Hey OCTs - why do you always stay out of posts like this one?

[JackRiddler]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x100475

[vincent_vega_lives]

1. Unless you think Russia was involved

It has nothing to do with 9/11/01.

[mhatrw]

3. Exactly.

While Russians of course may engage in that sort of thing, we most certainly do not.

Next thing you know you'll believe their story about the U2 incident.

[JackRiddler]

5. It is a historical precedent ...

So. You don't see the relevance of Moscow 9/99 to the discussions on this message board, around the contention that 9/11 was an example of false-flag terrorism - discussions in which you have participated for years, as a highly active partisan against that contention.

Its relevance is as an example on behalf of the inside-job/false flag hypothesis for 9/11. It demonstrates that a very similar explanation applies to the Moscow apartment bombings of Sept. 1999 and the Putin regime. The known facts of the 9/99 case closely parallel the 9/11 skeptics' suppositions and hypotheses about Sept. 11th, 2001.

The 9/99 example counters arguments that "conspiracies do not exist," that such plots only exist in comic books and movies and are based in a Manichean world view, that a government "wouldn't do that to its own people," that such an operation would be "too big," that those involved would be too incompetent, that too many people would have to be involved and some of them would necessarily talk to the media resulting in exposure, that no such secret can be kept, etc.

Although there are many other historical examples of false-flag attacks 9/99 is recent, on a grand scale, transformative of its society, and occurred in a relatively modern context:
- a state-sponsored domestic false-flag terrorist attack;
- effectively a covert-op coup d'etat carried out by members of the intelligence services and related, privatized elite networks;
- with many people in high places surely complicit, around a smaller group of operative perpetrators;
- involving mass murder by a government-based conspiracy and its exploitation to generate fear and launch a war;
- involving the framing of foreign religious fanatics;
- all of which was successfully carried out, in the sense that the perpetrators seem to have achieved their goals and certainly avoided capture;
- although they were surrounded by a government and society rife with incompetence and corruption, and despite exposure of the details of their crimes by some of the press and media;
- with denial, jingoism and lock-step nevertheless the dominant mood in society, allowing the crime to succeed;
- and despite its exposure, with tacit acceptance of the crime by the international community, out of pragmatic considerations.

Meanwhile, to the official story of the Putin regime, 9/99 was a cowardly attack on Russia's freedom and people, carried out by Muslim terrorists who take inspiration from Osama Bin Ladin, among others.

But no comparison to 9/11. Right.

[Nozebro]

6. Posts like yours are why Cavemen supporters rarely visit threads like this

When you combine historical facts about well-known False Flag conspiracies, common sense, and how human nature works - into powerful posts like yours, it's not surprising that they are reluctant to get involved.

[vincent_vega_lives]

9. Caveman Supporters

That's rich. Real powerful.

[JackRiddler]

13. Thanks for taking the bait.

You're illustrating the point. Keep at it.

[greyl]

15. Is that some new technique of building interest

in ones pet topic threads? Baiting?

I don't have much of an appetite. Thank you.

[FoxOnTheRun]

7. Is there a pattern?

7/7 Tony Blair MI5 according to MI5 agent David Schayler

9/99 Putin KGB

9/11 Bush Cheerleader - Poppy Bush CIA

[mhatrw]

8. It seems you have answered your own question.

They don't visit these threads kinds of threads because these kind of threads completely expose just how incredibly weak the traditional arguments against false flag attacks are.

It doesn't matter whether these arguments are presented by the gatekeeping left or the bullying right. While the traditional arguments against false flag attacks are clever sounding aphorisms, the simple and indisputable fact that false flag attacks exist today and have existed throughout history belies them.

At a very fundamental level all of the generalized arguments against false flag attacks (too hard to pull off, someone would talk, government is too incompetent, press is too curious, professionals and experts would surely put their careers on the line to expose any lies, too many people would have to be involved) are rooted in the absurd assumption that one's current time and place are somehow fundamentally different from every other time in history (the Maine, Operation Northwoods, the Gulf of Tonkin incident, etc.) and every other place in the world (Russia, Indonesia, Israel, etc.).

[vincent_vega_lives]

18. Unfortunately 'precedent' doesnt have the same meaning

in history as it does in Law.

counters arguments that "conspiracies do not exist," perfect example of a strawman aguement. Of course conspiracies exist, just not ones supported by wacky theories, bogus facts and faulty reasoning.

[JackRiddler]

21. "wacky theories"

In detail, this is often presented as the idea a government would do this to its own people.

Precedents are thus relevant in that they show that governments do do this to their own people, and thus theory not wacky in itself.

[Bryan Sacks]

23. A brief rumination on "own"

That's the key word, for me, in terms of shifting attitudes toward the possibility of false flag attacks.

"It's own people", unfortunately, no longer accurately describes the true relationship between governments/intelligence agencies and the citizens whom they putatively serve and represent. Even those on this fourm who are dismissive of ther possibility that 9/11 had false-flag elements will probably agree that most of our official and behind-the-scenes leadership are not motivated much by service to the public.

