Vatican denounces some Israel retaliation

[sabra]

<<SNIP>>
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apmideast_story.asp?category=1107&slug=Vatican%20Israel

Vatican denounces some Israel retaliation

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

VATICAN CITY -- The Vatican on Thursday denounced some Israeli retaliations against past terrorism as a violation of international law in an ongoing spat over Pope Benedict XVI's failure to specifically condemn terror against Israel in recent remarks.

The Israeli Foreign Ministry summoned the Vatican envoy to Israel on Monday and complained that Benedict "deliberately" didn't mention a July 12 suicide bombing in Netanya while referring to recent terror strikes in Egypt, Britain, Turkey and Iraq.

"It's not always possible to immediately follow every attack against Israel with a public statement of condemnation," a statement from the Vatican press office said Thursday night, "and (that is) for various reasons, among them the fact that the attacks against Israel sometimes were followed by immediate Israeli reactions not always compatible with the rules of international law."

"It would thus be impossible to condemn the first (the terror strikes) and let the second (Israeli retaliation) pass in silence," said the statement, which had an unusually blistering tone for the Holy See.

<</SNIP>>

[IA_Seth]

1. Tell it like it is pops! n/t

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DanCa]

2. "Some" I thought you can't pick and choose (nt)

[jsamuel]

4. wowza!

[Behind the Aegis]

5. Typical.

Hate the country, not the people, you over-dressed boob!

[Coastie for Truth]

6. Ma' Nishtanoh

Edgardo Mortara (August 27, 1851–March 11, 1940), a Jewish-born Italian Catholic priest, became the centre of an international controversy when, as a six-year-old boy, he was seized from his Jewish parents by the Papal authorities and taken to be raised as a Catholic. The Mortara case was the catalyst for far-reaching political changes, and its repercussions are still being felt within the Catholic Church and in relations between the Church and Jewish organisations.

On the evening of 23 June 1858, in the central Italian city of Bologna, police of the Papal States, of which Bologna was then part, arrived at the home of a Jewish couple, Salomone ("Momolo") and Marianna Mortara, to seize one of their eight children, six-year-old Edgardo, and transport him to Rome to be raised by the Catholic church.

The police had orders from the authorities in Rome, authorised by Pope Pius IX. Church officials had been told that a Catholic servant girl of the Mortaras, Anna Morisi, had baptized Edgardo while he was ill because she feared that he would otherwise die and go to Hell. Under the law of the Papal States, Edgardo's baptism made him a Christian, and Jews could not raise a Christian child, even their own. In his relation in favor of the beatification of Pope Pius IX, Edgardo himself noted that the laws of the Papal States did not allow Catholics to work for Jewish families. That law was widely disregarded.

Edgardo was taken to a house for Catholic converts in Rome, built with funds from taxes levied on Jews. His parents were not allowed to see him for several weeks, and then not alone. Pius IX took a personal interest in the case, and all appeals to the Church were rebuffed. Church authorities told the Mortaras that they could have Edgardo back if they converted to Catholicism, but they refused.

The incident soon received extensive publicity both in Italy and internationally. In the Kingdom of Piedmont, the largest independent state in Italy and the centre of the movement for Italian unification, both the government and the press used the case to reinforce their claims that the Papal States were ruled by mediaeval obscurantists and should be liberated from Papal rule.

Protests were lodged by both Jewish organizations and prominent political and intellectual figures in Britain, the United States, Germany, Austria, and France. Soon the governments of these countries added to calls for Edgardo to be returned to his parents. The French Emperor Napoleon III, whose troops garrisoned Rome to protect the Pope against the Italian unificationists, also protested.

Pius IX was unmoved by these appeals, which mostly came from Protestants, atheists and Jews, and were thus without moral force for him. When a delegation of prominent Jews saw him in 1859, he told them, "I couldn't care less what the world thinks." At another meeting, he brought Edgardo with him to show that the boy was happy in his care. In 1865 he said: "I had the right and the duty to do what I did for this boy, and if I had to, I would do it again."

