The Pentagon clock problem

[Woody Box]

We are told that the Pentagon was hit by AA 77 at 9:37 am.

But two famous clocks tell a different story: They stopped working six minutes earlier.



A clock in the Pentagon - stopped at 0931

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1546876.stm



This Skilcraft electric wall clock, which hung in the Pentagon helipad fire station, was knocked to the ground by the impact of American Airlines flight 77 crashing into the Pentagon.

Source: http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=19

And this site here presents additional evidence that the impact of AA 77 happened earlier (maybe someone who is in possession of the Naudet documentation can confirm that):

http://www.bedoper.com/pentagon/smoke.htm

[pocket]

1. looks like they are one minute different from each other

as well.

one is at 0931 and the other is at 0932.

[Woody Box]

2. Ok

but these are no digital clocks. One minute difference is acceptable.

But two clocks running too late five(six) minutes? Coincidence?

What about the eyewitnesses?

[pocket]

3. beats me

just making an observation,not reading anything into it.

[Woody Box]

5. sorry, didn't want to hurt you :-) (nt)

[pocket]

6. no problem :)

[MercutioATC]

4. We have the same clocks in my facility and none of them are accurate.

I can't think of one that agrees with our official ATC clocks...

[DulceDecorum]

7. Umm

not to be rude or anything, MercutioATC,
but does ANYTHING EVER work properly in the ATC world?

I am just a little surprised to discover that ATC clocks are wrong
and you guys
are all supposedly watching the exact arrival and departure time
for the BTS statistics.

And the radar doesn't work,
the transponders don't work,
and the FAA regs are regarded as highly as used Kleenex.
The more you say,
the more grateful I am, for Greyhound and Amtrak,
and the more respect I have, for Chicken Little.

Why do you have those "wrong" clocks lying around anyway?

[MercutioATC]

9. Did I not just state that we DO have official clocks?

We don't usually control airplanes from the cafeteria, the offices or the break rooms. Our monitors in the control room display official time.

[DulceDecorum]

11. I guess it must be the same

in the Pentagon.
The monitors in the control room display the correct -- OFFICIAL --time.

Who needs the correct time in their office or break-room anyway?
Beetle Bailey certainly doesn't.
What is five minutes here or there
when you are traveling at MACH II or deploying bombs?
Just a few wedding guests more or less.
Nothing major.
Just a snafu.

[MercutioATC]

12. You honestly haven't encountered wall clocks that didn't tell the correct

time?

What a perfect world you must live in...

[DulceDecorum]

15. I live in a land called

Perfect.
And no, we do not have a Walgreens.

And in my land,
those with civic responsibilities take them seriously,
votes are properly counted,
and crimes are thoroughly investigated.

Oh,
and a man by the name of Phineas Fogg,
keeps time for the military and the Air Traffic Control,
and no-one here is EVER
late for their own funeral.

Wish I could say the same for the people who depend on those clocks
on the walls of the Pentagon,
and the walls of the ATC towers in the US,
and in the classrooms and corridors of the schools visited by Bush
in times of national crises.
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/bush_school_photos_2.html

[starroute]

8. We seem to be told a lot of different things about this one

"9:37 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 77 is lost from radar screens and impacts the western side of the Pentagon. The section of the Pentagon hit consists mainly of newly renovated, unoccupied offices. The Pentagon says American Airlines Flight 77 hits them at 9:37. Other published reports have American Airlines Flight 77 striking at 9:40 to 9:43; The New York Times even published 9:45."

http://www.911timeline.net/

I agree that there's something a bit weird about the fuzziness. But are you really supporting the hypothesis given at one of your links that a bomb went off in the Pentagon about 9:30? That seems a bit extreme.

[Woody Box]

10. Fact is

that the first messages reported an explosion at the pentagon, not an airplane crashing into the building (of course, the term "explosion" includes an airplane accident, but the definiton is wider).

I will try to find some first-hand reports, but not now - too late.

[DulceDecorum]

13. I very much doubt

that ANYONE can give the time at which the Pentagon was damaged.

Summary
Since the time of plane impact at the Pentagon had often been reported with large scatter, the United States Army contacted us to inquire whether we could obtain an accurate time of the Pentagon attack on September 11, 2001 based upon our seismic network. We analyzed seismic records from five stations in the northeastern United States, ranging from 63 to 350 km from the Pentagon. Despite detailed analysis of the data, we could not find a clear seismic signal. Even the closest station (Ä = 62.8 km) at Soldier's Delight, Baltimore County, Maryland (SDMD) did not record the impact. We concluded that the plane impact to the Pentagon generated relatively-weak seismic signals. However, we positively identified seismic signals associated with United Airlines Flight 93 that crashed near Shanksville, Somerset County, Pennsylvania. The time of the plane crash was 10:06:05 ±5 (EDT).
http://members.fortunecity.com/911/wtc/seismic/WTC_PENT_KIM.htm

The US Army could not tell,
and neither can the seismic scientists.
But I wish you luck.

PS.
According to the BTS database,
only five AA planes took off from Dulles on September 11, 2001.
And NONE of them was Flight 77.
No AA plane that left Dulles was even heading toward California.

AA, 09/11/2001, 0599, N871AA, DFW, 7:49 Dallas Fort Worth Int.
AA, 09/11/2001, 0771, N3BFAA, SJU, 6:57 Luis Munoz Marin Int. PR.
AA, 09/11/2001, 0975, N3CAAA, MIA, 7:34 Miami International
AA, 09/11/2001, 1217, N2ANAA, ORD, 6:26 O'Hare International
AA, 09/11/2001, 1361, N493AA, DFW, 6:17 Dallas Fort Worth Int.

LoneStar was kind enough to provide us with the key
to AA's Enronesque N-number reporting.
Therefore, we can now take a good hard look
at the true identities
of the American Airlines planes that actually left Dulles
on September 11, 2001.

N871AA is Deregistered.
The registration was canceled on 11/23/2001.
It has had one major aviation incident.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X32836&key=1

It was exported to Sao Tome & Principe.
Line Number 1324
Manufacturer Serial Number 21383
Model 727 223A
Registration S9-BAV
First Flight 24/02/78
Delivery 23/11/01
Operated by AIR GEMINI
Engines PW JT8D-9AHK
Ex Operators AAL
Previous Registrations N871AA

N3BFAA is the American Airlines alias for N929AN.
N3CAAA is the American Airlines alias for N946AN
N2ANAA is the American Airlines alias for N1412A.
N493AA is a normal number for a plane which once had a strange encounter.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X05960&key=1

So if TURN THE CLOCK BACK TO SEPTEMBER 11,
this is what we have.

N871AA was still a US-registered (1978?) BOEING 727-223, serial number 21383.
N929AN is Assigned. It is a 2000 BOEING 737-823, serial number 30078.
N946AN is Assigned. It is a 2000 BOEING 737-823, serial number 30600.
N1412A is Assigned. It is a 1991 FOKKER F.28 MK 0100, serial number 11370.
N493AA is Assigned. It is a 1983 DC-9-82(MD-82), serial number 49731.

And therefore I find myself asking,
once again,
WHERDY GO?

But I digress.
We were talking about the time of impact at the Pentagon.
And we know that the Pentagon WAS hit.
One part of a Penta-wall collapsed.
Carry on.

[k-robjoe]

16. weird

A really weird thing is the first main report from CNN ( by Chris Plant ) :


from the CNN transcript : 09:42

"PLANT: Well, and speaking to people here at the Pentagon, as they're being evacuated from the building. I'm told by several people that there was, in fact, an explosion.

I was told by one witness, an Air Force enlisted - senior enlisted man, that he was outside when it occurred. He said that he saw a helicopter circle the building. He said it appeared to be a U.S. military helicopter, and that it disappeared behind the building where the helicopter landing zone is - excuse me - and he then saw fireball go into the sky." http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.03.html

I don´t know about the alleged helicopter, but it´s very interesting that this went out at 09:42. That seems to be incredibly fast, if nothing happened until 09:38. And he has allready spoken with witnesses. ( At least one. )

To make things even weirder, Chris Plant reports : " I did not hear an explosion (...) " So he can´t have been very close (?) But how could he report like he did at 09:42, if he wasn´t even close enough to hear the explosion at 09:38?

[k-robjoe]

17. P.S.

> "how could he report like he did at 09:42, if he wasn´t even close enough to hear the explosion at 09:38?"

It sort of makes you wonder if there could be something to this report that the danish foreign minister, who was in the area, reported on danish radio the same morning :

" Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Møller was also an eyewitness to the event and he said:
"I saw FIRE and Smoke rising up from Pentagon at ca. 9:32AM"
PSM: "I think a BOMB just blew up at the Pentagon - but nobody believed me" "

It could seem like he didn´t actually hear the explosion either.

[Bob Stanford]

19. Don´t forget Daylight Saving Time! So CNN aired at 10:42 EDT.

May be I´m wrong, but this seems to be a problem of ET (= EST) and EDT. All the timelimes on the Pentagon attack use Eastern Daylight Time (EDT); according to most timelines,the attack happened arround 9:38 EDT.

Concerning the CNN report you mentioned, I can read:

"Aired September 11, 2001 - 09:42 ET"

So it was aired at 10:42 EDT, wasn´t it?

Bob

[k-robjoe]

21. Forgot indeed

Seems like you´re right. Thanks for making me aware.

So, this can´t tell us anything about the time.
So if the clock in the Pentagon, and the Pentagon helipad clock both were 6-7 minutes late, and the clock at the New York fire station, same thing, and the wristwatch of the danish foreign minister, same thing, then...

(there´s also mention of telegrams on 911 saying an explosion occured at 09:30...)

It´s pretty hard to believe that this is the case, isn´t it?

[k-robjoe]

22. Danish foreign affair minister

I just got a mail from Henrik Melvang. I sent him a mail asking if he had it on tape, the danish foreign affair minister saying he saw smoke and fire at the Pentagon at about 09:32.

