Blaming the Jews for the War In Iraq

[SoDesuKa]

Jews will probably take the blame for losing the war in Iraq. This is the conclusion reached by the late Murray Friedman in his latest book, "Jewish Intellectuals and the Shaping of Public Policy."

Friedman argues that Jewish intellectuals comprise the core of the neocon movement, the primary influence behind the invasion of Iraq, and will take the blame if that policy fails.

But it is in the area of foreign policy that the neocons have become controversial, principally because of the war in Iraq. Jewish intellectuals and policy makers such as Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle - and William Kristol, Irving's son - were important voices urging the Bush administration to pursue the war on terrorism by invading Iraq in March 2003 ...

Because of the strong link between Jewish intellectuals and the war in Iraq, their reputations will rise or fall depending on the outcome of the war, Friedman says.

...Friedman concludes that the legacy of neoconservatives will rest on events in Iraq. If American casualties increase and the insurgency intensifies, the invasion may well turn out to be the disaster critics of the war have predicted. Should a stable and democratic Iraq not emerge, then the war will be viewed as an unmitigated failure, comparable to the war in Vietnam, and the neoconservative movement will shoulder the blame.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/entertainment/books/12367297.htm

[bpilgrim]

1. more like blaming the neoCONs connected with Israel

shouldn't this be in the dungeon though?

peace

[whistle]

4. Dungeon???

[bpilgrim]

5. I/P forum

:hi:

peace

[TahitiNut]

21. No. It's about religious bigotry not I/P relations.

It's as invalid as ascribing the crimes of the Nazi's to the fact the leadership were predominatly raised Catholic. It's nuts.

[bpilgrim]

34. if you don't think that our problems are about I/P relation

than i don't know what to tell you :shrug:

point out who is who and what their affiliations are is a common method of investigation.

peace

[Coastie for Truth]

104. If you don't think that our problems are about OIL

1. You haven't filled up your tank recently.

2. You haven't actually read Project for a New American Century

3. You haven't read

a. James Howard Kunstler,The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of the Oil Age, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-first Century
b. Kenneth Deffeyes, Beyond Oil : The View from Hubbert's Peak
c. Kenneth Deffeyes, Hubbert's Peak : The Impending World Oil Shortage
d. David Goodstein, Out of Gas: The End of the Age of Oil

4. You are unaware of how the Bedouin proletariat have been "exploited" (yes - "exploited" in the Karl Marx sense) by the Mineral Exploitation industries and the Romanov-like House of Saud.

5. You are also unaware of the ties between George Bush (both Poppie and Son) to the oil industry and the House of Saud --- read Craig Unger, House of Bush, House of Saud : The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties

[bleedingheart]

2. Sadly I have actually heard a lot of older folks say that...

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. You know if they were catholic nobody would mention this

but they are Jewish , so they do... how about we get off the Jewish part and just say they are failures as human beings?

I can see a rise of antisemitism, the ugly kind, because people will be reminded, Krisol and Perle and Wolfowitz are Jewish... ok, why is the Jewish part matters? IF they were Unitarian nobody would care, if they were Protestant nobody would care, but alas they are Jewish.

That is what is so irritating about this.

Oh and their reputations should be dust, and then some... but not because they are Jewish, but because they are failures.

Rant off

[bpilgrim]

7. the spy scandal is what is elevating this

as well as the current aggressive regime in israel.

peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Does not matter, we have had spy rings in the past

but look at the historical pattern, if they are Jews, this is mentioned in the media, if they are not forget it.

As to the aggressive government in Israel, they don't have all support all the time from all Jews, including some in the Army, yet you never see this reported either, or very rarely.

This continues and I can foresee hate attacks, just because they are Jewish... most Jews ARE LOYAL to this country and are more than just annoyed with these idiots, not because they are Jews, but because we had to put our behind in the line

I am the wife of a Vet, he happens to be Jewish, so was one of his officers... but I guess they are not loyal either, shadows of Germany, and if this continues it will get out of hand.

Do jews need to be educated, yes, but so does every other party... and at this point it is up to the people on the ground NOT ME, not YOU.

[bpilgrim]

26. it certainly does matter - TODAY - how can you think that it doesn't?

"if they are Jews, this is mentioned in the media, if they are not forget it."

when a spy story breaks, i hear all about them, wether they are chinese or christian.

"As to the aggressive government in Israel, they don't have all support all the time from all Jews, including some in the Army, yet you never see this reported either, or very rarely."

thats the same everywhere and it is up to me & you and the rest of us to pass the word.

peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. I am sorry but it should not matter what the RELIGION

happens to be for a US Citizen... and this is the point. IF this is a Chinese or Russian Spy, they were FOREIGN SPIES, but if they happen to be American, their RELIGION SHOULD NOT matter, is this clear enough for you now?

[bpilgrim]

51. Israeli spy's are a matter of huge importance today

no one is attacking the jewish religion, just pointing out their affiliations and their allegiance.

muslims are much more persecuted today due to their religion alone but when we got Israeli spy's operating in the highest offices of our gov it is a major concern.

is that clear enough for you?

peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. As long as people stop pushing the fact they were Jewish

BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE! This has not been done, this is the JEWISH (insert spy here)... if they were Catholic you think anybody would be writing the CATHOLIC insert name here? THAT IS THE FREAKING DAMN POINT!

[bpilgrim]

71. If the person is jewish and a spy for israel it is relevant to the story

spy's lives are generally exposed in great detail, even christians.

fyi

peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. the fact they are chsistians is not part of the story

EVER...

[bpilgrim]

80. yes it is

i have heard about how often they go to church, how high up they were in their christian community, etc.

the bigger the spy the more i hear. maybe you are hearing only what you want to hear, a very common mis-perception when you are partisan.

peace

[bpilgrim]

83. Robert Philip Hanssen

The Hanssen family members were Catholic conservatives. They belonged to Opus Dei, a small but powerful faction of Catholicism that many called a cult. The Hanssen family displayed their conservative beliefs prominently, marching in pro-life rallies, slapping anti-abortion stickers on the family van, and attending gun shows. Bob collected guns; there were 14 in the house ranging from an Uzi semiautomatic rifle to Walther PPK pistols. The Walther PPK was James Bond’s weapon of choice and Hanssen, a Bond fan, had two in his collection.

source...
http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/spies/hanssen/1.html

peace

[Coastie for Truth]

106. As in Aldrich Ames, and Opus Dei member Robert Philip Hanssen N/T

[TahitiNut]

39. Can we STOP equating 'Jew' to 'Israel'??

Not all Jews are Israelis and not all Israelis are Jews. These are NOT equivalent terms.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. that is what I am saying

but look at the press, they are the ones pushing this, not me... look at the OP

[Must_B_Free]

86. sure, and while we're at it

lets stop equating anti-likud, anti-zionist, and anti-israel to anti-semetic.

The Rabbis of jewsnotzionists oppose all of those things and they are certainly not antisemetic.

[geek tragedy]

99. The problem is that there are a lot of people who are anti-Israel

but not anti-People's Republic of China, not anti-Democratic People's Republic of Korea, not anti-House of Saud, not anti-Burmese government, not anti-Janjaweed militia, not anti-Hamas, not anti-Baath party.

Saddam and Hafez al-Assad killed FAR more Muslims and Arab civilians than Israel has. Kuwait and Lebanon have treated Palestinians living within their borders like dogs.

But, for some reason, some folks are FIXATED on Israel, and treat it like it's the worst regime on the planet, when it's not even close.

[barb162]

142. Excellent points

and ones I think of often. There was an article on BBC news this past week on Philipino maids and workers being treated like shit/like slaves in various Arab countries, not getting paid for months at a time if at all, being physically abused, beaten, etc. I guess it is very common that this happens as the Philipinos were escaping to their embassies in the region. And I was reading this article, whoa, WTF is going on with the way these Philipinos are being treated. Well, I was thinking of testing:Take the same story and post it with Israelis hiring them versus the story as original. I bet a buck the story of Israelis violating the human rights of the Philipinos would get more condemnation responses than a story of the Arab countries doing the same thing. Yeah,I believe there's a fixation on Israel by some.

[geek tragedy]

148. Not to excuse what Israel does, mind you, but can you imagine

what would happen if Israel were to expel 400,000 nowadays, like the Kuwaitis did to the Palestinians?

[barb162]

151. Holy

sh*t! NO way, I can't imagine.

[Violet_Crumble]

185. I can imagine...

There'd be rightful outrage and condemnation from most people, but unfortunately there'd be some (mainly conservative, but unfortunately some progressives) who'd immediately rush to defend Israels actions and make all sorts of excuses to justify something like that happening. That's generally the approach to the approx 700,000 Palestinians who were expelled or fled between 1947-50...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

184. A thread about the Phillipines would get locked...

It's got something to do with this being the *gasp* I/P forum, not the Everything Else But I/P Forum...

[Ian David]

37. The aggressive regime giving The Alamo back to Mexico?

Yes, that's a metaphor.

[Coastie for Truth]

105. Spy scandal?

Oil company mouthpiece and Bush lawyer sits in the White House, the Carlyle Board, and several oil company boards, a failed oil man is our President, the former CEO of the largest oil field service company in the world (Halliburton) is our Vice President.

Smell the roses

[sellitman]

9. There are tons of Anti Semites on the left.

The funny thing is that traditionally Jews are strongly Democratic. Even today. My love of israel has no effect with my hatred of bush.

To bad many on the left cannot figure out who their real friends are. These Neo-Cons are not good humans. I don't care what religion they might be.

[bpilgrim]

15. care to name the tons of lefty Anti Semites?

i don't know of any but that is why i come here, to learn.

tia :hi:

peace

[Ignoramus]

30. Any who support the wall in Israel are anti-semitic

As in, anti-palestinian. Arabs are semitic I think. A "jew" can be of various ethnicities.

Count down to thread lock. 2... 3... 4... 5...

