Who controls you?

[salvorhardin]

Poll question: Who controls you?

One of things that becomes clear to anyone who spends any amount of time reading and posting in the 9-11 forum is that those who believe in a government conspiracy to either bring about (MIHOP) or allow (LIHOP) the events of 9-11 to happen and those who don't tend to have very different ways of looking at the world. I thought it might be fun to explore just one such way our views might differ.

In the mid-1960s the psychologist Julian Rotter developed a simple bipolar scale to measure people's expectations about how much control they felt over their own lives. Rotter's original name for the concept being measured was called Locus of Control of Reinforcement because he believed that punishments and rewards greatly affected the way that people interpreted the results of their own actions but the test and the concepts behind it are usually just referred to as 'Locus of Control' now.

Here's a link to an updated version of Rotter's Locus of Control personality test. It's only 20 true or false questions. Give the test a go and then answer the poll according to the score you got and your beliefs concerning MIHOP or LIHOP.
http://www.dushkin.com/connectext/psy/ch11/survey11.mhtml

You might feel some of the questions on the Locus of Control test are forced. They are. Just pick whichever answer is closest to the way you normally feel. Whether or not the test says you have an internal or external locus of control doesn't say anything about you as a person and it is only designed to measure a very small part of your personality. There are no right or wrong answers. And this is a decidedly unscientific test.

Some of the things we could talk about include:
What were your expectations regarding this poll?
Did the results differ from your expectations?
Do you think people with strong internal locus of control scores are kidding themselves about the degree of control they have over their life?
Do you think people with strong external locus of control scores attribute too much to chance or luck?

And please, let's take this opportunity to dispense with the usual flaming, eyerolling and handwaving that occurs on both sides of the debate. At least for this one thread. We're all liberals and progressives here, we're all on the same side and we all share the same common beliefs and values. Let's see if we can't learn a little something about the way each camp reasons.

[Sinti]

1. You scored 75 - personally, I think people who allow others to control

them, or feel they don't have control over their lives must have had excessively authoritarian or domineering parents. Then again, I tend to blame most stuff on upbringing... people often need to finish raising themselves once they leave the old family home and take responsibility for the person they are and want to be. ;)

[salvorhardin]

2. I think that's a distinct possibility

How we're rewarded or punished by our parents and other authority figures, especially when those rewards or punishments are disproportionate to our actions or when they're seemingly arbitrary, can play a big role in how we perceive how much control we have over our lives.

I used to work at a private tutorial agency similar to Sylvan Learning Centers and I used to notice that those kids who had the greatest deficiencies in their skills were most likely to report feeling that their teachers were "unfair" or "didn't like them". As the kids gained mastery over the skill areas they were working on their perceptions of their teachers often changed. Were their initial perceptions wrong? Maybe. Maybe not. But since they did better on their exams and homework they felt more in control of the situation and how their teachers behaved had less effect on them.

I have some expectations for how this poll will turn out, but I'll keep them to myself until more people have answered. It'll be interesting to see if my expectations were wrong.

[Sinti]

3. That's interesting. I always found (as a parent not a professional)

that children strive to deliver exactly what you expect of them, if you make your expectations clear. You expect them to be astute little scholars, they are. You expect bad behavior that you have to constantly correct, they bring it in spades. I found this to be true with other people's children, as well as my own son. They are the way they see themselves in your eyes, if you will. It's an intriguing dynamic in the developing mind.

So it works the other way around, too, they assume you see them in a good light when they do well - or don't care if you don't. I like that - empowered youngsters make more thoughtful adults. We need more thoughtful adults. The current batch of cult fodder is endangering our nation, IMO.

[salvorhardin]

4. "The current batch of cult fodder"

Oh, I definitely agree with that. I think we (as a society) think that our kids just naturally pick up critical thinking skills from their science and math courses but they don't. And as the high school curricula is being increasingly streamlined to fit the NCLB testing regime it shouldn't be surprising. But beyond that critical thinking, healthy scientific skepticism, is a set of values that we either learn from our family and peers or we pick up from our culture. Hopefully both, but I think in the past couple of decades those values have been supplanted in the culture so it's even more important for parents to teach and reinforce them.

