Saying aloud what we were afraid to say 5 years ago.

[Philosoraptor]

More and more people are saying it now, or at least suspecting it without saying it, many people are still afraid to say it aloud. I did, right after nine eleven among a few selected friends, and I quickly discovered that even the most bush hating left leaning people didn't want to hear me say it.

Its just too awful to admit, or suspect, the consequences of believing it or admitting it are dire for the soul and the psyche, but more and more Americans are coming to the conclusion that the official story about nine eleven has a lot of holes in it.

I remember saying it for about a week or two, then I gave it up, and have rarely mentioned my opinion aloud for five years now. I learned that speaking of it would get me ignored or seen in a different light by certain friends. So I almost never mention it anymore.

Sometimes the truth about something is so horrible to accept that the mind simply won't allow it. If someone told you your son had murdered someone, you'd most likely refuse to believe it, even under investigation, and after proven, loving mothers will stay steadfast in their beliefs, and disbeliefs.

I get no satisfaction or vindication from the recent trend to distrust the government version of nine eleven, I wish none of it had ever happened, but it does seem that many people have changed their minds and have started connecting the horrible dots.

Something stinks about the story, and it is being re-investigated by we, the people, not a committee of pols playing CYA.

Now I worry about how the truth, if it ever comes out, will play in the minds of the Americans. It could get real ugly if it were discovered that our own government had something, anything to do with nine eleven and the aftermath, which it looks more and more like every day.

We will never be in complete agreement about it I suppose, like with the JFK murder, but more and more people are increasingly suspicious of our neo con controlled overlords, and if certain sinister facts are ever revealed, this nation will convulse and turn inside out like never before.

[Horse with no Name]

1. and yet we still can't discuss it outside of a particular forum

even though it is now mainstream.:shrug:

[soothsayer]

2. Eh, even if the truth came out, and it was mihop, some would still

blindly support der leader, making excuses for why this was necessary, and that it was only less than 3000 people for chrissakes, etc.

Uh oh, I've lost faith in our ability to DO anything about anything

We're passive sheeple!

[RockHardCore]

3. THERE IS NO 9/11 CONSPIRACY!!!

The guy at this site pretty much explains it best
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

Unlike others who debunk 9/11 conspiracy theories, or "cons" for short, I'm not going to bother with going through intricate point-by-point rebuttals, or pointing out the hundreds of factual inaccuracies and outright lies in this "documentary," because I don't need to. In fact, I can debunk the entire story with one simple observation:


The fact that Dylan Avery is alive...

...is proof that "Loose Change" is bullshit.
Here's why:

1. The man in the picture above is Dylan Avery. To be more precise, the fact that Dylan, his friends, and family are alive, is proof that "Loose Change" is bullshit. He, along with a couple of his friends, created a 9/11 conspiracy video claiming that the US government and the military caused 9/11. Take a closer look at the last part of that last sentence: he's claiming that the US government, for whatever ends, killed nearly 3,000 innocent Americans, and tens if not hundreds of thousands of more lives in the conflicts that ensued because of it.

[Dogmudgeon]

5. Maddox' page?

Funny, yes -- but not particularly well-informed, pro- or anti-.

You don't read Maddox for information. You read Maddox for Maddox.

--p!

[RockHardCore]

9. I'm not saying that Maddox is definitive

But honestly, it is kind of a shark jumping moment to say the administration was on the inside of 9/11. A) Conspiracy theories are almost always total BS. Think about how much work it would take to the conspiracy inside?

For all of the White House's problems that we can pin to them why reach for stuff like this?

I think these kind of rumors could KILL DU's credibility all together.

[Philosoraptor]

10. DU's credibility?

Its either credible or it ain't. we are far more credible than tne neo cons.

[Dhalgren]

12. The point is, why accept any theory without an investigation?

The government has only a theory as to what happened on and around 9/11 - to this date there has been no professional, crinimal investigation into these events. Except for the civilian investigations that have unearthed more questions than answers, no one is even looking at it. There are enough glaring "coincidences" in the official theory, that that alone would cause anyone with a modicum of common sense to suspect that the whole story isn't being told. The problem is not with the "conspiracy theories" (and, oh, by the way, the government's theory is a 'conspiracy theory', too, but that's different, right?), the problem is that we cannot even discuss this subject rationally without hysterical admonitions of credibility, straw-men arguments, and personal attacks. What is so frightening about simply looking into 9/11 in an honest, no subjects taboo sort of way? It makes one feel as though there is something to hide and if there is something to hide, that is a clear signal of conspiracy...

