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Who put all those bombs in the WTC?

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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:02 AM
Original message
Who put all those bombs in the WTC?
From scientific analysis of both photographic evidence, basic physics of the structures, and hundreds of eye-witness reports, it has become crystal clear that a large number explosives were planted around the whole WTC complex in advance of 9/11. Not only in the Twin Towers and WTC 7, which were demolished in a classic "implosion" style demolition by detonation of many explosives at crucial structural points, in a carefully timed sequence of explosions. German Engineers are also now studying WTC 6, where a bomb went off on the roof almost simultaneously with an aircraft striking WTC 2(South Tower). Another building in the complex actually exploded and collapsed the next day, 9/12. No, this didn't all happen on account of some burning jet fuel.

This was a wide-ranging inside job to spectacularly destroy the whole complex, and blast away the evidence of what really happened. Though explosives can be seen going off in the usual pattern of a controlled demolition, the concrete was pulverized much more finely than usual, creating a deadly PYROCASTIC FLOW of hot concrete dust, just like a Volcanic explosion! The amount of energy required to do this was huge...there had to be many powerful explosives. And indeed we have many witnesses who were in or near the buildings and saw, heard, and felt such explosives. Many more who were near the explosions did not live to tell the tale.

That much should be regarded as settled. The question now is who could have done the dastardly deed. Well, major intelligence agencies like the CIA or the MOSSAD could have done it. But also some corporations could have done or had it done. The Carlyle Group, for example, obviously has the resources. And the way Enron cooked their books, the money could have come from there! The MOTIVE is there and maybe access too (Bush's brother Marvin was involved in WTC security).

This issue should be discussed open mindedly. There are a lot of suspects and leads we should try to check up on. Just because someone thinks the MOSSAD is one definate suspect (they had means, motive, and probably ACCESS) doesn't mean they're anti-semitic. Any more than investigating CIA and DOD links doesn't make one anti-American.

One theory, is that the bombing was not done by the same people who manipulated the planes, but added in by someone else who KNEW about that plan. For example, if the official suicide pilot story is true, we already know that the MOSSAD had foreknowledge and could have jumped in with this terrible add on, and of course the increased distruction made 9/11 so much more in Sharon's interest as in Bush's interest. This sort of theory argues that there were numerous devious contributors to the 9/11 disaster, linked by foreknowledge and interests, and perhaps only facilitated by some "letting it happen on purpose" from high-level neo-cons.

I used to believe in that kind of account, but now lots of evidence brought me to the conclusion that high level crooks like Secretary of Defence Rumsfeld didn't just Let It Happen On Purpose, they Made Sure It All Happened Just The Way They Needed It To. Even if there were some dupes, patsies and unwitting accomplices, this went off as one big plan from the top. Someone recently pointed out that if the aircraft that hit the North and South Towers were not both the passenger planes they are alleged to be, then the Towers would have to be destroyed to destroy the evidence. Planes have hit steel buildings before, the buildings did not collapse and the pieces of the plane remaining were always big enough to be clearly identified. We would have a whole lot more real evidence about the planes and who was on them if the Towers hadn't been so thoroughly blown to smithereens.

At the amazing Serendipity site, Peter Mayer came up with the idea that some demolition bombs could even have been installed as a SAFETY FEATURE. WHAT?! You may ask. The idea is that if an extremely powerful bomb were exploded down by the foundations of the building, a small NUCLEAR weapon for example, it could conceivably topple the structure, which would be a massive disaster for all of lower Manhattan, taking out many other buildings. From an INSURANCE point of view, it would be better if some controlled demolition charges then broke the building into chunks that would fall straight down. The problem on 9/11 could then be that some evil people happened to get hold of that detonation system, and used it to needlessly kill so much of the New York City Fire Department.

But even though this might have been the pretext or official reason why some explosives were installed, the amount of explosives in there was extremely to much of an overkill, creating that deadly PYROCASTIC FLOW of hot concrete dust that did so much damage. That is not done in any ordinary demolition. The only reason for doing it, would be to DESTROY ALL THE EVIDENCE of what had happened.

For now, I'm not going to dismiss any theory as long as it leads to finding and explaining some significant evidence. However you want to bring your speculative flights back to Earth and evidence is fine with me. But I do think we need to mainly think in terms of one big coordinated plan, where each part happens for a reason.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. WTC 7 demolished just like Twin Towers without plane or jet fuel.
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 01:36 AM by Dancing_Dave
WTC 7 collapsed on 9/11/2001 exactly the same way as the Twin Towers, in a rapid sequence of explosions, but it hadn't been hit by any plane. If you've got any brains, this alone is enough to make you question the Official 9/11/Myth upon which the whole Bush Regime is clearly based. Will you think for yourself enough to help this Regime fall, or not?

http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5396090821&f=9606022231&m=363601662
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. This is pure baloney.
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 01:48 AM by TankLV
I'm an architect. Member of AIA, past board of director member. 10 year + chairman of local building code committee. Own my own firm. Worked for many more large and small firms in between on request by executive "head hunters".

Involved with many high profile projects, including alert crew facilities (the kind that house the constant crews ready to scramble at a moment's notice to defend our air space - ring a bell??!!!), a nuclear bomb-proof hospital (OK, the above-ground portion would be sacrificed in case of an "event" with the only the below-ground portions left intact), etc.

Know many fellow engineers and architects involved with the building of the WTC (my sister is also an architect and involved with the construction of the WTC) and those involved in the investigation of the tragedy.

Read the engineers' reports. Bombs would've been extremely redundant. The planes + fuel + construction techniques discussed in many other threads posted here on DU and in many tech journals by extrememly reliable and well regarded experts were more than enough to do the damage.

These weren't your "typical" buildings. The planes knocked out over 1/3 of the supporting structure of the towers as point of impact. NO building ever constructed or imagined to be constructed could survive that.

Or:

Talk to the family of experts that do most (something like about 90%) of all world-wide such high-profile demolition to buildings. To expose, partially demolish, wire-up, not to mention "keep hot" the wires, is extremely dangerous work - that is why absolutely no wires are hooked-up until the absolutley last 5 minutes prior to implosion. It is absolutely unimaginable how such a pre-wired installation, done under secrecy with TWO 110 story buildings full of occupants at all times could be kept from going off prematurely, let alone at some random, future date.

Sorry to burst your conspiracy bubble, no matter how much I hate the evil cabal in OUR White House.

A more salient and pertinent question would be to ask why no NORAD fighters, which are supposed to be aloft at all times or ready to go like a firehouse, were scrambled at first moment of questionable flight patterns, especially in light of errant flight a short time earlier by some prominent figure in a private plane that brought the proper response within a few minutes. THAT's the "million dollar" LIHOP/MIHOP question!
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Please give me some links to prove that
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 01:55 AM by Dancing_Dave
I don't care who you claim to be, I see no links or information that affect this argument at all. One of the architechts who designed the WTC said he designed it to withstand such an impact. The physics calculations for your story have already been shown not to add up. You say absolutely nothing about all the photo, video and eye-witness testimony that many explosions actually occured. Essentially, this remains nothing but a reinforcement of PREJUDICE.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I speak with FACTS. YOU spew conjecture.
That you don't care for the FACTS is obvious. That you don't or won't research all the reports produced on this subject is proof of the fallacy of your wild claims. They are not "my" calculations. The physics add up rather beautifully. There is OVERWHELMING photo, drawing, calculation, eye-witness testimony that contradicts your claims. There are is no valid testimony or evidence that prooves your wild claims. I have no "prejudice" regarding this. Only my extensive professional expertise, and the professional expertise of my collegues. Do a "search" by "author" and read my many previous and extensive posts/responses on this subject. You're out of your league, chum, I'm afraid. I and many others can vouch for my expertise. You are already tiring and a waste of energy. I will let this thread die a merciful death by not wasting my time with such nonsense.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. You don't mention one fact!
And you don't even give me a link, which I would check out. There are links in my article dealing with the relevent facts in detail. You aren't saying anything!
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Again, READ THIS:
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 02:09 AM by TankLV
I've posted MANY time on this subject. YOU do the research.

For the mentally challenged:

1) Use the "search" engine conveniently provided by DU.
2) Search under "author - TANKLV".

For further EDUCATION try recent editions of any of the following magazines:

The Construction Specifier
Engineering News Record
Architectural Record
Progressive Architecture
Syracuse (Alumni) Magazine
Yale, Dartmouth, Cornell, Harvard University magazines.

(Damn sticky keys and fast typing!)

But of course, these have absolutely NO credibility whatsoever!

See ya!
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
71. you go tank
i am an architect as well, AIA, Lisc for 20 years, own firm, plan commission member in my community for 13 years, code specialist and have read the engineering reports in engineering news record. your claims are absolutely on target. in addition, once the upper stories started to collapse they created the pancake effect. no structure is engineered for that type of impact load.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. You're wasting your breath here
This issue was hashed out in the 911 forum many moons ago.

The results?

Some believe those towers came down from controlled demolition (and have links to "experts in the field"), others will never believe that and have links from many "experts" for their side to prove it.

This thread will get out of hand, the emotions will fly, and it will ulimatly get locked for rude behavior.

Just a FYI.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. But does that HAVE to happen?
In many other forums, actual informed and reasonable discussion has occured. How come people here are just content to express their prejudices instead of thinking until they have something constructive to add?
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. The wounds of 911 run very deep, it can lead people to say the
most ogrish things. I spent months discussing this issue in the 911 forum. All that ever came from it was animosity and bitterness.

Personally I believe this to be a "dead" issue, the Bush Regime wasted no time in hauling off every scrap of evidence to be melted down and sold on the open market. Plus what you are suggesting is that Bush had an ACTIVE hand in 911, a threshold some people just can't cross.

Sorry, but I'm just telling you this so that you don't waste alot of time in GD getting yelled at over this one issue.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Thanks, but why can't DU do as well as other forums?
There are lots of other places where these issues are discussed without the conversation immediately sinking to an absolutely uninformative and prejudicial level. There are some frayed emotions from time to time, but we can still be good humored and REALLY LISTEN TO WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE SAYING. We process various evidence and bring it up where it actually has some logical consequences. Why can't Democrats show any of the basic reasoning skills upon which Democracy depends any more?
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. That's just it, their reasoning is that you and your viewpoint
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 02:35 AM by Rex
are not only wrong, but it angers some that you even bring it up. Go check out the DU 911 forum, it has alot of wonderful posts on the subject and there are some who believe like you do. Give it a lookse.

911 forum link ---> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. It's not reasoning, and this is a general DEMOCRATIC CITIZENS ISSUE
The more specialized forum has already been sabotaged by hired disinfo agents. The good scientist who posted there don't even bother anymore. People who get angry about a person saying something before they even bother to check out what the evidence and argument is are showing NO KIND OF REASONING WHATSOEVER. There's absolutely no meaning in such a statement whatsoever. When a majority of people sink to such a stupid level, Democracy is dead in America and we are on the way to ruin. No matter how badly TV may have damaged a person's brain, they could turn around and start trying to understand. But people making such stupid prejudicial remarks only show that maybe people have given up on the independent thinking needed to make democracy work, and our Civilization is almost over. If we are to have a future, we will need to do a whole lot better than most of the responses I have seen in this thread.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Yeah, I quit going to the 911 forum
after Ewing2001 left DU and a few others like him. :(

P.S. They're not stupid or prejudice, they believe that their science is right and yours is wrong. That's the problem, only one set of events can be true, some people here just are tired of arguing ad nauseum about it.
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saskatoon Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
194. I got this site from a guy on Smirking Chimp.
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King_Crimson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
107. I too spent much time...
getting trashed over the same theory you espouse here Dave. You can post all the links you want, but I honestly believe that those who argue against your theory never look at them. I see you accessed the serendipity link...an excellent link and fact finding site.

http://www.serendipity.li/wtc.html
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
112. 'express their prejuidices'
they gave you sound information. You are the one with stuff from crackpot web sites, and unhealthy paranoia to boot.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
93. then how do you explain
The many 'spourious' explosions in buildings near the towers, amongst others the explosion on the roof of building building 6.
The fact that supposed boeing engine that was found is way to small
http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/plate51.htm (bottom right)

How is it that you think you can burst any bubble without addressing these issues?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
108. Thank you, Tank
excellent post.

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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
73. kick
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MiltonLeBerle Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. (Sigh)
:eyes:
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. You said NOTHING
No logic, no information, no thought, no reason, no evidence....WHY EVEN WASTE YOUR AND OTHER PEOPLES TIME SAYING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
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MiltonLeBerle Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
67. I said everything that needed to be said about your post-
here, I'll say it again:

:eyes:
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IranianDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. IT GOT BOMBED DEFINITELY!!!
NO EVIDENCE! NO DOUBT! NO LOGIC!

Just make shit up and post it on the board.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
IranianDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. You use unbelievably shady sources to come to false conclusions.
I have evidence. The evidence that I saw 2 planes hit the world trade center. Go on Mr. conspiracy man.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. If you think that's evidence that no explosions happened...
I don't know WHAT went wrong in your education. That's an entirely different issue. No connection. It's just a way to be A SUCKER FOR ANY MISLEADING PROPAGANDA SPECTACLE THAT COMES ALONG.
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IranianDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. What are you telling me?
That as soon as the planes hit there were explosives at the bottom of the building that blew up?
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. Check out the sources about WTC explosions
There are lots of good sources on the web about all the explosions in the WTC on 9/11. The best place to start is http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
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ACLYouth Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #32
100. Oh... right
A free website address that anyone could make. I really believe someone who believes in something so STRONGLY that they won't even pay 20 dollars for a real domain name or server. Real dedication. I'm sure that same degree of dedication was applied during the process of confirming rumors.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #100
105. Son
Why aren't you in class learning something instead of reading crap like this?

And you left your History book at home.
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #32
103. Would you like to buy my Yeti pelt? I got it from the Elohim.
And could probably get a discount for volume.
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Rocinante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. Well I tell you what
I'm gonna look at everything as long as the divine chimpy king and his minions are in control.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Rocinante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Hey man
Sorry but I was being in a sarcastic state of mind there
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IranianDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. lmao and I thought the Gore2004 guys were wackos.
lol
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. You still haven't said ANYTHING.
And my argument stands unscathed. Why don't you even bother to THINK before you say something?
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IranianDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. I'm not going to bother with you, you're on ignore.
TANK has just proved above that no rational thought will ever change your conspiracy driven mind.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
KabalaPaulosLuterGWB Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
154. Hi Dave!
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 01:58 PM by KabalaPaulosLuterGWB

Even IF what you say was TRUE..people of this country don´t want to believe it becouce it´s to much for them to bear.If this is true it will be finish with all of proudly american dreams..and dreams were exactly what many has been doing.The awakening process will not go so fast!people need time to melt it first and during the process many unfriendly words will be exchanged between parts.

The good thing is that everybody knows inmost thoughts the truth.It´s all about false proudness Dave.

Take care...
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saskatoon Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #154
203. The pitiful part of it is
that they are so naive..... as we were once upon a time. I have grandchildren and I hate to burst their bubbles re their beleifs in the honesty of our government. It is so sad.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #22
83. Sorry. It Doesn't Stand Unscathed
It's been refuted by professionals here. You just choose to ignore that.

That's doesn't mean your argument is unscathed.

Now for some technical points:

Have you ever seen a high explosive go off? A high explosive (which is what is suggested in your cites, not a slurry charge like McVeigh used) detonates at many times Mach 1. The result is an unmistakeable supersonic shock wave that is clearly evident on tape.

Have you any reference to a piece of videotape displaying this supersonic shock wave?

Secondly, if such a shock wave did not show up and the explosives were detonated at the moment of impact, why was there no evidence of ejectate from the hole in the building? All the glass and small pieces of metal should have been blown OUT of the hole due to the shock wave. Could you point me to any videotape evidence of high speed ejectate?

If the explosions were simultaneous to impact, why did the buildings take 60 minutes (roughly) to come down. Explosive demolitions usually take more like 20 seconds from first detonation to collapse. Why didn't this one come down immediately?

If the explosions were secondary to impact, is there any videotape showing a sudden pressure release from the building outward? An amount of explosive sufficient to bring down that mass would exert 10 to 12 psig across the entire floor where it was contained. Why don't we see shockwaves eminating from the building on which dozens of live cameras were trained?

