10000 people and NASA

[CGowen]

The 9/11 conspiracy theory is back, in a much more virulent form, and normally sane people are being taken in by it: I am getting half a dozen earnest e-mails every day telling me I must see a film called Loose Change.

It has been around in various versions for almost two years, but it now seems to be gathering converts faster than ever.
.
.
.
The greater conspiracy theory, on the other hand, is just plain loony – and yet more and more people are falling for it in the West, where it was once the exclusive domain of people with counter-rotating eyeballs and poor personal hygiene.
.
.
.
The FBI was in on it, the CIA was in on it, the US Air Force was in on it (except, of course, those USAF personnel who were killed at the Pentagon), and North American Aerospace Defence Command was in on it (but they kept the Canadians in NORAD out of the loop.)

The security companies guarding the World Trade Centre were in on it, Mayor Rudy Giuliani was in on it, the Federal Aviation Administration was in on it, NASA was in on it, and the Pentagon was in on it.

At least 10,000 people were in on it. They had to be, or it couldn’t have worked. And more than five years later, not one of them has talked.

http://www.saobserver.net/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=29&cat=48&id=849149&more=

[Big Pappa]

1. And

don't forget all of the BBC, MSNBC, FOX, and CNN. Plus now we also have twin nuclear detonations with the addition of thermite.

[CGowen]

2. Ah ... Richard Porter (BBC)

Nobody told us what to say. There's no conspiracy involving missing tapes. There's no story here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/03/part_of_the_conspiracy_2.html


what an answer

[The Lone Groover]

3. "Mayor Rudy Giuliani was in on it"

Ol' Rudy at the very least has some interesting questions to answer? Somehow he knew the WTC was coming down.

The security companies guarding the World Trade Centre were in on it, Mayor Rudy Giuliani was in on it, the Federal Aviation Administration was in on it, NASA was in on it, and the Pentagon was in on it.

Each of these organisations (except NASA - NASA is in loose change?) have some individuals who have some interesting questions to answer.

How was the Holocaust kept so secret by the way? How many thousands did that involve?

What it needs is a few at the top giving orders and those beneath following them. Thousands are not required to be "in on it".

[CJCRANE]

4. It would be interesting

to know what the general extent of knowledge about the Holocaust was as it was happening - amongst the German people and amongst the Allies. And also how long did it take after WWII for the full extent of the Holocaust to become common knowledge?

(I think it is also important to stress the following : if 9/11 was a state-sponsored crime then 9/11 Debunkers have more in common with Holocaust-Deniers than so-called CTers do).

[MervinFerd]

5. If Grandma had wheels, she would be a Chevrolet.

[CJCRANE]

10. My Grandma really *did* have wheels

on her chair.

But back to the topic in hand.

If you can tell me who the financiers were for the 9/11 operation and what has been done to apprehend them - then I will pack my bags and go home. No more 9/11 Truth, I will rest easy knowing that the conspiracy has been solved.

[hack89]

6. Since the fairly recent revelations ..

that the Wehrmacht (regular German army) was deeply involved in the holocaust and it was not the isolated and secret actions of a small group I would argue that there was a very large segment of Germany society that knew about it. The fact the German's keep meticulous records of the entire process tell me that they weren't overly concerned about being found out.

The view of the "unblemished" Wehrmacht was shaken by an exhibition produced by the Hamburger Institut für Sozialforschung (Hamburg Institute for Social Research)<3> titled Vernichtungskrieg. Verbrechen der Wehrmacht 1941 bis 1944 ("Crimes of the German Wehrmacht: Dimensions of a War of Annihilation 1941-1944").<4> The popular and controversial traveling exhibition seen by an estimated 1.2 million visitors over the last decade asserted, with the support of written documents and photographs, that the Wehrmacht was "involved in planning and implementing a war of annihilation against Jews, prisoners of war, and the civilian population." After criticisms about incorrect attribution and captioning of some of the images in the exhibition, the head of the Hamburg Institute for Social Research suspended the display, pending review of its content by a committee of German historians. The committee's report in 2000 stated that accusations of forged materials were not justified, but that some of the exhibit's documentation had inaccuracies and that the arguments presented were too sweeping. Yet, the committee reaffirmed the reliability of the exhibition:

The fundamental statements made in the exhibition about the Wehrmacht and the war of annihilation in 'the east' are correct. It is indisputable that, in the Soviet Union, the Wehrmacht not only 'entangled' itself in genocide perpetrated against the Jewish population, in crimes perpetrated against Soviet POWs, and in the fight against the civilian population, but in fact participated in these crimes, playing at times a supporting, at times a leading role. These were not isolated cases of 'abuse' or 'excesses'; they were activities based on decisions reached by top level military leaders or troop leaders on or behind the front lines.<5>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht

[The Lone Groover]

11. Er...

The fact the German's keep meticulous records of the entire process tell me that they weren't overly concerned about being found out.

