Israel urged not to turn Gaza into a prison

[Violet_Crumble]

Israel says it will continue to control Palestinian trade and travel from the Gaza Strip even after it removes its troops and settlers from the occupied territory, a process due to begin this weekend.

Palestinians say that Israel's tight restrictions on people and goods entering the fenced-off enclave will turn Gaza into a de facto prison for 1.3 million people, stifle trade and outside investment and create severe poverty.

Lengthy security checks which can last days mean that Palestinian produce can rot before it is brought to market, while exporters of vegetables, fruit and flowers become dependent on Israeli middle men who can dictate low prices.

The relatively free movement of Israeli goods and produce, on the other hand, gives Israeli goods a price advantage over Palestinian competitors in the occupied territories.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/israel-urged-not-to-turn-gaza-into-a-prison/2005/08/09/1123353318238.html

[caitlyn]

1. None of the restrictions would be necessary...

...if the Palestinians ended their terrorism campaign. That was supposed to be the first step along the Roadmap, remember?

Disengagement is a positive step we should support, "Unilateral separation", as Ehud Barak called it, will, if completed, stop most of the bloodshed and allow time for cooler heads to prevail and allow for a new peace process to start. -C

[Jim Sagle]

2. Excellent summary.

[Caleb]

3. Agreed

:thumbsup:

[TomClash]

4. Before the intifada

did the occupation end? Were the settlements dismantled?

There's always a "new peace process." And the occupation always continues. The reason for Israeli "disengagement" is not to start a new peace process but to consolidate, legitimize and expand the remaining settlements and to avoid an Eretz Israel with an Arab majority.

While I wish you were correct, perhaps your commentary is a trifle oversimplified.

[Jim Sagle]

7. Avoiding an Eretz Israel is a GOOD thing, yes?

[TomClash]

9. Not to the Likud

I said they want to avoid an Eretz Israel with an Arab majority.

They'd love to have an Eretz Israel without an Arab majority - or in some extreme cases - without any arabs at all.

[Jim Sagle]

12. Only the right edge of Likud wants that. The rest will follow Sharon.

[eyl]

8. Before the intifada

were the restrictions this article complains about anywhere near as tight?

[TomClash]

10. Certainly not

But the intifada was not really about restrictions or Sharon's little visit - it was about the seven years of failure after Oslo.

[eyl]

11. On Israelis' behalf as well,

not just the Palestinians'

[caitlyn]

15. No.

There was no security fence, no roadblocks or checkpoints, Israelis and Palestinians were doing joint security patrols, the Palestinian economy was developing and growing and 92% of the population was living under Palestinian Authority rule.

I have to agree with people like Shimon Peres, Bill Clinton, Dennis Ross, who basically feel that the Israelis did make a decent offer and that at least a counteroffer should have followed, not a terror war. It is clear that the Palestinians could have gotten a better deal because one was offered at Taba later that year. A counteroffer and continued negotiations would have been what a leader interested in peace would have done. I don't think Arafat was interested.

[caitlyn]

14. Before the intifada...

...Ehud Barak offered all of Gaza, 91% of the West Bank, compensatory land in the Negev, and shared control of Jerusalem. Later at Taba he upped the offer to 97% of the West Bank and increasing the size of Gaza by 1/3, desalination plants to insure an adequate supply of water, limited return of refugees to reunite families, and compensation for all Palestinian refugees. Yasser Arafat dismissed all this as "insufficient" and went on with his war instead. There never was a counteroffer. Ehud Barak also offered to leave the remaining disputed items "open for further negotiation". Not good enough.

President Clinton blamed the failure of Camp David squarely on Yasser Arafat's shoulders. Dennis Ross called Arafat "incapable" of making a deal. Those who encouraged Arafat to take Barak's offer included the Saudis, Hosni Mubarek of Egypt, Mahmoud Abbas, and King Abdullah of Jordan.

The Palestinians could have had an end to occupation. Before the intifada 92% of their population had self-rule already.

I think it is you who are oversimplifying. I tend to believe President Clinton about what happened. Why would he lie?

[Violet_Crumble]

16. That was an incredibly simplistic version of Camp David/Taba...

Generally any version that places all the blame on one party is bound to be overly simplistic and more intent on railing about the 'bad guys' at the expense of fact...