Do any of your sources predict just how much subsonic compound would be needed to do the damage ascribed to these explosives? It's not in any of your links. The answer is actually fairly easy to calculate. Wonder why it's not mentioned. I'll tell you why. Because if these were subsonic explosions, it would take MANY TONS. Where would MANY TONS of slurry explosives be hidden in a building with 50,000 visitors and workers a day? Nobody would notice 100 drums of diesel fuel and 75 pallets of NH4NO3 being carted into an office building?

You castigate many others on this thread for not providing facts. Your post is woefully short on them, and has a few cites that are highly conjectural. So, if you wish to demand facts, present some of your own. Answer the questions herein as well.

There is a very good book on Industrial Explosives written by Eugene Meier. (He was my Physical Organic Chemistry professor in grad school.) Read that and then decide whether high explosives were involved. I've read it already. I'd say the answer is no.
The Professor

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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #83
183. Finally, a little bit of evidence and reasoning!
There actually are some witnesses who thought they heard some kind of supersonic boom at that time. It reminded one woman the Concorde supersonic jet.

There were many explosions that went off at many different times that day. The three biggest clusters of explosive events were when WTC 1 (the North Tower), WTC 2(the South Tower) and WTC 7 each was demolished by a rapid series of explosions in the pattern of a perfect demolition. This was captured on may videos and pictures and analyzed to determine where the "cutting charges" initiating the demolition sequence were and so on. There were also some explosive events roughly simultaneous with the impact of the planes, and at some other times.

STUDY THIS LINK FOR A GOOD DESCRIPTION AND ANALYSIS OF MANY OF THE EXPLOSIONS WHICH OCCURED: http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

Then you can write and tell me whether some of that sounds like what you know about explosives!

Actually, my post here was not about proving that many explosives went off on 9/11, I was interested in discussing WHO COULD HAVE PUT THEM THERE. You can see some underlined links where you can find a more detailed description and analysis of of all those explosions.
Somehow how people are so blinded by prejudice that they can't even see what the piece is about!
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #183
186. Your Links Have So Many Dubious Statements
Why would someone describe a noise like the sonic boom of a Concorde Jet? Why the Concorde? Since supersonic flight over the continental U.S. is forbidden by the FAA due to noise restrictions, how would she know what the Concorde sounds like in flight?

I see a quote like that and find immediate cause to doubt the veracity of the claim.

I've seen the video countless times. There is not a single frame that indicates a supersonic shock wave or a massive overpressure wave.

Neither your links, nor your speculation, even begin to explain how a significant enough amount of explosives to make a difference in the collapse of those buildings could have been hauled into, planted strategically, wired for synchronous detonation, and all while totally concealed from the 50k people in that building every day.

Like i said earlier, if it was a low velocity explosive, the amount needed to demolish the buidling would been TRUCKLOADS! McVeigh used a slurry explosive in OK City. He had a few tons of explosive; it went off only several dozen feet from the building, and the building itself did not collapse. How many truckloads of slurry explosives would have been needed for a structure this large?

I assume that some of these people who heard the big bang just before the collapse never heard a 3 inch thick piece of structural steel snap 600 feet from it's terminus. I don't know exactly what that sounds like either, but i'm quite sure it makes a loud noise.

Your post assumes a bomb and then wants to know who planted it. My questions are based upon the lack of visual evidence that an explosion was detonated.

Also, if you carefully read your links, you will notice that the accounts of the "loud boom" heard by some people aren't described as happening at the same time relative to the point of collapse. Hmmmm? That's quite curious as well. Which "bomb" caused the collapse?

Lastly, even in viewing the video again, and seeing no prior evidence of high velocity ejectate, i don't particularly care what a few people said about a boom. I was watching it live on TV when it happened. There was live sound run by professional sound techs using very good and expensive gear. There is no low frequency roar or spike detected prior to the collapse. Listen to it on your computer using the RTA function that comes with Windows 2000. Try to find a spike in the low frequency where the brisance is located following a supersonic velocity explosion. You won't find one!

You believe what you want to believe. But, i'm educated in the sciences and make a career out of optimizing processes and identifying the problems inherent to complex system. I'm a pretty good detective, i'd say. I'd say the visual evidence doesn't support your basic assumption.

So, we'll agree to disagree.
The Professor
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #186
208. You do have some real points here
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 05:21 PM by Dancing_Dave
:) I'll take these one by one.

There's lots of ways this woman could have heard a Concorde. She may have visited Europe, which many New Yorkers do.

I think where your making a mistake about the explosives, is that you are looking for signs of one huge bomb going off, whereas in a controlled demolition many smaller explosions happen in rapid sucsession running down the building. These explosions do not create the same effects you've seen looking at one huge explosion going off. Just study some videos of various controlled demolitions.

Then study the WTC video's at http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html , or from any other source you like. I believe you will see the same pattern.

Please read some of the many accounts of firefighters, EMT's, and others who witnessed or were injured by the many explosions which occured at various times, before you try to speculate about what might have caused their experience. There's already been a DU thread about an Operating Engineer working in the WTC who discovered massive explosive damage in several basement levels, long before the building collapsed. No, this wasn't done by cracking beams: http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID43/5750.html#68

The way to find out about how many explosives would be needed to demolish the WTC towers or WTC 7, is simply to study how such controlled demolitions have been done before. There seems to have been a bit more than usual done to pulverise the cement so small and disintigrate the evidence of what had happened. But basically, the pattern and timing of the explosions during the collapse was standard controlled demolition technique.

The question of the waves of ejectate visible in videos taken from the right angle, is already taken care of in informative articles I've given links to. From some angles, this obscurred by the Pyrocastic cload, as they also discuss.

Who put the bombs in there is what I and others are now trying to find out. We are making some progress finding clues to what happened in the building in the months leading up to 9/11. There were construction people doing work throughout the buildings who could have installed bombs. The NIST, which is supposed to be doing an official study of the collapse, is COMPLAINING ABOUT THE COVER-UP OF INFORMATION THEY NEED, INCLUDING INFORMATION ABOUT RECENT WORK DONE ON THE BUILDING. That should really tell you something!

To tell the truth, you really do sound like you have a good general science education. But it doesn't sound like you've learned much of the data about all the things that happened at the WTC on 9/11, or real attempts to study the various explosions, fires and so on.
Here's some of the data you can digest and come to your own conclusions about.
http://www.americanfreepress.net/08_09_02/New_York_Firefighters__/new_york_firefighters__.html

http://ontario.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=13395&group=webcast

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ground_zero2001/messages?msg=505.61

http://www.controlled-demolition.com/

http://www.americanfreepress.net/Conspiracy/Fire_Engineers_Call_WTC_Probe/

http://www.erichufschmid.net/WTC_PhysicsProblem.html

You can also just run google searches for "WTC Explosions" "WTC Bombs", "WTC Collapse" and so on.

:toast:

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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #208
231. This is so sad
One of the first links deals with firefighters who feel the fire is "one or two hot spots". Then you link to a photograph showing a huge line of orange flame all the way around the building, clearly showing that the entire floor is a huge, hot fire from top to bottom with more fires on floors above and below.

If you're going to post nonsense, at least post consistent nonsense.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #183
192. Assumption piled upon assumption
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 04:41 PM by TrogL
Note, I am actually attempting to get some work done today so there may be time gaps

The Spire



http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/The_Strange_Collapse_of_the_Spire.htm


He's assuming "the spire" is the concrete centre of the building. It's not. It's the right hand edge of the building. It doesn't collapse into dust, it folds up and falls down.



Flashes

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/Flashes/flashes.htm

I hardly call those flashes, they're more like lights. They sure don't look explosive.

Ever watched cars driving along the road when it's sunny? They flash as they pass you and the sun is reflected off windshields. When glass breaks it causes fragments that reflect sunlight. There's lots of glass in that building, and it's shatterproof glass so it doesn't break easily - it makes big, reflective chunks.

In the bottom picture, there's another white light that just sits there. :wtf: is that? Some sort of stationary explosion?

A poster up above debunked the so-called pyroclastic clouds.

I debunked the dust cloud up above.

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/Wtc-2/

Debris is being sent laterally because the building in pancaking and there's no place else for it to go. This footage is perfect showing the exterior skin containing the disintegrating core, and the flashing glass as the floors collapse.

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/underground/underground_explosions.htm

There is no discussion whatsoever of an explosion in the lobby. They do describe stuff being crushed, presumably by falling debris from up above. An explosion is mentioned, but we already know about that one - it's hundreds of feet up in the air.

(fixed spelling)
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
115. nothing will change your mind
I haven't seen anything in your links that show anything other than some unsupported evidence.
I watched the whole 9/11 thing as it happened. I do not remember any bombs going off.
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King_Crimson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
124. Doesn't anyone remember...
what was said in the neo-fascist "Project For a New American Century"? In order for them to put their project in motion they needed a "...cataclysmic event, similar to Pearl Harbor". On September 11, 2001 they got what they wanted!
More information can be found at www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/noon.html
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #124
131. The PNAC, along with a few others
What I don’t get is John P. O'Neill thing, being that * and BFEE is in on security at WTC, how come he is so quick to go to work there, what’s up with that? Wouldn't you at least figure he would do a little investigation before taking a job like that. I mean almost 30 years or something like that working for the Justice Dept. Oh yea he was just a young whiper snapper. Time to find a new job this is not working out so well, even though I spent all them years there!!!


Who Killed John O'Neill?
© January 9, 2002
The Daily Brew
http://www.thedailybrew.com

If you believe the media, John P. O'Neill was simply another innocent
victim killed in the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center.
But you don't need much imagination to suspect something deeper was at
work.

Clearly, O'Neill was a man Osama bin Laden wanted dead. O'Neill had
been a Deputy Director of the FBI, and Osama bin Laden's main pursuer
in the US government. O'Neill had investigated the bombings of the
World Trade Center in 1993, a US base in Saudi Arabia in 1996, the US
embassies in Nairobi and Dar-Es-Salaam in 1998, and the USS Cole last
year.

But once the first plane hit the North Tower, Osama bin Laden wouldn't
be the only man to profit from O'Neill's death. At the moment of
impact, O'Neill became the man who knew too much.

Just two weeks, TWO WEEKS, prior to the attack, O'Neill had left his
job with the FBI. O'Neill had quit because he believed that the Bush
administration had stymied the intelligence agency's investigations on
terrorism. O'Neill charged that it had done so even as it bargained
with the Taliban on handing over of Osama bin Laden in exchange for
political recognition and economic aid. In the ultimate irony, O'Neill
had gone public with these charges at the same time that he was leaving
the FBI to become the head of security at the World Trade Center(snip)


http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm
(snip)

Published on Tuesday, February 4, 2003 by the Prince George's Journal (Maryland)
Bush-Linked Company Handled Security for the WTC, Dulles and United
by Margie Burns

George W. Bush's brother was on the board of directors of a company providing electronic security for the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport and United Airlines, according to public records. The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp., also linked for years to the Bush family.
The security company, formerly named Securacom and now named Stratesec, is in Sterling, Va.. Its CEO, Barry McDaniel, said the company had a ``completion contract" to handle some of the security at the World Trade Center ``up to the day the buildings fell down."
It also had a three-year contract to maintain electronic security systems at Dulles Airport, according to a Dulles contracting official. Securacom/Stratesec also handled some security for United Airlines in the 1990s, according to McDaniel, but it had been completed before his arriving on the board in 1998.
McDaniel confirmed that the company has security contracts with the Department of Defense, including the U.S. Army, but did not detail the nature of the work, citing security concerns. It has an ongoing line with the General Services Administration - meaning that its bids for contracts are noncompetitive - and also did security work for the Los Alamos laboratory before 1998
(snip)

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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
230. Yes he did
Tank pretty much tore you a new one, sorry man.
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LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
33. Whoa, Dave...
...slow down here, buddy. None of us here are "professional idiots," and most of us here don't give "meaningless responses."

You've posted a lot of stuff here that, as others have already said, cuts to a very tender core of the American psyche. Whether Bush&Co had the place bombed or not, our country is still just as screwed.

I'd LOVE to believe that there were bombs as well as the hijacked planes, because we could then DEMONSTRATE IN THE STREETS for King George to be deposed. But just because Tank disagreed with your theory doesn't mean what you posted is worthless! It's all ammunition for getting rid of Bush!
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. But where's their thought or evidence?
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 02:52 AM by Dancing_Dave
I put up something with a lot of careful thinking and links to relevent evidence. Most of the responses I'm getting just show zero attempt to even begin to comprehend what the thought process is or the evidence on which it is based. They just reflexively respond from some pre-set prejudice that refuses to assimilate the thought and information I just put in front of their nose.

There are some hired disinfo agents working around the net, trying to drag it back down to the level of the corporate mass media which has become so propagandized. The internet is only thing that can unravel the Bush Regime, and they know it, and have millions of dollars to spend to correct that "problem". There are some at this site, and you can detect them partly from their empty prejudicial responses which show no sign of independent thought.
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LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. I understand your thinking, Dave...
...but I read the reports you linked, and I wondered myself who these guys are. Just because they have a website doesn't mean it's reliable information. I think that many people, myself included, simply prefer to withhold judgment until we get more facts (and until we can judge the reliability of the sources).

This obviously isn't a dig at you; I'd just like to know who the people publishing these reports are.

Regards...
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #41
53. It's not who they are, it's the strength of their resoning and evidence.
All the people I gave you links to happen to be eminent scientists and engineers. But that's not what really matters. There's no reason that just because somebody got a scientific degree they are immune to psyhcological processes of denial and self-delusion. Some people with such degrees just ignore a whole lot of cruicial evidence that would disturb them. But I'm giving you some links to open-minded well-thought through sites where you can follow the reasoning from this evidence and see for yourself how good it is.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #53
66. And how do you know they are "eminent scientists and engineers"?
For instance, this Andreas Bunkahle fellow, who's site is your first link: who is he, what does he do, what else has he worked on, etc.? The site has no outside links as far as I can tell.

He doesn't show any of his calculations, and right off the top of my head spot a number of more plausible expanations for many of the things he notes than preset demolition charges (which would be damn hard to place without drawing notice).

(for example, since you will ask for specifics, the "explosion" of building 6 is simultaneoud with the collapse of the south tower, so an obvious source of the upward-moving cloud seen in the video would be the dust&debris cloud from the collapse moving across the plaza and being forced upward when it reaches the buildings on the north side of the plaza (including 6), and the hole in the roof (photo taken much later) was caused by falling debris from the north tower, which was adjacent to it; the "new explosions" he sees in tower 2 are easily the result of windows blown out by the pressure wave of the collapse inside the building, a fraction of a second in advance of more obvious collapse damage)

If things like this are the quality of your sources, don't complain about anyone brushing you off and telling you to do some real heavy-duty research.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #38
117. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
11. The tooth fairy did it!

Im so sick of this argument. Anyone who understands anything about engineering concepts, and concepts like tensile strength understand the the WTC fell in the only way it could possibly fall, straight down. It was simply impossible for that building to topple.

But physics and engineering have a funny habit of killing good conspiracy theorys don't they?
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. That's an understatement.
Why use logic when wild conspiracy theories by crackpots are much more exciting!
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. YOU'RE the one using no logic!
All you did was express a prejudice. You just can't cope with reality, so you try to write it off as "conspiracy theory". It's just bloody pathetic.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. What do you have to say about all the evidence that explosions happened?
Absolutely nothing. There is no way such a prejudiced attitude leads to the truth. You simply refuse to deal with any evidence that does not fit the prejudices you have set in advance.
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. I am prejudiced..
in favor of physics and engineering.

I've looked at the data and the events, looking for evidence of what you claim.

Its not there.