The Mortara case served to harden the already prevalent opinion in both Italy and abroad that the rule of the Pope over a large area of central Italy was an anachronism and an affront to human rights in an age of liberalism and rationalism. It helped persuade opinion in both Britain and France to allow Piedmont to go to war with the Papal States in 1859 and annex most of the Pope's territories, leaving him with only the city of Rome. When the French garrison was withdrawn in 1870, Rome too was annexed by the new Kingdom of Italy.

<>

The Vatican's doctrine that baptism of any child, even by lay people, required that the child be raised as a Christian was one manifestation of its doctrine that Christianity was the true religion. While the doctrine was not explicitly directed against Jews, in practice it applied only to them, as the only non-Christian religious minority in the Papal States and the only religion besides Catholicism whose exercise was allowed.

At Pius IX's accession in 1846 Jews in Rome were required to live within a squalid ghetto. At first Pius showed some liberalising tendencies towards the Jews. In particular, he relaxed laws requiring them to live in specified neighborhoods and repealed laws requiring them to attend meetings where priests encouraged their religious conversion. But after the attempted republican revolution in Rome in 1848, Pius changed his mind: like most conservatives at this time, he associated the Jews with radicalism and revolution. Jews continued to be taxed to pay for schools for formerly Jewish converts to Catholicism. Their testimony against Christians was still not admitted in courts of law. Theirs was the only religion besides Catholicism that could lawfully be practiced by Italians; Protestant worship was allowed only to visiting foreigners.

Wikipedia Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara

Amazon Link: Kertzer, The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679768173/qid=1122582761/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_sbs_1/002-2961057-2920035?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[IndianaGreen]

8. Is Pope Ratzinger guilty of what happened on 23 June 1858?

Talking about a strawman argument, this one takes the cake!

[centristo]

7. when both sides are wrong

who do you condemn?

[IndianaGreen]

9. Peacemaking in the Catholic Tradition: a Guide to Research Introduction.

DUers may find the following information very interesting and useful to the current discussion involving the Pope and the terrorist attacks in London and elsewhere. The Vatican has consistently opposed the killing of innocents everywhere regardless of the pretext used.

Those familiar with my postings probably recall my many posts about Pax Christi, the Catholic pro-life, antiwar, and anti-death penalty organization (I am familiar with its South Bend chapter, they marched against Bush went he went to Notre Dame to give a speech). Here is another similar group that GloriaNYC turned me on to:

Peacemaking in the Catholic Tradition: a Guide to Research Introduction.

The student of Catholic peace history will find that Catholicism has a long tradition of peacemaking.

A tradition that continues to evolve as our understanding of the intimate relationship between peace and justice deepens.

This tradition has included a range of thought and various positions on an appropriate Christian response to war and the bellicosity of nations.

During War II, for example, it included support for the just-war doctrine, which holds that under certain circumstances and under certain limitations war is justifiable (see the Catholic Association for International Peace).

Pacifism, on the other hand, which insists that war can never be morally justified, was brought into the sphere of American Catholic thought by Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin (see the Catholic Worker movement).

It challenged the just-war doctrine and has evolved into an active non-violence, which often uses civil disobedience as a means of protest.

http://www.catholicsforfaithfulcitizenship.org/Peacemaking.htm

[Coastie for Truth]

10. A better source ---- the Unitarian Universalist Association

Link: http://www.uua.org/actions/immediate/02peace_and_justice.html

Unitarian Universalist Action of Immediate Witness


Because our Unitarian Universalist Principles call us to affirm the inherent worth and dignity of every person, justice and equity in human relations, and the goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all; and
Whereas Rev. William Sinkford, President of the Unitarian Universalist Association, has spoken out on the Middle East conflict in a pastoral letter of March 27, 2002, calling for "our congregations to educate themselves on issues and to engage in honest conversation";
Whereas in 1982 the Unitarian Universalist Association General Assembly adopted a General Resolution encourage and culture a comprehensive peace settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and calling on all parties to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the others;
Whereas Unitarian Universalists have supported and affirmed the rule of law and the positive role of the United Nations in building a world community;
Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 emphasizes "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace," and other United Nations resolutions have re-affirmed Israel as the "Occupying Power" bound by the Fourth Geneva Convention, "which is applicable to all the Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967";
Whereas the United States government is responsible for a significant portion of arms sales to this over-armed region, thus furthering its instability;
Whereas the Middle East situation has been deteriorating with increased violence on both sides and increased military oppression;
Whereas United States diplomacy has not led to peace or security for the region; and
Whereas the World Conference of Religions for Peace, an organization co-founded by the Unitarian Universalist Association, has responded to requests from the Prime Minister of Israel and the President of the Palestinian Authority by calling for a "religiously sanctioned cease-fire" and recognition of Israel and Palestine as states with secure, internationally recognized borders;
Therefore, be it resolved that the 2002 General Assembly of the Unitarian Universalist Association urges the following principles as a basis for action by the governments of the United States and Canada:

-----Freedom from occupation and equal rights for all, including the right to exist in peace and security.
-----Opposition to Israeli settlements, land confiscation, house demolitions, and other violations of international law.
-----Opposition to all attacks on civilians, whether by suicide bombers, F-16 or helicopter gunships, or any other means.
-----Support for a central United Nations role in efforts to achieve a comprehensive, just, and lasting peace.

Be it further resolved that the 2002 General Assembly calls on

-----the Israeli government to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention and international law;
-----Palestinians to immediately stop suicide bombings and all attacks on Israeli civilians;
-----the United States government to

1. "suspend all transfers of those types of weapons and munitions used to commit human rights violations until Israel is clearly in compliance with the terms for arms transfers as expressed in United States law and bilateral agreements," as Amnesty International has called for, and
2. work within the United Nations for a just peace that includes two viable secure states, Israel and Palestine, based on the 1967 borders, with mutual relations based on sovereignty and equality; and
3. our congregations to:

become educated on Middle East issues and engage in honest conversation;
redouble their efforts for peace based on the goal of justice and human rights for all;
support actions of the anti-occupation Israeli peace activists, including Rabbis for Human Rights and the Israeli reserve officers who refuse to serve in the Occupied Territories;
encourage Jewish Americans and others who support Israel but oppose its occupation of Palestine; and
condemn and oppose expressions and acts of anti-Semitism and acts of terror against Jews, Palestinians, or Arabs and their legitimate institutions wherever they may occur.

Two millenia of bad blood can't be changed by one group of Progressives priests and laity.

[Englander]

11. Is the Pope a "Unitarian Universalist"? Has he converted? n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

12. Get real

the Unitarian-Universalist Association is an "honest broker"

The Papacy (NOT INDIVIDUAL CATHOLICS) has a tragic history of bad blood with both groups - going back to the Council of Nicea, the Crusades, the Inquisition, and extending forward.

[Englander]

13. No, I aint "git a thing" against Non-Trinitarian Christians...

Whoever/whatever they may be.

Isn't the Pope,y'know,a Catholic?

Shouldn't any ongoing discussion be primarily
about the Catholic tradition,& any reforms,rather
than an unrelated religion?

[IndianaGreen]

22. Perhaps you should start your own thread about the Unitarians

in one of the many fine forums upstairs. Or post something about past grievances against the Catholic Church in the Catholic forum. I am certain you will find a lot of agreement there that the Mortara case was not the Church's finest hour, but you will also find out that since the papacy of John Paul II the Vatican has gone to extraordinary lengths to remedy historical wrongs done to the Jewish people.

The topic of this thread is the current spat between Israel and the Vatican on the Pope's condemnation of recent attacks of terrorism. Israel felt slighted by the Pope's failure to include a recent terrorist attack in Israel in his condemnation. The Vatican responded by saying that it is hard to condemn terrorism in Israel when Israel's immediate response to a terrorist attack is as deplorable as the attack itself.

So here we are!

[Scurrilous]

14. Lau: Give pope a chance

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3119814,00.html

As Foreign Ministry fumes over lack of Vatican condemnation of terror in Israel and Holy See fires off harsh words of its own, ex-chief rabbi Yisrael Lau says to wait until smoke clears

<snip>

"Former Israel chief rabbi, and current Tel Aviv chief rabbi, Yisrael Lau hopes that the current diplomatic fallout between the Jewish State and the Holy See will pass,

Lau, known for his ties with the late John Paul II, said, “I hope things will return to normal, because in life diplomats on both sides must abide by the saying ‘Sages, watch your words.’ Ties are still fragile.”