On the failure of Camp David:

• At Camp David, the three parties involved all deserved criticism for their failings - the US for not playing a pro-active role of mediator in preference to sitting back and allowing Israeli negotiators to run the show, the Palestinians for not coming back with solid counter-proposals, and Israel for not having a grasp of what the bottom line were with the issues being negotiated...
  
  
• About the 'generous offer' of Barak - While it was unprecedented, it was in no way generous. The 91% land offer was more in reality around 86%, and the West Bank would not have been contiguous territory, but broken up into two or three separate areas. The 'generous' land-swap involved Israel offering 1 percent of low-quality land known as the Halutza Sand in exchange for 9 percent of West Bank land. Finally, Barak was not offering shared control of Jerusalem at all. He was not offering full Palestinian sovereignty over Arab areas of East Jerusalem, but functional autonomy over those areas, a very different thing. East Jerusalem would have still had Israeli sovereignty and only small outlying villages would have had Palestinian sovereignty.
  
  
• None of the proposals at Camp David were written ones. They were verbal and therefore vague.
  

Now for Taba:

Barak didn't make an offer at Taba, so it would have been pretty damn hard for Arafat to reject an offer that was never made. What you don't seem to be aware of is that at Taba the Israeli and Palestinian negotiators came closer to agreement on the issues than ever before. Taba was Barak's last gasp with an election looming, and since Camp David Israel was more aware of what the Palestinian bottom line was and made genuine efforts to move in that direction, for which Israel should be commended. Both parties deserve to be commended for Taba, not attacked. Taba was different to Camp David in that the Israelis and Palestinians were involved without the US, which I suspect is a reason Taba was more positive. Taba should be the basis for a settlement of the conflict when Israel finally gets a leader who wants to end the conflict with a negotiated settlement (I suspect the Palestinians now have one, so it's a waiting game)...

I think you need to read up on the negotiations at both Camp David and Taba. Here's a few things to get you going in that direction:

Visions In Collision: What Happened at Camp David and Taba?

Camp David: The Tragedy of Errors

About the role of the US at Camp David, there's a book called Peace Process: American Diplomacy and the Arab-Israeli Conflict since 1967 by William Qandt.

EU non-paper on the Taba talks

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Understanding why the talks failed isn't about taking sides...

And I'm not sure at all how you managed to come to the conclusion by my post that I'd taken a side over why the talks failed. After all, I pointed out that blame falls on all three parties involved at Camp David, and that the Israeli and Palestinian negotiators at Taba deserved to be praised for moving way closer than ever before on the issues. But somehow that translates into me making up my mind which side to support? You make it sound like the failure of Camp David and Oslo was a football game where people choose a side and stick to them no matter what. It wasn't, and to be blunt, those who do choose sides and stick to them at all costs aren't the slightest bit interested in anything but booing at the other team, which makes them kind of pointless to discuss issues like Camp David and Taba with. Which is why yr questions were pretty ridiculous ones. You'd have known that if you'd read the links that I posted for you to look at. The last question was outright offensive and I'd suggest you think twice in future before implying that I support terrorism and the murder of innocent civilians...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

5. Good point NT

[newyorican]

6. There have always been...

excellent *sounding* rationalizations for committing these types of acts. History has always proved them to be self-serving, fallacious and wrong. This will be no different.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. There were quite a few first steps along the Roadmap, remember?

Phase I: Ending Terror And Violence, Normalizing Palestinian Life, and Building Palestinian Institutions -- Present to May 2003

In Phase I, the Palestinians immediately undertake an unconditional cessation of violence according to the steps outlined below; such action should be accompanied by supportive measures undertaken by Israel. Palestinians and Israelis resume security cooperation based on the Tenet work plan to end violence, terrorism, and incitement through restructured and effective Palestinian security services. Palestinians undertake comprehensive political reform in preparation for statehood, including drafting a Palestinian constitution, and free, fair and open elections upon the basis of those measures. Israel takes all necessary steps to help normalize Palestinian life. Israel withdraws from Palestinian areas occupied from September 28, 2000 and the two sides restore the status quo that existed at that time, as security performance and cooperation progress. Israel also freezes all settlement activity, consistent with the Mitchell report.

