The Pentagon Thread: Part 4

[DulceDecorum]

The original thread on the original DU 9:11 Forum was called
Post Your Pentagon Crash Questions Here.
It continued for nine threads each one containing a list of all the preceeding threads. This is the most recent:
Post Your Pentagon Crash Questions Here.
Part 9!!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5620&forum=DCForumID43&omm=0

Then DU upgraded to a new server.
Hence,
The Pentagon Thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=405&mesg_id=405

The Pentagon Thread: Part 2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=708&mesg_id=708

The Pentagon Thread: Part 3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=1167

[DulceDecorum]

1. HAIR

Somehow or other, a discussion on another thread evolved into a discussion on the presence of what appears to be fire-proof hair growing upon the heads of certain well publicized persons who managed to survive the fire within the Pentagon on the morning of September 11.
In the interests of honest discussion, I have taken it upon myself to repost some of that information on what I consider to be the correct thread. Hopefully this will permit the other thread to run its proper course.

****************************************


And I say AGAIN that I have YET to see ONE picture in which a person has burned hair.
There are photos of people being medi-evaced out in helicopters with what appears to be horrible burns all over their heads and arms and torso. Funny how the hair on the head and arms and torso is growing so luxuriantly that one might mistake the entire scene for a commerical where the victims are not only clients, but are also overseeing a merger of the Hair Club and Rogaine.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=1305&mesg_id=1984&page=

As for the hair on the survivors, here, see for yourself.
Let's start with this article.
(CBS) Even though 125 people were killed in the Pentagon on Sept.11, there was something miraculous about that day. The plane obliterated the first and part of the second floor, but the third, fourth and fifth floors remained suspended in midair for 35 minutes. Hundreds of people escaped. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/11/28/60II/main319383.shtml

Eyebrows, moustache.
AND HAIR.
LOTS OF LOVELY HAIR.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=1305&mesg_id=2054&page=

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=1305&mesg_id=2045&page=

[DulceDecorum]

2. GONE before you look up

Summary

Since the time of plane impact at the Pentagon had often been reported with large scatter, the United States Army contacted us to inquire whether we could obtain an accurate time of the Pentagon attack on September 11, 2001 based upon our seismic network. We analyzed seismic records from five stations in the northeastern United States, ranging from 63 to 350 km from the Pentagon. Despite detailed analysis of the data, we could not find a clear seismic signal. Even the closest station ( = 62.8 km) at Soldier's Delight, Baltimore County, Maryland (SDMD) did not record the impact. We concluded that the plane impact to the Pentagon generated relatively weak seismic signals. However, we positively identified seismic signals associated with United Airlines Flight 93 that crashed near Shanksville, Somerset County, Pennsylvania. The time of the plane crash was 10:06:05 5 (EDT).
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/nodate/seismicobservations.html

Well, I know that I will be laughed at if I write about this:
http://www.caus.org/flytriangle/ft091499.shtml
And sneered at if I post this:
http://www.irysec.vic.edu.au/sci/goneill/aurora.htm

For example, station LTL in Louisiana recorded a sonic boom during reentry of the Columbia shuttle after a mission to service the Hubble Space Telescope in March 2002. This is seen as a high frequency pulse (one to two seconds long) in the seismic record. During reentry of Columbia on February 1, 2003, LTL did not record a sonic boom, but rather, an explosion. The event is approximately 100 seconds long and contains both high and low frequency signal.
http://www.geology.smu.edu/~mdr/cv/columbia.html

Joe Jordan, a Port St. John resident who does research for the Mutual UFO Network, said unexplained sonic booms have been reported off and on since the late 1970s from New Jersey to Florida.
He and other UFO hunters label them "skyquakes." Due to the lack of seismic activity, they think the sounds emanate from the sky.
The most recent "skyquake" over Florida occurred a year ago in the Gulf Breeze region, which is notorious for UFO sightings, Jordan said.
The cause? Classified military operations, Jordon says. But local military officials scoff at the notion. Of course they would, UFO buffs said. That's why they're classified.
http://www.floridatoday.com/space/explore/stories/1996/050896a.htm

Seismometers are sensitive to all motions of the ground. Besides sensing earthquakes, these instruments commonly record mining blasts, local wind gusts, thunder, trains, sonic booms, and many other types of signals.
Reproduced below are several representative earthquakes and other types of seismic events that are typical of what may be seen on a day's recording from our helicorders. Although most of New Mexico Tech's seismic data is recorded digitally, these examples are provided for historical and visual interest.
http://www.ees.nmt.edu/Geop/Museum_Posters/Helicorder.html

The earthquake experts say it wasn't a shaker, and military authorities say they didn't have the kind of planes in the air that can make a sonic boom.
But whatever it was, the noise that rattled Lowcountry communities about 1:30 p.m. Friday commanded a lot of attention.
"There was this extremely loud, percussive noise," said Reynolds Pommering of Mount Pleasant. "My sister (on James Island) said she heard it, too, and that's eight miles across as the crow flies. I first thought somebody had run into the building."
http://www.charleston.net/stories/080203/loc_02boom.shtml

"It was just a tremendous vibration that went through the whole building," said Ulas Branch, 45, a contract computer programmer who was working in the Pentagon at the time of the crash. "It was like a sonic boom."
http://www.nynewsday.com/ny-uswash122362101sep12,0,2993551.story

At 9:38 a.m. on September 11, 2001, Private First Class Officer Frank Webb was conducting a tour of the Pentagon when terrorists struck America's military fortress.
"I felt the shock wave coming down the corridor and I heard the explosion," he recalls.
http://teacher.scholastic.com/scholasticnews/indepth/911/nation_likenew2.htm

Something shattered a peaceful Lowcountry morning Thursday.
But what?
Many believe an earthquake shook their nerves and rattled their brains, but there was no evidence of an earthquake.
Many scientific types figure the boom was sonic, caused by a military aircraft, but neither the military nor the Federal Aviation Authority is fessing up.
http://charleston.net/stories/020703/loc_07sonic.shtml

After watching news coverage of the New York attacks for about 25 minutes, Rush returned to his office in the C ring on the fifth floor of the Pentagon to take a call.
The Pentagon has five rings designated A through E.
As he stood beside his desk talking on the phone and looking out the window, a shock wave rattled the building.
"That was followed by a vibration that went through the building. A large orange and black cloud of smoke and fire came over the building and engulfed the space around my window," he said.
The vibration caused ceiling tiles and people to fall to the floor.
Everyone immediately thought it was a bomb blast, he said.
http://www.nwfdailynews.com/archive/news/01/011225news4.html

More than the usual number of people were in the Pentagon’s courtyard Tuesday at 9:40 a.m. because the weather was gorgeous.
I was inside, walking down an inside corridor toward the Metro, trying to dodge two janitors moving their clumsy gray trash bin and a pair of fast-moving Army officers rolling up on my heels.
A tremendous vibration and boom, followed quickly by a second, less-intense boom, rattled the gallery of former Defense Secretaries whose portraits hang in the corridor.
http://www.stripes.com/01/sep01/ed091301l.html

"It sounds like you have a good mystery down there," said Michelle Barret, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Geological Survey in Reston, Va.
Manatee isn't alone. Similar inexplicable events have been reported in Pensacola; Cape Fear, N.C.; Dover, Del., and more than 20 other U.S. cities and towns in recent years.
In all those places, the source of the startling booms has never been determined. And like those places, officials could only say what they thought the Manatee mystery wasn't.
U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy officials dismissed a sonic boom from one of their jets as the source of the noise, saying none of their aircraft were in the skies above Manatee at the time.
But that doesn't fly with some area residents, who said they heard two concussions - a loud clap, followed by a fainter one almost immediately afterward - that make it consistent with a sonic boom.
"While I'm not surprised that the Air Force didn't admit to it, I'm quite sure that it was a military plane breaking the sound barrier," said Eric Seibert of Bradenton. "As a kid I used to hear B-58 bombers breaking the sound barrier as they flew out of an Indiana Air Force base. This was the same sound and effect."
http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/local/6128829.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

With no windows, televisions or radios in an office occupied by 16 employees of the Air and Missile Defense and Space Division of the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Programs, Maj. Joseph A. Simonelli Jr. was unaware of what was going on in New York the morning of Sept. 11, 2001.
Simonelli had arrived at the Pentagon from an assignment as the operations officer for the 69th Air Defense Artillery Brigade little more than a week prior to the attack. When he heard his coworkers muttering about an airplane that had crashed into the World Trade Center, he thought they were discussing a simulated training exercise. A few minutes later, the truth of the matter became all too real.
As the major realized what was happening 200 miles to the north, he headed to his computer to search for news. Just then a thunderous vibration rocked his office, shaking the entire building. The ceiling, made of old tiles, began to fall. Smoke burst through the ducts. Simonelli thought there had been a construction accident at one of the ongoing construction sites at the Pentagon.
“It just sounded like something had collapsed onto the floor above us,” said Simonelli. “I had no sense of what was going on outside.”
http://www.hq.c5.army.mil/69ADA/news/simonelli.htm

"We were like, 'Oh my gosh, what was that?' " said Beaufort County Sheriff's Office Spokeswoman Debbie Szpanka. "The whole roof shook. For us, it sounded like something landed on our roof with a big thud."
Others described it as the sound of a giant fist hitting outside walls or a giant gust of wind that lasted only a second or two. Outside, some looked around, trying to spot a wreck.
"What was that?"
No one seemed entirely sure Friday, but emergency management workers knew what it wasn't.
"All I can tell you is it was not seismic in nature," said Steve Fields, deputy director of Beaufort County Emergency Management. "Maybe Godzilla, I don't know, but it wasn't seismic."
http://www.lowcountrynow.com/stories/012503/LOCboom.shtml

About a minute and a half later he heard a rumbling sound like a sonic boom but said it sounded more seismic, like the noise that sometimes precedes an earthquake, and his windows in his house rattled but the ground never shook. Following the vibration, he looked towards the NE sky and saw what appeared to be two faint white "falling stars" that were "falling" side by side and disappeared at the same moment. Mr. R. reported that there were no visual observations of normal aircraft or helicopters in the sky during the event and no sound was heard, with the exception of the rumbling. Additional Case Info: A few minutes later there was a small M2.4 earthquake about 30 miles away at 23:43 PM (PDT - 06:43UT), but due to the low magnitude of the quake, the sonic effects are not thought to be connected with the earthquake.
http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/014/S14159.html

When it hit, she froze.
"I said, 'Oh, my God, a tractor-trailer just hit the building,' " said Joanne Miller, manager of a bed-and-breakfast beside the Delaware River in Upper Bucks County.
Outside she found no tractor-trailer, but she did see her neighbors pouring into the street.
Three miles beneath this village lay the approximate epicenter of an earthquake of magnitude 3.8 that struck parts of Pennsylvania and New Jersey at 2:24 p.m. yesterday, shaking buildings and prompting residents to jam emergency switchboards with worried calls but causing no reported injuries.
The shock - described by witnesses as one or two seconds of intense shaking accompanied by a sonic boom - was most noticeable within a 25-mile circle around Upper Black Eddy on both sides of the river, from Bethlehem to Doylestown and Clinton, N.J.
<snip>
"There were two - bang! bang! - close together, and the whole house trembled," said Watson, who had been reading a magazine. "I thought a tree or something had fallen off the cliff and hit the house."
"But there wasn't any damage," he said. "It was more sound and fury."
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/6627234.htm

Early 1992
An aircraft fitting the description of the Aurora was seen being loaded into a C-5 at night at Lockheed's Skunk Works. The C-5 then departed for Boeing Field in Seattle. Speculation is that this aircraft is a hypersonic drone launched from the larger Aurora aircraft, like the SR-71/D-21A system. "... RAF radars have acquired the hypersonic target traveling at speeds ranging from about Mach 6 to Mach 3 over a NATO-RAF base at Machrihanish, Scotland, near the tip of the Kintyre peninsula, last November and again this past January." In early 1992 a number of houses (+/- 25) in the Netherlands were damaged as a result of a sonic boom. The strange thing was that there were no aircraft in the region that could have caused the boom... A Dutch newspaper suggested it came from a top secret plane temporarely based in Scotland for testing.
http://home.iae.nl/users/wbergmns/info/aurora2.htm

It was reported by the New York Times (B9, 10/06/2001) that at 09:36 (EDT) the crew of a military C-130 plane identified a Boeing 767 moving low and very fast, and that the plane crashed into the southwest side of the Pentagon at 09:38 (EDT). We collected seismic records from all available seismographic stations in the Northeastern United States around the Pentagon (Table 1; Figure 1) in the hope of verifying or accurately pinpointing the time of impact.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/nodate/seismicobservations.html

I had just scanned the sky and the scene one more time, and turned to Ray. We were talking about the need for a swift response to this attack (we were already talking about bin Laden) when Ray leapt to one side, his face instantly animated beyond anything I had ever seen.
"They just hit the Pentagon!"
I turned. Rising up from the right center of the Pentagon’s mass was a gigantic spherical orange mass, the flames oddly bright and vivid in the clear direct sunlight. I stepped to the window, and instinctively put my hand to the glass. Verle and Ray were quickly on either side of me. A few seconds after the explosion, the glass rattled and a dull boom shook the room.
<snip>
We didn’t know what kind of plane had hit the Pentagon, or where it had hit. Later, we were told that it was a 757 out of Dulles, which had come up the river in back of our building, turned sharply over the Capitol, ran past the White House and the Washington Monument, up the river to Rosslyn, then dropped to treetop level and ran down Washington Boulevard to the Pentagon. I cannot fathom why neither myself nor Ray, a former Air Force officer, missed a big 757, going 400 miles an hour, as it crossed in front of our window in its last 10 seconds of flight.
<snip>
The TV mentioned a few times that the bridges leaving Washington were closed, but the two that ran by our window, the Case and the George Mason, were never closed that I could see. Considering the wholesale rush of everybody to get out of town, the traffic never clogged up and gridlock never happened.
Also around 10, the TV was talking about reports of a car bomb at the State Department when we heard and felt a tremendous explosion, much louder than the Pentagon. I assumed that the Capitol, the only iconic Government building not in view from our window, had been hit. All morning, I had been thinking about the last chapter of Tom Clancy’s Debt of Honor, where a Japan Air pilot slammed a 747 into the House of Representatives during a joint session of Congress.
<snip>
The explosion was never mentioned, and it remained a mystery for over a month. I finally read an account of the Pentagon attack in the Washington Post which discussed the air defense response. Before the Pentagon attack, fighter jets were scrambled from Langley, 200 miles south of DC. Trying to get to DC before any of the stray jetliners attacked, they hit Mach 2, leaving a rolling sonic boom all the way up Virginia to the Pentagon. When I was a kid, camping in the Mojave Desert, I heard sonic booms all the time, but it had been so long since jets have been allowed to go supersonic over land, I didn’t recognize the sound any more.
<snip>
The whereabouts of the President became an issue. We had seen him live as he announced the attack at an elementary school in Florida, and he was then whisked away to Air Force One. Since then, there had been no word. About 12:30, I saw some activity in the air and went over to the window. A small private jet, white with no markings, was making a landing at Reagan from the south, and flying just off his left wing was an F-16. The private jet touched down and taxied to the terminal, and the F-16 kicked in his afterburner and leapt up, making a sharp turn to the west. As he did, he was silhouetted briefly on the gibbous moon over the Pentagon, the only honest-to-God beautiful thing I had seen all day. I guessed that maybe the plane was the President sneaking into Washington.
Finally at 1PM, I decided to try to get home. Taking one last look at the Pentagon plume, which waxed and waned in intensity all morning, I headed down Maryland Avenue with the vague notion of seeing if any slug drivers were left. I immediately realized the error of my theory as I reached 12th Street. Not a car, a bus, a pedestrian was in sight in any direction.
http://www.clothmonkey.com/91101.htm


MOVE ALONG FOLKS, NOTHING TO SEE.


James Schwartz, assistant fire chief of Arlington County, says his unit has assumed leadership of the incident site for fire and rescue.
<snip>
"There is little to no indication of an airplane in there," Schwartz reported.
http://ww2.pstripes.osd.mil/01/sep01/ed091301l.html

[Abe Linkman]

3. Fine. Now about that mush - which it has been claimed...

was buried by the surviors' families. And, the mysterious hand of a child supposedly found in the Pentagon rubble. I assume the gentleman(RH) wants us to believe that the story is true and that the child was one of the passengers on that ill-fated GPS-guided flight from Dulles which eventually self-destructed shortly after Barbara Olson called to ask her husband for advice to the pilot - whom we now know, thanks to boloboffin's tireless research (where he gets that much time, heaven only knows) doesn't seem to have been aware that his aircraft had been hijacked by a GPS-wielding, "boxcutter"-toting maniac, on his way to Glory (and the considerable challenges of 72 vestal virgins).

[DulceDecorum]

4. Faster than a speeding plane

For one employee with Wedge One's mechanical subcontractor John J. Kirlin Inc., Rockville MD, "lucky" is an understatement. "We had one guy who was standing, looking out the window and saw the plane when it was coming in. He was in front of one of the blast-resistant windows," says Kirlin President Wayne T. Day, who believes the window structure saved the man's life.
According to Matt Hahr, Kirlin's senior project manager at the Pentagon, the employee "was thrown about 80 ft down the hall through the air. As he was traveling through the air, he says the ceiling was coming down from the concussion. He got thrown into a closet, the door slammed shut and the fireball went past him," recounts Hahr. "Jet fuel was on him and it irritated his eyes, but he didn't get burned. Then the fireball blew over and the sprinklers came on, and he was able to crawl out of the closet and get out of the building through the courtyard."
http://www.construction.com/NewsCenter/Headlines/DB/20011015h.asp

That polyvinyl butyral film is something else.
Slowed that bad boy right down.
Plane never did catch up with that workman.
The flames tried to get him, but the plane stayed right where it was.

Childress was not at the Pentagon the day a commercial airliner crashed into the section where his new office was located. He was less than a mile away at his new apartment in Crystal City, waiting for his household goods from Hawaii, scheduled to arrive that day, Sept. 11. He was on his balcony at 9:32 a.m. when he heard what he thought was a sonic boom. His windows shook. Then, he heard the ambulances and police sirens, and he knew the sound he heard was not a plane harmlessly breaking the sound barrier, but something that had caused great harm.
He raced to his television and turned it on. What he saw sickened him. His section of the Pentagon lay in ruins, fire and smoke pouring out. He ran to his closet, put on his uniform, and raced off for the Pentagon, but the area around it had been cordoned off. He couldn’t get through.
http://www.christiantimes.com/Articles/Articles%20Oct01/Art_Oct01_17.html

Does anyone know if polyvinyl buyral can be incorporated into servicemen's uniforms?
Me, I want a complete body suit of the stuff and since you can see through it, don't bother making a hole for the eyes. I will wear this frog suit whenever I fly and hijackers with boxcutters be damned. Come near me and I will show you what Kung pao is all about.
Or is that Moo Shoe?

Oh no!
It just hit me.
Barbara was in that plane when it smashed into the window and then stopped abruptly.
She was in the toilet. That means she did not have a seat belt on.
Oh the whiplash!!!

Ooops.
Sorry for being so melodramatic.
I just remembered that the plane did NOT stop outside the Pentagon. It entered the Pentagon and so the whiplash effect on the passengers was minimized.
Whew.

But wait!
What happened to the man in the closet?
Oh, yeah. Sorry. I forgot.
Don't ask, don't tell.

[Abe Linkman]

6. Wherdy proof that Barbara would call a utility knife a "boxcutter"?

Was she from a part of the country where people commonly refer to utility knives as boxcutters? Doesn't "boxcutters" sound more like what a bureaucrat-type person would say?

NOTE: I do not have any evidence that she did or did not say "boxcutters". Further, I don't have any evidence she has ever even spoken on the subject. The closest she's come to anything like that was in "cutting" remarks about Hillary Rodham Clinton.

[DulceDecorum]

10. But the civilian was plane-proof...

Nearly a year after Sept. 11, Stephanie Dunn finally decided to order the autopsy report on her husband, Navy Cmdr. Patrick Dunn, but she already knows he stood directly in the plane's path when it slammed into the Pentagon.
Cmdr. Dunn's black plastic nameplate, which he was wearing on his right breast pocket, bears deep scratches and nicks from the blunt force that hit and killed him that morning.
http://www.naplesnews.com/02/09/naples/d661836a.htm

Plastic, mind you, plastic.

This is so sad.
Two men,
standing right next to each other in front of a window.
The construction worker sees the plane coming in and later crawls out of the closet,
alone.
The man in uniform dies after getting smacked in the right breast pocket,
leaving a woman with an unborn child.....
http://www.euronet.nl/~marbak/rollo/dlyr_mlg.htm

I guess the moral of this sea-shanty is:
Closets save lives;
But only if you get into them.
http://www.construction.com/NewsCenter/Headlines/DB/20011015h.asp

[DulceDecorum]

5. Connect the dots, Condi.

The plan, labeled Project Aphrodite, was tested inconclusively at Air Proving Command in Florida. Essentially, the idea was that a completely stripped-down and explosive-laden B-17 with a crew of two--a pilot and an autopilot technician--would take off from a base in the UK. Once safely in the air, control of the B-17 would be turned over to a mother ship cruising at 20,000 feet, whose crew would fly it by radio signals fed into the B-17's autopilot. The B-17 crew would bail out over England. The mother ship then would fly the bomber, at an altitude of 200 to 400 feet, to the target and dive it into the steel doors. This, of course, was not an "any day" operation. Ceiling--and-visibility--unlimited weather was essential so that the mother ship's crew could follow the progress of its charge.
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0897valor.asp

ON 16 FEBRUARY 2001 the Predator made history by successfully launching the first missile from a UAV. The Hellfire-C laser-guided missile struck a stationary tank, marking the Predator’s evolution from a nonlethal reconnaissance asset to an armed, highly accurate tank killer.5
<snip>
According to the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), one doesn’t need technical miracles to make a UCAV work. The Boeing Company’s Phantom Works Division is drawing on its extensive experience and resources in the areas of manned strike aircraft; weapon systems; surveillance-and-reconnaissance systems; and command, control, communications, and computer technologies
<snip>
UCAVs will range in wingspan from a few feet to 150 feet and will possess maneuver and endurance capabilities that far exceed the limits of the human pilot. UCAVs will have sleek, radar-absorbing bodies; sophisticated onboard computer systems; and the capability to conduct offensive and defensive combat operations.11 UCAVs can and will be containerized for easy storage and deployment. Container interfaces will allow for periodic maintenance monitoring and software updating of the vehicle inside.12 By taking the aircrew out of the cockpit, the United States can avoid what is being called a Gulf War syndrome- a total intolerance by the population of the United States for any casualties. Uninhabited aircraft are a continuation of the great American tradition of substituting technology for human beings.13 UAVs have taken on reconnaissance and surveillance roles, with UCAVs soon to follow in combat-attack operations.
www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/ apj/apj02/sum02/lazarski.doc

[Turbulence]

7. interesting weapons test and stuff

In addition, there is an air-launch concept under consideration. The first stage is a Boeing 747-400 aircraft that takes a solid-fuel rocket to high altitude for firing, a concept first advanced by ATK Thiokol Propulsion and Boeing in mid-2000.

http://www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.html/function/view/categoryid/164/documentid/1673/history/3,656,164,1673

snip
In a repeat performance, the Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL), the jointly developed US-Israeli laser sytem designed to shoot down artillery rockets and cruise missiles, successfully shot down a salvo of two Katyusha rockets at a U.S. testing range.