Not amount of cajoiling will convince me that 2+2 equal 5.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. WHAT isn't there?
You obviously haven't found the links in my peice. You show asolutely no understanding of any science or engineering relevant to all the explosions in photos, videos, and numerous eye-witness reports. Including many by New York City Fireman! It is totally bogus for you to claim that science and engineering are behind you, when don't engage these issues in your statement at all.
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LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #27
39. Check out this great analysis...
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 02:52 AM by nm3damselfly
...published in Scientific American:

When the Twin Towers Fell

edit: fixed link tag

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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Thanks for giving a link
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 03:03 AM by Dancing_Dave
But it's really out of date. That theory has now been disproven. Check out http://www.serendipity.li/wot/wtc_demolition.htm Moreover, all the witnesses and photographic and video evidence of explosions throughout the WTC raises a whole different issue. Whatever you may happen to think about why the WTC buildings 1, 2, and 7 collapsed, there are still all the explosions to deal with. Check out http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

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LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. And here's a report by two scientists ...
...(one from Columbia University and one from the Maryland Geological Survey) who SIGNED their published work:

Seismic Observations During September 11, 2001, Terrorist Attack

<snip>
In case of the plane impacts to the WTC towers, the observed peak amplitudes on the vertical-component record at PAL (Palisades, NY; = 34 km) are 230 and 260 nanometers/sec for the first (North Tower) and the second (South Tower) impacts, respectively. A nanometer is 10 meters.

Figure 4 shows seismic record section of vertical seismic records from the WTC South Tower collapse at 9:59:39 (EDT) (13:59:04 UTC). It generated strong seismic waves equivalent to an earthquake of local magnitude ML =2.1 (Richter scale; see Kim, 1998). The seismic signals, Lg and Rg waves, are discernible up to about 500 km from the WTC site. Stations MVL, SDMD and SSPA that we examined for the Pentagon case, also recorded useful signals and indicate that these stations were working normally on September 11, 2001.

(more)

--------------------

Note that they don't mention ANY unusual seismic activity beyond what would have been expected for such enormous crashes.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #48
59. They don't say anything about it one way or another.
Though I'm glad you can dig up some evidence like this, their statement here isn't very relevent to what we're talking about. They don't say anything about it one way or another here. Actually, in this context, their just taliking about some evidence that the equipment was working properly! It's a whole different issue what kind of earthshaking events might be registered there.

Though the seismic record is interesting once you understand whats going on, I think a more photographic study like this will be a lot easier for most citizens to grasp:
http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

This site also has interesting quotes from some of the hundreds of witnesses who have testified about the explosions, and trys to get a bit of a timeline together about what explosions happened when and where. The author is still working on that part.
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Devils Advocate NZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #48
243. Hmmm... Why do these scientists not know what a nanometer is?
They claim a nanometer is ten meters:

In case of the plane impacts to the WTC towers, the observed peak amplitudes on the vertical-component record at PAL (Palisades, NY; = 34 km) are 230 and 260 nanometers/sec for the first (North Tower) and the second (South Tower) impacts, respectively. A nanometer is 10 meters.

But a nanometer is in fact one BILLIONTH of a meter (hence nanotechnology etc). So why the incorrect definition?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
120. there is nothing in that site that proves anything
I am no specialist, but I have seen enough crackpot sites to know when I see one.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #120
175. Please say something and give evidence.
If you really have something to say about those site, you will give evidence and reasoning showing that you understood what they, and realize a particular mistake. All you have done in this little post is to expose your own PREJUDICE("crackpot sites") and STUPIDITY ("I'm no expert") Surely, you can do better than that.
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #25
85. Can you elaborate what you mean exactly?
"Its not there."
What is not there?
Witnesses report explosions. No evidence, but an indication.
Evidence in the hard sense is not there to support the official version. If you think otherwise, please cite corresponding sentences from the FEMA reports or other investigation results.
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #85
135. I could
Essentially the "evidence" presented is a crock.

Honestly, Im tired of fielding these arguments. These are classic examples of starting with a conclusion and then using bunk science to support the conclusion.

While I could drag out the engineering and scientific rationale for why the buildings fell they way they did, they ONLY way they could have, IM not going to this time.

Why? because I've done it dozens of times, no one understands and no one changes their minds.

I have no duty to continually defend real engineering, real science and real physics.

Now if folks want to say that this is proof that they (perhaps you?) won the argument, that fine to.

IMO,losing an arugment to the conspiracist on this, is like losing a game of nintendo to a 5 year old....The 5 year old is happy, and I don't have to keep playing..
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zoidberg Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #135
138. But you didn't provide a link
If you could back what you said with a Geocities link or something, I might believe what you had to say.
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #138
145. You won!
Can I stop playing now?
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
35. I say I don't believe anything till it’s proven the mere fact that they...
so quick to get rid of the aftermath, says a lot. Did anybody get to study any of it? They were told it had this or that and needed to be buried immediately were they not?

http://www.rense.com/general28/ioff.htm

New Seismic Data Refutes
Official WTC Explanation
By Christopher Bollyn
Exclusive to American Free Press
9-5-2

Two unexplained "spikes" in the seismic record from Sept. 11 indicate huge bursts of energy shook the ground beneath the World Trade Center's twin towers immediately prior to the collapse.
American Free Press has learned of pools of "molten steel" found at the base of the collapsed twin towers weeks after the collapse. Although the energy source for these incredibly hot areas has yet to be explained, New York seismometers recorded huge bursts of energy, which caused unexplained seismic "spikes" at the beginning of each collapse.

These spikes suggest that massive underground explosions may have literally knocked the towers off their foundations, causing them to collapse.

In the basements of the collapsed towers, where the 47 central support columns connected with the bedrock, hot spots of "literally molten steel" were discovered more than a month after the collapse. Such persistent and intense residual heat, 70 feet below the surface, in an oxygen starved environment, could explain how these crucial structural supports failed.

Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of "literally molten steel" at the World Trade Center.

Tully was contracted after the Sept. 11 tragedy to re move the debris from the site.
(snip)
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #35
44. Thank you!
Finally, someone shows they know something about what I'm talking about. Yes, the seismic evidence is an important part of information about all the explosions in the WTC. Though only explosives connected to geological bedrock would really be noticable there. It's important for us to know that there were some explosives that deep within the buidings.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #44
68. re: seismic record
Let me assure you, the seismic record refutes the idea of explosive charges in the WTC. As the only person here (I'll bet on it) who's ever downloaded and read original seismic data using RDSEED, and actually looked at the source (unfiltered) data on this, I speak with a certain amount of authority.

"only explosives connected to geological bedrock would really be noticable there"

Nope, nope, nope. Ask a geologist. Because I have. They would also tell you how seismic waves move through the earth, that there are two kinds of them, that they are monitored in three vectors (four, if you count time), and movement can be accurately timed and tracked across the globe at VERY small displacements -- and that those who see "mystery spikes" in a single element (not even a complete timeseries!) of the record are misinterpreting the results.

Like the patient who eats an apple, then is shot in the kidneys by a burglar -- and makes the conclusion he must be deathly allergic to apples.

Library: basic three-part seismology.
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #68
96. Could you explain this a little bit for non-geologists?
"Let me assure you, the seismic record refutes the idea of explosive charges in the WTC".
Why?

"They would also tell you how seismic waves move through the earth, that there are two kinds of them, that they are monitored in three vectors (four, if you count time), and movement can be accurately timed and tracked across the globe at VERY small displacements"

That might be. But that does not support your argument.

So, why exactly do the spikes refute the idea of explosives?

Which vectors to you mean?
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #96
127. A seismic primer
This is out of a pure effort to help people understand how this stuff works.

A seismic instrument records motion (actually velocity, which can be integrated into a distance of movement measurement) in three directions. North-South, East-West, and Up-Down. What you see from LDEO (IIRC) is the Up-Down portion of the record (which is often the most interesting to the layman). All three records taken together are called a timeseries. Since you have recorded motion in three dimensions, with some information about the properties of the surrounding earth, you can determine the azimuth (direction of origin) of the event the instrument records.

There are usually three kinds of waves seismologists find on these seismographs. A P-Wave is a longitudinal wave, meaning the oscillation occurs in the same direction (and opposite) the direction of wave propagation. An S-Wave is literally a shear wave. A single "seismic event" will produce both a P-Wave and an S-Wave, with the P-Wave arriving first. The distance between these two waves (compared on all three elements of the timeseries) tells a seismologist the power (and restates with greater accuracy the location) of the event.

The third kind of wave found is an N-wave, an n-shaped waveform (occuring chiefly on the Up-Down axis) caused by a shock wave traveling in air, and displacing the earth. N-waves are commonly seen in aircraft sonic booms, volcanic eruptions, and large explosions. The first clue that something is odd with the above article is no mention of an N-wave -- which is appropriate, because there is not one in the Up-Down record.

"Experts cannot explain why the seismic waves peaked before the towers actually hit the ground."

Actually, it's very simple. At the moment of the initial collapse of the building (many seconds before the entire skyscraper collapsed), the object striking the ground was at its most massive. That first moment should have created the largest "spike", especially in the Up-Down direction. To a layman, the initial arrival of the P-wave (especially in Up-Down) looks quite small. But that same P-wave appears quite significant in the other two directions. Similarly, when the shear wave arrives at the measuring instrument, it appears huge in comparison to the P-wave -- if you only look at the Up-Down component.

Bollyn's article seems uninformed (for example, "Richter Scale" measurements wouldn't be the most useful in looking at actual explosions, although the term may be more familiar to the reading public), and seems composed of many quotes taken out of context -- and considering the arcane nature of seismology, that's not a difficult thing to do. The field isn't particularly "sexy"; most information formats, for example, are practically made from whole cloth at various universities, and Sun UNIX programs written to interpret them.

The nutshell is, in truth, every "wiggle" on the PAL record is where seismologists expected it to be. The two "unexplained spikes" are the shear waves from the initial collapse, right on time. Hopefully this was useful, and not too boring.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #127
158. Aaaaand, no one cares....
Why did I spend all that time explaining stuff?

:kicks self:
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #158
173. But yes, I care (only had to eat something in the meantime)
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 02:57 PM by gandalf
Thank you for your primer. I appreciate information (some here prefer only to post statements and say they proved them before so often...)

What seens not plausible to me is your part dealing with the WTC:
“the object striking the ground was at its most massive”. Which object?

According to the FEMA theory, one floor in the upper part of the building fell down, the floor below could not bear the weight, fell down, and so on.
In the beginning of the collapse process, only little kinetic energy is released, because only one floor fell down, then a little more, when the two floors fell a little bit deeper, and so on.
The impulse of the first falling floor hitting the floor below would travel to the ground, then to Columbia university where it was measured. It is not a big impulse, though.
Why should this first moment then create the largest spike?
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #173
177. You're still thinking N wave
There was no up-down shock. The falling building caused a P wave that built up as the building came down. I suspect it would have peaked half-way down as rubble accumulating at the bottom began to cushion the effect of the rest of the building coming down.
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #177
181. Did I describe which wave form I assumed?
OK. You say a P wave was produced. At the moment, I cannot verify this, I will assume it is correct for the time being.

But it's amplitude would reflect the energy transmitted.
The energy that was released by the collapse would be the lowest at the very beginning. Why should the wave (even a longitudinal wave) have it's highest amplitude at the beginning?
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #177
182. Better explanation
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc.php - bottom of the page

The gigantic impact forces caused by the huge mass of the falling structure landing on the floors below travelled down the columns like a shockwave faster than the entire structure fell.
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #182
187. Yes, but time of highest amplitude is not explained
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 03:43 PM by gandalf
"Once one storey collapsed all floors above would have begun to fall. The huge mass of falling structure would gain momentum".
That would be the result of the storeys, falling down from above, one after another at the beginning, following FEMA.

Hoever, I still maintain my claim that the lowest energy (only the potential engery stored in one storey at the very beginning) and therefore the lowest amplitude will appear at the beginning of the process.

Why should the highest amplitude (spike) appear at the beginning?

Naturally the shockwave (I suppose the differential equations for acustic waves would apply here) travels faster than the material itself, but at the beginning it would still be the shockwave of one single storey (in the prototypical process, one storey after another at the beginning).
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #187
189. Yes, if
"Hoever, I still maintain my claim that the lowest energy (only the potential engery stored in one storey at the very beginning) and therefore the lowest amplitude will appear at the beginning of the process."

This would be intuitively correct if the initial failure was at the top storey, and each storey below collapsed in succession. But whichever (I don't remember) storey collapsed first had the weight of those above it in its first "thump" (which was then sent through the building to the ground).
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #189
197. One storey did not bear the weight of those above it
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 04:15 PM by gandalf
The floors bear no load at all, only their own weight and that of the things directly on this floor.
If you look at page 2-26, figure 2-21, of the FEMA report, you can see that a single floor would collapse on the floor below due to “failure of end connections” (cf. p. 2-25), but then not immediately cause the floors above to collapse, too. It is NOT so that the whole part of the building above the collapsing floor would move instantaneous in a parallel movement with the first collapsing floor.
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #189
228. Only low release of energy at the beginning of collapse
Additional remark:
Even after reading the relevant part of the FEMA report, I do not fully understand their explanation model. So, to disprove your argument even for the case that all floors above the floor that collapsed first (I think floor 91 for the South Tower, a little bit lower for the North Tower) would start falling down immediately when the said floor collapses, the energy released in the first moments of the collapse would be relatively low.
It is a part (!) of the potential energy stored in these upper floors of the building. Only when these floors have travelled to the ground the whole potential energy stored in these upper floors would have been released.

So my question still remains: Why should the highest amplitude of the seismic wave show at the beginning?
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #228
229. I think you answered your own question
The first thing that moved was everything from 91 to the top. This impacted the next floor down. This impact was delivered down throught the structure as a shockwave to the base and hence down through the ground to the seismograph. Every impact after that was a single floor impacting, not a whole bunch of floors.
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Devils Advocate NZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #127
244. So can you tell us why these scientists...
found no seismic data to indicate the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon, even though they found impact data for both the WTC impacts and the Flight 93 impact?

Since the time of plane impact at the Pentagon had often been reported with large scatter, the United States Army contacted us to inquire whether we could obtain an accurate time of the Pentagon attack on September 11, 2001 based upon our seismic network. We analyzed seismic records from five stations in the northeastern United States, ranging from 63 to 350 km from the Pentagon. Despite detailed analysis of the data, we could not find a clear seismic signal. Even the closest station ( = 62.8 km) at Soldier's Delight, Baltimore County, Maryland (SDMD) did not record the impact. We concluded that the plane impact to the Pentagon generated relatively weak seismic signals. However, we positively identified seismic signals associated with United Airlines Flight 93 that crashed near Shanksville, Somerset County, Pennsylvania. The time of the plane crash was 10:06:05 5 (EDT).
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/nodate/seismicobservations.html

What am I missing? Can even small explosions be detected, but the impact of a 767 can't?
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #244
248. Seismic signal depends on medium and "thump"
Seismic waves are pressure waves, like sound waves. To figure what you may be missing, think of what makes sounds easier or harder to hear: how loud & clear it is to begin with, and whether the environment carries or dampens it.

Flight 93 plowed into the ground from altitude, so it had a relatively high vertical impact speed, a nice, big "thump" for the sensors to detect.

The WTC Towers had foundations that reached into the bedrock, which conducts seismic signals much better than looser material, like sand or landfill.

As for the Pentagon? The plane came in at a shallower angle than 93, the engergy of its impact was physically more spread out as it touched ground outside the Pentagon then plowed into it. I'm not sure of the geologic/seismic properties of the gounds, but it's not inconceivable it is absorbtive enough to dampen the seismic signal of the crash below the point where the stations could clearly distinguish it from background noise. (Considering we're talking about the Pentagon, it's vaguely possible such properties were deliberate, to foil spies trying to listen to sounds transmitted through the ground -- but that's just a "it's conceivable" on my part, I have no actual knowledge on that subject.)
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #68
97. From the above article
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 11:38 AM by nolabels
(snip
Experts cannot explain why the seismic waves peaked before the towers actually hit the ground.

Asked about these spikes, seismologist Arthur Lerner-Lam, director of Columbia University's Center for Hazards and Risk Research told AFP, "This is an element of current research and discussion. It is still being investigated."

Lerner-Lam told AFP that a 10-fold increase in wave amplitude indicates a 100-fold increase in energy released. These "short-period surface waves," reflect "the interaction between the ground and the building foundation," according to a report from Columbia Earth Institute.

"The seismic effects of the collapses are comparable to the explosions at a gasoline tank farm near Newark on Jan. 7, 1983," the Palisades Seismology Group reported on Sept. 14, 2001.