At the outset of Phase I:

• Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel’s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel.
  
• Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its commitment to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel, as expressed by President Bush, and calling for an immediate end to violence against Palestinians everywhere. All official Israeli institutions end incitement against Palestinians.
  

Security

• Palestinians declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism and undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere.
  
• Rebuilt and refocused Palestinian Authority security apparatus begins sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure. This includes commencing confiscation of illegal weapons and consolidation of security authority, free of association with terror and corruption.
  
• GOI takes no actions undermining trust, including deportations, attacks on civilians; confiscation and/or demolition of Palestinian homes and property, as a punitive measure or to facilitate Israeli construction; destruction of Palestinian institutions and infrastructure; and other measures specified in the Tenet work plan.
  
• Relying on existing mechanisms and on-the-ground resources, Quartet representatives begin informal monitoring and consult with the parties on establishment of a formal monitoring mechanism and its implementation.
  
• Implementation, as previously agreed, of U.S. rebuilding, training and resumed security cooperation plan in collaboration with outside oversight board (U.S.–Egypt–Jordan). Quartet support for efforts to achieve a lasting, comprehensive cease-fire.
  
• All Palestinian security organizations are consolidated into three services reporting to an empowered Interior Minister.
  
• Restructured/retrained Palestinian security forces and IDF counterparts progressively resume security cooperation and other undertakings in implementation of the Tenet work plan, including regular senior-level meetings, with the participation of U.S. security officials.
  
• Arab states cut off public and private funding and all other forms of support for groups supporting and engaging in violence and terror.
  
• All donors providing budgetary support for the Palestinians channel these funds through the Palestinian Ministry of Finance's Single Treasury Account.
  
• As comprehensive security performance moves forward, IDF withdraws progressively from areas occupied since September 28, 2000 and the two sides restore the status quo that existed prior to September 28, 2000. Palestinian security forces redeploy to areas vacated by IDF.
  

Palestinian Institution-Building

• Immediate action on credible process to produce draft constitution for Palestinian statehood. As rapidly as possible, constitutional committee circulates draft Palestinian constitution, based on strong parliamentary democracy and cabinet with empowered prime minister, for public comment/debate. Constitutional committee proposes draft document for submission after elections for approval by appropriate Palestinian institutions.
  
• Appointment of interim prime minister or cabinet with empowered executive authority/decision-making body.
  
• GOI fully facilitates travel of Palestinian officials for PLC and Cabinet sessions, internationally supervised security retraining, electoral and other reform activity, and other supportive measures related to the reform efforts.
  
• Continued appointment of Palestinian ministers empowered to undertake fundamental reform. Completion of further steps to achieve genuine separation of powers, including any necessary Palestinian legal reforms for this purpose.
  
• Establishment of independent Palestinian election commission. PLC reviews and revises election law.
  
• Palestinian performance on judicial, administrative, and economic benchmarks, as established by the International Task Force on Palestinian Reform.
  
• As early as possible, and based upon the above measures and in the context of open debate and transparent candidate selection/electoral campaign based on a free, multi-party process, Palestinians hold free, open, and fair elections.
  
• GOI facilitates Task Force election assistance, registration of voters, movement of candidates and voting officials. Support for NGOs involved in the election process.
  
• GOI reopens Palestinian Chamber of Commerce and other closed Palestinian institutions in East Jerusalem based on a commitment that these institutions operate strictly in accordance with prior agreements between the parties.
  

Humanitarian Response

• Israel takes measures to improve the humanitarian situation. Israel and Palestinians implement in full all recommendations of the Bertini report to improve humanitarian conditions, lifting curfews and easing restrictions on movement of persons and goods, and allowing full, safe, and unfettered access of international and humanitarian personnel.
  
• AHLC reviews the humanitarian situation and prospects for economic development in the West Bank and Gaza and launches a major donor assistance effort, including to the reform effort.
  
• GOI and PA continue revenue clearance process and transfer of funds, including arrears, in accordance with agreed, transparent monitoring mechanism.
  