Melvang confirmed that he has it on tape. ( From three different news sources.)

[PerpetualYnquisitive]

14. The time is right....

The video “9/11 The Filmmakers’ Commemorative DVD” does show Tony the Probby, watching the TV at 9:30 (clock is to the right of the TV) and he blurts out “The Pentagon, the Pentagon is on fucking fire. War, this is war.”

So how is it that a firefighter in NYC knows the Pentagon is on fire 10-15 minutes before it supposedly was hit? Simple answer, he didn’t, the media is lying about the time of impact to keep in step with the O.F.T. (Official Fairy Tale - Atta & the Afghan 18)

This video also has many interviews with firefighters describing bombs going off in the towers before they collapsed.

[DulceDecorum]

18. Why did the clock stop?

And what do they mean by saying that it was six minutes slow?

Pentagon helipad clock
Description: This Skilcraft electric wall clock, which hung in the Pentagon helipad fire station, was knocked to the ground by the impact of American Airlines flight 77 crashing into the Pentagon.
Context: When terrorists flew American Airlines flight 77 into the Pentagon, the crash nearly took the nearby Pentagon helipad firehouse with it. The concussion caused the ceiling of the firehouse to collapse, temporarily trapping firefighter Dennis Young in the fallen debris. The blast also knocked this clock from the wall, freezing it at 9:32. The airplane actually struck the Pentagon at 9:38 am; apparently the clock was six minutes slow.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=19

SKILCRAFT and other JWOD products and services meet or exceed all applicable performance standards and specifications. We take pride in our products and work to bring our customers the quality, features and value they expect. Several JWOD products are manufactured with brand name suppliers or partners.
http://www.nib.org/JWOD%20Catalog/main.html

Is the Smithsonian trying to say that the work of disabled people is substandard?

By harnessing the demand and purchasing power of the federal government, NIB and its associated agencies supply federal markets with a selection of more than 3,000 quality products and services under the trade name SKILCRAFT®— manufactured and provided by people who are blind at more than 83 associated agencies, operating 123 industries in 44 states across the nation. No minor accomplishment, NIB and associated agencies execute the following activities:
Employ almost 5,000 people who are blind per year
Pay over 60 million dollars per year in wages and benefits for full- and part-time employees
Offer rehabilitative services to about 148,000 children and adults
Operate in over 100 base supply centers
Deliver millions of dollars worth of products and services to federal, state and commercial markets per year
http://www.nib.org/about/about_NIB.htm

When you purchase a SKILCRAFT® product or service through the federal Javits-Wagner-O’Day (JWOD) mandatory procurement program, you partner with NIB and our associated agencies to employ thousands of Americans across the nation. Your federal purchasing power enables people who are blind or have other disabilities to serve their country, their military and government customers by providing quality products and services at fair market values. You make a difference in their lives. And they make a difference in yours…
Producing SKILCRAFT items from the everyday to the unexpected…
Did you know that the SKILCRAFT sponge that soaked up rainwater and helped keep US Air Force Captain Scott O’Grady alive when he was shot down in Bosnia was made by people who are blind? Or that people who are blind supply the instrument panel lighting used on Air Force One?
From the black US Government ballpoint pens to cleaning products and components for the US Army’s Kevlar helmet, NIB-associated agencies operating under the JWOD program, manufacture, produce and distribute for purchase more than 3,000 SKILCRAFT and other JWOD products worldwide. However, unlike other manufacturers and distributors, NIB-associated agencies generate at least seventy-five percent of their direct labor hours by people who are blind to qualify for federal contracts under the JWOD program.
http://www.nib.org/products/products_and_services_overview.htm

JWOD is a Federal program with a dual purpose - to supply the Federal Government with quality products while creating meaningful employment opportunities for Americans who are blind or have other severe disabilities. As a result of Federal purchases, the JWOD Program currently provides nearly 40,000 people with severe disabilities with quality jobs and increased independence.
http://www.nib.org/JWOD%20Catalog/main.html

So, now we know exactly who made those Penta-clocks.
There is only ONE source for the Federal Government timepieces.

Welcome to our Federal Clock Showcase!
Chicago Lighthouse Industries offers over 40 battery-operated and electric wall clocks to its federal customers in a variety of colors and sizes, as the only approved source of wall clocks for the federal government through the JWOD program. Our collection of elegant and practical timepieces suits a variety of office styles and personal tastes!
As the only approved source for wall clocks for the federal government, we are committed to quality products for our customers. We offer unsurpassed quality control efforts, and pass along the results to our customers who benefit from AN ACCURACY OF +/- TWO MINUTES PER YEAR and long life on the clocks.
Chicago Lighthouse Industries is the only Approved Source of battery-operated and electric Wall Clocks for the Federal Government under the Javits-Wagner-O¹Day (JWOD) Act.
http://www.chicagolighthouse.org/showcases/federal/

The hard-hearted meanies at the Smithsonian say that
the timepiece in question was an

Electric Wall Clock
SKILCRAFT clock has a 5 ft long power cord. Clock is bronze with white face and has black numbers/minute marks/hands, red second hand, 0.33 seconds-per-day accuracy. Includes a shatterproof crystal. Hanging hardware included. UL listed.
http://www.nib.org/JWOD%20Catalog/office/main.html

So where is the damn cord?
You know,
the one that got knocked out of the wall
and stopped the clock?
Where is the frigging cord?
It has to have a cord.
If it did not have a cord,
if it was BATTERY OPERATED,
then it would NOT have stopped.

We are told that this particular clock,
and other Penta-clocks,
stopped
when the Pentagon was hit.
So now we want to see one damn cord per stopped clock.
And we also want to know
WHY
they were NOT battery operated.

Was that too difficult a question for you to answer?
OK then,
here is an easier one.

The Original Series clocks are a comprehensive line of standard, high quality plastic wall clocks. These clocks are available in a variety of colors to suit any office decor, and are made with a high impact case and crystal.
http://www.chicagolighthouse.org/showcases/federal/original.html

Plastic, eh?
Obtained from the same firm that supplied the indestructible paper used in the hijacker passports and tickets?
Here is the question:
do you see ANY signs of trauma WHATSOEVER on that high quality plastic wall clock?

Pentagon helipad clock
Description: This Skilcraft electric wall clock, which hung in the Pentagon helipad fire station, was knocked to the ground by the impact of American Airlines flight 77 crashing into the Pentagon.
Context: When terrorists flew American Airlines flight 77 into the Pentagon, the crash nearly took the nearby Pentagon helipad firehouse with it. The concussion caused the ceiling of the firehouse to collapse, temporarily trapping firefighter Dennis Young in the fallen debris. The blast also knocked this clock from the wall, freezing it at 9:32. The airplane actually struck the Pentagon at 9:38 am; apparently the clock was six minutes slow.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=19

Extra Credit:
The plastic Skilcraft clock is listed
on Smithsonian's American History website as being a
Gift of Dennis Young.

How did Dennis Young come by the authority to dispose of Pentagon property?

The third firefighter, Dennis Young, was inside the building when the plane hit but emerged unscathed shortly after the crash.
http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/6_37/local_news/10386-1.html
Like Penta-fire-fighter, like Penta-plastic-clock.

[MercutioATC]

20. You cite a company's website as proof of accuracy?

"SKILCRAFT and other JWOD products and services meet or exceed all applicable performance standards and specifications. We take pride in our products and work to bring our customers the quality, features and value they expect. Several JWOD products are manufactured with brand name suppliers or partners.

http://www.nib.org/JWOD%20Catalog/main.html"

What are they supposed to say, "Our clocks lose time occasionally."?

You further weaken your argument by asking if, because Skilcraft clocks are made by disabled people, those who bring their accuracy into question are "trying to say that the work of disabled people is substandard".

If Skilcraft clocks ARE so accurate, why do the two that show an earlier time than the official crash time differ from each other by a minute?

[DulceDecorum]

23. You have been stomping those clocks

(and by extension, the people who make them)
on other threads.
How about the people who SET the damn things?
And walk around KNOWING that they are telling the wrong time?

When you trash Skilcraft,
you are trashing the Federal Government
of the United States of America
that awarded the contract.

Section 1. Committee for Purchase from People Who Are Blind or Severely Disabled
(a) Establishment
There is established a committee to be known as the Committee for Purchase From People Who Are Blind or Severely Disabled (hereafter in this Act referred to as the "Committee"). The Committee shall be composed of fifteen members appointed as follows:
(1) The President shall appoint as a member one officer or employee from each of the following: The Department of Agriculture, the Department of Defense, the Department of the Army, the Department of the Navy, the Department of the Air Force, the Department of Education, the Department of Commerce, the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Department of Justice, the Department of Labor, and the General Services Administration. The head of each such department and agency shall nominate one officer or employee in his department or agency for appointment under this paragraph.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/41/46.html
http://www.jwod.gov/jwod/library/JWOD_Act.html

MercutioATC,
tell me,
WHY do hate America so much?

The President of the United States,
the Department of Agriculture,
the Department of Defense,
the Department of the Army,
the Department of the Navy,
the Department of the Air Force,
the Department of Education,
the Department of Commerce,
the Department of Veterans Affairs,
the Department of Justice,
the Department of Labor,
and the General Services Administration,
do NOT have a problem with Skilcraft clocks.

MercutioATC says:
"You cite a company's website as proof of accuracy?"
What are they supposed to say, "Our clocks lose time occasionally."?

Let us have a look at Federal Law.

8.700 Scope of subpart.
This subpart prescribes the policies and procedures for implementing the Javits-Wagner-O'Day Act (41 U.S.C. 46-48c), referred to in this subpart as "the JWOD Act," and the rules of the Committee for Purchase from People Who Are Blind or Severely Disabled (41 CFR Chapter 51).