Such as?

[hack89]

25. Plenty of references here ..

dive in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Who knew about the killings?

Some claim that the full extent of what was happening in German-controlled areas was not known until after the war. However, even though Hitler did not talk about the camps in public, numerous rumors and eyewitness accounts from escapees and others gave some indication that Jews were being killed in large numbers. Since the early years of the war, the Polish government-in-exile published documents and organised meetings to spread word of the fate of the Jews. By early 1941, the British had received information via an intercepted Chilean memo that Jews were being targeted, and by late 1941 they had intercepted information about a number of large massacres of Jews conducted by German police. In an entry in the Friedrich Kellner Diary dated October 28, 1941, the German justice inspector Friedrich Kellner recorded a conversation he had in Laubach with a German soldier who had witnessed a massacre in Poland. Churchill, who was privy to intelligence reports derived from decoded German transmissions, first began mentioning "mass killings" in public at the same time. In the summer of 1942, a Jewish labor organization (the Bund) got word to London that 700,000 Polish Jews had already died, and the BBC took the story seriously, though the United States State Department did not.<73> In the United States, in November of 1942, a telegram from Europe which contained word about Hitler's plans was released by Stephen Wise of the World Jewish Congress, after a long wait for permission from the government.<74> This led to attempts by Jewish organizations to put Roosevelt under pressure to act on behalf of the European Jews, many of whom had tried in vain to enter either Britain or the U.S.

On December 17, 1942, however, after receiving a detailed eyewitness account from Jan Karski, the Allies issued a formal declaration confirming and condemning Nazi extermination policy toward the Jews.<75><76> The US State Department was aware of the use and the location of the gas chambers of extermination camps, but refused pleas to bomb them out of operation. On May 12, 1943, Polish government-in-exile and Bund leader Szmul Zygielbojm committed suicide in London to protest the inaction of the world with regard to the Holocaust, stating in part in his suicide letter:

I cannot continue to live and to be silent while the remnants of Polish Jewry, whose representative I am, are being killed. My comrades in the Warsaw ghetto fell with arms in their hands in the last heroic battle. I was not permitted to fall like them, together with them, but I belong with them, to their mass grave.
By my death, I wish to give expression to my most profound protest against the inaction in which the world watches and permits the destruction of the Jewish people.

The death camps were discussed between American and British leaders at the Bermuda Conference in April of 1943. The large camps near Auschwitz were finally surveyed by plane in April of 1944, many months after the German air force ceased to be a serious danger. While all important German cities and production centers were bombed by Allied forces until the end of the war, no attempt was made to collapse the system of mass annihilation by destroying pertinent structures or train tracks, even though Churchill was a proponent of bombing parts of the Auschwitz complex. Throughout the war, Britain also pressed European leaders to prevent "illegal" Jewish immigration and sent ships to block the sea-route to Palestine (from which Britain withdrew in 1948), turning back many refugees. <77>

Debate also continues on how much average Germans knew about the Holocaust. Recent historical work suggests that the majority of Germans knew that Jews were being indiscriminately killed and persecuted, even if they did not know of the specifics of the death camps. Robert Gellately, a historian at Oxford University, conducted a widely-respected survey of the German media before and during the war, concluding that there was "substantial consent and active participation of large numbers of ordinary Germans" in aspects of the Holocaust, and documenting that the sight of columns of slave laborers were common, and that the basics of the concentration camps, if not the extermination camps, were widely known.<78>

[CGowen]

9. As far as I know they had propaganda for everybody.

Here is a propaganda movie from 1944 depicting a town given to the Jews by A.Hitler

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x18252 (depicting sports, lectures, entertainment etc)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u8sIk8QQ5k

It is interesting because it contradicts previous propaganda depicting Jews as a cause for anything.


It probably worked for the gullible 30% that believe anything or engage in doublethink.
Just like connecting 911 before the Iraq war with Saddam and denying it afterwards. And there are still people who don't realize it.



I've seen a documentary where Jews talked how they never went to a camp because they read the newspaper and used simple logic.
The newspapers told that they had to go to work camps and help to win the war by serving the Reich. (I'm not certain about the text)
They figured why do they have to take everybody. Children,(women) and old people have certainly no use in a work camp?
So they started to falsify papers and searched for a place to hide (it weren't many in this documentary so I don't know how common this was)



There is a speech by Himmler where he talks about it in Oct, 1943 (secret meeting with SS officers)

http://www.holocaust-history.org/himmler-poznan/speech-text.shtml
http://www.holocaust-history.org/himmler-poznan/index.shtml (movie ENG/GER subtitles)

Just as we did not hesitate on June 30 to carry out our duty, as ordered, and stand comrades who had failed against the wall and shoot them.

About which we have never spoken, and never will speak.