[CJCRANE]

15. Have you read

the official 9/11 Commission Report from cover to cover? The PNAC documents, the Pentagon's last few QDR's?

You may not even know what the official version is. When you do know what's in it then you can go ahead and research what they missed out and where the inaccuracies are.

[fooj]

24. Blah, blah, blah...

:eyes:

[petgoat]

35. "Conspiracy theories are almost always total BS."

Right, criminal defense attorneys use that argument very effectively.

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client is innocent and the prosecutor
is a delusional tinfoil-hat-wearing lunatic. The state claims that my
client with three other people robbed a liquor store. That is impossible!
Four people is a conspiracy! Too complicated! Somebody would have talked!
Conspiracies are the inventions of weak-minded people who are trying to
impose an order on a chaotic universe that is not there! Thank you for
your attention. The defense rests."

Easy money. Works every time.

[Usrename]

56. Or, one can open their eyes and look squarely at the real world.

Eliot Abrams - John Negroponte - John Poindexter - Otto Reich

Weren't all these guys already convicted on conspiracy related charges under a previous Administration in regards to Iran/Contra? Don't they all work for this Administration?

Which would require a larger conspiracy, Iran/Contra which ran for years, or 9/11 which probably was planned for years, but only took a few months to implement?

Compared with Iran/Contra, things are just about on track for unravelling this conspiracy. I just don't think that the public is ready to hear this right now, at least not like they were ready to accept the Iran/Contra story.

I would agree with some of the other posters who think it is more difficult to face the truth than it is to go along with the lies. Even when you know they are lies. Some things are just too difficult to come to grips with. But the country will come to grips with this, I think, soon. It's our only hope, really. These monsters will not stop, they will not police themselves, they don't even know why they should. They are capable of much more than you.

[Sinti]

61. But, you don't understand,all those guys are INCOMPETENT now!

They couldn't find their ass with a GPS-enabled locator. Just look at how they botched up Katrina. :sarcasm:

[TomClash]

6. Why would you kill a peon you can easily discredit?

I'm afraid you'll have to do better than that.

[EFerrari]

7. Well, the alternative is that stone stupid W didn't listen to all the

Clinton people that tried to tell him we were at risk.

Maybe *that's* harder for some people to know.

[Sinti]

62. *, even at POTUS, doesn't have that much power on his own

Just because he's arguably that stupid, doesn't mean they all are. His team is a combo of his father's, Reagan's and Nixon's people. They're old hands. Stupid is no defense here.

[CJCRANE]

13. Sometimes

assassinating people makes it more obvious that they are onto something. Besides "Loose Change" isn't the most credible video IMO, it's fairly hit and miss, although I admire the spirit behind it.

[TahitiNut]

18. It's not whether there was or not, it's how and who.

In the spirit of "not going to bother with going through intricate point-by-point rebuttals" I'll merely make one observation that 'proves' to me that there was complicity in allowing or provoking the events of 9/11.

In September 2000, one full year before 9/11, I posted a prediction to a private (AtHome) newsgroup on the internet. I predicted, feeling certain beyond a reasonable doubt, that we would be in a war in the Middle East before the end of 2001 if Junior were elected. I predicted we'd be in Afghanistan, Iraq (major escalation), Iran, or alongside Israel in a major military conflict with Arab/Muslim forces. I predicted that it would dwarf the 1990-91 "Gulf War" and that it would be precipitated by some major event in which many American lives were lost - an event that would stampede public opinion in support of a military invasion and war!!

It was absolutely clear to me that this was certain. I could not foresee any alternative - no other direction for the path we were on. I posted this prediction. I'm not talking about me recalling some mental musings - I'm talking about foreseeing some event that would allow the prospective Bush43 regime to embroil this country in a Middle East War - and actually posting that prediction in a newsgroup!

When I awoke the morning of 9/11 to see the tower ablaze and the second plane hit, my prediction came true. I was shocked. I was NOT surprised.

