Israeli Soldier kills four civilians on Gaza bus

[Charlie Brown]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/04/bus.shooting/index.html

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An Israeli soldier opened fire inside a bus in Israel's northern Galilee region Thursday, killing four Israeli Arabs and seriously wounding five others before he was killed, according to Israeli police.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon issued a statement condemning the attack, calling it "the terrible act of a bloodthirsty terrorist."

[Scurrilous]

1. IDF, police fear riots in wake of Shfaram shooting

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/608864.html

<snip>

"A Jewish Israeli man in an Israel Defense Forces uniform opened fire on bus passengers in a Druze neighborhood of the Israeli Arab town of Shfaram Thursday afternoon. Four people were killed and 12 wounded, two of them moderately. The gunman was killed by a mob that boarded the bus after the shooting.

The police sent reinforcements to the north of the country, fearing possible riots in Arab towns. Some of the officers were flown in from the Jerusalem and West Bank districts via IDF helicopters to reach the region as quickly as possible. Police also began mobilizing patrol vehicles, police helicopters and mounted police in order to disperse any violent demonstrations."

<snip>

"Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas condemned the attack, with Sharon calling it "a sinful act by a bloodthirsty terrorist."

The attacker - Tzuberi, 19 - was a newly religious man, an IDF deserter from Rishon Letzion who recently moved to the West Bank settlement of Tapuah. He was an activist in the outlawed extreme-right Kach movement and went AWOL a month ago to protest the disengagement plan."

[BoneDaddy]

2. hmm

So when they bulldoze a neighborhood, fire tanks into civilian homes that is ok, but when one of their wacko's uses a gun it is "terrorism"?

Seems strange to me.

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. Of course it's not okay

but there is a big difference between state sanctioned actions and some poor soul going berserk.

[tucoramirez2005]

92. He killed two CHRISTIANS

Did they have it coming? They should riot.

[HootieMcBoob]

4. Why was this moved from late breaking news?

Yes it involves Isaeli/Palestinian affairs but it's also late breaking news.

[Scurrilous]

5. LBN Rules:

"Discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues is not permitted in the Latest Breaking News forum, and instead must be posted in the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs forum. If, however, the news item is primarily about U.S. policy in Israeli/Palestinian affairs, you may post it in the Latest Breaking News forum."

[HootieMcBoob]

6. just curious what the reasoning is behind that

I only ask because I was just about to post it myself when I noticed it had been posted already but moved.

Is this the only subject that is not permitted in LBN?

[Scurrilous]

7. "Is this the only subject that is not permitted in LBN?"

According to the rules, nothing frivolous, nothing off-topic, and nothing I/P.

I'm not sure about the reasoning for this. The no I/P in LBN thing was already in place back when I registered. Maybe someone who's been here longer can explain.

[Guy_Montag]

76. I think because there's so much from I/P

& also I/P discussions get rather heated.

[hack89]

82. 9/11 conspiracy stuff disappears from LBN very quickly too n/t

[HootieMcBoob]

8. Israeli lynched after bus killing

A teenaged Israeli gunman has been lynched after killing four people on a bus in an Israeli Arab town.

The man, said to be wearing an army uniform and a Jewish skull cap, opened fire on pasengers as the bus was passing through Shfaram near Haifa.

Several people were injured, some seriously. A furious mob killed the gunman as police were leading him away.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon called the incident a reprehensible act by a "bloodthirsty terrorist".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4746591.stm

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DistressedAmerican]

15. Yeah, Angry Mob Justice Is ALWYAYS A Good Solution! WTF?

Did you even think before posthing that comment. Lawlessness is never a better solution.

Vigilante justice should not be glorified.

You are just plain wrong.

[geek tragedy]

16. He was an armed gunman. You expect his targets to respond with

non-violence?

[Behind the Aegis]

18. He was no longer armed.

"A furious mob killed the gunman as police were leading him away."

[geek tragedy]

21. I'll shed no tears. If someone opened up fire on a NYC subway with me in

it, I can't say I wouldn't participate in a little rough justice myself.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Not calling for tears.

But, once in police custody, then it was over, until the justice system takes over. This was vigilantism, nothing more and just as vile as the murder of four innocent bus riders.

[geek tragedy]

23. Except the four bus riders weren't terrorists. eom

[Behind the Aegis]

31. No they weren't.

His actions were inexcusable!