One of the seismologists, Won-Young Kim, told AFP that the Palisades seismographs register daily underground explosions from a quarry 20 miles away.
(snip)

on edit: forgot the snip on top
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #68
185. Seismic evidence isn't most conclusive.
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 03:39 PM by Dancing_Dave
Various geolgists have interpreted those seismographic records in various ways. By far the most important set of explosions, the ones which actually demolished the buildings in perfect rapid sequence right down the building, could not possibly show up on a seismograph as seperate events. But one can see and analyse them very clearly in many videos!

It's possible that the seismographic record will provide some evidence about mysterious explosions that tore up a bunch of the basement levels of WTC 1 around the same time as the plane impacted far above. LEARN ABOUT MANY OF THE EXPLOSIONS FROM THIS HIGHLY INFORMATIVE SITE, http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

and then you will actually have something intelligent and relevent to say about thoughtful posts like I just put up!
Be an independently informed Citizen or Democracy perishes! :)
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #35
102. Are you kidding me?
These spikes suggest that massive underground explosions may have literally knocked the towers off their foundations, causing them to collapse.

If such a ridiculous contention were even supportable, let alone true, the towers being 'knocked off their foundations' would have resulted in a much different pattern of collapse.

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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #102
118. From the article
(snip)
Evidently, the energy source that shook the ground beneath the towers was many times more powerful than the total potential energy released by the falling mass of the towers. The question is: What was that energy source?

While steel is often tested for evidence of explosions, despite numerous eyewitness reports of explosions in the towers, the engineers involved in the FEMA-sponsored building assessment did no such tests.

Dr. W. Gene Corley, who investigated for the government the cause of the fire at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco and the Oklahoma City bombing, headed the FEMA-sponsored engineering assessment of the WTC collapse.

Corley told AFP that while some tests had been done on the 80 pieces of steel saved from the site, he said he did not know about tests that show if an explosion had affected the steel.
(snip)
This is what passes for an investigation?

This stuff is done all the time, people do if for a living
http://www.dykon-blasting.com/Services/Implosion.htm
(snip)
New Year’s Day 1999 was brought in with a bang when Dykon imploded the Buccaneer Hotel for JTB Services. This old hotel sat on the boardwalk in Galveston, Texas. A brand new Baptist retirement facility had just been opened up only 25 feet from the old Hotel. A large cooling tower and generator station were only feet from the building to come down. The residents of the retirement facility were concerned about the close proximity of the implosion as well as the vibration from the blast. On the morning of the shot the residents were evacuated and seismic monitors were placed at sensitive locations around the structure to measure the ground vibration from the blast.


At high noon on New Years Day the button was pushed setting off 135 pounds of explosives, imploding the hotel. The structure fell where planned and the resultant ground vibrations were well within threshold limits.
(snip)
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #102
122. exactly
they fell from the top down--I watched them live on TV--and not from the bottom up. We would have also seen a ripple effect from high explosive charges in the superstructure--again that was not there.
I see no motive or evidence for putting a bomb underground.

Lets say that George Bush did arrange the 9/11 attacks--why would he jeopardize the mission when he already had what he needed--4 passenger planes used as attack missles? Why would he risk blowing the whole thing by planting underground explosives when the planes provided valuable photo ops?

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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #122
191. I think I can tell you why the Bush Cheney gang had this done
It DESTROYED ALL THE EVIDENCE. Planes have crashed into steel buidlings before, the buildings did not collapse or disintigrate and the wreckage of the plane was very easy to study and analyse for clues. If the planes weren't hijacked by the people we were told did it (and there really isn't much evidence against them!), or what actually hit the twin towers were not both the planes we were told, or if remote controll of the planes was really used to create a much more certain method of making sure the planes hit the targets that Rumsfeld, Cheney ect. wanted them too...you see they could have lots and lots of reasons to DESTROY THE EVIDENCE. And they did destroy the evidence about the planes by blowing the Towers to smithereens. The only problem for them is that now people are finding so much evidence of so many explosions that their cover is about to be blown.

If people wake up to the truth about this, the Bush Regime will fall. Otherwise, we'll be stuck in 4 more years of a nightmarish downward spiral. There is only one way out of this trap. THE HIDDEN TRUTH ABOUT 9/11 MUST BE EXPOSED. :think:

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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #191
199. Yawn.....
And they did destroy the evidence about the planes by blowing the Towers to smithereens.

Mindless supposition without evidence will only get you laughed at. Or laughed out.


THE HIDDEN TRUTH ABOUT 9/11 MUST BE EXPOSED. :think:

I exhort you in the strongest possible terms to try and do what you've suggest to others.
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coda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
37. I've considered it with an open mind and it's incredibly silly.
LOL

Have a bottle on me.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Fixated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. ....
Well, Tank is an architect, right? He can be his own source, really. Would you like him to make a website or something?
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. You still aren't making any argument
Whether or not someone happens to be an architecht, one still can be vulnerable to psychological self-delusion. I might be impressed if he showed me that he's learned a bit about all the WTC explosions that have been documented, and can use some of his training as an architect to reason with me about it. I haven't seen that happen yet. And without that, it doesn't matter one bit who he claims to be.
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
147. having read through most of this thread by now...
...I am going to point something out to you. It's really simple too. It is entirely possible that you are the one suffering from a psychological self delusion. You want so badly for there to be something there that you see it, even with nothing being there to see. It happens with a lot of issues, particualrly ones as emotionally charged as you seem to find this one. I've read your sources. Months ago, and recently. I have also read the "official" reports you keep poo-pooing. As a rational, educated, and fairly worldly person I will say this in closing. There really isn't anything there. Not in the sources you keep quoting. If you come up with something rational and sound, from a reputable peer reviewed source, then by all means let us all know. We'd be more than happy to consider it. Until then...plane...building...boom...crash.
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KabalaPaulosLuterGWB Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #147
163. yes
"If you come up with something rational and sound, from a reputable peer reviewed source, then by all means let us all know. We'd be more than happy to consider it. Until then...plane...building...boom...crash."

and terrorists here and terrorist there and Mr. bush!! is right as well!
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #163
166. Now, now now...
...did I say Bush was right? Nope. I didn't. GOt enough words of my own don't need you loaning me any. Thanks anyway.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #147
210. Here's one newer reasonable source with lots of data.
Here's one reasonable source with plenty of information http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/toce.htm
By a team of German Engineers.

It's more up to date than the FEMA report that suggested the truss theory you probably heard. That truss theory has now been rejected by the Federal Agency that took over after FEMA and is trying to do a more thorough study. The "official" story you mention is simply out of date. Lots of official theories about why things happen later turn out to be wrong. You won't get anywhere just clinging to an out-of-date official theory!

People who can reasonably discuss various theories in relation to all the evidence, will eventually determine the truth of what happened to the WTC on 9/11. We will do it, and people who just make silly prejudicial remarks without even dealing with the evidence at hand. There were many explosions that happened at the WTC, I gave you some links with backgound data on it, and went on to discuss the question of where they came from. Some people were so blinded by their irrational deluded prejudice they couldn't even see what the evidence and point was!
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coda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #40
56. Ok. I was being facetious and now I'll say something.

You leave little room for discussion. You don't raise possibilities, you come at it as fact and people with engineering experience and education come on here and you're completely dismissive of
them. Rude in fact.

I'm no engineer, far from it, but it isn't plausible to me for other reasons. Why can't you consider even some basic things that TankLV is saying? Just take them and run with them as you have the bomb theories.

There is no good explanation for controlled demolition because it's uneccessarily redundant. That is probably the most striking thing to me. Can't you consider that? The amount of damage done by the planes was more than sufficient for war etc i.e.: the "trifecta". It wasn't neccessary for the towers to fall.

Not to mention that that kind of redundancy greatly increases the risk of being found out. Again, the amount of people killed on the floors above point of impact, the shock and horror of seeing people jumping from windows, the people on the planes, all of it completely sufficient. Terror. Horrible.

To insure that the towers came down would be UNECCESSARILY REDUNDANT AND WOULD HAVE HUGELY INCREASE THE RISK OF BEING FOUND OUT. UNNECCESSARY

You say that " The amount of energy required to do this was huge.."

For my non-engineers' opinion I would only say:

The impact of the planes, even if only dead weight IS a huge amount of energy.

Now this building has huge structural damage from the impact _PLUS_ the explosions and now it is burning.

The fuel burning WAS a huge amount of energy. The metal need only be weakened, not melted to a liquid state. The beams aren't encased in cement as in other buildings.

Now this badly weakened area that is being further weaked by fire now has one more HUGE amount of energy to contend with. The huge amount of static energy setting on top of this damaged area. The dozens of floors above it. If it gives suddenly, in any area, it is an amount of stress far exceeding what those damaged areas could possibly handle.


That's my take, anyway.

Again, I wish you consider it in the light that it was uneccessarily redundant, with little additional gain possible and certainly not from a risk/reward scenerio.

IMHO



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zoidberg Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #56
69. My reading is that the jet fuel fire didn't cause the collapse...
but the subsequent fires fueled by thousands of square feet of the contents of the WTC brought it down. It was destroyed by paper. William Langewiesche wrote a marvelous series of article for The Atlantic that became published as American Ground: Unbuilding the World Trade Center. He was given full access to the site of the WTC after the collapse and documented the tedious process of securing the site and beginning the process of clearing it. He pulls no punches, and caused a great deal of controversy by suggesting the some firemen looted the stores when they first arrived on the scene. He offers NO SUGGESTION AT ALL that there were any explosives involved. Read excepts here: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/07/langewiesche-excerpts.htm. Find the book just about anywhere.

The only 'sources' for the demolition theory have been half-baked internet websites. Until I see something from a source that is proved to have some sort of background, my full faith remains in the conventional wisdom.
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Eat_The_Rich Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #56
155. Your comment on the beams
Even though the beams in the WTC were not encased in concrete, the were covered with asbestos containing spray-on fireproofing. If I remember my figures correctly, structural steel covered with this type of fireproofing was supposed to withstand a temp of 1200 (F) for a period of two hours. These were UL test results. The reason any type of fireproofing is used on structrual steel is so that it does not warp. A building would be worthless if, after a fire, all of the floors looked like a rollercoaster. I am not a meatalurgist, so I cannot speculate on the relative loss of strength of the structural steel due to prolonged exposure to this type of heat.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #155
196. the type of spray on fire proofing that was used
you can wipe off with your hand. even in the best of circumstances there are many gaps and an impact such as these building absorbed would have shaken most of the shit off immediately in the areas surrounding impact. once you have exposed steel the heat travels thru it very well, thank you.

it was not the intumescent type which adheres like a paint, just a spray on fiberglass type of material, NOT asbestos. asbestos is a hazardous material that had not been used in building construction for over 25 years.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #40
99. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #99
101. "They defy the laws of physics." Example?
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 11:51 AM by gandalf
That would help, if we are to accept your statement.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #101
106. Pulverization
http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/plate7.htm

Their argument is that the entire building pulverized, presumably simultaneously. The problem is if the building pulverized in this manner, it wouldn't maintain its structural integrity and fall straight down like it did. If it pulverized in stages, then you don't need the argument that enormous amounts of external energy are required, because this means the upper floors were pancaking the lower floors, exactly as physics describes.

note: I'm going to be addressing each problem individual posts. Have patience

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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. Dust
http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/plate6.htm

Nonsense. I witnessed a controlled explosion of a building. There was dust all over the damn place.

Check this out.

http://www.startribune.com/idea/cgi-bin/theme.cgi?theme_id=912

Lotsa dust.

So they want a concrete building to fall down without dust?
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #110
114. Things fall down and go boom
http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/plate14.htm

They're complaining that the facade fell straight down. Where was it supposed to fall? Sideways?

This argues against their explosion theory. Any explosions would be forcing stuff out. Pancaking forces it down.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #114
119. The Pirelli Building
http://www.skyscrapers.com/re/en/wm/bu/110920/

...was built in 1958 using old-style monolithic construction techniquess to hold up a facade of glass. A small, slow moving older aircraft struck the building, maintained most of its integrity and broke every pane of glass in sight.

The World Trade Centre was built using modern, bleeding edge construction techniques. The shell of the building is crucial to the integrity of the building. The panes of glass are small. A large, new, lightweight plane exploded on impact and threw debris all over the place. One of the engines ended up on the street.

Here's a thought experiment. Take a sheet of glass and hit it with a hammer. Blooey - glass everywhere. Now hit a heavy cardboard box with a light bulb. The box is in good shape, but the bulb is in a bazillion pieces.

They're comparing apples and oranges.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #119
123. Mind reading
http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/plate17.htm

The assumption is that bin Laden planned for all the buildings to collapse. There's no evidence of any such thing.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #123
129. make liquids magically stop moving
http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/plate32.htm

The plane (with the jetex inside the wings) is zipping along at well over 100 miles per hour. I make that at least 145 feet per second. In addition, there's an explosion going on, propelling fuel in front of it. The fuel is stored in the wings so they disintegrate (as you can see in the photographs on other pages). Somehow, they want to fuel to magically stop and only be one side of the building instead of going to every available exit (note, the fuel does not travel through the concrete core).

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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #129
132. Concrete behaves like glass
http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/plate48.htm

The left picture shows the results of a large airplane hitting a glass and steel building.

The right picture shows the results of a small airplane hitting a glass and steel building.

The Pentagon is built like a brick shithouse. See http://www.architectureweek.com/2003/0212/news_1-1.html.

Nevertheless, they expect heavily reinforced concrete to behave like glass. Go figure.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. Fast moving planes pose for the camera
http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/plate43.htm

An aircraft going well over a hundred miles per hour (145 ft per second) passes a surveilance camera shooting pictures intermittantly (let's pretend one per second). They want the plane to stop, motionless, for several frames so we can get a pretty picture of it.

The plane explodes into a bazillion pieces on impact, hitting a brick shithouse, throwing pieces all over the sky. You can see them. Then they wonder where the debris is. Oh, right, the plane stopped in midair so its picture could be taken. Sorry, forgot.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #133
136. Explosions stop in midair, smoke reverses direction
http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/plate18.htm

They claim that a powerful blast blew the front off the building on the left. Strange how the contents of the rooms behind the obvious destruction are basically intact. Strange how the debris went down, not in the direction of the blast. That's because the explosion blew out the beams supporting the front facade. It followed the rules of physics and went down. The front of the building, having lost its support, collapsed up to the next column of beams.

The picture on the right shows a building being demolished using explosions. The smoke is on the bottom. According to the explanation for the Towers, the smoke is supposed to be on top. Make up your mind.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #136
140. Plane disappears in midair
http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/plate37.htm

Remember the cardboard box? Punch a hole in it with your fist. Examine the results. Compare it to the hole (if any) from the lightbulb. See those flaps? See the lines?

They see three little holes. I see one big one, just about the size of a plane fuselage.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #140
150. Energy gets applied only to dust, not surrounding structures
http://www.justiceforwoody.org/re911/papers/volumev2.html

So he wants to inject 100 times the extra energy into the system and have it only affect the smoke, not the surrounding buildings, and he only wants it to go horizontally, not vertically. And it doesn't affect the towers at all, or it affects all sides of the towers simultaneously and with the same vector, otherwise the towers would topple.
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #150
174. Thanks for your info. I will check that
n/t
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:10 AM
Response to Original message
45. What about that other building that imploded ?

Fake Terror installs Police State



Pentagon -- Security camera Total Fucken Hoax




http://www.passitkit.com/planes.htm

"Missing" Pentagon Attack Jet Found At Last!
Flight 77 shown in death dive as Ehud Barak demands attack on Iraq

UUUUHH I THOUGHT THEY SAID IT CAME IN SIX FEET ABOUT THE GROUND

GET THE SPIN STRAIGHT

http://www.msnbc.com/news/720851.asp?cp1=1

At this link you can play frame by frame and see first 1 frame doesn't match the rest

Do you have any idea how big a 757 is? 50 ft. tall The Building is 80 ft. I don't see one

Official Government story claiming plain plowed into building doing 350 mph. at 6 Ft. above
(snip)
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Fixated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. .....
That first link....the one with the American flag with the swastika on it, is just idiotic. It DID knock over light poles. Several were knocked over. In fact, I know people that saw the plane make its entrance. And as for Dave, after visiting that first link I can tell you that your sources suck. That was such a load of BS, I couldn't stomach it. Their pictures of holes in the WTC (they didn't account for fallen debris within the building) was god friggin awful. Their descriptions of the fireball (as if it was three seperate and not one fireball) was ridiculous. There was more, but my eyes started to bleed.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Symbolism if for superstitious people, I am just asking about that....
other building that see colapse at that site

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/print.php?id=34507
Vancouver Independent Media Center
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Original article is at http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2003/02/34507.php
THE MEDIA LIED ABOUT THE FIRES AT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER
by A • Thursday February 27, 2003 at 06:00 PM


This article demonstrates that the fires at the World Trade Center were nothing like as severe as reported by the lying media.