The test was carried out at the White Sands Missile Range in the New Mexican desert on Friday, September 22. On June 6 the THEL shot down a sole Katyusha and on August 28 it hit two rockets.

The $202 million laser is designed to negate the threat of Katyushas on northern Israel. But as the THEL enters its final phase of developmental testing, American officials are apparently no longer are in a hurry to deploy prototype batteries as currently designed. This has been interpreted that the IDF is not in a hurry to deploy it along the northern border by the end of the year as had originally been expected.

snip

The THEL system includes a laser, pointer-tracker, a fire control radar, and a command center.

The system is expected to be operated by the Israeli air force’s anti-aircraft units, but other than preliminary steps, no serious preparations are said to have been taken to accept the system in the near future, Israeli military sources told the Jerusalem Post.

The laser gun looks like a large spot light. Its command and control center is designed to follow 15 targets simultaneously. According to senior IDF sources, the laser beam needs to stay on the target for at least five seconds for it to be destroyed. If and when it becomes operational, it would be the only weapon like it in the world. With its 10-kilometer range, it is also designed to be used against aircraft, as its laser can turn jet canopies opaque after just one second. However, it requires an enormous amount of electricity.

The U.S. Space and Missile Defense Command and Mafat, the Defense Ministry’s weapons systems development and infrastructure administration, are running the program. Israel is paying for about one third of the costs.

The laser weapon is being built under contract by Cleveland-based TRW Space and Laser Programs Division. Israeli industries involved include Tadiran, IAI, El-Op, Elta, and Rafael. Costs have been shared by the Israeli and American governments.

http://www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.html/function/view/categoryid/152/documentid/1020/history/3,646,152,1020

CBO Offers Five Options For UAV Programs. Aerospace Daily, Oct 19, 1998, pp 103-104

A recent CBO report, "Options For Enhancing The Department Of Defense's Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Programs", notes that DoD has trouble developing and fielding UAV systems. Two UAVs have been deployed or are in production (Pioneer and Predator), and three more are in development (Outrider, Global Hawk, Darkstar). According to CBO, DoD spends about $600m a year on UAV programs.

Descriptors: UAV CBO SASC developing fielding deploy production Pioneer Predator Darkstar Outrider Global Hawk

UPDATE: Oct 23, 1998, No. 04



International Interest. Aerospace Daily, Oct 19, 1998, p 97

Allies have expressed interest in Pentagon efforts to detect threat radars, according to Tony Greico, top electronic warfare official in OSD.

Descriptors: OSD electronic warfare threat radar allies

UPDATE: Oct 23, 1998, No. 05



Mobile Laser. Aerospace Daily, Oct 19, 1998, p 97

The Army is interested in possible future procurement of a mobile version of THEL, which the US and Israel are jointly developing to defend against short range missiles.

Descriptors: THEL Army procurement mobile US Israel short range missile

UPDATE: Oct 23, 1998, No. 06

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/news98/E1023-8.htm

While the military develops new technology to enable it to see the enemy better, it is also looking at applications of light in battlefield situations. Under development by the United States military are such laser weapons as the YAL-1A, a scud-busting weapon, which could destroy missiles as soon as they are launched, and with great accuracy. Programs currently underway are the Airborne Laser Program (ABL), the Space-Based Laser (SBL) and the ground-based Tactical High-Energy Laser (THEL). The ABL program will install a chemical oxygen-iodine laser in a Boeing 747-400. The laser theoretically could strike targets up to 200 miles away by emitting the power equivalent to a small city’s energy usage. The Air Force is planning to have a prototype by 2003. The SBL program is hoping to develop a laser light powerful enough to be effective from space. Such a laser could defend against attack by hostile countries. Finally, the THEL has already progressed to an advanced prototype. This program is aimed at disabling short range, small rockets. The prototype has been able to knock down more than twenty rockets from up to seven miles away.

http://www.nd.edu/~techrev/Archive/Spring2002/a2.html

Everyone is familiar with the Predator drone, particularly after an upper echelon Al Qaida chief was killed by one carrying a Hellfire missile. But more effective drones, called UCAVs, or Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles are on the drawing boards or in prototype testing. Some possible UCAV variants include an unmanned version of the F-16C. Boeing’s X-45A UCAV is under development and has undergone flight testing at Edwards Air Force Base.

It is expected that UCAVs will be able to undertake hazardous missions that a manned aircraft might not be able to survive. Because there is no pilot on board, a UCAV will be able to maneuver at higher speeds and under greater gee loads than is possible with today’s fighter aircraft. A pilot can withstand forces of up to 9 g’s for brief periods of time, the kind of stresses that can occur during combat air maneuvering or defensive maneuvers to avoid enemy ground fire. An unmanned fighter would be able to stand up to g-forces many times that, making it possible to survive attacks from other manned fighters or ground-based antiaircraft missile or gun batteries.

The U.S. Army’s Land Warrior program is set to make Army and Marine ground troops unmatched anywhere in the world. Land Warrior integrates small arms with high tech systems to make combat on the 21st century battlefield a one-sided affair.

"Land Warrior soldiers fight as a system, and the most important part of the system is what's between his ears," says Army Lt. Col. Robert Serino, Land Warrior product manager.

"First and foremost, Land Warrior is a fighting system," Serino said. Land Warrior has several subsystems: the weapon, integrated helmet assembly, protective clothing and individual equipment, computer/radio, and software.

The weapon subsystem is built around the M-16/M-4 modular carbine. It has a laser range finder/digital compass, a daylight video camera, a laser aiming light and a thermal sight.

The Land Warrior system gives the individual soldier information and abilities unlike any seen before, making him or her far more effective in any kind of weather, day or night, in jungle, desert, mountains, or urban combat.

Then there’s THEL, or Tactical High Energy Laser. Used recently to shoot down an incoming artillery shell, THEL changes the entire battlefield landscape. Developed by TRW, the THEL can be used to keep the skies clear of enemy artillery shells, rockets, aircraft, and tactical ballistic missiles. Star Wars lives!

http://weekendpundit.blogmosis.com/lastweekend/005246.html

As a member of a tightly coupled system of systems, the UCAV will work cooperatively with manned systems and exploit the emerging command, control, communications, computer, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (C4ISR) architecture to enable successful achievement of campaign and mission level objectives. Intelligence preparation of the battlefield will provide an initial mission/threat database for mission controllers. Controllers will exploit real-time data sources from the theater information architecture to plan for, and respond to, the dynamically changing battlefield. The UCAV will penetrate enemy IADs and external systems such as the Miniature Air Launched Decoy (MALD) will stimulate potential targets. Sensor cueing and off-board targeting can be provided by national systems or airborne assets in real time and/or UCAVs may be part of multi-ship Time Difference of Arrival (TDOA) targeting architectures. The system will create superior situation awareness by leveraging the many sources of information available at both the tactical and theater levels.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ucav.htm

Miniature Air-Launched Decoy (MALD)

The intent of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) Miniature Air Launched Decoy (MALD) Advanced Concept Technology Demonstration (ACTD) program is to develop a small, low cost, expendable air-launched decoy to enhance the survivability of friendly aircraft and to aid in establishing air superiority by diluting and confusing surface-based and airborne enemy air defense systems. The main objective of the ACTD is to produce a < $30,000 Average Unit Flyaway Price (AUFP) decoy system that will create confusion on the battlefield or "Fog-Of-War."

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/mald.htm

DARPA AND AIR FORCE SELECT BOEING TO BUILD UCAV DEMONSTRATOR SYSTEM

The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and U.S. Air Force today selected The Boeing Company, Phantom Works, Seattle, Wash., and St. Louis, Mo., to continue into the second phase of the Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle (UCAV) Advanced Technology Demonstration (ATD) program. Boeing Phantom Works will design, fabricate and flight test their UCAV demonstrator system in a 42-month, $131 million cost-shared effort. Boeing's Seattle location will be responsible for the mission control system and overall program management, whereas the St. Louis location will have the lead for the air vehicle segment.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/b03241999_bt123-99.htm

[DulceDecorum]

8. HAIR HERE

THE SOUND OF ONE HAND CLAPPING
"Everything around me was burning. Everything was on fire and I didn't even know a way out. It was just my second day there. I hadn't a clue where the closest exit was. I did remember there was a door that I believed let out to a door behind me. I turned and there was a window, so I stepped up on some debris and TRIED TO TAKE MY HAND AND BREAK THE WINDOW BUT IT WAS SHATTERPROOF GLASS. I left a handprint of blood on the window. That's when I realized I was bleeding.
"I started thinking that I was going to die and I called out to Jesus. I spoke to the Lord and said, "I don't believe you brought me here to die like this." As soon as I spoke those words, I heard someone calling out. I said, 'I'm here' and he said, "I can't see you.'
"I said, 'I can't see you either, but we're here. Please keep coming.' The fumes and the smoke were taking a toll, and I bent over coughing. I couldn't talk SO I CLAPPED MY HANDS and kept clapping so he'd find us." I heard a fire extinguisher and for a split second the smoke cleared and I saw a figure. I stepped over some debris, reached through the smoke, and there was a hand reaching back.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2002/n09092002_200209093.html#photos




Sheila Moody tells Joyce Rumsfeld about the soldier, her "angel," who rescued her following the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attack on the Pentagon. Rumsfeld, wife of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, visited Arlington (Va.) Hospital Sept. 13 to thank hospital staff and meet victims receiving treatment. Photo by Jim Garamone. (Click photo for screen-resolution image.



THE INCREDIBLE BURNING HEAD
The 31-year-old computer specialist was working in an office on the first floor of the Pentagon's D ring, less than 100 feet from where American Airlines Flight 77 crashed into the nation's military headquarters. She and six co-workers were scanning CNN online for information on the earlier attack on the World Trade Center, unaware they were about to become part of the story.
Suddenly, there was a loud explosion as Jackson's nightmare became reality.
"The only thing we could see was a great fire ball," Jackson recalls.
The blast raced through the area, scattering equipment and the workers. The fiery heat engulfed Jackson as it filled the room. Struggling to gain her composure SHE WAS UNAWARE HER HAIR WAS ON FIRE.
SEEING HER BURNING HAIR, CO-WORKER STUART FLUKE TORE OFF HIS SHIRT AND SMOTHERED THE FLAMES.
<snip>
Jackson spent THREE DAYS IN INTENSIVE CARE before being moved to Walter Reed to be treated for burns and smoke inhalation.
http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/stripe/6_39/local_news/10754-1.html



ARLINGTON, Va. – The beaming smile of Janice Jackson showed she appreciated the company of Joyce Rumsfeld, who visited Arlington Hospital here SEPTEMBER 13 (while Janice was STILL IN INTENSIVE CARE)to meet those hurt in the terrorist attack on the Pentagon.
<snip>
Jackson, an automation expert and civilian contractor, told how her coworkers helped her and how, as she was escaping the fire, she helped another coworker out of the office. Jackson was burned on her hands, back and head.
http://www.gordon.army.mil/AC/fall01/hospvict.htm



SUGGESTIVE CARE
In the cubicle beside her, Dalisay Olaes panicked. “Tracy and I were holding hands and then everything went dark. I don’t know what happened but all of a sudden she wasn’t there.” Olaes, who is called Day by her friends, screamed for help as she huddled in the corner of her cubicle. From the other side of her cubicle, Spc. Michael Petrovich called to her, trying to calm her down. “He said ‘Day, just keep screaming and I’ll find you,’” Olaes says. Petrovich groped his way to her and told her to hold his belt and follow him as he tried to find a way out.
http://www.govexec.com/features/0902/0902s1.htm




Rumsfeld also visited Dalisay Olaes, a victim being treated in the hospital INTENSIVE CARE UNIT. She escaped the building by following "my specialist." SPC Michael Petrovich, she said, rescued her and led her to an open window. She and LTC Marilyn Wills, now in an adjacent intensive-care-unit room, jumped to safety.
"The colonel said we had to jump or we were going to burn," Olaes said. "I did. I must have nine lives."
http://www.gordon.army.mil/AC/fall01/hospvict.htm



PUBLIC RELATIONS POSTER CHILD
Just like on the battlefield, Keane said, there was terror, desperation, death -- and extraordinary acts of heroism. Army Lt. Col. Marilyn Wills, who later received the Soldier's Medal for heroism and the Purple Heart for her injuries that day, he said, was one example.
"She and a co-worker were knocked to the ground," Keane said. "The fireball came over them, then the smoke. She knew she had to get out. She grabbed her co-worker and put her on her back.
"We estimate she moved (the length of) a football field and a half or two, on her knees before she got to a window," he noted. "She took a computer and busted through the window (YES THE INCREDIBLE PENTA-WINDOW) and pitched her coworker out the second floor. The woman broke both her legs.
"Marilyn had passed another woman en route, whom she knew would perish if she didn't go back and get her," he said. "She went back and put that woman on her back, dragged her down the hallway and pitched her out the window. She broke a leg. Then Marilyn jumped out the window herself.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Feb2002/n02052002_200202051.html
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/America01/DailyNews/am01_pentagon_011102.html

In the second-floor conference room, Marilyn Wills found herself slumped beside a door that opened onto the E Ring corridor, the outermost of the Pentagon's five concentric hallways. She had no memory of crossing the room to reach it; she simply materialized there. The LEFT SIDE OF HER FACE felt burned. HER BANGS WERE SINGED.
http://www.pilotonline.com/special/911/pentagon2.html.

As for Lt. Col. Marilyn Wills, she collapsed in the Pentagon's center courtyard minutes after jumping from the second floor, HER LUNGS CLOGGED WITH SOOT. Once at the hospital, she used sign language to spell out ``Call Kirk.'' Somebody handed her a pen. She wrote her husband's phone number on a paramedic's shirt, then blacked out.
http://www.hamptonroads.com/pilotonline/special/911/pentagon4.html

In her gracious colonial in Mitchellville, Md., Lt. Col. Marilyn Wills is resting reluctantly, two days out of the hospital. Her skin is bruised. She has burns on her shoulder, and HER LEFT ARM IS INJURED.
http://web.dailycamera.com/news/terror/sept01/24wcope.html




Joyce Rumsfeld comforts Army Lt. Col. Marilyn Wills during a visit to victims of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attack on the Pentagon. Rumsfeld, wife of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, visited Arlington (Va.) Hospital Sept. 13 to thank hospital staff and meet victims receiving treatment (IN INTENSIVE CARE.)

U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel Marilyn Wills was presented both the Soldiers’ Medal and the Purple Heart for her heroism above and beyond the call of duty on September 11. After a hijacked airline with 300,000 pounds of jet fuel was used by international terrorists as a weapon to attack the Pentagon, military and civilian personnel alike were left in a state of shock. Without regard for her own life, Lt. Col. Wills aided in the rescue effort by leading a group that was trapped in an inner conference room through the smoke and falling debris to a window. Once there, she helped to lower all individuals out of the second story window and then risked her life by remaining at the window. She used her voice to direct more casualties to the escape route before being ordered to evacuate.
http://www.cs.umb.edu/jfklibrary/pr_pica2002_ceremony.html
http://www.msnbc.com/news/635293.asp


http://www.westa.org/wanews_v4i4.htm

And not only the one lady, but ultimately Wills is credited with helping six others survive... all jumping out of second story window into the arms of people below. SHE SUFFERED TWO COLLAPSED LUNGS, BURNS AND OTHER INJURIES.
But now Marilyn Wills sings and praises God... remembering those who died... but thankful she others, survived.
http://web.ksl.com/dump/news/cc/special/utah_remembers/oneyear_sun0909.php
http://www.bsc.edu/communications/news/active/galaxvi_100902.htm

WAIT WAIT: JESUS WANTS YOU, YES, YOU!
"God, I'm not ready to die yet!" yelled Daniel Nimrod, a combat medic, after a plane crashed into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001. From the rubble that horrible Tuesday, he successfully rescued Lt. Col. Marilyn Wills and Lt. Col. Brian Birdwell, both followers of Jesus Christ.
During the six months following the rescue, Lt. Col. Wills and her husband explained to Daniel how Jesus had rescued them from eternal death. The combat medic listened.
http://www.wwcmagazine.org/2002/sepoct025.html

Nimrod is credited with saving several lives on that day. One person he saved was Lt. Col. Brian Birdwell - the man he saw with his skin burned black. The two are now close friends who stay in touch on a daily basis.
"He's the one who urged me to turn to religion," Nimrod said. "I have since given my life to God."
http://www.okmulgeetimes.com/display/inn_news/979.txt
http://www.the700club.com/living/amazingstories/groundzero/pentagon-brianbirdwell.asp



ABOVE
Brian Birdwell three months after.
Brian Birdwell twelve months after
BELOW


http://www.texlife.org/docs/2002banquet.html



AMEN

[Turbulence]

9. the sound of one hand clapping

I have always liked pondering that sound. is it stifling in here is it that just my imagination?

[DulceDecorum]

18. FACT and fiction

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, pre-ops and post ops,
here is a photo of a REAL burn victim.

This article was posted on March 29, 2002.
The man experienced twenty minutes of fire in a vehicle in 1996.
2002 - 1996 = 6 years.
For six years this man has been healing and THAT is what he looks like under his mask.





His burns disfigured his face so badly that they made fellow diners at his regular restaurant uncomfortable, and he was asked not to come back. Alexander, now 60, retreated to his home, partially blinded and disfigured "like a freak in a sideshow," he said, despite at least 38 surgeries.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/primetime/DailyNews/primetime_020328_behindthemask_feature.html

P.S. NO HAIR

On edit:
Here is a REAL ACCOUNT of burn trauma.
The incident occured on August 23, 1999.

December 5th, 1999 - She was released from the hospital and was flown to Houston where she was met at the airport.
The story from here on out is quite different than what is written above. I now get to have "hands-on" experience (literally!), not just watching the nurses take care of her. I change the dressings daily, take her to physical therapy at the hospital three times a week, and still try to maintain my own family life and job.
To take care of a burn survivor is indeed time consuming, to say the least. It is also physically and emotionally exhausting, both for the survivor and for the caretaker. I cried almost daily, but I attempted not to do it in front of her. Sometimes it could not be avoided.
I cannot believe what fire can do to a human being. I also cannot believe how much strength a person must have in order to cope with such a life-changing injury. My heart goes out to all people who have had the misfortune to endure such a catastrophic event. However, as a co-survivor myself, my heart goes out to their families as well. For they, too, have suffered a life-changing event.
http://www.burnsurvivorsonline.com/stories/The_Other_Side.asp

[Bolo Boffin]

19. So only those disfigured as badly as Mr. Alexander...

...are real burn victims? Anyone claiming to be burned who can't produce burn scars as severe as that is obviously lying?

Is that your logic here? I'm just trying to help reduce the argument to an easy to understand format, cherie.

:loveya:

[DulceDecorum]

31. We realise

that DARPA has been working on many projects to make the GI Joe a more lethal fighting unit.
We commend them on their new fire-proof model soldier.

According to published accounts, Mr. Alexander was FAR less severely burned than any one of our Penta-heroes.
Mr. Alexander, however, was not fire-reistant.

[crispy]

49. Who cares?

What are you trying to prove? Are you suggesting that the burn victims are lying about what happened? Why would they do that? What scenario do you think occurred?

[DulceDecorum]

51. I am only trying to prove

that regular people on regular days experience burns in a certain way.

On September 11, 2001 MANY MANY anomalies occured.
One of the anomalies pertains to the burns that the Pentagon survivors experienced.
On any other day, a person doused with jet fuel and then subjected to several minutes of 1,000 degree heat, would have lost hair, clothing, skin, and their life.
But September 11, was different.

You asked what I think.
It does not matter one whit what I think.
Never did.
What matters is WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.
And that is why we are examining this, and other anomalies very very carefully.

[acerbic]

52. Blah blah blah...

On any other day, a person doused with jet fuel and then subjected to several minutes of 1,000 degree heat, would have lost hair, clothing, skin, and their life.
But September 11, was different.

So tell who according to "the official version" was doused with jet fuel and then subjected to several minutes of 1,000 degree heat and didn't lose their hair, clothing, skin and life and provide a reference to where exactly "the official version" claims so? You can't? That "official version" is all just in your imagination and this thread as so many before is only completely worthless waste of bandwidth (except more disgusting in whole new ways)? Ok.

[DulceDecorum]

53. Oh la la

YOU do some work for a change and tell ME who, of the Pentagon survivors wasn't.

[acerbic]

54. So no answers. What a surprise...

The standard method of the most vocal and the most irrelevant theorists:

Make some ridiculous BS up all by yourself ranting that it's "the official version".
"Debunk" that product of your own imagination and declare glorious victory.
Repeat ad infinitum ad nauseam.

:boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:

[DulceDecorum]

56. Insults but NO FACTS

WHY DID the hair NOT burn, acerbic.
Stick to the HAIR.
WHY DO THEY HAVE HAIR????????

You must hold me in VERY high regard indeed.
"Make some ridiculous BS up all by yourself"
As if DulceDecorum came up with all the published accounts.
As if DulceDecorum wrote the book on keratin.

Your insults are boring.
And so is the fact that
YOU STILL CANNOT TELL US WHY THEY HAVE HAIR.

[acerbic]

57. No facts indeed, only imagination

"Make some ridiculous BS up all by yourself"
As if DulceDecorum came up with all the published accounts.

A simple question unanswered: from which "published account" are you pretendng to have got this BS:

"a person doused with jet fuel and then subjected to several minutes of 1,000 degree heat"

or is it only made up by you?

[DulceDecorum]

58. Jet fuel, heat, and now answer me about the HAIR

You may have heard about President Bush visiting patients after the terrorist attack and the story of him saluting a burn patient…and then holding the salute when he noticed the patient struggling to salute in return. That patient was Brian, though he doesn't remember it well because of the massive amount of drugs he was on by that time.
<snip>
Once they stabilized Brian, they transferred him to George Washington Hospital where...the best, cutting edge burn doctor in the U.S. The doctor told him that had he not gone to Georgetown first, he probably would not have survived because of the JET FUEL IN HIS LUNGS.
http://www.aog.usma.edu/Class/1961/BirdwellLuncheon.htm


“The miracle of surviving the initial blast and not being instantly killed, and then the miracle of being able to escape from my space is just, that's how it is, it's a miracle,” says Lieutenant Kevin Shaeffer.
<snip>
“My whole body was just DOUSED WITH JET FUEL,” says Shaeffer.
Still wrapped in burn garments today…
(article posted: WASHINGTON, Sept. 11, 2002)
“I ingested the jet fuel into my lungs and immediately thereafter everything exploded and I was set ablaze,” he says.
Of 30 people in his office, he was the sole survivor, crawling out through a hole blasted by the airplane turned missile.


http://www.purdue.edu/PER/f02.R&I.html





“Next memory I have is a vision of, I'll call him my angel because to me he was very angel-like that day,” says Shaeffer.
Army Sgt. Steve Workman, frantically looking for survivors had found none - until he stumbled on Shaeffer.
“His hands were covered with blood and his arms, the skin was just literally hanging off his arms,” says Workman. “He looked at me. You could tell he was scared and obviously burned. The first thing that he said to me was: please don't let me die. And you know, when he made contact to me eye to eye, it wasn't going to happen. I just, whatever it was going to take, it was going to happen.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/11/earlyshow/main521568.shtml

January 29, 2002
SUSAN DENTZER: Besides the burns, Shaeffer also had devastating damage to his respiratory tract, thought to have been caused when he inhaled jet fuel. Hospitalized until mid December, and in intensive care for weeks, Shaeffer was twice on the verge of death, says his physician, Dr. Marion Jordan
<snip>
SUSAN DENTZER: It's clear that the first thing a burn does is damage the skin. In what's called a first-degree burn, for example, a sunburn, only the outermost layer, the epidermis, is harmed. That type of burn usually heals itself without incident. By contrast, a second-degree burn, such as the kind that may take place in a kitchen accident, destroys the epidermis and exposes the second layer of skin, the dermis. Then there are THIRD DEGREE BURNS, LIKE THOSE SUFFERED BY MOST OF THE PENTAGON VICTIMS.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-june02/burns_1-29.html

The firemen were appreciative, as the heat inside the building generated from the 8,500 gallons of jet fuel was, in their words, “unbelievable.” It was reported that AT LEAST THREE OF THE FIREMEN HAD TO BE GIVEN IV FLUIDS DUE TO THE EXTREME HEAT.
http://www.coping.org/911/survivor/pentagon.htm

Sept. 11, 2002
“I WAS IN THE SAME FIRE, BREATHED THE SAME SMOKE AND FUMES AND I WAS ENGULFED BY THE SAME HEAT,”
Moody says, speaking by telephone Monday from her desk at the Pentagon. “Yet I live to see another day with only burns and scars. God is almighty!”
<snip>
“A burst of hot air hit my face,” Moody said. “It was so powerful that I shut my eyes. When I opened them, a ball of fire passed right next to me. It was so close, I could have stuck my arm out and touched the flames.”
Still, Moody remained seated at her desk. After the explosion, there was only quiet and the stink of jet fuel, she said. Burning office fixtures created a trap — there was no obvious way out for the two women in an office where
THE FIRE'S TEMPERATURE REACHED 1,600 degrees.
<snip>
Outside the Pentagon, she saw Kurtz sitting in the back of a police car. SHE APPEARED TO BE BURNED BUT LOOKED OK, Moody said.
<snip>
With EVERY KEYSTROKE in her Pentagon cubicle, Moody’s DAMAGED HANDS remind her of what occurred one year ago.




“You hear a lot about survivors of the deceased, but not a whole lot about those who were disfigured and maimed and injured so severely,” Moody said. “Their lives will go on but a day won’t go by that they won’t look in the mirror and see what’s been done to them.”
http://www.uticaod.com/news/specialreports/911anniversary/sept11/moody.htm


http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=1494


"Then I was blown to the floor from the back, and I knew I was on fire," he recalled. "I remember rolling on the floor, rubbing my hands on my head, and it felt slick. I learned later that was jet fuel. I stood up, and everything around me was blown to bits. There were flames and heavy smoke everywhere. I just knew I had to get out of there very fast."
<snip>
"My arms were outstretched, the skin was hanging off and - this stands out - I kept thinking of that famous photo of the Vietnamese girl in the war, after she was hit by napalm," he said. "I thought: `I'm as helpless as that girl.'"
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/6702124.htm




"My hands were badly burned," he said. "My arms were very badly burned. I knew I needed help."
A nurse assessed his condition in the emergency room. At some point she may have said Shaeffer was burned about 50 percent, but what he heard was that his chances were 50 percent.
<snip>
"I grabbed that nurse by the shirt. I pulled her close. I told her, 'You don't understand. I'm alive. I'm alive. I made it. I'm going to live.' She said, 'Yes, Kevin. You are. You are.
"After that I remember them working quite hard on my hands. I had my wedding ring on my left and my academy ring on my right. The doctor called out for a ring cutter. I made them stop, the entire team. … I managed to pull my wedding band off. I eventually pulled my class ring off. I handed them … to the doctor. I laid back. I said, 'Now you can go ahead - do what you've got to do. Save my life.
http://www.militarycity.com/sept11/shaeffer.html

http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=17
Don't forget to click on the
PENTAGON OFFICE DAMAGE link
so that you can witness for yourself
the absolutely HORRIFIC FIRE DAMAGE inflicted to this area.
Oh, the inhumanity...

[acerbic]

59. First show the other part of your imagined claim:

"a person doused with jet fuel and then subjected to several minutes of 1,000 degree heat"

“My whole body was just DOUSED WITH JET FUEL,” says Shaeffer.
Still wrapped in burn garments today…
(article posted: WASHINGTON, Sept. 11, 2002)

Assuming that the article exists: now tell where you get that Shaeffer was "subjected to several minutes of 1,000 degree heat"?

[DulceDecorum]

61. I see your ploy and raise your HAIR

Read that post again:
Sheila Moody and Louise Kurtz are not good enough for you?
Or you think that the air conditioning in the Naval Command Center was going at full blast?

LOCATION ESTABLISHED

http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=140

Kevin Shaeffer, 30, SAT NEXT TO PATRICK DUNN in the Navy Command Center. Shaeffer was the only one of 30 people in that office to survive. He also says ''my Navy family'' was ''absolutely vital.'' Officials gave his wife, Blanca, a Navy lieutenant like him, months of paid leave to be at his side at Washington Hospital Center's burn unit. A Navy official was always in the waiting room ''as a shoulder to cry on,'' he says.
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/pdunn.htm


TEMPERATURE ESTABLISHED

First-floor columns 5M, 5N, 3M, and 3N—located in Ring C, toward the end of the damage path—sustained thermal damage in the form of longitudinal cracks and corner spalling. Some sections of the columns appeared blackened, probably as a result of direct exposure to flame caused by partial loss of interior finishes. IT TOOK A LITTLE MORE THAN ONE HOUR OF EXPOSURE TO ISO 834—AT A CORESSPONDING AMBIENT TEMPERATURE OF ABOUT 1,740°F (950°C)—FOR THE LONGITUDINAL CRACKS AND CORNER SPALLING TO DEVELOP IN LABATRORY TEST COLUMNS. This indicates that the temperature of the fire at this location might have reached a similar level.
http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0203feat.html


TIME ESTABLISHED

TEN MINUTES after a hijacked American Airlines jet ripped into the Pentagon last Sept. 11, a large section of the vast office building was in shreds. Fires raged along the path the airliner had cored through the first floor. Dozens of concrete columns had been vaporized, leaving the four floors above without support and doomed to collapse. The wreckage was strewn with the dead and dying.
In the first-floor Navy Command Center, Lt. Kevin Shaeffer bellied under a drapery of hanging wires, their popping and hissing loud in his ears. He was so confident he would be electrocuted that he was baffled when he realized he was past them. He lurched down a pile of wreckage and saw that the smoke before him seemed backlit, and that it brightened further as he passed through a hole in the Command Center's back wall, into a room he'd never seen before, filled with overturned desks and smashed computers. He climbed over the desks and through another hole, and into the golden sunshine of a clear September morning.
Shaeffer stood on a service road that circled the Pentagon between the B and C rings. A chunk of the 757's nose cone and front landing gear lay on the pavement a few feet away, resting against the B Ring wall. For a second it seemed he had left his body and was watching the scene from above: He saw himself stagger from the smoke and over the broken rock piled outside the opening, arms outstretched, eyes shut and mouth agape in pain and shock and horror. Just like that little girl in Vietnam, after the napalm attack, he thought. I look just like her.
http://www.hamptonroads.com/pilotonline/special/911/pentagon3.html

And next we shall establish the fact that
acerbic is NEVER GOING TO TELL US HOW COME THEY HAVE HAIR.

[acerbic]

62. Nothing in any of that says that just Shaeffer was

"subjected to several minutes of 1,000 degree heat".

Burning buildings are not evenly heated ovens: in reality (ever heard of it?) there are flames here and there and shooting about, some spots hotter than others etc. so if there was over 1000 degrees there somewhere, it simply doesn't mean that it was the same temperature everywhere and all the time. Duh.

[DulceDecorum]

64. That's why he has frostbite

Duh
His skin was damaged, how come the HAIR was left intact?

OK people,
we have proved beyond all shadow of reasonable doubt that
acerbic, lared and Boloboffin
are totally UNABLE to explain how it is that
the survivors of the fire that raged in the Pentagon on September 11, 2001,
ALL emerged from the building with a full head of HAIR.
And eyebrows.
And eyelashes, yes even Juan Cruz-Santiago.
And moustaches, yes even the ladies.

This thread,
this one FACT,
in one fell swoop,
damages,
if not outright destroys,
all credibility.

The Pentagon Survivors claim to have experienced burns so deep as to have damaged muscle but show little or no sign of skin trauma and almost no sign of having damaged any hair follicles.

They had hair on September 10th,
they had hair when they were photographed in Intensive Care,
they had hair when they returned home and
they have hair now.

And no-one knows how this is possible.
It is a Pentanomaly.

[acerbic]

65. Blather, rinse, repeat

That's why he has frostbite

The standard method of the most vocal and the most irrelevant theorists:

Make some ridiculous BS up all by yourself ranting that it's "the official version".
"Debunk" that product of your own imagination and declare glorious victory.
Repeat ad infinitum ad nauseam.

:boring:

[DulceDecorum]

66. WHY DOES HE HAVE HAIR?

you can't answer that can you?

All you can do is sneer.
All you can do is whine rinse and repeat
because you
CANNOT
SIMPLY CANNOT ANSWER THE QUESTION
Why do they have hair.

Never could tell us why they have fire-proof hair.
Never will tell us why the hair did not burn.

THE HAIR, acerbic, the HAIR.
Is proof to your acid-tongued self.
The Pentagon Survivors came out of blazing building with
ALL THEIR HAIR.

And you can't do anything about it.
No wonder you are :grr:

[LARED]

67. And no-one knows how this is possible.

Sadly everyone knows how this is possible except you. A few have even taken some time to explain the most blatantly basic, obvious, self-evident reasons that people who get burned can still have hair, but you refuse to see.

[DulceDecorum]

68. WHEN did you EVER explain?

All I remember seeing was acerbic posting this in #21
http://images.google.com/images?q=burn+victim&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search

It turned out to have a LOT of special effects simulated burns.
It also had some REAL burn victims although there were VERY few of those.
It also had some Hiroshima atomic bomb burn victim pictures.
Some Hiroshima people had hair.
I did not discuss this, out of respect for the reality of their experience, and also because the Pentagon was NOT subjected to nuclear attack.

Lared, I am ready to wager beaucoup bucks that you do not personally know anyone who has experienced major burn trauma.
DulceDecorum, on the other hand can identify a REAL burn victim at ten paces.
And DulceDecorum has given up on you EVER coming up with ANY rational explanation as to
WHY the Pentagon Survivors NEVER lost their hair.

"Sadly everyone knows how this is possible except you. A few have even taken some time to explain the most blatantly basic, obvious, self-evident reasons that people who get burned can still have hair, but you refuse to see."

Lared, let me reiterate my position for the umpteenth time.

Second-degree burns affect both the outer-layer (epidermis) and the under lying layer of skin (dermis) causing redness, pain, swelling and blisters. These burns often affect sweat glands, and HAIR FOLLICLES.
If a deep second-degree burn is not properly treated, swelling and decreased blood flow in the tissue can result in the burn becoming a third-degree burn.
http://www.burnsurvivor.com/burn_types_second.html

Third-degree burns affect the epidermis, dermis and hypodermis, causing charring of skin or a translucent white color, with coagulated vessels visible just below the skin surface. These burn areas may be numb, but the person may complain of pain. This pain is usually because of second-degree burns. HEALING FROM THIRD-DEGREE BURNS IS VERY SLOW DUE TO THE SKIN TISSUE AND STRUCTURES BEING DESTROYED. THIRD-DEGREE BURNS USUALLY RESULT IN EXTENSIVE SCARRING.
http://www.burnsurvivor.com/burn_types_third.html
http://www.burnsurvivor.com/burn_types.html

There are three major types of burn related scars: Keloid, Hypertrophic and Contractures.
http://www.burnsurvivor.com/scar_types.html

Burns are one of the most expensive catastrophic injuries to treat. For example, a burn of 30% of total body area can cost as much as $200,000 in initial hospitalization costs and for physicians fees. For extensive burns, there are additional significant costs which will include costs for repeat admission for reconstruction and for rehabilitation.
http://www.burnsurvivor.com/burn_statistics.html

Tell us again Lared, how it is that the Pentagon Survivors show little to no sign of scars and how come they ALL still have HAIR?

(Don't worry folks, I am NOT holding my breath.)

[LARED]

69. A betting man?

Lared, I am ready to wager beaucoup bucks that you do not personally know anyone who has experienced major burn trauma.

Actually I have a friend that was severely burned as a child (10 or so) by gasoline. I would guess 25 to 30 percent of his body was burned. His arms, chest, neck and stomach had third degree burns that required skin grafts. Thankfully he has had a complete recovery and amazingly enough has a full head of hair (until he started to go bald).

BTW I'm not a betting man. So you can save your bluster for someone that gives a rats rear end.

DulceDecorum, on the other hand can identify a REAL burn victim at ten paces.

You have displayed vast expertize on the subject of posting pictures of burn victim. If it make you happy I am duly impressed with your ability in this department.

And DulceDecorum has given up on you EVER coming up with ANY rational explanation as to WHY the Pentagon Survivors NEVER lost their hair.

That is painfully obvious.

[DulceDecorum]

70. Case closed

NO EXPLANATION.

[LARED]

71. I give up.

DD if you're comfortable with the make believe world you created to ensure the reality of the attack on the Pentagon never intrudes your consciouses - enjoy.

[DulceDecorum]

72. Hair, Lared, Hair

How did you get this:

"DD if you're comfortable with the make believe world you created to ensure the reality of the attack on the Pentagon never intrudes your consciouses - enjoy."

when all I asked you was to explain HOW a person could go through through a blaze of that magnitude and yet emerge perfectly coiffed?

The discussion is about HAIR, Lared, HAIR.

You know what hair is.
Or so at we all thought, until you told us that your own hair does not burn at temperatures of 350 degrees and under.

But I am glad to see that you have officially admitted that
you CANNOT explain HOW
ALL the Pentagon Survivors have maintained intact hair follicles
despite experiencing THIRD degree burns.

When the average person goes in for chemotherapy they lose their hair.
It is NOT the fault of DulceDecorum that this happens and we should NOT be so squeamish as to avoid discussing actual facts.
If someone figured out a way to prevent this from happening,
and shared that information,
there are SO MANY people who would be SO VERY grateful,
but the way it stands today,
cancer patients undergoing chemo lose hair.
It is an unfortunate fact but it is true.
And everybody knows it.

Burn survivors lose hair in a fire and very frequently also lose the ability to grow hair on the part that was burned.
Unless, of course, they happen to be survivors of the fire that raged in the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, 2001.
Those people are different.
They are in a class all their own.
They are special.
Which is why they received medals.
And if you do not agree with THAT, then you can only be suffering from a Thawful case of dementia Pentagonia.

Dementia Americana -- an affliction, resulting in temporary insanity, affecting the American male whose wife's purity is violated.
Dementia Pentagonia -- an affliction, resulting in temporary insanity and partial blindness, affecting certain Americans when Pentagon security is violated.

[LARED]

73. How did you get this?

Easy. The fact that people survived the Pentagon attack with hair even if they were burned is surprising only to you. You and you alone are the Don Quixote of the notion that the victims in the Pentagon are just props for the camera. You maintain this even though no one but you advocates this position, you have absolutely no evidence that these people were subjected to sufficient temperature for a long enough time to have burned off their hair. You have no evidence that any of the images or stories are fabricated, you have no evidence of anything to support your claims.

Because of this I can only conclude that you are either pretending you believe this nonsense or you have completely isolated yourself from reality. Your somewhat manic responses indicate the later.

DD, get professional help.

[DulceDecorum]

75. And they STILL have hair

even if I am totally crazy,
THEY ALL STILL HAVE HAIR.
HAIR.
HAIR.
HAIR.
HAIR.
And don't you forget it baby.



HAIR



Human Hair Is Highly Flammable
The first fallacy becomes obvious through observation of Wan Jindong's hair. Human hair is highly flammable, burning extremely quickly. In fact hair will burn totally within just a few seconds if not extinguished immediately. However, in the video of the alleged self-immolation, it is apparent that Wang Jindong's hair had no damage from the fire at all, while his face appeared to be burned to an ashen gray color. Sources producing this video would like people to believe that the flames have burned his face, yet the most flammable part of the body, the hair, remains intact. According to the report, the policemen extinguished the flames in less than a minute. It would have been impossible for the hair to escape total damage in the high intensity of the alleged gasoline flame. Careful examination of this video also shows the hairline was extremely neat and trimmed which could not have occurred had he been on-fire. Additionally, the eyebrows on Jindong's face were not even burned!
This evidence demonstrates that Wang Jindong could not possibly have ignited himself but leaves many doubts and several possibilities of what might have occurred. He may have been made-up to appear to have been burned. Or, Wang Jindong might have used some special fuel, like stage props used for movies or theatre, that enabled him to escape physical damage but provided a show of life-like flames for the video. Another possibility is that Wang Jindong's hair is not real but rather a wig.
In the scene where Liu Chunling is beat to death, we can see her hair burning. This means that the amount of time she was burning was very short - it could not have been more than several seconds. However the impatient policemen started to extinguish the fire from the onset of the flames. If they attempted to extinguish the flame that quickly, she could not possible have died from the fire, as they would have been able to put-out the flames before fatal injury occurred. However, because they did not want her to live, they resorted to extreme force and beat her in the head with a very heavy object, under the guise of extinguishing the fire.
http://www.clearharmony.net/articles/200109/1165.html


Oxygen-Enriched (Flammable) Atmospheres
When the oxygen level exceeds 23.5% by volume, a different danger presents itself. Known as an oxygen-enriched atmosphere, this condition represents a serious fire hazard. Flammable materials like clothing and hair will burn very rapidly in an oxygen-enriched atmosphere.
http://www.sorm.state.tx.us/VolumeThree/2Chapter7/3276.htm


Title: A Comparison of the Burning Rate of Hair and Paper
Student Researcher: Audrey E. Steele
School: South Hill Elementary
Ithaca, New York
Grade: 5
Teacher: Iva Lesky
I. Statement of Purpose and Hypothesis

I want to know which would burn faster, hair or paper. My
hypothesis state that the hair will burn faster because it is
thinner. The paper will burn slower because it is thicker.
II. Methodology
I cut some dog hair and put it on a plate. Then I put some paper
on a plate. My next step was to burn them and then watch to see
which burned fastest.
III. Analysis of Data
I watched both plates. The hair did burn faster and the paper
did burn slower.
IV. Summary and Conclusion
I fond out that hair does burn faster because it is thinner. The
hair also gives off a stinky smell.
http://www.youth.net/nsrc/sci/sci.008.html


Details: When Joan is being burned at the stake, her dress and feet begin to burn, but her hair doesn't burn. Anyone should know that hair will burn sooner than skin or clothing.
http://www.nitpickers.com/movies/nitpicks/10000/9100.shtml


Oh Dear.
I hope Lared doesn't come back at me for that one.
That bit only happened in the movie.
In real life Joan DIED of her burn injuries.
And no, she did not have any hair left.

[Abe Linkman]

74. What's it all about, DD?

I know that you are making a point, but I'm not getting it. There was a fire in the Pentagon, and a lot people got hurt, or worse. Would you mind elaborating on the implications of people getting burned but not losing their hair.