8.701 Definitions.
As used in this subpart-
"Allocation" means an action taken by a central nonprofit agency to designate the JWOD participating nonprofit agencies that will furnish definite quantities of supplies or perform specific services upon receipt of orders from ordering offices.
"Central nonprofit agency" means National Industries for the Blind (NIB), which has been designated to represent people who are blind; or NISH, which has been designated to represent JWOD participating nonprofit agencies serving people with severe disabilities other than blindness.

8.710 Quality of merchandise.
Supplies and services provided by JWOD participating nonprofit agencies shall comply with the applicable Government specifications and standards cited in the order. When no specifications or standards exist-
(a) Supplies shall be of the highest quality and equal to similar items available on the commercial market; and
(b) Services shall conform to good commercial practices.
http://www.arnet.gov/far/loadmainre.html

And THAT, MercutioATC, is the LAW.
Those disabled people are doing their darnedest to comply with the LAW.
Hence your sneering is mean spirited
and becoming only to a righwingnut moran.

Skilcraft is a bona fide Defense Contractor.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/41/50.html
I guess this makes them a target for attacks from unpatriotic scum.

MercutioATC asks:
If Skilcraft clocks ARE so accurate, why do the two that show an earlier time than the official crash time differ from each other by a minute?

MercutioATC states:
I made a simple statement: I didn't see a "smoking gun" in the 6-minute-slow wall clocks in the Pentagon because we have a bunch of them in areas of our facility where time isn't "ATC critical" and they rarely agree with official time. Our official time is displayed on our monitors, so it doesn't effect ATC operations at all.
You've never seen a wall clock that didn't tell the correct time?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=13495#13564
Somehow, I expected better.
http://dailybeacon.utk.edu/issues/v71/n52/clock.52n.html
But I guess them thar ATCs never learned how to set their own clocks.
And y'all know what bad workmen have to say about their tools.

At this rate, MercutioATC will be blaming the AIB
every time a US Serviceman fails to tie a proper Windsor knot.

AIB is a division of The Alabama Institute for Deaf and Blind (AIDB) and is associated with National Industries for the Blind (NIB). Our product lines include a variety of twist wire brushes, brooms, mops, various paper products, military flyers kit bags, highway safety vest and flags, toner cartridges, screenprinting and embroidery. We proudly hold the distinction of manufacturing 100% of the neckties for the U.S. military.
http://www.aib-aidb.com/websites/aib/default.asp?id=14
http://www.aib-aidb.com/websites/aib/default.asp?ID=9

[Bolo Boffin]

24. Dulce Defends The Federal Government, Sometimes

Though Dulce (the two-gendered one) is busy convicting the US government of conducting the 9/11 attacks...

...s/he is ready to step to its defense should their choice in clocks be questioned by anyone!

Now do I think that Dulce is a paid disinfo agent sent here by Hill & Knowlton to distract from the real issues simply because s/he defends George Bush at the drop of a hat?

No.

Sit down, my son/daughter.

Sometimes governmental contracts are awarded to the lowest bidder.

And sometimes these low bidders supply substandard materials in fulfillment of their contracts.

And even when low bidders provide the best clocks in the world...

Sometimes, people leave clocks on the wrong time...just because.

Sometimes, people don't mean anything sinister in having a clock say the wrong time.

But I have noticed that the letter G is right next to the letter H in the alphabet. What that has to do with the Pentagon clock mystery has yet to be determined, but I've every confidence in you, Dulce.

Sometimes.

[DulceDecorum]

77. Skilcraft was the lowest bidder?

You mean that
these severely disabled and blind people
are being shafted by the Feds?
That is why they have top priority over commercial sources?
BOLOboffin, are you trying to say that
JWOD is a federal sweatshop set up to exploit disabled people?

The Federal Acquisition Regulations (FAR) Part 8 prioritizes purchasing sources that federal employees should utilize in procuring their requirements. According to these regulations, products available from the Committee for Purchase from People Who Are Blind or Severely Disabled have higher priority than General Services Administration (GSA) stock programs or open market purchases.
Some of you may have heard the acronym "JWOD" used in association with this high priority source. JWOD stands for Javits-Wagner-O'Day (named for the three legislators who sponsored it) and is a "Federal initiative that generates employment and training for more than 34,000 people who are blind or who have other significant disabilities."
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/Purchase/News_May_2000.html

You mean to say that the blind are the lowest bidders
because they don't need light bulbs or light at their work sites?
You mean to say that Clinton was really
a compassion-less conservative?

As I (WILLIAM J. CLINTON) have stated on numerous occasions, the unemployment rate for adults with disabilities is unacceptably high. We cannot afford to lose any opportunities for this segment of our population. I call upon you to recognize the contributions made to the Federal Government by individuals with disabilities under the JWOD Program and to take steps to ensure that your agencies' procurement executives, and other employees who acquire supplies for your agency, purchase JWOD products and services, consistent with existing law. Their support for the JWOD Program will help people with significant disabilities become and remain more independent and productive members of society.
http://www1.va.gov/oamm/mad/whpress.htm

BOLOboffin says:
And sometimes these low bidders supply substandard materials in fulfillment of their contracts.

SUBSTANDARD MATERIALS?
After that Skilcraft Electric Clock SURVIVED
the onslaught of a Boeing 757 WITHOUT A SINGLE SCRATCH??
SUBSTANDARD MATERIALS???
Well then,
Senor Cruello De Vil,
Explain these:

I am especially proud of our Agency's (Defense Logistics Agency) efforts to provide employment and training opportunities for people with severe disabilities through our support of the JWOD Program. Under JWOD, supplies and services purchased by DLA and other federal agencies currently generate jobs for nearly 40,000 Americans who are blind or who have other severe disabilities. DLA is the JWOD Program's largest contracting agency for the third year in a row. In Fiscal Year 2002, DLA's JWOD purchases amounted to $363.5 million or 25 percent of the total JWOD business.
http://www.jwod.gov/jwod/library/MOS/MOS_DLA_Lippert_9.16.03.htm

........ DoD (Department of Defense) is a major supporter of the JWOD Program with contractual support to a variety of services and products. Today, Americans with disabilities provide such vital support as grounds maintenance, custodial service, call centers, laundry operations, digital imaging, and award winning food services at installation dining facilities feeding service members over 25 million meals annually. The JWOD Program also provides a large variety of products to DoD Agencies including many military unique items such as chemical protective suits, uniforms and first aid kits. ........
http://www.jwod.gov/jwod/library/MOS/MOS_DOD_Lee_9.29.03.htm

Our Air Force experience with these JWOD product and service providers has been extremely positive overall, prompting many of our Air Force activities to seek even greater opportunities to promote JWOD contracting efforts.
http://www.jwod.gov/jwod/library/MOS/MOS_AirForce_Williams_Beaman_9.30.03.htm

RMKS/1. Serving the citizens of this country is one of the proudest traditions of the United States Marine Corps. We are especially privileged that this high purpose includes people who are blind and severely disabled. One way this is carried out is through a steadfast commitment to support the Javits-Wagner-O'Day (JWOD) Program. ........
4. The employment opportunities that result from Government purchases genuinely help the citizens of this country who are disabled achieve the economic independence and enjoy the dignity associated with having meaningful jobs. In return, the products and services provided consistently meet the high quality standards that we expect from all suppliers.
http://www.jwod.gov/jwod/library/MOS/MOS_USMC_Jones_10.9.02.htm

The military seems satisfied.
But certain persons who have made three left turns at full speed
are not happy with Skilcraft
and have openly stated that Skilcraft clocks
do not tell the correct time.
Tell it to the Marines.
"The products and services provided consistently meet the high quality standards that we expect from all suppliers."

Now,
we all know how you hang, BOLOboffin,
and just how difficult it is to convince you of ANYTHING,
so here is one final testimonial just for you.

........ President George W. Bush, in his New Freedom Initiative for people with disabilities, cites the 70 percent unemployment rate for this population, and pledges the Administration's commitment to increasing the ability of Americans with disabilities to integrate into the workforce. The major challenges to productive employment of qualified people with disabilities are barriers such as attitudes and false assumptions about what people can and cannot do. What people with disabilities can do is he productive.
Your efforts to use JWOD products and services and infom1 your colleagues about this program will help ensure that the U.S. Army makes an important contribution to President Bush's goal of fulfilling America's promise to Americans with disabilities. ........
(signed)
R. L. Brownlee
Acting Secretary of the Army
http://www.jwod.gov/jwod/library/MOS/MOS_Army_Brownlee_10.2.03.htm
http://www.jwod.gov/jwod/library/memos_of_support.html

[MercutioATC]

25. THAT'S the best you can do?

"When you trash Skilcraft,
you are trashing the Federal Government
of the United States of America
that awarded the contract."

So, government contracts are above reproach now?

Actually, I'm "trashing" neither the government, Skilcraft nor the disabled people who make the clocks. I'm simply stating that I work in a government facility (that, of course, uses Skilcraft wall clocks) and the clocks are frequently unreliable.

Demonize me all you like, but the fact remains...the clocks are at least occasionally innacurate (by more than a minute or two).

Seriously, I expected a better retort....

[seatnineb]

27. Not so fast Mercutio.........

How many people were there in the vicinity of the Pentagon with clocks that were INACCURATE BY EXACTLY THE SAME TIME!

Because.......

It looks like the Danish Foreign minister and the skilcraft clocks are not the only witnesses to something happening at the Pentagon at 9:32am on 9/11/2001..............


FIRST-PERSON: Pentagon official recounts events that spared his life
By: Lt. Col. Franklin Childress

My office was ground zero for the jet that hit the Pentagon. My office was totally destroyed, most of my co-workers were killed or severely injured, but I was spared. On that particular day, I AT MY APARTMENT waiting to receive a baggage shipment.

I worked with the Transportation Office at a NEARBY MILITARY INSTALLATION for delivery of my household goods from Hawaii.