[jschurchin]

5. I scored 70

and am firmly in the MIHOP camp. Part of this, no doubt, comes from my own 30+ year investigation into the JFK assassination. I know what certain organizations in our government are capable of, and they are not above being involved in a 9-11.

[salvorhardin]

6. Bump

Let's see if we can't get more LI/MI HOPers responding.

[salvorhardin]

7. Anyone else want to get in on this?

[AZCat]

8. You might want to give it another 24 hrs.

Sometimes it takes a while for a thread to get viewed by the regulars here. I'd rather you have a larger sample size before any real discussion begins.

[salvorhardin]

10. Actually that was my intention

I was just bumping the thread. ;-)

[Nabia2004]

9. Scored 100 MIHOP, no doubt about it - nt

[greyl]

11. Very interesting point you bring up.

Some of the things we could talk about include:

What were your expectations regarding this poll?
Did the results differ from your expectations?
Do you think people with strong internal locus of control scores are kidding themselves about the degree of control they have over their life?
Do you think people with strong external locus of control scores attribute too much to chance or luck?

I expected it would trend toward MIHOPers having a more external locus and that the CT vote would be under-represented because the vast majority of them want to be honest. edit: preferring to remain silent rather than lie.

[salvorhardin]

12. So, what does everybody think?

Did you have any expectations about the outcome of this poll? Did the results differ?

[Lilith Velkor]

13. It's about as I expected

The more external one's locus of control, the less one wants to admit it.

My score was 50.

[salvorhardin]

16. Do you think people were lying then (at least to themselves)?

Do you think people were lying then (at least to themselves) when answering the locus of control survey?

[Lilith Velkor]

21. Maybe

The survey questions are pretty obvious.

It's also interesting that one gets a higher score if one subscribes to the Protestant work ethic which informs capitalist dogma.

But anyway, I would think those with an external LOC consider the whole 9/11 matter settled, and thus wouldn't bother with this forum.

[Kingshakabobo]

14. I scored 80. I certainly don't believe in MIHOP but I could be........

....convinced about LIHOP. LIHOP being a combination of incompetence on purpose and/or total disregard on purpose - especially by the backroom operators(cheney,rummy,wolfie)- Not by bush - he likes to jog, vacation and salute the Air Force 1 Marine.

where do I vote?

edit: spelling

[salvorhardin]

17. Answer whichever way you feel comes closest to how you really feel

It's a DU poll so there's not exactly much room for flexibility in designing it.

What do you think of the results so far?

[Kingshakabobo]

18. I dunno.

I would think the CTers would lean toward external but I have a head cold so I'm hopped up on cough syrup ....weeeeeeee. Wait, I think it's making me MIHOP.....I keeed I keeed the MIHOPers.

[mikelewis]

15. I scored 50 and I'm MIHOP

[Virginia Dare]

19. 60, and I'm MIHOP or LIHOP...

haven't decided yet.

[John Q. Citizen]

20. I scored 70. And I'm solidly MIHOP/Inside Job.

I didn't have many expectations as regards the poll. Deciding whether one believes that 9/11 had Inside Help or No Inside Help isn't a factor of your external or internal locus IMHO.

One could say, we were helpless in the face of the clever diabolical hijackers who got lucky
just as easily as saying we are at the mercy of a shadow government military indutrial economic faction who helped pull it off.

Both statements would reflect an external locus of control I believe while being diametrically opposed on internal opereration/external operation of 9/11, for example.

[salvorhardin]

24. Is there an equivalence?

Do you see an equivalence between those two beliefs or do you think one belief might be more likely to be held by someone with a high external locus of control?
1) The belief that a shadow government orchestrated and executed the events of 9-11
2) The belief that a band of clever, diabolical hijackers executed the events of 9-11

[John Q. Citizen]

27. I don't believe there is correlation between inside/outside job belief

and internal/external locus of control. I could be wrong and I will continue to ponder it, but that's my early view.

