Regarding JFK Assassination—Who do You Trust: Poppy Bush or Your Own Eyes?

[Octafish]

At a memorial service for former President Gerald Ford, former President George Herbert Walker Bush asked us to dismiss "conspiracy theorists" and go with the Warren Commission Report as final word on the assassination.

George H.W. Bush’s Eulogy for Gerald R. Ford

The New York Times
Published: January 2, 2007

EXCERPT…

“After a deluded gunman assassinated President Kennedy (Bush laughed!), our nation turned to Gerald Ford and a select handful of others to make sense of that madness. And the conspiracy theorists can say what they will, but the Warren Commission report will always have the final definitive say on this tragic matter. Why? Because Jerry Ford put his name on it and Jerry Ford’s word was always good.

“A decade later, when scandal forced a vice president from office, President Nixon turned to the minority leader in the House to stabilize his administration because of Jerry Ford’s sterling reputation for integrity within the Congress. To political ally and adversary alike, Jerry Ford’s word was always good.”

CONTINUED...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/washington/02cnd-ford-ghwb.html?ei=5070&en=a9cf834723455ccf&ex=1169614800&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1169442277-BB/tszNk9YVyLGn6D6jo8g

No conspiracy, huh? So why, on November 22, 1963, were the Secret Service Agents charged with protecting President Kennedy’s back ordered off the bumper of his car? Unbelievable, but true. Check out Secret Service Agent Henry J. Rybka’s body language, who’s just been ORDERED off the car.



You can see a bit of the movie here, the circle is around the head of Secret Service Agent Emory P. Roberts, who ordered Rybka and another SS agent off the back of President Kennedy's limousine:



For details, please read Vince Palamara and JFK Lancer’s excellent work:

Agents Go On Record:

JFK DID NOT ORDER SECRET SERVICE OFF DALLAS LIMOUSINE

KENNEDY NEVER ORDERED SECURITY STAND-DOWN OR BUBBLE-TOP REMOVAL

PRESIDENTIAL SECURITY MYSTERIOUSLY "STRIPPED" AND OTHERWISE
COMPROMISED FOR FATAL MOTORCADE

SECRET SERVICE IGNORING OF ADVANCE WARNING OF THREATS DOCUMENTED

“HISTORY" CORRECTED 35 YEARS LATER BY PRIMARY SOURCES

by Vincent M. Palamara

EXCERPT…

THE RYBKA TAPE -- An important discovery was made by this correspondent during review of video of the Dallas trip shot by the ABC television affiliate in that city. During the start of the fatal motorcade at Love Field, Secret Service agent Henry J. Rybka begins to jog alongside the presidential limousine. He is immediately called back by his shift leader and commander of the follow-up car detail, Emory P. Roberts.

Rybka's dismay and confusion is made manifest by his unambiguous body language: He throws up his arms several times before, during and after the follow-up car passes him. He was not being allowed to do his job -- and it was not JFK who was ordering the stand-down.

Despite the discovery by this correspondent of three reports to the contrary (two by Roberts) written on November 22, 1963, this newly discovered photographic evidence confirms that frustrated and vocal-in-his-objections Rybka did not enter the follow-up car and was left behind at the airport.

CONTINUED…

http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/limo.html

Here’s the entire sequence as part of a larger video on the assassination, taken at Love Field, where the motorcade began (please note the exasperated “What gives?” body language):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5770984395481454022&q=John+F

There are no Dallas police officers riding motorcycles on either side of the President’s limousine, they’ve been “ordered” to stay behind the President’s car.



Note There are no Secret Service agents riding along the back (see the handles they were supposed to hold?), nor on side of the limousine, offering protection to the President.



Most all of JFK’s Secret Service detail rides in the follow-up car. All except SSA Rybka, who was left at Love Field. BTW: Official reports of the time falsely indicated Rybka hopped aboard the follow-up car.



Which bullet caused seven major wounds in two men?



Why is the bullet hole in the back of JFK’s jacket, when Congressman Gerald Ford and former CIA director Allen Dulles, on behalf of the Warren Commission, wrote the bullet passed through President Kennedy’s neck?

The above represent solid evidence that authorities in the government of the United States lied about the assassination of the Chief Executive of the United States. They lied about the conspiracy of government officials who covered up the facts of the assassination. They also lied and concealed facts about their own roles in the assassination.

When examined as a whole, the facts are that November 22, 1963 represent a coup d’etat.

So far, it’s been pretty damn successful. Consider Vietnam, Iraq and all the other illegal wars and policies in between— 43 years worth of non-stop Cold War, War on Drugs, Waqr on Terror. Etc, etc.

That’s why I write:

The assassination of President Kennedy is NOT Ancient History.
Its reverberations and affects are felt today.
It’s why our nation has been at war almost constantly since that horrible day.
It’s why the Cold War almost busted the bank.
It’s why the nation’s Treasury is empty for social programs like Good Jobs, Public Health, Public Education and Public Welfare.
It’s why the War on Terror will use up whatever money we have.

It’s why the Bushes are allowed into the Oval Office and Albert Gore and John F. Kerry are not.

It’s why the Bushes and their cronies hide their Secret History.

Like their connections to CIA.
Like their connections to Big Oil Middle East Petrodollars.
Like their connections to Wall Street.
Like their connections to the MI-Complex
Like their connections to the Mafia.
Like their connections to Mao.
Like their connections to NAZIs.
Like their connections to Hitler.
Like their connections to Stalin.
Like their connections to the War Party.

That makes them public stooges for the Secret Government.

The nation has not been the same since that awful day in 1963.
It was a better place and a better time: One where everyone was valued and everything was possible, from walking on the moon to peace in our day.

So, that’s why I give a damn.
That’s why I think we all should care.
And that’s why I won’t let go.

[rwenos]

1. From the Right, From the Front

Anybody who sees the Zapruder film knows the Warren Report is bullshit. JFK's head explodes backwards, in response to a shot from JFK's oblique right, about 45 degrees off the path of the limo.

From the grassy knoll.

Duh.

[Octafish]

7. Agree about Newtonian physics...

...Objects struck by a large force do not move toward what struck them.

Unfortunately, what really happened in Dealey Plaza is unknown to he average American.

Even worse, they don't know how the consequences of that tragic day have stunted what America and the world could have become.

[rwenos]

12. Connecting the Dots

I'd be curious about your thoughts about WHY people are so hesitant to connect the dots. My wife always says it's fear -- if what seems so obviously to be true, IS true -- then what kind of fascist country are we living in?

All dictatorship begins with illusion.

[Octafish]

86. Mrs. rwenos is correct. Here are two very scary dots for Poppy...

People aren't dumb. They see what happens to those who stick their heads up from the trough.



Russian proverb: "The tallest blade of grass is the first to be mown."

About those dots:

FBI Memos show Poppy played a role in Dallas.

Here’s where it gets absolutely creepy. The historical record shows Poppy Bush was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. Here are official FBI memos from within MINUTES of the assassination chronicle what “George H.W. Bush, President of Zapata Off-Shore Drilling Company” called the FBI to report “hearsay” that someone wanted to kill President Kennedy. The problem was, Bush reported his suspicions just minutes after JFK was dead. Why didn’t Bush say something sooner?

In the second memo, a “Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency” reports that the anti-Castro (and largely anti-JFK) Cuban exile community in Miami say the assassination represents a “great loss” to the US and Latin America. The pro-Castro community, Bush apparently, says they “regret” the assassination.

Now I don't know if Poppy was a trigger man or only there to watch what happened or what. He's never explained these memos. He's never even admitted where he was the day JFK was killed. The FBI says Bush Sr was in Dallas. Seeing how his dim son is destroying the planet, it's vitally important that he tell the Truth. Why? The United States and the world haven't been the same since November 22, 1963. And not a single major player in the nation's mass media have stepped up and demanded a real investigation. So, it's up to us.





Here are the memos, without all the tags and mimeograph blots:

TO: SAC, HOUSTON DATE: 11-22-63

FROM: SA GRAHAM W. KITCHEL

SUBJECT: UNKNOWN SUBJECT;
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT
JOHN F. KENNEDY

At 1:45 p.m. Mr. GEORGE H. W. BUSH, President of the Zapata Off-Shore Drilling Company, Houston, Texas, residence 5525 Briar, Houston, telephonically furnished the following information to writer by long distance telephone call from Tyler, Texas.

BUSH stated that he wanted to be kept confidential but wanted to furnish hearsay that he recalled hearing in recent weeks, the day and source unknown. He stated that one JAMES PARROTT has been talking of killing the President when he comes to Houston.

BUSH stated that PARROTT is possibly a student at the University of Houston and is active in political matters in this area. He stated that he felt Mrs. FAWLEY, telephone number SU 2-5239, or ARLINE SMITH, telephone number JA 9-9194 of the Harris County Republican Party Headquarters would be able to furnish additional information regarding the identity of PARROTT.

BUSH stated that he was proceeding to Dallas, Texas, would remain in the Sheraton-Dallas Hotel and return to his residence on 11-23-63. His office telephone number is CA 2-0395.

# # #

Less than a week after the assassination, J Edgar See No Mafia Hoover details his discussions with Mr. Bush...

Date: November 29, 1963

To: Director
Bureau of Intelligence and Research
Department of State

From: John Edgar Hoover, Director

Subject: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
NOVEMBER 22, 1963

Our Miami, Florida, Office on November 23, 1963, advised that the Office of Coordinator of Cuban Affairs in Miami advised that the Department of State feels some misguided anti-Castro group might capitalize on the present situation and undertake an unauthorized raid against Cuba, believing that the assassination of President John F. Kennedy might herald a change in U. S. policy, which is not true.

Our sources and informants familiar with Cuban matters in the Miami area advise that the general feeling in the anti-Castro Cuban community is one of stunned disbelief and, even among those who did not entirely agree with the President's policy concerning Cuba, the feeling is that the President's death represents a great loss not only to the U. S. but to all of Latin America. These sources know of no plans for unauthorized action against Cuba.

An informant who has furnished reliable information in the past and who is close to a small pro-Castro group in Miami has advised that these individuals are afraid that the assassination of the President may result in strong repressive measures being taken against them and, although pro-Castro in their feelings, regret the assassination.

The substance of the foregoing information was orally furnished to Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency and Captain William Edwards of the Defense Intelligence Agency on November 23, 1963, by Mr. W. T. Forsyth of this Bureau.

# # #

The information above connects George CIA Bush with the assassination. It helps explain a LOT of what’s gone wrong in America since that day to the present. So, to help prevent the outbreak of World War IV or whatever it is his dim son is working on, we need to spread this information far and wide. Our world's future, and our individual lives and liberty, depend on it. Of course, if we don't get the truth out, things will continue to get worse.

Thanks for giving a damn, Mr. and Mrs. and all you rwenos!

[Leopolds Ghost]

102. I'm having a hard time believing Bush I was involved

Beyond happening to work for the CIA at the time as an heir to the Prescott Bush political/military dynasty, with their interests in the Cuban exile population, grooming them for purposes unknown.

(Assassinations, future drug running etc. Why is it that Miami is the financial capital of Latin America and all the drug lords own crash pads there?)

HOWEVER, On reading Bush's actual memo it sounds like Bush didn't expect these forces to be used to catapult anyone into power internally.

I have no problem believing he heard this guy say he wanted to kill JFK.

The fact is, lots of people in Texas, Louisiana and the Deep South wanted to kill JFK. Did you know certain dorms in colleges down there actually celebrated his death?

People told JFK not to go down south or he'd be shot -- it was common knowledge that much of thw white male population was spouting off about how they "wish they'd did it".

[jberryhill]

53. When the striking object...

...moves through the struck object, and blows junks of matter out of the other side then, yeah, the object moves back toward the direction it was hit from.

Do us a favor and go shoot some watermelons and report back on which way they went. I believe the answer will surprise you.



So, even though you can see the ejecta being blown out of his head in the forward direction, you believe that tissue matter from a bullet entering the front of the head will blow ejecta back toward the shooter?

That explosion of the head is the bullet *leaving* the front of his head, blowing ejecta out of the exit.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/Scientific_topics/Physics_of_head_shot/4-Wound_ballistics.html
This second phase of the collision imparts a second movement to the head. If fragments are ejected in a preferential direction, they will cause the head to recoil in the opposite direction.

That monograph of the physics of headshots is pretty thorough.

[vincent_vega_lives]

72. The human body is not a solid object

High velocity projectiles cause somthing called hydrostatic shock when they pass though a medium like soft tissue.

[Marksbrother]

197. Mannlicher-Carcano bullets are NOT high velocity projectiles

The Italian-made M.C. rifle is NOT a high-powered rifle and anyone who wants to know some facts about that particular weapon

should read this. After doing so, if you think you can refute it with facts, be my guest. Here's the link:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/06618c0d8b70f6f9

[SDuderstadt]

205. Referring to a post in a discussion group...

that references Mark Lane isn't all that convincing, dude. Sorry.

P.S. Do you read ANYTHING other than CT literature? Anything at all?

[dsa]

108. You have a poor understanding of physics

Kennedy's motion was dictated by muscular reflexes. Look at the video and photo evidence. It clearly shows the front right temple of his head opening up after he was shot--exactly as an exit would would do. He was shot from behind, plain and simple.

[zzcat]

117. CAD Precision Mapping of 1st Bullet

YouTuber BobHarris77 traced the trajectory of the 1st bullet to hit jfk by loading the HSCA Surveyer's Diagram into a CAD program. The trajectory points back to 3rd flr of Daltex bldg, where professional criminal Jim Braden was apprehended that day.

Night before, Braden stayed at nearby Mafia owned Cabana Hotel. Jack Ruby was at that hotel then meeting w/a Chicago goon, whom HSCA investigators found had gotten a call, shortly before the attack, from a longtime suspect who'd worked on the same floor of a Mafia owned bldg as Braden.