I was sitting on my balcony watching and waiting for the moving company truck that was to deliver my baggage to arrive AT 9:32 A.M WHEN I THOUGHT I HEARD WHAT WAS A SONIC BOOM. Then I heard fire trucks and ambulances rushing through the streets. I turned on the TV and was appalled to see that an American Airlines jet had crashed into the Pentagon.
http://www.aspecialplace.net/America/wtc.htm

[objection]

28. He says

"waiting for the moving company truck that was to deliver my baggage to arrive at 9:32 a.m"

N.B. "was to" as opposed possibly to "while the truck was delivering on time at..."

The delivery was late. 9:32 had passed.

[k-robjoe]

30. late?

> " The delivery was late. 9:32 had passed."

How did you reach that conclusion?

( Did you maybe miss a "maybe"? )

On edit :
Answering my own question : You reached it because you know there is no conspiracy, and so 09:37 is the truth?

[objection]

32. Mathematics

9:37 is later than 9:32

How and why should there be any doubt about the time?

The Flight 77 black box was found.
Air traffic radar tapes were recorded.
Contemporaneous emergency service radio tapes were recorded.

Why should a conspiracy be possible at 9:32 but not at 9:37?
To serve what purpose would the time be faked?
How could they hope to get away with it?
Why take the risk?
What difference is it supposed to make?

[DulceDecorum]

34. The Flight 77 black box was found????

Goody goody gumdrops!!!
Don't stop there!!!
Tell us all what they found.
And more importantly,
WHERDY GO?

Of course, as Flight77 was not the plane involved in the PentagonAttack, it's black boxes would presumably show that, and the government would be very reluctant to allow the data to be examined, or allow the NTSB to carry out the investigation of the crash that is required by law.
http://911review.org/Wiki/Flight77BlackBoxes.shtml

[objection]

46. Where were you?

would be the question!

1000 days after ther event and all this clever talk, you know nothing about the black box?

No kidding?


"Early Friday morning, shortly before 4 a.m., Burkhammer and another firefighter, Brian Moravitz, were combing through debris near the impact site. Peering at the wreckage with their helmet lights, the two spotted an intact seat from the plane’s cockpit with a chunk of the floor still attached. Then they saw two odd-shaped dark boxes, about 1.5 by 2 feet long. They’d been told the plane’s “black boxes” would in fact be bright orange, but these were charred black. The boxes had handles on one end and one was torn open. They cordoned off the area and called for an FBI agent, who in turn called for someone from the National Transportation Safety Board who confirmed the find: the black boxes from American Airlines Flight 77."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3069699/


from the Washington Post, September 16, 2001 (Page A29)
Guy Gugliotta and David S. Fallis Staff Writers:

"Federal investigators had hoped to obtain critical information about the hijackings from the downed planes' "black boxes," but the recorders on the jets that crashed into the Pentagon and into rural Pennsylvania were badly damaged, Tucker said, and are being returned to the manufacturer in hopes that some data can be retrieved."


Are the National Transportation Safety Board and the manufacturer also in on the conspiracy?

[DulceDecorum]

63. What was extracted from the black boxes?

Ojection, old chap, have we met before?
Your manners
are remincent of a certain sock puppet or two
who found their way OUT of the Democratic Underground.

NOTHING was EVER extracted from the Penta-black-boxes.

Both black boxes from the hijacked aircraft which crashed into the Pentagon have also been recovered and turned over to the Federal Aviation Administration.
However, according to a report in the Washington Times, investigators have so far failed to extract information from the Pentagon attack voice recorder because it was so badly damaged.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1543564.stm

In a setback to the investigation, the FBI confirmed that the black box cockpit voice recorder from the Pentagon attack is too badly damaged to be of any use.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1553754.stm

Flight recorders that survived the Pennsylvania and Washington, D.C., crashes hold telltale data. Here's how they work.
http://www.business2.com/b2/web/articles/1,17863,514001,00.html

In 1965, the ICAO mandated the installation of CVRs in commercial aircraft, which use magnetic tape as their recording device. This mandate provided the impetus for engineers to equip FDRs with ¼-in. magnetized Mylar tape. The number of parameters recorded has increased over the years—to 11 in older 737s and to more than 100 in the newest commercial-aircraft models. The latest FDRs can record more than 300 parameters, but the law presently requires newer airplanes to record only 28. The length of time that the recordings cover has also increased; it is now 25 hours. All CVRs and FDRs come with an underwater-locator beacon to help search crews find it in the event of an accident over water. The beacon, called a "pinger," activates when the recorder is immersed in water. It transmits over a 37.5-kHz frequency an acoustical signal that a special receiver can detect. The beacon can transmit from depths of 14,000 ft. Both CVRs and FDRs must be able to withstand an impact force of 3400Gs, have a fire resistance of 1100°C for 30 minutes, sustain a water pressure equivalent to being submerged 20,000 ft, and have an operational battery life of 30 days.
The main reason for recording more data than is mandated by law is that the information is valuable to maintenance personnel and even to designers of new airplanes. Inspecting data collected over a number of flights allows maintenance personnel to validate and modify schedules and procedures. Designers and systems engineers are interested in the way particular components wear with use and how they might modify electrical and mechanical configurations to improve performance, safety, and durability.
http://www.reed-electronics.com/ednmag/article/CA178107?pubdate=10%2F25%2F2001

In late 1997 the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) adopted a change requiring an increase in the number of recorded signals for flight data recorders (FDR). This rule change will affect many airplanes that operate under FAA rules, including all airplanes registered in the United States and those in other countries where regulatory authorities use the FAA rules as their own. Boeing is prepared to help operators meet the requirements of the rule change by its effective date, which varies according to each airplane's date of manufacture.
In the interest of further increasing safety in the commercial airplane industry, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration has effected a rule change that increases the amount of flight information collected in flight data recorders (FDR). The ability to gather additional information after a commercial airplane accident or incident can result in a more thorough investigation, as well as help the industry identify trends and make necessary modifications to prevent future accidents and incidents. Boeing is offering operators the support they need to meet the requirements of the new FAA rule by the date of compliance.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_02/textonly/s01txt.html

You know what guys, we just gotta hand it to Hani Hanjour.
The plastic Skilcraft electric clock survives without a single scratch
and the black boxes are destroyed beyond belief.
All in the same incident!
I can't even be angry at the man.
I am just filled with awe.
And disgust for the FBI.

Somewhere in that massive pile of rubble lay two mangled metal containers that might reveal what happened aboard American Airlines Flight 77 in the minutes before terrorists crashed it into America's military headquarters. As a cockpit voice recorder analyst for the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), it was Cushman's job to help locate the airplane's black boxes, as the voice and data recorders that all airliners carry are known informally. It was the first crash site she'd visited.
Over the next few days, working the 3 p.m. to morning shift, she and several other NTSB experts struggled to separate airplane parts from office parts. Early on the morning of Sept.14, while Cushman was at the site, the cockpit voice recorder, or CVR, was found. IT WAS QUICKLY TRANSPORTED ACROSS THE POTOMAC TO THE NTSB LAB IN WASHINGTON, D.C., WHERE CUSHMAN WORKS WITH THREE OTHER ANALYSTS, AND ITS DATA WAS DOWNLOADED.
ORDINARILY, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN JUST THE START OF CUSHMAN'S ASSOCIATION WITH THE DEVICE, BUT THIS TIME, IT WAS THE END. The events of Sept. 11 had already been classified as criminal acts, rather than accidents, so the FBI, which has its own forensic audio lab, took charge of the box and its data.
That's also why Cushman can't say much more about her role in that investigation, or about the work she did on the recorders recovered from Flight 93, which plowed into a field in Pennsylvania after passengers apparently thwarted another hijacking. Like the Pentagon CVR, the black box from that plane came to NTSB only for the extraction of its data before being turned over to the FBI. The recorders from the two planes that struck the World Trade Center have yet to be found.
http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/hear.html

NTSB Identification: DCA01MA064
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of American Airlines
Accident occurred Tuesday, September 11, 2001 in Arlington, VA
Aircraft: Boeing 757-200, registration: N644AA
Injuries: 189 Fatal.
This event is being investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation as a criminal act.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020123X00105&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/Response2.asp

Let's take a look at what the FAA reveals in each section:
1) At least we have confirmation that the recordings of these communications exist.
<snip>
I find it hard to think of a legitimate reason why such vital documents concerning a public nightmare should be withheld. If we've been told the complete truth about what happened onboard those flights, how would the release of these recordings jeopardize investigations into 9/11? The only answer that makes any sense is that the communications from the planes reveal things which we haven't been told.
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/foia-communications.htm
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/

objection SAYS:
1000 days after ther event and all this clever talk, you know nothing about the black box?
No kidding?





NO KIDDING.

[k-robjoe]

43. Why

>"Why should a conspiracy be possible at 9:32 but not at 9:37?
To serve what purpose would the time be faked?"

I don´t know yet. In fact, all the theories I can think of as yet, is taking me places that I don´t want to go.

So some witness statements (or any other evidence) that would remove all doubt, would be welcome.

I came across this today, but it doesn´t seem all that trustworthy
( At the time 09:43 was the official time, so that´s what he´s saying ):

"Lieutenant Kevin Shaeffer, U.S. Navy (Retired) : "At exactly 0943, the entire command center exploded in a gigantic orange fireball, and I felt myself being slammed to the deck by a massive and thunderous shock wave."

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jpdesm/pentagon/pages-en/dam-in...

( This link is J.P. Desmoulins article on the damages inside the Pentagon. It has just been updated with some interesting stuff, for anyone interested. )

[seatnineb]

70. Clock has back up testimony!

Objection asks.....
"How and why should there be any doubt about the time? "

Heres why...........

Looks like the danish foreign minister was not the only one with A clock that was 6 minutes slow............

Instead, she told me what had happened. Two hijacked jetliners had crashed into the World Trade Center, and something was burning over by the Pentagon. We didn't know what had happened there yet. It was only AROUND 9:30.
http://www.xanga.com/item.asp?user=Fuego_de_Noche&tab=weblogs&uid=4294412

Is it just me or was everybody in the Pentagon on 9/11/01 at least 6 minutes behind the rest of the outside world?