[Behind the Aegis]

74. Wrong definition

Anti-Semitism is discrimination or prejudice against Jews, not any other group, no matter their gene pool.

[Ignoramus]

93. A semite is an arab, ethiopian, hebrew etc.

Someone opposed to semites would be anti-semitic. If the term is separated from it's english meaning, in common usage, that probably indicates racism.

[geek tragedy]

94. Anti-semitism has never meant anti-Arab prejudice. It has always

meant anti-Jewish prejudice. It was coined specifically to refer to anti-Jewish prejudice.

[Behind the Aegis]

122. get thee to a dictionary!!!!

[Coastie for Truth]

129. Are you campaigning for a Presidential candidate?

<>

weren't two enough---

[Lithos]

136. You are right and wrong

Yes, Semitic and Semites are a broad group. However, the term Anti-Semite was created specifically to further discuss early pro-Aryan theories which placed the Jews at the bottom rung. The context Semite was always a substitute for Jew. It gained further use when it was brought into use by those promoting Judenhass, or Jew-hatred.

Can't remember the time frames, but it is a fairly recent develoment, sometime around 1870 or so when the start of the intellectual movement which culminated in Hitler's Germany was in full development.

L-

[Violet_Crumble]

187. A bit more...

It was in the latter 19th century that a German called Willhelm Marr coined the term 'anti-Semitic'. He did it because the word Judenhass was considered coarse and ugly and he wanted something sounding more scientific and clean...

The way I see it is if someone refers to Semites, they're referring to the groups of people who shared Semitic languages, and if they're referring to anti-Semitism, they're referring to a hatred of Jews.

Violet...

[Lithos]

188. Yes

Wilhelm Marr did coin the word. The historian Heinrich von Treitschke was his model though in the "new volk" discrimination of Jews, Catholics and Poles in the rising German nationalism of the late 19th century. Heinrich von Treitschke frequently used semite to mean "Jew", so Marr just defined what Treitschke was talking about.

In any event, it's all an attempt to put lipstick on a pig. Judenhass (and other attempts to justify any sort of bigotry) is ugly and evil no matter what you call it.

L-

[Colorado Blue]

117. Sorry, NOT. "Antisemitism" specifically refers to bigotry

against JEWS.

Antiarabism is bigotry against Arabs.

Attempts to conflate the two are attempts to rewrite history and that's a very bad trend that's being attempted recently, and it's akin to Holocaust denial. It's nothing less than an attempt to deny Jewish history and it's a terrible thing to do.

[sellitman]

48. Those who blame bush's lies on the Jews are case in point.

I could go on but what we need here on the left is less divisiveness and more cooperation in removing the world of the Fasc-shits in Washington.

[bpilgrim]

52. WHO does that?

tia :hi:

peace

[geek tragedy]

95. Somebody posted an article by a bigot that claims that the Jews, er, the

Zionists planned both Iraq wars.

Racist nutters.

[jaysunb]

53. Strange....

but, I've yet to meet one lefty or progressive that speaks ill of Jewish people. As a matter of fact, lots of them ARE Jewish.
It's really unfair for you to make blanket statments like that, just like Friedman trying to predict how people will feel about a few Zionist that have risen to the point in our Government where they can influence policy directions.

I feel strongly that the whole Iraqi mess was a result of the aforementioned Zionist and others who found a willing stooge in GWB, to push their own agenda. I consider these people traitors of this country. But, I certainly don't blame the vast majority of the Jewish people, and I'd bet, most other people don't either.

[Colorado Blue]

118. "Zionist" simply means, one who supports the Jewish homeland

in Israel. Nothing more and nothing less.

To deny Jewish self-determination in Israel is extremely bigoted, considering the history of the situation. So I really don't understand why, as Israel has been a reality for decades now, we are still seriously discussing "antiZionism". Doesn't that really mean destroying Israel and the majority of her people? Indeed I would submit that MOST Jews, Israeli and Diaspora alike, are Zionists. So - are we evil?

I must add, however, "Zionism" has taken on connotations that are truly bigoted, thanks to antisemitic literature that has been widely circulated since the early part of the 20th century.

Progressives, however, should be aware of the true meaning of the term.

[Coastie for Truth]

131. I posted extensively on this at

- That is in this forum ---- take your cursor and click on it. See also on DU and and try these books: (Kunstler, "The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of the Oil Age, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-first Century " and both of Ken Defeyes' books, "Beyond Oil : The View from Hubbert's Peak" and "
Hubbert's Peak : The Impending World Oil Shortage.")

Btw - the Jews are not "behind" the war in Iraq --- they are victims of the war in Iraq -- -- an illegal boycott when applied to Jewish employees as regards, hiring, termination, promotion in domestic operations of domestic oil companies -- illegal as heck - .

OK - these Bush contributors also discriminate against females, African Americas, Latinos, Handicappers, Older employees, and GLBTs. OK - they have also lost every discrimination law suit. But they still go on with it under cover of the Arab League Boycott.

I strongly feel that the whole Iraqi mess was the result of the action of a few white Christian gazzilionaire males named in the link like Lee Raymond of ExxonMobil, Dave O'Reilly of TexacoChevron, Ray Irani of Oxy, Rick Wagoner of GM, and Gerstner of Carlyle, and, of course, Jim Baker (the Bush Family's and the House of Saud's "Zelig"). And I have been in the "industry" for 30+ years - not the Main Stream Energy Industry -- but the alternative, renewable, green energy industry. My kind don't get hired by the Main Stream Energy Industry.

You can sit back there and append "But, I certainly don't blame the vast majority of the Jewish people, and I'd bet, most other people don't either." -- but I bettcha old Karl Rove is going to go back to the oldest wedge issue in Western Civilization come 2008 --- and the Liberals who buy into Friedman's analysis will only have themselves to blame for the Reign of the Second Son--->
<>

Don't blame me -- I spent a career trying to wean us from Saudi Arabia and Arab oil.

[Just Me]

87. WTF are you talking about? Those on the "left" carefully separate,...

,...the responsibility of a handful of ASSHOLES from other people. Those on the "right" typically smear a whole people or religion or nation or organization on the basis of the behavior of a few assholes.

I'd really appreciate identification of that "ton" on the left who are anti-semites because I believe that is a totally baseless and bullshit assertion.

[Colorado Blue]

143. With respect, reading some of the many conspiracy theory

threads on this very forum, one could most certainly get the impression, if those threads are representative of left-wing thinking, that the left is bigoted, period.

My hope is that these ideas are NOT representative of liberal thought. However Dr. Dean had to issue a comment strongly denouncing the dissemination of similar antisemitic bullshit during the hearings a couple of months ago. The "Jewish question" has haunted all aspects of the War on Terror and the War in Iraq from the very day of the attacks, with Arabs (and others) blaming Israel directly or indirectly, and going on from there, to include even notions about landlord lightening, fake airplanes, Jews staying home from work, causing the war in Iraq, running the US government, etc etc and so forth. Unfortunately I read ALL this stuff right here on DU and it's been a miserable experience which is causing me to wonder what the hell IS a progressive, and worse, should I be packing my bags?

Garbage like this has lain behind every crime against the Jewish people for nearly 2,000 years. It is incredibly dangerous and distressingly, in the 21st century, incredibly common.

[wuushew]

10. Unitarians do not have a sovereign state in the middle east

faith and foreign policy have created a dangerous nexus in a region of the world that supplies a large percentage of our petroleum needs.

The support for the creation of the state of Israel while paying political dividends during the Truman administration has increased tensions and American involvement in a region of world we should not be in.

Also it set a poor precedent by which the international community supposedly recognized self-determination of indigenous peoples following the aftermath of the First World War and later in the era of the United Nations.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Care to tell me about indigenous peoples and The

League of Nations? IT IS PART OF THAT TRADITION, don't rewrite history, and by the way, BECOME familiar with the paris Conference of 1918, what is going on right now is the direct descendant of THAT.

[wuushew]

28. The Balfour Declaration was a bad bad idea

The British were just looking for a convenient release valve for their own anti-semitism problems.

Why couldn't the Palestinian inhabitants of the former Ottoman Empire successfully organize effective self-government? Don't say the area was somehow uninhabited.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. What I am saying is that

all of this is already written history, so instead of going balfour declaration this or that... time to let the people in the area solve this, that means, Israeli and Palestinians. We have no say any more... period. IT is up to them... but if the radicals on either sides have their say, can you say Genocide? I knew you could

So whether it was a bad idea or not is besides the point, so was Iraq, and Jordan and everything else done as Class II Protectorates... but that is history... time to move on, and it is UP TO THEM, not you, not me, THEM

[Coastie for Truth]

107. The Balfour Declaration

was de facto superseded by the specific terms and conditions of the Sykes-Picot Agreement.

[Colorado Blue]

116. Amen. nt

[Igel]

139. If they were Catholic, people would be ranting how they're all

obviously in Opus Dei, and it's conspiracy.

If they were evangelicals, they'd be Dominionists.

Anglican or UU? Not a problem. They're largely approved faiths.

The original neocons were mostly leftist converts to RW causes: along with some sometimes trivial ideological differences, they imported their desire to change things. They were largely Jewish. Reminiscent of the charges of a Jewish socialist conspiracy I heard from old-timers when I was a teenager.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

6. Should we blame Jews because Hollywood movies suck as well?

Please, let's give this Jew=Neocon stuff a rest already.

[bpilgrim]

12. The Israel spy scandal is what is fanning the flames (Israel/neoCONs)

fyi

peace

[geek tragedy]

36. Oh please. This crap has been going since 911 and the 4000 Jews

who allegedly were told to stay home.

If anything bad happens anywhere in the world, one can bet on some conspiracy nuts alleging that Mossad was involved.