[geek tragedy]

32. His actions were MORE inexcusable.

His victims didn't deserve to die. He did.

[Behind the Aegis]

36. His action was more inexcusable.

And, no one deserved to die. The terrorist's death was not 'justice,' but 'revenge.' The four innocents murdered deserved justice; they did not get it. Murder for reasons of hate OR revenge just continue the cycle.

[K-W]

24. How is this just as vile?

No law or moral code I have ever heard of would equate these two acts.

Both acts were vile, but I dont see why you are equating the two very different crimes.

[Behind the Aegis]

34. Read it again.

I didn't equate the two acts. One was an act of terrorism, one was an act of vigilantism. I was commenting on the murder by the mob as being just as vile as the murders by the terrorist!

[geek tragedy]

37. But are they equally detestable acts?

The consequence of the two actions were not equally unjust.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Does it matter?

They are both destable. The mob's reaction is better understood as a "heat of the moment" reaction. The consequences of the two actions are not equally as unjust, but tragic, nonetheless.

[geek tragedy]

43. My moral theory/reasoning tends towards utilitarianism, so yeah the

nature of the outcomes matters greatly when assessing the nature of the acts.

[Behind the Aegis]

51. I understand.

To me, any murder is tragic. That said, the reaction by the mob is not unexpected, nor was the outcome.

[K-W]

64. You just equated them again, after saying you didnt equate them.

"I was commenting on the murder by the mob as being just as vile as the murders by the terrorist!"

I repeat. I know of no moral or ethical code that would equate these two acts as you have. What is your justification for equating them?

[Behind the Aegis]

66. Whatever...

You must have a different dictionary. I did NOT equate the terrorist act and the vigilant act!

Murder is vile, no matter the number or guilt.

[K-W]

67. I quoted you equating them how can you deny it?

"I was commenting on the murder by the mob as being just as vile as the murders by the terrorist!"

That is what you said. You didnt say 'both were vile' you said one was "just as vile" as the other. You equated them.

[Behind the Aegis]

68. THE MURDERS!

NOT THE ACTS!

I EQUATED THE MURDERS AS BEING VILE!

[K-W]

69. What did you think i meant by act?

I thought in the context of this thread I was pretty obviously referring to the murders.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

28. If someone wearing a Klan robe strolled into Harlem and shot up a bus,

I wouldn't expect him to survive the incident.

Sorry, but terrorists who die violently die justly.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rodeodance]

10. "bloodthirsty terrorist".--what about the lynch mob?

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon called the incident a reprehensible act by a "bloodthirsty terrorist".

[HootieMcBoob]

12. I don't think you can say anything good about either

and I doubt that Sharon had any praise for the mob either.

[BlueEyedSon]

11. So was he an israeli? a soldier? a Palestinian?

[HootieMcBoob]

13. an AWOL Israeli soldier is my understanding n/t

[geek tragedy]

19. Defecter. Kahanist nutbag. eom

[lumpy]

20. Apparently an Israeli religious fundamenalist.

Read the GD article.

[lvx35]

14. I wish the Israeli authority had tried him, rather than an angry mob.

Every chance they get to show that they deal with Jewish and Arab extremists equally helps show that they are ready to create a just and lasting peace.

[theHandpuppet]

17. Agreed!

You've summed it up well.

[rodeodance]

26. wolfe Blitzer just had a clip about it--he seemed surprized by Sharon's

labeling of the Jewish man who did the shoting. More to come on his show.

[Kalish]

30. what labelling? nt

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Sharon correctly identified the shooter as a terrorist. n/t

[rodeodance]

27. mob scenes such as these are to be condemned.

[Kalish]

29. angry mobs and justice

very rarely go hand in hand.

some times they do, most of the time they don't.

at the very least they should be discouraged and condemned.

[High Plains]

65. Yeah, and they could use some help with that...

[Darranar]

77. An unjust response to a despicable act. n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

40. Israeli Gunman kills 4 on Israeli bus

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/04/bus.shooting/index.html

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An Israeli soldier opened fire inside a bus in Israel's northern Galilee region Thursday, killing four Israeli Arabs and seriously wounding five others before he was killed, according to Israeli police.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon issued a statement condemning the attack, calling it "the terrible act of a bloodthirsty terrorist."
--snip--


Now, I have always been a huge critic of Ariel Sharon, but I have to tip my hat to him for calling this guy exactly what he is - a terrorist. It's about damn time.