Quigley said he had no information on the allegedly
hijacked commercial aircraft that crashed into an outside
wall of the Pentagon AROUND 9:30 a.m. Eastern time today.
http://www.usmcvta.org/release/attackonamericachron3.htm


Falldine's meeting was to take place near the building's newly renovated portion, but it had yet to begin. He said he was sitting with a group of people watching the events in New York unfold on television when, at ABOUT 9:30 a.m., EDT, the airliner hit the Pentagon
http://www.af.mil/news/Nov2001/n20011023_1505.asp.


But as they watched, the plane began turning to the right away from the White House, circling a full 270 degrees to the right and approaching the Pentagon from the southwest. It then dropped below radar level, disappearing from the controllers’ screens, shortly before hitting the Pentagon ABOUT 9:30 am, less than an hour after two other aircraft hit the World Trade Center towers in New York City.
http://poly.union.rpi.edu/article_view.php3?view=793&part=1.

Meanwhile, ABOUT 8:30 a.m. CDT,an airliner hit the Pentagon
http://www.tulsaworld.com/assault/A_3_9_12.pdf

As the time NEARED 9:30 a.m., Braman had put away his purchases and left his receipt with an accountant. He'd poured himself a bowl of Shredded Wheat, made a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and carried his breakfast to his desk, which was wedged in a narrow room lined with fridges and food lockers.
As he hung up, the building jerked under his feet. Braman was pitched forward into a wooden liquor cabinet, and a moment later the lights went out and a sergeant burst from another office into the hall. ``There's a bomb!'' she screamed. ``A bomb! Oh my God!'' The floor rolled. To Braman, who grew up outside Los Angeles, it felt just like an earthquake.
http://www.pilotonline.com/special/911/pentagon2.html.

I watched the World Trade Center news coverage in our on-site trailers but had to LEAVE FOR A 9:30 meeting in the Pentagon.
Suddenly we all heard a faint boom and a shake of the building. We all went silent and stared at each other waiting to see if anything else was going to happen. Nothing did,we weren't sure what had just happened.
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/DavidRubando.htm

At ABOUT 9:30 or so, I stepped out of the office to use the men's restroom, telling Cheryl and Sandy that I'd be back in a moment. And those would be the last words I'd say to them
So I had taken maybe six or seven steps out of the men's restroom doorway when I heard something quite loud. I just had a nanosecond to think, "Bomb!" It was just instantaneous. One second, everything is normal. Then, a second later, everything is just black. Instantaneous. Then I'm burning, the building around me is burning. It's pitch black other then the ambient glow of all the fire. It was just a pretty ghastly experience to go through.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/980181/posts


And here is probably my favorite from a poster at the newground website............

POSTED 9/11/01 10:35 AM

I don't know if y'all heard what happened. The two WTC building were hit by two kamikazee TERRORIST planes. They got token out bad - smoking like two roman candles. Also A BOMB went off in Washington DC - in I believe the PENTAGON building. The damage to the WTC was so bad that ONE tower has COMPLETELY COLLAPSED and is COMPLETELY destroyed. I have been watching this ALL MORNING.
http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic.php?id=13939.

Objection asks....
"How could they hope to get away with it?"

How?

Because people like you fall for it.

[k-robjoe]

71. Good work!

( The last one must go out, it was posted at 10:35, not 09:35 )

[seatnineb]

72. Thanks Kjell......

Although.....

The reason I cited the poster from newground.....
Was because he says this(I should have quoted his entire message in my previous post)

POSTED 10:35am 9/11/01

"The damage to the WTC was so bad that ONE tower has COMPLETELY COLLAPSED and is COMPLETELY destroyed. I have been watching this ALL MORNING."


"I live right across the HUDSON RIVER and see the WTC buildings like they were a few blocks away. I was home when the first explosion happened (like 8 years ago?). I heard that EXPLOSION and I looked out my window. I was also home when a blimp crashed into the WTC and I looked outside and saw that crazy image.

"A whole F*CKING World Trade Center Tower is tore down. It looks like the end of the world - if you could see TV. If you are lucky you have CNN. The weird shit is all the TV communications are in the WTC and when the tower went out - so do all the TV channels."

"When shit like this happens - I think what will happen? Who is our president? What will he do? This shit is crazy. I am going to go outside and take in some more of the mayhem. Right now it's crazy."

If 10:35am is the correct time then at this point BOTH towers should be down....

Even if he was on his computer whilst the North tower fell.....he would have known.....

This stuff just gets weirder and weirder!

But thanks for the correction anyways..........

[seatnineb]

31. Objection, your honour.......

You missed the point.

The gentleman in question also thought that he heard a sonic boom at the same time.(Being a military officer he would know the distinction).

I never new a commercial airliner could brake the sound barrier.

Another feather in the cap for AA77 pilot wiz Hani........

[objection]

33. Being a military officer he would know the distinction

In the same sort of way that military officers in direct sight of the aircraft when it approached and hit the building would know what it was and what it was up to?

Or are those out of sight of the object somehow supposed to have a better idea of the event?

[seatnineb]

36. Objection,Your honour.

Objection declares.........
"In the same sort of way that military officers in direct sight of the aircraft when it approached and hit the building would know what it was and what it was up to? "

Just like this particular pentagon worker?

"Ten minutes later, this plane was just coming at a crazy angle. It was coming in fast! All of a sudden it got very, very big. It just got loud and big. You ever hear the wind howling real loud out your window? It was like, VOOVOOOVOOO. I said, "Oh, shit!" and the plane took a nosedive. It looked like it hit the bottom of the building and blew up into the building. A big ball of orange flame comes up. Glass is flying. Pieces of building were flying. (I actually still have a piece of the building.) Pieces of the plane were hitting our booth. "
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0802/083002nj4.htm

Shame she saw it at least 20 to 25 minutes before anyone else did!

"It seemed like an eternity. Gosh, this happened at least about 9:10, 9:15, and I stayed in that same vicinity until about noon or 12:30."
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0802/083002nj4.htm

[objection]

38. In the context

"At least" presumably means 'not before'.
Where did you learn your English?

[k-robjoe]

44. For my part

I disagree that it must have been a sonic boom he heard. If there was a sonic boom, surely more people would have reported hearing it.
He thought it was a sonic boom because that would be something that could be explainable, not "unbelievable". We all know how expectation steers ones perseptions.

[DulceDecorum]

35. A five inch shell?

Paul S. Brady, 66, another retired officer who had served on a cruiser during the 1962 U.S. blockade of Cuba and was now a program analyst with the anti-drug group, was at his desk toward the back of the room, trying to concentrate on his work. A self-descrlbed "crusty old sea dog," he had pictures of his 10 grandchildren tacked to his wall.
And Rick Sandelli was headed for the stopped clock that hung above Brady's desk. "It was stuck at about 20 minutes to 10," Sandelli said, "it was probably more like 10 of 10." He walked up, stopped. "What a stupid clock," he thought. But before he could reach out disaster struck.
What followed was a deep, thunderous roar as the hijacked airliner slammed into the outer or E Ring, of the 59-year-old concrete hulk of the Pentagon at full throttle.
It sounded, said one former turret officer, "like a five-inch shell going off."
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/news/news_stories/pent-wppost.html

[Robb]

60. This is where I should chime in

In late 2002, after it turned out what I had found in PA wasn't a sonic boom, I spent some time going back and forth with Ed Haering at NASA on exactly what one would look like when recorded with seismic monitoring equipment.

I can say with relative certainty none of the seismographs "near" the Pentagon recorded a sonic boom in that hour (9-10 AM).

OK, back to the conversation. :)

[MercutioATC]

50. But they weren't off by the same amount of time, they differed from

each other by a minute. That's my point here. Use witnesses if you'd like (though they're frequently innacurate, too) but the clocks you claim to be so accurate were actually off by (at least) a minute...quite possibly more.

[Abe Linkman]

61. Clocks are like eyewitnesses.

Different clocks display different times. Eyewitnesses have different recollections and give wildly varying accounts. (except for those who are giving an account that supports the "Cavepeople Crashed Into The Pentagon In THE Plane" Official Conspiracy Theory)

[MercutioATC]

62. Wow! We actually agree on something!

"Different clocks display different times."

That's what I've been saying all along.

[LARED]

26. Let me help you out here

Why did the clock stop?

The movement stopped moving. This happened for one of two reasons. It lost its power supply. Or the movement broke when it fell off the wall. There is one other possibility I did not mention and that is that Rumsfeld planted it in a cleverly devised plot to tarnish the Skilcraft company so it would put disabled people out of work.

And what do they mean by saying that it was six minutes slow?

Hummmm! I think it means that the clock stopped six minutes before the accepted time that flight 77 impacted the Pentagon. There are number of reasons this happened. The clock was six minutes slow. Perhaps it was set incorrectly. Perhaps when the clock fell off the wall it jarred the movement, hence changing the time. Maybe Rumsfeld is so stupid that when he planted the clock he forgot to set it correctly.

And of course there is the other possibility that no one has mentioned. The most diabolical aspect of all. Bush has a time machine and the whole 9/11 event was pulled off by stopping time for the whole world for 5 minutes. During this time period (or lack of time period) they were able to pull off the bumble bee scenario, get demolition teams into the WTC, and ........ well you can figure out the rest. Just imagine, I was able to expose this covert operation by connecting the dots between the "slowed" clocks and the crash into the pentagon.

[objection]

29. There is no need to be so silly.

Renovation work was in progress. The renovation included electric wiring. That's why cable spools and a mobile electricity generator were sat nearby. It would not then be so strange to suffer a few minutes worth of interruptions to the power supply would it?

[DulceDecorum]

40. The movement broke when it fell off the wall?

Then why the heck are there no scratches on the front of the clock?
As for the electric power:
"They got us," Kidd said her first thought was. "The lights went out and the ceiling fell in on me," she said.
http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/6_46/local_news/12049-1.html
Is this any way to run an ATC tower at the PENTAGON??
And they HAD generators lying around all over the place too.