[bpilgrim]

46. BBC: Israel spy loses US jail appeal

BBC News, UK - Jul 22, 2005

By Oliver Conway. A spy who sold US military secrets to Israel has lost an appeal to have his life sentence reduced. Jonathan Pollard ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4709477.stm

fyi

peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Ok Jonathan Pollard sold intel to Israel

he happened to be a Jew by faith, but he was also a US Navy Warant Officer, if memory serves, so he is an American first who commited treason, how about we get off his religion...

Oh never mind

[bpilgrim]

56. and he isn't the only one selling out ALL our secrets to israel

we need to get to the bottom of this.

peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. And we have had trio who sold all the codes for the

Atlantic Fleet to the Ruskies

And we have some selling to the Chinese...

Espionage is most likely the second oldest profession, your point here is?

Is it bad and wrong? yes, but it does happen and this dirty game also means that some Israelis may be selling to US, we recruit Russians on a regular basis, as well as brits, as well as Chinese...

It is part of a very dirty game that goes in the shadows... your point? I mean what do you think our outed CIA agent was doing? Playing games?

And why do you think many of her assets ARE DEAD now?

It is NOT exclusive to Israel or US Isreali relations, wake up and smell the damn coffee

[bpilgrim]

72. and when they are caught their lives are examined in the public record

goes with the territory. what do you expect, something different, for israeli spy's?

i don't think so.

peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. If they are CHRISTIAN SPIES

that is NOT part of the story, but if they are Jewish YES... that is the problem... their lives shoudl be part of the recod NOT THEIR RELIGION, why is this so bloody hard for people to understand?

[bpilgrim]

81. you learn what church they went to, how often and how high up they were

in the hierarchy.

peace

[bpilgrim]

84. ie: Robert Philip Hanssen

Robert Philip Hanssen

The Hanssen family members were Catholic conservatives. They belonged to Opus Dei, a small but powerful faction of Catholicism that many called a cult. The Hanssen family displayed their conservative beliefs prominently, marching in pro-life rallies, slapping anti-abortion stickers on the family van, and attending gun shows. Bob collected guns; there were 14 in the house ranging from an Uzi semiautomatic rifle to Walther PPK pistols. The Walther PPK was James Bond’s weapon of choice and Hanssen, a Bond fan, had two in his collection.

source...
http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/spies/hanssen/1.html

fyi

peace

[geek tragedy]

58. What does that prove? That story is from 2005--the whole Jew=Neocon

thing predates that.

[bpilgrim]

59. just pointing out we have a HUGE problem with neoCONs, Israel and their

ME policies, TODAY.

peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. It is not becuse they are Jewish

and that is the pont, but go ahead blame the Jews, has been done for at least 2K years, so what is new?

[bpilgrim]

68. no, it is because they are spying and catastrophically influencing our FP

fyi: i am not 'blaming the jews' but go ahead, twist and spin, i'm used to it and it is very revealing.

tia :toast:

peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. No you have made the connection of Jew= Neo Con

re read what you are saying... but they are not the only ones doing that... right now they are very influential, far more than JINSA shoudl be, start suporting TIKUN and the teach ins ok...

[bpilgrim]

78. there you go again, twisting & spinning

i am just pointing out the connections, and it is not Anti-Semitic to do so.

peace

[Colorado Blue]

144. Sure it is, especially when doing so de facto overlooks the

fact that the real power in the US has ALWAYS been heavy industry and increasingly, the OIL industry and its associates.

THAT is the driving power behind the US government. Focusing attention on a few Jews is bigoted and deflects attention from the real issues - obviously convenient for the James Bakers of the world.

So it's bad on two counts - and on a third, the demonization of an entire people that is resulting from this stuff.

Associating "peace" with bigotry isn't a good thing.

SHALOM.

[Andromeda]

172. I find what you are saying is classically ...

anti-Semitic. There is no other way to describe it.

[Colorado Blue]

119. This crap has been going on for 2,000 years already. Why

can't people see this is simply more of the same old, same old?

[Coastie for Truth]

108. No - what is fanning the flames

are the SMU Chem engineering graduates and the TCU chemical engineering graduates --- ain't no Jews in Big Oil.

[Copperred]

13. The issue boils down to America first if your an American.

America has a big Zionist problem on its hands. Many of our brethren believe it is in our countries interest to support a foreign nation at whatever cost. On the same token, we have the exact same problem in protecting the Royal Family of Saudi Arabia...there are those who think protecting them at all cost is also in our nations fortune.

These issues need to be fully talked about in the US media and more importantly in the public discourse.

The issue, thank G_d, has nothing to do with Jews. It has to do with Americans who believe supporting oppressive nations outside of our borders is somehow in our interest. Nations as such include Israel, Pakistan, Saudia Arabia, and China..though China does not need us.

This discussion is going to grow much bigger in the US. The US MSM will try to stop the discussion from happening, but it won't matter.

Great changes are coming.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Ok how many years have you served in the Military

protecting this country, or for that matter how long have you served in public services?

Try selling this crap ola to whoever is buying ok.

Problem is that many American Jews are first American and then Jews, just like Germany, and one day because of this crappola we will wake up in a country that rather hates us, just because we were born Jewsish...

Oh and I don't discount the Neo Cons, but they just happen to be Jewish, and they are dangerous... but what if they were Catholic? Now answer that?

[Copperred]

49. If the beneficiary were the Vatican or Ireland......I'd be wondering...

When it comes to U.S. foreign policy specifically, I act from a selfish U.S. perpestive. I am not a member of the armed services, though, as I am sure you know, to serve your country you do not need to pick up a gun.

As to the idea of the Neocons being dominated by Catholics instead of what are Americans who believe Israel's interests are paramount to the U.S. (let's call them Israeli agents) that would be note worthy I suppose if realized, but in this context it is a hypothetical note of no value.

However, if the Neocons were, instead of Israel, focused on the U.S. putting itself in harms way for Rome or Ireland....then the Catholic element would be immediately obvious and of profound importance.

The issue is simple, and has nothing to do with religion, hatred of one group or another. It comes down to whose interests are you protecting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Ok let me state this clearly

Israel is a State, a sovereign state so is the US. There are times that the policies of two sovereign sates may coincide, there are times they don't

Example the whole mess in Iraq is a common goal, we are allies, but Israel selling Military Technology to the Chinese is not in our interest.

But I guess if this was oh Northern Ireland you would not care about the faith of the people involved, but with Israel you suddenly do?

As I said, one of these days American Jews are going to wake up to a new reality, where they are unwanted and blamed for all problems partly parts to the media, since the word Jew and Zionist precedes Neo Con so the connection has been made... what is next, taking away citizenship and throwing away all these undesirables many of whom have fought and even died so you can say this... not unlike Germany in the early 1930s, the parallels are just astounding, at multiple levels...

Oh and for the recrod I am a critique of the current Israeli policies which are very wrong. I also hate the Neo Cons, but not because they are Jewish... I can make that distinction

[H2O Man]

85. Actually

many discussions on the conflict in Northern Ireland do include examining the religious issue. And that's not a bad thing in and of itself. However, the violence is not entirely based upon religion; in the larger sense, it has to do with who will control the economy of Northern Ireland. The break-down, however, is along religious lines.

[Must_B_Free]

90. any state that declares a bloodright to nationality

a nationalistic theocracy.

there is no concept of bloodright in christianity, nor does vatican city declare that any catholic is a defacto citizen of that nation. that is what upsets the rabbis of jewsnotzionists - religion, nationalism and culture are less dangerous in distinct forms.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

124. There is no bloodright in judaism either

Anybody can become Jewish...

If I am wrong please disabuse me of that notion...

[Coastie for Truth]

128. You may be referring to the "Law of Return"

I would recommend a good read of such subjects as the Voyage of the Steam Ship Saint Louis, and maybe such FDR luminaries as Breckenridge Long.

No country took any "asylum seekers" (ok, Senbo Sugihara the Japanese Consul in Poland) from the Nazi Holocaust machine.

I put "asylum seekers" in quotation marks because it is a defined term in "International Humanitarian Law" - check it out on the American Red Cross web site or the International Commission of the Red Cross/Red Crescent web site.

The "Law of Return" was a specific response to the closing of the Gates world wide to the asylum seekers ---- in clear violation of "International Humanitarian Law".

I will not go any further - it sinks in better if you do your own research.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

132. Even With The Law Of Return...

Let me see if I understand the Law Of Return...

It declares that any Jew can emigrate to Israel...

Since anybody can become a Jew anybody can emigrate to Israel.....

Am I missing something?

[Coastie for Truth]

133. Welcome Aboard - We'd Be Glad to Have You

Like our neighbors, the Unitarians, we do NOT Proselytize (used to be a death penalty offense in Christian and Muslim cultures). But, we welcome with open arms and an open heart.

Some points -
1. Israel grants "asylum" - with much less craziness then the US or the UK. (Even Bosnians and Kosovars - Muslims - received asylum). Asylum is defined in "International Humanitarian law" on the Red Cross and International Commission of the Red Cross/Red Crescent web site. Don't conflate "citizenship" with "asylum." Americans, especially politicians, conflate the two.

2. Citizenship - under the Law of Return vice Naturalization - may be open to collateral attack. But no deportation, just more bureaucratic red tape. Please don't dig up URL's about "Jews" who converted to Christianity and were denied "citizenship" under the "Law of Return" -- they were not deported -- just put on the naturalization track.

3. Citizenship Under The Law oif Return carries some "Welfare" (Social Service or Safety Net) Benefits.

[Copperred]

98. I don't care about Israel, Ireland.....the Jews..or the Catholics

It does not help one's argument to accuse others of things they have not said.

The U.S. and Israel's interest in Iraq have rarely coincided relative to Iraq, not before the invasion, and not now.

Before we invaded Iraq, the U.S. had no objective interest or advantage to gain in invading Iraq, as can be clearly seen today. Iraq was no immediate threat to the U.S. Israel at the same time acutely viewed the Saddam regime as an on-going NST.

