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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 10:49 PM
Original message
Uncertainty over site and kind of burial for Jewish terrorist
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/608979.html

<snip>

"The Jewish soldier from the Israel Defense Forces who went AWOL before shooting dead four Israeli Arabs in Shfaram on Thursday will not be buried in accordance with the practices of military funerals, Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said Friday."

<snip>

"Shortly after Mofaz announced his decision, the mayor of Rishon Letzion, Natan-Zada's hometown, and the mayor of the West Bank settlement of Tapuah, to where he had recently moved, both refused to hold his burial in their municipalities.

Mofaz explained that he had denied Natan-Zada a military burial because he was "unworthy of being buried next to the fallen soldiers of Israel's wars."

Natan-Zada's family said they intended to petition the High Court as early as Sunday in order to reverse Mofaz's decision."


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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Mofaz's decision is a good one...
Mofaz explained that he had denied Natan-Zada a military burial because he was "unworthy of being buried next to the fallen soldiers of Israel's wars."

I'd be thinking he'd also be unworthy of having soldiers as pallbearers. I wonder why it's so important to his family that he has a military funeral? The bottom line is it doesn't matter where or how he's buried, his grave will become a shrine for extremist loonytunes...

Violet...
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donkeydude Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Probably
because his family loves/loved him.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Well, duh...
It's a no-brainer that his family would love him despite what he did. But why is it so important to them that he have a military funeral rather than a non-military one? Does a non-military funeral mean they don't love him or something?

Violet...
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. At least as of Thursday
Edited on Sat Aug-06-05 03:20 AM by eyl
his family didn't admit what he did, claiming he may have been acting in self-defense. I suppose a military funeral would vindicate him, in their eyes, at least.

Besides, it would solve the problem of where to bury him; at this time, neither Rishon Le'Tzion nor the Tapuah municipalities are willing to bury him.

(I suppose the IDF could put him in the terrorists' graveyard, but I doubt he'd like the company)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. The vindication thing makes some sense...
I can't even begin to imagine how difficult it is for families of people who carry out acts like this to come to terms with what was done by their relative...

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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
6. Deal reached on killer’s burial
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3123417,00.html

Eden Natan Zada, who killed four Israelis in Shfaram on Thursday, to be laid to rest in a civilian ceremony in Rishon Lezion, south of Tel Aviv. Decision reached following late-night contacts; residents plan to petition High Court

<snip>

"Jewish terrorist Eden Natan Zada, who killed four Israelis aboard a bus Thursday, is scheduled to be laid to rest in the town of Rishon Lezion, south of Tel Aviv, Sunday afternoon.
The decision was reached following late-night discussions between Defense Ministry representatives and religious officials. The exact time of the funeral has not yet been announced.

During earlier meetings, the killer’s family was convinced to back off the demand that Natan Zada be buried in a military ceremony. Meanwhile, Rishon Lezion Mayor Meir Nitzan also reversed his earlier stance against burying the terrorist in his town, after officials at the Prime Minister’s Office told him “he’s not the one who runs the Chevra Kadisha burial society.”

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz reiterated Sunday morning that he would not allow the soldier to be buried in a military cemetery, as he does not deserve to be buried there.

However, the funeral affair is apparently not over yet. Ynet has learned that the City of Rishon Lezion and residents living near the cemetery, in the town’s east, object to the burial and are planning to petition the High Court of Justice against it."






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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
7. Shfaram killer's funeral ends quietly in Rishon cemetery
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/608979.html

<snip>

"The funeral of the soldier who killed four Israeli Arabs on a bus in Shfaram last week ended quietly on Sunday afternoon in the civilian section of the Rishon Letzion cemetery.

Natan-Zada's mother eulogized her son and said that "for me you are a hero." She wished that the Israel Defense Forces and the security services "go to hell."
Natan-Zada's friends responded by saying "Amen." One far-right activist was arrested during the funeral on suspicion of incitement.

Police forces arrived at the cemetery to prevent any possible disturbances during the funeral. Dozens of far-right activists also attended the funeral.

The burial took place hours after the Prime Minister's Office made a decision on the matter, ending days of bitter feuding over the burial."
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. Too bad Palestinians don't also use this treatment for their
terrorists. Perhaps if terrorists from both sides were not honored in their deaths and their funerals, there would be fewer of them.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Memory hole alert!
An even greater example of Jewish fundamentalism's influence upon the secular part of the Israeli establishment can be detected in the official arrangement of Goldstein's elaborate funeral at a time that the deliberate character of the massacre could not be denied. The establishment was affected by the fact, widely reported in the Hebrew press but given little place in the foreign press, that within two days of the massacre the walls of religious neighborhoods of west Jerusalem (and to a lesser extent of many other religious neighborhoods) were covered by posters extolling Goldstein's virtues and complaining that he did not manage to kill more Arabs. Children of religious settlers who came to Jerusalem to demonstrate sported buttons for months after the massacre that were inscribed: "Dr. Goldstein cured Israel's ills." Numerous concerts of Jewish religious music and other events often developed into demonstrations of tribute to Goldstein. The Hebrew press reported these incidents of public tribute in copious detail. No major politician protested against such celebrations.

