Sound, shockwaves and transformer explosions

[jberryhill]

Imagine you are situated near the bottom of a 100 story building.

A few floors below you is a transformer vault which distributes electricity through the building.

Now, up on the 90th floor, an event occurs which causes a massive electrical fault and a shock wave transmitted through the structure of the building which causes a sudden massive discontinuity in the power circuits and also delivers a mechanical shock to the transformers.

What are you going to hear first? The sound of the impact ninety floors up or the sound of the transformers popping three floors below you?

If you are not familiar with a transformer explosion, here's an example:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2674646408572574875

[MervinFerd]

1. Were there transformers in the Titanic?

I -don't- think so.

Those explosions had to be bombs.

[jberryhill]

2. No, the Titanic Electrical System was 110 Volts DC

It wasn't an AC system.

In fact, the hazards of transformers were one of the arguments that Edison used against the Westinghouse AC system.

(quick summary for non-nerds - transformers are used to kick up or down the voltage in an AC power system. While you can do the same thing now with solid-state devices, changing the voltage in a DC system in 1912 was a complicated electromechanical mess. So you picked your voltage and you ran on it, if you were running DC.)

Now there WAS a transformer associated with the Marconi Set (radio transmitter) to produce a 5 KW transmitting signal, but that was not a power transformer of the type used in power distribution.

[MervinFerd]

25. I've always heard that DC transformers were prone to explosions.

That's why it is better to use AC batteries.

[jschurchin]

3. I have a question.

How many transformer explosions have you personally witnessed?

[jberryhill]

5. Two

One of them was a couple of weeks ago. Scared the living shit out of me. Both from the same crappy designed and located substation near where I live.

If by "witnessed" you include a videotape a relative of mine made after the Northridge quake, then add three more.

Are you suggesting they don't happen or something?

[The Lone Groover]

4. This is made up bollocks and you know it.

Let's all play the "imagine" game.

Imagine the transformers have surge protection.

[jberryhill]

6. Oh We Can Imagine Better Than That

Surge protection? Oh, boy...

Here, watch 'em go sequentially in Iowa:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWnifGqgBg


Do they have surge protection in San Francisco?

http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_231131708.html

An explosion in an underground PG&E utility chamber in downtown San Francisco sent manhole covers flying, shattered store windows, and started fires Friday. Two people were injured.

Hmmm... guess not.

How about in Bakersfield?

http://www.turnto23.com/news/9156618/detail.html

BAKERSFIELD -- Some 47,000 customers were without power after a transformer explosion at the abandoned PG&E power plant at Coffee Road and Rosedale Highway.

A spokeswoman with PG&E said crews were working on a transformer when it exploded at about 3:30 p.m. That caused several other circuits to fail, creating a mass blackout


Nope... how about LA?

http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/16/california.quake.04/index.html?eref=sitesearch


The earthquake was felt across hundreds of miles of Southern California and as far away as Yuma, Arizona. Between 5,000 and 10,000 people lost power in Los Angeles, and there were reports of transformer explosions.

Nope, none there.

Imagine Lone Groover has no clue about "surge protection" on HV lines.

Lone, this is what it looks like when you open an HV circuit in order to provide "surge protection":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uun3ooPaNFU

You think that's rare? Here's another HV shutoff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAmP-CnBT9k

Here's another transformer explosion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YY7TGnSaHw

Here's another transformer explosion.... THIS ONE IS GREAT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPhqTGiyZ0Y

Boom - Another Utility Company that needs to hire Lone Groover:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHSBph71GX8

Of course, a good old ground fault alone can be pretty loud:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWDsjch4XTs&mode=related&search=

Or a run-of the mill utility pole fire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tCuzys-1P8&mode=related&search=

Hey Lone, what happened the HV "surge protectors" in this multiple transformer explosion in Illinois:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7cHgAVVNck

You better get out to Tulsa and fix their system too, dude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9WIbEOMl0k

Lone, you are out of your depth here.

[Bolo Boffin]

7. Hammer, Don't Hurt Them. n/t

[The Lone Groover]

8. Yes surge protection...

...lets imagine they had them.

Let's imagine that two of the most important buildings in the world had surge protection on their transformers in case of unexpected events like a terrorist attacks (who could imagine that?) "traditional" explosions or fire.

