What if David Lindorff is wrong?

[Bryan Sacks]

Answer: so what? When there is a cover-up, people will speculate as to the reason for the cover-up. It isn't fair to ask for a coherent theory of what has been covered up. Who can see inside a closed fist? It's enough to see a closed fist that won't be opened to imply guilt.

If he is right, of course, we have MORE high treason. This story has been around for a long time now. It regards the origin of the Niger forgeries.

http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0306-38.htm

Now, have you heard anything about it recently? Probably not.

I posted it here to save the mods some work. It's a 'conspiracy theory', after all.

[wildbilln864]

1. good point!

:yourock:

Finding the truth about 911 is not wrong! :hi:

[greyl]

2. Fucking A. This is one of the stories that the so-called Truth Movement cares little about

and is being ignored in favor of chasing 'exciting' bullshit on video for hours on end.

Let me know when there are hundreds of web sites spawned from nigerforgerytruth.org and dozens of amateur movies with a huge gullible following alleging to be concerned with uncovering the truth about the Niger forgeries but which are actually full of titillating, spectacular, and distracting lies and misdirection. When that happens, it would mean that the Niger Forgery Truth Movement had severely compromised their own credibility, and, in the eyes of the public, the credibility of the entire anti-war movement for decades to come. It would mean that the Niger Forgery Truth Movement has been the anti-war movement’s Trojan Horse.

Tell me, do you think the average person sporting the 9/11 Truth flag cares much about this, let alone enough to be in a position to educate someone else about it?
Based on the threads in this forum, can there be any doubt that they don't?

Unfortunately, you aren't exactly showing a weakness in Nenonen's point.

[The Lone Groover]

3. It doesn't matter to 9/11 truth flag sporters.

Tell me, do you think the average person sporting the 9/11 Truth flag cares much about this,

Not personally at the moment but it looks very interesting. I never really followed this story, I sure I'm going to find out more though today...

But why it doesn't matter ...

JackRiddler wrote

They didn't schedule the wargames for September 11th. They didn't choose the scenarios that were run on that day. They didn't practice these scenarios repeatedly beforehand. They didn't keep Bush in a school for 45 minutes during the attacks, or make Myers and Rumsfeld pretend to be scarce. They didn't spontaneously reschedule Winfield's shift on the evening before the attack. They didn't stymie command response and sow confusion in the air defense and keep the interceptors occupied elsewhere. They didn't bury the dozen-plus prior warnings from foreign intelligence services, many of them highly specific. They couldn't kill the request for a Moussaoui search warrant, Dave Frasca did. They didn't put a yellow stickie over Atta's face and shut down the Able Danger program, after it discovered them, that was the Pentagon. They didn't arrange for a fake Atta to spook around Florida prior to his official arrival date of July 2000. They didn't insure that the Pentagon was hit, or that UA 93 was shot down by a missile. They played their role, and either they believed in it or they were just acting. And it doesn't matter.

People want real answers.

But you Greyl managed to turn this story into a slur on the 9/11 truth movement. Nice.

[greyl]

4. I know, that's the point.

When the supposedly most reasonable and thoughtful members of the so-called Truth Movement are farting around with controlled demolition bullshit, the movement has earned a good slurring.

[The Lone Groover]

5. I think not.

Have you been out beating the drum about this story lately? If you think it's so important then don't waste anytime here.

Or have you spent your time "farting about" slurring 9/11 questioners?

[greyl]

6. Well, that's just your flat opinion, isn't it?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=76384

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

7. That's because all of us who knew that lies were being created to go into this war are part of the

anti-war movement. The Niger forgeries are part of it.

I knew about the yellow cake forgeries before the war. There was enough online about their being discredited back then. I've read this account of the Niger papers about a year into the war and it just gets piled into all of the other lies.

If I were a filmmaker I'd do a documentary on the Neocons and PNAC. If America knew about their divine plan, Rebuilding America's Defenses, all hell would really break loose. Every now and then a politico will start to mention it but almost as an afterthought.
In fact, many of the 9/11 Truth Movement refer to "Rebuilding" because it is in that plan, the neocons mention, how a CATACLYSMIC EVENT Like Pearl Harbor would be able to set their plans into motion......
www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf n

And here is an account of the forgeries that was published in of all places, American Conservative Magazine. This magazine has done a great deal of reporting about the Neocons lies.

http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_11_07/feature.html

[greyl]

10. Maybe you and I, but definitely not all of us.

I knew about the forgeries before the war, too, and was talking about it. Look for a thread called "so-called OCTers arguing with idiots about the war". That hasn't stopped some extremely partisan Inside Job Cultists from accusing me and others of being right-wing shills because we argue against their favorite unreasonable conspiracy theories.

[The Lone Groover]

12. What..

..are your favorite "reasonable" conspiracy theories?
Do any of them impact the 911CR?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

13. What I said was all of who knew about the lies. Based on the track record of the neocons

to get what they want through machinations and lying, it is very easy to see how people think 9/11 was an inside job. I believe that it was but I don't buy into all of the theories. I need proof. The problem is, there really isn't enough physical evidence presented for public viewing to see that. What bothers me right now is that the Interim report by the NIST is being held here as a holy grail, when the report not only being incomplete, is only theory, in their own words. That at the time the report was written, they didn't even do the scientific experiments to prove their theories, Then you have the lead NIST official declare a year after the interim report say that they still can't get their arms around why 7 came down. That was about a year ago, and still no report.