Could be Oswald was lured to the TSBD to hit Connally, which he may have been willing to do since Connally had signed his dishonorable discharge papers, in order to make Oswald the patsy for the jfk hit. The angle of Connally's wound seems to better match the TSBD.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eGupSng-Po&feature=channel_page

[Wizard777]

13. From the front .......

seat of the limo. Kennedy was killed by SS Agent Greer who was driving the Limo. It was an inside job all the way.

[MagickMuffin]

2. Dear Octafish

Please never give up. I value your information and passion above all else on this topic.

You have offered so much in this black stain on our history. I have researched the Bush Regime/Cartel/Cabal for years and it's simply amazing that most people don't know what the hell is going on within their own government.

But hey there are sports to take our minds off of stuff like how our government works and which government has the most control. Of course we know which government welds the power. I have never believed for one minute that Poppy was CIA from the get go. And I think someone just released some government documents stating that he was in fact employed by the CIA in the late sixties. Also mentioned how his petro company was a front for the CIA.

We could go on and on and on and on....
Keep up the great work and I'll keep saving my links from your threads.

[Octafish]

14. Bush Senior Early CIA Ties Revealed

The newly found documents show that Bush the Oilman was in Vietnam on CIA business, just before the doors fell off in the Tet Offensive.

Odd how the oil business is so...so...strategic!

Bush Senior Early CIA Ties Revealed

By Russ Baker and Jonathan Z. Larsen
The Real News Project January 8, 2007

NEW YORK--Newly released internal CIA documents assert that former president George Herbert Walker Bush's oil company emerged from a 1950's collaboration with a covert CIA officer.

Bush has long denied allegations that he had connections to the intelligence community prior to 1976, when he became Central Intelligence Agency director under President Gerald Ford. At the time, he described his appointment as a 'real shocker.'

But the freshly uncovered memos contend that Bush maintained a close personal and business relationship for decades with a CIA staff employee who, according to those CIA documents, was instrumental in the establishment of Bush's oil venture, Zapata, in the early 1950s, and who would later accompany Bush to Vietnam as a “cleared and witting commercial asset” of the agency.

According to a CIA internal memo dated November 29, 1975, Bush's original oil company, Zapata Petroleum, began in 1953 through joint efforts with Thomas J. Devine, a CIA staffer who had resigned his agency position that same year to go into private business. The '75 memo describes Devine as an “oil wild-catting associate of Mr. Bush.” The memo is attached to an earlier memo written in 1968, which lays out how Devine resumed work for the secret agency under commercial cover beginning in 1963.

“Their joint activities culminated in the establishment of Zapata Oil,” the memo reads. In fact, early Zapata corporate filings do not seem to reflect Devine's role in the company, suggesting that it may have been covert. Yet other documents do show Thomas Devine on the board of an affiliated Bush company, Zapata Offshore, in January, 1965, more than a year after he had resumed work for the spy agency.

CONTINUED...

http://realnews.org/rn/content/zapata.html

And so it's no wonder Poppy was so hard on people exposing the identities of CIA Non-Official Cover types.

It might even cost him big bucks, along with the lives of a bunch of cannon fodder types.

Thank you for caring, MagickMuffin!

[MagickMuffin]

18. Yes yes yes

I was just about to post the link you just posted for me. I don't always bookmark or save my research at the time I discover something new. But I try to find the time to back track through my browser history and find what I need or a plain ole google search.

I'm almost certain the reason Little Mad king Boy George wants his LIEberry at SMU in Dallas is to be able to control the history of his Dynasty (they hate the term dynasty, they prefer legacy, since they hate dynasty that's what I prefer :evilgrin:) to fabricate history, to scrub, scrub, scrub. Just like they have been doing since they overthrew our government way back when both of Poppy's granpappy's were starting out in the military industrial complex. To the current pResident, who had his records scrubbed by Joe Allbaugh. I would almost wager they already have their scrubbers hired and ready to scrub, scrub, scrub.

And you know they will rewrite history to make them appear as some sort of caring family who brought democracy to all the countries all over the world.
Never mind that whenever they are in power they loot our treasury for their own personal riches.

It drives me crazy that since there are so few people who are concerned about our current history, that we continue to see the same ol' crooks over and over again within our government. That would not happen if we knew what the hell is going on in this country. That's one of the reasons I get frustrated with the democratic party, they continue with this same dangerous policy. It makes me always wonder what kind of poop the secret government has on these people that they would continue to confirm the same criminals who were pardoned for their crimes. Makes no Sense to me.....

The Beat Goes On.....
CHORUS:
The beat goes on, the beat goes on
Drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
La de da de de, la de da de da

Charleston was once the rage, uh huh
History has turned the page, uh huh
The mini skirts the current thing, uh huh
Teenybopper is our newborn king, uh huh

Chorus
The beat goes on, the beat goes on
Drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
La de da de de, la de da de da

The grocery store's the super mart, uh huh
Little girls still break their hearts, uh huh
And men still keep on marching off to war
Electrically they keep a baseball score

Chorus
The beat goes on, the beat goes on
Drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
La de da de de, la de da de da

Grandmas sit in chairs and reminisce
Boys keep chasing girls to get a kiss
The cars keep going faster all the time
Bums still cry "hey buddy, have you got a dime"

Chorus
The beat goes on, the beat goes on
Drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
La de da de de, la de da de da

I don't know what made me think of this song:shrug:

Where did this topic end up, was about to post but couldn't because it was locked in GD, so where did it go too?

Edit to say never mind on new location, figured it out for myself.

[EVDebs]

3. Thanks, Octafish. You've been faithful over a little....

and TGAOTU will see to it that this country returns to its original values with your help. Liberty, Equality, Fraternity ! When the Freemasonic ideals, from the first three degrees, which is what our Founding Fathers fought for, again become something people will fight for even in the halls of Congress we may all be able to breathe a little easier. I understand many fear the Freemasons but their original revolutionary-ness has been attenuated during this past 100 or so years. A shame.

[Octafish]

82. Thank you, EVDebs. We all are indeed fortunate to be.

I thank the Great Spirit every day -- and not as much as I should.

The enlightened man knows he is blessed.

Thanks for the kind reminder, my Friend!

[fooj]

4. Poppy is the cancer.

[rwenos]

8. He Kinda Dropped His Guard

with that reference at President Ford's funeral to the Warren Report, eh?

God, the sludge is leaking out around the seals, isn't it?

[dflprincess]

176. I seem to recall he was due to have a hip replacement the day or so after the funeral

it was probably pain meds talking. Poppy was about the only one who mentioned Ford's involvement with the Warren Commission in the days after Ford's death.

[Octafish]

157. Video -- Poppy Bush laughing when he says 'after a deluded gunman assassinated President Kennedy.'

See for yourself at the :58 second mark:

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=111130&catId=104

[SDuderstadt]

158. Dude...that's far from a "laugh"....

your claim is bullshit.

[Octafish]

161. Put it up for a vote.

Cram it with the "bullshit," dude. I think it is a laugh.

[SDuderstadt]

163. It IS bullshit...

It's clear that he's not laughing. You can conflate it all you want, but you're blowing this up out of proportion.

[Octafish]

184. No, you’re wrong. Poppy’s private contact info was in de Mohrenschildt’s address book.

For those new to the subject, George de Mohrenschildt was Oswald’s “handler.”

That establishes one-degree of separation with the accused assassin and Poppy.

From the Education Forum:

On 5th September, 1976, George de Mohrenschildt wrote the following letter to George H. W. Bush, Director of Central Intelligence:

Dear George,

You will excuse this hand-written letter. Maybe you will be able to bring a solution to the hopeless situation I find myself in.

My wife and I find ourselves surrounded by some vigilantes; our phone bugged; and we are being followed everywhere. Either FBI is involved in this or they do not want to accept my complaints. We are driven to insanity by the situation.

I have been behaving like a damn fool ever since my daughter Nadya died from (cystic fibrosis) over three years ago. I tried to write, stupidly and unsuccessfully, about Lee H Oswald and must have angered a lot of people I do not know. But to punish an elderly man like myself and my highly nervous and sick wife is really too much.

Could you do something to remove the net around us? This will be my last request for help and I will not annoy you any more.

Good luck in your important job.

Thank you so much.

George de Mohrenschildt

==========================================================

Poppy replied:

==========================================================

I do know this man DeMohrenschildt.

I first met him in the early 40s. He was an uncle to my Andover roommate.

Later he surfaced in Dallas (50's maybe).

He got involved in some controversial dealings in Haiti.

Then he surfaced when Oswald shot to prominence. He knew Oswald before the assassination of President Kennedy.

I don't recall his role in all this.

At one time he had/or spent plenty of money.

I have not heard from him for many years until the attached letter came in.

==========================================================

SOURCE w/links and details

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13941

“Plausible Deniability” might work on you, but it doesn’t on me.

[SDuderstadt]

208. This is hysterical...

the provider of this supposed internal memo provides absolutely NO proof that it is, indeed, a memo from Bush. We're apparently being asked to take his word for it. That might be sufficient for JFK conspiracy buffs, but not for me. Do you guys know or even care about standards of evidence?

[Octafish]

212. Nothing funny about treason. My source of Bush-de Mohrenschildt connection is National Archives.

Here are links to some of the documents, hosted by MaryFerrell.org, copied from Uncle Sam's originals:

"Do you know this individual?" "Yes."

&rotatation=default&actualWidth=12250&orientation=portrait

"Dear George..."

&rotatation=default&actualWidth=12250&orientation=portrait

Get the story, scroll down at the SOURCE: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=5761

[Marksbrother]

186. Yep, looks like Poppy gets in a little laugh/Bush smirk

Some people here may not know that Poppy's father's business was shut down by the Government during WW2 for violating the
"Trading With The Enemy Act". The particular enemy in that instance was located in Germany. Fine family. Real patriots.

[Octafish]

188. CIA incorporated Wall Street swells and NAZI bigwigs...

...much to our nation's detriment. It's a very sick and sordid tale.

Know your BFEE: Spawn of Wall Street and the Third Reich

Know your BFEE: Nazis couldn’t win WWII, so they backed Bushes.

Know your BFEE: Reinhard Gehlen

Know your BFEE: Eugenics and the NAZIs - The California Connection

Vietnam and Iraq Wars Started by Same People

Most of the responses in the above are pure gold.

[dbonds]

210. I would call that a micro-expression, expressing glee or happiness.

[Octafish]

244. Here's the moment, from a screen shot.

"After a deluded gunman assassinated President Kennedy..."



There's nothing funny about November 22, 1963.
Both our country and planet have since then
been on what's pretty much straight course for hell.

Thanks for the heads-up on microexpressions, dbonds.
One can learn a lot by reading. Faces, too.

[cherokeeprogressive]

216. Looks a lot like a non-laugh to me.

I think he was inhaling. I've seen him make expressions like that before, and they weren't laughs.

[EFerrari]

5. Bobby. Martin. All of them.

I won't let go with you.

[Octafish]

88. They can't kill an idea.

Even though bullets ended their lives, what Bobby, Martin, John and so many others lived for lives on.

And they can't kill what we're about, either.



And they can't hurt us because we are all together.

Besides: The Army, police and all good people in government know that Bush administration is one enormous transnational criminal enterprise.

If they didn't, Smirko McCokespoon and Sneering Dick Duckseason would've nuked Iran by now.

[bleever]

6. Hang on tight.

Don't let go.

[Octafish]

90. Thanks, bleever. We got 'em where we want 'em.

And they know we know what their game is:

“I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves.” -- Dr. Henry Kissinger, Warmonger to the Stars

Poppy, my friend Wayne told me, is disturbed at the amount of information on the internets regarding his presence in Dallas on November 22, 1963.

Thanks, bleever. We are not going to forget: The death of one human being in 1963 has led to the deaths of uncounted millions since and hundreds of thousands today.

Remember Danny Casolaro. He called them, "The Octopus," that whole CIA NAZI Mafia Wall Street Big Oil KKK Eugenics crowd.

They can't beat We the People.

[illinoisprogressive]

9. I don't believe in conspiracy theories.

[rwenos]

10. So You've Opted for the Cultural Trance? nt

[bobthedrummer]

15. I don't believe in the coincidence theories used as cover and deception

in COUPS and CRIMINAL CONSPIRACIES either.

[John Q. Citizen]

19. I'm with you. Two guys never rob a bank together. It's physically impossible. And there is

never a getaway driver because that would be ridicules.

Bonny and Clyde was a fairy tale.

The James gang was just one person pretending to be more people.

I'm with you. Conspiracies never occur.

J. Edgar Hoover had it right. The mafia doesn't exist, because there is no such thing as organized crime!

And the Crypts and the Bloods are some sick fantasy of people trying to understand a complicated world.

[rman]

31. Does that mean you believe conspiracies don't exist,

or that conspiracies do exist, but that there's not point in theorizing/hypothesizing about conspiracies?

Perhaps you don't realize that legal investigators routinely theorize about conspiracies, and that they turn out to be correct quite regularly. With just about every other crime that involves more than one perpetrator the indictment includes conspiracy.


Just one of the recent famous examples:

DeLay Indicted in Texas Finance Probe
He Steps Aside as House GOP Leader to Fight Conspiracy Charge in State Elections

By R. Jeffrey Smith
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 29, 2005; Page A01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/28/AR2005092800270.html

A Texas grand jury indicted House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) yesterday on a charge of criminally conspiring with two political associates to inject illegal corporate contributions into 2002 state elections that helped the Republican Party reorder the congressional map in Texas and cement its control of the House in Washington.
...

[vincent_vega_lives]

73. I don't believe in THESE conspiracy theories

The JFK Assassination
Area 51
The Moon Landing Hoax
9-11-01 MIHOP/LIHOP

Mainly because all the CRAP touted as scientific evidence is just that...CRAP, originating from ignorance rather than educated analysis.