Lets imagine the explosions were caused by bombs.

Let's imagine George Bush in prison for crimes against the American people.

Lets imagine anything we like.

Imagination is a wonderful thing.

[jberryhill]

9. Transformer vault (also called manhole) explosions are fairly common place in Manhattan

Hey, you remember the 1993 bombing of the WTC?

Guess what the firefighters thought when they heard a report of an explosion in lower Manhattan:

http://www.fdnewyork.com/wtc.asp

February 26, 1993. It started like most other days. A 4 A.M. wake up, coffee and a buttered roll while driving to work at the Manhattan Central Office. At 12:18 P.M., lunch was being served when we received a call via a street alarm box at the corner of West & Liberty Streets. At the same time Engine Company 10, whose quarters are across the street from the World Trade Center, called us via radio and reported a possible transformer vault explosion on West Street near the Trade Center.

Transformer vault (also called manhole) explosions are fairly common place in Manhattan, especially during wet weather. They're highly visible and normally generate numerous telephone calls to the Central Office. We didn't think this one was going to be any different. When Engine 10 advised us by radio they had a working fire in the Trade Center, we thought the transformer vault was located within the basement of the complex. Not a routine event, but still,it's only a transformer vault we thought.

Omigod... Firefighters thinking something might blow up, and be a "fairly common" event in Manhattan.

Just imagine if there were any natural gas lines down there. They can't possibly ever go BANG. That would be "made up bollocks".

No, the "dustification beams", "computer generated fake airplanes", "secret demolition crews working at Larry Silverstein's direction", yes Lone, that's not "made up bollocks" - those things are real.

[The Lone Groover]

10. "Just imagine "

I'm imagining lots of things.

I'm imagining that people took measures to make sure that this "common place" occurance didn't happen in the basement of two of the tallest buildings in the world.

Imagine that.

[jberryhill]

11. Imagination is a great aid for masturbation

But it doesn't help much with HV power design.

I imagine you live in a world that doesn't have to deal with the practical realities of electrical consumption in large office towers.

Engineers do their best to "make sure" that transformer explosions don't happen. They do the best they can everywhere. Still, they happen quite a bit, and they sure as hell happen when something ELSE catastrophically fails.

Why would they want "special" protection for the WTC transformers that is not available at, say, the PGE location where the woman was critically injured by hot oil in an explosion in downtown San Francisco.

You can't have lots of AC power and not have transformer explosions.

People take measures to avoid auto accidents, yet tens of thousands of people die in them in the US every year.

You are going to tell me that 9/11 was some magical day that involved major disruptions of power systems to several major office buildings, and yet all of the transformers were protected by a magical imaginary device known only to you, such that there were no explosions of the type that are common in rainstorms.

That's not imagination. That's lunacy.

[The Lone Groover]

12. I'm imagining...

...that the WTC was more important in the eyes of the rich people who work in a building - the subject of previous terrorist attacks - than a no place in downtown San Francisco.

Are you suggesting that no one look special precautions against "common place" explosions in the basements of two of the tallest buildings in the world.

Why... that would be incompetant...

..I would imagine.

[jberryhill]

13. You do not understand the difference between fantasy and reality

and you do not understand that power systems are built from code-spec equipment. No more, no less. Rich people work in San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Washington DC, and lots of other places.

Please run, don't walk, to Chicago and apply your imaginary expertise to save the rich people in the Sears Tower.

And get those rich people onto unsinkable ships (oh, they tried that already), and airplanes that can't fail (ever look at the ticket price on the Concorde before it, uh, crashed).

[The Lone Groover]

14. You know the way the world works...

...I imagine you're definitely safer in Air Force One then in a Nigerian Airways Cargo Plane.

And I imagine you imagine no one could have imagined the risk of transformers blowing up in a common place way in the basements of two of the tallest buildings in the world, a building previously targeted by terrorists and housing a good deal of the worlds financial information.

Ah.. shit happens. I imagine.

I imagine you have no idea how the transformers were protected in WTC.

[jberryhill]

16. "A good deal of the world's financial information"? WTF?

They were large, yet still pretty mundane in terms of tenants, office buildings.

I imagine that having three degrees in electrical engineering makes me a little resistant to imagineering of this kind.