<snip>

"Rabbi Lau asked that the new pope be given “the benefit of the doubt, and not turn him into our enemy, something which is not justified. I would give him a few months in his job.”
The chief rabbi added that if French President Jacque Chirac can turn into a friend of Israel “then surely the pope, who never said against Israel.”

Lau contended that the oversight might have to do with the fact that there was nothing new about terrorist attacks in Israel: “It’s dog bites man, but in London, … it’s man bites dog.”

[drdon326]

15. Vatican: It isn't always possible to condemn anti-Israel terrorism

Largely good relations between the Vatican and Israel in recent years were strained this week by Israeli outrage that Pope Benedict XVI failed to condemn terror against Israelis in recent remarks. On Monday, the Vatican envoy to Israel was summoned to the Foreign Ministry as Jerusalem expressed its outrage over Benedict's remarks that didn't condemn the Netanya bombing.

The Foreign Ministry had complained that Benedict, in a public appearance at his Alpine vacation retreat on Sunday, "deliberately" didn't mention a July 12 suicide bombing in the coastal city of Netanya while the pontiff did refer to recent terror strikes in Egypt, Britain, Turkey and Iraq.

"It's not always possible to immediately follow every attack against Israel with a public statement of condemnation, and for various reasons, among them the fact that the attacks against Israel sometimes were followed by immediate Israeli reactions not always compatible with the rules of international law," a statement from the Vatican press office said Thursday night.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/606391.html

......................................................

:argh:

[DanCa]

16. Didn't Pope John Paul Two (may he rest in peace)

Condemn every act of terrorism? I was just wondering?

[estherc]

17. not a big surprise

Its certainly no surprise that a former member of Hitler youth would find it "impossible" to condemn terrorist attacks against Israel. The lame excuse that the Isreali reaction made it impossible doesn't hold water. Condemn the terrorist attack and the reaction both then.

Benedict also found it "impossible" to resist the Nazi's in his youth, but many Germans didn't.

[drdon326]

19. I swear I didnt know he was a HITLER YOUTH.

WELL, THAT EXPLAINS ALOT !!!

[barb162]

23. His family moved a few times to avoid the Nazis. Finally he was

forced to join the Hitler youth and then ran away from it as soon as he could. I can get the links if you want

[Andromeda]

25. Welcome to DU, estherc...

:hi:

[Gyre]

18. Wow!

That dude's got some 'nads. #1 on Mossad's hit list I'm guessing. Anybody taking odds on a violent death in the next year?

Gyre

[Jim Sagle]

20. Get real.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. He sure does!

Big anti-Semitic 'nads! I am guessing though Mossad has better things to do.

[drdon326]

26. Well, there was a history of trying to assassinate the Pope..

it was JP-II , I believe.

I forget the guys name who tried kill John Paul II.

[Coastie for Truth]

27. Mehmet Ali Agca

Mehmet Ali Ağca (born January 9, 1958) is a Turkish militant who shot Pope John Paul II in Saint Peter's Square on May 13, 1981. Following the shooting, Pope John Paul II asked people to "pray for my brother (Ağca), whom I have sincerely forgiven." In 1983, Pope John Paul II and his would-be assassin Ağca met and spoke privately at the Italian prison where Ağca was being held. According to a United Press article, the Pope had kept in touch with Ağca's family over the years, having met his mother in 1987 and his brother a decade later.

Ağca is currently in prison in Turkey for crimes he committed before going to Italy.

As a youth, Ağca became a petty criminal and a member of street gangs in his home town. He later became a smuggler in the lucrative trade between Turkey and Bulgaria. He then went to Syria where he received two months of training in weaponry and terrorist tactics. He claims this was paid for by the Bulgarian government. After this training he went to work for the far-right Turkish Grey Wolves, who were at the time destabilizing Turkey, which led to a military government. Opinions differ on whether the Grey Wolves were being used by the CIA or the Bulgarian Secret Service to that end. Ağca describes himself as a mercenary of no political orientation who was willing to do anything for enough money. In 1979, under orders from the Grey Wolves, he killed the left-wing newspaper editor Abdi İpekçi in Istanbul. He was caught due to an informant and was sentenced to life in prison. He soon escaped, with the help of the Grey Wolves.