THE JET FUEL; HOW HOT DID IT HEAT
THE WORLD TRADE CENTER?


Imagine that the entire quantity of jet fuel from the aircraft was injected into just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with the perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor and that no heat escaped this floor by conduction. With these ideal assumptions we calculate the maximum temperature that this one floor could have reached.

"The Boeing 767 is capable of carrying up to 23,980 gallons of fuel and it is estimated that, at the time of impact, each aircraft had approximately 10,000 gallons of unused fuel on board (compiled from Government sources)."

Quote from the FEMA report into the collapse of WTC's One and Two (Chapter Two).

Since the aircraft were only flying from Boston to Los Angeles, they would have been nowhere near fully fueled on takeoff (the aircraft have a maximum range of 7,600 miles). They would have carried just enough fuel for the trip together with some safety factor. Remember, that carrying excess fuel means higher fuel bills and less paying passengers. The aircraft would have also burnt some fuel between Boston and New York.

What we propose to do, is to pretend that the entire 10,000 gallons of jet fuel was injected into just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with the perfect quantity of oxygen, that no hot gases left this floor and that no heat escaped this floor by conduction. With these ideal assumptions (none of which were meet in reality) we will calculate the maximum temperature that this one floor could have reached. Of course, on that day, the real temperature rise of any floor due to the burning jet fuel, would have been considerably lower than the rise that we calculate, but this estimate will enable us to demonstrate that the "official" explanations are lies.

Note that a gallon of jet fuel weighs about 3.1 kilograms, hence 10,000 gallons weighs 10,000 x 3.1 = 31,000 kgs.

Jet fuel is a colorless, combustible, straight run petroleum distillate liquid. Its principal uses are as an ingredient in lamp oils, charcoal starter fluids, jet engine fuels and insecticides.

It is also know as, fuel oil #1, kerosene, range oil, coal oil and aviation fuel.

It is comprised of hydrocarbons with a carbon range of C9 - C17. The hydrocarbons are mainly alkanes CnH2n+2, with n ranging from 9 to 17
(snip)
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Fixated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #50
104. ...
The jet fuel burned hot enough to make people jump 100 stories to their deaths, didn't it?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. I like how they fold the money to get the WTC pictures...
http://www.passitkit.com/planes.htm

...down at the bottom of the passitkit.com page. The five, ten, twenty and fifty shows the WTC before the crash, after the crash, and even during the collapse! How long have we had the current back design of the US currency? You mean the WTC towers were planned to be demolished that long????

Oh, wait. The point is it's the redesigned currency that does this. In other words, it's Bill Clinton's fault.

Wow. Pass it, Kit. :smoke:

So why doesn't it surprise me that the index page for this information is selling synthetic urine to be used to pass drug tests?

http://www.passitkit.com

Call me cynical, but maybe someone selling synthetic urine realizes that his target audience would believe that a plane didn't hit the Pentagon and that the WTC towers were demolished with controlled explosives? Dude? It's a total fucken hoax, man!
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. Did you try the synthetic urine to see if it works?
Of course, that really doesn't have much to do with the argument anyway. But some of these methods have gotten people past some tests so they don't become another sad statistic about how our country has come to jail a bigger percentage of citizens than any other developed country. Avoid being a casualty of hypocricy if you can! :)
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #45
76. What plane?
All I see is an explosion. There is no plane in that video. Shouldn't there be one?
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #76
168. Thank you for thinking for yourself!
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 02:47 PM by Dancing_Dave
The people who designed Democracy assumed that Citizens would have some critical intelligence like you. Unfortuneately, some people in this forum don't have what it takes to give me any hope that American Democracy is likely to survive. The Bush Regime has taken away so much of it already, but most people here don't seem to have the critical thinking skills to give that gang anyproblems. IF AND WHEN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE RECOVER ENOUGH TO INTELLIGENCE TO SEE THROUGH ALL THE LIES OF 9/11, THE BUSH REGIME WILL FALL! And not's going to come down any other way.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #76
232. No
Not if it's flying faster than the frame rate on the camera, which on a survalience camera is quite slow.

I know witnesses to seeing the plane hit the Pentagon, there are hundreds of them, the Pentagon sits in the middle of several highways which were crowded with traffic that morning. Only the "earth is flat" types doubt the plane hit the Pentagon.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #232
238. Save your breath
These people don't believe in anything that will alter their mindset.

Reminds me of conservatives.
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Oracle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:36 AM
Response to Original message
51. Be ready to be called a "kook"
But your indeed right and on to something!
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. Einstein was called a kook at first too....
So it really doesn't bother me. Thanks for having an open mind! :)
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #55
60. A dose of reality: the vast majority of those called kooks
...are not Einsteins: they are just kooks.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
52. two honest questions . . .
1) at what temperature does jet fuel burn?

2) what temperature is required to melt steel?
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #52
57. Good observation!
If jet fuel burned at temerature to melt steel, it would melt the jet engines which are made out of steel! Indeed, jet fuel is essentially just kerosine, which is burned in metal lamps that get no where near melting as a result. Steel melts at about 2,800 degrees f. There's no way to burn jet fuel that will even get you within a thousand degrees of that high.
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #57
92. Nonsense. Kerosene burns in a jet engine at temperatures close to 2000
CELSIUS. It doesn't melt the engine because more than half the air going into the turbine is ambient and cools the mix down to safe levels.

Now, I really don't give a rusty fuck whether you believe me or not, I am a commercial pilot and an aeronautical engineer and I know what I'm talking about, unlike someone I could name.
:grr:
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #92
198. Perhaps true, but it's a bit beside the point.
The subject of my piece is all the explosions that went off around the WTC complex on 9/11. Whether or not the fuel melted any steel, there is plenty of video, photographic and eyewitness evidence of these explosions occuring. Check out http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html and then you'll be able to say something intelligent about this.

You sound like you know enough physics to realize that metal is an extremely good conducter of heat. There was an enormous amount of steel in WTC conducting any heat from the burning floors away. This is why never once in history has such a steel framed buidling melted in a fire. And most of the fuel from the second plane burned outside the South Tower, because it just hit a corner. The amount of kerosine that splashed into the building could only produce heat that could very easily be conducted away and dissipated in the massive steel structure.

And it wouldn't have created all those explosions around the WTC complex, which is really the focus of this piece of writing. People get so blinded by prejudice they can't even see what this is about!
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #198
206. Do you even have a cogent point?
There was an enormous amount of steel in WTC conducting any heat from the burning floors away. This is why never once in history has such a steel framed buidling melted in a fire.

I'm sorry, was someone actually arguing that point?

And most of the fuel from the second plane burned outside the South Tower, because it just hit a corner. The amount of kerosine that splashed into the building could only produce heat that could very easily be conducted away and dissipated in the massive steel structure.


Wow. So you've never heard of load shifting, hmmmm?

Look at it this way: dispense with the assumption that the jet fuel was the only significant combustible at the scene. Every office building I've been to holds LOTS of paper, plus carpeting, wood and plastic furniture, and who knows what else. If a wood fire can make it possible for a blacksmith to twist an iron bar like a pretzel then a few tons of burning plastic, kerosene and wood fed by air from below can work wonders with girders. And did so.

The temperature of burning jet fuel is dependent on the rate of the reaction plus the temperature of the fuel and air. What happened was the jet fuel rained down the elevator shafts and started burning, preheating the air and starting a huge convection draft. This draft of preheated air increased the speed of the combustion to the point of acusing failure of the upper story structure. Once this collapsed, the entire building collapsed.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #206
209. No wonder you're called Character Assasin!
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 05:40 PM by Dancing_Dave
Never once in history has a fire like you're taiking about, or any fire, caused a steel framed building to collapse. The structure can handle everything you're talking about easily.

But the topic of my article is all the EXPLOSIONS that happend in WTC complex. I gave you some links describing them, and I could give you more. People get so blinded by their prejudice that they can't even get the basic point!

American's will have to recover their independent-minded intelligence and research skill, and move beyond that prejudice which the men who created our Democracy hated -- or our Democracy, our civilization and our way of life will simply perish. This kind of government presumes that the Citizens have much more independent minded intelligence than most DU'rs show when this kind of topic comes up!
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #209
212. So, no, you've never heard of load shifting. Thanks for clearing that up
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #209
215. i don't know why i am wasting my time but
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 06:21 PM by steviet_2003
fires cause steel framed building to collapse ALL THE TIME!!!! it is one of the, if not the most common causes of building collapse!!!! there are numerous of textbooks on the subject, sheesh!!

this really is ridiculous.

on edit: no keyboard skills
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #52
58. Which is more B.S because of so many other things that would be....
needed. Frankly I don't think they had any cutting torches in them planes (little joke). Here check this out from the link above

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/print.php?id=34507
(snip)
Summarizing:

We have assumed that the entire quantity of jet fuel from the aircraft was injected into just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with the perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor and that no heat escaped this floor by conduction.

We have found that it is impossible the jet fuel, by itself, raised the temperature of this floor beyond 280° C (536° F).

Now this temperature is nowhere near high enough to even begin explaining the World Trade Center Tower collapse.

It is not even close to the first critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F) where steel loses about half its strength and it is nowhere near the quotes of 1500° C that we constantly read about in our lying media.

"In the mid-1990s British Steel and the Building Research Establishment performed a series of six experiments at Cardington to investigate the behavior of steel frame buildings. These experiments were conducted in a simulated, eight-story building. Secondary steel beams were not protected. Despite the temperature of the steel beams reaching 800-900° C (1,500-1,700° F) in three of the tests (well above the traditionally assumed critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F), no collapse was observed in any of the six experiments."

Quote from the FEMA report (Appendix A).

So, once again, you have been lied to by the media, are you surprised?


Download the entire www.nerdcities.com/guardian site
as one 16 Megabyte file.
(snip)

I never really thought about these little details before. I done enough plate welding a cutting of heavy stock metal that this has got to be a whole lot crap about the jet fuel melting them beams.

Wasn't there also a story about them being coated with some type of fireproofing agent. Not only that but that cement sucks up the heat so fast itself (sort of like a heat sink) it makes it even more difficult to imagine. How come there was never was any real investigation on any of this stuff?
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #52
89. Remarks
ad 1): Jet fuel fire was not relevant for weakening the steel, because the fuel was quickly consumed (cf. my post #80 for source).
ad 2): Melting was not necessary, the official story only needs weakening of the steel, that would happen below the melting point.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 05:23 AM
Response to Original message
61. after reading through this whole thread
I wonder why so many people are so willing to ridicule anyone who questions the official version of 9/11? Like in this ONE instance BushCo can be completely believed, while everything else they touch is manipulated? Why the closed-mindedness, hm?
I'm not going to pretend to know ANYthing about any of it--my priorities have been on other aspects of BushCo and I have not delved into this at all--but even if I hadn't seen a few things that really brought questions into my mind, I've seen enough manipulation of facts by this administration, enough evildoing and complete and total disregard for conscience and truth to sincerely believe that the whole idea of a coordinated installation of explosives to ensure that the buildings and planes would be completely pulverized is quite fathomable. Someone mentions above that explosives would be overkill--well, how EXACTLY would someone know that ahead of time? I have to admit I have SERIOUS DOUBTS that one plane hitting each of those buildings would wreak such total devastation. But even if I didn't have doubts I certainly wouldn't ridicule those who did. Seems like an awful lot of people around here who want us to get into unquestioning lockstep with the official version of things and that does surprise me.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #62
77. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #61
81. Good point.
Everybody is free to believe the official version.
But those who do not should not be ridiculed.
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #61
211. They deserve ridicule, because they say stupid things.
And don't use common sense or logic.

This has nothing to do with trusting Bush or believing everything the press says.

This tale is so preposterous on so many levels that it defies ridicule.

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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #211
217. actually I see a lot of logic being applied
but not in your post.

all your post says is "you have a theory, or entertain a question that I can't possibly picture, therefore you are a horse's azz"

all they're saying is, "the WTC Trifecta has really had great consequences for BushCo/PNAC, it was very serendipitous for their agenda. We see irregularities. Therefore, there might be more than meets the eye."

People follow clues and come up with ridiculous theories--but that's the process of digging out the truth. Begins with speculations. Why do people get SO twisted by that?? Does that somehow threaten you?
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AmeriCanadian Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 05:42 AM
Response to Original message
63. Ockham's Razor
Nope, Saudi Ariabian terrorists brought those towers down. As much as I despise BushCo, they had nothing directly to do with the planning of 9/11.

``Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate''
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #63
87. Ockam's razor: a sledgehammer?
You offered an opinion.
That is not the method of Ockam's razor.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #63
218. Who said anything about BushCo?
Gee, you sound like the guy who blurts out, "so how'd he die?" when the tricky detective has said only that the other guy is "missing."

The question is WHETHER there was some rigging of explosives or SOMEthing coordinated with the planes. Could have been "Saudi Arabian terrorists"--or Saudi BFEEPNACCarlylian terrorists. Haven't gotten to that part yet.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #218
221. How about opportunity
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 09:43 PM by TrogL
When did they have the opportunity, in a building crawling with people and security guards, to plant enough explosives to bring down a buildin?. To do the job perfectly, they would need them on every floor.

I'm an network administrator. As soon as anybody goes near the ceiling or the wiring closets, I'm right there finding out who's doing what and how it will affect the network. You blink at network cable and it breaks, especially fibre.

(Fixed spelling)
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #218
239. Saudi Arabian terrorists--or Saudi BFEEPNACCarlylian terrorists?
As if there were a difference?

Osama Bin Laden was and is an employee of the CIA and a friend of the Bush family. That is a fact that must never be forgotten.

The friends of the BCE are as bad as the family themselves. John Hinkley was another family friend. Remember him?

And there's always Grandpa Prescott's good buddy Adolph Hitler.
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
64. It would seem
The bowl of flowers in Douglas Adam's "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" said it best:

"Oh no, not again."

If they were gong to bomb the buildings, why run planes into them? couldn't a bomb be considered an act of terrorism?

I don't think all conspiracy theories are nuts, but it is nice when the theory is necessary.

We know the building's were designed in a manner that would make them collapse as they did. That is established.

We know the potential energy of the two towers was equal to roughly 1/10 of the Hiroshima's blast energy.

We know that the towers were designed to withstand the impact of a 707, the planes that hit it were much bigger and loaded with jet fuel, which contains more energy than an equal volume of gunpowder.

At best, any explosive energy outside of the planes impact and subsequnet fuel explosions and fire would be redundant -- not to mention a logistical nightmare to plant and detonate them.

We can surmize that if bombs existed, it would be easier (and improve the political benefits) to blame them on the terrorist rather than cover them up if they existed.

So in summary, we have no motive, we have no recovered evidence to suggest additional firepower.

This reminds me of the "Pentagon wasn't really hit by a plane" nonsense that contradicted the hundereds of witnesses driving in cars, or riding the Metro.

I understand we live in a time where it is really hard to trust those in the media and the government -- and with good reason. I don't doubt there are some really dark secrets involving 9/11.

But lets face it. No one would go to the trouble and chance of discovery in order to plant bombs that would add little or no effect to the exposive power unleashed by the hijacked airliners.

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birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #64
70. Aliens remove Elvis appendix on space ship
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Arkady Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #64
84. Tinfoil Hat Time
This reminds me of the "Pentagon wasn't really hit by a plane" nonsense that contradicted the hundereds of witnesses driving in cars, or riding the Metro.

