistic and black and white in its thinking. I don't think it's possible to determine anti-Semitism by the application of a simple algorithm based on particular opinions about a particular state. An interesting perspective though. Welcome to DU.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crunchy Frog]

31. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

That was what I saw when I just sort of skimmed it briefly. I do wish you luck on your new site, and hope that it doesn't degenerate the way I've seen some sites do.

[DemsUnite]

56. I understand

and we intend to maintain a good relationship with our progressive sister sites.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemsUnite]

22. I apologize to those offended

But you provide an example of what concerns the writer of the piece!

[Terran]

45. In case you haven't noticed

that person was a troll, i.e., not a regular/legit mameber of this forum who is likely a conservative. So I'm challenging you to come up with an actual example of anti-Semitism you've seen at DU that was written by a member in good standing. I've never seen it here, and frnakly I think you're just blowing smoke by starting this flame-bait thread.

[geek tragedy]

47. The person had over 900 posts.

So, sometimes it takes a long time for them to out themselves.

True progressives of course don't buy into anti-semitism. But there are plenty of people like that racist ghoul who hang around here pretending to be on our side.

[Touchdown]

29. Yes.

If you are criticizing official Israeli policy on the occupied territories, and some rogue Israeli officials looking the other way while the tanks are crashing into houses, then no. If you think they are doing this because they're jews (which is what you're saying), and that they would not be doing it if they weren't jews, then you are prejudiced and anti-semitic.

Likewise, with Pearle, Wolfowitz, etc. Are these greedy thugs who have taken their influence with Bushco to enrich themselves? Absolutely, but they're not thugs because they're jewish. They're thugs because they're thugs.

[beam me up scottie]

39. Exactly.

Well said.

[geek tragedy]

14. The problem isn't from anti-Jewish sentiment here as it is a couple of

other things:

1) People not taking anti-semitism seriously. Just as there are those who wrongly equate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism, there are those who are unwilling or unable to recognize that SOME critics of Israel are anti-semitic, e.g. whatreallyhappened.com, etc etc.

2. Anti-semitic loons try to infiltrate progressive circles with their messages. They'll pose as progressives, put out nominally anti-Bush websites that actually contain a much darker agenda. One frequently sees this with conspiracy websites like whatreallyhappened.com, Rense, etc.

[Just Me]

18. Proving that opposing the policies of Israel's leadership is NOT,...

,...NOT NOT anti-Semitism.

Thank you for clarifying that!!! :bounce:

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

20. Unfortunately, for some reasons anti-Semites are drawn to this site.

They're not progressives, but they pretend to be. I just wish these people:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4136924&mesg_id=4137514

would figure out that their agenda is not compatible with DU's.

[beam me up scottie]

25. A worldview fed and validated by conspiracy sites.

Revolting.

[geek tragedy]

28. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was the first tinfoil hate conspiracy

theory.

[beam me up scottie]

30. I think most people don't bother to look

at where these sites originate or notice the hatred behind them.
If the site backs up their theory, they post it.
At least, I hope that's the case with most DUers.

[r0x0r Mc0wnage]

33. The deleted post was in NO WAY anti-Semitic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4136924&mesg_id=4138043

Criticism of Israeli government policy does not equal hatred for a religion or those who practice it.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Ah, but it was.

It was laced with anti-Jewish sentiment and that is what is called anti-Semitism!

[geek tragedy]

38. People who don't think the following statement

is anti-semitic:

""Is it anti-semitic to be angry about Jews who have infiltrated the highest levels of our government to twist our foreign policy to benefit their own criminal interests?"

have a complete lack of credibilty on the subject, as they are either anti-semites themselves or have the perceptive abilities of a rock.

[Darwins Finch]

42. As are Zionist apologists

Viewable in this thread here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x96086

Understand that I have no patience with fundamentalists of any stripe. Yet there's something magical about the Israeli Zionist fundamentalist movement that somehow makes it better than the American Christian Dominionists or Islamic Jihadists. Why else would people who otherwise decry the barbarity of these latter fundamentalisms rally so hard to defend the former?