A third Local F253 member, Dennis Young, was inside the Pentagon's fire house facility. He'd been watching the reports of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center on television when he heard a loud noise. Ceiling tiles lifted from the pressure as a ball of fire rolled through the station.
The fire house was demolished but, other than twisting his ankle when he was trying to get out of the building, Young was unhurt.
http://www.iaff.org/across/news/archives/102401local.html

The third firefighter, Dennis Young, was inside the building when the plane hit but emerged unscathed shortly after the crash.
"I heard the sound of the engine and then the crunch," Wallace said.
He said he felt the explosion and that from his position he was able to see debris falling all around him. He said he thinks he lay under the truck for about five seconds before calling out to see if Mark was okay. The two of them located each other and Young emerged from a decimated part of the building.
http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/6_37/local_news/10386-1.html

"I went between the heliport and the building," he said. He met a fellow DPS officer and they heard people in the heliport building screaming for help. Together they boosted a maintenance worker inside who cleared debris and started handing people through.
"That maintenance man, I wish I knew his name. He was a real hero," Clodfelter said. "The first out was a young mother. She passed me her 4-month old baby."
A Pentagon worker named Kirk Hamlet came up and helped.
"I went back and got another individual out," Clodfelter continued. By then, a crash truck parked next to the heliport was on fire. He told Hamlet and his partner that they had to work faster. Hamlet and Clodfelter were pulling out another woman when the truck exploded. "(My partner) pushed me down," Clodfelter said. "He saved my life."
http://www.dcmilitary.com/marines/hendersonhall/6_39/local_news/10797-1.html
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2001/n09242001_200109242.html

And now, ladies and gentlemen,
creatures from the darkside,
go find a photo
which shows the damage done to
the "demolished"
or "decimated"
heliport building.
(Can anyone tell us who gave that four-month-old baby security clearance?)

[LARED]

41. Then why the heck are there no scratches on the front of the clock?

Is there a glass or plastic front on the clock? I can't tell. Maybe it broke in the fall.

Maybe the clock fell on the side or back?

[Abe Linkman]

42. Maybe it landed on the baby. Or, the sofa. Or, maybe it's all a lie.

Let's see -- gotta be SOMETHING here that can explain the inexplicable.

Maybes, coincidences, might haves, theoretically could haves, negligence, incompetence, intel failures, bureaucratic snafus, and the all-purpose "Evil Doers who hate us for our freedoms" < don't laugh. this was all before the "Patriot" Act >

[LARED]

47. inexplicable?

Are you trying to sell a story that a clock fell off the wall and broke as being inexplicable.

Abe, put down the bong.

[DulceDecorum]

64. Broke? The clock broke?

Where?
How?
Show me.

The fact of the matter is that the very famous clock in the Smithsonian has run out of time.
It's fifteen minutes of fame are up.

Why you ask?
Provenance.

What is Provenance?
Provenance means the source of something and, in a museum context, is used to denote the history of ownership from the time an object is created until it is acquired by the museum.
http://www.qag.qld.gov.au/provenance/default.htm

Let us check the provenance of this clock.



We first become aware of the existence of the clock via the
National Museum of American History, Smithsonian Institution.

At the National Museum of American History, the attacks of September 11, 2001, affected us personally and professionally. Shortly after the attacks, we began discussing what our role as a museum should be and concluded that we had a responsibility to document the events of September 11 in the National Collections.
The immediacy and deadly nature of the events posed particular collecting challenges. We worried about appearing ghoulish in the face of bereavement, about important material deteriorating or even being thrown out, and about whether we understood enough about the events to document them for posterity. And we knew we would have to be selective—we cannot collect everything.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/about.asp

On September 11, 2002, the Smithsonian’s National Museum of American History opened a new exhibition to commemorate the first anniversary of the terrorist attacks on America. September 11: Bearing Witness to History presented a compelling selection of objects, images, and personal stories from that unforgettable day. Visitors were invited to share their own stories and reflect on how September 11 has affected their lives.
The exhibition closed at the Museum on July 6, 2003. During its ten-month run, it attracted over a million visitors from across the nation and around the world. Thousands of stories were collected and added to the September 11 Digital Archive.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/exhibition/index.asp

Pentagon helipad clock
Description: This Skilcraft electric wall clock, which hung in the Pentagon helipad fire station, was knocked to the ground by the impact of American Airlines flight 77 crashing into the Pentagon.
Context: When terrorists flew American Airlines flight 77 into the Pentagon, the crash nearly took the nearby Pentagon helipad firehouse with it. The concussion caused the ceiling of the firehouse to collapse, temporarily trapping firefighter Dennis Young in the fallen debris. The blast also knocked this clock from the wall, freezing it at 9:32. The airplane actually struck the Pentagon at 9:38 am; apparently the clock was six minutes slow.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=19

The clock in question is described as having come directly from
Location: Pentagon
Source: Gift of Dennis Young

So far, so good.

Dennis Young
was the firefighter who was inside the Pentagon helipad firehouse
when the plane allegedly crashed.

Dennis Young
is the person who donated the clock to the Smithsonian.

We know, that that Skilcraft sells clocks DIRECTLY to the Department of Defense
and therefore it is very reasonable to assume (for now)
that the clock was installed within the Pentagon helipad firehouse soon after being purchased from Skilcraft.

But this leaves with with one small problem.
Ownership.

Larceny is the wrongful taking and carrying away of personal property which is in the possession of another with the intent to convert it or permanently deprive the owner thereof.
1. Wrongful taking -- The state must show that there was an element of control, however brief, over someone else's property by the defendant. Control doesn't mean touching. If you sell someone else's bicycle to a passerby, even if you didn't touch it, you have taken it. The same with financial transactions; you don't need to actually handle money to take it. A common defense to this element is "borrowing". Since larceny is a specific intent crime, the law requires considering whether there's an intent to steal or a genuine intent to return something.
There's no such thing as "finder's keepers" for lost or mislaid property under Theft Law. All states have little-known statutes establishing the standards by which a reasonable effort must be made to find the true owner. However, if there's no real way of ever finding the true owner (like finding a dollar bill on the sidewalk), the taking does not constitute larceny.
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/293/293lect11.htm

That clock was on the wall of the Pentagon helipad.
The Smithsonian itself says so.
That clock then entered the ownership of the Smithsonian via the Penta-fire-fighter known as Dennis Young.
In other words,
a civilian from Fort Myers
by the name of Dennis Young
REMOVED that clock from the premises of the Pentagon.

United States Code
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 31 - EMBEZZLEMENT AND THEFT
Section 641. Public money, property or records

Whoever embezzles, steals, purloins, or knowingly converts to his
use or the use of another, or without authority, sells, conveys or
disposes of any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the
United States or of any department or agency thereof, or any
property made or being made under contract for the United States or
any department or agency thereof; or
Whoever receives, conceals, or retains the same with intent to
convert it to his use or gain, knowing it to have been embezzled,
stolen, purloined or converted -
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten
years, or both; but if the value of such property does not exceed
the sum of $1,000, he shall be fined under this title or imprisoned
not more than one year, or both.
The word ''value'' means face, par, or market value, or cost
price, either wholesale or retail, whichever is greater.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/31/sections/section_641.html

Dennis Young seized at least one souvenir of September 11.
Just like his boss.

Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita said Friday night that Rumsfeld has a shard of metal from the jetliner that struck the Pentagon on a table in his office and shows it to people as a reminder of the tragedy Pentagon workers shared on Sept. 11, 2001.
"He doesn't consider it his own," Di Rita said, adding the piece is on display for the Pentagon. "We are mindful of the fact that if somebody has an evidentiary requirement to have this shard of metal, we will provide it to them."
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/printer_4216.shtml

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=John+10%3A10&version=WE

As for the time that said clock is telling,
what does it matter?
Dennis Young had AMPLE opportunity to adjust it,
both BEFORE and AFTER
the alleged plane crash.
That clock is IRRETRIEVABLY COMPROMISED
and cannot be entered into evidence in any court of law
UNLESS
said court of law has convened for the sole purpose of enforcing
United States Code
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 31 - EMBEZZLEMENT AND THEFT
Section 641. Public money, property or records.

Sorry folks,
Dennis Young just pulled a Mark Furman.
And the Smithsonian knows it.
Now we will have to scrutinize the other clock,
and everything else in that Smithsonian exhibit.

[LARED]

67. DD, A nice bit of investigative work

Which of course raises the question, so what?

So the clock as given to the museum by Mr. Young. Perhaps he even took it without permission.

But I have news for you. The clock is not evidence. No one is going to persecute him. It's just a piece of history. He gave it to museum, he did not try to profit from it.

Is there some point to this so called clock mystery? Why is it such a mystery that the clock was broken or that the time was incorrect? Clocks break all the time and are slow without needing to have a plane crash into a building.

Why does anyone give a rats rear end about the clocks?

[DulceDecorum]

73. Your legal expertise

outweighs your engineering skills.

LARED says:
So the clock as given to the museum by Mr. Young. Perhaps he even took it without permission.
But I have news for you. The clock is not evidence. No one is going to persecute him. It's just a piece of history. He gave it to museum, he did not try to profit from it.

Read
United States Code
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 31 - EMBEZZLEMENT AND THEFT
Section 641. Public money, property or records
again.

Especially the portions which have been capitalized.