Thank you.

[DulceDecorum]

76. HOW

can you burn your skin right off
and burn the muscle
and STILL have hair growing
on the skin you just burned right off?

How can you take your socks off and STILL have your shoes on?

If your house burnt down to the ground, would your furniture and clothing still be sitting nicely where you left them?
If your stuff was OK, believe me when I say that the insurance firm would not pay you one penny until they figured out how that came to be.

Ever do any baking?
Well think of it this way:
suppose it got so very hot in the oven that the pan melted away.
Suppose it got so very hot that the oven itself melted away.
Suppose you went and had a look and found your cake batter still raw.
How could that be?

You have heard of cakes burning but when did you ever hear of the pan melting clean away?
And what kind of heat would melt the oven?
And how could the batter possibly remain raw under such conditions?
How?

Ever do any grilling?
Suppose the grill got so hot that all the metal melted clean away leaving the still-raw patties lying on the charcoal briquettes.
How is that possible?

Suppose a tractor-trailer hit your compact car and scrunched up the inside of the vehicle but left the outside showroom clean.
HOW can that happen?

And HOW can the survivors of the Pentagon fire STILL have HAIR?

See Post #12

[Abe Linkman]

77. You mean, THAT'S IT?

That's your entire point? That people in a fire get burned? So, if those folks were in the Pentagon and if they truly did get burned their hair would have gotten burned? THAT'S IT? All this time, I thought you were trying to make some other point - like maybe that those people actually weren't in the Pentagon or weren't in the part of the building where the action took place on 9-11 or that there never was a fire there or ______.

I like you a lot, but this one is more than enough to make me wish I had some 90 proof noive tonic close at hand (say, 10 paces away).

[DulceDecorum]

78. The devil is in the details

Ever watched Columbo?
Ever read the memoirs of Sherlock Holmes?
Details, my friend, details.

"You have explained all but one thing," cried the Colonel. "Where was the horse?"
"Ah, it bolted, and was cared for by one of your neighbors. We must have an amnesty in that direction, I think. This is Clapham Junction, if I am not mistaken, and we shall be in Victoria in less than ten minutes. If you care to smoke a cigar in our rooms, Colonel, I shall be happy to give you any other details which might interest you."
http://www.geocities.com/fa1931/british/conandoy/blaze.html


The entire point of this particular thread is that the Pentagon Survivors did NOT get their hair burned.
Nothing more than that.

But if you can explain WHY they did not get their hair burned,
I will personally polish your shoes for a week.

PS. Enjoy your drink.

[Abe Linkman]

79. Well, I give up. You tell ME.

In a long ago alleged Gov't conspiracy during Watergate, it was said that a United Airlines plane crashed at Chicago (with Mrs. E. Howard Hunt and many other curious passengers aboard) as the result of a fire or "electrical problem" or some such...and several Federal agents of one kind or another supposedly walked off the plane unscathed by the fire, clothed in asbesto suits, as I recall the story, told by "Shoirman" Shaman Skolnick.

As a say, that was a right good wileygo and I believe asbestos is no longer considered a fashionable material for manly stylin'. (nor womanly)

[DulceDecorum]

101. Wherdy go?

Read this briefing and then see if it makes sense to you in context of this thread.

First of all, Rumsfeld says that the body count being reported is very high.
Then he tells the military servicemen and women to keep their mouths shut.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2001/t09122001_t0912sd.html

Many people have said that they were burned at the Pentagon on that day.
Remember, as you examine the evidence,
the HAIR is ALWAYS the first to go.

Look at this account of the casualities:
http://espanol.gwhospital.com/p3620.html

September 12, 2001
Arlington, VA - - - Tuesday, September 11, 2001, Virginia Hospital Center – Arlington treated 44 victims from the Pentagon attack, the largest number sent to any hospital in the area, and an additional 10 survivors were treated at our Arlington Urgent Care Center. Patients included Pentagon personnel (both military and civilian), as well as rescue workers who were injured during recovery efforts. There were no fatalities and patients were treated for a variety of medical conditions including critical burns, debilitating smoke inhalation, various orthopedic injuries, as well as cuts and abrasions.
http://www.virginiahospitalcenter.com/tier3_cd.cfm?folder_id=145&content_item_id=52

An eternity seemed to pass while we waited for those who never arrived, for those who didn’t walk away from the scene. In all we treated 20 patients that day, 10 directly injured in the attack on the Pentagon and we assisted more than a hundred who passed through our doors to use our phones, calm themselves and watch the television coverage.
http://www.virginiahospitalcenter.com/tier3_cd.cfm?folder_id=151&content_item_id=191

Feerick: We probably had 150 medical personnel on the site at one time. Before we were through, CAPT Frost had built himself a fleet hospital down in that underpass. You could have done open heart surgery. Later on, I brought the EMS director who was then in charge down to see what we had. He looked at what CAPT Frost had set up and said, "There is no way I am going to change this. Leave it as it is." He agreed with me that it was safe and secure, totally well organized. Had we actually had livable casualties, it would have been the busiest place in town.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq87-7b.htm



Red Cross workers prepare to accept the casualities from the Pentagon terrorist attack in the gym on Henderson Hall near the Pentagon.
http://www.mdw.army.mil/news/news_photos/911/pages/HendersonHall.html

Can you think of any explanation that will account for both the presence of hair and the absence of casualities?

[LARED]

11. DD

I'm trying hard to figure out your point(s) in the above meandering subject matter. For those of us not quite up to the task of interpreting this eclectic mishmash of posts can you please provide a a few (hopefully link free) sentences that highlight your overall point or points you are trying to make?

There must be some rhyme or reason to it.

[DulceDecorum]

12. Fire burns hair

Then it starts to hurt the skin.
Then the skin gets burned.
Then the flesh gets burned.
Then the muscle gets burned.
Then the bones begin to suffer.

But first and foremost, the hair is the first to go.

If you lean over the backyard grill you can easily lose a eyebrow or a few tendrils if you have long hair.
This can happen without you experincing any pain whatsoever or having any sign of a first degree burn.
As a matter of fact, in some places, hot ash is the depilatory of choice.

In the photos above, our Penta-heroes all have hair despite the fact that they are all lying up in the Intensive Care section of the Burns Ward due being toasted by the fire started by Flight 77.
Several of them even claim to have had jet fuel on their bodies and having been inside the intial "fireball" when the vapour exploded in a flashover.

And yet,
like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego,
NONE of them lost a single hair.

Ever poured lighter fluid on a hamburger patty and lit it?
Try it sometime.
And tell me what the patty looks like afterwards, especially if it is wrapped in a synthetic blend fabric at the time of ignition.

I am saying that somebody somewhere is lying.
And the photographs above are proof positive.
If they had truly been inside a blaze then their penta-hair would have been burned off and this would be plain to see in the photographs.
Their skin would also look pretty bad too.
A REAL burn victim would look like the people in that disco in Rhode Island.
Those civilians do not look so good and they will continue to need medical care for a long long time.
Unlike our photogenic "witnesses" who can still see despite the contact lenses that melted onto the eyeball and can still travel around giving speeches despite the superheated toxins that they inhaled while standing.

[LARED]

13. I was afraid that was your theory

Sorry I asked.

[DulceDecorum]

14. Not half as sorry

as the lot who just got fired for leaving that piece of conclusive proof lying around.

Notice how quiet and peaceful it is around here lately......

[LARED]

15. I'll bite

What are you talking about?

[Abe Linkman]

16. they're in rehearsal

Might be the date, or the cell phone in a crate story, or the naughty person who talked about a "Northwoods" style scenario for 9-11, or who knows what else.

[DulceDecorum]

17. Hair Today

Memories of Sept. 11, 2001, will stay with survivors for decades to come. Here are the stories of three men who were at the Pentagon during the attacks. Army Col. Scott T. Forster, director of the operations and gaming division of the U.S. Army War College's Center for Strategic Leadership, is scheduled to speak at a commemoration ceremony today at Carlisle Barracks. Lt. Col. John Nelson and Chris Westergard, a civilian worker for the Air Force, are students at the war college.
http://www.cumberlink.com/articles/2003/09/11/news/news02.txt

Ah, the War College.
War Games.
How appropriate that they are the ones chosen to speak about their hairy experience.

Ten badly burned people were taken to the center on Sept. 11. Nine survived. The last to be released went home Dec. 18. All are still receiving medical care.
http://www.boston.com/news/packages/sept11/anniversary/wire_stories/0911_pentagon_survivors.htm

September 11 to December 18.
That means that they recieved less than four months of care.
Fewer than one hundred days.
Somebody better tell the Shriners that they have no clue about running Burn Hospitals.
Their clientele remains in treatment for YEARS.


Yates, now 52, was critically injured, with 35 percent of his body burned, the worst wounds on his hands and arms.
In February 2002, (FOUR MONTHS LATER) he walked haltingly back into the Pentagon to do his job again, wearing Dockers and a collared shirt, with his security badge dangling around his neck. He trembled on the way to his relocated office.
<snip>

Two years ago, Brian Birdwell could not use a toilet, eat a meal, even talk. Now he pushes his aching 41-year-old body through a morning jog that takes him from the grounds of the Pentagon to the Lincoln Memorial.
Every day without fail, he is out of breath. His still-wounded arms throb. He is forced to slow to a walk at some point. But the workout is important to getting beyond his physical limitations. "It's a huge amount of progress," he said.
On. Sept. 11, 2001, Birdwell could not even stand. More than 60 percent of his body was burned, with the worst injuries on his arms and hands, which are grafted from the armpits down. Cruelly, each skin graft requires removing skin from an unharmed part of the body.
More than 30 surgeries later, Birdwell has regained some of his former appearance, including a full head of brown hair. Still, his wife, Mel, notices how people sometimes stare. His ears, about half their normal size, appear almost melted. His face and neck are ridged with scar tissue. His arms do not bend normally. Neither do his hands.
<snip>
After two years, in fact, Birdwell came to believe his injuries might
He and his wife have started a faith-based nonprofit organization, Face the Fire, to help burn patients across the country and deliver a Christian message.
be useful, not just painful.
http://www.tbbmedia.com/press_release.asp?sID=53
Last week they met with trauma workers in El Paso. Today they are invited speakers at a church in Orlando.
http://www.firstcommand.com/home/fcmd_magazine/02w_firststory.html

Cruz was returning to a world without magazines or television or gardening or afternoon walks. His eyes had suffered some of the worst burns that his doctor had ever treated.
"He could not distinguish whether it was myself or my daughter in the room," said Veronica Cruz, his wife.
The hardest part, his wife said, was the uncertainty. "You didn't know where this would lead you," she said. "There were so many unknowns these past two years."
No one could say how well Cruz, now 53, would heal. At first his days consisted of eating and sleeping and showers and medication and bandage changes -- and very little else.
Slowly, after 17 months, the haze started lifting. Last February, Cruz, once an Army sergeant 1st class who started his days with 50 pushups, was able to manage short walks on a treadmill.
In ways he had only hoped for, his vision began to reemerge.
His improved sight is not nearly perfect -- and a corneal transplant is still possible -- but with his glasses and just the right light, he can read: a large-print Reader's Digest, enlarged words on a computer screen, even a newspaper. "It's a huge improvement," he said. "I always had faith that I would be able to see again, but it's been stressful."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57708-2003Sep10.html

[Bolo Boffin]

20. You've recognized a vital key in understanding Dulce's article collages...

...consult your fears.

:toast:

[DulceDecorum]

26. Don't be afraid

of REALITY.

Why are you so upset that civilians routinely lose hair when serverely burned and the Penta-heroes didn't?
This merely proves the superiority of of the military.
It's not like I said they were extra-terrestrial lizards wearing human suits and I am absolutely certain that there is a simple logical and rational explanation for this fact.

What explanation do you have?
How come they went through a fire of that alleged magnitude and still had hair?
(And I know for a FACT that those Black women put some highly flamable petroleum based product in their hair before they went off to work at the Pentagon.)

[LARED]

27. DD should look at his own images more closely

Looks to me like there is a good chance this poor soul had some hair burned off, Or she is going bald



There is also no question she lost a lot of hair on the front of here head


You would think if DD is trying to create some point/myth/bad joke/ whatever about the lack of burned hair exposing a gigantic conspiracy he/she would at least post images that help


BTW , I like your blog

[DulceDecorum]

29. You do not know anything

about black women do you?

First of all, black people, like white people, have scalps.
The skin on the scalp
(of a black person, as well as a white one)
is usually MUCH lighter than the rest of the skin.
This is because it does not see daylight since the scalp
(of black people as well as white ones)
is covered with HAIR.

Now look at the laughing hyena.
The front of her scalp is BLACK.
It is MUCH darker than the rest of her face.
And she still has HAIR on the rest of her scalp.
If her hair had truly burned, there would be
NO CLEAR LINE OF DEMARCATION.
Plus she would NOT be laughing.
Her scalp would be swollen out to there.
This is a woman who puts petroleum products in her hair and any hairdresser here can confirm that just by glancing at her.

That is a clear plastic film holding the HAIR she still has underneath.
Since acerbic was so kind as to refer us to a page of burn victim images created by the film industry, here, take a look at they kind of work they do to simulate burns.
http://www.gregmcdougallfx.com/index.html
Click on the GORE section.
Remember that no Penta-heroes were harmed in the creation of these images.

Now lets take a look at the first lady - the one with a double ration of teddy bears.
There is hardly any hair missing from the front of her head.
And if there is ANY hair missing, then it is probably due to the way she treats her hair.
Chances are that this woman uses lye products to straighten her hair.



http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2002/n09092002_200209093.html


THAT is the reason why it appears to be so long in the hospital picture.
Take another look at that hairline.



One of the things that happens to black women who keep their hair straight with lye, is that the tiny hairs along the front begin to fade away. It also happens if they braid their hair too tight.
So then they cease and desist with the hairdo and let the hair go back to what it does naturally. If it is permed, and Sheila Moody's hair is either hot-combed (and therefore HIGHLY FLAMABLE) in the first pic or else it has been cut down to her natural curl in the second picture.
The upshot of this is that

Sheila Moody did NOT lose any hair
due any fire that occured at the Pentagon on September 11,2001.

“A BURST OF HOT AIR HIT MY FACE,” Moody said. “It was so powerful that I shut my eyes. When I opened them, A BALL OF FIRE PASSED RIGHT NEXT TO ME. It was so close, I could have stuck my arm out and touched the flames.”
Still, Moody remained seated at her desk. After the explosion, there was only quiet and the stink of jet fuel, she said. Burning office fixtures created a trap — there was no obvious way out for the two women in an office where THE FIRE'S TEMERATURE 1,600 DEGREES.
She heard another co-worker say, “my skin is on fire.”
http://www.uticaod.com/news/specialreports/911anniversary/sept11/moody.htm



And these photographs PROVE it.

[acerbic]

32. "laughing hyena"?

Now look at the laughing hyena.
The front of her scalp is BLACK.

What the hell is actually wrong with you?

[LARED]

33. Good question

I can only assume DD thinks she's a BFEE prop, not really a victim.

This is turning into the most morbid display I've ever seen on a BB.

[DulceDecorum]

35. Hahahahahaha

Look at that forehead.



Isn't it wonderful that she does not have a scar.
Why it looks like NOTHING EVER HAPPENED TO IT.

And she can type.
And she can answer the phone.
Her fingers have FULLY RECOVERED.

And now another look at REALITY.




This guy suffered the same type of burns in the same year.
He had a SIX month head start.
In the PR world of you-know-who Jason Schechterle would be strutting around the Mr. Universe stage by now.
But REALITY doesn't work that way.
It is VERY difficult to look at that face every morning.
More so when it is your own.

Look at his hand.
Wonder when he is going to go back to typing and answering the phone and having manicures and wearing rings.
Wonder when his smile is going to get back to what it was before.
Wonder when he is going to get a medal for losing some HAIR.
This guy was in a car that was made by the same folks who gave us the Pinto and the Rollover SUV. As far as I can tell, he has not been awarded any civilian medals for bravery - and hair loss.




Schechterle had been buckled into his patrol car, responding to a call of unknown trouble the night of March 26, 2001, when his cruiser was slammed from behind by a speeding taxicab. The patrol car exploded into a ball of fire.
Providentially, a fire truck was at the same intersection, en route to the same call. But in the minutes it took firefighters and police officers to cut Schechterle from behind the wheel of his cruiser and pull him through the window, he had suffered fourth-degree burns to his neck, head and hands. His torso, arms and legs were seared, too.
Surgeons, who by published accounts DOUBTED THE WISDOM OF WHAT THEY WERE DOING, spent hours removing Schechterle's charred, dead skin. Layer by layer in the initial surgeries, they cut away his face in search of living tissue. No more eyelids, no cheeks, no nose, only a rough semblance of ears. In operation after operation, their scalpels and skin-grafting skills addressed burns over 40 percent of Schechterle's body. He ultimately would lose several fingers to the burns.
Schechterle has no memory of what happened, the crash or the fire, which he said is a good thing.
http://www.nursinghandsstore.com/news/features/03-08/officerjason.asp





HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
HAHAHHHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
This is SO funny.
I just can't keep my face straight.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[acerbic]

37. Offensive, obsessed, sick... n/t

.

[DulceDecorum]

40. Offensive, obsessed, sick and hirsute.

Why waste your time insulting me?

All I want to know is how come they still have hair?
How did the hair survive that heat?
They say they had second and third degree burns.

Check this out.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/imagepages/1078.htm

How did their hair come back so soon and grow so fast?
Cy Sprauling wants to know.

[DulceDecorum]

43. Hey, acerbic, put your money where your mouth is.

Mrs. Birdwell: Second Corinthians talks about the God of all comfort and that we should comfort one another. That's one of the things we're trying to do through the ministry we started called "Face The Fire." We want to help other burn survivors and their families understand that the road that lies ahead of them is neither pretty nor easy, but we need to strive to help one another along. That's really what it's all about – just loving one another, the way Christ commanded us to do.
Lt. Col. Birdwell: Pastor Elwood, one of our pastors, once said to me, "Brian, God doesn't waste our pain." And what we've been through is a great family story, a great soldier's story, but most importantly, it's a great faith story. And that's why we share it.

The Birdwells are sharing that story around the country and can be contacted via their website, www.facethefire.org/
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34531


Dallas/Fort Worth, TX—Lt. Col. Brian Birdwell, a survivor and burn victim from the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the Pentagon, along with his wife, Mel, have recently signed with Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. They will publish a book that not only chronicles the events of that day but also shows God’s sovereignty in all of life. The agreement was made in conjunction with the Birdwells’ public relations agent, Tina Jacobson, president of The Barnabas Agency, a new division of The B&B Media Group.
http://www.tbbmedia.com/press_release.asp?sID=53


Brian and his wife, Mel, communicate a compelling message of enduring hope, unwavering faith, undying patriotism and unconditional love. They welcome the opportunity to address you and your group and are willing to tailor their message for your specific needs. With honesty and insight, the Birdwells will encourage, inspire and motivate change in the hearts of those you desire to reach.
Please send Check or Money Order to:
Face The Fire Ministries
P.O. Box 2798
Woodbridge, VA 22195-2798
http://www.facethefire.org/

[acerbic]

44. You're just a morbidly obtuse weirdo.

There. Your baiting was succesful. Now run to whine to the moderators: I have so many strikes saying something straight about aggravating irrational babblers like you that you might well get me banned.

[DulceDecorum]

46. I was only trying to be helpful

but now you've gone and hurt my feelings.
Again.

;(

Waa.

[acerbic]

47. Now that's real sarcasm. Congratulations!

but now you've gone and hurt my feelings.

You have demonstrated the degree of your emotional development quite adequately in this thread, so anyone can actually recognize that as a joke.

I consider myself quite a cynical SOB and I can joke about things most people couldn't, but stubborn yapping about how severely burned and suffering people are "Penta-heroes just using special effects and make-up" based only on the usual contrived obtuseness turns even my stomach. :puke:

[DulceDecorum]

48. I am wounded to the quick

at the thought that anyone would even think that I would make fun of someone who had been severely burned.

Did you see me laughing on or shortly after Jan. 27, 1984, when Michael Jackson's hair caught fire during the sixth take of a Pepsi commercial?

On edit:
Besides which the people at the Pentagon did NOT suffer that fate. They still have their hair.

How dare you insinuate that I find the predicament of Mr. Alexander and Mr. Schechterle and Ms. Carson amusing?
God Almightly, have these people not endured enough?
What kind of person would even suggest that their having lost their hair due to fire was in any way funny?
Certainly not me.
:mad:

[FDR2004]

38. yesterday on the discovery channel

there was a programme on the Pentagon and they interviewed a man who was severely burned in the Pentagon fire....it was obvious he had burn scars over his face, he lost his eyelids, and his hand had only three fingers. I saw a good closeup of his horribly damaged hand. But because he still has a mustache, does that mean he's a fake and never suffered those burns??? He looked hispanic and i think he had a hispanic name, if that helps.

FDR2004

[DulceDecorum]

39. Juan Cruz-Santiago

Kurtz and Cruz suffered third degree burns over 80 percent of their bodies. Kurtz lost all of her fingers, her ears, and has had dozens of surgeries. And will have dozens more.
CRUZ'S CONTACT LENSES MELTED ONTO HIS EYES. Beyond his burns, he’s had to cope with impaired vision.
http://www.uticaod.com/news/specialreports/911anniversary/sept11/moody.htm

Contact lenses are thin, curved plastic disks designed to cover the cornea, the clear front covering of the eye.
http://www.kellogg.umich.edu/conditions/eyecare/contact.lens.html




The darkness went on a grimly long time, and Juan Cruz-Santiago was not sure it would ever lift. It outlasted the early days, when doctors sewed his eyelids shut to protect what was left of his sight. It obscured his sense of the surrounding world through 40 surgeries and 87 days in a hospital bed, through his homecoming and his whispered prayers and month after month of slow healing.
Then, unexpectedly, he began to detect outlines and shapes. He saw his way through his hallway and living room. He took in his wife's dark eyes, his daughter's smile, the pink roses he had planted years before outside his kitchen window. "This we thought would never happen," said his wife, Veronica.
<snip>
Cruz was returning to a world without magazines or television or gardening or afternoon walks. HIS EYES HAD SUFFERED SOME OF THE WORST BURNS THAT HIS DOCTOR HAD EVER TREATED.
<snip>
His improved sight is not nearly perfect -- and a corneal transplant is still possible -- but with his glasses and just the right light, he can read: a large-print Reader's Digest, enlarged words on a computer screen, even a newspaper. "It's a huge improvement," he said. "I always had faith that I would be able to see again, but it's been stressful."
http://www.msnbc.com/news/964915.asp?0cl=cR&cp1=1

READ, JUAN READ.