Ağca fled to Bulgaria. He later once stated that in Sofia, he was approached by the Bulgarian Secret Service, who offered him three million German Marks to assassinate the Pope. The Bulgarians were allegedly instructed by the KGB to assassinate the Pope because of his support of Poland's Solidarity movement. However, Ağca later renounced this theory of the events, and has given multiple conflicting statements on the assassination at different times.

<snip><
Originally Ağca claimed to be a member of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, but they denied any ties to him.
<snip.

Mehmet Ali Agca

Profile
Your Guide, Charles Montaldo From Charles Montaldo,
Your Guide to Crime / Punishment.
FREE GIFT with Newsletter! Act Now!

Summary: Mehmet Ali Agca, a Turkish assassin, shot Pope John Paul II on May 13, 1981 in Saint Peter's Square.

# Personal Information: Born - January 9, 1958
# Birthplace - Yesiltepe, Turkey

# General Information: Gender - Male
# Religion - Muslim
# Ethnicity - Middle Eastern
# Occupation - Assassin
http://crime.about.com/od/murder/p/db_agca.htm

[drdon326]

28. I found it...........Mehmet Ali Aðca

At the time he claimed to be a member of the PFLP, but the PFLP denied this.


And the PFLP has never lied.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Is it because I'm an atheist?

..but I don't give a toss what the Vatican says or doesn't say on any isse, because I believe the Catholic Church should keep its nose out of politics...

http://www.seechange.org/

Violet...

[H5N1]

29. Vatican Denounces Some Israeli Retaliation

VATICAN CITY - Responding to Israeli criticism, the
Vaticansaid Thursday it hasn't condemned every strike by Palestinian militants against the Jewish state because
Israel's military response to the attacks has sometimes violated international law.

The statement also denounced Monday's complaint about Benedict as "presumptuous."

"Just as the Israeli government understandably doesn't allow itself to be told by others what it should say, neither can the Holy See accept teachings and directives by some other authority regarding the leaning and content of its own statements," the Vatican press office said.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050728/ap_on_re_mi_ea/vatican_israel

This is progress!

[Jim Sagle]

30. Disappointing double standard from the Vatican.

[Andromeda]

31. Isn't strapping a bomb around your waist....

walking into an ice-cream parlor and detonating yourself a violation of international law?

I don't take any statement from a former member of the Nazi youth seriously.

[dArKeR]

32. "The untenability of the groundless accusations directed against Pope

"The untenability of the groundless accusations directed against Pope Benedict XVI for not having mentioned - in comments following the Angelus prayer on July 24 - the July 12 terrorist attack in Netanya, Israel, cannot but be clear to the people who made them. Perhaps it is also for this reason that an attempt has been made to uphold the accusations by shifting attention to supposed silences of John Paul II on attacks against Israel in past years, even inventing repeated Israeli government petitons to the Holy See on the subject, and requesting that with the new pontificate the Holy See change its attitude.

"On this matter, it should be noted that:

"John Paul II's declarations condemning all forms of terrorism, and condemning single acts of terrorism committed against Israel, were numerous and public.

http://212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/b3_en.htm

[Behind the Aegis]

33. John Paul is no longer Pope...he has passed on.

This announcement is a DOUBLE STANDARD by the Vatican, now run by a NEW pope.

[bemildred]

34. I'm fairly sure the Vatican knows he's dead.

They are responding to a specific complaint, quoted mentioned there, about JPII's lack of forthrightness in condemning terrorism.

There is also a complaint about a similar issue WRT the new Pope, and they dismiss that too.

I'm not commenting on the merits of the case, just trying to represent the argument being made accurately.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. And I am commenting on the NEW pope.

JPII is dead. The issue here is the NEW pope and his cop out for not mentioning the victims of a terrorist attack in Israel. Can you imagine if JPII, following 9-11, had not condemned the attacks, because "the US frequently responds with violations of international law?!" Also, if the Holy See doesn't want to be told what to do, then they should shut up about the actions of other nations.

[bemildred]

36. So you are not really responding to the quote in post #3?

I thought you were because you appended to that post. But it looks like you just want to dismiss what they said, rather than refute it.

I was just trying to help because it looked like you might not have understood what was said in the quote.

I mean, I don't have a problem with you saying that, but it's hard to understand when the context is not clear.