By the U.S. invading Iraq, Israel is now one less a significant nation-state foe thanks to America, and America has gained who knows how many more radical Islamists as its enemy and further alienated many nation states around the world who would in more ordinary times follow our lead. Further on a relative basis relative to terrorist cells that may target either country, Israel is much better equipped as a small controlled state to protect itself from such criminals. The U.S. is a large country with many borders and a great tradition of maintaining an open culture.

As to today, right wing Israelies and those whom support them want a civil war in Baghdad, a Kurdish state (talk to the Turks about this and why they have been chilling relations with Israel), etc. They do not, at this time, want a peaceful cohesive democratic Iraq. A peaceful democratic Iraq at this stage will be allied not with the U.S. or Israel, but with Iran.

The U.S., at this time, would like a pro-American cohesive peaceful Iraq for obvious reasons. I'll concede, like Israel, the U.S. does not want a democratic Iraq either, but you will not hear this or any U.S. administration offer the truth on that.

If the context was Ireland, and there were a bunch of ardent Americans trying to get the U.S. to take over Britain to relieve them of their fears that Britain was some great threat to Ireland and it turned out these Americans all belonged to a special interest group that is **the common denominator** as to why they are supporting this Irish motivated movement...that would be very important and open for discussion. The issue is not faith - as much as some wish it were - but allegiance to a foreign nation state.

[geek tragedy]

101. Do you think we would have wasted one American soldier's life on

Iraq if there wasn't oil at stake?

[Copperred]

102. HOW MUCH OIL WAS THERE IN LEBANON?

We love buying oil from oppressive dicators who keep their people down and their oil cheap....in Houston you can be sure there is many an oilman who actually miss Saddam.

[barb162]

135. Actually we just like buying oil from anyone who has it, just like

any other country, such as China, Japan, etc

[Coastie for Truth]

110. In point of fact

we were training an Oil Field Strike Force in the 1980's.

[Swamp Rat]

89. What about Opus Dei in SCOTUS?

[Coastie for Truth]

109. And we say we are protecting the interest of the

American Motorists and the American Auto Worker --- KMA.

We are protecting Big Oil and the totally failed managements of Junk Bond Rated Fiord and Junk Bond Rates GM.

[Must_B_Free]

88. here comes the ghost of vetwife

if you we're in the military, your opinion doesn't count, right?

take the chip off your shoulder, hon

[Colorado Blue]

120. Pray tell - WHAT is a "Zionist problem"? Do you mean

a Jewish problem????? Or do you think we should simply abandon the people of Israel? Or WHAT?

This has a sadly familiar ring to it. One can't help but equate that phrase to similar comments made in the '30's, just before the shit hit the fan.

In any case I fail to see the reason for the intense focus on Israel, considering all the REAL problems in the world, unless it comes down to sheer bigotry.

[Drewskie]

79. Brando

Marlon Brando said that the jews control hollywood.

[Jim Sagle]

115. He was a senile old Nazi by that point.

[Jim Sagle]

114. Quentin Tarantino is Jewish? Who knew?

[European Socialist]

8. True, But Bush could have stopped short of invasion.

[Ian David]

11. Everyone will be blamed except Bush and the Saudis.

[Junkdrawer]

24. ..what was in those 28 pages excluded from the Senate 9/11report...

:shrug:

[bpilgrim]

41. the saudis get away with everything cause they got our precious fluids

http://media.globalfreepress.com

peace

[Coastie for Truth]

111. Now you're finally getting it. N/T

[bpilgrim]

29. it is amazing how the Saudis get away with so much

considering how much is known about them supporting extremist :argh:

peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. yep it is amazing

[Coastie for Truth]

112. Again, Now you're finally getting it. N/T

[TahitiNut]

16. Insane.

Ascription of corruption and criminality to whatever nominal religion the criminal claims they 'belong' is nuts, and I don't particularly care whether that religion is Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. Wolfowitz, Perle, and Kristol are no more the spokespersons for Judaism than Mickey Mouse is the spokesrodent for mice. That Osama bin Laden claims some specious rationale based in Islam for the crimes he perpetrates is as irrational as Chimperor Disgustsus claiming he's God's choice for President.

Anybody can call themselves anything. Why do people choose to invest any credibility in the 'faith' a demonstrated LIAR and murderer claims when these people have demonstrated themselves to adhere not at all to truth and honesty?

There is no more truth in Smirk's claim to be a Christian than there is in his claim there were WMDs in Iraq.

There is no more truth in any claims that Wolfowitz, Perle, and Kristol are acting as Jews than there was in their claims that "Pax Americana" is a legitimate objective.

This is the absolute worst of the "kill the messenger" insanity ... the "kill the religion" idiocy.

[knowbody0]

33. why is discussion of the I/P conflict taboo on this board?

is there a collective opinion? It really rips my sack that we cannot have dialog on this subject.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. I have postd some general discusions and they

are movied over there, becuae the mods seem unable to have this discusion in the GD board

[TahitiNut]

54. If you read the DU Rules, you'll know why.

I/P discussions are quarantined to the I/P forum. There's a damned good reason for it, too. just like there's a damned good reason that forum has the most patient (like Job), balanced, experienced, and fair-minded moderators (imho).

[TahitiNut]

42. It's NOT 'taboo'. Such discussions have a dedicated forum.

Go forth and multiply. :evilgrin:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=124

[H2O Man]

18. If we look at

Condi Rice and Colin Powell's role in the military aggression in the Bush administration, it doesn't mean we hate black people. If we look at Wolfowitz and Perle, we can judge them by their actions, in exactly the same way we judge Condi and Colin by their actions.

[TahitiNut]

32. Exactly.

It's a lot like the crap I even see here on DU that "it's because they're men." Bullshit. Wrong is wrong. Corruption and criminality are their own categories and cross all other demographics.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

125. Colin Powell Was An Unwilling Participant

But your larger point stands....

[H2O Man]

126. Simply not true.

Colin Powell served in the Bush administration willingly. There is simply no evidence that he was there by force. In absolutely no sense was Colin an "unwilling participant."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

134. Can We Say That He Was A Reluctant Participant?

Maybe the fact that he was a reluctant participant reveals more about his character....

Support for the invasion and the subsequent ill fated occupation certainly seems out of character for him...

My point was that Colin Powell was an "executioner" of this plan and not an istigator as opposed to folks like Rice, Cheney and Rumsfeld...

[H2O Man]

153. I think that is accurate. n/t

[whistle]

19. Neoconservatism in the U.S.....

<snip>
Neoconservatism as a "Jewish" movement
One of the most controversial issues surrounding neoconservatism is its alleged relation to specifically Jewish intellectual traditions; in the most extreme form of this view, neoconservatism has been regarded by some as primarily a movement to advance Jewish interests. Classic anti-Semitic tropes have often been used when elaborating this view, such as the idea that Jews achieve influence through the intellectual domination of national leaders. David Brooks in his January 6, 2004 New York Times column wrote, "To hear these people describe it, PNAC is sort of a Yiddish Trilateral Commission, the nexus of the sprawling neocon tentacles."

The controversial evolutionary psychologist Kevin B. MacDonald alleges that neoconservatism "is an excellent illustration of the key traits behind the success of Jewish activism: ethnocentrism, intelligence and wealth, psychological intensity, and aggressiveness"<14>, that neoconservatism fits into a general pattern of twentieth-century Jewish intellectual and political activism, and that Leo Strauss is a central figure in the neoconservative movement and "the quintessential rabbinical guru with devoted disciples". <15> Further, he contends that like Freudian psychoanalysis and Marxism, neoconservatism uses arguments that appeal to non-Jews, rather than appealing explicitly to Jewish interests, and that non-Jewish neoconservatives like Jeanne Kirkpatrick and Donald Rumsfeld represent recruitment to an ideology with a Jewish core and an intense commitment to Jewish interests. Of this recruitment, he writes, "it makes excellent psychological sense to have the spokespeople for any movement resemble the people they are trying to convince."<16> MacDonald's views of neoconservatism are not widely accepted in the United States, though similar theories have found a more receptive audience in some Arab media, such as Al Jazeera. His views have been characterized as anti-Semitic and have been condemned as "nauseating" by some, including the writer Judith Shulevitz. (For wider discussion, see Kevin B. MacDonald)

Michael Lind, a self-described former neoconservative, wrote in 2004, "It is true, and unfortunate, that some journalists tend to use 'neoconservative' to refer only to Jewish neoconservatives, a practice that forces them to invent categories like 'nationalist conservative' or 'Western conservative' for Rumsfeld and Cheney. But neoconservatism is an ideology, like paleoconservatism and libertarianism, and Rumsfeld and Dick and Lynne Cheney are full-fledged neocons, as distinct from paleocons or libertarians, even though they are not Jewish and were never liberals or leftists." <17>

Lind argues that, while "there were, and are, very few Northeastern WASP mandarins in the neoconservative movement", its origins are not specifically Jewish. "...eoconservatism recruited from diverse 'farm teams,' including liberal Catholics (William Bennett and Michael Novak..) and populists, socialists and New Deal liberals in the South and Southwest (the pool from which Jeane Kirkpatrick, James Woolsey and I were drawn)." <18>

<more>
<snip> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_(United_States)

[FormerRepublican]

63. Ugh - I think this is the end of enough on this subject ...

Having been a Republican, working in the party in Texas, just a short reach away from Bush, Rove, et al - this is nothing more than complete HOGWASH!!!

The Jewish representation in the Republican Party is nearly nil. There are conservative Jews, but they are FAR outnumbered by liberals.

I used to associate with a lot of neocons, but they weren't Jewish.

Jeez, Louise. Please educate yourselves.

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp509.htm

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Correct

[Colorado Blue]

121. THANK YOU. nt

[Coastie for Truth]

130. Is this part of the stealth campaign for Jeb?

<>

Keep it up -- we'll have a Third Bush --- as if two Bushes weren't enough to destroy the US.