That was, thank God, a kind of tact natural to us, a foregone conclusion of that tact, that we have never conversed about it amongst ourselves, never spoken about it, everyone shuddered, and everyone was clear that the next time, he would do the same thing again, if it were commanded and necessary.

I am talking about the "Jewish evacuation": the extermination of the Jewish people

The higher ups of the SS knew it and the people who did it knew it. And the normal soldiers, or residents had to make up their on minds and come to a conclusion. But how could a sane person imagine something?

The media control was better at the time, no internet no other ways to expose things.

I have to think of Rumsfelds comment about Abu Ghraib

The media may self-censor but, as Rumsfeld acknowledged, it's hard to censor soldiers overseas, who don't write letters home, as in the old days, that can be opened by military censors who ink out unacceptable lines. Today's soldiers instead function like tourists, as Rumsfeld put it, ''running around with digital cameras and taking these unbelievable photographs and then passing them off, against the law, to the media, to our surprise.''

The intelligence community certainly knew it and was ready to get those doctors working in camps for their own purposes.

Kurt Blome for example

"In 1943 Blome was studying bacteriological warfare, although officially he was involved in cancer research, which was however only a camouflage. Blome additionally served as deputy health minister of the Reich. Would like you to send investigators?"

Blome admitted that he had been ordered in 1943 to experiment with plague vaccines on concentration camp prisoners. He was tried at the Doctors' Trial in 1947 on charges of practicing euthanasia (extermination of sick prisoners), and conducting experiments on humans. Although acquitted, his earlier admissions were well known, and it was generally accepted that he had indeed participated in the gruesome experiments (there is evidence that Blome experimented with Sarin gas on Auschwitz prisoners).

It is believed that American intervention saved Blome from the gallows. In return Blome agreed to provide information to the Americans about his experiments in the Dachau concentration camp and advice in the development of their own germ warfare program. Two months after his Nuremberg acquittal, Blome was transferred to the USA in the frame of Operation Paperclip and interviewed at Camp David, Maryland by the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency about biological warfare. In 1951, he was hired by the U.S. Army Chemical Corps to work on chemical warfare. His file neglected to mention Nuremberg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Blome

[The Lone Groover]

12. Ausrottung is extermination?

I thought it meant uprooting in the evacuation sense.

Trying to make out it was no secret is difficult unless you engage in a dishonest word twisting and claims of "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" innuendo.

It was a well kept secret.

[CGowen]

15. yes

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed§Hdr=on&spellToler=on&search=ausrottung&relink=on



I think Himmler was referring to the extermination troops working behind the frontline troops
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1565844157/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-2461531-6204144#reader-link (page 3)

I meant population living near a village witnessed it, wounded soldiers going back for treatment, supply troops might have seen it etc.

[The Lone Groover]

16. I think there is a solid argument that Ausrottung means...

...uprooting in the evacuation, expelling sense. Especially as Himmler specifically mentions evacuation.

German documentation of the Holocaust is thin to non-existant unless you engage in work play and innuendo.

It was an extremely well kept secret.

I'm not sure Churchill or FDR knew about it even. They didn't mention it in their memoirs.

[CGowen]

18. I don't think so

It is one of those things that is easily said. "The Jewish people is being exterminated," every Party member will tell you, "perfectly clear, it's part of our plans, we're eliminating the Jews, exterminating them, ha!, a small matter."

http://www.holocaust-history.org/himmler-poznan/speech-text.shtml
I think he is clear

Maybe Holocaust is the wrong word it is greek and means "completely burned", it is used for the extermination of Jews in general.



Before the war you had partly evacuation and even Jews were sometimes let out of camps but that was rare

http://history1900s.about.com/od/holocaust/a/stlouis.htm
One passenger, Aaron Pozner, had just been released from Dachau. On the night of Kristallnacht, Pozner along with 26,000 other Jews had been arrested and deported to concentration camps. While interned at Dachau, Pozner witnessed brutal murders by hanging, drowning, and crucifixion as well as torture by flogging and castrations by a bayonet.2 Surprisingly, one day Pozner was released from Dachau on the condition that he leave Germany within fourteen days. Though his family had very little money, they were able to pool enough money to buy a ticket for him to board the S.S. St. Louis. Pozner said goodbye to his wife and two children, knowing that they would never be able to raise enough money to buy another ticket to freedom. Beaten and forced to sleep amongst bloody animal hides on his journey to reach the ship, Pozner boarded with the knowledge that it was up to him to earn the money to bring his family to freedom.

Bush didn't mention "Prescott Bush and his role during WW2" in his memoirs.



Only the neocons put on paper what they are doing, nobody else did this.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CGowen]

22. He also uses "Ausschaltung",

which is used for light-switches and professional killers. Do you think the SS-Einsatzgruppen played cards with people?