President Weizman expressed more extravagantly than others his sorrow for the massacre. Weizman, as reported by Uzi Benziman in his March 4, 1994 Haaretz article, was also engaged in lengthy and amiable negotiations with Goldstein's family and Kach comrades concerning a suitably honorable funeral for the murderer. Kiryat Arba settlers, many of whom had already declared themselves in favor of the mass murder in radio and television interviews and had lauded Goldstein as a martyr and holy man, demanded that General Yatom, the commander responsible for the Hebron area, allow the funeral cortege to parade through the city of Hebron, in order to be viewed by the Arabs even though a curfew existed. Yatom did not object outright to the demand but opposed it as something that could cause disorder. Tzvi Katzover, the mayor of Kiryat Arba and one of the most extreme leaders of the religious settlers, telephoned Weizman and threatened that the settlers would make a pogrom of Arabs if their demands were not met. Weizman responded by telephoning the chief of staff and asking why the army opposed the demand of the settlers. According to Benziman, Chief of Staff Barak answered: "The army was afraid that Arabs would desecrate Goldstein's tomb and carry away his corpse." In further negotiations involving Barak, Yatom, Rabin, Kach leaders and Kiryat Arba settlers, Weizman assumed the consistent position, as stated by Benziman, that "the army should pay respect to the desires and sensibilities of the settlers and of the Goldstein family." Ultimately, the negotiated decision was that a massively attended funeral cortege would take place in Jerusalem and that the police would close some of the busiest streets to the traffic in Goldstein's honor. Afterwards, the murderer would be buried in Kiryat Arba along the continuation of Kahane Avenue. According to Benziman, Kach leaders at first rejected this compromise. General Yatom had to approach the Kach leaders in person and beg them abjectly for their agreement, which he finally secured. Yatom also had to obtain consent from the notorious Kiryat Arba rabbi, Dov Lior. As reported in the March 4, 1994, issue of Yerushalaim Lior declared: "Since Goldstein did what he did in God's own name, he is to be regarded as a righteous man." Benziman explained the conduct of Weizman and his entourage: " After the fact the officials of the presidential mansion justify those goings on by the need to becalm the settlers' mood." After the funeral the army provided a guard of honor for Goldstein's tomb. The tomb became a pilgrimage site, not only for the religious settlers but also for delegations of pious Jews from all Israeli cities.

The details of Goldstein's funeral as arranged through the office of President Weizman are significant. The facts below were taken mostly from the Ilana Baum and Tzvi Singer report, published in Yediot Ahronot on February, 28 1994. The funeral's first installment took place in Jerusalem. Among the estimated thousand mourners only a few were settlers from Kiryat Arba. Baum and Singer noted: "Without having met Goldstein personally, other mourners most of whom were Jerusalemites, were enthusiastic admirers of his deed. Many more were Yeshiva students. A large group represented the Chabad Hassidic movement, another group Satmar Hassids." Other Hassidic movements were also well represented. (Not mentioned in the English-language press, Goldstein, a follower of Kahane, was also a follower of the Lubovitcher rabbi.) Baum and Singer continued:

People awaiting the arrival of the corpse could be heard repeating: "What a hero! A righteous person! He did it on behalf of all of us." As usual in such encounters between religious Jews, all the participants tuned into a single, collective personality, united by their burning hatred of the Israeli media, the wicked Israeli government and, above all else, of anyone who dared to speak against the murder.

Before the start of the procession well-known rabbis eulogized Goldstein and commended the murder. Rabbi Israel Ariel, for example, said: "The holy martyr, Baruch Goldstein, is from now on our intercessor in heaven. Goldstein did not act as an individual; he heard the cry of the land of Israel, which is being stolen from us day after day by the Muslims. He acted to relieve that cry of the land!" Toward the end of his eulogy Rabbi Ariel added: "The Jews will inherit the land not by any peace agreement but only by shedding blood." Ben-Shoshan Yeshu'a, a Jewish underground member, sentenced to life imprisonment for murder and amnestied after a few years spent under luxurious hotel conditions, lauded Goldstein and praised his action as an example for other Jews to follow.

source
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. more important memory hole alert
You had to go back 11 years for that (!?) but you could have found many Palestinian funerals with hundreds of people carrying corpses of honored "heroes"(aka suicide bombers) down the streets just in the last few years. Your example shows the rarity of the hero-terrorist worship happening in Israel.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. That's why it called a "memory hole"...
it didn't just happen yesterday. You place no time frame or reference on your statements. Miss Cleo, I'm not.