[The Lone Groover]

17. Qualifications mean nothing...

...ask any OCTer who doesn't like what a scientist, engineer or General says about 9/11.

[The Lone Groover]

15. OK enough of the imagining bollocks...

...here's the reality.

You admit there were explosions in the basement now. Alleluia!

You don't know what caused them... BS imaginings are not proof.

You don't know that it wasn't caused by a bomb.

Some witnesses said a truck exploded in the basement.

There is enough witness accounts to warrant an investigation into secondary ground attacks on the WTC on 9/11.

Why was no investigation ever carried out? Why was the evidence hastily destroyed?

Criminal - that is the reality.

[MervinFerd]

30. Bollocks, indeed.

[The Lone Groover]

37. Which bit MervinFerd me old mucka.

Which bit was bollocks?

Was it the bit where I said we should properly investigate the basement explosions to rule out secondary terrorist attacks in light of reports that a truck had exploded in the basement?

Perhaps you think my assertion that the transformers were surge protected is bollocks?

Maybe you think I'm talking sense and the others are talking bollocks.

Do you know what bollocks is?

[jberryhill]

43. These are facts - not imagination

http://research.unc.edu/endeavors/win2005/9_11.php


In addition to the 2,749 people killed at the World Trade Center (WTC) on September 11, how many more deaths and disabilities will result from the toxic pollution released in the city? Books have been written to add up all the sources and amounts of pollutants, including asbestos, silica, lead, volatile organic compounds, polychlorinated biphenyls, dioxins, and mercury.

Scientists from Carolina and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) have recently added a piece to the puzzle by finding a way to measure the levels of chemical compounds — polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) — generated by the combustion of fuels and other organic matter. PAHs were created by the WTC explosions involving about 91,000 liters of jet fuel; 490,000 liters of transformer oil; 380,000 liters of heating and diesel oil; and 100,000 tons of organic debris

Here are two witnesses who believed they heard transformer explosions:


http://www.nyjournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20010912/SPECIAL01/109120307/-1/SPECIAL0106
Kelly Badillo, in the lobby of Building One at the time of the attack, said he began having flashbacks to the 1993 bombing.

"When the first plane hit, it felt like a transformer explosion, and you felt the pressure like when somebody grabs you real hard," Badillo said. "Then the second plane hit, and that's when all hell broke loose."



http://www.flcv.com/wtc1vict.html

91ST FLOOR Mike McQuaid, survivor

I hear this explosion, like a transformer below. What the hell was that? The whole place shook. The hallway started filling up with smoke.


Okay, you have thousands of gallons of transformer oil, and people who believe they heard transformer explosions. That settles it - there were bombs.

[LARED]

19. Are you a member of the PG school of technology?

Surge Protection. Yeah, that's the ticket. :sarcasm:

[The Lone Groover]

20. Yes surge protection.

What's your problem.

Are you saying the transformers in the basements of WTC were unprotected?

There is definitely a failure of imagination here.

Well.. at least the OCTers are now admitting explosions in the basement. Perhaps an investigation is required to rule out a secondary terrorist ground attack.

Perhaps you can't imagine why that's necessary.

[LARED]

21. My problem is simply

I get a kick out of folks that throw out easy answers to hard questions. especially when just by their statements it is clear they do not have a clue what they are talking about.

Of course the electrical distribution system in the WTC was protected. If you knew anything about electrical protection you would know it is not a perfect system that functions under all conditions. TO grossly simplify, protection systems engage in a race against time as a fault condition develops. Sometimes they lose the race and somethings they fail to function properly.

To prove my point, what happens if you dead short a simple electrical switch in your house with a screw driver (by accident, do not do this to test this theory). It's protected by a breaker somewhere, but you still could be killed or maybe just create a nice small "explosion." The breaker will trip, but the damage is already done.

Also I do not think any so called OCT'er has admitted to explosions in the basement as a precursor to the impacts, as it is pretty clear there were fuel explosion, and all sort of things that may have blown up on the fires. Electrical transformers may have be one of those things.

[The Lone Groover]

22. If that's what you want to imagine.. its up to you.

I want to imagine an investigaion into those explosions so that a secondary terrorist attack is ruled out (and other possibilities).

Do you?

I didn't start the imagining in this thread.