I'm as certain that people allied with the Bush43 Regime were, in some way, complicit in allowing or provoking that attack as I am of my name. Disproving or dismissing one or another specific hypothesis or charge (e.g. explosives in the buildings, radio controls, etc.) does not and will not erode my certainty. There's no way in hell I could have foreseen the events if it wasn't a fact that these events were known to be coming and exploited by the reich wing. No way.


Putting it another way ... If I could foresee this, then at a very minimum it's beyond any reasonable doubt to me that members of this cabal also could foresee it. Then, foreseeing it, the question arises a whether steps were taken to prevent it or steps were taken to clear the way and then exploit it for political and monetary gain! We know fucking damned well that no steps were taken to prevent it! That leaves only the alternative. Absolutely everything points to this. There can be no doubt, imho. Non.

[earth mom]

20. Bullshit! Plain and Simple! eom

[goddess40]

22. whether there was or wasn't doesn't matter much any more

What matters is that the republican's have exploited 9/11 for every cent they could.

From day one I felt the Republican elite had something to do with this, more on the look the other way and let the shit fly side then any "active" involvement. But the way this bastards used and abused the American people and the world is disgusting and treasonous. They not only have blood on their hands they are swimming in a pool of it.

[The Witch]

31. That's probably his least salient point.

It's become clear that this government has figured out that they don't have to suppress all speech, just marginalize what they don't like and mainstream what they do, and they can hold on to power. I was just thinking about this today. It's like Bushco finally figured out, "Hey - we can be dictators without suppressing freedom of speech too much. All we have to do is make sure those who tell truth are called 'fringe' until everyone believes it. And when we control the discourse, they might as well NOT be saying this stuff."

That is, killing Avery would probably cause more problems, so let him continue to throw around Loose Change (which, appropriately enough, is a rather loose/scattered video), but just get your corporation-sponsored media figures to roll their eyes at it and the populace will (for the most part) do the same. Avery disappears and the conspiracy nuts have more ammo.

[petgoat]

33. That is a completely bogus argument.

If the fact that Dylan Avery is alive is regarded as proof that
there was no conspiracy, wouldn't any competent conspirators
recruit Dylan Avery, buy him a new laptop, give him beer money,
and then trot him around as proof they don't exist?

[mhatrw]

37. Maddox makes no points worth mentioning.

1) Anyone planning 9/11 would be too smart and competent to be leave clues that lead to doubts.

Since when have neocons done anything competently? They are kings of the ridiculous, bombastic overreach, and they simply try to bluster themselves out of trouble whenever they are found out.

2) Anyone trying to expose the truth about 9/11 would be killed instantly if 9/11 were a conspiracy.

To what purpose? If you aren't convincing many, why go to the trouble? If you are convincing many, won't your suspicious death help convince a lot more?

3) Saying the folding a $20 bill trick proves 9/11 was done by our government is a representative claim of 9/11 official story skeptics.

A complete straw man.

4) No conspiracy as "big" as 9/11 could ever be pulled off because people can't keep a secret.

See history, world. First, the conspiracy would not have to include many -- just a few at the top. Everyone else would be following orders and doing their jobs and wouldn't have enough information to prove anything. Second, how hard is it for the most discreet military and intelligence agents in the world to keep a secret? This same guy would have no problem believing that mobsters can keep secrets about their crimes. They take an omerta and must maintain secrecy under the threat of death. What's the big difference between this and how the CIA and military intelligence organizations are known to operate?

[AntiFascist]

52. Plus there is one simple overriding fact to explain a big conspiracy....

the U.S. economy depends on oil. The oil must flow. How many lives do certain Republicans think that is worth?

[The Straight Story]

That site is pretty cool :) (nt)

[Octafish]

55. Why did Smirk n Sneer REFUSE to testify under oath before 911 Commission?

Crazy Monkey even REFUSED to talk alone. Here's why:

Why would Osama bin Laden want to kill Dubya, his former business partner?

By James Hatfield

Editor's note: In light of last week's horrific events and the Bush administration's reaction to them, we are reprising the following from the last column Jim Hatfield wrote for Online Journal prior to his tragic death on July 18:

July 3, 2001—There may be fireworks in Genoa, Italy, this month, too.

A plot by Saudi master terrorist, Osama bin Laden, to assassinate Dubya during the July 20 economic summit of world leaders, was uncovered after dozens of suspected Islamic militants linked to bin Laden's international terror network were arrested in Frankfurt, Germany, and Milan, Italy, in April.