[The Lone Groover]

28. Yes - elimination - it's the same argument.

The elimination of the Jews as a national identity.
You have to take it in context of Himmlers evacuation quote.
Absolute documentary proof of the holocaust is pratically non-existant unless you play word games and suggest innuendo, which is why "holocaust deniers" are on the increase.

It was a secret to the vast majority involving thousands - perhaps like 9/11.

"I was only following orders" was the common cry after the war.

[Bolo Boffin]

45. Let's stick with the Himmler speech for context

Himmler, in the very same speech, says:

...wir hatten die Pflicht unserem Volk gengenüber das zu tun, dieses Volk, das uns umbringen wollte, umzubringen.

What does umbringen mean, Lone Groover?

[The Lone Groover]

64. it means destroy or kill.

Same argument - destruction of the Jewish national identity.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Lone Groover]

73. Destroy the jewish people does not...

...absolutely mean the extermination of every single Jew.
It can be figurative speech.
Himmlers Poznan speech is entirely subjective.

[Bolo Boffin]

48. Another quote from the Himmler speech

...wir wollen nicht am Schluss, weil wir den Bazillus ausrotten, an dem Bazillus krank werden und sterben.

So do doctors usually deport bacteria?

[The Lone Groover]

68. Ever referred ro someone as scum?

None of these are proof.
They are all open to interpretation - its totally subjective.

[Bolo Boffin]

69. How predictable of you.

When faced with evidence, you retreat into subjectivity.

[The Lone Groover]

71. I'm not retreating.

I'm telling you, Himmlers Poznan speech proves nothing.
Subjective interpretation of it gives anyone anything they wish from it.
It can be interpreted in a way that makes it mean the evacuation - the uprooting - of the Jewish people from Europe.
It does not prove that everyone knew what was happening.

[Bolo Boffin]

72. Yes, you are - you always do.

When faced with evidence, you retreat into subjectivity.

[The Lone Groover]

74. What evidence?

I'm telling you how Himmlers speech is subjective.

If you want to know about retreat - go and look at the Anthrax thread.

[Bolo Boffin]

77. What evidence??? Man, you are a piece of work.

Look around, Lone Groover. I've got at least five points taken from Himmler's speech, taken from a dictionary at the time, and you say what evidence?

And now you want to distract onto the Anthrax discussion?? Over a comment I clearly labeled as a speculation on my part?? Man alive, you are twisting in the wind.

It's clear you're trying to abandon the argument, but to do that, you need not to distract and retreat into subjectivity, but say, "You know what? This ausrottung thing, I'm probably wrong. Looks like some pretty heinous people came up with that in order to deny the Holocaust (David Irving, Stormfront, etc.) I think I'll abandon it."

[The Lone Groover]

86. It is entirely subjective.

Why did you pick literal extermination over uprooting, extirpation or a figurative rendering of the words?

I mentioned Anthrax because you mentioned retreat - just wanted to remind you about retreat.

I don't care who else said it... in my own.. my own personal opinion.. which I came to after careful consideration... which I am allowed to hold under the first amendment... ausrottung has been interpreted subjectively. The worse meaning in the worse sense has been chosen over other plausible meanings.

[CGowen]

75. It's not the issue

They say they did it (SS-Einsatzgruppen) and they say they are not talking about it.


It's like British SAS carrying out bombings in Basra.

[Bolo Boffin]

24. I dare you to provide a link to this "solid argument."

Dearie me, where have you been on the wide wide internets, LG?

[The Lone Groover]

26. I don't need links.

I can argue for myself thanks very much.

Ausrottung means uprooting or extirpation - yes or no?
Hilter used the same word in the context of destruction of national identity - yes or no?

The fact is the Holocaust was a very big secret that involved thousands of people. Twisting words to make it seem like everybody knew isn't particulary clever.

Churchill and FDR didn't even mention it in their memoirs - that's how big a secret it was.

[AZCat]

27. So now you're claiming Churchill and FDR were part of the coverup?

Did I get that right?

[The Lone Groover]

29. No claims.

I am merely stating the fact that the Holocaust is not mentioned in their memoirs.
Am I wrong?

[AZCat]

32. I've only read the James MacGregor Burns books about FDR.

I was just asking for clarification - it seemed to me that you were suggesting because neither of these two world leaders mentioned the Holocaust in their memoirs they were both involved in the coverup of the Holocaust.

[The Lone Groover]

34. Certainly not. But it appears they were out the loop. nt

[The Lone Groover]

38. Oops - I meant Eisenhower not FDR. sorry.

I also forgot De Gaulle who seems to be similarly out the loop.

[Bolo Boffin]

37. Arguments use evidence.

Arguments are not "hey, look at me, I can make an assertion and that makes it true."

You say that a solid argument can be made. Make it. Provide evidence of it. Show your work. Provide links to where these arguments are being made.

Yeah.