Juan Cruz Santiago, left, a victim of the attack on the Pentagon, studies a claim form with his wife at a Jan. 15 meeting led by Kenneth Feinberg in Arlington, Va.
http://www.dodgeglobe.com/stories/031302/nat_terrorfund.shtml

Juan Cruz-Santiago, 52, an accountant at the Pentagon, is an exception. He suffered severe burns over 70% of his body, requires years of continuing surgery and will never work again.
Married with ONE CHILD, Cruz-Santiago recently received a $6.8 million award.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/84499p-77258c.html
In the last six months, he has struggled toward more normalcy with the help of Veronica and his daughters, Melissa, 25, and Marissa, 16.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/964915.asp?0cl=cR

In Washington, we stood no more than 50 yards from the impact site at the Pentagon. As an Army officer briefed us on the details of the attack, I could not take my eyes off the building. Pictures still hung on walls in what used to be offices. WINDOWS SAGGED AND BULGED, THE GLASS MELTED AND RESHAPED BY THE INTENSE HEAT. The concrete walls were black with soot and ash. It was an ugly and sobering sight.
http://www.governor.state.ms.us/news&information/2001column/100701americasbest.htm

Glass can only be molded at very high temperatures. It completely melts/liquifies at approximately 1400 °C to 1600 °C depending on the composition of glass.
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/SaiLee.shtml

Cruz estimates he has had 25-30 surgeries, including skin grafts. He still faces a cornea transplant, more reconstruction on his eyelids and face and prosthetic ears. Although he lost his eyebrows, he grins with satisfaction at the fact that his mustache survived.
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/special_packages/attack_on_america/stories/4002269.htm

http://www.msnbc.com/news/964915.asp?0cl=cR&cp1=1

Álvarez said she and her fellow workers sorted through debris from collapsed Pentagon walls and pieces of the hijacked airplane. THEY FOUND THE BOXCUTTERS USED BY THE HIJACKERS TO COMANDEER THE PLANE, IDENTIFICATION PAPERS, MONEY, JEWELRY, AND BODY PARTS.
http://www.cathstan.org/news/09-05-02/3.shtml

Gee whiz.
I guess that thar fire could burn paper identification or money either.
Nor apparently, was that blaze able to melt the boxcutters used by the hijackers. Maybe they can even get the fingerprints and DNA off the handles.....
Oh well, at least our Penta-heroes all grew their hair back and are still a good looking bunch.

Anybody here know anything about the disintegration of proteins under high heat?

[LARED]

41. DD

Anybody here know anything about the coalgulation of proteins under high heat?

Eggs? I like them sunny side up, tons of bacon on the side with a nice cup of coffee.

DD, you need to get a grip. How badly a person is burned depends on a lot of different things. The temperature, the time tissue is exposed, and what the tissue is covered with just to name a few.

Are you aware that tissue will start to be damaged somewhere around 200 deg F? You cannot even hold your hand for long on something about 125 deg F. At 350 deg F tissue will be severely burned depending on the time of exposure. I know, I have been burned by a steam pipe operating at that temperature. At that temp hair does NOT burn.

If a person is wearing cotton they are afforded quite a bit of protection as cotton has a pretty high ignition temp and will protect the skin of a short while. Of course if you're wearing polyester it could be ugly.

Ever broiled a steak. There is definitely a difference in the condition of the meat if you cook it for 30 seconds. I would call it raw. It if cook it for 45 minutes its call leather. This same principle applies to a person exposed to a high temp.

Really DD, you have completely embarrassed yourself on this one.

Also just because a fire is 1600 deg F does not mean you are exposed to a 1600 deg f (unless you happen to be in the fire) Have you ever cooked on a gas grill? This concept ain't hard.


Also, I will not respond to any more weird posts about burn victims. These people should be respected. They are victims, they are not props to created to fulfill some alternate reality you indulge in

[DulceDecorum]

42. Hair does NOT burn at 350 degrees F????

And cotton has a pretty high ignition temp.?
Well I don't know where you are located, but on planet Earth, that is NOT the case.

If the steam pipe burned the palm of your hand, then it most certainly did NOT burn any hair.
Unless you have habits we would rather not discuss.....

There is a difference between a scald and a burn from dry heat.
Dry heat burns the hair, which then gives off its characteristic odor.
Wet heat - steam - just gets down to business.
Either way, the surface of the skin is damaged together with the HAIR FOLLICLES.

After testing the condition of the building's concrete, construction engineers determined they would have to take down more of the building than they'd originally thought. Evey said normal concrete is brown or gray, but inspected parts had turned red, indicating extensive damage.
"Most of that damage," he said, "was caused by the intense heat to which it was exposed -- heat intense enough in some areas to melt the window glass, which ran down the walls and puddled on the floor."
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2002/n03112002_200203115.html

For example, some samples had a reddish hue or tints of bright orange. These samples came from columns near the crash site. The red and orange colors come from tiny amounts of iron in the rock that were oxidized in extreme heat. When the airplane slammed into the Pentagon, the plane's jet fuel exploded and the resulting fire cracked the rock in the concrete mix.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/07/0709_020708_TVpentagon.html

Hot enough to melt the glass.
Hot enough to oxidize the tiny amounts of iron in the rock.
Hot enough to crack the rock in the concrete mix.
But NOT hot enough to BURN HAIR.

Time = half an hour
Temperature > 1,000 degrees
They claim to have been INSIDE the fire.
In New York people JUMPED out of the burning WTC minutes after it caught fire.

Listen Lared, I am actually quite glad that those people survived the fire in the Pentagon.
All I want is for them to tell us HOW.
Then we can use the same techniques to help the kids who were inside the Station in Rhode Island when it caught fire. And the hundreds of people in burns wards across the nation. These people would LOVE to come out of their ordeal looking as good as our Penta-heroes.

I am sure that Mr. Alexander would like his face back and that Mr. Schechterle would LOVE to grow some hair. they have waited a LONG time. And they have spent MUCH MORE time in and out of hospitals than have our incredible Penta-heroes.
Give them a break.

Tell us how the Penta-heores managed to come out of that blaze looking like nothing whatsoever happened to them.
Have you no humanity?
Do you not care for your fellow American?
Then share the info.
To do otherwise is unpatriotic.

See, I am going to be nice and share something with you.
They did not even have to replace the floor in the Wedge that was hit.

Initially, the concrete portion of the project was to be more time consuming. The heat from the airplane severely burned and dented much of the concrete, and the original plans were to tear up the entire floor and start over. When Paul Scheidmantel, Ardex Sales Representative, saw the site, he made the recommendation that contractors use K-15 instead, saving the Pentagon both time and money. ARDEX K-15 technology fills in all of the gouges and cracks and uneven surfaces to produce an even, level floor that is ready just hours after installation.
http://www.ardex.com/main-news-020718.htm

Now I didn't share that so that you can turn around and accuse me of trying to prove that there was nothing wrong with that floor in the first place.
No.
I am trying to show you how to help the people next to you.
Real people with real burns and real pain.
It is not something to laugh at, it is not some big huge wildly funny joke to be shared with the bosses's wife.

REAL Burn survivors should be respected. They are victims, they are not props who have been created to fulfill some alternate reality for someone to indulge in.

Now, how about telling us how to help them regenerate smooth normal-looking skin complete with hair follicles.
Come on Lared, be nice for once.

[DulceDecorum]

45. Lared, have you ever used an iron?

Because irons can do and will burn cotton fabric and have even been known to to cause entire houses to burn down.

And then there are these things called curling irons which ladies use to fix their hair. They work on the same principle as the flat iron.
In fact, some women assure me that they straighten their -long- hair by placing it on the ironing board and using the silk heat-setting on the flat iron.

Me, I don't pretend to understand that kind of thing.
But I know for a fact that good paper is made out of cotton rag and that cellulose burns very easily.
Just like HAIR.

[DulceDecorum]

82. The Three Stooges

NORFOLK, Va. (NNS) -— First came the crash — sounds of intense metal grinding, cinder block crunching. It was a horrific noise like the young man had never heard before. An inconceivable sudden thunderclap that signaled a violent storm wrought with distructive power.
Then, the explosion came, sending a ripple through the massive building. Pictures on the wall shifted upward, then down like a wave that surged through the building as if it were a body of water. Then the wave broke, unleashing its devastating force.
The putrid odor of melting plastic, jet fuel and BURNING HAIR and rubber engulfed the room. Ceiling tiles dropped from above, and insulation followed. The lights suddenly glowed intensely, then just as quickly cut to darkness.
http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=3503

Rose ran on adrenaline Sept. 11. It wasn't until late that night, when he took a shower, that he realized the extent of his injuries.
HAIR ON HIS ARMS HAD BEEN BURNED AWAY and his skin singed by molten plastic that dripped from the Pentagon hallways. He had shards of glass embedded in his chest and stomach, which he used tweezers to pull out.
He had numerous cuts and bruises. He also suffered smoke inhalation.
<snip>
Combing through the debris, workers found a wooden image of Uncle Sam. Rose's mother had made it for him with her own hands years ago. Other than a few chips and the stained scent of smoke, the piece was unharmed.
Combing through the debris, workers found a wooden image of Uncle Sam. Rose's mother had made it for him with her own hands years ago. Other than a few chips and the stained scent of smoke, the piece was unharmed.
A locker Rose maintained held several dress uniforms he kept at the office. When it was opened, the only thing inside, besides the ashes, was the front of a shirt laying at the bottom still holding Rose's medals, ribbons and other designations. He eventually pulled them off and placed them in a glass case, the back of which contains a photo of the Pentagon.
It hangs on a wall in his office at home.
The only other salvageable item Rose has was his cherished Three Stooges coffee mug. It was found sitting atop the locker, right where he had put it.
That mug held gallons of coffee over the years. Rose sipped from it every morning.
The cup appeared the way he last saw it. A faint coffee stain lined the inside. The image of the stooges was vibrant. The white ceramic wasn't even singed.
http://www.goodnewsblog.com/116-Man_who_saved_9_in_Pentagon_now_calls_E_town_home.html

Because the Pentagon is in Arlington, Chief Plaugher was in charge of the EMS and fire suppression operation at the scene. The Pentagon property stretches across 583 acres and encompasses 6.6 million square feet of space. To further complicate matters, Chief Plaugher found himself directing operations for three tragedies at once: a building fire, a building collapse, and a plane crash.
One of the major issues for response personnel at the Pentagon was that fire had spread into the roof of the structure. "The inner and outer rings of the building have gabled, slate roofs supported by timbers" said Chief Plaugher. "THE WOOD TIMBERS HAVE BEEN THERE FOR AT LEAST 60 YEARS AND WERE INSULATED WITH HORSE HAIR. WE SIMPLY COULD NOT PUT THE FIRE OUT."
http://www.nfpa.org/ProfessionalDev/EventsCalendar/FallEducationConference/Registration/MondayReport/MondayReport.asp

See Lared, it WAS hot enough to burn hair.
So why do ALL the photos of
EVERYONE at the Pentagon on September 11, 2001
ALL have hair?

[LARED]

84. DD

Get professional help.

[DulceDecorum]

85. From the same place you got your engineering degree?

I think not.
And Lared,
they STILL ALL HAVE HAIR.

Can't explain it away,
so you attempt to slay the truth with a false label.
Now you put in practice, an old familiar tactic
once used by the fox in that old familiar fable.




http://www.sallyminker.com/art/2-d/grapes.html

[LARED]

86. Slaying the truth?

DD, there is nothing to explain away. People get burned on a regular basis and do not get their hair on their head burned off. Just because someone gets burns on their body that severely damages one part, it does not mean that the hair on their head MUST be burned.

One does not need an engineering degree to figure that out. I believe most 10 year olds have an inherent understanding that just because your arms or chest of even your face gets burns, there is no requirement that the hair on your hair gets burned. Unless you live in a cave isolated from the world (or reality), life experiences teach you that.

Here's a thought for you. Ever cook a turkey? The oven is what, 375 to 425 deg f. Clearly hot enough to burn you if you were in the pan. Yet you can open the door and be very close to the heat and live.

Or how about that electric heater you use on the cold winter nights. Air blown over electric coils that are red hot to heat the air. Yet somehow though the mysteries of science you don't become a flaming torch even though you are quite close to the intense heat.

These same principles were at work in the Pentagon. Just because there were areas that were blazing hot (the same areas that killed many people) some people were luckily not real close to the fires or were very briefly exposed to the heat and suffered varying levels of burns.

Come on DD put that thinking cap on (after you unscrew the tin foil one) squeeze your eyelids real tight and think it though. YOu'll get it. I have confidence in you.

[DulceDecorum]

89. What are you NOT inhaling?

The Penta-heroes claim to have actually been in the pan.
Shaeffer says that his head and face were on fire and YET he has all his hair.
ALL the Penta-heroes have hair.
Heck even the landscaping kept it's grass nice and green.
And you know how much fuss people are making about that.

http://www.news.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=120

Someone is lying and it ain't me.

And if it ain't you Lared,
then tell us how Shaeffer, for example, burned his hair,
burned his skin,
burned his muscle
and yet KEPT HIS HAIR -- the same hair that was burnt
BEFORE the skin and the muscle?

EXPLAIN HOW THEY HAVE HAIR.
Or admit that you have absolutely NO IDEA what it means to have a second or third degree burn.

How would a turkey KEEP it's feathers, once you put it in the oven and exposed it to such heat?

Across town at Walter Reed, Navy Lt. Kevin Shaeffer suffered with third-degree burns on his hands and arms, and SECOND AND THIRD DEGREE BURNS ON HIS FACE AND HEAD AND BACK. His injuries covered 42 percent of his body. His hair was burned off. His lungs had been seared by atomized jet fuel. That night, doctors sliced the scarred, inelastic skin of his arms, lest they rip open as he swelled.
http://www.hamptonroads.com/pilotonline/special/911/pentagon4.html

Workman commandeered a flatbed golf cart, lay Shaeffer on the back, and ordered the driver to take them to a clinic on the Pentagon's east side. Shaeffer could feel his adrenaline ebbing, and rising in its place came a pain so fierce his breath caught. HE WAS HURT BAD, he thought, REALLY BAD. MAYBE DISFIGURED. ``HOW'S MY FACE?'' he asked Workman. ``WHAT'S MY FACE LOOK LIKE?''
http://www.hamptonroads.com/pilotonline/special/911/pentagon3b.html





http://www.news.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=1408

Nice face.
Nice HAIR.
Kevin Shaeffer says he got his burns from the jet that entered the Pentagon.
According to his testimony, the jet was every bit as present as his burns.
And on that point, I totally agree with him.

[RH]

100. Someone is lying and ....

so they are.

Especially citing Lt. Kevin Shaeffer you said, unambiguously, "they ALL STILL had hair that same day."

You were therefore invited to prove that he had no hair "on that same day".

You then proceeded to duck and dive, with all sorts of dissemblance on offer but still no proof. Obviously enough the photos you reproduce were not taken "on that same day". Hair grows.

You're fooling nobody but (possibly) yourself.

[DulceDecorum]

104. You have NEVER PROVED anything here

and you can't prove it today.
And you can't explain why the others have hair.

AFTER you properly explain WHY THEY HAVE HAIR
And you come up with ONE SINGLE PICTURE OF BURNED HAIR,
then and only then, will I play my ace.

You say that "hair grows."
God, you are so in line for a personal attack concerning intelligence, or rather the lack therof,
and I am sorely tempted to deliver one.
But I shall not.
I will not say one single thing about your ability to read or process formation.

A second degree burn DESTROYS hair follicles.
A third degree burn DESTROYS hair follicles.
Therefore, if Kevin Shaeffer had indeed suffered second and third degree burns,
as HE HIMSELF claims,
then Kevin Shaeffer's hair follicles would have been DESTROYED.

As you can see, they are in fine working order.
Therefore, by your own admission RH,
Kevin Shaeffer's hair follicles were NOT destroyed.

This means that he CANNOT have suffered second or third degree burns.
Which is why he had hair that day and the next and the next and the next and so forth up till today.
And if you insist that there is ONE SINGLE DAY upon which Kevin Shaeffer did NOT have hair, then YOU prove it.
Produce ONE photograph, taken at ANY time between September 11, 2001 and April 26, 2002 where Kevin Shaeffer has NO HAIR.
You simply cannot do this.
That is why you resort to that:
:puke:

Furthermore,
your line of reasoning does Mr. Sheaffer a great disservice.

You do know that hair is found in other places besides the scalp?
If I state, here and now, that Mr. Kevin Shaeffer's manhood was unaffected by the burning sensations he allegedly experienced for eight or so months,
will you demand that I produce photographic evidence to the contrary?
Or will you accept a photo of baby Sophia Bella as sufficient circumstancial evidence?

Please speak up,
Mrs. Blanca Shaeffer is willing to demonstrate her kick-boxing skills and I have half a mind to let her.

That man has hair in all the proper places and THAT is THAT.

[acerbic]

105. Why even bother...

A second degree burn DESTROYS hair follicles.

...but no, it doesn't, necessarily. It can damage them and destroy them if the burn is not treated. A few sources:

"Second Degree Burns
Second-degree burns affect both the outer-layer (epidermis) and the under lying layer of skin (dermis) causing redness, pain, swelling and blisters. These burns often affect sweat glands, and hair follicles."
http://www.burnsurvivor.com/burn_types_second.html

"Second Degree
Sometimes referred to as partial thickness burns, second degree burns are characterized as either "superficial" or "deep." Both types penetrate deeper than a first degree burn and destroy the epidermal layers, extending into the dermis layer. They can cause damage to sweat glands and hair follicles..."
http://www.skinhealing.com/2_2_skinburnsscars.shtml

Therefore, if Kevin Shaeffer had indeed suffered second and third degree burns, as HE HIMSELF claims, then Kevin Shaeffer's hair follicles would have been DESTROYED.

Where does HE HIMSELF claim that he suffered those burns to his scalp? Just a little quote and link saying just that, not two pages of rambling this and that, ok? No...? Wheredygo? Wheredygo? Wheredygo? Wheredygo? Wheredygo? :crazy:

[DulceDecorum]

110. Follicles are INTACT and growing hair

We know for a fact that
the hair follicles of Kevin Shaeffer were NOT damaged
DESPITE ALL claims to have suffered second and THIRD-DEGREE BURNS.

Ooooh, I am SO SORRY acerbic.
I can't find a clip that specifically mentions "SCALP."
So I guess you think that means that you are off the hook........


"Remember the orange fireball?" asked Shaeffer. "That is essentially what happened inside the Navy Command Center. I remember everything just exploding toward me. I COULD FEEL MY HAIR AND HEAD ON FIRE. I ran my fingers through my hair, rolled on the floor to put myself out. When I stood, the space was dark, black. There was smoke and rubble."
http://www.militarycity.com/sept11/shaeffer.html

In addition to second- and THIRD-DEGREE BURNS on his hands, arms, HEAD and back, Shaeffer also suffered lung damage from smoke and jet fuel inhalation.
http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=1438

Across town at Walter Reed, Navy Lt. Kevin Shaeffer suffered with third-degree burns on his hands and arms, and second- and THIRD-DEGREE BURNS ON HIS FACE, HEAD AND BACK. His injuries covered 42 percent of his body. HIS HAIR WAS BURNED OFF. His lungs had been seared by atomized jet fuel. That night, doctors sliced the scarred, inelastic skin of his arms, lest they rip open as he swelled.
http://www.hamptonroads.com/pilotonline/special/911/pentagon4.html

The former naval strategist emerged with lung damage from inhaling jet fuel and with second- and THIRD-DEGREE BURNS over half of his body. He has had at least 13 surgeries, including numerous ski
http://www.post-gazette.com/neigh_south/20030611s19kevin0611p6.asp

SUSAN DENTZER: It's clear that the first thing a burn does is damage the skin. In what's called a first-degree burn, for example, a sunburn, only the outermost layer, the epidermis, is harmed. That type of burn usually heals itself without incident. By contrast, a second-degree burn, such as the kind that may take place in a kitchen accident, destroys the epidermis and exposes the second layer of skin, the dermis. THEN THERE ARE THIRD-DEGREE BURNS LIKE THOSE SUFFERED BY MOST OF THE PENTAGON VICTIMS.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-june02/burns_1-29.html

ALL other Penta-people have hair as well,
DESPITE ALL claims
to have also experienced THIRD-DEGREE BURNS.

It is a miracle!
God must have tried to personally intervene,
just like He did with
Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego
who did not even smell of smoke when they emerged from the firey furnace.

[RH]

106. Who ever said

that Shaeffer suffered second or third degree burns to his scalp?

It is no great surprise to me if somebody without hair did not especially wish to be photographed as such.

From whence arises this morbid expectation to see photos of every last detail of everything that happens?

I recommend to take a break from the PC screen; get back to the 3D reality of the full five senses. There's a lot more to be got out of life elsewhere.

[DulceDecorum]

112. RH, You have TOTALLY lost it.

Now you are explaining why there might NOT be photos of Kevin Shaeffer without hair.
Which means that you agree that
EVERY photo of him shows him with a full head of hair,
which indicates that he did NOT sustain second-degree and
most certainly did NOT EVER have third-degree burns on his head and face.

Boy,
when I convince them,
I REALLY convince them.

RH now agrees that a full head of hair = no burn.

(I also suspect that he might be more than a little apprehensive about a certain upcoming kick-boxing tournament.)

I think we should now start a new thread and talk about the state of the Pentagon floor.