[Beaver Tail]

41. I am not an Ariel Sharon fan either

But he did call "a spade a spade". Good call Ariel.

[Caleb]

42. A bloodthirsty terrorist

who got what he deserved when they lynched him after, IMO.

[laststeamtrain]

44. Israeli lynched after bus killing--BBC

An Israeli soldier who shot dead four people on a bus in an Israeli Arab town has been lynched by a crowd.

The 19-year-old, who is believed to have deserted in protest against the Gaza pullout this month, opened fire as the bus passed through Shfaram.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4746591.stm

[htuttle]

45. I believe he got stoned, not lynched

[KeepItReal]

49. " To execute without due process of law, especially to hang, as by a mob."

Sounds weird to me too, but Dictionary.com says the word works in this context.

[sir_captain]

46. This should be in I/P

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

47. he shot and killed

5 or six Arab Israelis on the bus, including the driver. NPR was calling him "an Israeli Jewish terrorist".

[htuttle]

48. Sharon called him a terrorist, too

Which surprised me, frankly.

[The Night Owl]

50. I bet Bush will condemn only the Palestinians.

[Igel]

79. Why?

He killed innocent civilians presumably to make a political point and alter government/social policies or behavior.

I know it's become commonplace with all the Muslim terrorist acts to somehow think race is usually in the definition, but the Italian Red Brigades, German Baader-Meinhoff gang, and Irish IRA were all also terrorist.

[Up2Late]

52. Israeli lynched after bus killing (BBC News)

(Do they define "lynched" differently in England than they do here? Because in the article it says "...The gunman was beaten to death by the crowd as police were attempting to detain him, and his body was left on the floor of the bus...,"???)

Thursday, 4 August 2005, 21:13 GMT 22:13 UK

Israeli lynched after bus killing

An (AWOL) Israeli soldier who shot dead four people on a bus in an Israeli Arab town has been lynched by a crowd.

The 19-year-old, who is believed to have deserted in protest against the Gaza pullout this month, opened fire as the bus passed through Shfaram. All the dead are said to be from the town. Several people were injured, some seriously.

Israel's chief of police has dispatched an extra 2,000 officers and urged all Israelis to remain calm. Moshe Karadi asked people to await an official inquiry into the incident.

The gunman was beaten to death by the crowd as police were attempting to detain him, and his body was left on the floor of the bus, Israeli radio reports. Israel is preparing to pull its settlers out of the occupied Gaza Strip and they have been fears of attacks by Jewish settlers opposed to the pullout.

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4746591.stm>
(more at link above)

[Halliburton]

53. no

this classifies as a lynching in American terms. lynching is a kiling perpetrated by people who take the law into their own hands.

[Up2Late]

58. Oh, O.K. I alway thought it had to be rope/hanging to be called that.

Even though I live in Georgia, I know little about such things, I was born in Michigan and grew up 3 miles from the Southern boarder, in Indiana.

[whistle]

54. The Israeli fascist government is no making its youngest totally...

...insane. As for the lynching of a guilty Israeli, the retaliation will be swift and brutal by the Israeli military/police, I'm sure.

[short bus president]

55. doesn't sound like a lynching to me...

sounds like bystanders rendered harmless a terrorist in the midst of his terrorizing. Those bus passengers would be regarded as heroes if they were Americans on an airliner over PA almost 3 years ago...

[mike_c]

57. exactly....

[Behind the Aegis]

60. They rendered him dead.

They committed murder, as well.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

62. They should have let him reload?

He was going for another clip when they attacked him...

[Behind the Aegis]

63. I didn't say or suggest that, now did I?

Considering the number of them, he could have been contained. Some call what they did justice, I call revenge.

[daleo]

56. You usually think of a hanging

I suppose this could qualify as well. A hanging (like the old westerns) seems somewhat more deliberate, though.

To his credit, Sharon called the AWOL soldier a terrorist (he killed Arabs to protest the Israeli pullout from Gaza). It reminds one of the shootings in the mosque some years back.

[bluestateguy]

59. He got what he deserved

I don't condone what the people did....but I don't condemn it either.

He was every bit the terrorist as the suicide bombers.

[Kagemusha]

61. I'm sure they knew what'd happen if he was arrested alive.

Which would be as close to nothing as possible...

But now that Jewish blood is on their hands, Israel will face tremendous pressure to retaliate. No matter who started it.

Ugly.