I believe there is a much more pronounced correlation between authoritarian / non- authoritarian world view, conformity/ non conformity world view, and inside job/outside job belief.

From the anecdotal evidence I have gleaned from this forum, it appears to me that people with a more authoritarian view and a more conformist world view tend toward rejecting MIHOP.

This is anecdotal but one reoccurring theme of those who tend to reject MIHOP is a definite concern about how MIHOP views reflect upon the group as a whole.

Another reoccurring theme is that, since the institutions of authority (In this case NIST, both major parties, the big media, the 9/11 commission) have rejected MIHOP then others should also.

What do you think?

[salvorhardin]

28. Just wanted to give a quick acknowledgment of your post

Thanks for answering. I'm dead tired and my head is about to 'splode so I'm going to put of replying till tomorrow. Of course, you're wrong, wrong, wrong!

I'm just kidding. Have a good night.

[mirandapriestly]

32. I totally agree , the ability to trust the media

and government officials plays a big part. I have come to completely mistrust both, whereas before this administration, election fraud and 9-11, I held the mainstream media in reasonably good faith as well as our democracy. Then I saw the media completely ignore glaring issues and partake in blatant propaganda. My extreme level of distrust came after these events, it wasn't there, to this degree, before, although, I have always been skeptical.

[AZCat]

33. The real question is whether truthful accurate reporting...

was ever really normal. The whole Owens River robbery perpetrated by Los Angeles is a good example of newspapers colluding to black out an issue. IIRC all but one paper in Los Angeles (in a time when they were the only form of news) was involved, and at least one of the paper owners was a major player in the deal. Another example is the reporting done about effects of the two bombs dropped on Japan at the end of WWII - the NYT got a Pulitzer for basically lying.

[salvorhardin]

35. Touching on the authoritarian issue

I don't think so. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm about as far from authoritarian or seeking authoritarian approval as can be. I've got to say that strikes me as bad logic -- to assume because you have a non-authoritarian worldview that anyone who disagrees with you must have an authoritarian worldview. I know that you don't know me in real life (although it's really easy to get to know me, my real name, address, phone number are not more than a couple of clicks away) so there's no way for you to know that I do not readily conform to anyone's expectations or expect them to conform to mine. Instead, just let me suggest that if I have a worldview then it is scientific skepticism. Now that doesn't mean I don't have biases. I most certainly do. But what it does mean is that I place a high value on certain processes for determining facts that I believe offer the best way we have of getting as close to the truth as possible.

Which brings me to the two themes you mention. I'll give you the first but let me slightly elaborate. It's not that I (and again, I can only speak for myself) care how MIHOP beliefs make us appear. There are a huge number of non-evidenced beliefs shared by many on the left that I think are sheer hokum. The god belief being one of them. But you know, I don't really care what people believe. There are a lot of people on DU who believe in astrology. I wish they wouldn't but for the most part it doesn't affect me. And I don't really care if someone believes in MIHOP or LIHOP.

What does concern me with the 9-11 Truth movement though is the *way* many go about believing. As I stated above, I believe there are certain processes for determining facts that are the best way we have to get as close to the truth as possible. And so many in the 9-11 Truth movement just seem to throw them out the window. The other thing that really sincerely distresses me is this tendency to accuse other people of either being paid shills or dupes if they don't agree with MIHOP or LIHOP. Actually, that kind of scares me. For one, I think it's an example of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, but more than that I think it borders dangerously close to witch hunting. And of course, whenever anyone starts thinking along those lines it effectively shuts down any meaningful dialog. That's what I think others see when they look at the 9-11 Truth movement on the left. It's not how having MIHOP or LIHOP beliefs make us appear, but rather how the 9-11 Truth movement comports itself that I think gives off the bad impression.

Your second perceived theme though I think is mostly false. I'm sure there are some that believe this way. I do not.

[maddezmom]

22. Scored a 70 and I don't have a camp

and if I did it would be miserable failure, :shrug: .

[salvorhardin]

23. I was a terrible camper

It took me like a year to make Tenderfoot in the Boy Scouts and then I dropped out.