[Octafish]

87. Good on you. You know who else believes in conspiracies?

"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, it was planned that way."

-- Franklin D. Roosevelt, one of my favorite Democrats. Ever.

[Virginia Dare]

107. Everything that happens the the world is connected..

every war, every famine, every election, every social uprising, you name it, nothing happens in a vacuum.

[bobthedrummer]

11. Like their connections to Osama bin Laden, Pakistan, the Taliban

Afghanistan, etc.-fwiw before this thread possibly ends up elsewhere here's another solid link in the chronology of CONSPIRACY, BETRAYAL and TREASON.

All the usual suspects are there-just like they were in Dallas.

"Pakistan nuclear kidnap foiled" 1-15-2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2689760

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Why was this moved to the 9/11 forum?

I thought JFK was killed on 11/22. :)

[bobthedrummer]

17. Because the Internet and political websites are battlegrounds

where information warfare are conducted by those that seek the truth and share it and those that want it supressed and eliminated.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Good answer!

[bobthedrummer]

29. That was acknowledged by the Pentagon well over a year ago

when one of then war criminal/profiteer traitor SecDef Rumsfeld's staff made a statement that inexplicably confirmed that psychological operations targeting foreign populations had "migrated" here.

Strategic PSY-OPS aim to break and replace the belief system(s) of the target. To this Christian the most obvious one is the perception management program focused on religious beliefs from the RW's Holy Warriors. Especially when any person considers that Lt. Col. Michael Aquino and his camp's influence shaped so much of today's PSY-OPS (another E in the BFEE).

Here are several background links on that subject.

"National Prayer Breakfast Masks Nazi and Fascist Roots" by Wayne Madsen May 2005
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/scoops/christian_mafia.php

"Ten Things I Learned From The Pentagon's Prayer Team" by Jeff Sharlet January 2007
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/46262/

"America's Holy Warriors" by Chris Hedges
http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/views06/0103-59.htm

[seemslikeadream]

59. Thanks for those links my friend

[bobthedrummer]

65. You're welcome my dreamy friend, and spread them around. n/t

[pberq]

97. Some important information in those links. Thank you

[Leopolds Ghost]

101. Speaking of psy-ops, why is it that certain DUers always migrate to challenge CT threads

Even after they're consigned to the dungeon, they stay on the thread attempting to dissuade people from taking the original poster seriously?

I could be wrong.

[SDuderstadt]

113. I've got an idea....

because the OP is stupid?

[SDuderstadt]

224. Because the OP is goofy?

Just a thought....

[Twist_U_Up]

48. No doubt.... yes even here. n/t

[blm]

96. EXACTLY, bob.

And man, do the open government advocates get more crap thrown on us than just about any other wing of the Dem party.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

21. Ditto: HUH???

Dont tell me JFK assassination threads are all doomed to this dungeon now.

[Bolo Boffin]

22. Because this is where all alternative theories are properly discussed.

Instead of spamming the boards with JFK CT, come here. This has become the default place to discuss all of this type of stuff - fake moon landing, etc. It will fit in nicely with the no plane, nukes-used-on-tower bullcrap we deal with daily down here.

[Octafish]

25. Since when is the Amazing Randi a legitimate source?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=65656

That IS you, right?

BTW: What part of what I wrote is ''Theory''?

[Bolo Boffin]

37. I didn't use James Randi as a source in that post.

I did post in that thread you posted, under the clever disguise of "boloboffin." I'm stunned that you could figure that out on your own.

What part of what you wrote is CT? Well, for one thing, the bullet that injured two men that day was this one:

[Octafish]

45. Sorry. We can't ALL be geniuses.

Perhaps one day, even I will be able to enjoy a battle of wits with someone as knowledgable as you.

Using the photo of the rear of a fired bullet in your disingenuous way may be convincing for those who want to know only part of the story.

Here's the same, relatively pristine, bullet from the side:



Those interested in learning the whole story can read here:

Ten Reasons I Reject the Single-Bullet Theory

Michael T. Griffith,

EXCERPT...

7. It is extremely unlikely that CE 399 could have emerged in nearly pristine condition after doing the damage attributed to it. In the WC's wound ballistics tests, bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged in the same condition as CE 399. One such test bullet actually suffered MORE damage than CE 399. The bullets that were fired into animal chests and that struck rib bone emerged noticeably more deformed than CE 399. The bullets that were fired into the wrists of human cadavers emerged with significant damage to their noses. In the 1992 All-American Television wound ballistics test, conducted in consultation with forensic expert Dr. Cyril Wecht, the test bullet emerged markedly deformed.

CONTINUED...

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/issues_and_evidence/single-bullet_theory/Ten_reasons.html

PS: Yeah. That was a good catch on you and Amazing Randi. An actor friend in Dallas tells me he's a great role model for youth.

[Bolo Boffin]

46. My picture was disingenuous? How falsely stated by you.

It's your continued posting of pictures that show the damaged bullet in its best light that's disingenuous. My picture is posted in the context of yours - it's important to see all sides of the bullet in question, not just the ones that let you try to claim it is "relatively pristine."

And as greyl pointed out below...

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100sbt.html

The reader is urged to consult the evidence and formulate an independent conclusion based on all the facts.

Not just the ones in your selective presentation, Octafish.

[Octafish]

47. You can agree with J Edgar Hoover, Allen Dulles, Arlen Specter and whoever else you want to...

...You're entitled to it.

I also am entitled to disagree with you and those un-American turds.



One point of disagreement is that I believe that a conspiracy killed President Kennedy.

Unlike Hoover, Dulles, Specter and their supporters, I want the truth about the assassination made public.

It's the least I could do for a fellow Democrat, citizen, and human being.

The Truth about Arlen Specter

Here's LBJ talking with Hoover a week after JFK died. They talk about three bullets 'n' such:

ftp://webstorage2.mcpa.virginia.edu/library/nara/lbj/audiovisual/whrecordings/telephone/conversations/1963/lbj_k6311_04_15_hoover.mp3

http://www.geocities.com/justicewell/specter.htm

Lots o' links, there, too.



Vietnam war made a lot of money for America's warmongers.

[Bolo Boffin]

49. What a heinous and slanted selection you made. I also agree with Edward Kennedy.

A fellow Democrat and all.

[John Q. Citizen]

69. So you disagree with the Democratically chaired House Select Committie

On Assassinations?

I don't. I think they got it right when they found that Kennedy was most likely the victim of a conspiracy.

[Bolo Boffin]

70. The Dictabelt has been debunked.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/odell/

That's the basis of the House Committee finding. It's false.

Next!

[John Q. Citizen]

71. Oh, I'm certain that wasn't the only reason they suspect a conspiracy. Also

Who is this Odell guy? Was his paper peer reviewed? Was it published in a reputable journal? Does O'dell have any training or background in what his paper is about?

The article that was peer reviewed and published in Science and Justice, a quarterly publication of Britain's Forensic Science Society found that there was a fourth shot. Can O'dell claim the same level of credibility?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A56560-2001Mar25?language=printer

By George Lardner Jr.
Washington Post Staff Writer


Monday, March 26, 2001; Page A03

The House Assassinations Committee may have been right after all: There was a shot from the grassy knoll.

That was the key finding of the congressional investigation that concluded 22 years ago that President John F. Kennedy's murder in Dallas in 1963 was "probably . . . the result of a conspiracy." A shot from the grassy knoll meant that two gunmen must have fired at the president within a split-second sequence. Lee Harvey Oswald, accused of firing three shots at Kennedy from a perch at the Texas School Book Depository, could not have been in two places at once.

In fact, the author of the article, D.B. Thomas, a government scientist and JFK assassination researcher, said it was more than 96 percent certain that there was a shot from the grassy knoll to the right of the president's limousine, in addition to the three shots from a book depository window above and behind the president's limousine.

G. Robert Blakey, former chief counsel to the House Assassinations Committee, said the NAS panel's study always bothered him because it dismissed all four putative shots as random noise -- even though the three soundbursts from the book depository matched up precisely with film of the assassination and other evidence such as the echo patterns in Dealey Plaza and the speed of Kennedy's motorcade.

"This is an honest, careful scientific examination of everything we did, with all the appropriate statistical checks," Blakey said of Thomas's work

Also, there has been NEW evidence found since the House Special Committee on Assassinations completed their work. For instance, the CIA finally found this tape which proves that somebody called up and impersonated Oswald just prior to the assassination. If no one else were involved, why would someone else be involved?

Tape: Call on JFK Wasn't Oswald

.c The Associated Press
http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/LHO-Mexi.html

By DEB RIECHMANN

Sunday, Nov 21, 1999

WASHINGTON (AP) - Hours after President Kennedy was assassinated, FBI agents reportedly listened to a tape of a phone call that a man identifying himself as ``Lee Oswald'' had placed to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City.

They made a startling discovery: The voice on the tape was not Oswald's, government records say.

This controversial tape has been a question mark in the assassination investigation since Kennedy was killed Nov. 22, 1963. Only now - 36 years to the day after the murder - has the government released a flurry of new details about it.

The CIA said years ago that the tapes on which it recorded the call were erased. Documents released in recent years said otherwise. The latest and newest of declassified documents offer more evidence that the tapes survived.

The discovery that the voice on the tape was someone other than Oswald was a ``disquieting discovery because the man who impersonated Oswald was still at large,'' said John Newman, an ex-military intelligence analyst, author and professor at the University of Maryland. more....

Lone Gunman? NOT!

The other NEW evidence to emerge was done by scientists at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory. It completely refutes the under pinnings of the magic bullet theory.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/15321194.htm
Challenge to lone gunman theory
By Betsy Mason
CONTRA COSTA TIMES
LIVERMORE - More than four decades after his death, John F. Kennedy's assassination remains the hottest cold case in U.S. history, and the clues continue to trickle in. Now Lawrence Livermore Laboratory scientists say a key piece of evidence supporting the lone gunman theory should be thrown out.

A new look at clues gleaned from studies of crime-scene bullet fragments shows they may have been misinterpreted.

"It basically shatters what some people call the best physical evidence around," said chemist Pat Grant, director of the lab's Forensic Science Center.

Grant and Livermore Lab metallurgist Erik Randich found that the chemical "fingerprints" used to identify which bullets the fragments came from are actually more like run-of-the-mill tire tracks than one-of-a-kind fingerprints.

"I've spoken with people on both sides of the conspiracy divide and there's no question but that (Randich and Grant's) work is going to be very difficult, if not outright impossible, to refute," said Gary Aguilar, a San Francisco ophthalmologist and single-bullet skeptic who has studied the Kennedy assassination for more than a decade. "It looks impregnable." more....

So what are you left with? Not much. You got george hubert walker bush on your side as a cheerleader, though. That's got to count for something.

There was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. The Congress says so, the evidence screams so, and everybody except for you and george know it. (I think he knows it too)

Next!

[vincent_vega_lives]

75. the Thomas study

Here's the original

http://www.forensic-science-society.org.uk/Thomas.pdf


further Thomas article

http://www.forensic-science-society.org.uk/pdf/correspondence1.pdf

a rebuttal

http://www.forensic-science-society.org.uk/pdf/correspondence2.pdf

[John Q. Citizen]

78. Did you see the disclaimer at the bottom of the letter to the editor rebuttal?

DISCLAIMER:
PLEASE NOTE THAT THE VIEWS HELD IN THIS
LETTER ARE THOSE OF THE AUTHOR AND NOT
THOSE OF THE FORENSIC SCIENCE SOCIETY OR
THE EDITOR OF SCIENCE AND JUSTICE.

Do you know if any of the rebuttal work has been peer reviewed and published as peer reviewed work in any journals?

[Bolo Boffin]

79. Pity Kevin Ryan hadn't used such a disclaimer.

Maybe he could still be testing water.

[John Q. Citizen]

80. Are you avoiding the question? Not too rational of you. Or logical. Kind of slippery.

What would JREF say? Or is that how they operate over there also?

[Bolo Boffin]

81. Yeah, like your "peer review" nonsense isn't slippery.

I'm beginning to wonder if you ever actually read Triple Cross.

[John Q. Citizen]

83. I read the Triple Cross Time Line, as stated repeatedly.

Now if you could learn to read my posts, that would already be clear to you.

So you want Jones' stuff peer reviewed, because if it isn't, it's junk, but when you or one of your co- OCTers post non-peer reviewed stuff it's suddenly brilliant work?

I think that's hypocritical.

The Democratically chaired House Special Sub Committee on Assassinations found Kennedy was the victim of a conspiracy. They were right.

Republican hack Gerald Ford, pappa bush, J. Edgar Hoover, and you dispute that finding.

Fine. You guys are certainly entitled to your opinions. But if you want to press your opinions with what you are claiming to be evidence, at least get it peer reviewed and published as peer reviewed science in a reputable journal.

If you expect to be taken seriously, that is.

[AZCat]

84. What exactly are you trying to claim here?

Are you claiming that the posts here need to be peer reviewed in order to be taken seriously?

[Bolo Boffin]

85. Maybe you should read the Book.

It might help correct these excessive opinions of yours.

[John Q. Citizen]

92. I'm not a Christian, but I don't care if you are. n/t

[defendandprotect]

104. The Dictabelt is VALID --

and the rebuttal to it is false --

catch up --

[dsa]

109. No, the dictabelt has been conclusively debunked

The researchers who studied it said it had to be recorded in a particular location to be valid, but subsequent study has confirmed that no recording device was present anywhere near that location. Therefore, the acoustics study is completely invalid.

[defendandprotect]

236. The dictabelt's location is confirmed . . . by the carillon bells playing in

the background in Dealey Plaza.

A nearby bank played these carillon bells every day at the same time --
and they were played that day -- and you can hear them on the dictabelt.

So -- the acoustics information has not only been confirmed but re-confirmed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. The moon landing was faked?