Argh! My college roommate was working on the Hill at the time. He was driving on I-395 heading into the District when he saw the plane crash into the Pentagon. He saw the whole damn thing, clear as the nose on my face. There are probably hundreds of people who saw the crash. Of course, they could all be paid members of the giant BushCo. conspiracy. How big is this conspiracy, anyway?

This reminds me of Conservatives being convinced that Clinton had Vince Foster and Ron Brown murdered and that he was involved in running cocaine in the 80's. To conspiracy theorists, lack of evidence if PROOF of a conspiracy.

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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
65. HORSESHIT!
THIS IS COMPLETE HORSESHIT!

POST THIS CRAP IN 'MILITARY AFFAIRS AND TERRORISM' AND LEAVE THE GROWNUPS ALONE.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
72. Marvin Bush's company "Securacom" had the security contracts on WTC, ....
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 09:00 AM by ElsewheresDaughter
Uniter Airlines and Dulles Airport on 911...if that means anything
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm


Bush-Linked Company Handled Security for the WTC, Dulles and United
by Margie Burns

George W. Bush's brother was on the board of directors of a company providing electronic security for the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport and United Airlines, according to public records. The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp., also linked for years to the Bush family.

The security company, formerly named Securacom and now named Stratesec, is in Sterling, Va.. Its CEO, Barry McDaniel, said the company had a ``completion contract" to handle some of the security at the World Trade Center ``up to the day the buildings fell down."

It also had a three-year contract to maintain electronic security systems at Dulles Airport, according to a Dulles contracting official. Securacom/Stratesec also handled some security for United Airlines in the 1990s, according to McDaniel, but it had been completed before his arriving on the board in 1998.

McDaniel confirmed that the company has security contracts with the Department of Defense, including the U.S. Army, but did not detail the nature of the work, citing security concerns. It has an ongoing line with the General Services Administration - meaning that its bids for contracts are noncompetitive - and also did security work for the Los Alamos laboratory before 1998.

more...
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
74. I believe that, too, Dancing Dave.....and much more that some dismiss
as "kookiness" or "foolishness". FEMA was ALREADY IN PLACE near the WTC on September 10th, by their own admission on a Dan Rather interview held on Sept. 17th. (Do a google..)

Too many people -- including fire-fighters who were in communication with their counterparts inside the WTC -- heard several explosions on different floors of the buildings, and so stated on the 11th and 12th during interviews, which have since been cut and disappeared. Many citizens also heard those explosions, and stated same to news interviewers at the time. Again...we never get a "replay" of those pieces of the news, but I saw it with my own eyes. We also don't get "replays" of the interviews about those "Puts" that were purchased on American and United airlines, which I ALSO heard with my own ears, and saw on TV at the time.

I have absolutely no doubt that the entire truth of 9/11 will NEVER be known by the general public, because the extent of the complicity was so vast and so well-coordinated by powerful people with vested interest.

There are a whole slew of people who have come to DU to pooh-pooh ANYTHING that doesn't fall in lock-step with what they have a need (or salary) to believe. Too bad....I remember when there weren't so many trying to thwart investigative research on this board.

:kick::kick::kick::kick:
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #74
91. Ever heard something extremely heavy fall?
What do you think the sound of one WTC floor falling on the next one down would have sounded like? An explosion perhaps?
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
75. You had me interested until the MOSSAD stuff
The whole "Israel did it" line of thinking causes me to dismiss the rest of the article. Israel warned the Bush administration twice about the threat, specifically mentioning planes as weapons. If Israel was behind it, they wouldn't have warned us. I'm more likely to believe that the CIA planted bombs around the buildings than the MOSSAD.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #75
78. That is why they warned us.
To keep the suspicion off of them.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
79. This is silly.
Two jumbo jets filled with fuel flew into the twin towers, which ultimately led to their collapse.

There weren't explosives.
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. Not that simple
If you read the FEMA reports, it is not that simple.
Fuel: Most of the fuel burnt within the first few minutes (FEMA report, page 2-22). So the fire that should have led to the collapse would have been a normal office fire, since the fuel was all consumed when the towers ultimately collapsed, after 1:43 hours (WTC 1).
However, never before a high-rise building had collapsed due to fire.
The impact of the airplanes alone would not have caused the buildings to collapse (cf. p. 2-37).
So the argument of FEMA is that only the combination of these two events together could have caused the collapse.
But the arguments they present are not that clear, obvious and convincing that it is impossible to doubt the reasoning. In the report, e.g., they do not explain if the office fires that remained after the jet fuel was consumed would have been hot enough to weaken the steel. The black smoke visible later after the impact would indicate lower temperatures, due to lacking oxygen.
And, after the all, the building was designed to withstand the impact of a plane – admittedly a smaller one than a Boeing 767. But this Boeing was not fully loaded, not with people, not with fuel.
In my opinion, it is not silly to discuss bombs, especially because there were many witnesses who reported explosions.


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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #79
94. the data is in conflict with you conclusion.
photos and video show there were several explosions not directly related to the towers.
your saying it is silly doesn't explain it away.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #79
125. what happened to WT7 -------------------------------- MPEG
http://globalfreepress.com/movs/911/wtc-7_collapse.mpg

:shrug:

was that addressed in the 911 report?

peace
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Bushknew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #125
169. BRILLIANT POST BPILGRIM / 2+2 = EXPLOSIVES
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 02:51 PM by Bushknew

This is the first time I see this.

How could THAT building fall so evenly.

2+2 = explosives.
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #169
171. I've seen that video too.
It is by no means conclusive.
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Bushknew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #171
195. Well you convinced me!

Sarcasm off
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King_Crimson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #79
126. Do I detect a dash of sarcasm there Skinner?
Of course any fool can see that the airliners alone brought the buildings down! Explosives...hah!
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
82. Hi there, please bear with me
I'm not posting from my normal computer, hence I can't provide links, etc to back some stuff up, but if you do the search yourself you can probably find them.

I worked as a fireman for a long while. What struck me about the WTC strike and subsequent "explanation" is that anybody with any kind of rudimentary knowledge of how fire works would cry bullshit.

First off let us examine the scene before the towers collapse. In the north tower(where the first plane inserted itself almost squarely into the side of the building) we are shown endless minutes of vast quantities of smoke roiling out of the building. While to the untrained this might mean that there is a lot of fire up there, in all actuality quite the opposite is happening, the fire is being smothered. A little thought experiment for you, remember when you douse a campfire how smoke billows up once you start to apply water? The same basic principle was at work in the north tower. The water sprinklers came on(there are eyewitness reports of this), most modern buildings for the past fifty years have used fire retardent materials, plastics and paper don't burn that hot(paper ignition is at 415 degrees and the hottest you can get paper with forced air ventalation is aprox 800 degrees, everyday plastics and nylons rarely get over 900 degrees). And jet fuel, which is essentially kerosene burns at a constant 800 degrees, which is nowhere close to the melting point of structural steel, or for that matter nowhere near the temp that would be required to weaken steel, which occurs at aprox 1100 degrees(depending on the exact makeup of the steel).

There have been explanations that the fire was force fed O2, thus pumping up the temprature. Not so, for two reasons. There are no reports from either office workers or firemen in the building of being either short of breath or encountering any great winds while in the building. If the fire was sucking in enough air to force the temp upwards even 100 degrees people would have noticed and reported it(I've been in forest fires that were sucking up the air, and the winds reach upwards of 60mph when this happens).

But still, the evidence is there for all to see. Those pictures of the North Tower putting out tons of smoke, with little or no flames shooting out. This is a fire that is reletively speaking, barely burning, that is being smothered by the sprinkler system and the materials that it encounters. This is also verified by the audio tapes of the fire fighters inside the building. They are saying at the time, on the scene that they need only three lines to put out this fire, THREE HOSES! This is a fire that can be fought and controlled, not some out of control monster that is weakening steel and will soon collapse the building. And yet it did come down, but judging from my experience it wasn't fire that did it.

Let's turn our attention to the south tower. This is the one where the plane hit the corner. What did we all see there, a very large fireball go spraying out all over. Using standard building measurements, one story equaling fifteen feet, the fireball was aprox. ninety feet in diameter along it's vertical axis and aprox 150 feet along it's horizontal axis. More than likely at least half the fuel it was carrying was burned up in that fireball. Half of the fuel that was needed to supposedly weaken the steel in building. Interesting is it not, that the building with half of the ignition agent already burned away is the one that collapsed from "weakened steel" first.

And yet, similar scenes were issuing out of the south tower as those that came out of the north tower. Smoke, lots and lots of roiling smoke. Remember the thought experiment above? Yes, this too was a fire that was being suppressed. The sprinklers were spraying away, the fire retardent material were slowing down the fire, and once again firefighters and witnesses in the building did not report any massive winds that would stoke the blaze. And yet this is the building that collapsed first. From weakened steel. Pretty much straight down. Sorry, but I have to call it BS.

Consider this simple bit of physics, you can try it out yourself if you wish. Take a candle and one of those butane BBQ lighters. Point the lighter perpindicular to the candle about 1/3 of the way down from the top. Turn on the lighter so the flame reaches the candle, but doesn't light it up. The wax softens, weakens, and the candle collapse over to one side, towards the flame. The candle falls in the direction of which it is being weakened. Not straight down, not to the side opposite the hear source, but towards the side that is weakened first. Steel(and anything else) obeys this simple law of physics. The origin of the fire in the south tower was corner in which the plane hit. Yet the video of the south tower collapsing shows the tower initially tilting AWAY from the ignition source about ten degrees before going straight down along with the rest of the building. Unusual to say the least.

And yet we are still being told that a paper and kerosene fire weakened the structural steel, in the absence of forced air, causing these towers to collapse straight down. One last experiment for you.
Find yourself a kerosene heater, light it up and hold a piece of 1/16th inch steel in the flames for a long while(thirty to forty five minutes is good). Take it out of the flames and look at it. Bang on it with a hammer. See how weak it is. And then tell me how kerosene, paper and plastic are supposed to fuel a fire to the point where structural steel weakens and bends.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #82
88. Well said! And that's what many others saw happening.
The "official" version doesn't hold water, but the media/government brainwashing seems to have been very effective.

:kick:
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #88
116. Yes I agree
We all saw the truth right there in front of us, but were repeatedly told the Big Lie by the media and government for so long and so loud that we came to believe in it instead of the truth.

Somewhere in Hell Hitler and Goebbels are laughing their ass off, watching their Big Lie maxim being put to such effective use once again.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #82
90. Question
The initial hit could have weakened the structure so that when the heat warped (not completely weakened) the steel the floor, which I imagine was heavy, fell onto the floor below it. Could this not casue a domino effect, each floor that fell produced a greater mass to fall on the next thus imploding the tower?

The 'explosions' were most likely caused by the extremely heavy mass of the floors collapsing within the building. If you've ever worked on or near a construction zone you may know that when a heavy object drops it sounds like a explosion. I have never seen anything the size of a full floor of the World trade center fall but I imagine the sound would be incredible.

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #90
113. This is possible, however a bit doubtful because. . .
The Towers were designed to take the impact of a Boeing 707. I know it was 757s that hit them, but the difference in size and weight is negligable. And every structural engineer I know(and yes, I know a few) always, always overengineers their building's tolerances anyway. The few floors whose outer walls were destroyed don't matter, for as any architect or engineer can tell you, the outer wall is simply a curtain wall, designed to withstand the weather and hold it's own weight up, but not designed to be a load bearing wall for the whole structure. And as I pointed out earlier, I think that it is highly unlikely that the temprature of the fire got anywhere near the point needed to weaken structural steel. So while yes, your scenario is possible, I think it is highly unlikely.

I do agree with you though that the "explosive" noises could have been floors collaping onto each other, I've heard such big things drop and wondered what blew up. But there are a couple of points out there to dispute this conclusion. First, firemen and other witnesses reported hearing explosions before the towers started to collapse(and these were people who were both inside and outside the Towers). Second, there is a video out there on the net that what taken with a tripod mounted camera from a building next to the WTC. Right before the South Tower started to go, you see this camera shake sharply and briefly, like an explosion had just gone off and shook the whole area. Then the south tower fell. Like I said earlier, I'm not at my normal computer so I can't provide links, but I'm sure a little digging around the net and you'll find it. Granted, somebody could have bumped or shook the camera at just the right second, but I have a little trouble believing in such coincedences especially when there is other evidence out there that points away from the coincedence theory.
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #113
141. diff between a 707 and a 757 neglible???
Woh man, pass me some of that stuff you are smoking!
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #141
148. Reletively speaking, yes negligble
The Boeing 757 is twenty yards longer, with a 6 ft shorter wingspan and carrying less weight(3000 pounds) than the Boeing 707. I think we could safely that negligble is the word that we could apply.

Here, check it out for yourself:
<http://flyaow.com/planes.htm>
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #113
143. let's end this stupidity
first, someone above already stated that a 757 is much larger than a 707. second, the WTC were designed so that the outer skin WAS bearing, each of the verticals was an exterior column with the floors essentially spanning between the core and the exterior bearing wall. third, from my american institute of steel construction, steel construction manual, ninth edition, page 6-3, "As examples of the decreased ratio levels obtained at elevated temperature, the yield strength ratios for carbon and high-strength low-alloy steels are approximately 0.77 at 800 Deg. F, 0.63 at 1000 Deg. F., and 0.37 at 1200 Deg. F." (that means at 1200 deg., the steel is only 37% as strong as it normally would be at 70 deg.) fourth, steel expands when heated. i just calculated that for a 100' span at 800 deg. f. it would expand over 6". also from the AISC manual, "Connections require special attention to make sure that the stresses induced by a fire....have not sheared or loosened bolts or rivets, or cracked welds."

SOOOOOOOO, with nearly a third of the structural support taken out by the crash (and the corner is the most vulnurable location) and temperatures (much higher than those noted above) working against the remaining steel (neglect the silly spray-on fireproofing, you can blow it off) it was a FUCKING miracle and testament to the sefety factors built into the structural engineering that the towers stood long enough to get as many people out as they did.

the way they collapsed is perfectly normal for a pancaking collapse. didn't ya hear? gravity SUCKS. everything falls straight down. if the buildings had been blown at their base in a corner maybe they would have toppled somewhat like a tree, but they weren't, they pancaked.

i am an architect, my dad and partner is an architect and a structural engineer. my major was architecture-technology and i have read all the trade journals on the collapse. the bfee may be able to buy off many but the forensic structural engineers and fire protection engineers i have read were not among them. their science is sound.

SO THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #143
144. Architects are part of the conspiracy
Don't you understand?

The conspiracy starts decades ago. First all architects had to have been educated with foolish theorys on engineer so that years later their foolish theorys would support the official reason why the towers collapsed.

As we all know, if you don't agree, that is proof that you are part of the conspiracy!
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #144
151. HAH
i'm busted!!!
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #144
225. I WANT MY MONEY!
I haven't gotten my big fat paycheck for being part of this grand conspiracy!

I WANT MY MONEY - WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

OK, then, how 'bout some chocolate?! Hmmmmmm? Pretty please?

By the way:

I just love ol' W. Always vote repuke. Big repuke contributor. My side job is partnering w/Ollie North! Can't wait to see him legally re-elected just like the last time!

The above perfectly matches every single thing I've posted here for over 2 years!

(sarcasm off)

Come, we go puke now together!
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #143
157. But here you are contributing to the stupidity
And you, an architect, I'm shocked!

First off, I just provided the link to Boeing specs above, here they are again<http://flyaow.com/planes.htm>. Judging by the these specs, the difference between a 707 and a 757 is minor, and with the weight/velocity equation in effect, the WTC towers should have held against the 757 better than a 707, since the 707 weighs more.

Second, you're an architect and you're telling me that the outside walls of the towers were structurally load bearing walls? Remind me not contract with you when I want my sky scraper built. Any structural engineer would tell you that making your outside walls load bearing for the structure PLUS ask those same walls to withstand high winds and weather is asking to have your tower blow over in the first time a good nor'easter blows in.