I'm glad you agree that the transformers in the WTC were in fact surge protected. Its a pretty tall building to have "common place" explosions going off in the basement. I imagine it was someones job to keep an eye on that.

I also imagine that the more expensive surge protectors are better than the cheaper ones and the really expensive ones are excellent? Or are they all the same?

[LARED]

23. You're one smart cookie

You can see right through the surge protection facade the OCT is throwing up. You're probably sitting there having a good old belly laugh about this lame attempt. Let's be honest, there's no way a transformer could have faulted or exploded on 9/11.

Right?

[The Lone Groover]

26. Do you have any proof about the transformers?

No you don't - only imaginings - which is less then the "conspiracy theroists" have.

But let's face it - The WTC transformers were surge protected - and well protected at that. Every precaution against "common place" explosions in the basement of two of the tallest buildings in the world is going to have been taken.

There are however witness accounts of a truck exploding in the basement.

Maybe an investigation is needed into possible secondary terrorist attacks?

Oops - the evidence has gone.

Oh dear, what a shame, never mind - move along.

PS. Yes I am a smart cookie. Thanks very much.

[LARED]

27. So I understand correctly

you do not believe a transformer could have exploded in any of the WTC buildings that day as they were surge protected.

[The Lone Groover]

31. Perhaps we should investigate instead of imaginate.

How about that.

But anyway - do you think the basements of two of the tallest buildings in the world would need special precautions against "common place" explosions?

There are shit surge protectors and there are great surge protectors - which did the WTC have? No imagining now.

Explosions were definitely undesirable in the WTC. Definitely.

[LARED]

33. I think you are correct

Perhaps you can start this investigation by having you school me in the difference between shit surge protectors and great surge protectors for large commercial medium voltage electrical distribution systems.

I humbly await my lesson.

[The Lone Groover]

34. You don't think...

...there is a difference in the quality of surge protection on the market?

All surge protection is the same?

Eh?

[LARED]

35. No I know you don't have a freaking clue

what you are talking about. And was seeing how long you would continue your farce.

[The Lone Groover]

36. Well you don't seem able to answer my questions...

...about surge protection.

As in all things - you gets what you pays for.

There's poor surge protection and there's the dogs bollocks surge protection.

But you know that.

I imagine that the some of the tallest buildings in the world wouldn't want "common place" explosions happening in their basement.

What do you imagine?

As I said - i didn't start the imaginings here - if you imagine hard enough 9/11 never happened.

[LARED]

38. You're not asking the right questions

that why you are not getting the answers you want. Here's a clue, surge protection is not even the issue, that's why I asked if you went to the PG school of technology.

[The Lone Groover]

39. But it is an issue.

Thanks anyway.

[LARED]

40. I suggest you look up what a surge suppressor actually

is designed to do.

Then look up how electrical faults are handled.

[The Lone Groover]

46. Somehow I don't think...

...big "common place" explosions in the basement of two of the tallest buildings in the world was of much concern to the people responsible for maintaining the building.
I think they had that one covered - don't you?
Thanks anyway.

[LARED]

49. Certainly the folks maintaining the building

did inspections and testing of electrical distribution equipment on a regular basis. Insurance folks would require that. You see insurance folks know all about those common place explosions, they reduce the risk by making sure proper design and inspection is performed.

[The Lone Groover]

50. yeah...

..but the basement of two of the tallest buildings in the world.

If I was in the insurance industry I'd want to make sure that that "common place" explosions didn't happen at all.

I'd want to be sure that electrical kick-backs weren't going to damage the foundations of this building.

There is some shit hot surge protection out there - what do you think was in the WTC?

[LARED]

52. Three points

There is no such thing as zero risk, so the "didn't happen at all" is on no ones radar.

Is there a language barrier? Surge protection is the wrong issue. Surge protection does not control electrical faults that make things go boom. Go do some homework or ask questions.


The equipment in the WTC was undoubtedly built to the requirement of the NEC, and what ever building codes were in use at the time.

[The Lone Groover]

53. So the transformers were...

...not protected against kick-back surges?

Surge protection does not control electrical faults that make things go boom.

It doesn't? Really? Shit I've wasted my money.

You going to get pedantic about surge protection and explosion protection?

Also... you have yet to prove any electrical fault affecting the transformers at all on 9/11.