Wow - someone ought to start a thread on that. :evilgrin:

[defendandprotect]

105. Drunken astronauts and real moon landings -- ???

Doubt it --

We haven't been back -- though you can be sure if a ride to the moon was possible, we'd be running an army there with STAR WARS playing night and day --

It's the "highest hill," man . . .

[bobthedrummer]

30. No one made you the Board Nanny here my old buddy-or did they?

Just curious bolo-maybe you should apply to be a mod instead of using the back door approach of innuendo and rhetoric.

Octafish opened the door to a number of valid subjects in this thread- consigned to what you perceive to be the "proper" place to discuss coups, treason, conspiracy, war crimes, war profiteering, and a lot of other things BFEE that have nothing to do with the diversions you mention.

[Bolo Boffin]

38. I don't think they'd let me be a mod here, bob.

I'm likely to be too "controversial."

[seemslikeadream]

54. It seems some people

can only ride on coattails.

[Bolo Boffin]

55. And tuna fish in the morning

finds Shangri-La a lollypop.

[seemslikeadream]

56. You always do have so much to add to the conversation

[Bolo Boffin]

57. That was my way of saying, "Whaaaa?"

I'm glad you approve.

[seemslikeadream]

58. Oh don't worry

I understand the meaning of all your posts

[John Q. Citizen]

20. Bush is right, science is bunk!

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/15321194.htm
Challenge to lone gunman theory
By Betsy Mason
CONTRA COSTA TIMES
LIVERMORE - More than four decades after his death, John F. Kennedy's assassination remains the hottest cold case in U.S. history, and the clues continue to trickle in. Now Lawrence Livermore Laboratory scientists say a key piece of evidence supporting the lone gunman theory should be thrown out.

A new look at clues gleaned from studies of crime-scene bullet fragments shows they may have been misinterpreted.

"It basically shatters what some people call the best physical evidence around," said chemist Pat Grant, director of the lab's Forensic Science Center.

Grant and Livermore Lab metallurgist Erik Randich found that the chemical "fingerprints" used to identify which bullets the fragments came from are actually more like run-of-the-mill tire tracks than one-of-a-kind fingerprints.

"I've spoken with people on both sides of the conspiracy divide and there's no question but that (Randich and Grant's) work is going to be very difficult, if not outright impossible, to refute," said Gary Aguilar, a San Francisco ophthalmologist and single-bullet skeptic who has studied the Kennedy assassination for more than a decade. "It looks impregnable." more....

If Science is so smart, why isn't it President?

Study Backs Theory of 'Grassy Knoll'
New Report Says Second Gunman Fired at Kennedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A56560-2001Mar25?language=printer

By George Lardner Jr.
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, March 26, 2001; Page A03

The House Assassinations Committee may have been right after all: There was a shot from the grassy knoll.

That was the key finding of the congressional investigation that concluded 22 years ago that President John F. Kennedy's murder in Dallas in 1963 was "probably . . . the result of a conspiracy." A shot from the grassy knoll meant that two gunmen must have fired at the president within a split-second sequence. Lee Harvey Oswald, accused of firing three shots at Kennedy from a perch at the Texas School Book Depository, could not have been in two places at once.


The left arrow points to window from which the bullets hit the President. The black arrow shows the position of his car. (UPI File photo)

A special panel of the National Academy of Sciences subsequently disputed the evidence of a fourth shot, contained on a police dictabelt of the sounds in Dealey Plaza that day. The panel insisted it was simply random noise, perhaps static, recorded about a minute after the shooting while Kennedy's motorcade was en route to Parkland Hospital.

A new, peer-reviewed article in Science and Justice, a quarterly publication of Britain's Forensic Science Society, says the NAS panel's study was seriously flawed. It says the panel failed to take into account the words of a Dallas patrolman that show the gunshot-like noises occurred "at the exact instant that John F. Kennedy was assassinated."

In fact, the author of the article, D.B. Thomas, a government scientist and JFK assassination researcher, said it was more than 96 percent certain that there was a shot from the grassy knoll to the right of the president's limousine, in addition to the three shots from a book depository window above and behind the president's limousine. more....

More proof that ghw bush is a truth teller.....

Tape: Call on JFK Wasn't Oswald

.c The Associated Press
http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/LHO-Mexi.html

By DEB RIECHMANN

Sunday, Nov 21, 1999

WASHINGTON (AP) - Hours after President Kennedy was assassinated, FBI agents reportedly listened to a tape of a phone call that a man identifying himself as ``Lee Oswald'' had placed to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City.

They made a startling discovery: The voice on the tape was not Oswald's, government records say.

This controversial tape has been a question mark in the assassination investigation since Kennedy was killed Nov. 22, 1963. Only now - 36 years to the day after the murder - has the government released a flurry of new details about it.

The CIA said years ago that the tapes on which it recorded the call were erased. Documents released in recent years said otherwise. The latest and newest of declassified documents offer more evidence that the tapes survived.

The discovery that the voice on the tape was someone other than Oswald was a ``disquieting discovery because the man who impersonated Oswald was still at large,'' said John Newman, an ex-military intelligence analyst, author and professor at the University of Maryland. more....

[ConsAreLiars]

23. Post again in GD, since obvoously some can't tell the difference between

9/11 and 11/22. Why someone would confuse the two is hard to fathom. Why someone might want to hide this discussion, well, that is a bit easier to understand. No honest motives, that is certain. An irrational determination to believe in and support doctrine, and a willingness to suppress all facts to the contrary.

[John Q. Citizen]

24. We like it here. Come on down, stick around, invite your friends. There are

no teacher/student sex stories, Hillary cheerleaders, or why can't parents keep there kids out of the candy at the supermarket posts to interfere with the important stuff.

Have you voted yet?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=114063&mesg_id=114063

[jberryhill]

52. Voted?

There's an election again?

Dang.

OR did you mean "voted" as in "the latest poll which proves you are a troll"?

[John Q. Citizen]

68. It doesn't "..prove you are a troll." It only proves that most who have

participated believe 9/11 was an inside job.

I like that.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reprehensor]

28. JFK & 9/11 Insights Gained From Studying Both

1 hour google video, Peter Dale Scott draws parallels between the assassination of JFK and 9/11. Worth an hour of your time. From November, 2006.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7404458118476453937&hl=en

(This is not for Octafish, but others who are visiting this thread.)

[jberryhill]

32. some of these have been beat to death...

"Why is the bullet hole in the back of JFK’s jacket, when Congressman Gerald Ford and former CIA director Allen Dulles, on behalf of the Warren Commission, wrote the bullet passed through President Kennedy’s neck?"

Put on a suit jacket. Now, go sit in a leather car seat for a while....





Now, the jacket is bunched up to the level of his ear in that picture. How would you get a bullet through his neck without putting a hole through the jacket at a point in the back when the jacket is hanging flat. You are looking at a hole in a piece of clothing without any consideration of how that clothing was actually positioned on the body in question.

[the other one]

33. From the sixth floor of the depository

that shot would have come out his belly-button

[JackRiddler]

34. thanks for the obvious answer!

This photo and explanation only make the magic bullet theory more ridiculous. The arrow pointing at the creases in JFK's jacket is close to the downward trajectory required for a shot from the sixth floor to actually enter the jacket at that point. (Actually the angle would be tilted even further downwards.) Said shot could never exit from the thorax and proceed into Connally's torso, as the official story holds. So thanks again to jberryhill for providing more evidence against the lone gunman absurdity, if perhaps unintentionally.

[jberryhill]

61. So, just how was Connelly shot in the wrist?

You don't seem to question that Connelly was shot through the torso and into the wrist and thigh.

Where do you believe that shot came from?

Can you diagram a trajectory of Connelly's injuries which does not involve a trajectory that penetrates the President?

[truedelphi]

36. But it did! Only then due to a tremendous surge of human growth hormone,

JFK's body regrew the flesh over his belly button...

That's part of what has made this so tricky - the mysteriously riccocheting bullet, the
amazing ability of JFK to heal up over the real bullet holes, etc

It's also amazing that, these many years later, when publications like Reader's Digest try to do hit pieces on JFK, readers write in to say they were glad for his mention, sorry for the incorrect facts, and happy to be able to dwell on their favorite hero

[greyl]

40. Nope, that's a myth.

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100sbt.html

[Bolo Boffin]

41. Not true.

A number of factors put the actual path through Kennedy's body on a clear line from the depository window.

A. The suit jacket was bunched up. The hole in it appears to hang lower than the entry wound, but it is not.
B. Kennedy was struck with his arm raised, raising the back of the jacket even higher.
C. The car is going down an incline. This puts Kennedy in a leaning forward position.
D. Kennedy is elevated by the back seat as well.

The Discovery Channel duplicated the bullet strikes on Kennedy and Connolly from the actual window.

http://shopping.discovery.com/product-56798.html?jzid=40587982-0-0

[jberryhill]

51. Nonsense

[vincent_vega_lives]

74. sure it would

IF the limo had been parked across the street!!!

[Bolo Boffin]

39. Also, the road there is going down a hill.

I know, I live in Dallas now. I've been there.

Plus the seat Kennedy is sitting on is elevated. All of those factor show why the bullet entered where it did. The path through Kennedy's body is on a clear line from the sixth floor window.

[behave]

112. triple-folded material would indicate that a projectile would penetrate three layers yet only one

hole in Kennedy's jacket?

[behave]

114. this debunks the official "bunched up jacket" theory

[Imagevision]

35. When viewing Zapruder clip, you can easily SEE that JFK and Connelly

are not hit at the same time, you see Kennedy's arms up to his throat as the car advances the background moves several feet at a time - approximately 20-25 feet of background passes by when, Connelly's mouth goes wide open with the appearance of pain - in the clip it's obvious when Kennedy is hit, sure connelly turns but NO expression of pain whatsoever!!

Viewing the clip frame by frame you would have to be a moron to say Kennedy and Connelly were hit at the same time same bullet, the movement of the background clearly shows this.

[Bolo Boffin]

42. are hit at the same time.

Connolly doesn't react as quickly, but his suit jacket lapel pops forward just as Kennedy begins to react to the throat wound.

And different people react to different pain...differently.

[jberryhill]

50. I bought a copy on DVD

...really nice. They scanned every frame of the Zapruder film so they could then do things like run frames keyed to a specific point, to take out the jerkiness.

Watching over and over at full speed, it appears to me that Connelly involuntarily flinches when hit.

You can believe it or not... whatever... but the fact is that with JFK's jacket bunched in the back, the elevated rear seat, and the posture of the two men at the time, Kennedy's neck and Connelly's back line up in a trajectory that projects up and back to the sixth floor depository window. Does that necessarily mean that a single bullet followed that trajectory? No it does not. But it is certainly plausible.

This "anyone who doesn't agree with me is a moron" stuff is really tiring.

[dsa]

110. Are you serious?

The two events look nearly simultaneous to me.

[GETPLANING]

43. James Files shot JFK from the grassy knoll.

Google video has the interview with Files that will leave you slack-jawed.

[Bolo Boffin]

44. Only if you started slack-jawed. n/t

[Pachamama]

60. I never would have believed that G.H.W. Bush was connected to the assasination of JFK...

...until now. When I heard that what he said at Gerald Ford's funeral about JFK and referencing his assasination, it was so random, so out of place - so bizarre.

And the more that I think about it, the more I think that the old man was speaking out of guilt, out of worry that the truth is going to eventually come out. Funny thing is that about a dozen people I know who are not conspiracy theorists and are some of the most level headed and fact based people, when they heard about 41's comments, they felt the same way.

[jberryhill]

62. Then You'll Love These

Bush Son Had Dinner Plans With Hinckley Brother Before Shooting
The Associated Press
Domestic News
March 31, 1981, Tuesday, PM cycle

HOUSTON
The family of the man charged with trying to assassinate President
Reagan is acquainted with the family of Vice President George Bush
and had made large contributions to his political campaign, the
Houston Post reported today.

Scott Hinckley, brother of John W. Hinckley Jr., who allegedly shot
Reagan, was to have dined tonight in Denver at the home of Neil Bush,
one of the vice president's sons.

The newspaper said in a copyright story, Scott Hinckley, brother of
John W. Hinckley Jr., who allegedly shot Reagan, was to have dined
tonight in Denver at the home of Neil Bush, one of the vice president's
sons.

The newspaper said it was unable to reach Scott Hinckley, vice
president of his father's Denver-based firm, Vanderbilt Energy Corp.,
for comment. Neil Bush lives in Denver, where he works for Standard
Oil Co. of Indiana.

In 1978, Neil served as campaign manager for his brother, George W.
Bush, the vice president's oldest son, who made an unsuccessful bid
for Congress. Neil lived in Lubbock throughout much of 1978, where
John Hinckley lived from 1974 through 1980.

On Monday, Neil Bush said he did not know if he had ever met 25-year-old
John Hinckley.

From what I know and I've heard, they (the Hinckleys) are a very nice
family and have given a lot of money to the Bush campaign."

SHARON BUSH "I have no idea," he said. "I don't recognize any pictures
of him. I just wish I could see a better picture of him.

Sharon Bush, Neil's wife, said Scott Hinckley was coming to their house
as a date of a girl friend of hers.

"I don't even know the brother. From what I know and I've heard, they
(the Hinckleys) are a very nice family and have given a lot of money to
the Bush campaign. I understand he was just the renegade brother in the
family. They must feel awful," she said.

The dinner was canceled, she added.

George W. Bush said he was unsure whether he had met John W. Hinckley.

[Pachamama]

63. Coincidink???? Whoa...that is scary....and ofcourse, if I recall, wasn't 41 also having lunch w/ a

family member of the Bin Ladin's????

:scared:

Is it truly possible for such things to happen so many times to one person???? :eyes:

[jberryhill]

64. If your family is in the banking and oil business...

...then you run into all sorts of people.

Like the Clinton Body Count or the various degrees of connection to Kevin Bacon, one can find all sorts of 'connections' between people and events.