Third, you are giving melting points for low alloy steel. Tsk tsk, most structural steel for the past half century have been high alloy, just to strengthen it and allow the metal to stand up to the stresses of modern buildings. High alloy also equals higher melting/weakening points. Perhaps you should go read a few more trade journals eh. In fact if you read a few more of those journals you would find out that there are engineers over in Japan and elsewhere who are now doing experiments with HIGHER alloy steel, so as to make sky scrapers(and oil platforms, etc.) even more impervious to natural and artificial stresses. And while you're reading those journals, you might take a note of the time frame required to get the melting/weakening effects you want. It really is quite long

And yes, gravity sucks. But it is also an unbreakable law of physics. If you take out the side of a building, the building will collapse towards the side that is missing, not straight down. Likewise, if you heat an object on predominantly one side, the object will weaken and collapse towards the side that is being heated, not the opposite side, not straight down. If the pancaking theory you put forward was so easy to do, then demolition experts would be out of business, 'cause then any shmo could blow up just one side of a building and count on it to pancake down. But gee, since there is that unbreakable law called gravity, one has to have many carefully placed charges to demolish a building. Not just one, on one side, with a bogus fire that was being smothered. Darn those laws of physics.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #157
160. Read it and weep
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc.php

The 208-foot wide facade is, in effect, a prefabricated steel lattice, with columns on 39-inch centers acting as wind bracing to resist all overturning forces; the central core takes only the gravity loads of the building.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #160
172. Thank you, you've proved my point
That the outer walls are basicaly curtain wall designed to withstand the winds and weather, while the "grunt work" of support resides with the center strucural steel beams. Thanks!
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #172
179. That's a fine example of "argument" needed to defend the non-newtonian
...theories: twisting

"The 208-foot wide facade is, in effect, a prefabricated steel lattice, with columns on 39-inch centers acting as wind bracing to resist all overturning forces"

into

basicaly curtain wall designed to withstand the winds and weather

Very illustrative: thank you.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #179
184. Excuse me! Stop reading your predjudices into my posts.
I've been arguing all along that the cental supports do the main load bearing work for the building, with the outside walls and support contributing support for weather, wind resistance, sheering effects, etc. IN OTHER WORDS, OVERTURNING FORCES! What, you think an overturning force is a giant trying to knock the building down? Get real, overturning forces are the enviromental ones, WIND AND WEATHER! Don't go jumping in with semantic arguements when you don't know what your jumping into OK.

And yes, in the biz they are called curtain walls. Deal with it!
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #184
193. Overturning forces are ANY overturning forces
...like e.g. if part of the load bearing structure is destroyed on one side, it causes an overturning force.

Get real, overturning forces are the enviromental ones, WIND AND WEATHER!
Don't go jumping in with semantic arguements when you don't know what your jumping into OK.


:eyes:
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #193
201. *Sigh*
Overturning forces when they are referred to in an engineering or architectural context refer to those forces that are excerted by enviromental forces, ie wind, water(if you have a dam), and earth. They do not refer to possible forces in the future such as bombs, plane crashes, etc. Since I don't have an engineering dictionary with me, I'll provide you with an "in context" definition
<http://www.bc.sit.edu.au/statics/strings/5moments/m5fwalls.html>
Study this one carefully, it will provide the definition you are looking for, both in words and equations.

Events in the future, such as bombs, plane crashe, etc. are referred to as catastrophic events. Events mean one time, over a short period. Forces mean ongoing, throughout time. A bomb blast is an event, a catastrophic one. Wind is a force, an overturning force. Its all there in the link.

Now stop playing cutsie semantics games, you don't even know what the rules are.
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #201
204. Yup, that's the point:
Overturning forces when they are referred to in an engineering or architectural context refer to those forces that are excerted by enviromental forces, ie wind, water(if you have a dam), and earth. They do not refer to possible forces in the future such as bombs, plane crashes, etc.

Now stop playing cutsie semantics games, you don't even know what the rules are.


So you make a rule in your "cutsie" semantics game that an overturning force exists only if it's excerted by enviromental forces but it can't exist if it would be exerted by gravity and loss of support on one side, just because it's defined that way somewhere, damn physical reality.

Ok, I won't play that "cutsie" semantics game of yours and I don't even care what your rules are: reality has it's own, different "rules". :-)
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #157
205. you are sooo full of it
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 05:27 PM by steviet_2003
first, i'll grant the size in aircraft but then, that is not my field of specialty.

second, you didn't even know that the WTC towers used an exoskeleton of lattice work bearing steel, huh?? you sure are educated on things arencha?
The WTC team took a slightly different approach. They decided to build long "tubes," where all the support columns would be around the outside of the building and at the central core of the building. Essentially, each tower was a box within a box, joined by horizontal trusses at each floor.

http://howstuffworks.lycoszone.com/wtc2.htm
snip----
The outer box, measuring 208 feet by 208 feet (63x63 m), was made up of 14-inch (36-cm) wide steel columns, 59 per building face, spaced just over 3 feet (1 m) apart. On every floor above the plaza level, the spaces between the columns housed 22-inch (56-cm) windows. Yamasaki, who had a pronounced fear of heights, felt that the small windows made the building feel more secure. The columns were covered with aluminum, giving the towers a distinctive silver color. The inner box at the core of each tower measured about 135 feet by 85 feet (41x26 m). Its 47 heavy steel columns surrounded a large open area housing elevators, stairwells and restrooms.




The World Trade Center towers had an innovative "tube" design, with a perimeter support structure joined to a central core structure with horizontal floor trusses.


This design had two major advantages. First of all, it gave the building remarkable stability. In addition to shouldering some of the vertical load (the weight of the building), the outer steel columns supported all of the horizontal forces acting on the tower (the force of the wind). This meant the inner support structure was completely dedicated to the huge vertical loads.

Secondly, the tube design made for great real estate. With the support structure moved to the sides and center of the building, there was no need to space bulky columns throughout each floor. Clients could configure the available space, about 3/4 of an acre per floor, however they wanted.

snip-----

third, high strength low allow carbon steel is the standard steel used in construction and has been for 50 years or more. that is the only steel noted in the AISC manual of steel construction, a 1113 page bible for structural engineers and architects. i've read it, have you?? generally the more alloys the more brittle the steel is. if you have links to prove otherwise, please post.

yes, gravity is an immutible fact, and things fall DOWN. if you take out a corner of a building near the top, stressing the remaining structural members and then applying heat until they fail the entire floor will fall, DOWN on top of the floor below. even if only a corner of a floor fell, it would fall DOWN onto the floor below likely causing that floor to subsequently fall DOWN. a floor would never fall OUT. if there were explosive near the base there is a much greater likelyhood that the building would not fall so nicely into it's footprint.

believe me, mr. well reasoned, logical dave, EVERY building failure is scrutinized by teams of forensic engineers. that is how the codes get written when they find the cause of the failure it becomes a code. this one was the mo-fo of forensic investigations. i have read reports and seen calculations published by the most noted structural engineers in the world. every single structural aspect of the collapse was analyzed and calculated and computer modeled by a battery of brains much greater than yours or mine. what happened was caused by planes, not explosives.

i don't get the point anyway?? i am not saying the MIHOP or LIHOP didn't happen, it may well have. my point is that explosives were not necessary to bring the towers down.

on edit: thanks for the warning
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #205
207. I suggest you edit that post quickly
It's chock full of facts, so the Believers would be eager to get it deleted and there's one word there that would make it too easy.
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westerby Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #205
226. Some sources?
"I have read reports and seen calculations published by the most noted structural engineers in the world."

Could you give then some sources, please.
If you pretend to argue scientifically, then it is necessary to provide sources.

I would be delighted if these sources explained the seismic records of Columbia University, especially why the highest peak was at the beginning of the collapse process.

"applying heat until they fail the entire floor will fall"
As the fuel burned off within the first few minutes (according to FEMA), a normal office fire would have produced the heat. Was it that hot?
The smoke was black, indicating lower temperatures. Do your scientific papers address these aspects? FEMA does not.
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #143
200. Well done. As an aeronautical engineer and a commercial pilot, I get
REALLY pisssed off with all these armchair Monday morning quarterbacks who prefer idiotic conspiracies to basic science.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #200
202. Well, as a nuclear engineer,
I get really pissed off with all of these supposedly intelligent people ignoring basic science, just so they can keep their head buried in the sand and feel secure.
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slack Donating Member (250 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #82
98. thanks, interesting posting
"And jet fuel, which is essentially kerosene burns at a constant 800 degrees, which is nowhere close to the melting point of structural steel, or for that matter nowhere near the temp that would be required to weaken steel, which occurs at aprox 1100 degrees(depending on the exact makeup of the steel)."

Did anybody know, what the 'official' explanation for this mystery?

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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #98
152. Watch a glass blower
One of those people who make little sculptures out of glass. They heat the glass just enough so it bends. If they heat it too much, it breaks.

All it took was for the metal supports to bend a bit and wreck the structural integrity of the top floors, then the whole thing pancaked.

Plain ordinary physics.
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
86. With friends like you....
:eyes:
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terryg11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
95. watched it on tv
pretty sure it was just the planes. first and last time i will most likely post on one of these threads
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #95
121. No it ain't!
There was a flying saucer flying off from the side of the south tower. It had some sorta laser beam on it.

I know, I seen it!
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HalfManHalfBiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
109. To address one very stupid point
Pyroclastic flows are hot, often incandescent mixtures of volcanic fragments and gases. They travel at speeds on the order of 450 miles per hour with temperatures around 500 degrees C.

This was not what was seen in NYC on 9/11. That was called a dust cloud. A true pyroclastic flow would have burned thousands of people on the ground to death. Like the 1902 eruption of Mt. Pelee, which killed 30,000 people.

===============================================================

I think a better theory is that the CIA recruited thousands of Bigfoots to infiltrate every floor of the towers. Hidden in utility closets, they would light farts in a precision sequence and the methane explosions would take out the support structures of the towers. When the towers crashed down, the Bigfoots were vaporized DESTROYING ALL THE EVIDENCE.

If you are not open minded enough to believe this, you are a tool of the BFEE.

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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
111. I hope I don't regret this
Maybe I missed this, if so I apologize.

But, what was the official explanation for building #7 collapsing? That's the thing that I've always found strange. I mean other buildings just as close sustained damage but didn't collapse. I was down at Century 21 just last week! Good as new :)
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #111
128. I still want to know why in the pentagon video, you can't see the plane
before it crashes and explodes. Any explanations?
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #128
139. Not only that, but what happened to the remains of it, the size of .......
the hole in the building along with many other things

Go here and check this site for good picture of it

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flight77.htm

from this thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=57653

Go here and check the pictures of parts (of what look to be the mock up plane) laying around
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jpdesm/pentagon/english.html

from this thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=57653
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #128
142. Here you go
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #142
162. I like linking back to the thread I just left, makes it good for..........
Bookmarking. :hi:
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Garage Queen Donating Member (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #111
130. It was built over an electric sub-station.
Therefore its steel skeleton was "hollow" (for lack of a better word) at the base in order for the building to straddle the station. (I think the offices didn't start until the 10th floor, if memory serves.)

So, when it caught fire, it was even more susceptible to collapse than a "normal" building, where the skeleton runs all the way through. The fire burned, the steel beams weakened, etc etc etc.
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King_Crimson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #130
134. One catch to that...
regarding the fires...jet fuel burns very quickly and NOT at the temperatures it would take to melt steel. All the black smoke you witnessed that day was due to smoldering. I spent six years in US Air Force as jet aircraft refueling specialist. More to it than the fires!
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Eat_The_Rich Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #134
167. I just want to jump in here...
There has been a lot of discussion in this thread about the temperature that the structural steel in the WTC was exposed to, and for how long. The fact that is missing from all of these discussions is that the major structural components of the WTC were covered with asbestos containing spray-on fireproofing. This is done to protect the steel (by protect I mean after exposure to fire there is no loss in the strength or integrity of the steel) from exposure to temp around 1200(F) for a period of two hours (I believe this is correct, but is has been a long time since I reviewed these figures). These figures are results of UL tests. In theory, the fires should not have damages the steel.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #130
137. WTC7 wasn't one of the tower that was hit and burned.
If was one of the neighboring buildings that supposedly collapsed(again, straight down) from damage sustained when the Towers collapsed.

Also, all steel skeletons are "hollow". That's why they're called skeletons. And being built electric sub-station would not effect the strucural integrity of the building one whit. Most modern sky-scrapers have their own electrical sub-stations in the basement due to the amount of electricity that goes to these buildings. It simply means that there is a large room built in the basement to hold electrical equipment. In fact, most of these sub-stations are much more well built than the ordinary offices and hallways above them, due to saftety concerns. Thus they have more reenforced concrete around them, thicker beams, more eletrical grounding and fireproofing.

And lastly, tell me, how does a fuel mixture that burns at 800-900 degrees farenheit weaken structural steel that doesn't start to weaken until it suffers prolonged exposure to temps of aprox. 1100 degrees farenheit?

Perhaps you need to do a little more research before posting such misleading and easily refutable information as fact.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #137
149. PLEASE SEE MY POST 143 ABOVE
at 800 deg. steel is only 77% as strong as it is at 70 deg. conbine this with the stresses and torque caused by having to compensate for almost a third of the structural support taken out and the expansion of the steel causing bolts to shear and welds to crack and the buildings didn't stand a chance.

as tank said, explosions were needlessly redundant.
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #137
153. Perhaps YOU should do a little research. The TIT (turbine inlet temp)
in the engines of the plane I usually fly is 610C or about 1100F. The temperature of COMBUSTION before cooling air is mixed in at the turbine inlet section is close to 4000 degrees.
There sure is a lot of idiotic misinformation in this thread.
:grr:
:grr:
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #153
216. But he was talking about tower #7 right?
There was no jet fuel or anything burning at all in tower #7 that's the thing that confuses me. I still don't know why that building would collapse the way it did when other buildings as close to #7 sustained damage and maintained their structural integrity and indeed have remodeled and are open today and operating as good as ever.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
146. Why do you keep posting this?
This is the kind of red herring, hysterical garbage that gets our REAL questions ignored because the media is conveniently able to lump all the questions together, label them "conspiracy theories," and ignore them, when in fact there are very many, very REAL questions that must be answered, starting with the 28 pages and the August 6th briefing.

DU loses credibility when junk like this is on the front page.

I will bet anything that you are nowhere near NYC. If you were you would understand that it is absolutely impossible for what you claim to have happened with the thousands of witnesses present before, during and after the collapse.

I don't doubt your sincerity and I believe that you believe in what you're espousing, but I am appalled to see something so absurd repeatedly posted in GD.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #146
156. Actually some here don't take the Corporate Media as gospell
More over, some here might even look at them as something that likes to withhold truth for many more dubious reasons.

Some people would be holding their breath hoping the corporate media would come clean. Don’t bet on it; 30 years after the Gulf of Tonkin, they barely have come out and said there may have been a few misconceptions. Or Deep throat, the murders of JFK, MLK, RFK, Malcolm X, etc. People that have an Ideology and a belief of the way things are not to willing to consider other things. If it gets in their way and keeps them from doing something they want to pursue they will try to push it aside.

I am not saying any of this completely or maybe even partly correct, only one should examine the forest around them before they spend a whole lot of time on one tree.
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #146
176. Obviously, people are interested in it...
if you count the replies.

Absurd: I think that is not the right word.
Dave's ideas might be wrong.

However, there are serious reasons to doubt the offical version.
This version might be wrong, too.

Do major newspapers cite DU frontpage discussions on a regular basis, and this thread would irritate them?


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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #176
180. People come to DU
to get the news the newspapers won't print. They're expecting facts, not nonsense.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
159. Wow, one thing is obvious
no one has a clue...all the physical evidence is gone. Seems like the only winner here is the Bush Regime.

Mission Accomplished! :(
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
161. There's something that doesn't add up about this thread.
I've been reading through these posts and I'm puzzled not by the disagreement with Dave's theory, but by the absolute vitriol directed toward his point of view. Not only that, but his position has to be ridiculed by associating it with talk about the tooth fairy and aliens and such.

Let me say that I am neither an architect nor an engineer; not even close. And my knowledge of physics, other than at an elementary level, is close to nil. So, I don't delude myself that I am qualified to add anything substantive to this discussion regarding whether or not there were explosives planted in the WTC.

But I do know that all day, every day there are people on this board who say that they wouldn't put ANYTHING past the Bush cabal as far as their effort to remain in power.