[Caleb]

70. Israel won't retaliate

Where do you even come up with that?

Every single MK, including Sharon, has denounced this as the disgusting act of terrorism that it is.

[pelsar]

71. the "arabs"...

this is for the few inane remarks (the ones that one expects!) about "israel retailiating"...the "arabs" in that part of the village are DRUZE...they serve in the IDF. In fact the first few who reached the bus and pinned down the terrorist, took away his weapon were ex IDF Border Police..guys who live in that village.....they had their hand guns drawn when entering the bus.

so lets get this clear...the guy shot and killed relatives of people who have and are presently serving in the IDF, citizens of israel

retaliate against whom?....their own?

[Violet_Crumble]

72. Arabs, not "arabs"...

While their official identity on Israeli identity cards was changed from Arab to Druze in the late 50's, the Druze are Arabs. They're a distinct group because of their religion, and like other minority groups tend to struggle over their sense of identity. So while they're a distinct minority group, they're part of a larger minority of Arabs within Israel...

Violet....

[pelsar]

73. druze...

dont tell them that....the druze i 've met...dont identifiy with the arabs...(let alone the palestenians)

You making the mistake that gidon levy also does.....telling the local population "who they are"......very illiberal:

It is the druze who decide what their identity is and to whom they are linked in terms of their history/culture/experience.....nobody else, especially no "white person" has that right


...and they do not see themselves as part of the arab experience

[Violet_Crumble]

75. Ethnicity vs self-identification

Yr talking about what you claim (as a "white person") the self-identity of the Druze is. I don't think I was wrong in pointing out that there is internal struggle amongst the Druze community in Israel (and the Golan Heights) over their sense of identity, and that it's a pretty complex struggle. What I was talking about was their ethnicity, which is Arab. They were Arab 100 years ago, so what happened that caused them not to be Arab anymore? Was it the mere act of a govt changing their category on identity cards from Arab to Druze?

When it comes to "white people" and Druze identity, someone should have perhaps told the Israeli govt that before it did its 'divide and conquer' tactic with the Arab minorities in Israel.

Reshaping Druze Particularism in Israel

The Construction of Druze Ethnicity: Druze in Israel Between State Policy and Palestinian Arab Nationalism

Violet....

[eyl]

74. the Druze

generally don't see themselves as Arabs (violently so, sometimes).

However, the dead were, AFAIK, Christian Arabs, not Druze (the bus was a route to the Christian neighborhood of the town).

[pelsar]

78. druze....

my info was wrong about the killed.....(early news reports)

but as far as the druze:
"What I was talking about was their ethnicity, which is Arab. They were Arab 100 years ago, so what happened that caused them not to be Arab anymore?"

samething that happened to the "palestenains'...who didnt have that identity 100 years ago....they decided to make/modify their identity.....its up to the social group to decide who and what they are.....and as we all know, it doesnt have to be completly 'truthful".

the point is that whether or not the druze are "arab"is not really relevant...its like claiming arabs cant be anti semetic because they are semetic......

The druze do not identify as arabs, hence when they are put collectivly within the "arab generalization it is, to a certain point "raping their identity". They dont agree to it, hence us, the outsiders have no right to "place that identity on them" and call them as such.

it has nothing to do with what is or is not written on their ID card, that doesnt make their identity, their culture and secret religion does...something for us to respect.

[Tom Joad]

80. Will Israeli Army destroy the family home of the terrorist?

When a Palestinian uses force against civilians (or the military), not only is he punished, but also his family, and the village he came from. so will the Israeli military destroy the family home of this Jewish terrorist? Of course that is against international law, and besides that, against all common sense. However, it should work both ways. Or perhaps the practice should be abandoned entirely??? (that would be my choice)

In regards to the fact that the terrorist was killed on the scene, has any Israeli ever done serious prison time for killing a Palestinian, no matter the circumstances?

Whole Palestinian villages have been abandoned due to constant Jewish settler attacks, and no one is even arrested, with very rare exceptions.

I have no doubt that the settlement where this sick, deranged man came from will erect a monument in his honor, just like the one that currently exists for B. Goldstein.

[pelsar]

81. wrong question...

your attempting to compare the acts of an israeli citizen to the acts of an enemy society....

when an israeli guns down israeli citizens its a criminal act (reguardless of his motive)..when a palestenain kills israeli civilians its a war crime

[Tom Joad]

83. This is not a war crime?

Is it any less a crime? The Israeli government would seek collective punishment in an Israeli-Arab town if the the perp were a Israeli/Palestinian that killed a Jewish Israeli.