[RH]

118. On the contrary

I am fully convinced that you do not have a photo of Shaeffer at the time in question.

You have therfore lost the argument.

As usual you therfore deliberately misrepresent my opinion as well as the case.

Are you not aware of that? Is your nonsense sincerely intended or do you derive some sort of sadistic pleasure from this continual irration?

I cannot and do not possibly pretend to seen have EVERY photo of Sheffer with or without a full head of hair. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

As usual you argue only against your own mistakes.

What a complete waste of time!

[DulceDecorum]

124. Flipping and flopping like a fish

out of water.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

I rest my case.
Ya got squat.

[RH]

137. Got squat.

Exactly.

I asked for your proof.

You gave me squat.

[LARED]

121. Inhale this

ALL the Penta-heroes have hair.

Not all


Pentagon Burn Victims Recover
Mike Kurtz kisses his wife of over 30 years, with whom he spends 12 hours each day. He is buying special doorknobs that Louise can use even though she has no fingers. Her doctors say there is a very good possibility that she will one day be able to care for herself again.

DD, your game is up.

[DulceDecorum]

126. I see hairy people

What is that brown stuff growing on the top of her head?

Instead, Kurtz concentrates on the progress she has made since returning home. The bandages that for months covered her entire face are gone. HER HAIR HAS GROWN AND NOW TICKELES HER NECK. It masks the fact that she no longer has ears. The surgery in August will help restore the shape of her lips.
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/news/special_packages/attack_on_america/stories/4018406.htm

[DulceDecorum]

34. FLUKE

WHY DOES SHE HAVE HAIR?
Tell me now.
Why does she have hair?

The crash caused the second floor to collapse on them and they were immediately surrounded by fire. Jackson recalled, “The only thing we could see was a great fireball.” Fluke, Jackson, and a third coworker, Raquel Kelly, crawled over piles of debris toward a hole that the explosion created in the outer wall. In their rush to escape they didn’t notice that Jackson’s hair was on fire. Fluke saw her burning hair, quickly tore off his shirt and smothered the flames. The three continued to edge their way closer to the hole and climbed outside to safety.
Jackson was hospitalized in the intensive care unit for several days with second- and third-degree burns and smoke inhalation. Fluke was treated for second-degree burns on his left hand and multiple abrasions.
For his bravery during this tragedy, Fluke was honored during a special ceremony hosted by the Secretary of the Army, the Honorable Thomas E. White; the Chief of Staff of the Army, Gen. Eric K. Shinseki; and the Department of the Army. He was presented with the Decoration for Distinguished Civilian Service for Bravery, awarded to those “who have exhibited great courage and voluntary risk of life in performing an act resulting in direct benefit to the Government or its personnel.” This is the highest award a U.S. citizen can receive.
http://www.first-ag.org/articles_interest/September11/Bravery.htm

Sheesh.
It's not like he saved her life or anything.
She was back at work by September 28, 2001 with her
eyelashes, eyebrow, moustache and all the rest of her
HAIR.

[DulceDecorum]

36. Jet fuel & oxygen & 1,000 degree heat

Still, Moody remained seated at her desk. After the explosion, there was only quiet and the stink of jet fuel, she said. Burning office fixtures created a trap — there was no obvious way out for the two women in an office where THE FIRE'S TEMPERATURE REACHED 1,600 DEGREES.
http://www.uticaod.com/news/specialreports/911anniversary/sept11/moody.htm

Why no flashover?
If she could smell UNBURNED jet fuel (and MANY of the surviors claim the same thing) and she could STILL BREATHE (oxygen) then why did that 1,000 degrees NOT ignite the jet fuel vapour?
And her hair?

Lared,
since you have claimed to be an engineer,
tell us what a flash point temperature is.
And how Sheila Moody's hair survived 1,000 degrees.

An example of aluminium's refusal to burn is illustrated by the method used for melting aluminium for recycling, where baled scrap is fed into open furnaces with burners playing directly on the metal. Even the thinnest gauge materials will not burn, nor support combustion. In the home, ALUMINUM SAUCEPANS AND KETTLES can be used on the gas stove perfectly safely, and aluminium foil can be put on a barbecue without burning.
In fire tests on aluminium materials, when the temperature exceeds the melting point in the range 600-660°C, the aluminium surface exposed to the fire can be seen to melt, but it does not burn. At the end of the fire test the metal remains as a resolidified pool.
http://www.alfed.org.uk/fire.htm

"There was a memorial held on October 11 for the people who were killed," Bartram notes. "On October 12, we started taking the stone off the building. We took down approximately 2,400 pieces of stone, a lot of which had MELTED ALUMINUM FROM THE PLANE embedded in it. We took it all down in about 13 days.
http://www.masonrymagazine.com/8-02/rising.html

Hot enough to melt aluminum.
But NOT hot enough to burn HAIR.

The area of the Pentagon where the aircraft struck and burned sustained catastrophic damage. Anyone who might have survived the initial impact and collapse could not have survived the fire that followed, Pentagon officials said in a briefing Wednesday morning.
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0901/091201kp1.htm

[RH]

80. Why they have hair.

presumably for pretty much the same reason that glassblowers, welders or metal foundry workers retain their hair, even if they may happen to burn their fingers.



The melting point of glass is at least 1400 degrees centigrade.

Whether or not anything will burn depends upon the context.

Solid rocket fuel is made up principally of aluminum powder and ammonium perchlorate. When it burns, aluminum oxide and hydrogen chloride are emitted.
http://www.cpeo.org/lists/military/1994/msg00062.html

[DulceDecorum]

81. Go hold that hand INSIDE the glory hole

for TEN whole minutes and then come back and talk to me.

That is THE dumbest thing I have seen so far on this thread.
When they cook french fries - that would be FREEDOM FRIES to you, RH - the oil is EXTREMELY hot and yes the cook stands right next to it and pulls the basket in and out of the hot oil. And NO he does NOT get burned because his hand is NEVER in the oil.
But when our boy gets SPATTERED, well then, off he goes to the Emergency Room.

Sheesh.
How do you suppose a fireplace works?
Should the WHOLE HOUSE burn down because there is a fire in the living room hearth?

Furthermore, that photograph is misleading because the glass in question is NOT MOLTEN.
It is merely softened enough to to pull and the proof of that is that the person can STILL hold it.
THAT person is NOT burned NOR are they claiming to be burned.
This is no more amazing than grasping the handle of the frying-pan or the the lid of the pot - WITHOUT getting burned.

The Penta-heroes CLAIM TO HAVE BEEN BURNED.
They say that they have SECOND and THIRD DEGREE BURNS.
Yet they have HAIR.

A SECOND DEGREE burn goes past the hair and the epidermis, which is the top layer of skin.
A THIRD DEGREE burn goes down past the hair, and the epidemis into the muscle.
The muscle is burned. It is no more.
THAT is why it takes so long to heal.
In BOTH cases, the outer layer of skin, the epidermis, IS BURNED and usually FALLS RIGHT OFF.
And the hair is LONG GONE.
No hair.
Second degree burn = no hair.
Third degree burn = absolutely no hair.
No way.
No how.
Never.
NO HAIR.

WASHINGTON — Kevin Shaeffer remembers the moment on Sept. 11 WHEN HIS HEAD AND FACE WERE ON FIRE and 29 of his co-workers in the Pentagon's Navy Command Center were dead.
http://www.s-t.com/daily/09-02/09-07-02/a05wn031.htm

Shaeffer was in the Navy Command Center when Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. "I remember the force of it. I remember essentially being engulfed by a huge violent orange fireball. I remember wiping my hands over my head, and at the time, just MY HEAD AND HAIR WERE COMPLETELY ENGULFED BY FLAMES," he said.
http://www.wusatv9.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=22609

"Remember the orange fireball?" asked Shaeffer. "That is essentially what happened inside the Navy Command Center. I remember everything just exploding toward me. I COULD FEEL MY HAIR AND HEAD ON FIRE . I ran my fingers through my hair, rolled on the floor to put myself out. When I STOOD, the space was dark, black. There was smoke and rubble."
http://www.militarycity.com/sept11/shaeffer.html

Another floor down, in the Navy Command Center, Lt. Kevin Shaeffer was sprawled by the shock wave, then watched from the floor as a roiling, bright orange ball of fire shot toward him and everything -- cubicles, desks, ceiling tiles, the building's concrete support columns -- everything blew to pieces. Flames bathed his skin, his eyes, (AND EYELASHES) his lungs.
The room went dark. Shaeffer, dazed, prone on the carpet, REALIZED THAT HIS BACK AND HEAD WERE ON FIRE. He rolled to put himself out, then staggered to his feet. HE RAN A HAND THROUGH HIS HAIR. His scalp felt wet.
http://www.hamptonroads.com/pilotonline/special/911/pentagon2.html

RH look carefully at these two clips and tell me what this man claims to have happened to his HAIR.


Shaeffer stood on a service road that circled the Pentagon between the B and C rings. A chunk of the 757's nose cone and front landing gear lay on the pavement a few feet away, resting against the B Ring wall. For a second it seemed he had left his body and was watching the scene from above: He saw himself stagger from the smoke and over the broken rock piled outside the opening, arms outstretched, eyes shut and mouth agape in pain and shock and horror. Just like that little girl in Vietnam, after the napalm attack, he thought. I look just like her.
A pair of Navy men were the first to reach him. Yeoman Cean Whitmarsh was stunned that the lieutenant was still on his feet. HIS HAIR HAD BEEN BURNED OFF. His polyester khakis were melted onto his skin. HIS FLESH WAAS CHARRED BLACK AND BLEEDING AND MELTED. And he was on fire: FLAMES LICKED UP HIS LEFT SIDE.
http://www.hamptonroads.com/pilotonline/special/911/pentagon3.html

Across town at Walter Reed, Navy Lt. Kevin Shaeffer suffered with third-degree burns on his hands and arms, and SECOND AND THIRD-DEGREE BURNS ON HIS HACE, HEAD AND BACK. His injuries covered 42 percent of his body. HIS HAIR WAS BURNED OFF. His lungs had been seared by atomized jet fuel. That night, doctors sliced the scarred, inelastic skin of his arms, lest they rip open as he swelled.
http://www.hamptonroads.com/pilotonline/special/911/pentagon4.html

More than 30 surgeries later, Birdwell has regained some of his former appearance, including A FULL HEAD OF BROWN HAIR. Still, his wife, Mel, notices how people sometimes stare. His ears, about half their normal size, appear almost melted. HIS FACE AND NECK ARE RIDGED WITH SCAR TISSUE. His arms do not bend normally. Neither do his hands.
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/964915.asp?0sl=-42

THIS DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS YOU, RH.

Even these guys claim that they lost their hair due to the extreme heat.
Yet and still, the HAIR grew back miraculously in time for the camera crew to hit the IC unit the very next day.

What the heck,
they ALL STILL had hair that same day.
And it is NOT just the Penta-poster-children.
EVERYONE who was at the Pentagon on September 11, 2001 left without having a single strand burned.
See for yourself.
Who here has lost their hair?



http://www.gordon.army.mil/AC/fall01/heroes.htm
http://www.mdw.army.mil/news/news_photos/911/pages/rescue-team.html

Note: the fire is OUT at this point, so the person they are carrying has been in there all this time.
The guy below, Master Sgt. Noel Sepulveda, managed to pull people who were burned and bloodied out of the Pentagon and he still keep his shirt clean.
No wonder he got a medal.



http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0902/world2.html



Perhaps you are wondering why I snuck that one in about Brian Birdwell.
Well, that was because these PR flacks CANNOT keep their stories straight.........

Bush left for the tour of the burn unit at Washington Hospital Center, where a number of the victims from the Pentagon attack were being treated. It was his first face-to-face meeting with attack survivors, who were burned, bathed in oils and dressings and swathed in bandages, some almost unrecognizable.
Since airplanes weren't flying, about 70 square feet of human skin, kept on dry ice, had been sent by van from Texas to stabilize the wounds. Some of those who were burned over large percentages of their bodies talked about crawling through fire. IN ONE ROOM, BUSH ENCOUNTERED A YOUNG NAVY LIEUTENANT NAMED KEVIN SHAEFFER, WHO WAS IN BAD SHAPE.
"HE WANTS TO PLAY GOLF WITH YOU WHEN HE GETS OUT," said one of Shaeffer's friends.
"TELL HIM HE HAS A DATE," the president said.
http://www.wyvern.org/mirrors/washpost/Part_3-September_13th.html


Hey RH, since you posted that picture,
here are two, just for you.






Note the Christ-like symbolism.
This picture's jpg address includes the words TERROR PENTAGON VICTIM.
Observe the color of the man's head.
That is cyanosis.
It is NOT a good sign. That man is is is REALLY BAD SHAPE.
Better shart checking out the black clothes in your wardrobe.
Wanna know what happened to that poor dead-looking guy?
OK, here:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9805/30/terror.pentagon/

Wanna know more about the gas mask?
Sure:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9803/06/pentagon.anthrax/

Made you look, made you stare
But you can't account for Penta-hair.
http://www.mdw.army.mil/news/news_photos/911/pages/barbers.html

[RH]

83. they ALL STILL had hair that same day?

Yes, we see that Shaeffer's version is that his hair and hands were on fire.

What we do not see is any proof that Shaeffer had hair "that same day". What is the proof of that assertion supposed to consist of?

:shrug:

[DulceDecorum]

87. YOU try proving me wrong.

You simply can't.
And I have produced proof upon proof upon proof upon request.
Now it is YOUR TURN.
Show us ONE PHOTO where that man had NO hair.
JUST ONE.
ONE SINGLE PHOTO.
ONLY ONE.
ONE.

RH you have NEVER EVER EVER EVER actually proved anything.
How about DEMONSTRATING that you can ACTUALLY come up with HARD-CORE PROOF of SOMETHING?
A picture of Kevin Shaeffer WITHOUT hair would be a good place to start.

Watch people, he is going to whine and moan and groan.
But he will NOT come up with any proof.
RH just demands that others come up with the evidence
and then he routinely ignores said proof.

RH said earlier:
"Whether or not anything will burn depends upon the context."

But he never told us why Shaeffer's hair did NOT burn.
Nor did he tell us where the heck ROCKET FUEL came into the equation.

Now he is forced to concede that Shaeffer's hair DID burn,
BUT
he wants to pretend that the man who took a full EIGHTEEN MONTHS to recover from a snapped femur
and who allegedly suffered from
not one but TWO cardiac arrests last Oct. 4 2001,
had healed from his burn trauma enough to remove his pressure garments by January 2002.

When Kevin Shaeffer had started work at the Pentagon, he had been on crutches, and for weeks after that he was ``that young lieutenant with the cane'' -- not the sort of distinction that the handsome, athletic Naval Academy graduate enjoyed. Now, 18 months after snapping his thigh bone in a motorcycle wreck, he was finally getting back to normal. His limp melted away a little more each day.
http://www.hamptonroads.com/pilotonline/special/911/pentagon.html

From reading about the life and injuries of Kevin Shaeffer,
we get the distinct impression that second and third burns covering over a third of your body,
take far less time to heal than a broken bone.
Hmph.
And I am not even going to talk about blood circulation.

On edit:
Here are some MORE nice hair photos to look at.
http://www.army.mil/usar/multimedia/disastergalleries/burgess/burgessgallery.html

RH, at the begining of this particular thread, I stated bluntly, that I have YET to see ONE photo of any person who was at the Pentagon on September 11, 2001 and who had burned hair.

What are you going to do about that, Mr Ron Harvey?
Hmmmmm?

[LARED]

88. What????

that I have YET to see ONE photo of any person who was at the Pentagon on September 11, 2001 and who had burned hair.

Except of course the ones you posted.

[DulceDecorum]

90. Point out the one with burned hair

I double dare you.
Hah.
It'll NEVER HAPPEN.

[RH]

91. NEVER EVER EVER EVER actually proved anything?

Yes I did.

I put together "Spot the Lamp Poles" especially to prove that five lamp poles were felled, to defend myself against the offensively malicious, willful stupidity of a Mr. Dick Eastman who had until then subscribed to all sorts of deceptive nonsense over the issue.

http://www.dragonslair.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/77/poles_.htm

[DulceDecorum]

94. Did you now?

I wonder if Mr. Eastman would agree with your assessment...

Why were you defending YOURSELF?
And NOT your theory?

No matter.
Lets go back to the HAIR.
SHOW ME ONE PHOTO WITH BURNED HAIR.

Prove the human-hair-burning capability of the Penta-fire.
I have proved my point, now let's see you prove yours.

[RH]

98. Yes I did.

I was defending myself because I was attacked.

I had no theory to defend.

The point was to demolish Eastman's theory.

Eastman does indeed now agree with my assessment.

He was wrong.

He apologised.

I own no responsibility to show photos.

It is your responsibility to prove your allegation.

Until and unless you can do so you prove nothing but the extent of your derangement.

[Abe Linkman]

99. You didn't PROVE anything.

You found photgraphs which showed some downed lamp poles. They don't prove anything.

[RH]

103. Yes I did.

Photographs of downed lamp poles happen to show (i.e. prove) that the lamp poles were downed.

Others (e.g. Meyssan and Eastman) had asserted, unambiguously, that the lamp poles were not downed.

Now what, I wonder, should be so difficult to grasp about the logic of that?

:shrug:

[Abe Linkman]

113. Who cares? It's like "proving" what the high temperature was today.

If you are proud of what you say you "proved", you really have an exaggerated sense of what is worth proving.

[RH]

116. I am proud

to tell the truth.

If you yourself were to try the same more often perhaps then the circumstance would be easier to appreciate.

[DulceDecorum]

128. And the truth is that they ALL HAVE HAIR

that should have been destroyed by temperatures in excess of 1,000 degrees.
Hair that CANNOT be growing out of skin that underwent THIRD-DEGREE burns.

They have HAIR.
And no-one can explain,
physiologically,
HOW this is possible.

They have HAIR.
THAT is the truth.
As for what we read in the paper.......

[DulceDecorum]

127. And when YOU show NOTHING

what do YOU prove?
That is,
other than the fact that you have YET to actually PROVE anything.

Besides, you are arguing MY case now.
And I am rather enjoying watching you.

[RH]

92. ????????????????????????????????????????

he wants to pretend that the man who took a full EIGHTEEN MONTHS to recover from a snapped femur ?


When did I ever say anything about a snapped femur?

:shrug:

If he had not recovered after eighteen months then I am not at all surprised. I have not yet recovered from a snapped tibia, 30 months after the accident. I yet to have a metal pin removed from the bone. The hospital stay is booked for this October.

[DulceDecorum]

95. 18 months for a femur, 8 months for 40% body burn

29 April 2002
Army Sgt. 1st Class Steve Workman and Navy Lt. Kevin Shaeffer speak with well-wishers. after and award ceremony at the Pentagon April 26. Workman rescued Shaeffer from the burning Pentagon following the terrorist attack Sept. 11. Workman received the Soldier's Medal and Shaeffer received the Purple Heart. Photo by Gerry Gilmore
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2002/n04262002_200204267.html

The skin is the LARGEST and HEAVIEST organ in the body and it is VITAL to the immune system.
Do you REALLY BELIEVE that it can recover completely in EIGHT MONTHS?
Heck, it took NINE MONTHS to make it in the first place!

[RH]

102. recover completely ?

Who said that his skin recovered completely?

Where does that come from?

It is the same technique every time over, isn't it? You invent a fantasy only to then refute it with another fantasy,
:puffpiece: nothing but masturbation.

[DulceDecorum]

115. Where the follicle did the HAIR come from

if the skin has NOT recovered?

[RH]

120. Hair may grow

when skin is not completely recovered, especially if the unrecovered skin is not where the hair grows.

:eyes:

You must try to get a grip.

[RH]

93. YOU were already proved wrong.

If Shaeffer says that his hair was burned then until and unless you can prove otherwise his word stands good.

You have no right, nor any apparent reason (apart from your own demented prejudice) to insist as a matter of fact that this is not the case.

End of story.

Unless perhaps one of the victims of your insidious libel may eventually be moved to litigate against you.

:puke:

[DulceDecorum]

96. REMOVE YOUR BLINKERS

Photo after photo shows the man with a full head of hair.
And Kevin Shaeffer is NOT the only one with a full head of hair.
ALL the people at the Pentagon on September 11,2001 left without having their hair burned off and ALL photographic evidence attests to this fact.
No matter how you try to spin this, that fact remains blatantly obvious.
And if they ALL STILL had their hair when they left,
after enduring what they claim they endured,
then all we can say is that once again,

Muslims Suspend Laws of Physics.
http://www.public-action.com/911/jmcm/physics_1.html

I am NOT at all suprised at your inablity to produce even one photograph showing a properly scorched Penta-head.
Nor am I taken aback by your posturing.
Ecclesiastes 1:15
What is twisted cannot be straightened;
what is lacking cannot be counted.

PS.
About the hairballs you keep coughing up:
http://www.ferretstore.com/3ozliccavfla.html

PPS.
I have the name of Al Franken's lawyer.
You know, Al Franken.
He is the man who wrote the FAIR AND BALANCED book entitled
"Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them."

[RH]

97. Photo after photo shows

the man with a full head of hair.

So when the photos were taken he had hair.

:eyes:



What then is supposed to your proof that he did not have hair "that same day"?

You don't have any, do you?

[DulceDecorum]

108. TKO: RH switched sides.

DulceDecorum is the one claiming that kevin Shaeffer
(and ALL the Penta-people)
HAD hair.

YOU WERE the one saying that his hair was burned off.
Until I convinced you otherwise.

Having hair indicates that he might not have been burned.
NOT having hair is the official line.

First-Degree Burns
.....First-degree burns are not considered serious injuries unless they occur to the hands, feet, face, or genital area. HAIR FOLLICLES ARE RARELY DAMAGED AND SO HAIR WILL CONTINUE TO GROW IN THE BURNT AREA.

Second Degree Burns
.....With deep second-degree burns, REGENERATION OF SKIN MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE and skin grafting may be needed. Patients may be given analgesics to relieve pain and antibiotics to prevent infection.