If your family is in the oil business then, yes, you are going to have all sorts of acquaintances among families in Texas and Saudi Arabia.

The dinner with the Hinckleys was, as you'll note, cancelled. If it was to have some sort of relation to the shooting, then why cancel the dinner? Also, if you consider that John Hinckley was crazy, and that his family was acquainted with the Bushes, then for John Hinckley to imagine himself as doing his family some sort of favor makes what he did more likely, not less likely. In other words, it is less of a "coincidence" that a nutty kid from a politically-connected family would fancy himself to be a political assassin than if he did not already have that social context in which to act out his nuttiness.

[vincent_vega_lives]

66. couple of answers

Which bullet caused seven major wounds in two men?

CE 399, the bent and deformed bullet on the far left. Here is a pic of 399 viewed end on.



When a bullet just like Commission Exhibit 399 is fired through a human wrist bone at 2,000 feed per second, it is almost certain to be badly mangled. But when CE 399 hit Connally's wrist it had been slowed by transiting Kennedy's torso and tumbling through Connally's chest. When it finally hit the hard radius bone, it was traveling about 1,000 feet per second. Dr. Martin Fackler, President of the International Wound Ballistics Association, fired a round identical to Oswald's bullet through a human wrist at 1,100 feet per second. Here is the resulting bullet.





Why is the bullet hole in the back of JFK’s jacket, when Congressman Gerald Ford and former CIA director Allen Dulles, on behalf of the Warren Commission, wrote the bullet passed through President Kennedy’s neck?

Here's the quote from the autopsy report:

The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the neck. This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck. Warren Commission Report, p. 543.

Why was the hole so low in the jacket? It was bunched up in the back.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bunched.htm

[jschurchin]

76. Couple questions Vince.

First, regarding this statement: "Dr. Martin Fackler, President of the International Wound Ballistics Association, fired a round identical to Oswald's bullet through a human wrist at 1,100 feet per second. Here is the resulting bullet."

Did this bullet shatter the test wrist radius bone and also did it leave any fragements behind?

Second, regarding this statement: "Why was the hole so low in the jacket? It was bunched up in the back."

Do you have any type of proof of the jacket being "bunched".

Thanks, in advance.

[jberryhill]

98. If you bothered to read the thread...

Jacket bunching:

[jschurchin]

99. Nice Try John.

Perhaps YOU need to investigate WHERE the holes are in the clothing. His jacket would have to bunched over his fucking head.

[jberryhill]

100. Why?

Why would it have to be over his head?

The bullet wound is shown above, and the jacket is clearly bunched up to the level of his ears. You don't need to have the jacket over his head in order to have a lower neck shot produce the hole shown in the jacket.

This is no great mystery, you can run the experiment yourself. Take a look at the hole in Kennedy, take a look at the hole in the jacket. Now reach behind you and pull a loose shirt up behind your neck to see how much bunching is required to line those two spots up.

To get a shirt to bunch up to my earlobe level easily puts the bullet hole below my shoulder blades if the shirt were hanging normally.

From what direction do you believe was Connally's wrist shot?

[Bassman66]

116. Did his shirt bunch up as well?

[bobbie]

67. One of the most painful aspect of President Kennedy's murder

Is realizing that the Secret Service did nothing to protect him. Quite the opposite...
The president trusted them with his life. It was the ultimate betrayal.

Oh and Emory P. Roberts, who pulled SSA Rybka off his post on the President's limo, went to work for Johnson *immediately*. Looks like it was a significant career move for him.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v4n1.html
SURVIVOR’S GUILT

THE SECRET SERVICE AND THE FAILURE TO PROTECT THE PRESIDENT

VINCENT MICHAEL PALAMARA

Revelations in Survivor’s Guilt

Editor’s note

Introduction

CHAPTER 1 / No-agents-on-the-limousine “policy”

CHAPTER 2 / A “hot” city goes “cold”: no threats

CHAPTER 3 / The bubble top: another myth dispelled

CHAPTER 4 / The Trade Mart and the motorcade route

CHAPTER 5 / Calling off the guards; strange omissions

CHAPTER 6 / Security stripping: further examples

CHAPTER 7 / The studies of November

CHAPTER 8 / Greer: the most important agent

CHAPTER 9 / Clues to the contingency

CHAPTER 10 / Roll call of participants: part 1

CHAPTER 11 / Roll call of participants: part 2

CHAPTER 12 / Roll call of participants: part 3

CHAPTER 13 / Roll call of participants: part 4

CHAPTER 14 / Lee Harvey Oswald

CHAPTER 15 / Motive

CHAPTER 16 / Nixon

CHAPTER 17 / The Chicago connection

CHAPTER 18 / Conclusions

APPENDIX A / List of interviews and contacts

APPENDIX B / JFK/LBJ Secret Service Agents list

APPENDIX C / Texas trip rosters and duties

Bibliography

About the author

Special thanks

[Grateful for Hope]

93. Thanks for this

I was old enough when it happened to be profoundly impacted by the asassination, and, your post really got to me.

I think that JFK was a basically very decent and good human being, despite being plagued by the physical issues he had. To know that he was betrayed by members of his beloved country still hurts very deeply.

[Octafish]

128. Vince Palamara has done the lion's share of research on Secret Service aspect...

http://vincepalamara.blogspot.com/2009/03/arnold-j-lau-85-retired-us-secret.html

We the People owe him a great deal of gratitude for exposing the traitors and murderers.

[nomatrix]

89. Thanks Octafish for the reminder

about it being a different world, everything changed with Johnson in office. The book, The Texas Connection, has some excellent references to who benefited from Kennedy's death.

In my life, as with yours, we lived through it, investigated it and maybe that is why I refuse to buy into any exact answer from a govt investigation that dumps all the blame on one individual and makes no reference to who benefited now that they are gone.

I am also curious why the same people stay here just to argue against the "possibility" that what they are being told might not be the truth. Oh well. Such an obsession is strange, but then again I know people who argue about everything. The need to be right.

[Octafish]

103. Those who say 'Case Closed' remind me of O'Reilly telling guests who disagree to 'Shut up!'

President Kennedy did all he could to keep the peace, vowing to never send U.S. draftees into an unwinnable war in Southeast Asia. The American advisors serving there were volunteers.

His successors Johnson and Nixon escalated the war in Vietnam. They did send in draftees.

Regarding the changes in policy, "JFK and Vietnam" by John Newman is most telling. When he was a Major in the U.S. Army, John Newman was a history professor at West Point. There he got to do some research into the Pentagon Papers and discovered a big gap in the public record. He ended up re-discovering Professor Peter Dale Scott's pair of National Security Action Memoranda from Fall of 1963 that just about say it all. The NSAMs, like today's National Security Decision Directives, were action orders.

In NSAM 263: JFK authorized the withdrawal of all U.S. forces from Vietnam. He wants the job done, one way or another, by 1964.

In NSAM 273: Written just days after the assassination, President Lyndon B. Johnson authorizes whatever level of suppport is required to support, defend and preserve the government of South Vietnam.

Gee. A few months after that and we have the Gulf of Tonkin incident and a casus beli.

"JFK and Vietnam" also details how the Pentagon was telling JFK that thing were going well in Vietnam. Meanwhile, the generals and admirals were telling vice-president Johnson that they needed more troops to win.

Here's a link to the doucment archives at the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library:

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Archives/Archives+and+Manuscripts/fa_newman.htm

I don't care how much I sound like a broken record or how much people bitch and call this "conspiracy theory." The truth of the matter is the United States has been on war footing pretty much non-stop since 22 November 1963.

[Bolo Boffin]

123. Case Closed! n/t

[Octafish]

124. Such wit is very much appreciated by George Herbert 'I was in Dallas Nov 22, 1963' Walker Bush.

Poppy wants people to "shut up" about Dallas already.
He also wants people to believe in the Warren Commission and that "heh" (grins) deluded gunman.

http://www.truveo.com/Bush-Senior-Grins-at-the-words-Deluded-Gunman/id/381887063

For those interested, check out Poppy's chuckle the moment he brings up the "deluded gunman."
It's at the 1:05 mark in the above video.

It's easy to see why Poppy wants people to shut up about Dallas already. He was there that awful day.

And Poppy Bush has been present at much of America's darkest chapters -- from Vietnam to Watergate to the Safari Club to the October Surprise to BCCI to Iran-Contra to Iraqgate to foisting his Dim Son upon America. We know how great that's turned out for the kleptocrats.

Some like to say that's all a coincidence. I don't know why, but it must also be a coincidence they like to tell people to "shut up" about all that already, too.

[LARED]

125. Looks to me like he saw someone in the audience and

smiled at them.

[LARED]

126. Excellent book nt

[Octafish]

148. Misinformation and Disinformation amped up by Project MOCKINGBIRD.

Here's some real analysis that gets ignored by ABCNNBCBSFauxNoiseNutwork:

POSNER in New Orleans
GERRY IN WONDERLAND

By James A. DiEugenio
Electronic Assassinations Newsletter
Issue #1 "Case Closed or Posner Exposed?"

Listening to the media accompaniment surrounding the release of Gerald Posner's 600 page volume Case Closed, one was reminded of the trumpet blare which sounded when the Warren Report was released 29 years ago. Reading U.S. News and World Report, a usually staid and reserved publication, one would have expected an investigatory effort worthy of Scotland Yard or the Mossad. What emerges after all the sound and fury is an effort more comparable to the Dallas or Los Angeles Police Departments.

Before getting to the main focus of this essay, one needs to comment on some general matters regarding Mr. Posner and his book. Reportedly, like John McCloy and Allen Dulles, Mr. Posner is a Wall Street lawyer. Based on three interviews with sources who read his previous book on Mengele, Posner whitewashed that notorious Nazi's ties to the Hitler regime before his McCloy-aided escape to South America after World War II. This may help explain Posner's quite questionable use of sources.

About the first half of Case Closed deals exclusively with the life and careers of Lee Oswald. Like the Warren Commission and the five volume FBI report on the assassination, Posner's focus is on Oswald and it is in extreme close-up since it is always easier to portray, a man as a lone nut if you draw him in a virtual vacuum. But to rig the apparatus even further, Posner uses the most specious witnesses imaginable in his single-minded prosecutorial proceeding. Scanning his footnotes for the first ten chapters, a rough approximation would estimate that about 75% of them originate from the Warren Commission volumes. In turn, many of these citings come from the testimony of Marina Oswald who, as lawyer Posner must know, could not have testified at Oswald's trial. Also, Posner never reveals to the reader how Marina was abducted and then stowed away at the Inn of the Six Flags Hotel and how she was virtually quarantined while she was being threatened with deportation. Posner never points out any of the problems and inconsistencies with her Warren Commission testimony, which even some of the Commission members had reservations about, and which a skillful defense lawyer would be able to exploit to great advantage. If that were not enough, Posner quotes liberally from the testimony of both Ruth Paine and George DeMohrenschildt, two people who - to say the least - have questionable motives in this case and both of whom have direct and indirect ties to the CIA. Again, Posner ignores those ties and actually states that DeMohrenschildt had no connection to American intelligence (p. 86), when the CIA admitted those connections over 15 years ago. Posner also uses Oswald's "Historic Diary" against him when everyone, even Edward Epstein, admits that it was not a "diary" at all, but was composed in 2 or 3 installments, probably as part of Oswald's cover as an espionage agent. Finally, Posner quotes liberally from the work of Priscilla Johnson McMillan, the newspaper correspondent who interviewed Oswald in Russia, then helped the Warren Commission find Oswald's tickets to Mexico after the FBI could not. She then locked up Marina Oswald for 13 years with a book contract until Marina and Lee, the mother of all "Oswald-did-it" books appeared in 1977. The working papers of staff lawyer David Slawson reveal that even the Warren Commission suspected Ms. McMillan had ties to the CIA.

This is all prelude to what the author does when his book reaches the locale of New Orleans. Posner seems all too aware that the city and Oswald's actions there in the summer of 1963 pose a serious threat to the main thesis of his book. Perhaps this is why his bibliography lists all of Harold Weisberg's books except Oswald in New Orleans. For to admit that Oswald was associating with clandestine operatives like Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and Guy Banister poses a big problem for a man intent on painting Oswald as a demented communist zealot. Consequently, Posner shifts into a denial mode and sustains it by any means necessary. For instance, Posner begins Chapter 7 by stating that, according to Marina, Oswald was home early every evening for the couple's entire stay in New Orleans. Posner has often stated that he had access to the late Jim Garrison's files. If he did he would have found out that Oswald stayed overnight on more than one occasion in a room adjacent to the French Quarter restaurant "The Court of the Two Sisters". The room was arranged by a mutual friend of Shaw and Ferrie. Posner mentions that Oswald worked at Reily Coffee Company while in New Orleans but leaves out the facts of the Reily family's connections to Cuban exile groups and the peculiar coincidence of Oswald's colleagues being transferred from Reily to the NASA complex at nearby Michaud Air Force Base. Posner states that Oswald's expenditures of nearly $23.00 on pro-Castro leaflets was not exorbitant even though it was about 1/6 of what he was making per month. or the equivalent of a man making $3,000 per month spending about $500 on political flyers. On page 157, Posner writes that the altercation between Carlos Bringuier and Oswald on Canal Street in August of '63 and which resulted in Oswald's conspicuous arrest, was not staged. Yet he never asks the logical followup question: if it was not staged then why did Oswald write about it days in advance? Of William Gaudet, one of the CIA agents who escorted Oswald off on his strange tour of Mexico, Posner writes that he had no relation to the case outside of being next to Oswald when in line to buy a tourist card for south of the border. He adds that Gaudet was a "newspaper editor". Posner does not write that the newspaper Gaudet edited was a right wing propaganda sheet about South American politics, that one of his reporting duties was supplying infomation to the CIA, that one of the men he worked for earIy in his career was a business associate of Shaw's, and that Gaudet has a virtually rent-free office in the International Trade Mart which was provided to him by Shaw.