Apparently some people are so enamoured of Zionist purity that anyone who speaks out against it is automatically a Jew hater (rather than someone who opposes the excesses of Israel). According to this poster, I myself am apparently (if also unwittingly) a member of a cafefully orchestrated hidden cabal, here to seed poison across DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x96086#96092

See? See how the numbers add up? The very imprimatur of the anti-Jewish cabal!

:tinfoilhat:

Clearly, the Protocols aren't the only bit of conspiratorial nonsense in people's heads here. Nor the only flavor of bias.

[Behind the Aegis]

48. What is a "Zionist apologist?"

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

50. I think many "apologists of Zionism" would disagree with your

definition of "Zionism." If "Zionism" simply means wanting Israel to succeed and prosper, that is not the same thing as the religious freakazoid agenda of the Likudniks.

[Behind the Aegis]

52. Better to ask than assume.

Zionism is not synonymous with Jewish fundamentalism. It seems there are quite a few people who are confused by that term. Zionism is not support for the Likud, but support for a safe and secure Israel.

[Coastie for Truth]

71. But that is not the conventional street wisdom

of the Looney Left of Berkeley, Cal State SF, Ann Arbor, and Madison. The Looney Left parrots the bizzaro line that "Zionism is synonymous with Jewish fundamentalism."

[Violet_Crumble]

74. That's a bit of a simplistic take on Zionism...

There are as many different forms of Zionism as there are empty beer cans in my noisy neighbours trash pack after a party night. They range from revisionist zionism (that's where the Likud came from)through to post-zionism. Mainstream Zionism is a support for Israel as the Jewish homeland, but unfortunately Jabotinsky's expansionism has crept into the mix over the years, and there are some (predominantly in the US) who confuse Zionism with support of the ongoing occupation of the Palestinians. Ongoing occupation and violence are at odds with a safe and secure Israel, but that doesn't seem to click with some of those folk...

Violet...

[Jim Sagle]

64. I'm a Zionist, but I don't apologize one bit.

Zionism is simply the doctirine that Jews need a homeland like everyone else. Who could disagree?

[Jim Sagle]

63. For anyone looking, this is a damn good sample right here.

[Minstrel Boy]

23. examples, please:

"We need to understand how, seemingly benign statements, are actually rife with anti-Semitic rhetoric."

If you're legitimately concerned, help us to understand. Don't just throw shit at us and expect us to say "Please sir, may I have some more?"

[Behind the Aegis]

27. Read the whole piece. n/t

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

34. Try reading the piece!

No one says it is anti-Semitic to critize Israel.

[beam me up scottie]

36. You're in on it,

aren't you ?
:evilgrin:

[Behind the Aegis]

40. Moi?

In on what?! :)

[beam me up scottie]

43. It's okay,

I'm in on it too. ;)

[Jim Sagle]

65. Quick, cash yer check before it bounces.

;-)

[beam me up scottie]

67. Wow, thanks.

Got to the bank just before it closed!

Nothing brings the bigots crawling and squirming out of the sewers like a thread calling for tolerance, eh ?

I love the smell of hatred in the morning, er, evening.

[Jim Sagle]

69. Morning, evening, schmevening. We control the time zones anyhow.

If I'm so powerful, why am I still pounding out COBOL code? :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

70. You mean you're not ?

Well, back to being an atheist...
:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

41. Self delete.

Mixing up the name callers here...

[geek tragedy]

44. Actually, that poster didn't post the anti-semitic post.

The poster of the deleted post in this thread has been tombstoned.

[Selatius]

46. Criticism of the Israeli government is not necessarily Anti-Semitic

Am I angry with the Israeli government's colonialist policies in the West Bank/Gaza Strip? Am I disappointed that the US government would wage a damn war in the name of disarming a country that supposedly has WMD even though the state of Israel has far greater destructive capacity with its own stockpile of nuclear weapons? Do I feel anger at the Israeli government's attack on the USS Liberty and the whitewashing by the damn federal government even though it is beyond question those American sailors were deliberately, systematically attacked?

Yes, I'm angry at all of this as well as a litany of other wrongs committed by the state of Israel or the US federal government, not to mention the UN resolutions Israel continues to ignore and the others the US has vetoed to death, but does that mean I hate Jewish people? No. A person can hate a government but hold no ill-will towards its subjects (the people). I detest the federal government, for instance, but that does not necessarily equate to detesting the citizens of the US. I am NOT a self-hating American.