Did they have primary, secondary and perhaps tertiary protection in WTC.. you have yet to prove that any problem on the 80th floor would have a massive effect in the basement.

You only have imaginings.

[LARED]

54. Pedantic? Not really

We are simply talking about two different things. You just don't know it.

[petgoat]

58. Good work Groover!

Some people on these threads claim exalted technical
credentials they don't bother to demonstrate.

Obviously surge protection in the WTC was not simply a
technical issue, but a marketing issue. The psychology
of workers in a tall building has been studied (we must
assume) by the real estate interests. The view leads
to expansive thoughts, but taking a two-minute elevator
ride to work in the morning makes one feel kind of a
hostage.

That being the case, the proposition that the tower powers
specified fail-safe transformers seems reasonable.

[LARED]

60. fail-safe transformers ??

Never heard of them. Please elaborate on how they work and who makes them.

[jberryhill]

61. When you are talking about stuff in the HV range - 5 kV and up

Then "Surge Protection" pretty much amounts to allowing a ground fault to blow a transformer.

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Cruthers.txt

"Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse. So we instructed that a collapse area -- (Q. A collapse zone?) -- Yeah -- be set up and maintained so that when the expected collapse of 7 happened, we wouldn't have people working in it. There was considerable discussion with Con Ed regarding the substation in that building and the feeders and the oil coolants and so on. And their concern was of the type of fire we might have when it collapsed." - Chief Cruthers

That "coolant" is the flammable transformer oil.

[The Lone Groover]

64. Yeah... but surely the WTC had a line of defense...

...so that undesirable explosions in the basement of two of the tallest buildings in world didn't occur.

So you have proof that electrical problems 80 floors above have a direct effect on the transformers in the basement?

No secondary or tertiary protection in the way?

Just imaginings.

We can all imagine.

[LARED]

18. Not only can electrical faults in transformer provide a significant

blast, but the oil in a transformer will become a BLEVE without too much effort

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=BLEVE

[quickesst]

24. Just an observation...

A transformer blew in front of my house several years ago. The replacement blew also. After several hours of work, they replaced it with a third transformer. Both times the transformer blew, I was reminded of an M-80 firecracker, maybse a little louder. Hardly the type of explosion heard by the witnesses. Just an ear-witness observation. Thanks.
quickesst

[petgoat]

28. Five Years After the Fact You're Trying to Explain Away Something...

no official would admit all this time.

It's too bad the 9/11 Commission didn't include William
Rodriguez's story in their narrative, and too bad that
the officials didn't take hundreds of thousands of photos
as the ground zero pile was deconstructed, and too bad
they couldn't show pictures of the exploded transformers.

The lack of evidence for your thesis makes it less interesting
than the coverup it crawls out from.

[MervinFerd]

29. Ahhh. The exploding transformer CoverUp!

Clearly the manufacturers of transformers do not want the public to know that their transformers can explode.

When will we ever learn the Truth?

[The Lone Groover]

32. How do we know...

..that the explosions were not a secondary terrorist attack considering some of the witness accounts?

[jberryhill]

42. Which witnesses saw bombs?

Witnesses have stated that they heard explosions. In an urban disaster, lots of things make a loud bang - gas, electrical equipment, etc.

The energy contained in the battery back-up system for the Fuji bank computing center alone was massive. That energy had to go somewhere.

Look at this battery bank:



By the way, those are the kinds of thing that were located on the floor from which molten materials was seen pouring out of the building.

That sort of equipment is all over the place in office complexes. Large stores of energy which, when suddenly disrupted, have to do something with that energy.

[The Lone Groover]

45. Maybe I imagined some news reports of...

...exploding trucks in the basement.
There's so much imagination in this thread it's hard to keep track.
Actually I don't think I imagined it... or did I...

Perhaps it should be investigated to rule out the possibility.

[jberryhill]

47. Do you have a link to a source

of someone who saw a truck explode, or saw a bomb.

Interestingly, when a truck DID explode in the basement in 1993, firefighters assumed it was a transformer explosion.

[The Lone Groover]

51. Hey that's interesting...

...so people can confuse transformer explosions with truck bomb explosions.

But obviously the '93 WTC truck bomb is the one we know really happened as opposed to a 9/11 WTC transformer explosion which only exists in OCTers imagination.