Posner frequently uses character assassination when he finds testimony contrary to his thesis. Orest Pena had stated to Harold Weisberg that he had seen Oswald at his bar, the Habana. That tavern was a frequent watering hole for Ferrie, Bringuier, Shaw, and other militant Cuban exiles. Posner states (p. 167), that Pena recanted his story at his first FBI interview and vacillated before the Warren Commission. Posner does not state that Pena was visited by both Bringuier and FBI agent Warren DeBrueys and warned about his official testimony. Posner tries to finish off Pena by adding that he was later charged with managing prostitutes out of his establishment and was aided in his legal defense by "leading conspiracy buff Mark Lane." What he faiIs to add is that his legal problems come about after his testimony before the Warren Commission and that the charges were so weak they never came to trial.

Posner's most breathtaking balancing act relates to Oswald's relationship with Ferrie and Banister. On page 143, he states that the many Civil Air Patrol cadets who testified to Oswald being in Ferrie's CAP before he joined the Marines must be either mistaken or lying since Ferrie was thrown out of the CAP in the mid-fifties when Oswald was supposed to be in his unit. Posner's blinders keep him from telling the reader that, at this time, Ferrie formed his own CAP unit in Metairie and it was this unit that Oswald was a member of. This information is available in the invaluable Southern Research Company investigation of Ferrie commissioned by Eastern Airlines during his dismissal hearings. These papers are on file at the AARC. Posner states he spent many hours there. Did he skip the Ferrie file? On page 428, Posner states that "there was no evidence that connected Ferrie and Oswald". In Garrison's files it is revealed that Ferrie stated this himself to two people - Ray Broshears and Lou Ivon. He also told them he worked for the CIA. If Posner needs further evidence of the Ferrie-Oswald friendship he should ask Gus Russo who he credits in his acknowledgments. Russo found a photo of the two together from a friend who knew the pair in Ferrie's CAP.

CONTINUED...

http://www.assassinationweb.com/de.htm

More on Posner: http://www.assassinationweb.com/issue1.htm



Small world.

[dbeach]

91. "The Bushy Knoll"

I was researching Bush family connections to Iran and found this ole gem.

One Amazin coincidence was:
Sen. John Heinz died 4/4/91 {S.& B.}
Sen. John Tower died 4/5/91...both good friends..both small plane crashes

http://www.lizmichael.com/bushykno.htm

"The Bushy Knoll"



The following is a partial list of deaths of persons connected to the family of current President George W. Bush and his father, George Herbert Walker Bush.

John Fitzgerald Kennedy
An internal FBI memo reported that on November 22 a reputed businessman named George H. W. Bush reported hearsay that a certain Young Republican had been talking of killing the President when he came to Houston. According to a 1988 story in The Nation, J. Edgar Hoover said in a memo that Mr. George Bush of the CIA had been briefed on November 23rd, 1963 about the reaction of anti-Castro Cuban exiles in Miami to the assassination of President Kennedy. George H. W. Bush has denied this, although he was in Texas and cannot account for his whereabouts at the time.

Paul Wellstone
Senator Wellstone, his wife Sheila, daughter Marcia, three of his staff and both pilots were killed when his small plane went down in Evelyth, Minnesota, on October 27, 2002. He was a vocal opponent of the Bush administration and the only real progressive in the Senate.

Barbara Olson
Author of "Hell to Pay" - a book critical of Hillary Clinton, killed in the Pentagon bombing. Her husband, Ted Olson, was Soliticor General in the Bush II Administration.

Nicola Capilari
Italian Secret Service agent murdered by America forces in Iraq trying to assassinate freed hostage and Italian reporter Giuliana Sgrena, March 2005. Sgrena was warned by her captors that the Americans would try to kill her. They were right.

Senator Henry John Heinz III
He chaired the three-man presidential review board that probed the Iran-contra affair. He died in a plane crash in April 1991.

Margie Schoedinger
Killed in December of 2003 by a gunshot wound to the head. Accused George W. Bush of raping her.

Dr. David Kelly
Dr Kelly was called to give evidence before the foreign affairs select committee of the British Parliament, and was the acknowledged source of the BBC for revealing that the Bush-Blair premise for the invasion of Iraq, namely the Weapons of Mass Destruction scenario, was a fraud. Kelly was founded dead of an "apparent suicide", but under suspicious circumstances, July 18, 2003, at Harrowdown Hill, 45 minutes from his home.

Colin McMillan
President George W. Bush's nominee to be civilian head of the Navy, "committed suicide" at his southern New Mexico ranch July 25, 2003.

Steve Kangas
His web site, Liberalism Resurgent, was meticulously researched and presented such a problem to Richard Scaife, that he hired a private detective to look into Kangas' past. Steve Kangas was found in a 39th-floor bathroom outside of Scaife's offices at One Oxford Centre, in Pittsburgh, an apparent suicide. Mr. Kangas, a very prolific writer, left no note. He had brought a fully-packed suitcase of clothes with him to Pittsburgh. He bought a burglar alarm shortly before he left for Pittsburgh. Why did he need a burglar alarm if he was going to commit suicide? An avowed advocate of gun control, he nevertheless bought a gun. What was he afraid of? Why did he go to Pittsburgh? After his death, his computer was sold for $150 and its hard drive wiped clean. Everything in his apartment was thrown away. Scaife is heavily connected to Bush I.

Bertha Champagne
Household servant for Marvin Bush, brother of the President, was found crushed to death by her own vehicle in a driveway in front of the Bush family home in the Alexandria section of Fairfax County on September 29, 2003. The vehicle was supposedly left in gear. No explanations have been offered as to why the vehicle did not move until Champagne was in a position to be crushed. There is a rumor that Champagne may have had incriminating knowledge of connections between the 9-11 hijackings and Marvin Bush's companies.

Danny Casolaro
He was working on a book that tied together the scandals surrounding the presidency of George H. W. Bush, the Mena airport drug running operation, and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He told his friends he was going to "bring back" the head of the Octopus. Instead, his body was found in a hotel in Martinsburg, West Virginia, on August 10, 1991, with slit wrists.

Mark Lombardi
He was an accomplished conceptual artist who, while chatting on the phone with a banker friend about the Bush savings and loan scandal, started doodling a diagram and was inspired to create a complex series of drawings and sketches that charted the details of the scandal. According to the New York Times, "He was soon charting the complex matrices of personal and professional relationships, conflict of interest, malfeasance and fraud uncovered by investigations into the major financial and political scandals of the day; to keep facts and sources straight, he created a handwritten database that now includes around 12,000 3-by-5-inch cards." On the evening of March 22, 2000, Mark Lombardi was found hanging in his loft."

[seemslikeadream]

94. Can some one explain to me why there is listed 126 posts to this thread

and the last one was on Fri Jan-26-07 03:54 AM ? WHERE IS THIS POST?

Am I missing something?


Why is this post #94 and #127?

[AZCat]

95. There is a deleted sub-thread upthread.

I don't know why it reset the post numbers - usually they continue - but that's where all the missing posts went.

[defendandprotect]

106. "OSWALD WAS EMPLOYED BY CIA WORKING ON HIGH LEVEL ASSIGNMENTS . . ..

AND PROBABLY ALSO FOR THE FBI"

That was the conclusion of the JFK 1992 Records Act -- Classified Documents

At the time of the assassination, journalists asked for employment records, IRS filings for Oswald -- all denied.

Again -- this was the conclusion of John Tunnheim and the panel which saw the classified documents --

A&E ran a documentary on the panel -- and John Tunnheim repeats these facts twice -- with text below -- don't expect to see the documentary again any time soon!!!!

[MinM]

111. Atsugi Air Base | Albert Schweitzer College | Angleton

Exactly right, d&p :kick:'n R

from Atsugi Air Base

YouTube - Oswald at Atsugi

to Albert Schweitzer College



and his handlers ie., James Jesus Angleton, George Joannides, John Hurt (military intelligence) in Nags Head, NC., to Ruth and Michael Paine...
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51a%2BIvU8oWL._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/oswaldpatsy/">Lee Harvey Oswald was the spook left out in the cold.


http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/search?q=Oswald
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x369694#369712
http://rakemucker.blogspot.com/2008/01/did-lapd-send-lee-harvey-oswald-to.html
http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/
http://www.ctka.net/home.html

[defendandprotect]

258. Thanks for the reply -- a little late in acknowledging it!!!

And thanks for the links and additional info!

[Cetacea]

127. Danny Casolaro

The Village Voice did a follow up on the strange "suicide" of Casolaro. He warned loved ones a week before his death that if anything happened to him, it wasn't by his own hand.

At his fumeral, two men dressed in Military Uniforms approached the casket and placed a pin on his body, stepped back, and saluted. If memory serves me well, he had no formal military background.

[Bassman66]

115. For good measure... Lapel flap

Connally's jacket with hole circled.

Just what is that in frame Z-224 then?

Connally may even have been shot as late as Z-230 to 235.

[Bolo Boffin]

118. Hey, does anyone reading this thread know why they were driving through Dealey Plaza right then?

Because Elm Street (that road cutting through Dealey Plaza) is how you get onto Highway 35E from downtown Dallas. And when I say, get onto 35E, the ramp is right there. You go down the hill, under the railroad tracks, start back up, and the ramp takes you onto the highway.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=dallas+map&ie=UTF8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ll=32.778945,-96.809624&spn=0.00239,0.004179&z=18

So why is there a question as to why there were no agents on the back of Kennedy's limo? They were about to get onto the freaking highway!

Octafish does manage to say that the "waved off the back" video was filmed at Love. But the assassination happened on the way back to Love. It's never plainly put by JFK CT advocates that the film was recorded hours before the assassination, but that doesn't make as pretty a CT picture, does it? It is only the cherrypicking and discreet placement of facts that has allowed the JFK CT's to survive this long.

But it really was just Oswald in the Texas School Book Depository with his little mail-order rifle. Check out the Bugliosi book for more evidence than you think exists to show this.

Happy Holidays, Octafish!

[dflprincess]

119. The assassination did not happen on the way back to Love

it happened on the way from Love to the Trade Mart where JFK was scheduled to speak.

[Bolo Boffin]

120. Edited: Well, I'll be.

You're right. However, I am right in that they were getting onto the highway to go there, and that was on the way back to the airport. I thought the dinner was at the airport.

Regardless, they were getting onto the highway and the agents wouldn't have been on the back of the car because of that.

[dflprincess]

121. But standard procedure would have had agents on the car as long as it was moving slowly.

When it reached the point that it would have to pick up speed then the agents would have hopped off their perches and been picked up by a car or cars futher back in the motorcade.

[Bolo Boffin]

122. Well, we're just going to have to disagree about that.

I say they were about to get onto the highway and they wouldn't have been there anyway.

And the case against Oswald certainly doesn't boil down to this.

[defendandprotect]

257. Also, the motorcycle police should have been riding beside the car, not behind . . .

[Marksbrother]

129. Your facts about Oswald are wrong & Bugliosi is too...

The claims you made about Oswald have been 100% debunked. All of them.

[Bolo Boffin]

130. How nice.

When I get a fresh batch of cookies cooked up, you'll be the first to get one.

[Marksbrother]

131. Sounds to me like a concession.

Let me know when the cookies are ready.

[Bolo Boffin]

132. There's part of your problem

"Eyeroll and sarcasm" != "Concession".

If you really want a cookie, you'll put that on a flash card and refer to it constantly.

[Marksbrother]

133. Not knowing much about the evidence is YOUR problem.

That's far more significant than your lack of modesty and good manners, but if you ever decide you'd like to raise your level
of knowledge beyond how to evade, insult, and otherwise show you know that your positions are unsustainable, let me know.

[SDuderstadt]

136. This coming from the guy who claims...

''there can't be evidence of planes crashing on 9/11, because no planes crashed on 9/11''. I can't recall off the top my head, but I believe that logical fallacy is called ''denying the antecedent''. Instead of working forward from the evidence, you work backwards from the conclusion you want, then are forced into cogitive dissonance by your inflexibility.

How does it feel to set the ''truth movement'' back even further than it already is?

[Marksbrother]

138. Dude yourself

You cannot prove that ANY planes crashed ANYWHERE on 9/11. If you are claiming that planes did crash, I say that's a delusional
claim that goes far beyond the typically goofy and silly claims you make.

[SDuderstadt]

140. I am claiming 4 planes crashed on 9/11...

and the evidence for that is overwhelming. That's why the ''truth movement'' disavows ''no-planers''. Maybe you can work your way back into their good graces again.

[Marksbrother]

142. You didn't provide any evidence, let alone credible evidence.

You won't debate the most basic issue in this forum: Was 9/11 an inside job?

The reason you won't debate it is because it would require you to have to provide evidence which can withstand scrutiny, and

most people here know that if you can't get away with just making goofy claims, you won't play. Insult other members, yes, but

that's about it.

[SDuderstadt]

144. Dude...the claim "9/11 was an inside job" is YOURS...

I'm not sure which evidence you believe I need to present, unless you're arguing from ignorance that unless I can prove 9/11 was not an inside job, it must have been an inside job. Your really tenuous grasp of Logic is what gets you into at least half of these stupid arguments.


When you discover that elusive smoking gun, let us know.

[Marksbrother]

149. You just need to prove some of your goofy claims

And stop trying to avoid the burden of proof which is clearly yours. YOU said four planes crashed, but you can't prove it.

It's been almost eight years and the facts haven't changed and aren't going to change, so why don't you just acknowledge

the TRUTH for once and admit that you can't prove that claim and you certainly can't prove the other 9/11 BUSHCO tales.

[SDuderstadt]

152. Dude, with the exception of UA 93...

there are innumerable live witnesses who saw the planes crash into their targets. Your supposed counter to this is they were all ''hallucinating''. This is why you are being shunned by your own movement and being written off as a ''disinfo agent''.