Even though it is true that certain high level government officials are Jewish (i.e. Wolfowitz, also an avowed Zionist), my complaint with the current regime is their corrupt policies (or no policy whatsoever), not their religion. I could give two shits what their religion is. Wolfowitz belongs on the same list of people I detest the same as Bush and Cheney because of their corporatism, not their religion.

BTW, if you want to know what corporatism is, just read my signature.

[CWebster]

51. Criticism of Israel for it's barbaric and racist occupation

is NOT antisemitism - nor are Jews who speak out against the policies of Israel "self-hating Jews". And it is insulting to the memory of the Holocaust that far Right fundamentalist Likkud neocons hide behind the sheild of guilt and martyrdom to prevent any balance in popular perception.

[understandinglife]

59. Exceptionally well stated. Thank you.

WATCH IT; SPREAD IT http://www.bushflash.com/right.html

Peace.

www.missionnotaccomplished.us - How ever long it takes, the day must come when tens of millions of caring individuals peacefully but persistently defy the dictator, deny the corporatists their cash flow, and halt the evil being done in Iraq and in all the other places the Bu$h neoconster regime is destroying civilization and the environment in the name of "America."

[bloom]

53. I disagree with the above posted piece.

It gives a definition:

1) Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism, and 2) Discrimination against Jews. 

And then goes on to say to basically say that anyone who disagrees with a whole slew of viewpoints is anti-semitic - some of which some Jews themselves would think. The end result is it sounds like if anyone disagrees with any of that persons viewpoints on Israel, zionism, or 1967, that person is anti-semitic.

It's a way of saying that if you disagree with me you are a bad person.

It is just things like that that weakens the word and makes it meaningless.

[Behind the Aegis]

54. Read it again.

The piece clearly says there are many factors. But, I agree that saying Israel should not even have its 1967 borders can be anti-Semitic. It basically calls for an end for the state of Israel. One can disagree with a viewpoint and not be anti-Semitic, but to do so while wish ill on Jews or against them, then that is anti-Semitic.

[bloom]

55. I...

don't think it is any different than if I had a special, denigrating word that meant you are an evil, vile, person for disagreeing with me - because you agree with the OP and I don't.

[Coastie for Truth]

60. My personal rulesof Anti-Semitic, Anti-Arab, Anti-Christian postings

I am an "almost geriatric" liberal from the Hubert Humphrey era, when Baker v. Carr and Brown v. Board of Education and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act were hot off of the presses.

I apply the "Post-Brown versus Board of Education" rules of political discourse to all appenders I come across..

What are the "Post-Brown versus Board of Education" rules of political discourse -- well they became demeaned as "Political Correctness" but in practice they meant that if you so much as raised an eye-brow over even the silliest demand -- you were drummed out of the Progressive Movement.

If you even chuckled over the demand of a tiny group of minority EMT students (a four month course - my Mom taught it) that they be awarded a "Doctor of Medicine" degree - you were read out of the Progressive Movement.

If you questioned why the ACLU was not lead in Bakke - you were thrown off of the ACLU Board (actually happened to a very Progressive Law School Professor who was the ACLU's "Go To Guy" on "Section 1983.")

AND ONE OF THE RULES -- THE TARGET GOT TO DETERMINE WHAT WAS OFFENSIVE.

By the standards of the "Post-Brown versus Board of Education" rules of political discourse, some appends are just personally objectionable – and I really don’t care who it is conflating with who – I apply the Administrators’ Rules ("Proper Use of Certain Words") in accordance with the "Post-Brown versus Board of Education" rules of political discourse – including "Political Correctness" and "It’s Is The Target’s Call.