[The Lone Groover]

40. I have - thanks.

Ausrottung can mean uprooting and extirpation. To "pull up by the roots".
But you must know that.

Oh.. I get it.. you want links - maybe Lone Groover will be stupid enough to link to "Storm Front", "Nazis are us" or some other hideous web site.

No thanks - I can argue for myself.

[Bolo Boffin]

41. No, you have not. You have made an assertion. You have not provided evidence to back it up.

How unusual. Are places like Stormfront or the National Vanguard making the same arguments you are here? My goodness.

It seems to be a habit with you to make assertions and say you're making arguments. Provide your evidence.

[The Lone Groover]

42. I have presented what I have presented.

Prove its not true.

Prove ausrottung doesn't meant uprooting or extirpation. Should be simple enough even for you.

My argument is not the same as Stormfront or National Vanguard (whoever they are).

My argument is that the holocaust was a secret kept from the vast, vast majority by thousands.

Got it?

[Bolo Boffin]

43. And it is wanting.

You make reference to a typical Holocaust-denying argument. You refuse to provide any evidence to back up your assertion. You try to distract from your lack of evidence by trying to turn the burden of proof around on me. You bring up Stormfront and then pretend not to know who they are.

I've got it.

[The Lone Groover]

52. I know who Stormfront are they are a hideous outfit.

I don't know who National Vanguard are - is that an American Nazi party? In Britain there is the BNP - equally hideous.

I haven't made any holocaust denying arguments - I've pointed out that the holocaust was kept secret. Even Churchill, Eisenhower and De Gaulle didn't seem to know much about it as they didn't mention it in their memoirs.

You can look up the definition of ausrottung yourself - to use it as proof of open German extermination plans is not entirely honest - is it - the truth is not served by twisting it.

You have yet to point out anything I said that isn't true.

[Bolo Boffin]

55. I've pointed out other uses of austrottung above - from Himmler's speech.

The denial that ausrottung means exactly what Himmler meant is a common Holocaust denying argument. That's why I'm surprised you use it. The only people who need to change what Himmler meant are people who don't want Himmler to say what he's saying - people who deny the Holocaust.

As is clear from Himmler's own speech, he wasn't deporting bacteria, and he says it was necessary to kill the people who were trying to kill them (the umbringen quote). A dictionary from the time defines the word as "total extermination". This is an argument that can only be pulled on English-speaking people, and you would do well to abandon it.

[The Lone Groover]

56. What Himmler meant?

Change what Himmler meant?

He said ausrottung.

What did he mean? Who decides what he meant? You're not being subjective are you? He said "ausrottung", nothing more nothing less. There are at least four meanings of that word. Why did you pick "extermination" above the other three? Subjective? In context of the evacuation quote, "uprooting" is equally - if not more - valid.

It was no secret that Jews were being extirpated. However the holocaust was a secret held by thousands.

A dictionary from the time defines the word as "total extermination".

Here we go... what other definitions did it give? Please be as honest as possible. Being economical with the truth doesn't serve the truth.

Do you know that word is used in other Nazi texts? Did it mean extermination by murder?

[Bolo Boffin]

57. You will keep pursuing this argument.

Hm.

As I have made clear above, there are instances from Himmler's own speech where the meaning of ausrottung is completely transparent.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:UboPJGplJw8J:www.holocaust-history.org/himmler-poznan/ausrotten.shtml+ausrottung&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

That's a cache of a great rebuttal of this heinous argument you have latched onto like a dog on a stick.

Unless you've got pictures of gardeners carefully replanting weeds somewhere, or doctors carefully extracting bacteria (Himmler's own comparison!) from a sick human body and replacing it in a more suitable environment, you need to abandon this argument.

[The Lone Groover]

76. Completely transparent?

No its entirely subjective.
You chose the worst of four different meaning of the word ausrottung.
You ignored the context of the evacuation.

Here's a good one - what does the spell checker on this website suggest as one of the alternatives for ausrottung?

[Bolo Boffin]

78. Deal with the evidence at that link.

"Oh, lookit the spellchecker, lookit the subjectivity," is not dealing with the evidence.

It is ignoring it.

Deal with the evidence, Lone Groover. It's clear what Himmler meant based on his other uses of ausrottung in his speech, and his talk about killing the Jewish people before they killed the Germans. It's clear from the context of his speech that he means the Final Solution. It is heinous of you to deny this.

[The Lone Groover]

82. What evidence?

Picking the worse meaning out of four is NOT evidence.
Context Bolo... context.

[Bolo Boffin]

85. Anybody can go to that link, Lone Groover, and see there's plenty of evidence

that you are dismissing just like you are clearly dismissing the Holocaust.

[The Lone Groover]

94. I am not "clearly dismissing the holocaust".

Stop the shit smearing.

I stand by everything I wrote here. The Poznan speech is normally interpreted subjectively and is in no way proof that everyone was in on the secret.