And if your theory is true, then every act of violence by Jewish Settlers against Palestinians in the West Bank is a war crime, and yet these go unpunished. Whole Palestinian villages have been abandoned due to constant Settler violence. If settlers are arrested at all they are released in a few days.

My main point is to say no to collective punishment.

[donkeydude]

84. You mean a policy

they discontinued?

[Violet_Crumble]

85. When did they discontinue that policy?

n/t

[eyl]

91. Here

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1108610311104

[eyl]

86. Wrong

1) The policy is to destroy the terrorist's house. If he lived in, say, nablus, his parents' house in Qalqilyah isn't in danger.

2) At this point, it's unclear where exactly he lived in the first place.

3) The logic behind destroying the house doesn't apply here.

4) As pelsar pointed out, states generally treat their own citizens and enemy citizens differently.

5) As he also pointed out, the practise has been discontinued (I can't find the article, but there's a thread around here somewhere).

6) As for your question on prison time; off the top of my head, the Bat Ayin Conspiracy members got sentences of a decade+, and they didn't even succeed in killing anyone; the guy who shot seven Arab workers a decade or so ago got multiple life sentences; there have been others. The thing is, you only hear about the ones who don't get long sentences.

7) I really doubt he'll have a monument; at the moment, no municipality is even willing to bury him.

8) "the Israeli government would seek collective punishment in an Israeli-Arab town if the the perp were a Israeli/Palestinian that killed a Jewish Israeli."

Do you care to supply any proof for that? When Muhammed Shaker Habashi detonated himself at the Nahariya train station, what colelctive punishment was pursued in Abu Snan? What collective punishment was pursued in the case of Israeli Arabs who assisted Palestinian sucide bombers?

[Tom Joad]

87. Logic?

You are right that the policy has been officially discontinued.

My point is there never was any logic behind the policy. It is as logical as destroying a house that a drug dealer lived in, people who call themselves liberals would howl at such an injustice, and rightly so. In fact, the way the Israelis did it, by blowing up a house, there usually were a few other houses damaged, if not destroyed. What kind of legal policy was that? It was insanity that kept going for years. Even the army finally said it did nothing but make matters worse. They should have listened to us long ago.

Most home demolitions were for other reasons. No permit granted by the Israeli government, or the Israeli government says it needs the land, so Palestinian homes are demolished. This happens very often. By an occupying army. It should be called for what it is, state terrorism.

Baruch Goldstein, who killed many more, has a monument, you don't think Eden will get his own? And when Goldstein did his mayhem, afterwords the Palestinians in Hebron were forced into curfew, so they get collective punishment for even the misdeeds of an Israeli Jewish citizen. Monument or not, he will be treated as a hero by those who put up the Hebrew signs in Jerusalem "Death to the Arabs"

" As pelsar pointed out, states generally treat their own citizens and enemy citizens differently."

The tragedy behind that is that Israel is officially a State for Jewish people, and not for all that live there. The Palestinians, the indigenous people, are often seen as "enemy citizens". (sometimes just as second class, but certainly not as equals)

You don't think this might lead to violence?

[IndianaGreen]

88. A deserter is not a soldier!

Let's make something clear, a deserter is not a soldier! There is a significant difference between being AWOL and being a deserter. In the US military, a person is AWOL if he/she is gone from their official duty station without official license (which is what the acronym AWOL means). A deserter is someone that leaves with the intention of permanently never coming back. The news accounts clearly show that the deserted left his IDF unit because he was upset with Sharon and his Gaza withdrawal plans. The shooter had no intentions of returning to duty. The shooter was a deserter from IDF. The shooter cannot accurately be described as a soldier by any definition of the word, not in the US army and not in IDF.

[eyl]

89. While a deserter

may not be a soldier in the "moral" sense, he is still legally a soldier until he is discharger.

Also, in the IDF, the difference between someone who's AWOL (nifkad) and a deserter (ariq) is that the latter is absent for more than two weeks. Whether he eventually intends to come back or not is not something military regs and law address (until the sentancing phase, at least)

[IndianaGreen]

90. The CNN headline is misleading to the American reader

Both the headline and the opening sentence refer to "an Israeli soldier" as being the shooter. It would have been more accurate to have said an Israeli army deserter.