For the record, I am not debating your goofy ''no-planes'' claims with you further.

[Marksbrother]

153. dude yourself

In case no one has ever told you before, those alleged "live" witnesses could not have seen a real plane crash into anything. If a real plane had crashed in NYC or at the Pentagon, there would be authentic video images of the event. The video images which
everyone saw were doctored, altered, faked composites with cartoon planes inserted into them.

[SDuderstadt]

155. your "counters" just get more absurd...

your cant debunk the. live witnesses, so you pretend they dint exist. no wonder the "twit movement" has shunned "no-planers".

[SDuderstadt]

134. Is this supposed to be some sort of rebuttal,MB?

See, I can play the same game...''all your claims about the JFK assassination have been debunked, MB''...see how easy that is?

[Marksbrother]

135. There's a big difference between when I say that and when ...

a True Believer does. When I say it, it's because I know that the issue or issues have been thoroughly analyzed by objective
researchers. Whenever a True Believer claims something has been rebutted, it almost always means that a partisan, usually right-wing
shill has merely taken the government's word about the issue, repeats it, and then cites the government "expert" if challenged.

Yes, I know how easy it is for you to play games. It's a standard TB tactic to evade and avoid uncomfortable questions and evidence.

[SDuderstadt]

137. Dude...point

to a RW shill I have cited. Please be specific. Oh, and please spare us the ''my sources must be pure and right because I'm citing them'' nonsense.

[Marksbrother]

139. Dude yourself

Point to the shills you've cited about 9/11 or JFK. We've already nailed John McAdams. Who else have you ever cited?

[SDuderstadt]

141. If I've cited so many ''RW shills'' on 9/11...

it should be easy to cite one by name. As far as McAdams is concerned, he teaches a class on the assassination. My source is Bugliosi far more often. I'd love for you to tell us how the author of ''The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder'' is some sort of ''RW shill''. Please.

[Marksbrother]

143. YOU named two of them in that post!

Case Closed.

[SDuderstadt]

145. Fucking unbelievable....

You're claiming Vincent Bugliosi is a "RW shill".

[Bolo Boffin]

146. You know that "Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder" book was just cover

Bugliosi kicked that out after a lost weekend of Scotch and high-stakes Texas Hold'em. He lost his shirt and just had to play that one more hand. So he went all in with "choice of my next book subject" and lost. I've got pictures of when he heard what the topic was going to have to be.

Hysterical stuff, mang.

[Kalun D]

147. SURE he did

and then he got the "Horse's head in the bed" and he's been on the straight and narrow ever since.

[Marksbrother]

150. The Bug Man is a bit of an opportunist. To put it mildly.

BTW, any good trial lawyer would tell you that there was absolutely nothing brilliant about his prosecution in the Manson case.

Any two-bit DA could have won convictions against Manson et al. And the Bug Man - who to this day doesn't know how to use a

computer - hired ghostwriters to complete his prosecutor's brief of Oswald. The title of the book, "Reclaiming History",

illustrates the typical arrogance of a right-wing shill.

[SDuderstadt]

151. You'll trash anyone who disagrees with you...

You really have a lot of nerve calling Bugliosi a ''RW shill''. As to your claim that he hired ghost writers for any part of ''Reclaiming History'', do you have a shred of evidence for your goofy claim? It's also beyond silly to claim that anyone who devoted 20 years of their life to writing an exhaustive study of JFK's assassination is an ''opportunist''. Your arrogance and disregard of the facts is fucking unbelievable. Have you even read the book?

[Marksbrother]

154. Is the Bug Man a hero of yours?

If so, you're the only self-described progressive I've ever encountered who considers him as such. In fact, among progressives
who have studied the JFK case, he's considered a bad joke. Nearly everyone who bought his book regrets having done so.

It's also obvious that you either are so clueless about him that you don't know he's actually "admitted" that he used ghostwriters, or else you do know it and are trying to pretend like it isn't true.

[SDuderstadt]

156. If he's admitted he's used ghostwriters...

It should be easy for you to prove it. Why can't you?

More importantly, I know plenty of progressives, like myself, who neither regret buying the book nor regard it as a bad joke, except for people like yourself who admit to not even reading the book.

Quit begging the question, dude. If you have proof of your goofy claims, provide it.

[Marksbrother]

159. Look in the book itself.

"More importantly, I know plenty of progressives, like myself, who neither regret buying the book nor regard it as a bad joke"

Yes, I bet you do.

[SDuderstadt]

160. Dude...I HAVE the book and it's not in there anywhere...

Now, it's your claim....do you have any proof of that at all or is this just more of your bullshit?

BTW, as far as your claim that his book only received good reviews from "corporate news sources", here's a link to plenty that aren't:

http://reclaiminghistory.com/?page_id=8

[Marksbrother]

162. See page 1515

Then come back and spin it.

[SDuderstadt]

164. Quit playing games and cite specifically what he said...

that you claim amounts to an admission of anything so everyone can see how you play hard and loose with the facts.

[Marksbrother]

165. In other words, you don't have the book, do you?

That's what I thought. If you actually read it, as you claim you did, then you wouldn't have to be asking me to tell you
what it says. Maybe Mr. Bolo will lend you his copy and you can look it up in there. He's probably finished reading it by now.
What was it, 400 pages, 500? Whatever, it was a big book, but he's probably a fast reader, so surely he's finished the whole thing.

[Bolo Boffin]

166. La, I'm in the process of moving.

I'd have to dig it out. While I work my way through the boxes, can you provide the quote?

[SDuderstadt]

168. Of course, he can't or...

he would have already.

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bolo Boffin]

171. The name is Bolo or Bolo Boffin. We aren't friends, and cutesy-pie names are considered an attack.

And it will take me a lot longer to get to it than for you to simply leaf through your copy and produce the quote...

...or produce the website where you acquired your opinion of the book so that we can evaluate that.

[Marksbrother]

172. So you had my post deleted because of THAT?

I had no idea that you were so sensitive about a damn username. That's pretty amazing. Really. There was absolutely no intent

to offend you whatsoever, so I assume there was something else in the post that allowed you to have that done. At least I sure

hope that's the case. Otherwise, lots of people might start getting ideas.

[Bolo Boffin]

175. I alerted your post because of your personal attack.

Mangling usernames is considered an attack here. There is no need to demean me by turning my username into a patronizing "endearment."

You still haven't produced the place from which you acquired your opinions about Bugliosi's book.

[Marksbrother]

183. Found your copy of the book yet?

[Bolo Boffin]

189. No. Discovered the URL of the site where you get your opinions from yet? n/t

[Ghost in the Machine]

214. The irony is just............ Amazing!

[Marksbrother]

215. Maybe it has to do with the stresses of moving! EOM

[Bolo Boffin]

217. Found the box - scanned page 1515

And it is as SDuderstadt has described. You are factually inaccurate when you say the book was ghostwritten.



You should exercise more care as to where you get your opinions about things from. Try reading the book itself instead of relying on whom you did for your thoughts, as they have let you down very badly here.

[SDuderstadt]

218. Well, that should shut him up...

BTW, how'd you scan that page and get it into the post? If I'd known how to do it, I'd have shut him up sooner. Frankly, I don't know why anyone would believe a single word he says after getting his ass kicked time after time.

[Marksbrother]

220. So, just as I said, he used ghostwriters. Just didn't call 'em that.

Figuring out who all and how many there were is of course more interesting and significant than the substance of the book, which

no one in the research community believes is worth the paper it was printed on.

[Bolo Boffin]

222. NO. Words mean things.

Ghostwriter means an unacknowledged writer who does the bulk or all of the work. These are two acknowledged writers who worked on relatively small sections of this book.

Words mean things. These are not ghostwriters.

[Marksbrother]

225. Ghostwriters may or may not write the bulk of the work.

Some do, some don't. In Bugliosi's case, it's thought that he utilized a number of ghostwriters. How many is unknown and unknowable.

One of the telltale signs in Bugliosi's case is that the writing style is said to differ even within the same chapter or subject

matter.



Personally, I don't care how many he used. The book is worthless according to serious researchers whose opinion I'd value

much more so than that of a True Believer who has a "tude" and shows no respect towards fellow members who disagree with

goofy claims and sillier ones alike.

[Bolo Boffin]

226. Ghostwriters are UNACKNOWLEDGED writers.

BTW, here's your problem. "It's thought" ISN'T EVIDENCE THAT IT IS SO.

You've got nothing. You can't even share your sources for all of this "thought" and speculation on his writing style.

Who the fuck cares about what you think on this matter? You made a claim for which you have no evidence. None. Nary. Nada.

And now you "personally don't care how many he used." Then why the fuck did you bring it up??

[Marksbrother]

227. Who the H cares how many unacknowledged writers he used?

I don't.

You don't seem at all interested in the fact that his book is considered worthless by serious researchers and JFK assassination

experts. Why is that? You seem far more concerned about the controversy over how many people Bugliosi paid to write portions

of the book.


You'd be better off concerning yourself with why only the remaining Lone Nutters think it's a worthwhile book.

[SDuderstadt]

228. MB fails to point out that...

"Reclaiming History" also won the 2008 Edgar award.

[Marksbrother]

229. You mean the J. Edgar ("EDNA") Hoover "award"?

Tell us about it.

[SDuderstadt]

230. No, dude...

the Edgar Allen Poe Award for crime writing. Go back to sleep.

[Marksbrother]

231. An award for FICTION! What a hoot!

That's about the only honest thing one can say about the Bug Man's book. Too funny. Too silly. Too goofy. Thanks.

[SDuderstadt]

232. No, dude...

in the non-fiction category. Why don't you do some basic research before spouting off about things you know nothing about?

[Marksbrother]

233. They made a huge mistake.

His book was a flop. Did you actually PAY for your copy? (You DID say you own a copy, right?)

[SDuderstadt]

234. Done...

I'm not engaging with you in your general silliness, dude.

[Marksbrother]

235. Fine. There's really nothing worth saying about Bugliosi

Some people believe that he was so arrogant that he actually thought (20+ years ago, whenever he began writing his book) he

would be the first person to actually find evidence which proves the Lone Nut theory, but there came a time when he realized

that wasn't going to happen, so he dedicated himself to the task of dismissing evidence that he couldn't spin away (sound familiar?)

and decided that his best course was to simply present as many arguments as he could in favor of Oswald's guilt, in the hope

that the volume of arguments would outweigh the lack of evidence and that people wouldn't realize that he never substantiates

his claims.


Goofy claims and silly claims like what one finds here. Just no addressing the issue at hand and nothing to substantiate the BUSHCO

conspiracy theory.

[Marksbrother]

219. Think those were the only ghostwriters he used?

It's possible, but he may well have used others, too. Probably had them sign a non-disclosure agreement. I've read that he
may have employed up to 20 people to "help" him write the book. I doubt he refers to any of them as ghostwriters. Wouldn't
be prudent.

[Bolo Boffin]

221. Jesus Christ, be careful with those goalposts!

You're liable to stab out your brain.

Your claim was that Bugliosi admitted to having ghostwriters. Your evidence was page 1515 in the actual book, contrary to the definition of ghostwriter, which is someone unacknowledged to be a writer of the book, just as SDuderstadt said.

And now you claim more ghostwriters, something for which you will never present any evidence, and that he wouldn't admit to the ghostwriters anyway!

Your handwaving and 180 degree switch is astounding.

[SDuderstadt]

223. MB isn't exactly known for precision...

more like 180 degrees the opposite.

[MrMickeysMom]

238. Yes, that's what he DOES

Man, I'm having DejeVu all over again... This is like reading one of my old threads here.

This is what he does. You won't find these people going over to GD to talk about single payer, or pretending to be progressive elsewhere... except (ahem) here.

[Marksbrother]

173. I consider "truther" a cutesy-pie name & insult, but those who use it

needn't worry that I'll press the alert button. YES, I know that YOU personally don't do that. You've already said so a few times.

[SDuderstadt]

167. No, dude...I don't tote it back and forth to work...

everyday. Stupid question.

Beyond that, if you're directing me to page 1515, why would you ask me if the book was 400-500 pages long? BTW, it's 1612 pages and that doesn't even include the endnotes, which are on their own CD and run another 1000 plus pages. Of course, we wouldn't expect you to actually read a book that long or detailed.

Why don't you quit playing games and tell us what Bugliosi supposedly said in which he ''admits'' he used ''ghostwriters'' on page 1515? Unless, of course, this just more of your bullshit.

[Marksbrother]

170. Sorry. I didn't realize you didn't have it with you. After you

get home you can look it up. Mr. Boloboffin is sounding like it might be a while before he finds his copy, what with moving
and everything, don't you know.

[SDuderstadt]

174. Fucking unbelievable....

Dude...do you know what the definition of "ghostwriter" is?

From dictionary.com:

ghost writer 
–noun a person who writes one or numerous speeches, books, articles, etc., for another person who is named as or presumed to be the author.

In "Reclaiming History", Bugliosi acknowledges the help of both Dale Myers and Fred Haines, both of whom helped him with the writing of several sections. How you conflate that into "ghostwriting" is truly remarkable. Haines wrote the book or even substantial parts of it for Bugliosi. No wonder you didn't want to cite anything specifically that Bugliosi had said. It's also generally considered to be the case that the "ghostwriter" is not acknowledged in any way, yet Bugliosi prominently acknowledges both of them. I just knew this was more of your bullshit and what results when you let someone else do your thinking and, apparently, your reading for you. Your intellectual dishonesty is simply stunning.

[Marksbrother]

177. Is that a quote from page 1515?

If it isn't, how about a direct quote from the book. You do have it, don't you?

[Bolo Boffin]

178. How about you produce the direct quote from page 1515 that you're referring to?

Your claim, you back it up. How about that?

[Marksbrother]

181. You claim to have read the book.

Don't you remember what's in it? Maybe after you get moved, you'll be able to find it in one of those boxes. It's a big book,
and you shouldn't have any trouble locating it.