When the UN offices in Iraq were attacked there was discussion that, among other possible culprits, it was at least possible that the Misadministration had their fingers in it somewhere. That didn't seem to be too far out for most of us to consider.

In the past 3 years I have come to the conclusion that there isn't one thing that these thugs wouldn't consider inflicting on the American people if it would assure their remaining in power.

So what is driving the vitriolic responses here? Is it the gut-wrenching fear that that is the one place we cannot bear to go? That over 3,000 people died, perhaps literally at the hands of Bush/Cheney? I don't know. Just asking.

Oh...and BTW, I don't know if Dave's theory has any validity. I will say that the way those buildings came down has always seemed just to "perfect" to suit me. Also, I wouldn't put ANYTHING past the creeps who think they're in charge. :crazy:







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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #161
164. Pure frustration
We get these threads often. Somebody decides upon a conclusion, then puts together "evidence" to support it. Unfortunately the evidence is pure poppycock when examined with the cold hard light of logic and science, but this fails to deter them from defending it with stranger and stranger flights of fancy.

It's just frustrating to watch others buy into it, then tempers flare.
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #164
165. Not only that...
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 02:39 PM by acerbic
Unfortunately the evidence is pure poppycock when examined with the cold hard light of logic and science, but this fails to deter them from defending it with stranger and stranger flights of fancy.

It's just frustrating to watch others buy into it, then tempers flare.


Anyone who presents actual facts that counter the kookery is called "a paid Bush disinformation agent" and claimed to "believe Bush's version COMPLETELY" and "take the Corporate Media as gospel" etc. etc.

Quite a valid reason for "vitriol", I'd say...
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DarkPhenyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #161
170. Let's be honest.
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 02:49 PM by DarkPhenyx
Dave has brought a lot of the vitriol upon himself. Several rational and educated people tried to discuss it with him, using their own backgrounds and experience, as well as other documented "proof". He pretty much went off and called them brain dead idiots. While I don't agree with the treatment he has received from some, I also don't have a lot of sympathy for Dave.
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #161
213. But they are not omnipotent!
I don't think any body here is defending the Bushies.

The reason these theories are loony is that they make the administration nearly omnipotent. Like a cartoon villain with an army of drones able to perform -any- dastardly act flawlessly.

It would take dozens or hundreds of people to plant all those explosives. WHO ARE THEY? Where do they live now? Do they have children? Do they have consciences?

Space aliens seems to be the most likely explanation.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
178. THE ANSWER IS
Same guys that sneaked 14 Saudi Men with boxcutters past security without any of them being stopped, all of them with their real names on the passenger manifest.

Same guys that sat around watching POTUS read a story for 15 mins while they immediately whisked the VP away and briefed him.

Same guys who purport that training in a 707 simulator and doing badly at it would let you fly a fully loaded 757 up the twisty canyons of the NYC on the Hudson right to a target inside the city.

Same guys who apparently knew full well in advance these events were about to occur and stopped flying commercially.

Same guys who inexplicably were having a fire drill scenario at the Pentagon that involved a jet crashing into the building on 9/11.

Same guys who inexplicably had NO NORAD "off course jetliner" procedures in place that ONE day; a situation that hasn't happened before or since.

You know. THOSE GUYS.

Now my only question to you assuming your bomb placement theory isn't an impossible task :

WHY BOTHER?
:nuke:
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #178
190. Because of the money, there was a very large sum of funds
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 04:10 PM by nolabels
that were being wired out of the building at the time, a german firm that has lazar tech to retrive the data on the recovered hard drives started up going through them. Somebody posted the article about that somewhere here. It has to with the never burried BCCI bank scandal

On edit: here is one of them

http://www.americanfreepress.net/051302/Revealing_9-11_Stock_Trades_Co/revealing_9-11_stock_trades_co.html

Revealing 9-11 Stock Trades Could Expose The Terrorist Masterminds



A transparent and thorough investigation of suspicious trades before Sept. 11 could expose the masterminds behind the attacks by revealing who knew and profited from advance knowledge—if only the government wanted to.



Exclusive to American Free Press

By Christopher Bollyn

Manipulators with inside information made huge profits on sophisticated trades as the stocks of the airline and insurance companies plummeted in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 disaster. The inside information was so precise that experts have concluded that it could have only come from those who masterminded the terror attacks.

This money trail is the closest investigators have come to “a smoking gun” and could lead directly to those who planned the attacks. But with the notable exception of Rep. Cynthia McKinney (D.-Ga.), Congress has yet to demand a thorough and open investigation.

In the days following the terror attacks, suspicious and unusual stock trading activity indicated that people used inside information to make huge profits. The money made from the trades done with apparent inside information has been estimated at up to $15 billion worldwide.

The Institute for Counter Terrorism (ICT), located in Herzliya, Israel, published an article, “Black Tuesday: World’s Largest Insider Trading Scam?” on Sept. 19, 2001.

Author Don Radlauer, an expert in stock options and derivatives, provided details of the types and volumes of the suspicious trades and said: “Obviously, anyone who had detailed knowledge of the attacks before they happened was, at the very least, an accessory to their planning; and the overwhelming probability is that the trades could have been made only by the same people who masterminded the attacks themselves.”
(snip)

Will try to find one about data recovery later if somebody else don't post it here by then
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #190
224. Silly me, had it on the one of my own hard drives all along
http://www.rediff.com/money/2001/dec/17wtc.htm
German firm probes final World Trade Center deals

German computer experts are working round the clock to unlock the truth behind an unexplained surge in financial transactions made just before two hijacked planes crashed into New York's World Trade Center on September 11.
Were criminals responsible for the sharp rise in credit card transactions that moved through some computer systems at the WTC shortly before the planes hit the twin towers?
Or was it coincidence that unusually large sums of money, perhaps more than $100 million, were rushed through the computers as the disaster unfolded?
A world leader in retrieving data, German-based firm Convar is trying to answer those questions and help credit card companies, telecommunications firms and accountants in New York recover their records from computer hard drives that have been partially damaged by fire, water or fine dust.
Using a pioneering laser scanning technology to find data on damaged computer hard drives and main frames found in the rubble of the World Trade Center and other nearby collapsed buildings, Convar has recovered information from 32 computers that support assumptions of dirty doomsday dealings.
(snip)
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #178
233. OYE
"sneaked 14 Saudi Men with boxcutters past security" um, they didn't SNEAK, they walked past security that they knew from observation, was lax.

"Same guys who purport that training in a 707 simulator and doing badly at it would let you fly a fully loaded 757 up the twisty canyons of the NYC on the Hudson right to a target inside the city"

Again, ummm, if you looked at the twin towers you'll see they were a lot TALLER than the other buildings. Hard to miss, no flying "twisty canyons" required.

this is why I hate this 9/11 crap, the conspiracy types make up "facts" that they then dispute...
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saskatoon Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
188. This will amaze you
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
214. Dear Lord!
What an enormous compilation of Horseshit!

Obviously, it would be impossible for the administration to plant all that explosive without getting caught.

HAD to be anti-gravity death rays from flying saucers captured from Space Aliens and secretly stored in Area 51.

Anybody who disagrees with this is obviously a Freeper.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #214
220. who said it was "the administration"?
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 07:53 PM by ima_sinnic
the question is WHETHER there were explosives or some coordinated thing with the planes. Whoever was behind the planes--Saudis, bin Laden, Saudi BFEEPNACCarlyians--could have had accomplices working in the buildings. Haven't figured out WHO exactly yet.

edited this: see my post #218 above
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #220
222. accomplices doing what?
Do you work in an office building?
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
219. Here's a quote from one of those "researchers"
...that Dave considers to have done "the most worthwhile research":

When I leered that Hillary Clinton's severest biographer critic, Barbara Olsen was on Flight 77 it became important to learn what business put her on Flight 77 to Los Angeles on September 11. From now on the passengers of flight 77 must be considered possible kidnap victims. The amorality and arrogance of the criminal elites responsible for the 911 frame-up make this a reasonable suspicion and avenue of investigation. But another theory that must be also be tested against the facts involves a willing cell-phone actress. Intelligent internet discussants of every political stripe are concluding that Flight 77 was not destroyed at the Pentagon. We must determine where the abductors took that plane.

I have long been convinced that Hillary Clinton was behind the Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman murders that created the distraction the night before the very day Hillary became the first First Lady to testify in a criminal investigation. I also know that she was involved in serious economic crime when she received criminal payment for corrupt services in the form of a million-to-one (i.e. impossible to come by honestly) illegally manipulated first-timer bonanza killing in the commodities futures speculation. Also, that she had one of the Secret Service men she detested, a man who might have heard too much, transferred to Okalahoma city -- to perish in the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building there, even as the drug-trade-dealing BATF chose to be away from the office that day. And there is the Vince Foster murder. If Mrs. Olsen is in the hands of Hillary Clinton and her associates now, I am sure she would much rather be in the Atlantic trench.

Ever wonder about all the unaccounted-for time that Bill Clinton (that closet Bush man and cfr stooge and hit man) spent in Harlem, New York prior to September 11.


http://www.apfn.org/apfn/not_crashed.htm

Draw your own conclusions...
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
223. Everybody knows it was the Tri-Lateral Comission, Silly.
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 11:19 PM by John_H
with logistical support from UFO's and underworld figures controlled by mind-control implants. Jeez, where you people been?
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marley Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #223
227. Here is more "evidence"
This site might help you out Dave.

http://www.phact.org/conspiry.htm

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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #227
234. great article
Thanks
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haymaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #227
237. Those "critical thinkers" should
check their punctuation and spelling.
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SPAZtazticman Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
235. hello Mr. Conspiracy Theorist
the towers were designed so that, if they ever were to fall down, they would fall vertically, thus minimizing collateral damage. also, if it had been a deliberate demolition, it would have been much cleaner. there would not have been an enormous "pyroclastic flow" of dust engulfing lower manhattan. the other buildings that fell down were damaged by falling debris, and the fires that were in them were fueled by all of the very flammable stuff thats already inside any building (rugs, furniture, paper, etc).
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haymaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
236. All the usual suspects in full attack mode.
You never miss a beat.

Was there ever intense inspection and an investigation performed on the rubble?
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-03 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #236
240. What "rubble"?
Was there ever intense inspection and an investigation performed on the rubble?

So you don't believe that all the concrete of the towers was pulverized into that dust cloud that spread to the surrounding streets as the Truth tellers tell? Gotcha! You're a hired disinformation agent!!!

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
241. WTC survivor testifies on series of explosions leading to collapse
Dawn Robinson just barely got out of the South Tower alive. As she was running from the building she heard the series of explosions which caused it to collapse, and experienced the begining of the gray pyrocastic cloud caused by concrete blown to smithereens:

Her testimony was recorded by a religious site.

<<The formerly blue sky was now gray and turning darkerby the second. As Dawn ran down a panic-filled street,explosions went off behind her. I thought about jumpinginto the nearby river, but it was pitch black from falling debris. Suddenly I heard the loudest explosion of all.Within seconds the entire South Tower, unable to hold the110,000-ton weight of its damaged top section, pancaked floor by floor to the ground.>>

http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=World+Trade+Center+Explosions&url=soCQ5R54IqoJ:www.zondervan.com/media/pdfs/0310236622.pdf
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #241
242. The way she uses "explosion" here...
...does not equate to "detonation of explosives". It's a colloquial usage that only proves that she heard a really loud noise, which is not exactly unexpected in a building about to undergo major structural failure.

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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #242
247. Yes, this is a bit ambiguous
Edited on Mon Aug-25-03 02:58 PM by Dancing_Dave
There are hundreds (at least) of witnesses, and Dawn isn't the clearest one about the character of the explosives going off. And the article about her experience was written in a sloppy way. But what's interesting is that she does seem to have heard the SERIES of explosions that actually collapsed WTC 2 (and WTC 1 and 7 likewise). This the most up-to date and physically plausible explanation we have of how the collapse we can study on videos was caused. HERE IS A CLEAR ANALYTIC ARTICLE TO CATCH UP ON WHAT REALY HAPPENED:
http://911pi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5396090821&f=9606022231&m=433601662
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
245. FEMA changes their tune--NOW they admit there were many explosives!
You know the Official Bush Regime version of what happened on 9/11 is starting to unravel when several Gov. agencies are drawn into a project called World Trade Center Explosions and Fires Assistance. No, there's still no criminal investigation of who put those explosives in the WTC. And maybe what's really goin' on here is you can get lots of assistance from FEMA as long you promise not to tell anyone else about the explosives you saw go off and who you think put them there....so where's the CRIMINAL investigation?

It's hard to do when you've got criminals in the White House...
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #245
251. Can you direct me to the part of that page where...
.."they admit there were many explosives!"?

It doesn't appear to "admit" anything of the sort.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #251
255. It's not specifically informative about that
But it does show that they are grappeling with the explosions as a very primary issue in the destruction of the WTC...something which some people are still to deep in denial to do!
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #255
256. Of course explosions were a primary cause...
...no one is debating that. What people are contesting (or "in denial about" to you) is the notion that some sort of demolition charges were involved (and that anyone who does that contesting is either "in denial" or a dupe or active agent of the Bushies).
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nomatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
246. Was the WTC bombed in 1993?
Those who argue only the jets caused the twin towers to collapse, can you admit it was planned and executed (unsuccessfully in their terms) in 1993?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2800297.stm

"The conspirators had actually planned to topple one of the Twin Towers into the other, while simultaneously releasing a cloud of cyanide gas," said Mr Reeve.

"What they were planning was really quite an apocalyptic terrorist attack."

Only financial restrictions had prevented the perpetrators from achieving their aim.

"They ran out of money. They didn't have enough gas canisters for the bomb, and some of the low-level members of the conspiracy - the foot soldiers - placed the bomb alongside the wrong support structure."

Can you think outside of the box?

Your education may get in your way, so you aren't to be blamed for not seeing the bigger picture.

Step back to 1993, as in this BBC article, and think of what went wrong. "Placed bombs alongside the wrong support structure"...hmmm.

Seriously, is it so far fetched to think they would have used BOTH methods?

The conspirators & foot soldiers. Why do you dismiss this so vehemently? What is your motive?

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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #246
249. Thank you for getting back to the topic!
Edited on Mon Aug-25-03 03:10 PM by Dancing_Dave
:toast: :) This was supposed to be an investigation of ideas about WHO could have put all those bombs in the WTC that went off on 9/11 and even into 9/12, and I hear you seem to really have some IDEAS about who might have done it and why, which is more than can be said for people who's shallow negative comments reveal nothing but PREJUDICE.
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nomatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #249
253. John O'Neill & WTC
"They'll never stop trying to take down those two buildings." John O'Neill

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/sept11/features/5513/

"He'd been the FBI's top expert on Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, a lead investigator of the USS Cole and African embassy bombings. Leaving the Bureau in frustration, he'd taken a job he thought of as retirement: World Trade Center security chief."

"His expertise on bin Laden was unquestioned. He took that expertise personally, and had no trouble correcting anyone, above or below him. "He was the paramount, most knowledgeable agent we had in the FBI, probably in the government, with respect to counterintelligence matters," says Louis Freeh."

"You could see that come home to roost in the investigations," says U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White, whose summary arguments in the embassy-bombings case against bin Laden and others are packed with evidence that O'Neill unearthed. "John went at it comprehensively, yielding things from people in London or people in Yemen we never otherwise would have gotten."


You can argue how the building fell.

John O'Neill knew they would be attacked again. He took the job in August.
It was clear intel had many warnings OBL was about to strike.

Ask yourself, if you were the head of the FBI would you let "your paramount, most knowledgeable agent we had in the FBI, probably in the government, with respect to counterintelligence matters," go off to any retirement job, or would you place him at the center of it with a cover?

Again why is it so far fetched that the WTC could have be struck by jet and by explosives?

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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #253
254. OBL Legend
"It was clear intel had many warnings OBL was about to strike."

The plotters really set it up pretty good, didn't they? Complete with a plausible fall-guy story in case the truth ever emerged..."oh, well, it was an intelligence failure." The intel crowd has to be prepared to eat crow every now and then (SOU address with WMD BS is one of the latest "crows" --- but who's counting?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
250. I did.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
252. Great post, Dave. Thanks!
This is indeed an incredible smoking gun.
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