How do we know it wasn't a truck bomb on 9/11?

Where do I find the part of the investigation that rules it out?

[jberryhill]

41. The evidence has been posted here

Are you saying you haven't seen the video of the people standing on the street when something goes BANG?

That is evidence of a transformer explosion or other piece of electrical equipment failing.

What makes you think that a loud BANG is insufficient evidence? These devices were known to be there, and they explode when unexpected thing happen.

[The Lone Groover]

44. Has the explosion ever been investigated?

Nope.
All you got is imagining.

[petgoat]

57. Instead of explaining the reports of explosions by investigating

the transformers, the officials intimidated and suppressed
the reports of explosions.

Maybe us CD theorists are all wet. I don't think so, but I'm
prepared to stand up before Congress and say "we were wrong,
and here's why."

One of the reasons why is that the officials have destroyed
evidence and suppressed evidence. That being the case, any
claim from their side that they're coming clean after five
years must be regarded with suspicion.

[Laurier]

48. How could they know which version of Rodriguez' story to include?

He's given so many different versions of his story (and it keeps getting better and better over time) that his testimony would be considered unreliable by any competent trier of fact.

[quicknthedead]

63. Rodriguez is backed up by the evidence: seismic vs. radar data

http://www.studyof911.com/articles/mirrored/craigfurlong/

One World Trade, September 11, 2001
American Airlines Flight 11 “impact” time:
8:46:30 UTC, per LDEO seismic data (National Institute of Standards and Technology, 2005)
8:46:40 UTC, per FAA last primary radar contact (9/11 Commission Final Report, 2004)

Q- What caused the 8:46:30 seismic event that occurred 10 seconds before the actual air crash?
A- The only possibility is huge explosions, as corroborated by many witnesses at the time.
Q- Who caused these explosions before the plane hit?

Notes:
In 2004, the 9/11 Commission avoided addressing the earlier seismic time (which had been attributed in error by Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University, originally in 2001 as plane “impact”).
In 2005, NIST avoided addressing the 9/11 Commission’s later time for the aircraft’s actual impact.
Both the 9/11 Commission and NIST avoided addressing the many witnesses who testified of explosions in the sub-basements before the plane crashed.

Summary:
This precision data has yet to be refuted. It is from the two highest governmental entities charged with looking into what happened on 9/11. Both declared these times as accurate, and in doing so corroborate William Rodriguez and the many witnesses the morning of 9/11 who experienced explosions in the sub-basements of WTC1 before American Airlines Flight 11 struck the building. This is indicting evidence of governmental coverup, and thus implication of complicity.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

55. Was this in the NIST report for the Twin Towers? If so, can you please post a link? eom

[The Lone Groover]

56. You know the answer...

...but seriously.

We have explosions in the basement - undeniable at long last.

We have a previous truck bomb incident in 1993 in the basement that was apparently mistook for a transformer explosion.

Shouldn't this this be cleared up to rule out the possibility of a secondary terrorist attack (or anything more sinister) instead of pure imaginings?

I think it should.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

59. But then we know how serious this government is about protecting us. Look at the unguarded nuke

plants and chemical factories.....

There is an excellent documentary shown on HBO called Indian Point. It's about the Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant, which is about 15 minutes from where I live by car. The doc was done by Rory Kennedy and Robert Kennedy, Jr., her brother, was in most of it.
It discussed how easy it would be for terrorists to create havoc there. In fact, the two planes that hit the WTC passed Indian Point on their way down the Hudson.

Here is a link to the site at HBO
http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/indianpoint/

And on edit...yes, I do know the answer and what bothers me the most is, that what happened on 9/11 was never investigated as the crime it really was. Evidence was shipped overseas in a heartbeat. The crime scene was compromised.

The Whitewash Commssion's mission was not to investigate but to find ways of it never happening again. The problem with that (beside the fact that Zelikow had his filthy hands on the steering wheel), is that if the facts were skewed in the first place, and indeed if it was an inside job, the recommendations of the 9/11 mean nothing.

[jberryhill]

62. Looking for link, but have this quote so far

"WTC 7 contained 10 transformers at street level, 12 transformers on the 5th floor, and 2 dry transformers on the 7th floor." - FEMA report