There were though, enough pre-9/11 warnings and accounts of people who came forward prior to 9/11 that leads me to believe that it was an inside job. I believe Indira Singh. who had done studies on her job about PTech and how this terrorist funding group was involved with our highly sensitive defense system. I do believe Robert Wright, the FBI whistleblower who broke down crying during a press conference because his warnings to the higher ups in FBI were willfully ignored. I believe David Schippers, who after hearing what he heard by three FBI agents told Porter Goss and other lawmakers, about foreknowledge..and he too was ignored. Schippers btw was the head GOP counsel in the impeachment of Clinton. You would think that he would have been listened to.

I believe Sybil Edmonds. I believe Randy Glass, a DEA informant, who through his state senator, warned Bob Graham, in advance, in detail, that an attack was going to be made on the WTC. Graham never acknowledged this and had breakfast on the AM of 9/11 with Porter Goss and Gen. Mahmoud, head of Pakistan's ISI. Mahmoud was later discovered to have sent Atta $100,000 just before the attacks. 60 Minutes reported that Bin Laden was being treated on 9/10/2001 at a Pakistani Military Hospital. I believe that report. I also believe that people, who knew all the details of the war games and emergency games (in NYC), were involved with 9/11.

I do believe that Atta was far from the devout Muslim who would sacrifice his life for Bin Laden. Atta was also reportedly involved with cocaine in Florida.

I also do believe, that this administration, went to war with Iraq in cold blood, and didn't care about any of the casualties including the lives of our soldiers. And I believe that anyone that can have such disregard for human life could have very easily orchestrated 9/11. There was also reckless disregard for the lives of rescue workers, residents and people who worked by ground zero when the White House changed the EPA's statement and said it was safe to be in the area a week after the attacks. There are 1000s of people suffering from illnesses related to that, and several have since died. NYC was attacked twice in a week.

Did you know this? On that fateful day in September, Bush, while flying in the air on 9/11, dead bodies strewn somewhere below, had a photo op on Air Force One, and the photos were given as perks at a GOP fund raiser......

[HamdenRice]

15. And just what are those UNreasonable

theories supported by those who so "unfairly" accuse you?

This would be really interesting to know.

[The Lone Groover]

16. I'm more interested in the "reasonable" ones.

That will be interesting too.

[HamdenRice]

18. I am also but

the poster seems to conflate all skepticism of the 9/11 Commission report as UNreasonable. Since many of his critics are interested in what are presumably reasonable theories, I am interested in understanding what theories of his critics are UNreasonable.

But we rarely get this kind of parsing.

[The Lone Groover]

20. They always hint they have issues...

...but then never actually get to tell us what they are.

[mhatrw]

19. Nobody has told us "The Niger forgery changes everything!"

Nobody is using the Niger forgery to justify a never ending war against a noun.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

8. An Article Written About This That Appeared In American Conservative Magazine

From November 2005.

http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_11_07/feature.html

November 21, 2005 Issue
Copyright © 2005 The American Conservative

Forging the Case for War

Who was behind the Niger uranium documents?

by Philip Giraldi

From the beginning, there has been little doubt in the intelligence community that the outing of CIA officer Valerie Plame was part of a bigger story. That she was exposed in an attempt to discredit her husband, former ambassador Joseph Wilson, is clear, but the drive to demonize Wilson cannot reasonably be attributed only to revenge. Rather, her identification likely grew out of an attempt to cover up the forging of documents alleging that Iraq attempted to buy yellowcake uranium from Niger.

What took place and why will not be known with any certainty until the details of the Fitzgerald investigation are revealed. (As we go to press, Fitzgerald has made no public statement.) But recent revelations in the Italian press, most notably in the pages of La Repubblica, along with information already on the public record, suggest a plausible scenario for the evolution of Plamegate.

Information developed by Italian investigators indicates that the documents were produced in Italy with the connivance of the Italian intelligence service. It also reveals that the introduction of the documents into the American intelligence stream was facilitated by Undersecretary of Defense Doug Feith’s Office of Special Plans (OSP), a parallel intelligence center set up in the Pentagon to develop alternative sources of information in support of war against Iraq.

Continued at above link

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

9. Bryan, please post this in GD. I think it will stay posted there. I do recommend

that you do a search to include other articles written by others in the past. This is not a new account of the Niger forgeries.

[greyl]

11. I posted it in GD Politics a couple hours ago.

Here
It had been posted inside other Libby threads in GD before.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

14. Thank you! I just kicked and recommended it there. nt

[HamdenRice]

17. I don't understand the treason claim, though

There was a thread yesterday in GD about the definition of treason:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=354595

"Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." (Constitution)

"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war
against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and
comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason
and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five
years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and
shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States." (Statute)

The forgery scheme may be criminal, but it's difficult to see how it is treason, because it did not involve aiding an enemy of the US. It was working with allies, Italian and British intelligence, to carry out a propaganda operation in the US.

The suppression of Plame's WMD intelligence gathering operation arguably aided enemies of the US in acquiring technology or materials for nuclear proliferation, but in terms of criminal intent, it seems to be a byproduct of the propaganda operation.

That doesn't mean it was not illegal. For example levying aggressive war is illegal under international law, but you don't need the Niger forgeries to prove that.

I never understand how we, as a country, can focus on the minutiae crimes when much bigger crimes are staring us in the face.