I have clearly listed my reasons why I believe the speech is treated subjectively. It is my own honest opinion. An opinion which it is my fundamental human right to hold. An opinion which is protected under the first amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America.

The hate bill currently being pushed through the house will kill my constitutional right to hold the above opinion.

Maybe you can see what I'm so agitated about.

You should be agitated as well.

[CGowen]

80. you are completely on the wrong path

rottung comes from verrotten=to rot,to decompose

[CGowen]

89. You can look at evacuation as public code word

just like the "war on terror" a hoax

[The Lone Groover]

90. Here we go - Evacuaton - Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Subjective - totally subjective.
These bastards thought they were going to rule the world for a thousand years. Why on earth would they be using code words.
They weren't exactly shy about other atrocities.

[CGowen]

93. You think ausrottung has something to do with root

You are wrong, the German word for root is Wurzel, entwurzeln=uprooting

I am talking about the "Jewish evacuation": the extermination of the Jewish people.

It has nothing to do with root, believe me. In this sentence he clarifies what evacuation means in 1943

[The Lone Groover]

95. It's meaning is to "uproot", to "extirpate".

"to pull up by the roots". "Root out".

You must know that!

In this sentence he clarifies what evacuation means in 1943

that is just one of many subjective interpretations.

[CGowen]

97. The plant dies and rots (verrottet) nt

Vertreibung or Enteignung would be normally used

[Bolo Boffin]

58. What does umbringen mean?

...wir hatten die Pflicht unserem Volk gengenüber das zu tun, dieses Volk, das uns umbringen wollte, umzubringen.

What does umbringen mean, Lone Groover?

[Bolo Boffin]

59. die Ausrottung: völlige Vernichtung.

Extermination: complete annihilation

You would do well to abandon this heinous argument.

[The Lone Groover]

81. Context bollo... and figurative speech. nt

[Bolo Boffin]

84. I love it when Holocaust deniers chide me for disputing their foul lies. n/t

[The Lone Groover]

92. Which holocaust denier has been doing that? nt

[Bolo Boffin]

60. "We deport the bacteria because we don't want to die from it?"

Himmler: ...wir wollen nicht am Schluss, weil wir den Bazillus ausrotten, an dem Bazillus krank werden und sterben.

Are you sure you want to keep going with this argument, Lone Groover?

[Bolo Boffin]

61. Why did Himmler talk for a minute about complete secrecy before mentioning the Ausrottung of Jews?

The second reason is that it makes no sense in the flow of Himmler's speech. When he first refers to the "Ausrottung" of the Jews, Himmler has just spent a full minute impressing on his audience the importance of utter secrecy. (He has even invoked the memory of the "Night of the Long Knives," when traitors to the Nazi cause were arrested and shot on Hitler's orders, so his audience of SS Major-Generals is reminded that, in the Nazi war machine, top officers have no problem executing lower-ranking officers.)

Everyone in the world had known for years that Germany wanted to deport its Jews. If the only thing he was talking about was deportation, why was he emphasizing secrecy to his officers?

If you think Stormfront is such a horrid site, why are you using their arguments?

[The Lone Groover]

88. These are MY arguments.

Stop the shit smearing - oh I forgot - you're an OCTer.
Par for the course.

[CGowen]

63. This is what a normal dictionary gives you

ausrotten tr.V. eradicate <weeds,vermin,
etc>; (fig.) wipe out <family, enemy, etc>;
eradicate, stamp out<superstition, idea, evil,
etc>; eliminate <error>

[The Lone Groover]

79. What does a 1920's dictionary give you?

You know - one that was used before "ausrottung" became a well known word in the holocaust context?
How did the Nazi's use the same word in other speeches?

[Bolo Boffin]

83. My post #59 is from a 1935 dictionary - "complete annihilation".

Is that good enough for you?

[The Lone Groover]

87. No... cut the bullshit and list the other meanings. nt

[MervinFerd]

19. CJ, this is offensive and dumb.

What, do you think, would have been the life-expectancy of any person walking about Nazi Berlin handing out leaflets about the disappearance of Jews? How many radio talk-show hosts were openly accusing Hitler of murdering Jews? How many CDs were doing that?

And, how many Truthers have disappeared for accusing Bush and the US Gov't of great crime? Are Dylan Avery and Alex "Jim" Jones in great danger?

Are -you- in great danger?

[CGowen]

23. free speech is a great thing and it keeps america alive

-Rupert Murdoch laments that he couldn't influence the opinion on the war.
-talks about hate crime laws
-free speech zones
-banning free speech.

As far as I know Bush equates conspiracy theorist with terrorist and people like O'Reilly say 911 scholars are terrorists.