German intelligence services have stated that bin Laden is covertly financing neo-Nazi skinhead groups throughout Europe to launch another terrorist attack at a high-profile American target—his first since the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen last October.

According to counter-terrorism experts quoted in Germany's largest newspaper, the attack on Dubya might be a James Bond-like aerial strike in the form of remote-controlled airplanes packed with plastic explosives.

SNIP…

In June 1977, Dubya formed his own drilling company, Arbusto Energy ("arbusto" means "bush" in Spanish), in Midland, Texas. Like his father before him, Dubya founded his oil business with the financial backing of investors, including James R. Bath, a Houston businessman whom Dubya apparently first met when they were in the same Texas Air National Guard unit. (Interestingly, both Dubya and Bath were both suspended from flying in August and September 1972, respectively, for "failure to accomplish annual medical examination.")

CONTINUED…

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/Hatfield-R-091901/hatfield-r-091901.html

Some more on the Genoa warnings…

Plot to assassinate Bush – reports

MOSCOW, Russia -- Osama bin Laden has threatened to assassinate U.S. President George W. Bush at a G8 meeting in Italy, the head of Russia's Federal Bodyguard Service has said, according to reports.

The Associated Press said Yevgeny Murov was quoted by Itar-Tass news agency as saying: "Bin Laden is threatening the American president, but we know what international terrorism is today and therefore all the bodyguard units concerned are preparing for this.

"We view the threats as totally serious, but hope that with joint efforts we can solve all the problems."

The Group of Eight summit is meeting between July 20-22 in Genoa, Italy. Leaders from Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia and the United States are expected to attend the summit.

Murov -- Russian President Vladimir Putin's chief bodyguard -- did not elaborate on the threats. He said agents from Russia's Federal Bodyguard Service have travelled to Genoa to coordinate with their counterparts from the other nations taking part in the summit to investigate the threats.

CONTINUED…

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/20/russia.binladen/

Gee. The Little Turd from Crawford was afraid. Of Osama. So, what else is new in July 2001?

Missiles to protect summit leaders

Special report: globalisation

Rory Carroll in Rome
Wednesday July 11, 2001
The Guardian

Italy has installed a missile defence system at Genoa's airport to deter airborne attacks during next week's G8 summit, fuelling hysteria about looming violence.
A land-based battery of rockets with a range of nine miles and an altitude of 5,000 feet has been positioned in the latest security measure against perceived threats from terrorists and protesters.

Unidentified planes, helicopters and balloons risk being shot down should they drift too close to the heads of state from the group of seven leading industrialised nations and Russia.

Colonel Alberto Battaglini, of the ministry of defence, said the precaution was not exces sive. "The measure, which was planned by the previous government, may seem open to criticism, but in reality it is merely to act as a deterrent against any aerial incursion during the summit.

CONTINUED…

http://www.guardian.co.uk/globalisation/story/0,7369,519925,00.html

Gee. What was Boosh so afraid of? He won’t tell us, but it would seem he did tell AG Johnny Ashcan…

Ashcroft Flying High

WASHINGTON, July 26, 2001

Fishing rod in hand, Attorney General John Ashcroft left on a weekend trip to Missouri Thursday afternoon aboard a chartered government jet, reports CBS News Correspondent Jim Stewart.

In response to inquiries from CBS News over why Ashcroft was traveling exclusively by leased jet aircraft instead of commercial airlines, the Justice Department cited what it called a "threat assessment" by the FBI, and said Ashcroft has been advised to travel only by private jet for the remainder of his term.

"There was a threat assessment and there are guidelines. He is acting under the guidelines," an FBI spokesman said. Neither the FBI nor the Justice Department, however, would identify what the threat was, when it was detected or who made it.

A senior official at the CIA said he was unaware of specific threats against any Cabinet member, and Ashcroft himself, in a speech in California, seemed unsure of the nature of the threat.

"I don't do threat assessments myself and I rely on those whose responsibility it is in the law enforcement community, particularly the FBI. And I try to stay within the guidelines that they've suggested I should stay within for those purposes," Ashcroft said.

CONTINUED…

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml

DIM. DRUNK. TRAITOR.

[Kailassa]

63. Do you believe Hitler's story concerning the Reichstag?

Do you believe Russia is innocent of false flag operations blowing up its own people?

Or a some conspiracy theories ok, as long as they don't involve your own leader?