Third-degree Burns
.....Hair follicles and pain receptors in the wounded area are destroyed. Consequently, the burn victim will not feel any pain in the wounded area, and HAIR WILL NOT GROW BACK.
http://www2.health-center.com/db/TopicReq?SessionID=919772189.1064273063163&&TopicID=393&Action=view

SUSAN DENTZER: Shaeffer suffered SECOND- AND THIRD-DEGREE BURNS over 40 percent of his body, MOSTLY ON HIS HEAD and arms.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/july-dec03/recovering_9-11.html

Finally, RH, we AGREE.
Kevin Shaeffer HAD hair.
Kevin Shaeffer HAS hair.
Kevin Shaeffer has UNDAMAGED hair follicles.


I am afraid, RH that you have scored an own goal.
Match to DulceDecorum.

[LARED]

109. Check mate

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac3/ContentServer?pagename=gallery&galleryid=G41221-2001Nov30&nextstep=13&node=photo/metro

[RH]

111. There was never any doubt

that Shaeffer had hair.

Most people do indeed have hair.

The moot issue was your assertion to the specific effect that he had hair at a particular time.

"ON HIS HEAD" does not neccessarily mean "on his scalp".

I never saw any official line to the effect that he suffered a permanent loss of hair.

An unfortunate confusion of these issues continues to prove that the supposed anomaly arises from an inability to reason sensibly, as opposed that is to any far fetched suggestion of dishonesty on the part of Shaeffer and the hospital staff who treated him.

To pursue this any further please take it up with those involved. In all fairness do you never think that they ought occassionly to be entitled to a right of reply?

:boring:

[Abe Linkman]

114. So, you DO agree Mr. Shaeffer's hair wasn't burnt off his scalp

In spite of the stilted, convoluted, opaque communication style and lack of logic in structure and argument, the message is loud and clear:

You have not refuted DD's claim, nor can you.

[RH]

117. No.

I see no reason to doubt Shaeffer's version of the event.

[Abe Linkman]

119. You have no doubt, in spite of contradictory evidenc e?

"My mind's made up; don't confuse me with the facts" (or photos).

[RH]

122. I have no doubt

because the contradictory evidence that I especially asked DD to produce did not appear and her arguments in other respects do not stand up to examination.

(as was clearly explained in previous messages)

[DulceDecorum]

132. So becuse Dulce did NOT switch sides

you are doing OK?

You asked me to contradict myself and I did not.
Therefore my arguments do NOT stand up?

Let me see if I got this straight.
RH is so confused he does not know which argument is his.
He winds up arguing FOR DulceDecorum.

He then asks DulceDecorum to argue HIS (old) side.
DulceDecorum continues to insist that the Penta-people HAVE hair.
Then RH then pretends to have proved his case,

"because the contradictory evidence that I especially asked DD to produce did not appear..."

RH you are so sharp, you have cut yourself.
You have spun so hard, that you are out of control.

Like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever-spinning reel
As the images unwind
Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind
-- Dusty Springfield.

[DulceDecorum]

130. He won't believe his "lying eyes."

RH is taking a faith-based initiative.

[DulceDecorum]

123. Hair growing on scalp, beard-area, eyebrows, eyelashes

but I haven't checked his nose, ears, and tongue yet.

He NEVER DID suffer any PERMANET LOSS OF HAIR.
That only happens to people who have been severely burned.

And any of the Penta-people can reply anytime they want to.
DU is VERY inclusive.
We let YOU hang around.

And what is that crack about dishonesty?

" .....far fetched suggestion of dishonesty on the part of Shaeffer and the hospital staff who treated him."
:shrug:

Ya mean the man - like - FORGOT he had hair?
Ya mean like the doctors - like - did not put their contacts in?

Do you DARE come out and say that the Penta-medics are "merely" incompetent?
That they CANNOT tell the difference between a seriously burned patient and a stud-muffin?

Lared,
was there a med school at the college you went to?

[LARED]

125. Dulce

What do you have to say about this image.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac3/ContentServer?pagename=gallery&galleryid=G41221-2001Nov30&nextstep=13&node=photo/metro

One of your Penta-heros

Mike Kurtz kisses his wife of over 30 years, with whom he spends 12 hours each day. He is buying special doorknobs that Louise can use even though she has no fingers. Her doctors say there is a very good possibility that she will one day be able to care for herself again.

Notice the loss of hair. Notice the burns. Notice that she is alive. DD why don't you respond to this?

[DulceDecorum]

129. LOUISE KURTZ has HAIR

Look at the photo Lared.
That that ain't skin.
That thar is HAIR.

"When I got out of the building, I heard someone call me, 'Sheila!' and I looked up and it was Louise. SHE WAS SITTING IN THE BACK OF A POLICE CAR. SHE GOT OUT AND CAME OVER TO ME. I could see that she was burned because there was a layer of skin hanging off her arm, but she wasn't bleeding. HER HAIR WAS MATTED LIKE IT HAD REALLY SINGED, but other than that SHE LOOKED FINE."
"I was having a hard time breathing. It was really a struggle to breath and my hands were really hurting. They were bringing people out and they had set up a triage area along the road. She and I were there together and the paramedics were trying to assess who needed immediate help and who didn't. One was going to by pass Louise, and she said, 'No, I need help.'"
Kurtz had suffered burns to her face, back, legs, feet, arms and hands. She lost her fingers and thumbs to amputations necessitated by deep burns. Moody said it was as if KURTZ HAD BEEN "BAKED BY THE FIREBALL" THAT EXPERTS SAY REACHED AS HIGH AS 1,600 DEGREES.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2002/n09092002_200209093.html

Folks,
that thar is the INCREDIBLE PENT-HAIR
I keep telling y'all about.
And that thar is one hot little tomato.

[acerbic]

133. What ever is supposed to be your "POINT"?????????

Are you somehow physiologically unable to tell that, ever?

The pictures show that some of Kurtz's hair was burned, some of it wasn't, matching statement "HER HAIR WAS MATTED LIKE IT HAD REALLY SINGED". So what exactly are you going on about? Are you saying that she really wasn't burned or are you just trying how many hundred posts of incoherent pointless "outrage" you can generate before it's time for a new "mystery" in "Pentagon Thread 5" about how the burn victims from Pentagon weren't in a "boxing position" as all burn victims always are, or whatever...? :crazy:

[LARED]

131. Just to be sure I understand

Your words

If they had truly been inside a blaze then their penta-hair would have been burned off and this would be plain to see in the photographs.

Pretty plain to me a lot of her hair was burned off.

All I want to know is how come they still have hair? How did the hair survive that heat? They say they had second and third degree burns.

Obviously her hair did not survive the damage as parts of her scalp no longer have hair.

Then we can use the same techniques to help the kids who were inside the Station in Rhode Island when it caught fire. And the hundreds of people in burns wards across the nation. These people would LOVE to come out of their ordeal looking as good as our Penta-heroes.

I for one would not want to look like that poor women.

Tell us how the Penta-heores managed to come out of that blaze looking like nothing whatsoever happened to them.

She looks pretty badly hurt to me.

So why do ALL the photos of EVERYONE at the Pentagon on September 11, 2001 ALL have hair?

Yes luckily she has some hair left. What 30 or 40 percent.

Point out the one with burned hair I double dare you. Hah. It'll NEVER HAPPEN. SHOW ME ONE PHOTO WITH BURNED HAIR. Prove the human-hair-burning capability of the Penta-fire.

The image qualifies a one photo.

I have proved my point, now let's see you prove yours.

Actually you have not proved jack. Unless you are attempting to prove you're not wrapped real tight.

I am NOT at all surprised at your inablity to produce even one photograph showing a properly scorched Penta-head.

Actually I spent about 5 minutes looking for one image to shut you up.

[DulceDecorum]

134. WHY DOES SHE HAVE HAIR?

growing on her incredible Penta-scalp?
She is supposed to have experienced THIRD-DEGREE BURNS.
I guess vanity kinda interfered with that.

Lared, you will recall that I pulled a photo of one Janice Jackson who was lying up in hospital being visited by Joyce Rumsfeld.
She had the same hairdresser.

Wait till you see OTHER photos of Louise
and her incredible Penta-hair that
resists temperatures of over 1,000 degrees.

I am SO tempted to post a few pictures of
special-effects make-up artists.
BETTER special-effects make-up artists.
PROFESSIONAL special-effects make-up artists.
Now those guys can make even Dulce, believe.

But I have to give you credit for trying Lared.
You failed to convince anyone here of anything,
but you did come up with ONE photo of a woman with HAIR.

[LARED]

136. Good joke DD

It has become clear that you are merely amusing yourself with this thread. At one point I thought you actually believed that the Pentagon victims were props and your inability to understand reality was caused by your desire to find something to validate the conspiracy voices you hear in your head.

But I have changed my opinion. No one. No one is actually detached from reality enough to believe the crapolla you are trying to sell.

Not even you.

[LARED]

138. Fess up DD

It's a joke. Right? Right?

[RH]

143. I doubt that the victims would laugh

butI dare say that the Devil would.

:evilgrin:

:nuke:

:evilfrown:

[Bolo Boffin]

135. Your five minutes didn't go wasted.

It did nothing to shut Dulce up, but I'm floored upon meeting the Kurtzes.

Amazing, isn't it? Mrs. Kurtz lost all ten of her fingers in the fire, but Dulce begrudges her for her hair.

Give me Mike and Louise over Dulce any day of the week.

[DulceDecorum]

139. Take them, PLEASE take them.

The Senator from Nevada, Mr. Reid, mentioned a woman who I think was Mrs. Kurtz at the Pentagon. MRS LOUISE KURTZ, ALTHOUGH SEVERELY INJURED HERSLF, VALAIANTLY TENDED TO THE NEEDS OF OTHERS AROUND HER. And, indeed, Mr. President, I'm introducing legislation that will change current law so that individuals like Mrs. Kurtz and those in her situation can contribute to her retirement and be able to afford to RETURN TO WORK after a very lengthy period of recuperation.
http://allen.senate.gov/PressOffice/09112002.htm

Louise Kurtz is a woman from the Fredericksburg area of Virginia. She was severely burned on September 11th at the Pentagon. Her ears were burned off. Most of her fingers were burned off. Last year at this time we were at the Phoenix Project of the rebuilding of the Pentagon. She was there and she seems to be recuperating. SHE WANTS TO GET BACK TO WORK. Because of Federal laws, though, she gets diminished retirement benefits.
http://allen.senate.gov/PressOffice/9.11.03.statement.htm

"In addition, IF THE RETIREMENT SECURITY OF TEMPORARILY INJURED FEDERAL EMPLOYEES ARE HARMED, IT IS A DISINCENTIVE FOR THEM TO RETURN TO WORK, which will in turn impact our ability to retain our most dedicated and experienced federal workers."
http://allen.senate.gov/PressOffice/1092002.htm

Boloboffin, tell me,
WHO paid for this woman's meals when she was lying up in hospital?

After you tell me that,
I will tell you who pays for the injured soldiers' meals while they are hospitalized
and I won't even start on the "disincentive to return to work"
or the retirement benefits the GI Joe accrues while undergoing
"a very lengthy period of recuperation."

But there is one marvelous thing about the entire ordeal:

HER HAIR IS GROWING WELL,
SOFT BROWN AND FEATHERED,
WITH HIGHLIGHTS,
and most of the time it hides the place where her ears used to be, where now there is only a slender ridge of cartilage. In August, a specialist made her new prosthetic ears.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A59240-2002Sep9¬Found=true

Make sure you look at the
SCARS REMAIN BENEATH THE WOUNDS gallery
at the Top Right of the page.

Just think, on September 11, 2001,
THIS is the woman who was helping others
DESPITE her own injuries.
Well, the nasty terrorists, may have taken her fingers
and they may have taken her ears with the freckles on them.
But they did not succeed in harming the hair on her head.
Be grateful for small mercies.

[DulceDecorum]

141. EARS

I thought she lost those.....
So what the heck is that thing sitting on the side of her head?

http://www.krislon.net/Woman/Skin/Mask/Egg_Yolk_Clarifying_Mask.htm

[DulceDecorum]

140. What libel?

DulceDecorum is NOT the one who keeps puking at the mention of burn victims.
Or is it becuse you cannot stomach your own statements, RH?

SUSAN DENTZER: So given the Kevin Schaeffer of September 10, 2001, and the Kevin Schaeffer today, physically, what's the difference?

KEVIN SHAEFFER: Well, physically I'm a very different person than I was on September 10th, 2001. I like to say that I was one person then and I'm quite a different person now.
I have a lot of scaring on my back, on my arms, of course, that have been fully grafted, and a bit on my face. My complexion is completely different. The skin that's on my face today is very different skin than existed before ... prior to 9/11 I just had a very smooth complexion, and had a darker complexion than I do today, and these are all kind of real trivial matters because I don't have thick scaring on my face and whatnot, but it is quite different. So if you look at pictures of me prior to 9/11 and me today, it's quite noticeable.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/july-dec03/burn_extended.html







Shaeffer says his hair was burned.
Any fool can see that his hair was umm, er, well....
Well his FACE sure looks different.
He must have had MUCH BETTER CARE than that Louise Kurtz.

[RH]

142. "What libel?"

Do you or do you not allege that Kevin Shaeffer lied?

It is your psychosis, DD, that sickens us.

If you have not yet at least understood that, then you have not yet begun to communicate.

What a waste of time.

:boring:

[DulceDecorum]

144. The Six Million Dollar ham?

It would SO very easy to PROVE me wrong
A wickle-widdle picture of Kevin with NO HAIR would help.
Oh, but I forgot, according to you, his natural modesty precluded him from having any taken. So sowwy.

But the clincher would be an explanation of how the third-degree burns on his head and face (which DESTROYED ALL HIS HAIR FOLLICLES) managed to regenerate hair.

Penta-victim. A body badly burned.
We can rebuild his follicles. We have the technology.
We have the capability to make the world's first Hair-onic man.
This Penta-hero will be that man. Hairier than he was before.
His hair will grow back
Darker . . . stronger . . . thicker . . . faster.

[RH]

147. You were already proved wrong.

If Shaeffer says that his hair was burned then until and unless you can prove otherwise his word stands good.

You have no right, nor any apparent reason (apart from your own demented prejudice) to insist as a matter of fact that this is not the case.

Hair growing again after being burned is not a novelty.



End of story.

Unless perhaps one of the victims of your insidious libel may eventually be moved to litigate against you.

[Bolo Boffin]

50. DD knows how fragile her positions are now

It's clear that she's taken this extreme tactic to try and shame us all away from the truth of what happened that day. Why, I don't know. Perhaps it's projection - punishing us for empowering her inner doubt.

One thing's for sure: she's passionate about it. This goes far beyond the realm of bad joke and/or Freeper trying to discredit the board. She genuinely believe what she's ranting about, even though she's mighty hard to pin down as to what she wants us to believe happened that day. As long as it's not the Official Story, her self-appointed task is evidently done.

Don't you remember the long sidetrack she went into by researching an alleged child prostitution ring in Belgium, back on the old forum? That's when I finally reached past the anonymity of the web and saw the absolute courage and dedication to her principles. It doesn't make her right at all, but I do believe her to be geniune about what she's saying here.

And so, with the passion of a true believer, DD posts images and articles that do not help her position at all. She believes them to, but anyone can see they do not. It's like a Creation Scientist being a tour guide in the Grand Canyon. It's like a biblical literalist trying to fit Moses and Joseph into ancient Egyptian history. It's like Karen Hughes swearing to Tucker Carlson that she's never heard W use profanity. It only flies on the wings of faith, and hell on those who preach heresy.

I hope that DD may one day let this go, and pick up the real questions, the real pieces of the 9/11 puzzle that don't fit. I'm actually beginning to worry about her.

BTW, thanks for the kind word on the blog!

[DulceDecorum]

55. YA GOT NOTHING

and so you attack the person.
And try to change the subject.
Well, it is NOT going to work today.

WHY DO THEY HAVE HAIR?
Ya can't answer that one can you?
Ya can only try to slime and smear me for pointing out the TRUTH.

The storyline -- official.
The photos --- official.
Your panic -- genuine.



The two men met in person last Monday as they prepared to recount their story on NBC's Today show.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/special/terror/front/1086182




The Army officer was just leaving the restroom the plane hit, the impact severe enough to knock him down and create a huge fireball that enveloped him.
"You heard the sound, then the concussion knocks me down and that's when the fireball comes through," he said. "I do not recall seeing fire coming at me -- whether I was laying on my back or otherwise. I remember trying to get to my feet and I'm on fire."
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/15/ret.pentagon.survivor/

The intense heat and smoky blaze that resulted from the fully fueled jetliner crashing into the building has convinced Pentagon officials that anyone who might have survived the initial impact could not have survived the fire.
<snip>
Air inside the Pentagon was heavy with the scent of an electrical fire. In corridors where workers gathered, water and electricity, phone lines and computers were in full use.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/pentagon.terrorism/

Hi, my name is Beth and I am a burn survivor.
I am 31 years old. I live on the Mississippi Gulf
Coast in a tiny little community we call Franklin Creek.
My husband and I had become unemployed on May 24, 2002.
(Just 2 weeks before my accident.)
We live here with our son, 3 dogs, 3 cats and 1 ferret.
On the night of June 11, 2002 a can of expanding foam insulation
(the type of stuff you seal cracks in your house with)
exploded due to accidentally being placed in a burn pile.
I was standing there at the burn pile with my
12 year old son when A huge flash of light and
a loud BOOM surrounded me.
<snip>
This work is still in progress.
Scarring takes a year to 18 months to mature.
I have no idea at this point what kind, or how bad
the scars will be.
At this point, the badly burned areas are
a dark purplish and brown color
I do have white splotches in the less severely
burned areas.
<snip>
Well, it is now March 2003 - 9 months post burn. I still can't go out in the sun. It's going to be another depressing summer. The scar tissue is still forming and the sunlight can permanantly disfigure the scar areas. I had a few set backs this winter. The scar tissue began breaking down, which this is normal sometimes. Stress can cause it to happen. I am still having some problems with stairs and steps. My knees don't want to bend when the time comes for them to. Still wearing the pressure garments as prescribed. They weren't too bad this winter but the temperatures are warming up fast here on the Gulf Coast, so I will just have to deal with it.
It is now August...One year 2 months post burn. I was leery about going into the sunlight but I can't stay cooped up all my life,so I did venture out.The scar tissue turned almost black. I look like I was playing in a mud pit and didn't wash off. There is nothing I can do about it but occasionally I will catch someone staring wondering why I would come out in public without bathing. I have yet to have someone actually come up and ask what happened. Maybe no one ever will.
I think the biggest lesson I've learned is to never judge anyone by appearance. If I see someone a little different, I smile instead of look the other way. Maybe this was the lesson I was to learn from this whole situation. I might never get comfortable with loud booms but, I lived.... for some reason, I lived.
http://mesbeth.fcpages.com/

Can you handle the TRUTH?
http://www.burnsurvivorusa.com/table_of_contents.shtml
http://www.burnsurvivorusa.com/other_stories_01.shtml

Boloboffin, you mentioned my concern for children.

Each year, 30,000 American children receive massive burn injuries affecting more than 70 percent of the body surface, according to the Journal of the American Medical Association. In the Washington-Baltimore area alone, 250 children are treated annually for serious burn injuries. These brave survivors face great challenges. Many are tested by physical impairment and/or disfigurement, and the isolation that often results from social difficulties and lowered self-esteem.
http://www.flickerofhope.org/

There are 1.25 million burn injuries each year in the United States. In California alone, each year 10,000 people are burned severely enough to require medical attention; 4,500 are children. Recognizing that prevention education is essential to avoid the agony of burn injuries, the Burn Foundation has produced a variety of innovative prevention materials and programs that are distributed throughout California and all over the world.
The Burn Foundation's survivor assistance programs are designed to relieve emotional suffering, create opportunities for socializing, and help build the skills necessary to cope in a society that highly values physical appearance.
http://www.aarbf.org/theneed.htm

acerbic, Boloboffin, I realise that you probably find this all quite boring. But the people who have cannot fast-forward to Utopia find it only painful.

Mason herself spent three months in the hospital and then underwent two years of physical therapy at both ACH and the Arkansas Specialty Hand Therapy Center. Even with numerous surgeries and skin grafts, Mason struggled with scars and both physical and emotional pain.
“When I looked in the mirror, it was like looking at a stranger. I grieved as though someone very close to me had died,” she said. “In fact, one acquaintance asked me what I was going to do now that my life was over.”
http://www.ach.uams.edu/whatscurrent/burnsurvivor.html
http://www.viewnews.com/2002/VIEW-Feb-20-Wed-2002/Summerlin/18085903.html
http://www.ecm-inc.com/news/princeton/2001/october/4burnvictim.html
http://www.trinex.net/users/kemii/story1.html

CARBONDALE, Ill. --In the days and weeks following the September terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, D.C., the nation rightly focused its attention on the victims. But now it's time to focus on the survivors, especially those who were badly burned and disfigured, says a medical social worker at Southern Illinois University Carbondale.
http://www.siuc.edu/backissues/011101/

People like Brian Birdwell?
Sheila Moody?
Janice Annn Jackson?
Millionaire Juan Cruz-Santiago?
Marilyn Wills?
And the list goes on.

People who were burned.
People who were disfigured.
Those are the people who NEED our compassion.

[acerbic]

21. A burn victim can't have HAIR...

Yeah, the world seems to be pretty full of lying pretend burn victims conspiring something:

http://images.google.com/images?q=burn+victim&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search

...or maybe this "theory" is again just the usually pointless drivel. :eyes:

[demodewd]

22. re:drivel

She can't be serious?

[acerbic]

23. Well, could somebody really have no life experience or even experience

...of watching tv to know that a burn victim can indeed have hair left? Hmm... maybe if one is spending every minute generating conspiracy theories totally detached from reality. :shrug:

[DulceDecorum]

24. ABSOLUTE reality

I clicked on the Google Image link offered by acerbic.
Very many of the images are special effects and Halloween pictures showing people dressing up as burn victims. That is why those individuals, like the ENTIRE Pentagon-survivor crew, have hair.