[Ignoramus]

20. Quack quack

I do know that there are actually some actual anti-jewish people in the world, aside from the obvious neo-nazis etc. But, I've only seen it once. I think it's extremely rare.

What I mean is, people who like actually formulate an anti-jewish position, as opposed to people who mutter offensive comments out of being ignorant.

On the other hand, it is a steady drone, accusing any criticism of Israel's policies of being "anti-semitic" (meaning anti-jewish).

[bpilgrim]

43. duck

On the other hand, it is a steady drone, accusing any criticism of Israel's policies of being "anti-semitic" (meaning anti-jewish).

we are lucky to have this board, with a paper trail, that lets us shoot down this popular straw-man.

peace

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gabi Hayes]

27. you're right....JINSA, anyone? lookit these names

Regarding JINSA, Vest writes:


Founded in 1976 by neoconservatives concerned that the United States might not be able to provide Israel with adequate military supplies in the event of another Arab-Israeli war, over the past twenty-five years JINSA has gone from a loose-knit proto-group to a $1.4-million-a-year operation with a formidable array of Washington power players on its rolls.

Until the beginning of the current Bush administration, JINSA's board of advisors included such heavy hitters as Cheney, John Bolton (now Under Secretary of State for Arms Control) and Douglas J. Feith, the third-highest-ranking executive in the Pentagon. Both Perle and former Director of Central Intelligence James Woolsey, two of the loudest voices in the attack-Iraq chorus, are still on the board, as are such Reagan-era relics as Jeane Kirkpatrick, Eugene Rostow, and Ledeen — Oliver North's Iran/contra liaison with the Israelis. <17>
http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/snieg_conc2.htm

this article is worth a looksee

[geek tragedy]

62. Wow, an article by an anti-semite posted at a White Supremacist website!

I'm very impressed!

:sarcasm:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

92. Jason Vest is a writer for the Washinton Post and the Nation

He is not an anti-semite, although the site linked may be an anti-semitic site.

Just clearing that up for the record

[geek tragedy]

96. I was referring to the site he linked to and the author whose piece

he links to.

The site is run by Neo-Confederates and regularly publishes works by White Supremacists.

The author writes about two subjects:

1) How Israel is to blame for just about everything; and

2) Jews

He gives a glowing review to a Jew-baiting book written by the loathsome Kevin McDonald.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

97. Got it..I was just clarifying that Jason Vest (while used as a reference

in that article) is not a white supremacist nor anti-semitic

[geek tragedy]

100. Point received. eom

[JohnyCanuck]

35. The spies who pushed for war

The spies who pushed for war

Julian Borger reports on the shadow rightwing intelligence network set up in Washington to second-guess the CIA and deliver a justification for toppling Saddam Hussein by force

Thursday July 17, 2003
The Guardian

<snip>

The OSP was an open and largely unfiltered conduit to the White House not only for the Iraqi opposition. It also forged close ties to a parallel, ad hoc intelligence operation inside Ariel Sharon's office in Israel specifically to bypass Mossad and provide the Bush administration with more alarmist reports on Saddam's Iraq than Mossad was prepared to authorise.

"None of the Israelis who came were cleared into the Pentagon through normal channels," said one source familiar with the visits. Instead, they were waved in on Mr Feith's authority without having to fill in the usual forms.

The exchange of information continued a long-standing relationship Mr Feith and other Washington neo-conservatives had with Israel's Likud party.

In 1996, he and Richard Perle - now an influential Pentagon figure - served as advisers to the then Likud leader, Binyamin Netanyahu. In a policy paper they wrote, entitled A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm, the two advisers said that Saddam would have to be destroyed, and Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iran would have to be overthrown or destabilised, for Israel to be truly safe.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,999737,00.html

[lateo]

23. Not all Jews are evil...

Just as not all Xians are evil...

[Colorado Blue]

145. Gee thanks:)

[dave29]

50. I am Jewish, intellectual

and completely mortified by sweeping generalizations like this.

[bpilgrim]

55. Imagine how muslims feel

I am mortified whenever a group is singled out based on their religion.

turn on talk radio for 15 minutes it's sick and all the hate is about muslims.

:scared:

peace

[FormerRepublican]

57. I'm sorry, but this whole thread disturbs me...

There seems to be a knee jerk reaction to automatically blame Jews whenever something crooked happens. I'm not Jewish, but I know a few. Are there whacked out Jews who do crooked things? Yes. It's also clearly obvious that there are whacked out Americans who like to do crooked things, and a bunch of them are sitting in the White House right now! I'm not about to start hating and blaming Americans as a whole because of it!

I don't know what's behind the AIPAC thing, but with BushCo involved, I'd bet that there's more to it than meets the eye. Do I believe that Israel could spy on the US, and even manipulate our politics if it were to their advantage? H*ll yes, we do the same thing all the time! Does that mean they're evil, not our allies, and can't be trusted? Please. That's like saying we can't do business with Europe because they didn't follow the party line and dump troops into Iraq!

What the Jew bashing, AIPAC crowing threads look like to me is thinly veiled anti-Semitism, and despite being a non-Jew, I resent that. We, as a nation, are better than that. We, as a party, are better than that.

Let's leave racism, anti-semitism, gay bashing, woman hating, and all those other nasties to the past, please.

[bpilgrim]

60. "a knee jerk reaction to automatically blame Jews" - doesn't happen here

or on the M$M however if you were talking about muslims I would say you were right and it is sick :puke:

peace

[FormerRepublican]

67. From the looks of this thread, I'd say you're dead wrong.

And just as a matter of balance, I strongly defended muslims when posting on Free Republic (before they banned me - heh).

Having personally witnessed both, I'd say it's a draw as to who gets clobbered more.

[bpilgrim]

70. show me a link where someone is 'blamming the jews'?

doesn't happen on DU unless it's a troll and it gets deleted asap.

and as someone who is a news junkie i can tell you it is the muslims who get bashed openly all the time.

peace

[H2O Man]

127. A day later ....

and still no link.

[barb162]

138. I think what happens is Israel gets automatically blamed

for a lot of things which are completely beyond comprehension, beyond all logic and then by association, Jews. Jew bashing and anti-semitism have been going on for centuries and I believe it is recently again on the rise bigtme, not that it has ever disappeared. Thus I was glad the Pope visited a synagogue in Germany last week. Very small token of friendship but at least it was something. Since it is not PC anymore to openly say "I hate Jews" any more than it is PC to say "I hate niggers" I think the Jew haters disguise it with the code word Israel. There's no point going through the discussion of well not all of Israel's population is Jewish as we all know that. Israel is an extremely convenient and unstated scapegoat for Jew haters around the world. Can I come up with a link? I am way too lazy to look right now. But I think attitudes get disguised pretty well. As an example, I would give the Hamas leaders shooting off their mouths the last week or so about continuing their armed struggle against Israel (IMHO, the translation would be: those dirty Jews) and there wasn't exactly much outrage here though I certainly didn't check every thread every day . Now assume you or I took one of the same Hamas speeches, changed the speaker to an Israeli and changed the object of the talk to Syria, Palestinians,Iran, who cares which one, and see how many posts, flames, alerts, etc., would result? Now I am not looking for an argument although a quiet discussion wpould be okay. What I often do to see if there is discrimination or anti-something going on is to reverse the talkers. Really, think if Sharon had made the Hamas speech urging his followers to continuing the armed violence. I think the number of posts would be in the thousands condemning the Israeli. Why didn't that happen with the Hamas speaker? W hy do you suppose there was such a lack of response about the Hamas speaker.

[Coastie for Truth]

140. What "the powers that be" don't want you to hear - We have been "Roved"

INNOCENT DUPES OF KARL ROVE - HIS 2008 WEDGE ISSUE IS GOING TO BE HOW "GOOD AMERICANS" WERE STABBED IN THE BACK BY "THE JEWS"
You think I'm kidding
-He made Max Cleland's heroism a wedge issue and a winner for Saxbe Chamblis
-He made Kerry's Purple Hearts evidence of self inflicted wounds
-He made McCain's heroism evidence of mental illness
-Paul O'Neill
-Valerie Plame
-Wilson
-Clarke
-Paul Hackett's service was just resume padding, and he was only a REMF civil affairs officer

1. XENOPHOBIA, Racism, anti-Arabism, Anti-Semitism is "in the human genome" - even good, liberals from the ACLU and the Unitarian Church and the Quaker Church -- still have a hint of XENOPHOBIA - it's part of our baggage from our hunter-gatherer ancestors.

2. Karl Rove is going to use "the Jews/Zionists/Israelis/PNAC/Neocons dragged us into Iraq -- and Iran, not us good boy white Texas Old Boys" in 2008 -- and anybody in the nominee 's staff who even has a Jewish grand parent will be "The Target".

3. Rove is setting out the scape goats for the certain failure of the Neo-Con agenda - the Carlyle - Big Oil - Big Three - Rumsfield - Cheney Agenda. Before Bush-Cheney-Rove

a. Who ever heard of the Deputy Secretary of Defense - that job was usually a techie who bought techie things for DOD -- not Paul Wolfovitz.

b. Who ever heard of the Defense Policy Board - always old retired politicians and big contributors - not Richard Perle.

c. Who ever heard of the Vice President's Chief of Staff - usually a capital hill insider - not Scooter Libby.

and on and on and on.

But - these are "high visibility" scape goats for previously invisible jobs.

4. Rove will go over the top in anti-Semitic campaign to blame "Anti-Christians" for teaching evolution, pushing stem cell research, advocating choice. advancing GLBT rights, stabbing Bush in the back on Iraq, Peak Oil, etc. Just like Reagan and Nixon did with African Americans and with "Welfare Queens Who Drive Cadillacs to the Welfare Office..."

5. We are being set up for 2008 - Rove's 2008 campaign will be right out of Mein Kampf.

5. And good people have been turned into sheeple and lemmings by Rove's manipulation of the MSM.

Take the gist and gravamen of these appends in this thread -- mix with Rovian evil - and the sound byte MSM -- and what do you have?