True public servants would not lie to their constituents as if it were of no consequence; true public servants would not go to war on false pretenses and accept the needless sacrifice of its young citizens; true public servants would not simply be married to their ruinous courses of action in the face of such obvious opposition. True public servants would seek to explain their contrary points of view to those who oppose them, and step down if they could not convince the vast majority of their constituents that the course of action they've chosen is the best one.

We are a mass society, and there is no appreciable feeling among the elected and the powerful behind the elected that they must serve anyone or anything but their own interests. They rest comfortably in the view that any action, no matter how obscene or ruinous, can be spun and will ultimately be digested by an apathetic mass of overworked, underinformed citizens. Those leaders who are less craven rest assured that they know best, and so they need not reexamine their commitment to policies that kill and destroy simply because a small number of citizens' groups are outraged by them, or because some poll says so.

Our leaders do not live among us. We are not 'their own'. Our leaders and their handlers do more and more of their work in enclaves of power beyond the access of the ordinary citizens, and thus 'we the people' become a mere abstraction to them. From the standpoint of cognitive dissonance, they can kill us almost as easily as they kill people of foreign countries who are completely out of their sight.

[John Q. Citizen]

2. Because, to the OCTs only discusions about

elves, fairies, and wackos relate to 9/11.


False flag operations in Russia have no connection to any of those things.

[FoxOnTheRun]

4. Well

Putin: Terrorism is plague of the 21st century
http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_208099.php

I think he knows something ;-)

Isn't it funny how after the cold war everybody shifted to terrorism, suddenly?

[hack89]

10. Because we are fully aware that false flag ops

have happened before. When you have as much evidence(like an actual bomb) as the Russians have, please feel free to get back to us.

[greyl]

11. The answer is so obvious

when you know it, eh? ;)

[pauldp]

12. There are some pretty alarming implications for our press don't you think?

I would never have heard about this had it not been for this "loony bin"
911 forum as some call it. Yet you could not get a more alarming example of the
suppression of real news by the American press than this story. So the Putin government appears to be illegitimate
and nobody knows about it. Does this not also cast doubt on the terrorist hostage taking in Beslan as well?
Similarities to 911 aside (and there are many) this story is an indictment of our media at the very least.
Why are they not covering it?

[JackRiddler]

14. Ah, but there was no evidence!

The FSB of Moscow confiscated this bomb to determine if it really was full of the explosive hexagene, as the Ryazan bomb squad who thought they had defused it had determined. They took it away from the Ryazan authorities and brought it to a lab in Moscow. Two weeks later, FSB announced it was just a sack of sugar. (I wish I was making this stuff up. Two weeks.) Which I guess the FSB knew all along, since, as they explained, the Ryazan bomb was only an exercise - a wargame organized by the FSB itself. A wargame that coincidentally had the exact same scenario and coincidentally was held at the exact same time as hexagene bombs planted by "the Chechens," who irrationally hate Russians, were bringing down real apartment buildings and killing 300 people around Moscow. (Even though no Chechens were found to have done it. Those insidiuous bastards.)

It was sort of like how those US government wargames on 9/11, simulating hijackings, and crashes into the NRO headquarters, and massive emergencies in New York, were all only coincidental, and anyone thinking otherwise is crazy. I mean, if the FSB said so, who would think otherwise, except Putin-haters and conspiracy theorists?! You know there's a paranoid streak in Russian politics, right? Academics have written about it! Russians are conspiracy theorists, see, and since a lot of them are demonstrably anti-Semitic, so there's no denying it. Anyone who entertains ideas that 9/99 was an inside job is therefore a conspiracy theorist and necessarily supporting anti-Semitism.

And after NTV was taken over by the government, there were no longer any cops from Ryazan on TV making these crazy unsubstantiated claims that the bombs they thought they had defused were real, and no more of any Russian media claiming otherwise.* So you see, there was no actual evidence that 9/99 was an inside job, and somewhere on a Russian-language Internet board right now, someone just like you, a coincidence theorist, is patiently pointing all this out in an exasperated tone...

(* Well, that part didn't happen in the US, did it now? No apparent need for the government to overtly take over the media in this country, right?)

[Nozebro]

16. Terrific post. Thanks. EOM

nt

[JackRiddler]

17. thank you! nt

[Norrin Radd]

19. Yes. Thank you for posting all of this.

I'd never heard or read about this.

[JackRiddler]

20. Why, thank you...

And let's keep kicking until OCT followers try to address this substantively.

[John Q. Citizen]

22. I'll do my part! n/t

[MervinFerd]

24. You don't have comparable evidence.

Find a bomb, we'll listen.

[MervinFerd]

25. Or a comparable crime.

It takes only one or a few men to plant a bomb. And they don't have to kill themselves

9/11 took at least 4 teams willing to die. That's a minimum. The canonical CTs would require many more. And they all have to keep quiet.

And your evidence sucks.