WHOEVER EMBEZZLES, STEALS,'PURLOINS, OR
KNOWINGLY CONVERTS TO HIS USE OR THE USE OF ANOTHER, OR
WITHOUT AUTHORITY,
sells, CONVEYS OR
DISPOSES OF ANY record, voucher, money, or
THING OF VALUE OF THE UNITED STATES
OR OF ANY DEPARTMENT or agency thereof,
OR ANY PROPERTY MADE or being made
UNDER CONTRACT FOR THE UNITED STATES OR OF ANY DEPARTMENT OR AGENCY THEREOF; OR
WHOEVER RECEIVES, conceals, OR RETAINS THE SAME
WITH INTENT TO CONVERT IT TO HIS USE OR GAIN,
KNOWING IT TO HAVE BEEN EMBEZZLED, STOLEN, PURLOINED, OR CONVERTED -
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten
years, or both; but
IF THE VALUE OF SUCH PROPERTY DOES NOT EXCEED THE SUM OF $1,000,
HE SHALL BE FINED UNDER THIS TITLE
OR IMPRISONED NOT MORE THAN ONE YEAR, OR BOTH.
The word ''value'' means face, par, or market value, or cost
price, either wholesale or retail, whichever is greater.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/31/sections/section_641.html

That,
coupled with the Smithsonian's own nicely prepared exhibit
should be worth a few dollars and/or
a few months worth of federal hospitality for
Dennis Young
and his accomplices,
who may or may not include the following persons,
and others,
who do not appear on this list.

Michelle Delaney
Collections Manager, Photographic History Collection
Shelly Foote
Assistant Chair, Division of Social History
William Yeingst
September 11 Collecting Curator
Museum Specialist, Division of Social History
Jim Gardner
Project Director, September 11: Bearing Witness to History
Associate Director for Curatorial Affairs
Peter Liebhold
September 11 Collecting Curator
Museum Specialist, Division of the History of Technology
Marc Pachter
Acting Director, National Museum of American History
David Shayt
September 11 Collecting Curator
Museum Specialist, Division of Cultural History
Helena Wright
Curator of Graphic Arts, Division of Information Technology & Society
http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/curators.asp

Incidentally,
here is a nice craft project
that Mr. Dennis Young can complete
and then
present to his cohorts
to catalogue
mount and exhibit.



LARED says:
Why does anyone give a rats rear end about the clocks?

I dunno.
Ask Bob.



Seeing as NO PLANE EVER crashed into the Pentagon,
there is NO record of the time at which this non-event occurred.

In the case of the other three incidents, the seismic studies produced by Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory have proved to be a reliable and often quoted source of some hard 9-11 facts, not least of which has been the precise time of each event. Its findings in respect of the Pentagon attack are cited less frequently.
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pentagon/spencer05.htm

Plane-huggers like to point to the clocks
since they have NOTHING ELSE to point to.

Since the time of plane impact at the Pentagon had often been reported with large scatter, the United States Army contacted us to inquire whether we could obtain an accurate time of the Pentagon attack on September 11, 2001 based upon our seismic network. We analyzed seismic records from five stations in the northeastern United States, ranging from 63 to 350 km from the Pentagon. Despite detailed analysis of the data, we could not find a clear seismic signal. Even the closest station (Ä = 62.8 km) at Soldier's Delight, Baltimore County, Maryland (SDMD) did not record the impact.
http://members.fortunecity.com/911/wtc/seismic/WTC_PENT_KIM.htm

[LARED]

74. DD, life is full of choices.

Seeing as NO PLANE EVER crashed into the Pentagon,
there is NO record of the time at which this non-event occurred.

Some easy, some not so easy. Enjoy your fantasies. I know I do.

[DulceDecorum]

81. Wanna earn an easy $10,000?

donhakman will give that much for a
"for a photo or video of the plane before it hit the pentagon while traveling over the DC landmarks full of tourists."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=14637&mesg_id=14637

Do it LARED.
Tell us
once and for all
WHERDY GO?

And then you can laugh
all the way to the bank.

[LARED]

84. Sure, except for one small problem

I don't have a picture of flight 77. I don't have a picture of any plane, missile, truck bomb, nothing impacting the Pentagon.

Apparently no one does.

Don't gloss over the fact that there is no photo of ANY aircraft. If the logic is that there should be a photo somewhere of flight 77 then the logic holds up that there should be a photo of your imaginary missile, jet, whatever the pet theory of the day floating around in the fevered swamp of 9/11 revision land.

[Bolo Boffin]

87. Nice one, LARED

If the logic is that there should be a photo somewhere of flight 77 then the logic holds up that there should be a photo of your imaginary missile, jet, whatever the pet theory of the day floating around in the fevered swamp of 9/11 revision land.

:toast:

[DulceDecorum]

89. Now what is the message there?

The message is that there are no "knowns." There are thing we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. So when we do the best we can and we pull all this information together, and we then say well that's basically what we see as the situation, that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns.
It sounds like a riddle. It isn't a riddle. It is a very serious, important matter.
There's another way to phrase that and that is that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It is basically saying the same thing in a different way. Simply because you do not have evidence that something exists does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist. And yet almost always, when we make our threat assessments, when we look at the world, we end up basing it on the first two pieces of that puzzle, rather than all three.
-- Secretary Rumsfeld
Press Conference at NATO Headquarters,
Brussels, Belgium

"If I know the answer I'll tell you the answer,
and if I don't,
I'll just respond,
cleverly."
http://politicalhumor.about.com/cs/quotethis/a/rumsfeldquotes.htm

LARED has now demonstrated that he is indeed Rumsfeld's "grasshopper."

[LARED]

90. Your post reminded me of something

I went to a training class many years ago given by a business psychologist. He said;

People can be unaware they are unaware they are unaware.

It could be the answer to the 9/11 revisionist riddle.

[Woody Box]

37. CNN: Pentagon on fire - Aired September 11, 2001 - 09:31 ET

www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.02.html

Seems CNN has the same sloppy clocks as the ones at Mercutio's working place...

[k-robjoe]

39. I think

you missed a post Woody...

I was also corrected on this. See : post 19

( It´s late, and I didn´t read your link yet, so... )

[Woody Box]

45. No, kjaell, we were right

and Bob Stanford is wrong again...

I thought about maybe it's EDT time, too. But it's not:

1) In your article (9:42) the towers are still standing. I think at 10:42 EST (=9:42 EDT) they would have reported the collapses, or not?

2) In my article (9:31) it's the same; both towers are still standing, and apart from the breaking news headline, we learn nothing about the pentagon crash (which we would have at 10:31 EST).

I wonder how quickly CNN was able to report the fire, though.

[k-robjoe]

55. You´re right

Tells me something about just how easy it is to miss this kind of things.

How curious that this issue hasn´t had hardly any attention.
Makes you wonder, what else haven´t we been paying any attention (!)?

[objection]

48. same sloppy interpretation?

compare post #19:

May be I´m wrong, but this seems to be a problem of ET (= EST) and EDT. All the timelimes on the Pentagon attack use Eastern Daylight Time (EDT); according to most timelines,the attack happened arround 9:38 EDT.

Concerning the CNN report you mentioned, I can read:

"Aired September 11, 2001 - 09:42 ET"

So it was aired at 10:42 EDT, wasn´t it?

[Woody Box]

52. objection rejected

You want to rewrite history?

ALL timelines of September 11 use EST because this was the valid time scale on this day.

The first plane hit the WTC at 8:46 EST.
The second plane hit the WTC at 9:03 EST.
The South tower collapsed at 9:27 EST.
The North tower collapsed at 9:59 EST.

So when was the pentagon attacked? Before or after the tower collapses?

[Woody Box]

53. correction

The first plane hit the WTC at 8:46 EST.
The second plane hit the WTC at 9:03 EST.
The South tower collapsed at 9:59 EST.
The North tower collapsed at 10:27 EST.

So when was the pentagon attacked? Before or after the tower collapses?

[Bob Stanford]

56. Americans: HELP ME!! (Daylight Saving Time)

woody:
ALL timelines of September 11 use EST because this was the valid time scale on this day.

No, I don´t think so. In New York, Washington, Arlington there was Eastern Daylight Saving Time (EDT) on 11th of Sept. 2001, as far as I know.

For that reason, obviously all timelines do NOT use Eastern Standard Time (EST), as woody states, but in Eastern Daylight Time, see here:

All times are Eastern Daylight Time.
http://www.911timeline.net

So AA impacted at arround 9:38 EDT, that ist 8:38 EST (=ET?).

So CNN aired on 10:32 or 10:31 EDT.

But woody isn´t an American, and I´m not an American, I do not know much about american timezones. So Americans, please help to clear up this point.

[Woody Box]

59. Standard Time, Daylight Saving Time, Summer Time

Oh, I see...obviously I misinterpreted "EST" as "Eastern Summer Time", because the American "Daylight Saving Time" is called "Summer Time" in Germany. Technically it's the same.

But this doesn't matter at all. I think everyone will agree to this rough timeline:

FIRST, the two planes hit the Twin Towers.

SECOND, explosion/impact/fire at the pentagon

THIRD, the Towers collapsed.

According to your theory, Bob, CNN aired the stuff at 10:31 EDT.

But then they would have reported the collapses of the Twin Towers, or do you disagree?

CNN aired the stuff at 9:31 EDT. Any other theory doesn't make sense.

[Bob Stanford]

65. You are wrong, woody. CNN aired at 10.23 EDT ...

.. at least that is what I think.

See this one:

Within the span of 18 minutes, two separate planes crashing into the World Trade Center.

This is from CNN, Aired September 11, 2001 - 08:48 ET
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.01.html

Hmmm, but didn´t the second plane crashed into the south tower at 9:03?

So "Aired September 11, 2001 - 08:48 ET" means Aired September 11, 2001 - 09:48 EDT

Could someone correct me, if I´m wrong?

[Woody Box]

66. You want to pull my leg, don't you?

Bob, I'm really getting angry. You're wasting my time, and repeatedly tell me I'm wrong when I'm not. In fact, you are wrong again.

The transcript begins at 8:48 ET. Do you think the time stops running then, so that the whole text has the time stamp 8:48?

This is the first sentence of the transcript:

This just in. You are looking at obviously a very disturbing live shot there. That is the World Trade Center, and have unconfirmed reports this morning that a plane has crashed into one of the towers of the World Trade Center.