[HughBeaumont]

68. Maddox, like South Park . . .

. . . is a boring joke that got old a few years ago. He makes no salient points and substitutes ad hominems for reason.

[truthmover]

72. Don't get baited. n/t

[Jensen]

4. I said a day after 9-11 and I will keep saying it.......

lost a few friends over it which I do not miss and I STILL say it...This was a inside job!

[OffWithTheirHeads]

17. Me too!

Just watching the look on little lord pissypants face at the Goat reading was enough for me to believe that it was planned. Put that together with the Pearl Harbor PNAC, the fact that the Bush admin didn't want an investigation at all and when they got one anyway, wouldn't testify under oath and the fact that they lie about absolutely EVERYTHING and you have to be blind not to at least suspect that it was an inside job.

[TAPat]

8. When I finally allowed myself to accept

LIHOP/MIHOP - same difference to me - I cried for hours.
It's definitely a terrible thing to wrap your mind around - very painful.

I consider myself to be a strong person, yet it took me 4 years to completely accept what this administration did to us.

[Kailassa]

65. Yes, I'm not American, and it was still devastating,

even for me.

And if you research on the net to learn more about other attacks attributed to
terrorists, you will see why "the powers that be" have worked so long and
cunningly to make "conspiracy-theorist" a dirty word.

:grouphug:

[treestar]

11. I don't believe in MIHOP or LIHOP but in the incompetence and

unconcern of the administration toward the subject.

If Gore had been able to take office and continue with Clinton's methods, then it would not have happened.

The right wing just has its agenda and were so excited to have the presidency and get on with their agenda that they just didn't pay enough attention.

Two of the hijackers were on the terrorist watch list and the INS didn't even pick them up! Too busy protecting our jobs from the Mexicans, I guess.

[mhatrw]

38. So were they just incompetent and unconcerned when they told

everyone the air at Ground Zero was safe?

Finally, what's big the difference to all the thousands who are going to die painful early deaths because of their supposed "incompetence and unconcern"?

[Usrename]

57. As far as I know they never tested the air quality.

That raises some questions. Christine Todd Whitman is being sued over this. Did they not do the air quality tests because of asbestos, or was it because thermite would be detected?

Who knows at this point, but there must have another reason besides "incompetence". Right?

[rman]

59. Air quality was tested alright:

Memo: NY City Hall Divided Over Handling of Post-9/11 Contamination
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/24/207231

...I came across an internal memo from a top official in the Health Department who was in charge of environmental hazards and who was coordinating the city's response to 9/11 on health issues, and also the deputy -- the commissioner of the Department of Environmental Protection, who was actually doing all the testing for asbestos throughout the city; both of them were very concerned about the air quality in Lower Manhattan and, in fact, were overruled by City Hall, by Mayor -- the Giuliani administration, their boss, who wanted to open up more areas around ground zero, because he was under pressure, according to the assistant commissioner, from the business community and building owners to allow more opening of areas around ground zero. So it's clear there was a very sharp debate going on within the Giuliani administration that has never surfaced before with some top health officials saying, “Hey, we've got to be careful. There are real problems with the air quality here.” That's never come forward.

But even more importantly, some of the data of the city's testing, which again has never gotten much attention and in fact the city withheld and is still withholding from public release some of those main tests, showed that in the five days after 9/11, before hundreds of thousands of people were given the all-clear to come back to work, that the city took 38 air tests in Lower Manhattan for asbestos and of those 38 tests, 27 of them, more than 70% of the tests that the city took, showed unsafe levels of asbestos in the air. And yet the city not only took months to post those results, but then when they did on their website, have still not posted the worst results that they got in the first few days. So there's real questions about actual withholding and burying of damaging air safety reports. And yet the public was told everything is okay, it's okay to go back to work in that area.

[Ganja Ninja]

14. Anthrax anyone?

US Army weaponized anthrax from an army lab in Maryland mailed to leading senate Democrats and certain media outlets. Remember? Christ on a cracker! Why do we keep endlessly rehashing all wild theories about 9/11.

I'm just getting a little tired of all the 9/11 conspiracy talk when the anthrax attacks point directly back at the US Government. Anthrax is not something that could be cooked up in somebody's garage or smuggled home and spooned into envelopes. It was a false flag attack all the way and we ought to be demanding answers instead of speculating on why the towers fell or what really happened to WTC #7 or any of the other dozen conspiracy theories about 9/11.