Don't Blame me - I warned you.

[barb162]

150. Hi Coastie

That is an incredibly frightening scenario, but nothing would surprise me about this administration and Rove. Rove and his gang make "1984" look like a children's book. Their ability to twist facts and lie has no bounds as you demonstrated so well in the box at the top of your post. They will have to blame someone or some group(s) for the messes they are making in this country and the world. The alternative is the current strategy, the delusional denial that things are going just fine, which they have also been very successful in espousing. Whichever they choose to do, enough people buy into it to keep them in power! Primal scream. I hope like hell they choose not to Jew or Israel bait through "anti-Christianity" political strategies. This can get terribly bad as I think the anti-Jewish undercurrents are there, in place, just subsurface.


By the way I had meant to ask you about something you had written on another thread on this forum in the last few days. It was about oil and some well-known Peak Oil writers and how the Arabs wouldn't be important or something along that line ...I can't quite remember right now (grrr)and I will have to find it again. It seemed as we are passing the Peak the oil countries would become increasingly and eventually all-important and I was wondering if I was completely missing the point you were making.

[Colorado Blue]

146. I find the fact that speeches and rants by Hamas and other

extremist groups, and indeed their violent actions, actually find support and that is even more distressing.

A thread a few months ago, which focused on the topic of antisemitism disguised as or associated with antiIsraelism, led me to reams of evidence of rising bigotry and violence against Jews around the world. Unfortunately, very little comment arose from the links I provided to the evidence. I would have expected outrage but instead, got silence.

Personally I think that's appalling.

[barb162]

152. "...expected outrage but instead, got silence"

I interpret that silence to effectively mean "so what, who cares, good for 'em." It's an extremely bad sign, one of way too many.

[Colorado Blue]

170. My in-laws came of age in Hitler's Germany and they feel

uncomfortable recently...

[H2O Man]

154. This ignores the question asked.

Which specific threads on DU fit that description?

[barb162]

161. you have to be more specific as I think the

thread has moved away from the specific OP topic on blame for Iraq to blaming Israel to the next US election.

If you were inquiring about what I posted I would suggest these:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=98176&mesg_id=98176

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=98734&mesg_id=98756

[Violet_Crumble]

167. My thread was an example of Israel hating??

Newsflash for you: legitimate criticism of Israels policies or discussion of what will happen in a post-disengagement Gaza, is not Israel-hating by any means.

[barb162]

173. I prefer getting newsflashes

from competent, independent and intelligent news media of my choice

[Violet_Crumble]

174. And they'll all tell you the same thing as I just did..

Learn from it...

[barb162]

177. The second best joke I have read today

The best I won't share.

No, I think will get my news from journalists and media of my choice as stated in my earlier post.

[Violet_Crumble]

179. Okay, so you do see any criticism of Israel as 'hating Israel'

It shouldn't take a brain much larger than a gnats to work out that what I said about legitimate criticism of Israel not equating to hating Israel is true. Most of us don't need to use the media of our choice when it comes to plain common-sense, but if you do, then who am I to stop you from doing whateverthehell it is you think yr doing in this forum...



Violet...

[barb162]

181. As I stated earlier, I prefer getting news from

independent, etc., media and journalists of my choice. If that is a problem of some sort for you, that's too bad.

As to your "who am I to stop you from doing whateverthehell it is you think yr doing in this forum..." all that comment warrants is:
same to you.

[Violet_Crumble]

182. This is where I bail out...

Go back. Read post 79. Reply with something that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that it's sheer common-sense that legitimate criticism of Israel like my thread that you tried to use as an example does not equal hating Israel. Then pretend I actually wasted my time yet again bothering to reply and explain the blatantly obvious yet again, and hit that reply button and repeat the same thing yet again. Repeat and gargle. Have fun or whatever it is you think yr doing...

[barb162]

183. And good day to you too

[barb162]

163. I think this thread is pretty interesting from the standpoint

of few responses about a Palestinian calling for continuing violence. Would there be so few responses if Sharon had said these words


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=98245&mesg_id=98245

[Jim Sagle]

137. This thread proves otherwise. Please admit the plain truth.

[Colorado Blue]

147. Respectfully, are you serious? There are very few posts if

any on DU blaming Muslims for anything including terrorism - indeed, following the London bombings people were all over - guess who - ISRAEL.

That's BIGOTRY, it's antisemitic, full stop.

Having said that it's equally wrong to express bigotry against Muslims and they are in fact receiving a lot of heat due to the actions of a few.

If you can see that that is occurring, then why can't you see the corrolary, that all these Jewish conspiracy threads, blaming Israel for ARAB misdeeds, for US foreign and industrial policy, and for the Bush Administration, is also wrong?

[barb162]

156. One of the many disturbing things I notice is

on the blame game, and I have written on this before... and it is to blame a terrorist's actions on the US or Israel. The Israeli (ex-soldier?)who killed a few people on a bus about two weeks ago got blamed for his actions. That is appropriate. Now, take a Palestinian who straps explosives on his/her body and kills the same number of innocent Israelis or Arabs or whoever else is standing nearby and (wait, suspend all belief, facts and logic) it is not his fault. He is not to blame. His purposeful actions of strapping the explosives to his body (AGAIN SUSPEND ALL UPPER BRAIN FUNCTIONS) magically and always is the fault of the US and Israel. Well you may as well blame it on China or Siberians too, but don't EVER blame the terrorist who wants to commit premeditated murder and then proceeds to commit it. When a Palestinian or Saudi or Israeli commits a crime, guess what, it's their crime. That crime should never, ever be deflected to another person or country. That's like listening to that ol' "the devil made me do it" horseshit. Can you imagine if I would blame the Israeli man's actions (who killed those people on the bus) on Palestinians. But that kind of deflective thinking goes on fairly frequently on these boards.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

159. Order; don't post Jeb's photo again. I can't look!!!!!

I'm screaming. Not another Bush.

Will the Progressives be shooting inward on the circle (at themselves) or be shooting outward at the Rove crew. Rove and other GOP strategists are geniuses at getting voters to vote against their interests.

[Coastie for Truth]

160. Rove has subliminally (or subliminably) programmed them

to shoot at ourselves.

That's the Rovian "Divide and Conquer" plan - make the Progressives go over the top as we attack each other.

[Colorado Blue]

169. Indeed, and I find it deeply upsetting...

and also very hard to understand, especially among people who are supposed to represent the progressive.

We believe in human rights; we must also believe in human RESPONSIBILITY. No democracy can function if people aren't willing to accept the fact that "freedom" MEANS individual responsibility. And it isn't OK to glory in democracy at home and advocate terror abroad, either. I think that SUCKS.

As far as the constant blaming of Israel and/or Diaspora Jews for this, that and the other thing - it's been reflex action for 2,000 years but to see it among liberals is very distressing.

Ideas?

[Colorado Blue]

149. Unfortunately threads like this are distressingly common

here.

I joined DU because I was upset about Bush, about the damage being done to the environment, women's rights, gay rights, the war, etc, and found myself spending hours and hours every day just dealing with this issue.

It's a serious problem and I have no doubt Republicans are quite gleefully figuring out how they can get some votes by exploiting this phenomenon.

[barb162]

158. I agree with you.

I never really went over to the IP forum so I didn't know what was going on in it. Silly me, I had assumed most people would take an analytical instead of prejudicial view coming to the board. Was I ever wrong. But I have seen the same lack of critical analysis on many issues here. All that catholic bashing going on when the pope died and then the new pope came in,geez, there were hundreds of threads catholic or pope bashing, and it weirded me out bigtime. Also the anti- US military stuff (you know, the Iraq babykillers) comes out loud and clear. I have told certain posters that if US soldiers are watching these boards, watching these attacks on them, the military people wouldn't be voting democratic. Same thing with catholics sitting on the fence, if they saw the anti-catholic stuff spewing out of the keyboards and that got around, Democrats would lose the catholic votes too. I think a lot of the more moderate liberals, if I may make up that phrase, have left these boards. Some of the posters cannot figure out that if the freepers are monitoring these boards, and they are, that all they have to do is send some of the anti-catholic, anti-military, anti- whatever else stuff on these boards out to the public and the Democrats will unlikely win an election again.

Or let me put it another way, simplistically, but here it is in any case: John Q. Public can figure out a suicide bomber pulled the cord and that it was his responsibility. Mr. JQ Public looks at some of these boards and finds out the US made that poor little innocent terrorist pull that bomb cord on that suicide vest. It's America's fault. Everything is America's fault. Will Mr. JQP agree with something that defies reality? NOT! He'll go over to the freeper boards where they are trashing terrorists bigtime. And at the 2006 elections when the GOP probably wins again, some DUers will be scratching their heads on why the Democratic Party didn't get the Catholic vote, the military vote.... Some DUers will be positively flummoxed about the outcome of the next election.

[Colorado Blue]

168. Some of this is coming from overseas, especially on I/P.

Nevertheless it will affect US politics in the way you describe; I'm quite sure Freepers and others are monitoring these boards. "Normal" people, when I describe what appears here, simply are amazed and actually I find that reassuring. If that weren't the case I think I'd have my suitcase ready. The spectre of religious bigotry becoming mainstream politics in the US is simply horrifying - especially if it were to bear the imprimateur of the LIBERAL party.

I think some of the "poor little terrorist" stuff is not out of line with typical and well-meaning liberal attempts to understand criminals, which we also see in regard to domestic crime. To an extent that may be a GOOD thing - trying to understand root causes, assuming that people are good at heart and only do bad things because they're misunderstood, are oppressed, so forth. But past a certain point it's just excuse making and also seems to fuel the cause of the terrorists: they figure they've got a sympathetic audience so KABOOM. This is certainly the case with the I/P situation. Terror is glamourous, and even holy, in some circles and not only in the Middle East.