[Bolo Boffin]

190. I haven't claimed to have read the book. I have it, and I've read through it here and there.

It is a very big book. I have at least 16 boxes of very big books, very small books, all kinds. When I do find it, I will go to page 1515. Of course you could produce the quote you refer to, or you could produce the site that gives you your opinion of it instead of reading it for yourself, and save all of this trouble. Why won't you do that?

[Marksbrother]

193. I haven't read it. never claimed I have, and haven't claimed

to own a copy of it. But if I did have it at one time, the dog must have eaten it. At any rate, regardless of how many
ghostwriters Bugliosi paid to "assist" him, it isn't worth the paper it was printed on.

I'll keep reminding you to find your copy. Have you finished moving yet?

[Bolo Boffin]

195. You made a characterization of a book you have never read or examined in any detail.

You got your opinion about this book from another source, one you have consistently refused to provide.

Until you provide this source or acquire a copy of the book, this conversation is over.

Keep making silly little cracks about me moving if it amuses you and others. It doesn't change the facts of my situation.

[Marksbrother]

196. I've read plenty about the Bug Man's book

Enough to know that it's not worth reading. I've read about it in many different places on the Web and otherwise. I've probably
read more excerpts and reviews of it than many people who claim they've read the entire book. I only know of two people who
claim they've read the entire thing. Not counting you and the other guy here whose favorite words are "goofy" and "silly".

You said that you couldn't find the book because you're moving. Unless you have a big family, I assume it won't take you very
long to get unpacked and then you can check your copy of the book and report back to us.

[Bolo Boffin]

198. You didn't provide your source. You didn't provide the quote.

This conversation is over.

[Marksbrother]

199. Remember to check the book & report back

BTW, you did say that you had read it, correct? How's that move coming along? Finished yet?

[SDuderstadt]

206. Why should we take you seriously...

after you falsely claimed Bugliosi admitted hiring ''ghostwriters'' to write his book, when you can't even be truthful about the definition of ''ghostwriter''?

[Marksbrother]

249. Because I'm honest. Bug Man DID use ghostwriters.

You just needed an elastic definition of that word so that you could pretend/rationalize/spin.

[SDuderstadt]

209. Dude...since you apparently only read CT nonsense...

I don't think anyone would be surprised that someone else told you what to think about Bugliosi. I also find it laughable that you apparently think you can "win the debate" by calling a highly respected former prosecutor and reknowned author as "the Bug Man" and, in fact, it's rather childish on your part.

[Marksbrother]

248. Only nonsense I read is from you & other True Believers.

[MrMickeysMom]

239. ...

:popcorn:

[SDuderstadt]

179. Yeah, dude, I do...

Let me remind you of something...it's YOUR fucking claim and YOUR burden of proof. YOU produce the quote that supposedly proves your claim and quit playing games. This is getting old fast.

[Marksbrother]

182. Aren't you home yet?

Unless you work two shifts, you should have had plenty of time to get home and get out that book, especially since you're and
bolo boffin are so concerned, not with the substance of the book, which is worthless, rather with what you thought was a good
angle to dismiss criticism of the fact that The Bug Man had a lttle "help" writing it.

First, you tried to make it sound like I didn't know what I was talking about. You did that by demanding to know if I had "even
read it". When that didn't work, I said that since you claim to have the book, and since you're so concerned about the minor issue
of using ghost writers, why don't you look in your own copy of the book.

Your excuse was that you don't "tote it back and forth to work". Okay. Fair enough. Not that anyone had suggested that you do.
Besides, as someone else pointed out, you were posting from your job, presumably - at least that's what you implied - so, it
was reasonable to expect that your book was at home.

Next, you appeared to have googled the issue, and posted what was found on one of the hits you got. I say that, because I believe
I read the exact same one.

That brings us to day two, and STILL you're dancing away from that book which I'm beginning to believe you've never read and don't own, either.

Well, we know from bolo boffin that he DOES own it. He said so. But, unfortunately, he didn't have access to HIS copy either!
He's in the middle of moving and it's in a box and he doesn't know where it is. Maybe he'll be kind of enough to let us know
whenever he finds it. Hope he doesn't own a dog that likes to eat books.

[SDuderstadt]

192. Dude....YOU made the claim.....YOU have the burden of proof...

YOU couldn't provide the excerpt where you claimed Bugliosi admitted using "ghostwriters" for a simple reason. It doesn't exist. If it does, please provide it. On the page that you cited, Bugliosi does acknowledge help from Dale Meyers and Fred Haines. If you'd bother to read the definition of "ghostwriter" that I provided you, merely supplying assistance in the writing doesn't amount to being a "ghostwriter". This is just more of your utter bullshit.

Next time you have a claim to prove, please prove it yourself. Why you would devote so much time and attention to something you're wrong about is beyond me.

[Marksbrother]

200. My name is Marksbrother. Stop calling me "Dude"

I consider that an insult. It's disrespectful and should be a violation of DU forum rules if it isn't.

[Bolo Boffin]

201. Alert it if you're serious. n/t

[Marksbrother]

202. Is that what you would do in the same situation?

Based on experience, I'd say yes, but I'll wait for what you have to say.

[SDuderstadt]

203. Take it up with the moderators...

it's a commonly used term to address someone. And, my calling you dude is certainly not as important as your blatant misrepresentation of the facts.

[Marksbrother]

204. Thanks, but I didn't ask for your advice.

[SDuderstadt]

211. No one cares, dude....

As I said before, take it up with the moderators.

[MrMickeysMom]

240. Wait...

... Didn't you alert the mod?

Oh, maybe the mod won't agree ... with you, that is.

[Marksbrother]

242. You must be a mind reader! EOM

[Ghost in the Machine]

180. So, you're at work?

Why are you stealing your boss's money by posting here instead of doing the work you're getting paid to do?

Oh.... wait a minute here....

[Octafish]

185. One man's dream job...

...is another man's plausible deniability.

[Marksbrother]

187. Octafish testifying!

Very good. Thanks.

[Bolo Boffin]

191. Does Octafish know that you're a no-plane advocate?

Or is Octafish not concerned with such a crazy belief as long as he believes you're giving people like me grief?

[Marksbrother]

194. I feel your pain.

Hope you feel better soon.

[Bolo Boffin]

207. You imagine my pain.

Please stop.

[Marksbrother]

213. Thanks

Find that book yet?

[MrMickeysMom]

241. You are a pain...

that won't stop.

[Bolo Boffin]

259. Take some facts, evidence, and logical arguments

and see if you feel better about me in the morning.

[MrMickeysMom]

260. I feel fine now with my fact finding, and whatever evidence has been left...

...As for logic, I see little evidence of that in your part of your discussing 911, when you aren't busy not discussing single payer.

Maybe your logic would start lining up better over SP, should you ever choose to discuss what your signature line mentions.

[defendandprotect]

237. Needless to say, Gerald Ford was also an able co-conspirator in the JFK assassiantion . . .

helping to try to move the back wound up so that the public could be confused
into thinking that a bullet "went thru" the president's body and into Connally's.

No such thing happened --

The neck wound was a wound of ENTRY -- with NO OUTLET as confirmed at autopsy.
The back wound was a wound of ENTRY - with NO OUTLET as confirmed at autopsy.
Further, the back wound was in the area of JFK's right shoulder blade and. . .

that wound was made at a 45 degree downward angle!

Also see McDuff film pointing to the head wound as being in the right temple.

Meanwhile . . . all of this information was known by and available to our corporate-
press which also makes them complicit in these assassinations.

[Marksbrother]

243. Two more points about "Jerry"

1. He led a movement to try and get then S. Ct. Chief Justice Warren impeached. Earned him points with right wingers.

2. His "work" on behalf of the Cover Up Commission earned him the bones needed should a future Silent Coup result in

the removal from office of yet ANOTHER president and a "safe", reliable replacement is needed.

[Octafish]

245. Here's evidence of Ford's duplicity, to put covering up treason nicely.

Gaeton Fonzi said the physical evidence, alone, is evidence for conspiracy.



The shirt President Kennedy wore in Dallas



The jacket President Kennedy wore in Dallas

Here's the story of why Ford's, eh, change makes a difference:

Gerald Ford forced to admit the Warren Report fictionalized

By MIKE FEINSILBER
The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (July 2) - Thirty-three years ago, Gerald R. Ford took pen in
hand and changed - ever so slightly - the Warren Commission's key sentence
on the place where a bullet entered John F. Kennedy's body when he was
killed in Dallas.

The effect of Ford's change was to strengthen the commission's conclusion
that a single bullet passed through Kennedy and severely wounded Texas
Gov. John Connally - a crucial element in its finding that Lee Harvey
Oswald was the sole gunman.

A small change, said Ford on Wednesday when it came to light, one intended
to clarify meaning, not alter history.

''My changes had nothing to do with a conspiracy theory,'' he said in a
telephone interview from Beaver Creek, Colo. ''My changes were only an
attempt to be more precise.''

But still, his editing was seized upon by members of the conspiracy
community, which rejects the commission's conclusion that Oswald acted
alone.

''This is the most significant lie in the whole Warren Commission
report,'' said Robert D. Morningstar, a computer systems specialist in New
York City who said he has studied the assassination since it occurred and
written an Internet book about it.

The effect of Ford's editing, Morningstar said, was to suggest that a
bullet struck Kennedy in the neck, ''raising the wound two or three
inches. Without that alteration, they could never have hoodwinked the
public as to the true number of assassins.''

SNIP...

Ford's changes tend to support the single-bullet theory by making a
specific point that the bullet entered Kennedy's body ''at the back of his
neck'' rather than in his uppermost back, as the commission staff
originally wrote.

SNIP...

The staff of the commission had written: ''A bullet had entered his back
at a point slightly above the shoulder and to the right of the spine.''

Ford suggested changing that to read: ''A bullet had entered the back of
his neck at a point slightly to the right of the spine.''

The final report said: ''A bullet had entered the base of the back of his
neck slightly to the right of the spine.''

CONTINUED...

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/ford.html

It's clear what happened on November 22, 1963: The President was removed by the War Party.

[SDuderstadt]

246. What is the specific headline of...

Feinsilber's article and why do I get the impression that both you and ''What really happened'' are misrepresenting it? Did Feinsilber say that Ford was forced to admit the WC Report was fictionalized or did you or WRH put that in there? If either of you did, why are you trying to deliberately mislead the reader into thinking that is the AP article's headline?

[Marksbrother]

247. Why did you deliberately ignore what the post is about?

Substance, dude. Have some. TODAY.

[SDuderstadt]

250. Why do you deliberately ignore me when I say...

I'm done with your nonsense, dude?

[Marksbrother]

253. Why do True Believers ignore substance when they can't refute it

I'm done with your goofy, silly nonsense, dude yourself.

[SDuderstadt]

255. NOW, you're getting the picture!

Since I won't waste any more time with your nonsense, you can try to trick someone else into playing your silly games. The ''pedicure for my dog'' was a perfect excample. Bye, dude.

[Marksbrother]

256. Are you in a contest to win a new truck?

Is that it?

[defendandprotect]

251. Thank you -- I've also found that the CIA was contributing to Gerald Ford's campaign funds . . .

some of that info came out when Wm. Buckley died --

The CIA collected a lot of right-wing money -- they didn't care from where -- KKK, whatever.
And, they were financing right-wing Senators/Reps -- two of them named were Rep. Gerald J. Ford
and Sen. Strom Thurmond.

Don't know if we'll get any more names.

But, in other words, the CIA was doing here what it was doing all around the globe --
keeping the right-wing in power - keeping progressives/liberals out of office . . .

and I presume carrying out assassinations here as they did in other countries!

[Octafish]

252. What they do overseas shows what they're capable of doing at home.

What was it Kissinger said about Chile? Oh, yeh. Here it is from Third World Traveler's excellent resource...

"The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves...I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people."

-- Henry Kissinger, commenting on Chile prior to Augusto Pinochet's U.S.-supported, CIA-facilitated military coup against Chile's democratically-elected President Salvador Allende.

The one I heard was targeted for removal -- via the ballot box -- was Sen. Frank Church.
All Frank did was investigate the above, as well as understand what the NSA-CIA-MIC was capable of "accomplishing."



Frank Church and the Abyss of Warrantless Wiretapping

[Marksbrother]

254. True Believers don't seem interested in any of this. Why?

Has anyone else noticed that True Believers avoid issues and ideas about the CIA and their accomplishments (sic)?

I can only imagine why. I can't really give an opinion.

[defendandprotect]

261. First, I think Americans have been poorly informed about what our CIA has been

doing around the world . . .
I think that Michael Moore's film had some impact on that --
it was the film before SICKO -- can't think of the name at the moment.

And, then I think it is very hard to think about things going on which so defy
common sense -- which are so suicidal. It's difficult to accept that our government
would be engaged in such stupidities.

But, I remember a quote from a woman who was a native of the Bikini Islands and it
stays with me -- it's impossible to forget. She said this AFTER the US had dropped
nuclear bombs on her home -- the Bikini Islands . . .

"Americans are really smart about really stupid things."

Also, I think people don't like to much think about having been cheated or outsmarted
by people who have ruined our planet -- air, water, soil - our futures.
It's very difficult to talk to young people about these things . . . especially people
with young children. It's a reality they find hard to accept.

And, lastly, even among those of us who do recognize much of this to be true . . .
it's difficult to feel as though you have fought against it sufficiently. Who has?

[Octafish]

262. My guess is that some minds are closed to new information...

... and will do whatever it takes to reinforce existing beliefs.

Others want to continue running along the same old path, secure in the knowledge that their own government would never do such a thing. I have relatives who fit in this category who are veterans, one of whom was serving on active duty during the assassination in Dallas.

A small number, it seems, enjoy doing the work of reinforcing the government line, no matter how inaccurate, misleading or false. They, the record shows, may be under orders.