The 9/11 conspiracy theories are a distraction.

[CJCRANE]

16. Good point..nt

[readmoreoften]

44. The Anthrax scare is just proof of gov't complicity. No theories needed.

The anthrax came from our own government--PROOF POSITIVE-- targeted political enemies, and murdered American people. I get personally sick of people who agree that *maybe* the anthrax attacks came from the government but not 9-11. Either your government will conspire to murder you or your government won't. I don't need to theorize: the anthrax came from a gov't lab, the gov't did not provide an adequate scientific explanation for collapse of 3 large steel structures. They are either involved or covering up for those who are. I don't know why, but it's not my job to know why. It's THE INVESTIGATORS job to know why, and they obviously don't.

[earth mom]

19. I don't discuss LIHOP/MIHOP with people either...

though if I did get into a discussion about it, I wouldn't back down and let the naysayers dismiss it like they already have on this thread. Interesting how it's those with low post counts who MUST come on a thread like this and insist that the * administration couldn't possibly have had any thing to do with 9/11 when even the 9/11 commission had questions that they didn't ask! Who benefits, hmm?!

Disinfo has become a real art form...NOT! Because most of us can see right through those who try and dish it out. :eyes:

[Avalux]

21. Here's what bothers me most about 9/11 and subsequent events.

1. There was clearly ineptitude within the Pentagon & FAA on that day as evidenced by the tapes released recently. It is a fact that Rummie and Cheney gave false testimony to cover it up.

2. There was never a true effort immediately following that day to investigate why the towers fell, to thoroughly examine the rubble. No one in our government seemed to care, despite that fact that our country is full of skyscrapers that could undergo the same sort of attack.

3. Bush thwarted any attempt to comprehensively investigate all of the incidents of 9/11 until he was pressured to do so years later. Even then, the investigation was performed by individuals of his choosing and the report is shoddy at best - failing to address many issues.

I am not making a determination one way or the other about the "official story", however - considering these three things that bug the hell out of me, it's not any wonder people have alternative theories.

We already know this government has lied to us, many, many times.

[Philosoraptor]

23. No one was fired, everyone got a medal.

That bothers me, plus the fact that they can't possibly tell the truth about anything.

[fooj]

25. How the hell did these treasonous rat bastards spin

one of the largest attacks on American soil? How did they make it out that they were the "saviors" of the American people? Unfrickingbelievable.

[petgoat]

34. They had complicit corporate media and a cowardly, lazy, and

inept opposition party in the legislature.

[fooj]

39. How sad is that?

:cry:

[dogday]

26. I bet John O'Neill could tell us more about what's going on.....

wait oh yeah, that's right he died in the twin towers...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/

[The Backlash Cometh]

27. Oh, I think we will be in agreement, because more and more are

ready to believe the worst. I mean, the tip off was that this government tried to hush up the victim's survivors with 2-3 million dollars settement money. It wasn't given to them as charity, it was hush money. Red flags that the Bush-led government knew it couldn't take close scrutiny that early in the game.

[truedelphi]

28. I was so unable to determine if it was MIHOP or LIHOP

that I turned to astrology.

It almost always gives me some insight.

Doing the astrology chart for the Date September 11th 2001 and then comparing with the natal chart of the USA (July 4th 1776) I saw immediately that the executive office was in a tremendous "zone
of opportunity" to improve itself in the eyes of the public.

It seems to me that if this attack was not planned by the Administration, there would be astrological indications of it hurting the Adminstration. Instead there were good aspects everywhere that the Chief Eecutive of the Land would benefit from what happened on this day.

What finally convinced me that it was planned by forces inside the Administration was the footage on the Web of Building 7 being "pulled."

Also the fact hat the Nation's Defenses were intent on War GAMES THAT MORNING THAT WERE4 TO SIMULATE WHAT HAPPENED. IN FACT, MYERS SAYS IN HIS TESTIMONY TO THE 9/11 COMMISSION THAT HE SAW A TV screen WHILE WALKING TO A MEETING AND HIS MIND IMMEDIATELY ASSAUGED his worry over the image of a plane hitting a tower that it ws simply one of the many planned war game simulations.

For some reason, the mainstream media never mentions the simulated war games.