If people worldwide were unanimous in their condemnation of terrorism, in the indiscriminate taking of innocent life, it would be far easier to contain. When value judgments are made, stating that SOME terror is bad but if the terror serves your pet cause, then it's ACTIVISM, that's even worse. This definitely occurs when discussing terror in Israel; apparently that's acceptable to certain groups.

I find this appalling. And I'll bet you're right, and that many voters, come 2008, will also. The left had better get it together or we're toast forever. We can't on the one hand trumpet our belief in civil and individual rights and celebrate or excuse terrorism on the other. There's no such thing as SELECTIVE nonviolence and there is no worse offense against civil rights, than terrorism - and when the excuse making is cloaked in an age-old sort of bigotry it's even more offensive.

Thank you for your comments and thank you for listening to my rant:)

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

175. Actually, that's not true...

You try to make it sound like everyone in the I/P forum who you think holds a different view than yrs is defending the actions of terrorists and are feebleminded. But anyone who reads this forum with a rational and clear mind would know that's not the case at all...

The only thing I agree with you on is that there are a few who have a balanced view of the conflict and don't play the Blame Game and can only make conciliatory comments about the other 'side' if they're very careful to tack something good about their 'side' on the end. Kind of sad and pathetic, but that's the way some of those folk operate.

Anyway, as yr able to see that there are indeed balanced viewpoints where people aren't scared to admit when they err, that gives some of you guys something to aim for and model yrselves on :)

Violet...

[eyl]

189. And conversely,

those who can't say anything critical about one side without criticising the other one as well.

[Violet_Crumble]

190. True...

They generally follow the formula of: My side did something bad, but....The other side did something 50 times as bad, so let's talk about that instead!

I think there's areas of the conflict where it's reasonable to criticise one side, but not criticise the other. I can think of incidents in the past where that can be said for both the Palestinians and Israel....

[barb162]

180. Yes, it is true.

"...defend the actions of terrorists as "understandable."

Also known as crap piled on crap.

I do hope you're right about the info getting out. To me, things seem to be getting more polarized and hateful.

[Violet_Crumble]

186. No, it's not...

If it were you'd be able to point to all these posts that defend the actions of terrorists as "understandable", which you can't because they don't exist. I know I'm probably wasting my breath here, but there's a world of difference in trying to *understand* why these things happen and defending what happens. And a timely reminder is in order that making accusations that people in this forum defend terrorism is against the forum rules...

Violet...

[barb162]

191. I don't need any timely reminders

from you. Nor your newsflashes. When I want tips, newsflashes, etc., from you, how about I will let you know.

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

176. President Carter made a speech about a month ago about

terrorists "using" the excuse of Abu Graib and other events for what they do but their actions really are inexcusable. I see it like he does. To me this situation of sympathizing with terrorists is contrasted with something like pedophile priests who got all kinds of condemnation on DU (and I agree totally). Too bad people can't equally and universally condemn terrorists as much as they do the pedophiles. It's as if a person can get rightfully and properly upset about a priest abusing an innocent kid but then that same person does not get upset about a terrorist killing other innocent kids and not only that, excuses the killer's actions by legitimizing the killer's gripes. It is not legitimate. It is utterly unjustifiable. I don't know how someone can talk about defending civil rights and then not get the connection that they are blowing off or excusing premeditated killings of citizens of countries who terrorists are determined to destoy.

Well, we can look at the root causes of pedophilia or serial killers but not many people walk away saying oh that poor pedophile or that poor sociopath. Or that poor BTK killer, his parent must have been terrible to him between the ages of 1-2, when most sociopathic behavior incepts. No, you basically lock them up. The shrinks could have a field day with all these people but in the end, most people don't want terrorists, pedophiles, serial killers and other criminals, etc., around, even when you know they have their excuses for doing what they do. In the end it is not acceptable to go around killing and terrorizing innocent people. The last thing I would ever do is express or feel sympathy for willful murderers.

And yes, on the subject of some terror being acceptable, no way. It should be condemned worldwide and so should the resulting celebrations of people dancing in the streets and shooting off guns for big hits by suicide bombers and terrorists. Quite simply, it's celebrating pathology.

Rant on, friend. You are absolutely right on ALL counts.

[Name removed]

178. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

193. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

195. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

61. Is Bush a Jew? Is King Abdullah? I am a Jew, intellectual (?) and

this is appalling. To blanket all Jews to be responsible for the sin of these sociopaths gets me sick to my stomach. As it turns out, most American Jews are Liberal, and by percent were more against the war in Iraq than most other ethnic/religious groups. Hell! I read that Kerry received about 72% of the Jewish vote, and that doesn't take into account the votes that were probably stolen in Ohio and Florida.

[Fleshdancer]

82. I have more legitimate reasons to hate the people who created this war

New Rule:

If you are lying, cheating and stealing in order start a war which obviously leads to pain, suffering, and death, then you automatically lose the right to claim a religion.

They're not Jewish, they're assholes. There's a BIG difference. Just like there's a BIG difference between Muslims and assholes who fly planes into buildings or Christians and assholes who bomb women's clinics.

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

162. If I say I have been warned, will you quit putting up Jeb's photo

[Coastie for Truth]

164. OK

But don't blame me when Rove and Jeb say that the Big Three (of Junk Bond Status fame) and Big Oil were as innocent as the driven snow, and that Big Oil didn't exploit the Arab proletariat and steal their oil -- it was all AIPAC and PNAC and B'nai B'rith and those Schechter "Madrassas" and those College Hillel "Madrassas."

[barb162]

165. I am making the assumption China, Japan, etc., pay the same

price or thereabouts as the USA does. Therefore every country in the world that buys oil from the Mideast is also "stealing."

[Coastie for Truth]

166. Correct - But they all buy from a small number of "major" oil companies.

And through mergers and acquisitions, the number of majors is shrinking, and the individual majors are getting bigger.

[IndianaGreen]

91. So now the war criminals wrap themselves in Judaism

in order to avoid being accountable. Cockroaches! The truth is that there were many non-Jewish intellectuals, if you can refer to the entire neocon cabal as "intellectuals." Among the PNAC crowd one finds such luminaries as Donald Rumsfeld and Will Marshall, of DLC infamy.

No wonder the latest rightwing meme is to accuse those that call for the neocons' heads of being anti-Semitic. Hey a-holes, stop hiding behind the flag and the tefillin, and come out and take your punishment. We hate you for the neocon a-holes you are, and we hate you whether you are Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, or a what-have-you war criminal for plunging two nations into this ill-conceived war.

[Coastie for Truth]

103. The Murray Friedman model is a little bit wrong.

The "core" of Neocon PNAC doctrine is that hegemoney of oil is THE key to national survival. It is in the PNAC Adobe Acrobat document. Down load it and read it. Don't rely on blogs, chat rooms, talk shown hosts, or journalists. Read the original.

When I was a kid - the mark of a Progressive was that a real Progressive actually read original sources. ;)

The driving force behind out totally failed ME policy is our crack cocaine dependence on Saudi Oil.

We had a wake up call during the Carter years (did you know, Carter ws a graduate degree energey engineer, albeit nuclear energy) - and Reagan ignored it (after all, it was "Morning In America"), and oil man George H. Bush just drew us closer to the House of Saud, and Clinton couldn't fight the American petroleum Institute, the North American Automobile Manufacturers Association, and the UAW, and George W. Bush - forget it.

Our over dependence on the Riyadh Oil Cartel is as disastrous as our dependence on the Cali Drug Cartel - or our wink and nod on the Kabul Heroin Cartel.

What is particularly dangerous about the Riyadh Oil Cartel is that at $67+/bbl, the "monopoly rents" are not going to starving Muslims in Niger (except for mere pennies) or to establishing an entrepreneurial infrastructure in Gaza (once you get past Prince Talal's King Holdings Ltd - that's it from the Riyadh Oil Cartel, and Talal is on the outs with the Riyadh Oil Cartel). The "monopoly rents" are going to Wahabi Madrassas, to terrorists, and the terrorist associated "charities" - but not to Seeds of peace or Kingdom Holdings.

Even worse, the Riyadh Oil Cartel is stealing the mineral birth right of the Saudi proletariat - and spending it on bordellos, race horses, casinos, and "extravagances" - but not on "the people" (Saudi proletariat). That is Marie Antoinette and Czar Nicholas II style thinking. And that is who we support in the ME -- and that is who AlQaida is trying to unseat.

Oil and the Riyadh Oil Cartel constitute our failed PNAC NeoCon ME policy.

The absence of an energy policy beyond "drill, drill, drill" and "tax cut, tax cut, tax cut" and "kiss King Abdullah's butt" is our failed ME policy.

On a relative scale, compared to the Riyadh Oil Cartel (and our support) - israel wouldn't (to use an old Coast Guard expression) make a good pimple on a Bosun's Mate's left butt cheek.

Let's dig deeper--

The Oil Industry Is Behind PNAC and the NeoCons

A Likud-Sharon-AIPAC basis for PNAC has currency in the Progressive Community. But it is just plain wrong, and flies in the face of history and petroleum geology and the business models of mineral exploitation industry ("exploitation" is used in the Karl Marxist sense of the term)

The AIPAC-Israel-Sharon-Likud model is a little bit of an obsolete conspiracy theory. The real backers of the NeoCon Agenda are Big Oil, the armaments makers, and Carlyle. Now that oil is over $65/bbl, and gas is hitting $3.00/gallon, there is a more transparent conspiracy theory.

Who funds the NeoCon think tanks - by and latge the Oil Industry.