One plane. One crash. One tower. Later in the text, the second crash is reported. Why is that so hard to grasp for you?

[Bob Stanford]

68. Is ET = EDT? woody, you miss the point

Woody told us, that there is some diinformation about the time of the pentagon attack, because this attack was reported by CNN "Aired September 11, 2001 - 09:31 ET"

I could have answered like this:

"The transcript begins at 9:31 ET. Do you think the time stops running then, so that the whole text has the time stamp 9:31?"

But now woody wants to use this argument against me....
:crazy:

So to say it clearly:

1) If - IF!!! - CNN really aired this report on 9:31 EDT, than we have to ask, at what time the headline was added. The text doesn´t mention the Pentagon at all.

2) I still think, that "9:31 ET" means "9:31 EST" which is 10:31 EDT. And we (i. e. all of us but not woody) know that all timelines are in EDT, not in EST.

[k-robjoe]

69. Bob,

If you go half way down in the article that I linked to you will find this :

" And we can tell you that two planes have crashed into the World Trade Center in New York, all of this began just a little more than an hour ago, at about 8:45 Eastern time."
( http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.03.html )

So can we at least agree about the hour?

When it comes to the minute :

The transcript is timed 09:42, so when he says halfway down "just a little more than an hour ago", that seems to fit very good.

( About the other article : You argue that the headline could have been added later. They don´t mention any fire. That doesn´t seem all implausible. But since they added it at 09:31, maybe it was coming in to them at (about)this time (like it apparently reached that N.Y. firestation at this time) , but it hadn´t yet "reached the screen".
I´m thinking, there must be some reason why they put it up at 09:31.) ( Does the 09:31 news report stretch far? There was another one coming at 09:42 (?) )

[gbwarming]

49. When do they add the titles?

The 9:31 breaking news report doesn't talk about the pentagon at all. It you look at the 9:42 report the story is just breaking. Seems quite plausible that the transcription or web flunkie just labeled the report incorrectly.

9:42 report http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.03.html

[ramblin_dave]

51. What is the issue here?

The two stopped clocks, the firefighter video and the CNN transcript all point to the Pentagon crash being about 9:30-9:32. If there is some official timeline that says 9:37, it's obviously wrong. But so what? Does this undermine some key aspect of the official story?

[Woody Box]

54. Oh yes, it undermines the official story

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/11/national/main310721.shtml

Eight minutes before the crash, at 9:30 a.m. EDT, radar tracked the plane as it closed to within 30 miles of Washington. Sources say the hijacked jet continued east at a high speed toward the city, but flew several miles south of the restricted airspace around the White House.

At 9:33 the plane crossed the Capitol Beltway and took aim on its military target. But the jet, flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn.

Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a-half minutes.

The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it's clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed.

The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph.

Note they use the wrong time again (EDT instead of EST). But this doesn't matter anyway, cause we're are talking about minutes, not hours.

[objection]

57. complex?

A smooth turn is not a complex maneuver.

I have seen that propaganda repeated ad infinutum but never yet as much as any data to establish the diameter of the turn. With no such data how then is it deemed to be complex?

[Woody Box]

58. You want to distract?

1) The term "complex" is not my invention, it's CBS speak.

2) Whether the maneuver was complex or not, it doesn't change the fact that the fire reported at 9:31 undermines the official story.

Case closed. Any more objections? No more distractions, please.

[Woody Box]

75. Naudet Video: Pentagon fire reported at 9:31

Here's a screenshot from the Naudet Video:



I would like to emphasize three points:

1) The german text , a translation of firefighter Tony's original words ( "The pentagon is fucking burning. This is war!").

2) The TV in the background -CNN running.

3) The clock.

Anyone in possession of the Naudet Video? I'm not.

[PerpetualYnquisitive]

76. I have their DVD.

I can confirm that your information is mostly correct, the quote is “The Pentagon? The Pentagon is on fucking fire. War, this is war.”, at least on my edition.

You may want to look closer at the first impact on their video as well, it clearly shows an explosion above the impact zone on both the North and East faces of the building, just below the roofline.

[k-robjoe]

78. Question

It´s not possible to see what time is displayed on the television, is it?

[PerpetualYnquisitive]

79. No clear view of the time on the T.V.

The caption on the screen is:

BREAKING NEWS

SOURCES: 1 PLANE WAS AN AMERICAN AIRLINES BOEING 767 FROM BOSTON.

It also has a CNN LIVE logo in bottom right corner.

The time is displayed in the bottom right of the t.v. screen which places it in an area not easily seen due to the curvature of the t.v. screen and that the camerman was not facing directly at it but was slightly off to the left.

Maybe someone has a home-taped copy of the live news broadcast that morning that could verify the time.

[Woody Box]

80. Probably not, but...

the CNN news coming out of the TV should match the 9:31 transcript that I posted before, so it should be possible to determine the time at least roughly (+- half a minute).

Is the CNN speaker understandable, Perpetual Ynquisitive?

[PerpetualYnquisitive]

82. Well, well, well...

Good idea there Woody, I have watched the video in slo-mo(no audio)so many times that I forgot to analyze the audio to match that transcript posted by k-robjoe. This is a chronological list of the parts that I could easily make out.

Here goes:

Just before it cuts to the interior of the firehouse this is what can be heard.

Announcer Voice: "We now have reports of a fire at the Pentagon. A fire at the Pentagon being reported this morning."

It then goes to the scene with the t.v. and clock on the wall.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: "I was just saying that officials are calling this an act of terrorism. They're saying clearly that is what it is. Clearly not an accident."

Transcript here: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.02.html

Gedeon: "Arriving back at the firehouse and Tony's still alone and he has no clue of what to do."

CHRIS PLANT, CNN PRODUCER: "The plume of smoke is enormous, it's a couple of hundreds yards across at its base."

Full transcript: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.03.html

Tony Benatatos: “The Pentagon, the Pentagon is on fucking fire. War, this is war.”

[gbwarming]

85. So the video tells us nothing. It cuts and mixes broadcasts.

For another perspective check out the earliest pentagon posts in the this old archived DU thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3984&forum=DCForumID5&archive=yes

pato1681 (1638 posts)
Sep-11-01, 09:41 AM (ET)
44. explosion at the pentagon
----------------------------
Democratic Solidarity!


sffreeways (6419 posts)
Sep-11-01, 09:42 AM (ET)
46. Explosion at Pentagon
I'm hearing this on MSNBC
"To live is to fly...low and high"

cowboy junkies


bpilgrim (10912 posts)
Sep-11-01, 09:45 AM (ET)
52. reporting on CNN of pentagon attack
large fire, building being evacuated

--
bpilgrim
http://globalfreepress.org
http://globalfreepress.com/images/header.
(Now for PDAs! - take THAT FOX)

". . . government of the People by the
People for the People shall not
perish from the Earth."
--Abraham Lincoln

[Woody Box]

83. Thanks, P.Y.

This sentence of Ensor comes very early in the transcript.

The conclusion is, that the scene in the firehouse takes place at 9:31/32, and that the clock is not a "mercutio" clock, i.e, it is on time (+-half a minute).

So the pentagon fire was definitely reported at 9:31 EDT in the news.

I think this to find out was also k-robjoes intention.

[reorg]

86. Naudet video no proof

The video sequence in question is a collage of soundtracks only part of which are synchronous with the camera shots.

This may seem a bit confusing, but is in line with the style of this entire documentary which tries to convey and evoke emotions rather than meticulously "document" what is happening.


Before the scene in the firehouse (in my copy at 37 min 24 seconds into the video):

Scene outside on the street, people apparently watching the towers.

Sound: (Announcer) "We now have reports of a fire at the pentagon, fire at the pentagon being reported this morning" (this is not in any of the quoted CNN scripts)

Cut


37:30

Scene inside the firehouse, clock showing 9:30:06, tv on with towers and smoke in the middle of the screen, from a distance. When the clock arrives at 9:30:10, the tv image blends into a closer view of the towers.

A split second thereafter is a cut, we now see Tony on the left, tv and clock on upper right, the tv showing yet another, closer view of the towers.

Sound: "I was just saying that officials are calling this an act of terrorism. They're saying clearly that is what it is. Clearly not an accident." (CNN Transcript from 9:31)

There is no reason to assume that sound and images before the cut are not synchronous, although we cannot be sure. The cut seems to skip some time, if we take the very quick second zoom change on the tv screen as an indication. This is not reflected in the soundtrack, however.


37:37

Voiceover (Gedeon): "Arriving back at the firehouse and Tony's still alone and he has no clue of what to do."

Scene same as before, on tv partial, zoomed in shot of towers, clock at around 9:31.

Cut


37:45

Camera zoomed in again, shows tv on the left, with the towers and smoke from a distance; clock at the right, showing 9:30:06 again!

This is actually the SAME shot as shown at 37:30 into the documentary.

However, this time with a different soundtrack:

"The plume of smoke is enormous, it's a couple of hundreds yards across at its base." (CNN Transcript 9.42)

Tony Benatatos: “The Pentagon, the Pentagon is on fucking fire. War, this is war.”

When the clock shows 9:30:10, you will see the same zoom change on the tv screen as before (at 37:36 min into the video).

This time, the video camera zooms slowly out, focuses on Tony, finally cuts to close-up of his face.


Summary:

While it may be reasonable to assume that the part of the CNN report documented in the first script (9.31) is shown in real time, synchronously with the time on the clock, the part of the second report (9.42, "... plumes ...") and Tony's reaction (of which we do not see the corresponding image, we only hear his voice) are cut asynchronously into a collage of images and sound that does not reflect a real time scene.

[k-robjoe]

88. yes

That´s how it would seem. But if reorg is right, we don´t have the "nail-down" yet.

But I noted the part about this being announced, before the the clips in the firehouse :

"Sound: (Announcer) "We now have reports of a fire at the pentagon, fire at the pentagon being reported this morning" (this is not in any of the quoted CNN scripts)"