[treestar]

29. Here is a crazy thought

Could it have been an accident, arising out of some mishap from the war games?

[FiveGoodMen]

30. Both towers and the Pentagon and another flight as well?

That's one hell of an accident.

And why was Building 7 brought down? With already-wired charges? That had to have been placed before 9-11?

And why was there a hole in the Pentagon wall too small for a passenger jet to fly through and yet no plane parts left outside the building? And why was that hit originally reported as a bomb and not a plane?

[ComerPerro]

32. shit, I said it on 9/11/01, at my birthday party

and everyone told me that the government wouldn't do that.

They aren't so sure now though

[kineneb]

36. you are not the only one

Check out the writings on the subject by Paul Craig Roberts at
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

He is absolutely not your average conspiracy theorist. But like you have observed, something is just not right about the "conclusions" the commissions reached.

[Hailtothechimp]

40. LIHOP and MIHOP are both treason...

And so, to eliminate the distinction, I think of it as SHOP (Shit Happened on Purpose).

Watch any controlled demolition video, and then watch any of the 3 towers collapsing, and it's as plain as the nose on your face.

[FourScore]

41. Philosoraptor,

I understand you so well.

[lectrobyte]

42. I heard this on the radio last week, and nearly drove off the road

I’ll see you next fall
at another gun show
I’ll call the day before, like usual

but I wanted so much more
I got exodus damage bleed,
could not commit, some things I’ll never be

so now we’re talking about this
I’m starting to lose my confidence
no one ever says a word about
so much that happens in the world

dance dance revolution
all we’re gonna get
unless it falls apart
so I say: go go go, go down
let it fall down
I’m ready for the end


so the second plane hit at 9:02
I saw it live on a hotel tv, talking on my cell with you
you said this would happen, and just like that, it did
wrong about the feeling, wrong about the sound
but right to say we would stand down

an hour went by without a fighter in the sky
you said there’s a reason why
so tell me now, I must confess
I’m not sick enough to guess


dance dance revolution
all we’re gonna get
unless it falls apart
so I say: go go go, go down
let it fall down
I’m ready for the end

so you hope that one person
could solve everything
and for me, that’s you
sometimes that dream
is a sad delusion
but sometimes it’s true

so now we’re talking about this
I’m starting to lose my confidence
no one ever says a word about
so much that happens in the world

dance dance revolution
all we’re gonna get
unless it falls apart
so I say: go go go, go down
let it fall down
I’m ready for the end

-- Exodus Damage by John Vanderslice

[jerry611]

43. Yeah, yeah... and the government also blew up the levees in NOLA

NASA shot the moon landing on some sound stage in Arizona.

And there are aliens at Area 51.

[Philosoraptor]

51. Believe what your told like a good boy

They like guys like you.

[frylock]

69. yeah, yeah... and the government also traded drugs for arms..

and arms for hostages, and these same people are working for the current administration. :eyes:

[BrokenBeyondRepair]

71. ...and still trading drugs and arms

[cigsandcoffee]

45. I know that there is a temptation to believe that our only enemies...

...are domestic, but that's like wearing a blindfold and painting a target on your chest. Soon, a Democratic administration will have to deal with terrorism, and I think the country needs to be pretty Goddam clear on who is threatening us, and why. 9-11 serves as an important reminder of that.

I'll buy incompetence on behalf of GWB* and his gang of idiots - that's all too easy to believe. But MIHOP/LIHOP is not only rubbish, but counterproductive, selfish, and an absolute waste of time and energy.

Terrorism is real, and it will not always be a Republican Administration's problem. Complicating the matter with conspiracy theories doesn't help at all. IMO, anyway.

[readmoreoften]

47. self-delete dupe

[readmoreoften]

48. Why can't we have enemies abroad and at home?

If Bush is involved in 9-11, why would that negate the idea that people abroad want to kill us or have been trying. They've been doing a great job in Iraq. The shoe bomber tried. And how is research into 9-11 discrepancies "selfish"? And what makes you think that a Democratic administration is going to have to deal with terrorism soon?

Let's not forget the excluded middle here: Bush can be an enemy AND we can have enemies abroad.

[cigsandcoffee]

53. MIHOP/LIHOP is about downplaying the outside threat...

...and keeping the focus on George Bush, who some want to believe is the perpetrator of all evil in the world. He isn't. He's just a very bad President. His Administration doesn't have the competence to pull off MIHOP/LIHOP. Clearly.