People handing out leaflets survived over 9 months (sorry)

White Rose (German: die Weiße Rose) was a non-violent resistance group in Nazi Germany, consisting of five students from the University of Munich and their philosophy professor. The group became known for an anonymous leaflet campaign, lasting from June 1942 until February 1943, which called for active opposition to Adolf Hitler's regime. <1>

All six members of the group were arrested by the Gestapo, convicted and executed by beheading in 1943. The text of their sixth leaflet was smuggled out of Germany through Scandinavia to England, and in July 1943 copies of it were dropped over Germany by Allied planes, retitled "The Manifesto of the Students of Munich." <2>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_rose

[The Lone Groover]

33. "I don't like what you say.. but I defend your right to say it"

The first amendment is dying before the eyes of the American people.

The hate bill going through congress is another step along the road.

Freedom of expression is a fundamental right - enshrined in the American Constitution.

Sometimes you have to be offensive - the truth is offensive to some people. The Government will use the hate bill to suppress dissenters along with the Patriot act.

People should fight for the Constitution before it disappears.

[CGowen]

36. That's one more reason to ignore those rules and say what you think

If everybody points the finger at the real terrorist, than the emperor has no clothes.

Without talk radio, internet and DVD-burners there would be no 911 movement.

[MervinFerd]

44. I am unsure of your point.

If you are trying to compare the suppression of speech in Nazi Germany to the current situation in the USofA, that's "bollocks".

I have no doubt that many on the American Right would happily behead their opposition. But that hasn't happened yet, and people like Avery, Fetzer, Jones, Jones, Wood, Sacks et al become rich and famous marketing their conspiracy claims. Without apparent fear of arrest and execution.

There's a pretty good case that the "Truth" movement -is- the method of suppressing serious opposition.

In any event, free speech works both directions--Avery has the right to make "bollocks" claims; I have the right to call him a lying grifter.

[CGowen]

47. I think Jones lost his job nt

[MervinFerd]

50. But his head is still attached. As is his pension.

Meanwhile, he has become a celebrity. Whether he has made money, I dunno. He's not a slick as Avery and Alex "Jim" Jones.

But he's not in Auschwitz.

[CGowen]

51. It would be too obvious.

But who is flown to Poland?


Soviet-era compound in northern Poland was site of secret CIA interrogation, detentions

POLAND -- The CIA operated an interrogation and short-term detention facility for suspected terrorists within a Polish intelligence training school with the explicit approval of British and US authorities, according to British and Polish intelligence officials familiar with the arrangements.

Intelligence officials identify the site as a component of a Polish intelligence training school outside the northern Polish village of Stare Kiejkuty. While previously suspected, the facility has never been conclusively identified as being part of the CIA's secret rendition and detention program.

Only the Polish prime minister and top Polish intelligence brass were told of the plan, in which agents of the United States quietly shuttled detainees from other holding facilities around the globe for stopovers and short-term interrogation in Poland between late 2002 and 2004.

According to a confidential British intelligence memo shown to RAW STORY, Prime Minister Tony Blair told Poland's then-Prime Minister Leszek Miller to keep the information secret, even from his own government.

“Miller was asked to keep it as tight as possible,” the memo said.
...
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/Sovietera_compound_in_Poland_was_site_0307.html

[sabbat hunter]

8. the holocaust was known

maybe not the extent of it but it was known. jews in america did all they could to get their relatives out of europe under hitler and to the US and safety.

some jews made it out and got to america, others didnt.

[The Lone Groover]

13. What was known was that the Jews were being badly treated.

What was a well kept secret was that the Germans were engaging in mass homicide - unless you you have some kind of proof the American Jews knew it was happening at the time?

[Make7]

30. The Holocaust in the New York Times, 1939-1945

 

When the Facts Didn't Speak for Themselves

The Holocaust in the New York Times, 1939-1945

Laurel Leff

Conventional wisdom assumes that Americans did not know about the Holocaust while it was happening. However, over the last two decades, scholars have demonstrated not only that credible reports reached the Allied governments throughout the war about the persecution and ultimately the extermination of the Jews, but also that much of that information appeared in the Jewish press and in daily newspapers. My own research reveals that during the war a story on what was happening to the Jews appeared on average every other day in the New York Times. The question then becomes, if all this information was available, why do we think we did not know? This article argues that the placement of news about the Holocaust almost uniformly on inside pages, as well as the failure to highlight it in editorials or in summaries of important events, made it difficult for most Americans to find the facts and to understand their importance. The article concludes that despite the detailed, credible information that was available, the American public actually did not know about the Holocaust while it was happening because mainstream American newspapers never presented the story of the extermination of the Jews in a way that highlighted its importance.

http://hij.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/5/2/52

- Make7

[The Lone Groover]

35. See what I mean...

The article concludes that despite the detailed, credible information that was available, the American public actually did not know about the Holocaust while it was happening because mainstream American newspapers never presented the story of the extermination of the Jews in a way that highlighted its importance.

It would be nice to see some of this information that wasn't presented properly.