Civil Society

• Continued donor support, including increased funding through PVOs/NGOs, for people to people programs, private sector development and civil society initiatives.
  

Settlements

• GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001.
  
• Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements).
  

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm

[bemildred]

19. What is all this "Road Map" talk anyway?

I have heard almost zero "Road Map" talk for about two years now.

Now, all of a sudden, it's starting to come up again. But it sounds like it's the amended version, not the original one the Shrubites came out with that is being talked about. I remember there being several different versions that were all referred to as though they were the same. I may have them bookmarked around somewhere.

[bribri16]

17. Fighting for land that belonged to you doesn't make you a 'terrorist'

Hamas did not exist BEFORE the occupation of Palestinian territories.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. And...

The OT didn't exist before 4 nations invaded Israel. Funny thing though, the lands were under Arab control and no Palestinian homeland was created then...

[caitlyn]

22. ...nor was Jordanian and Egyptian occupation...

...ever protested or condemned. Why is that?

[Behind the Aegis]

23. From the 80's or 90's....Flashback....

Things that make you go hmmmm. :shrug:

[bribri16]

24. The Palestinian were not treated so brutally under Arab control.

I don't recall homes being demolished, wells being confiscated, farms being destroyed. Do you?

[Behind the Aegis]

28. I don't recall Palestinians attacking Arab controllers...

except in Jordan...after which they were expelled from the country....losing all land and right of return!

[eyl]

37. Tell that

to the 10,000 Palestinians Jordan killed.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. And...

acknowledge that Arabs have been brutal to Palestinians?! Perish the thought! :sarcasm:

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Has this subthread run off-course?

I thought the original point made was that when Egypt occupied Gaza, it wasn't a brutal occupation where homes were demolished, etc. But the discussion seems to have turned into any example of Arab brutality after the Egyptian occupation of Gaza ended, which to me is a whole different discussion. I'm not really sure why you seem to think it's impossible for people to acknowledge that there has been grave mistreatment of Palestinians by some Arab states. Black September and the expulsion of Palestinians from Kuwait are two that immediately come to mind. But I'm not seeing where those examples support any argument that the Egyptian and Jordanian occupations of Gaza and the West Bank were accompanied by the level of belligerency that the Israeli occupation of those two areas has had...

Violet...

[TomClash]

29. Funny thing, though, that there was a Palestine

before immigration created Israel.

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Funnier still

Palestine could have still been there had the Arabs accepted living next to Jews.

[TomClash]

31. Funniest of all

is how someone can believe that "Palestine could still have been there" when in 1947 55% of it was . . . Israel.

[Behind the Aegis]

32. Take it up with the UN

[TomClash]

33. Nope

That time has long passed.

[Behind the Aegis]

34. So true...

Therefore, Israel exists.

[TomClash]

35. Who's arguing with that?

Well, that knocked down that straw man.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. mmm..yeah, OK...whatever

:eyes:

[TomClash]

40. So what does that mean?

Is that supposed to be some "subtle" attempt at ridicule?

:boring:

[eyl]

36. Which is equivalent

to saying America existed prior to 1776.

[caitlyn]

21. What makes someone a terrorist...

...is deliberately attacking innocent civilians rather than military targets. That, by definition, is a terrorist. That makes Hamas terrorist.

"Palestinian territories"? Please show me a map of the last independent Palestinian state. Please state the dates when such a state existed. There would be NO occupation today if Yasser Arafat, instead of starting a terror war, responded to Camp David with a counteroffer. He had another chance to end occupation at Taba. He chose not to. He chose war instead.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. So you do think settlers who attack Palestinian civilians are terrorists?

It's just that I saw you in another thread claiming that there'd only been three terrorist attacks on Palestinians in the past ten years....

And yet again, please take the time to read the links I gave you in this post so you don't keep on repeating the same nonsense about Camp David and Taba. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x98176#98712

btw, are you disputing that the West Bank and Gaza are not Palestinian territory? Acknowledging the fact that they are Palestinian territory has zero to do with whether or not there was ever an independent state previously....

Violet...

[rfkrfk]

27. more like a 'reverse' prison

I would think that anyone could leave,
if some other country would have you,

you might not be allowed back in.