However, this whole time frame thingie is very interesting. For the purposes of this debate, going back 11 years is excessive"!?" On the other hand, for other debates, going back 2000 years is almost reflex. I find that both revealing and fascinating.

Since 11 years is "too long ago" for your standards in this sub-debate (which is about the honoring of terrorists), how about this:

Israel honors Egyptian spies 50 years after fiasco Wed., March 30, 2005
By Reuters
After half a century of reticence and recrimination, Israel on Wednesday honored nine Egyptian Jews recruited as agents-provocateur in what became one of the worst intelligence bungles in the country’s history. Israel was at war with Egypt when it hatched a plan in 1954 to ruin its rapprochement with the United States and Britain by firebombing sites frequented by foreigners in Cairo and Alexandria.

But Israeli hoped the attacks, which caused no casualties, would be blamed on local insurgents collapsed when the young Zionist bombers were caught and confessed at public trials. Two were hanged. The rest served jail terms and emigrated to Israel.

Embarrassed before the West, the fledgling Jewish state long denied involvement. It kept mum even after its 1979 peace deal with Egypt, fearing memories of the debacle could sour ties.

I believe this "honoring" is within your 11 year statute of limitations.

I don't mean to jump all over you, but this is my usual reaction to anyone trying to say, "look how horrible they are, we don't act like that..." This matter is somewhat like pregnancy. You can't be a little or very pregnant, either you is or you ain't.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. here's dates which proves my point
"The second intifada
On October 7, 2000, a Palestinian mob demolished Joseph’s Tomb, a Jewish holy site near the West Bank city of Nablus, then on Oct. 12th , two Israeli reservists who had mistakenly wandered into the Palestnian city of Ramallah were brutally lynched. The violence continued to flare and included a renewal of suicide attacks in Israel, killing hundreds of innocent civilians. The terrorists infiltrated Israeli cities and towns and carried out attacks - including horrendous suicide bombings - on buses, in restaurants, shopping malls, and even in private homes. Between September 2000 and 2003, more than 900 innocent men, women and children were murdered in Israel in attacks carried out by Palestinian terrorists. Thousands of Israelis have been injured, many of the victims maimed for life."

There's been a truce now for a few months to a year on this last intifada. Then of course there was the first intifada which was between 87-93 or thereabouts.

Who is Miss Cleo

When you look at something that had hundreds of incidents stopping a year ago, 2 examples (from 11 years and 3/30/05)pale in comparison.

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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. So you are a "little" pregnant...
which I guess is not the same as full blown preggers? Not buying.

Either you is or you ain't. And in this case, you is.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. the analogy is inapplicable
You presented next to no examples (2?) and we have all seen footage many, many times of Palestinians carrying the "honored" corpses of suicide bombers. It's SOP with the Palestinians.

But the main point I was making, that if the Palestinian leaders stopped honoring the terrorists and started speaking against their terrorist acts, maybe, just maybe, that kind of thinking could be lessened in their society. Don't you think what the Israeli government did was the right thing with the burial of this soldier and that it should also apply with Palestinian government?
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DixieDem Donating Member (239 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. LOL! You just won this argument NYer!

Good call!!!
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tucoramirez2005 Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. He killed two Christians in his rampage
don't oversimplify this into Jews versus Palestinians.
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DixieDem Donating Member (239 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Really???

I wondered why the MSM was only reporting "four Israeli Arabs" without any religion ties. If they were Muslim, they'd bring that up right away. Hmmm... this could get VERY interesting on the freeper boards.
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tucoramirez2005 Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. 2 Christians (Maronites, I believe)
And you're right; they are keeping that quiet.
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. If you want to avoid oversimplifying
you're choosing the wrong two victims. If you consider Israeli Arabs as Palestinians, then that includes the Christians as well as the Muslims. OTOH, the other two victims were Druze.
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tucoramirez2005 Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. They are all Palestinians
but somehow this is seen as:

Palestinians (Muslims) do it to Jews, now a Jew did it to "Arabs" (without any further description, to leave the impression that was Muslim victims), and it goes on and on.
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Christian Palestinians
Edited on Tue Aug-09-05 07:02 AM by eyl
have also been involved in attacks against Israelis, though to far lesser extent than Muslims (and never in suicide bombings, AFAIK); Christian Palestinians have been killed by Israelis; by other Palestinians; Druze have killed and been killed, so have Europeans and Americans. It's a big war; there's room enough for everybody.

I think you're getting overly worked up about this; remember that ultimately, this is an ethnic conflict, not a religous one, though religion certainly plays its part (and more).
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