What's more is that Bush is a transitory speck, soon to be disparaged by history books and remembered unkindly until he can be put out of our collective heads. Focusing on him with conspiracy theories that go beyond the already obvious incompetence of his Presidency can only serve to distract people from his obvious faults and turn off moderates - spooking them away from the left wing.

9-11 was a very real attack by outside forces, and those forces have not called it quits. I don't believe that Republicans will hold on to power in 2006/2008, which means that this existing problem - made worse by Bush - will soon be the problem of a Democratic Administration. Dicking around with MIHOP/LIHOP over 9-11 will make the difficult job they have to do a little bit tougher, and I really don't see the point of doing that.

[readmoreoften]

54. the majority of the people involved in MIHOP/LIHOP aren't leftists.

They are largely independents and paleoconservatives. I wholly disagree with your opinion about the situation, but to each his own. George Bush is an idiot puppet, but Cheney, Rove and the rest of the neoconservative gang are far from "incompetent." In fact, I think they are doing quite well for themselves. I believe that one day the left will be ridiculed as cowardly and even opportunistic for refusing to analyze 9-11. The Left is by no means coming out in favor of a new 9-11 investigation.

[Usrename]

58. Right.. sure.. nothing to fear from the folks who would do this..

just pretend they don't exist and everyone will be safe and sound. That's one way to support fascism, I guess.

A question though. If you believe that the Saudis (terrorists) were behind the whole attack, do you have any evidence that Bush is not on their side? I'm just wondering what would make you think he was not on their side.

[frylock]

70. what are you basing your beliefs upon?

You state quite firmly that "9-11 was a very real attack by outside forces". What research have you done to draw such a conclusion? What resources have you utilized?

[HughBeaumont]

73. Bush is a means to an end.

His administration is FAR from incompetent. Just because Bush = Retard doesn't mean the people behind him are. Reagan was a functional idiot just as Bush was. It was the men BEHIND him that made his presidency effective for the elite, which is what's happening now. They've historically been involved in a great deal of operations of questionable legality.

Not questioning your government and their involvement in these black ops is far more harmful to the nation as a whole than decrying and brushing off what you believe without question is a "conspiracy theory". Believing in MIHOP does NOT require you to adhere what cannot be proven. No real documented event that happened on that day passes the smell test. AT all. Events that are far too dubious to be brushed off as mere incompetence happened long before 9/11, and almost ALL of them involved people connected to the Cheney/Bush administration.

[rman]

60. The basis for mihop is not that our only enemies are domestic

Your apparent claim that it is, is a straw man.

However it does seem the basis for support for the official story is that there could never be domestic enemies so bad that they'd do something like 9-11.

[Kailassa]

66. Since 9/11, what has America done? Eliminate or make enemies ?

This warring has increased, not decreased, the number of people
all around the world who would be glad to see harm come to America,
and who would even give their lives to cause it.

We have no choice about looking at conspiracy theories.
The official story is an unbelievable conspiracy,
and is filled with lies, contradictions,
evasions and obvious bullshit.

If you kill 1000s of your own countrymen to track down "terrorists"
in a country that had no connection to the attack, instead
of looking at the facts to see who really did it, then you are
blindfolded and wearing a target for the next time the
administration needs a new Pearl Harbour.

Try googling for the Northwoods Report.



Or have another glas of cool-aid.

[Cleita]

46. I have always said that if there is a whistleblower who knows

what really happened it would be the end of BushCo, the PNAC and the GOP probably because even the most stubborn kool-aid drinking fundie right winger would have to let the scales drop from their eyes. This one event is unforgivable from all political sides.

[readmoreoften]

49. I'd love to hear what Sibel Edmonds has to say.

Too bad she has more gag orders put on her than any other person in American history.

[Cleita]

50. And do you wonder why? I hope someone else come out

from under the rocks and becomes our new deep throat. Hopefully, they will tell their story to TruthOut or Raw Story rather than the compromised MSM like the NYT or Washington Post. Those two papers have lost their credibility in my mind.

[Kailassa]

67. Potential whistle-blowers were probably given

free plane tickets for that day.

[Kailassa]

64. It's an interesting word: CONS - PIRACY

NO doubt the next terror attack in America will be the NEO-CONS-PIRACY.