If you want conspiracy theories, tie the whole Iraq War into a small group of "Big Money" players with "dogs in the fight" ("big Oil" - "Armaments - Carlyle) - not a bunch of right wing psuedo intellectuals with Straussian PhD dissertations from the University of Chicago or Johns Hopkins University - but real "big money" skinny on the table-

* James A. Baker, III, Consigliere to Big Oil and to the "House of Saud" and to the "House of Bush"

* Lee Raymond, PhD, CEO of Exxon Mobil

* David O'Reilly, PhD, CEO of Texaco Chevron

* Ray Irani, PhD, CEO of Occidental Petroleum

* Lou Gerstner, CEO of Carlyle and former CEO of IBM

* Rick Wagoner, CEO of General Motors

* HRH Prince Bandar ibn Saud, former Saudi Ambassador to the US

Now, let's "connect the dots"

* The US economy needs oil like a junkie needs heroin

* While the rest of the world's auto industry gambled on smaller, lighter, more economical cars - the US "Big Three" gambled (and will apparently lose) on bigger, gas guzzling SUVs and pickups

* There is a synergistic macabre "dance of death" between the "Big Three" and "Big Oil." (Do you remember "leaded gasoline" - our cars couldn't run without it -- a patent holding company and marketing company, Ethyl Corp, owned the patents and the distribution rights. Who "owned" Ethyl Corp? GM, Exxon, and DuPont. Now its a struggling industrial detergent company in St. Louis).

* When "Big Oil" sneezes the "Big Three" get pneumonia - remember the "near death experiences" of the domestic auto makers every time there was an oil cut off or embargo.

* Actually take the time to read "PNAC" - "Program for a New American Century" - (not the blogs - but the whole thing) I don't care what the Bloggers or the Chat Rooms say---


o The primary goal in a "Post Cold War" unipolar world is to maintain a "Pax Americana"

o One goal of the "Pax Americana" is to protect oil - says so in the Adobe Acrobat PDF file itself. Don't take the words of a blogger or appender over the exact words of the Adobe Acrobat PDF file.

o To do this, under the PNAC model, the US must actively assert hegemony over the oil lands (just like post WW I Britain's "Sykes Picot Agreement"

o Israel is an after thought - a secondary or tertiary beneficiary ("Lagniappe" as they say in French - "The Thirteenth Dough nut")

o PNAC is All About OIL and Hegemony Over Oil

o Our society, our prosperity have heretofore depended on cheap oil. This is the assumption of the PNAC document.

o And oil is becoming scarce in absolute terms (it's called "Peak Oil")

o Oil is becoming scarce in relative terms - as India and China compete for a shrinking supply of oil.


* Hence, the need to "project power" to assert hegemony over oil.

Let's analyze the two arguments at the limit

1) "PNAC = Likud" and
2) "PNAC = Big Three + Big Oil" Models".

Ask yourself two questions (this is called "engineering sensitivity analysis" - you push one variable to zero or infinitely and tweak the others)

1) What happens to the original model if you drop Israel and AIPAC out of the picture - but leave "Big Oil" and the "Big Three" in. I would submit - no change in the current situation.

2) Now, what happens if you drop "Big Oil" and the "Big Three" out of the picture - but leave Israel and AIPAC in.

If we suddenly discovered a major (Gulf of Mexico or Persian Gulf or Iraqi or Persian or Saudi level) find of crude in our western desert or Lake Michigan or Minnestoa's "Iron Mines" -- would we be pissing American lives away anywhere "for Israel?" To ask the question shows the absurditiy. AIPAC doesn't have near the power of Big Oil or the Big Three or the UAW's Macomb County "Reagan Democrats."

Ancient History of Petroleum Politics

Do some analytical reading for content - in a book, not a blog or web site (that's supposed to be a Progressive hidden strength):

1) A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order by F. William Engdahl

2) Sowing the Wind: The Seeds of Conflict in the Middle East by John Kay

with a description of the "Sykes-Picot Agreement"

Sykes Picot Agreement

The Sykes-Picot Agreement of May 16, 1916 was a secret understanding between the governments of Britain and France defining their respective spheres of post-World War I influence and control in the Middle East and remains much of the common border between Syria and Iraq.

The agreement was negotiated in November 1915 by the French diplomat Georges-Picot and British Mark Sykes. Picot was far more experienced and managed to get much more than he was expecting for France.

Britain was allocated control of areas roughly comprising Jordan, Iraq and a small area around Haifa. France was allocated control of South-eastern Turkey, Northern Iraq, Syria and Lebanon. The controlling powers were left free to decide on state boundaries within these areas.

The area which subsequently came to be called Palestine was for international administration pending consultations with Russia and other powers. This area, subject to significant subsequent controversy, had the following borders:

* Southern: approximately mid way between Blah and Gaza, eastwards to the Dead Sea in a horizontal line, passing north of Beer sheba and south of He bron.

* Eastern: starting at the Dead Sea in the south it proceeded roughly due north along the river Jordan to Lake Tiberius and a few miles north of the lake.

* Northern: a line approximately west-northwest from the area just north of Lake Tiberius, passing barely south of Taft to met the sea approximately mid way between Haifa and Tyree.

* Western: the Mediterranean Sea.

This agreement is viewed by many as conflicting with the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence of 1915–1916. The conflicting agreements are the result of changing progress during the war, switching in the earlier correspondence from needing Arab help to subsequently trying to enlist the help of Jews in the United States in getting the US to join the First World War, in conjunction with the Balfour Declaration, 1917. The agreement had been made in secret. Sykes was also not affiliated with the Cairo office that had been corresponding with Sheriff Hussein bin Ali, and was not fully aware of what had been promised the Arabs.

The agreement was later expanded to include Italy and Russia. Russia was to receive Armenia and parts of Kurdistan while the Italians would get certain Aegean islands and a sphere of influence around Izmir in southwest Anatolia. The Italian presence in Anatolia as well as the division of the Arab lands was later formalized in the Treaty of Severus in 1920.

The Russian Revolution in 1917 led to Russia being denied its claims in the Ottoman Empire. At the same time Lenin released a copy of the confidential Sykes-Picot Agreement as well as other treaties causing great embarrassment among the allies and growing distrust among the Arabs.

Attempts to resolve the conflict were made at the San REM conference and in the Churchill White Paper of 1922, which stated the British position that Palestine was part of the excluded areas of "Syria lying to the west of the District of Damascus".

The agreement's principal terms were reaffirmed by the inter-Allied San REM conference of 19–26 April 1920 and the ratification of the resulting League of Nations mandates by the Council of the League of Nations on July 24, 1922.

---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes-Picot_Agreement

The Sykes-Picot Agreement - which was by its explicit terms and conditions contrary to the "Balfour Declaration" (blasts another hole in the Murray Friedman theory)

1) Was a product of the need by the UK and France to protect both oil and access - through the Suez Canal - to East Africa, the oil fields of the Middle East, and South Asia.

2) Really provided for a regime of weak warring tribal entities on the Eastern Littoral of the Mediterranean - so that the UK and France would be the "powers" and would not have their hegemony threatened.

Consider - the present hegemonical and mineral exploitive pattern. - The major powers and the mineral exploiters and the House of Saud come out ahead. The Arab Proletariat, the Palestinians, and the Israelis come out on the short end.

Jews will probably take the blame for losing the war in Iraq. This is the conclusion reached by the late Murray Friedman in his latest book, "Jewish Intellectuals and the Shaping of Public Policy."

Friedman argues that Jewish intellectuals comprise the core of the neocon movement, the primary influence behind the invasion of Iraq, and will take the blame if that policy fails.

But who are the Exxon Mobil and GM academic "hired guns" who said--

1. Global warming is junk science - it's not happening.

2. Peak oil is junk science - it's not happening, we have centuries of crude oil

3. Increasing fuel economy will only cause people to drive more, if you go from a car that gets 18 mpg to a car the gets 36 mpg - you will drive three times as much.

The same Exxon Mobil and GM academic "hired guns" who got us into this energy mess.

[TomClash]

113. Misguided fear

If we lose in Iraq, William Kristol will be the least of our worries. And there will be a lot of blame to go around. Plus, Sharon wasn't even lukewarm for the War.

Now if we go into Iran . . .

[DemocratSinceBirth]

123. Sad

What does Kristol's religion have to do with him being one of the proponents of the neocon agenda?

Nothing...


Oh, somebody said that the only way one can become a Jew is by sharing a common ancestry

That's not true...


I can elaborate if you want... A detailed discussion of adult circumcisions and ritual baths...

[Coastie for Truth]

194. Petrodollar Warfare : Oil, Iraq and the Future of the Dollar - Clark

(Amazon Review)

Clark's Thesis - The Iraq War has virtually nothing to do with Israel -- and everything to do with

1. PEAK OIL
2. The Euro supplanting the dollar as the currency of choice for clearing petroleum payments.

The invasion of Iraq may well be remembered as the first oil currency war. Far from being a response to 9/11 terrorism or Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, Petrodollar Warfare argues that the invasion was precipitated by two converging phenomena: the imminent peak in global oil production and the ascendance of the euro currency.

Energy analysts agree that world oil supplies are about to peak, after which there will be a steady decline in supplies of oil. Iraq, possessing the world's second-largest oil reserves, was therefore already a target of US geostrategic interests. Together with the fact that Iraq had switched to paying for oil in euros-rather than US dollars-the Bush administration's unreported aim was to prevent further OPEC momentum in favor of the euro as an alternative oil transaction currency standard.

Meticulously researched, Petrodollar Warfare examines US dollar hegemony and the unsustainable macroeconomics of ‘petrodollar recycling,' pointing out that the issues underlying the Iraq war also apply to geostrategic tensions between the United States and other countries, including the member states of the European Union, Iran, Venezuela and Russia. The author warns that without changing course, the American experiment will end the way all empires end-with military overextension and subsequent economic decline. He recommends the multilateral pursuit of both energy and monetary reforms within a UN framework to create a more balanced global energy and monetary system-thereby reducing the possibility of future oil and oil currency-related warfare.

A sober call for an end to aggressive US unilateralism, Petrodollar Warfare is a unique contribution to the debate about the future global political economy.

[Lithos]

196. Locking

This thread has pretty much gone its full course.