[Norrin Radd]

25. How does this relate to the question of free will, and determinism? n/t

[salvorhardin]

26. It doesn't n/t

[Anarcho-Socialist]

29. I scored 80; I do not favour the L/MIHOP theories

Q: What were your expectations regarding this poll?
A: I expected that the quiz would find that I had more control over my life than not but still with allowances for outside influence: culture, social control, constraints of family pressure, economic ideology, the concept of nation state, the structures of language and so forth.

Q: Did the results differ from your expectations?
A: Not really. I thought I would end up in the 70-80 score region.

Q: Do you think people with strong internal locus of control scores are kidding themselves about the degree of control they have over their life?
A: I would be quite sceptical of someone returning a 100 score. Although that person may feel s/he oozes charisma and has the world at their feet. However I suspect that such a person with a 100 score has underestimated the environment, her/his societal interactions and genetics as wielding influence over their lives.

Q: Do you think people with strong external locus of control scores attribute too much to chance or luck?
A: I conjecture it as a mark of low self-esteem, lack of coherent analysis, lacking of support and having insufficient coping strategies for dealing with life as they find it. I would expect someone in the 0-20 range to hold conspiracy theories that a large number of L/MIHOPers would consider to be "far out."

[Random_Australian]

30. 85 - I don't believe in MIHOP.

My expectations? I tried not to enter with any, so as not to skew my result! (Subconsciously)

Strong external locus people, like myself, kidding ourselves?

.....

In complete honesty... well, YES!

But only because our brains compute probabilistic functions, yet we act as if it were definite.

(Because it is much simpler to do, I would suspect)

Strong external locus people attributing too much to chance or luck?

Hmmmmm. I would say that that is also correct, but because this seems to imply to me just not trying as hard. I don't know why - so there is probably some flaw in my thinking.

:)

Interesting post!

[mirandapriestly]

31. well, I did it but the problem with tests like that is

I could have answered it completely differently with a slight change of perception. For example, there is a question about if you are persistent and work hard you will usually be successful. A white, middle class, well-educated American who is persistent and hard working will probably be successful, but an indigenous person with no access to education and little money, living in poverty in, say, South America, can be as persistent and hard working as they want and
success" and even survival may elude them their entire life. Also, questions about leaders who work hard will be successful, well, sometimes, yes, sometimes, no. I answered with a relatively positive outlook, and got a 70, but I really think "tests" like that are invalid because of the different perceptions we may have of what "successful" means and the different situations people take into account. I think the OCTS want to give the impression that they are "in control" of their lives, and therefore they don't think then gov't was involved in 9-11, but what is the difference between being at the mercy of the terrorists and the mercy of government officials or corporations?
(oh btw, I am MIHOP)

[salvorhardin]

36. You're right

Tests like these do not take into account ethnographic and class issues. However I think the people in this forum are sufficiently homogeneous that it doesn't matter. And, as I've repeatedly stated, this is about as far from being scientific as possible. I thought it would be a fun way for the two factions to actually talk for a change instead of throwing word bricks.

Your last sentence though troubles me. I don't think it's true, but again I can only answer for myself. I certainly don't want to give the impression that I'm "in control" of my life. Hell, with my health issues (I've told you I'm disabled before?) I'd be a fool to think I'm totally in control. Although I must admit I blamed myself for a long time and it took a lot for me to see that I had no control over the causes of my disability. Ultimately it was a matter of having the wrong genes and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But how I react to being disabled, and what I do with my life from now on is mostly under my control. Although even there I have to admit there are things that are out of my hands and there's always blind luck.

And I DO think the government was involved in 9-11. Absolutely. I just don't think it was MIHOP or LIHOP. Command paralysis, incompetence, greed, croneyism -- the Bush administration was absolutely complicit in 9-11 and it shouldn't have happened. I just don't think the administration engineered or had conscious foreknowledge of the events of that day.

BTW and FWIW: I scored 75 on the locus of control scale.

[vincent_vega_lives]

34. 85-100 Very strong internal locus of control

Not very surpising.