To those who may have forgotten, the rules as to

Proper use of certain words:
• Please exercise extreme caution and sensitivity when using the words "anti-Semitism" or "Zionism." There is a wide range of opinion on the meaning of these words. If you must use them, please make sure your intended meaning is clear.
• Do not use the term "Zionist" to mean "Jew" or "Israeli." Do not use the term "Jew" to mean "Israeli".
• Do not call Palestinians "terrorists" unless you are actually talking about people who blow up cafes or busses filled with civilians.
• Do not compare Middle East regional leaders and parties to Hitler or the Nazis. Use of these terms is considered inflammatory and should be avoided.
• Do not call other members of this message board "terror apologist," "Palestinian apologist," "Israeli apologist," "Nazi," "Fascist," "Sharonist," "Likudist", etc.

which I apply in the spirit of "political correctness" and the era of "All deliberate speed."

[Behind the Aegis]

66. Fascinating.

The topic was anti-Semitism and what do we see, whining and belly-aching about how "I can't post negative things about Israel" without being labeled. Well, I call BULLSHIT!

In the LBN alone, there are more than 50 threads criticizing Israel and not ONE claim of a poster being anti-Semitic. I didn't read through all 50 threads, but I did read a good many of them. I did see CHALLENGES to people's assertions, but that is not "calling one" anti-Semitic. I didn't even wade through the other forums, much less this one, but it is very plain to see that, not only is it possible to criticize Israel and not be labeled an anti-Semite, but it happens ALL THE FUCKING TIME!

The real problem is not people calling others anti-Semitic, the real problem is posters copping out to a FAKE charge that they think will supposedly be levied against them if the choose to post an anti-Israeli piece/post. But, what else do I see? I see pro-Israeli posters being equated with neo-cons, Likudniks, Bush supporters, fake progressives, and freepers.

I really doubt that one post could be found where a pro-Israeli poster claims that all criticism against Israel is anti-Semitic, but from the belly-aching here, it would lead one to think that it happens all the time! IT DOESN'T!

[beam me up scottie]

68. BINGO !

"the real problem is posters copping out to a FAKE charge that they think will supposedly be levied against them if the choose to post an anti-Israeli piece/post."

The same ones who post those pieces over and over again and then complain that they don't understand why their posts keep getting deleted.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. It's my turn to call bullshit now...

In the LBN alone, there are more than 50 threads criticizing Israel and not ONE claim of a poster being anti-Semitic. I didn't read through all 50 threads, but I did read a good many of them.

Considering accusations of anti-semitism are deleted by the mods, it would be impossible to find one claim of a poster being anti-semitic. See, pretending it doesn't happen is like pretending anti-semitism is never seen at DU - both claims are wrong, and just because the mods delete that stuff when it's posted doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We don't even have to wander out of the I/P forum to have witnessed accusations of anti-semitism levelled against those who voice opposition to Israel's policies in the Occupied Territories because I've been a victim of those claims in this forum. I took a quick squizz at the board that simplistic and badly written post came from and some of those who levelled those accusations at me are over there posting away...

The real problem is not people calling others anti-Semitic, the real problem is posters copping out to a FAKE charge that they think will supposedly be levied against them if the choose to post an anti-Israeli piece/post.

What I think is a problem is when people have such a problem with criticism of Israel's policy in the Occupied Territories that they label that criticism as 'anti-Israel'. Sorry, but criticism of the policies of a state doesn't make that person anti-that country. I'm very critical of some of the policies of my own country, so I guess I'd be labelled anti-Australia by those who label criticism of Israeli policy as anti-Israel? Or is there some different rule that gets applied to Israel maybe? And the accusations of anti-semitism aren't fake, as I explained in the previous paragraph, but I've never been worried about what label gets slapped on me by those who want nothing better than to shut down discussion of this issue that doesn't suit them....

I really doubt that one post could be found where a pro-Israeli poster claims that all criticism against Israel is anti-Semitic,

I hope yr not going to bet on that because those claims have been made in the past in this forum. Unless you want to insist on seeing a post that hasn't been deleted in which case yr right, because they always get deleted.

but from the belly-aching here, it would lead one to think that it happens all the time! IT DOESN'T!

Yeah, kind of like the belly-aching where people try to lead one to believe that anti-semitic comments happen all the time, right?

Violet....

[Scurrilous]

72. Liberal Underground...

...oh my!

[Lithos]

75. Locking

Per I/P guidelines - vanity website. Also stories must be based on a new or recent op-ed article.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator
Democratic Underground