It was a secret, "nobody knew" is a claim I've heard many times from friends of mine who lived through it.

[Make7]

46. That's an interesting way to keep a secret.

Publishing detailed, credible information in one of the most prominent newspapers in America.

BTW - Welcome to DU. I see you've been here less than a month.

- Make7

[CGowen]

49. Just like firefighters reporting bombs and people don't want to believe them.

Hidden in plain view.

[The Lone Groover]

53. Detailed credible information?

Such as?
The American people were unaware of the Holocaust.
They were aware that Jews were being rounded up, transported and treated quite badly, but not the Holocaust.
It was a secret kept by thousands.

[Make7]

66. People being unaware of something is not the same thing as it being kept a secret.

 

Throughout World War II, the American media published and broadcast timely, detailed, and accurate accounts of what was happening to the Jews in Europe. The New York Times alone printed nearly 1,200 articles about what we have now come to call the Holocaust, about one every other day.

The articles in the Times and elsewhere described the propagation of anti-Semitic laws in German allied countries; death from disease and starvation of hundreds of thousands in ghettos and labor camps; mass executions in Nazi-occupied Russia; and mass gassings in Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Maidanek. The articles also indicated that these were not isolated incidents, but part of a systematic campaign to kill all the Jews in Europe.

And yet, at the end of the war and for decades afterward, Americans claimed they did not know about the Holocaust as it was happening. How was it possible for so much information to be available in the mass media and yet simultaneously for the public to be ignorant?

http://hnn.us/articles/10903.html

- Make7

[The Lone Groover]

91. Be nice to see some of these articles. nt.

[Make7]

96. Where to find them is not a secret. ( n/t )

[CGowen]

39. sounds familiar nt

[MervinFerd]

21. and the Nazis killed anyone who complained.

It is truly dumb and offensive to compare the Holocaust and the supposed 911 plots.

The "Truthers" have stated their case publicly and loudly for 5 years now. Nobody is off to the Camps.

Self-aggrandizing juvenile BS.

[The Lone Groover]

31. Compared in the sense that secrets can be kept by thousands.

You don't see the similarity?

[hack89]

62. Except the Holocaust was much more than thousands

it was not a conspiracy by a small group of people against the German people- it was not only national policy, it was the mobilization of large parts of German society for mass murder and/or slave labor. It was an ongoing operation involving millions of people (oppressor and victim both), vast amounts of money and the resources of a modern industrial country. Think of the transportation resources alone required to move millions of Jews around Europe and it is clear that it was more than thousands of Germans.

See my post nr 6 for the involvement of the regular German army in war crimes to see that millions of military alone were complicit.

[The Lone Groover]

67. The destinction has to be made between...

public knowledge of the transportation of the Jews and the fate that awaited them when they got to their destination.

There is ample german documentation for the former but scant documentation for the latter.

It was a secret kept by thousands.

[CJCRANE]

54. It works both ways.

Some OCTers have tried to link 9/11 truth and Holocaust Denial as being similar. I reject that meme.

[hack89]

65. Not accurate ..

we simply point out the role anti-semetic sites play in the truth movement. For example, sites like AFP and people linked to it are common references in this forum.

[Andre II]

7. Lack of historical knowledge

"The greater conspiracy theory, on the other hand, is just plain loony – and yet more and more people are falling for it in the West, where it was once the exclusive domain of people with counter-rotating eyeballs and poor personal hygiene....At least 10,000 people were in on it. They had to be, or it couldn’t have worked. And more than five years later, not one of them has talked."

I don't know how often I've heard this poor argument that prefers to talk clicé instead of looking at the hard facts.
Anyway.
"At least 10000 people were in on it".
Why?
Says who. Much less would have been sufficient.
Moreover this argument wrongly implies that everybody participating in one way or another was in the know.
This is poor nonsense.
Just have a look on typical state sponsored terrorism as Operation Gladio (this btw is a historical acknowledged fact). People involved knew nothing whatsoever of the whole operation. Everybody worked on a strict need to know basis.

And for everybody who believes that many people being involved in a conspiracy is impossible.
Just have a look at the Bologna bombing (one operation of Gladio) where 80 were killed. The whole investigation was covered up by many many investigator and policemen being involved.
In fact not only the Bologna bombing but all of Operation Gladio remained a secret for decades.
Here a grea BBC documentary on Gladio.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x134875

[The Lone Groover]

14. It's a mistake to mention Gladio.

OCTer's have a physical blindness to that word as far as I can tell. Bit like the Anthrax word.

[MervinFerd]

17. And don't forget all "The OCTers" pointing out flaws in brilliant theories.

And the management of the current forum, and the US Congress, all of it, and The Nation and The Guardian and Mother Jones...

[Lithos]

98. Locking this thread

Please take special care when dealing with such extremely sensitive subjects such as the Holocaust.

Lithos
DU Moderator