Other links lead to pages like this

The accident few would want to survive
http://www.azstarnet.com/clips/trialbyfire/day1.html

Family, victim fight despair
http://www.azstarnet.com/clips/trialbyfire/day2.html

Family strongly supports the new, different Jason
http://www.azstarnet.com/clips/trialbyfire/day3.html

Where one sees that a REAL burn victim suffers incredible and PERMANENT trauma.
And they LOSE their damn hair.

Read the descriptions of the burn injuries of Jason Schechterle.
Compare them to the descriptions of the burn injuries of John Yates.
The two cases are practically identical.

Now look at the pictures of the two men.
And then come back and tell me HOW the hell John Yates still had a full head of hair while he was recuperating in Intensive Care.
John Yates even managed to have a wicked five-o'clock shadow despite the fact that he claims his burns are the kind that DESTROYS hair follicles.

"I'm not sure we did this guy a favor," thought fire Capt. Michael Ore after the rescue of Schechterle.
THAT is reality.
THAT is truth.
Unless, of course, you think that the Phoenix Police Department and DuclceDecorum have conspired with the Associated Press and Google to present this story and the accompanying images.
If that is what you are claiming, then your argument smacks of



Drink responsibly.

[DulceDecorum]

25. No death experience

Still, Moody remained seated at her desk. After the explosion, there was only quiet and the stink of jet fuel, she said. Burning office fixtures created a trap — there was no obvious way out for the two women in an office where the fire’s temperature reached 1,600 degrees.
http://www.uticaod.com/news/specialreports/911anniversary/sept11/moody.htm

11/5/02 -- This long - very long - analysis of the crash at the Pentagon on 9/11/01 is highly flawed and lacking in critical and important knowledge about melting points of metals, crash dynamics, etc. etc. The melting point of aluminum is around 1220 degrees F. The fire that was generated in the Pentagon fire was well above this and easily melted any aluminum parts of the plane that were inside the building.
<snip>
11/6/02 -- My source for the aluminum of the jet melting in the Pentagon fire is the experience and training of seven years as a paid firefighter. Not only have I seen the skin of trailer homes melt away in a short-duration fire, but I have also witnessed the aluminum siding of semi-trailers melt away under low fire load and short-duration fires. It doesn’t take long for a low-intensity fire to
melt substantial amounts of aluminum.
http://www.christian-patriots.us/PentagonCrashAnalysis.html

When American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon on Sept. 11, 2001, it penetrated the building's second story at a 45-degree angle and careened through the Pentagon's top three floors. The jet was carrying about 20,000 gallons (76000 L) of jet fuel, much of which was deposited on the roof. The fuel ignited and burned at a temperature of about 1,100 F (593 C).
http://www.professionalroofing.net/current/feature.asp

First-floor columns 5M, 5N, 3M, and 3N—located in Ring C, toward the end of the damage path—sustained thermal damage in the form of longitudinal cracks and corner spalling. Some sections of the columns appeared blackened, probably as a result of direct exposure to flame caused by partial loss of interior finishes. It took a little more than one hour of exposure to ISO 834—at a corresponding ambient temperature of about 1,740°F (950°C)—for the longitudinal cracks and corner spalling to develop in laboratory test columns. This indicates that the temperature of the fire at this location might have reached a similar level.
http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0203feat.html

John Yates doesn’t remember much about his trip through hell, just that everything he touched seemed to be burning: “In my mind, I hear somebody saying go out through the DMPM door,” one of the doors that led from the cubicle farm into the 4th Corridor. I knew I was going in the right direction because I could feel water. I DISTICTLY REMEMBER STANDING UP AND WALKING TO OUTWARD TOWARD THE CENTER COURTYARD.”
http://www.govexec.com/features/0902/0902s1.htm

Could your family survive a fire?
Most of us would answer yes, thinking of fire in the movies. Unfortunately, fire does not live up to these expectations. AS THRILLING AS THE IDEA OF CRASHING INTO A BURNING BUILDING TO SAVE SOMEONE MAY SOUND, IN REALITY, THIS WOULD KILL YOU IN JUST MINUTES. Since heated air rises, temperatures increase about 100 F every foot. So, at six feet up, the temperature would be 600 F. AT THESE TEMPERATURES A PERSON CAN BE INSTANTLY BURNED TO DEATH. http://ohioline.osu.edu/aex-fact/0690.html

Mind you they are talking about a piddling 600 degrees and we have it on record that the Pentagon fire was well over 1,000 degrees.
Hot enough to melt metal.
But not hot enough to BURN HAIR.

One of the articles mentioned spalling.
Remember that word.
Spalling.
We will come back to it later.

[DulceDecorum]

30. Re: Serious drivel

"I heard a whistling, like a whistling sound and then a rumble, and then just a big whoosh," Moody said, her voice raspy from smoke inhalation. "It felt like air at first but then I realized it was fire, just a big ball of fire. It felt like it came in through the window and just engulfed us."
Moody spent weeks in the hospital recovering from severe smoke inhalation and third-degree burns. But after six months, the only visible signs of her ordeal are the slight scarring on her face, and the glove-like bandages that match the natural medium-brown tone of her skin. With her hands held clasped in front, it is hard to know anything had happened.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/pentagon020311.html

Yeah, she really doesn't look as if ANYTHING ever happened to her.

Sheila Moody, in Room 472, heard a whoosh and a whistle and she wondered where all this air was coming from. Then a blast of fire that left as fast as it came. She looked down and saw her hands aflame, so she shook them. She saw some light from a window but could not reach it and could not find anything to break it with in any case. Then she heard a voice. "Hello!" a man called out. "I can't see you."
Hello, she called back, and clapped her hands. She heard him approach and sensed the shoosh of A FIRE EXTINGUISHER and then saw him through a cloud of smoke, the rescuer who would bring her out and ease her fear that she would never get to see her grandchildren.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A38407-2001Sep15

QUESTION:
How many seconds does it take for a fire extinguisher to run out?
At what temperature will a fire extinguisher explode?

I saw as I ran up, I said, "Dear lord, give me the strength for what I'm about to do." I ripped my undershirt off, and I crawled through a window and I pulled the first victim out. I ran her to safety. As I came back, I grabbed another, and another. On my fourth time back, I went back into that building three times, ran four to safety. But during this time, on my last time in, A THREE STAR GENERAL came up and said, "You can't go back in there," and I just ignored him, because I knew what I had to do.
I went in anyway. And I reached into the clouds, a cloud of smoke. I could barely see, and my face felt like the sun was kissing me, and it was just heated smoke. It was incredible. And I just reached through and I grabbed this woman that was there clapping, because she couldn't breathe. And as I grabbed from her, she came out, and all I remember of her -- her face was ashed, her hands were bloody, and she was just burned quite a bit of her body.
http://npc.press.org/programs/press_conf/020312healingtheamericanspirit.htm

Sheila got over those "body burn" REAL fast, didn't she folks?
And that "ashed' face cleaned up very well before the camera crews accompanying Joyce Rumsfeld showed up in Intensive Care.

Immediately following the intended crash of American Airlines Boeing Flight 757 into the west wedge of the Pentagon at 9:38 a.m. on a bright autumn day, Braman offered his body and Army experience to help in any way he could. As it turned out, Braman stayed at the crash site for three days straight looking for life.
As he prepared to go into America's damaged symbolic defense fortress, Braman said he told himself, "Dear Lord, give me the strength for what I'm about to do...follow me through here."
What he then experienced was something unimaginable, or at least, straight out of a war movie. WITH A FIRE BURNING AROUND 2,000 DEGREES, Braman, an airborne Ranger soldier who was working as a purchasing agent at the Army's General Officer Mess in the Pentagon, had to breath jet fuel, asbestos, carbon dioxide, human matter, computer and office furniture in his frantic search for survivors.
<snip>
Seconds became minutes, and minutes became hours. The next thing I knew it was 1:47 in the afternoon. I was very fortunate to get out before that area collapsed. I can't explain why things happen."
During one search, Braman heard a clapping sound. As he went to it, he discovered a woman who couldn't speak because of intense smoke inhalation, but was able to clap for help.
That woman was Sheila Moody, an Army civilian accountant.
http://www.army.mil/usar/news/2002/09-11anniv/braman.html

AN ARMY SOLDIER WHO RESCUED 63 PEOPLE FROM THE PENTAGON on Sept. 11 helped DCMA celebrate a record-breaking CFC campaign during a Victory Celebration Feb. 8, 2002. Staff Sgt. Christopher Braman delivered his inspirational speech to a packed auditorium at DCMA headquarters in Northern Virginia.
<snip>
Braman relayed his story about the events that unfolded following the attack on the Pentagon. "I looked up, and when I saw the windows - it was just pure terror. I just ripped my undershirt off and said 'dear Lord, give me strength for what I'm about to do,' and I wasn't afraid," he said.
Braman went on to say that his "training and belief in God" allowed him to accomplish the mission at hand without fear or hesitation. TWO MINUTES BEFORE THE BUILDING COLLAPSED, Braman made his final trip into the building and pulled out his last survivor, Sheila Moody, who dubbed him her "guardian angel."
http://www.dcma.mil/communicator/localhero.htm

Barely visible through the thick smoke, I noticed a man dodging falling concrete while walking with a severely burned woman. This man was Staff Sgt. Chris Braman, and the woman he was carrying was Sheila Moody. She was so badly burned that she could not speak to call out for help. All she could do was clap her hands and pray that someone would find her. Braman had answered her prayers by continuing to search through the smoke and fire until he located her.
http://www.gwu.edu/~magazine/2002_fall/docs/feature_heroes.html

The plane approached the Pentagon about six feet off the ground, clipping a light pole, a car antenna, a construction trailer and an emergency generator before slicing into the building, said Lee Evey, the manager of the Pentagon's ongoing billion-dollar renovation.
The plane penetrated three of the Pentagon's five rings, but was probably stopped from going farther by hundreds of concrete columns. The plane peeled back as it entered, leaving pieces of the front of the plane near the outside of the building and pieces from the rear of the aircraft farther inside, Evey said.
The plane hit part of the Pentagon that had already been renovated with blast-resistant windows, a special reinforced steel construction, a sprinkler system and fire-resistant Kevlar cloth.
THE FLOORS JUST ABOVE THE IMPACT REMAINED INTACT FOR 35 MINUTES AFTER THE CRASH, allowing many people in those offices to escape, Evey said.
http://www.detnews.com/2001/nation/0110/06/nation-312016.htm

Nicholas Holland, an engineer with AMEC Construction Management of Bethesda, Md., had spent the last two years working to reinforce the walls. Two summers ago, a blast wall of reinforced steel and concrete was installed right where the plane hit. IT STOOD 25 MINUTES AFTER IT WAS HIT BEFORE COLLAPSING, long enough for people to escape, Holland said.
http://www.detnews.com/2001/nation/0109/11/nation-291261.htm

Poor Sheila Moody had to spend about thirty minutes in that 1,000 degree heat before she was rescued.

Anyone here know how cook a roast?

[DulceDecorum]

28. Hair and a REAL Burn Survivor

I'm Donna Carson and I'm a Burn survivor. On Good Friday 1st April 1994 my jealous, obsessive new partner physically attacked me, threw petrol in my face and down the front of me and ignited me.

It was not even 6 o'clock in the afternoon, with tea cooking and the washing on. My sons' Easter eggs were hidden on top of the cupboard while I lay in my own backyard burnt black and dying. My precious boys witnessing this unbelievable horror. They were 12 and 2 years old.

I had become yet another statistic of the most common form of assault in Australia - Domestic Violence.

I suffered full thickness burns up to 65% of my body - entire face, neck, chest, shoulders, arms, hands, all fingers, legs and feet. With extensive and permanent damage to throat, airway and lungs it was considered to be more merciful, more humane if I did die.
http://www.burnsurvivors.com.au/donna.html
http://www.burnsurvivors.com.au/donnas-photos.html

[DulceDecorum]

60. How stuff works

Why didn't the automatic sprinklers put out the fire?

These sprinkler systems spray water. In some very esoteric areas (like kitchens and mainframe computer areas), you will find specialized systems, but everywhere else the fire suppressant is water. This makes sense, because water works very well on things like paper and fabric fires that you find in a normal office setting. Water does nothing, however, to stop a gasoline fire. The gas (or in this case, jet fuel) simply floats on the water and keeps burning.
<snip>
Even if there had been a foam system or some other system capable of extinguishing the jet fuel, it would not have been sized to handle 20,000 gallons of fuel, and it still would have been damaged and unable to function properly.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/sept-eleven5.htm

Jet fuel is a colorless, combustible, straight run petroleum distillate liquid. Its principal uses are as an ingredient in lamp oils, charcoal starter fluids, jet engine fuels and insecticides.
It is also know as, fuel oil #1, kerosene, range oil, coal oil and aviation fuel.
It is comprised of hydrocarbons with a carbon range of C9 - C17. The hydrocarbons are mainly alkanes CnH2n+2, with n ranging from 9 to 17.
It has a flash point within the range 42° C - 72° C (110° F - 162° F).
And an ignition temperature of 210° C (410° F).
Depending on the supply of oxygen, jet fuel burns by one of three chemical reactions:

(1) CnH2n+2 + (3n+1)/2 O2 => n CO2 + (n + 1) H2O

(2) CnH2n+2 + (2n+1)/2 O2 => n CO + (n + 1) H2O

(3) CnH2n+2 + (n+1)/2 O2 => n C + (n + 1) H2O

Reaction (1) only occurs when jet fuel is well mixed with air before being burnt, as for example, in jet engines.
Reactions (2) and (3) occur when a pool of jet fuel burns. When reaction (3) occurs the carbon formed shows up as soot in the flame. This makes the smoke very dark.
http://www.uscrusade.com/forum/config.pl/read/1064

Material Safety Data Sheet JET A AVIATION FUEL
www.cpchem.com/MSDS/fuels/performance/ JetAAviationFuel.pdf -

The key would have been slowing the fires. The sprinkler systems offered little help.
Even if the pipes survived the impact, the sprinklers of a typical skyscraper put out a few hundred gallons of water a minute for half an hour, Dr. Thornton said, and water would have been useless against a fuel fire in any case. (Water and oil don't mix; droplets of water sink into the fuel, turn into hot steam and explode, and the fuel continues burning.)
By contrast, an anti-fire system at an aircraft hangar can unleash a deluge of 120,000 gallons a minute of water and foam --which sticks to burning fuel-- for two hours straight, Dr. Thornton said.
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/NYTimes91801.htm

The environmental features surpass all similar facilities in the United States. This new state-of-the-art prop provides training opportunities for professionals who respond to and assist in major incidents involving an aircraft emergency. The prop includes a mockup of the major components of three types of aircraft. Training scenarios can involve fires in a wide-body jet (DC-10 or B747), narrow body jet (737 or MD-80), or a commuter aircraft. The prop is capable of burning nearly 1,000 gallons of jet fuel per minute and creates a spectacular realistic fire while in use. Providing a realistic opportunity to prepare employees, emergency responders, and other allied professionals who may be involved in an event of this magnitude is critical to the protection of the public.
Flammable Liquids Prop - The flammable liquids prop has eight burn pads. Fuel is pumped to each burn pad from a 22,000-gallon tank farm which stores gasoline, diesel fuels, and liquified petroleum gas. A safety tower provides oversight of all operations. Safety officers can stop any operation by remote control that might be hazardous.
<snip>
The Fire Training Academy is working toward developing a foam prop so students can also use foam to extinguish fires.
http://www.wsp.wa.gov/fire/props.htm

But they didn't have foam at the training school and they soon ran out of foam at the Pentagon.

Commercial jet fuel, known as Jet-A, is pure kerosene and has a flashpoint of 120 degrees Fahrenheit (49 degrees Celsius). It is a high-quality fuel, however, and if it fails the purity and other quality tests for use on jet aircraft, it is sold to other ground-based users with less demanding requirements, like railroad engines. Commercial jet fuel as well as military jet fuel often includes anti-freeze to prevent ice buildup inside the fuel tanks.
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Evolution_of_Technology/fuel/Tech21.htm

It is safe to assume that the Boeing 757 known as Flight 77 had this type of fuel on board.
Many of the Pentagon survivors have stated that they smelled jet fuel. Others have said that the jet fuel got on their clothing or skin.
Building and damage reports indicate that temperatures over 1,000 degrees were reached.

Why is it that the jet fuel did not spontaneously ignite under those conditions?

We have been given to understand that water is useless against jet fuel.

When American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon on Sept. 11, 2001, it penetrated the building's second story at a 45-degree angle and careened through the Pentagon's top three floors. The jet was carrying about 20,000 gallons (76000 L) of jet fuel, much of which was deposited on the roof. The fuel ignited and burned at a temperature of about 1,100 F (593 C).
<snip>
When the jet fuel ignited, it quickly spread through much of the wood sheathing and destroyed the roof system along one of the Pentagon's five corridors, as well as much of the roof system on one section of the innermost ring and one section of the outer ring. In all, about 40,000 square feet (3600 m2) of the slate roof system was damaged beyond repair. After the explosion, firefighters poured more than 6 million gallons (22.8 million L) of water on the roof.
According to one Pentagon official, "The roof did its job: It shed the water perfectly" while the fire spread through the sheathing beneath it. Firefighters apparently didn't know the roof sys-tem incorporated wood sheathing and reportedly assumed insulation was burning. Only when they broke through the slate did the fire stop spreading.
http://www.professionalroofing.net/current/feature.asp

Yet and still,
the good Lord God came to the resue of his faithful servant,
Brian Birdwell.

Perhaps no one epitomizes that sentiment as much as Brian Birdwell, the 40-year-old lieutenant colonel whose office was four windows from where the plane hit but whose life was spared because he had stepped out to the bathroom. He was consumed by fire and cried out: "Jesus, I'm coming to see you." He thought of his family and waited to die. Instead, he fell under a sprinkler and was left with serious burns over 40 percent of his body.
<snip>
Since the attack, Birdwell has become something of a celebrity, a word he doesn't like. He does a lot of public speaking and has appeared on Nightline, The Oprah Winfrey Show, Fox News, and local television stations. "If people want to celebrate what the Lord has done in my life, I'll take that," he says. "I'm not interested in celebrity for the sake of notoriety. I'm still Brian." He isn't sure about his future–he may retire from the Army in five years after 23 years. He may become a university professor of military science. Perhaps he'll write a book. Perhaps he'll do more public speaking, possibly donating proceeds to burn patients. "My public speaking is the best contribution I can make both to my faith and to the Army," he says.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/9_11/articles/911pentagon.htm
(After more than 2 dozen
surgeries he tells others he claims a Bible promise from First Peter.
"After you have suffered a little while" God will "perfect, confirm,
strengthen and establish you." )

"The initial shock took out power, sprinklers, everything. It was completely black. The ceiling and the walls had come down." Lieut Megan Humbert, the watch leader, screamed at him to open the meeting-room door.
<snip>
Soaked by the sprinklers and battling through the smoke, he and five colleagues eventually found a blackened figure slumped on the floor. "He was very badly burned," said Lt Col McKinnon, 40.
"He had collapsed right under a sprinkler and that was all that saved him. His face was blackened. His hands and arms - the skin was literally hanging off in bloody shreds."
As he helped to carry the man out, he glanced down at his name tag and saw that it was a friend, Lt Col Brian Birdwell. "He and I had gone to staff college a year before. We used to go running together. He was unrecognisable."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/campaigns/war/survivor.xml

Birdwell walked out to the men's room in corridor 4, a move that saved his life. He had just taken three or four steps out of the bathroom when the building was rocked. "Bomb!" the Gulf War vet immediately thought as he was knocked down. When he stood up, he realized he was on fire. "Jesus, I'm coming to see you," Birdwell prayed. His mind flashed to his family. At Washington Hospital Center, Dr. Marion Jordan also was watching TV when an announcer broke in with the bulletin about the Pentagon. "This is gonna be a long day," Jordan muttered. Quickly, he ditched his sport coat for green scrubs. "Code Orange. Code Orange," a voice blared over the hospital's PA system. "This is not a drill." Doctors scrambled to the five bays near the helicopter pad. "It was pretty much bedlam," says Jordan, the Burn Center director. A clinical manager with a booming voice yelled above the din: "Everyone keep the volume down!" The quiet lasted until the first patients arrived.
<snip>
At 350 miles per hour, the Boeing 757 slammed into the first and second floors of the Pentagon's western face at a 45-degree angle between corridors 4 and 5. The plane blasted through rings E, D, and C, and parts of it were found between rings C and B. It damaged some 400 support columns, some severely and some with microfractures. The plane sliced through part of the building's recently renovated section, which was reinforced by floor-to-ceiling steel beams. Between the beams was a Kevlar-like mesh, similar to the material in bulletproof vests, designed to keep concrete from turning into shrapnel. Together, the reinforcement kept the upper floors from collapsing for about 35 minutes. The new blast-resistant windows did not shatter. THE NEW SPRINKLER SYSTEM KEPT THE FIRE FROM SPREADING.
http://www.hjpa.org/morenews.html

As you can see from this slide, I had crossed the path of the plane in going to the restroom and was just seconds from being in the direct path of the plane at the time of impact. You can also discern that I sit here before you today as the result of Christ's miraculous hand.
<snip>
In those moments immediately after impact, I reacted with the survival instinct of trying to save myself. I attempted to get to my feet, but was unable given the concussion and blast of the explosion and the subsequent vacuum being filled effect on my sense of balance. After an undetermined amount of time I eventually accepted my death and collapsed to the floor and waited for whatever the feeling is of the soul departing the body. By God's grace that feeling never arrived. Instead, I could feel liquid running down my face. I had collapsed under one of the functioning WATER SPRINKLERS that were still working, which doused the flames on and around me. My eventual evacuation and treatment Georgetown University Hospital may include other details in which you are interested but in the interest of time let me move forward.
http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing1/witness_birdwell.htm

In addition to major overhauls of the mechanical and electrical systems, the Wedge One renovation included the FIRE SPRINKLERS, automatic fire doors, and the steel which saved many lives on the day of the attack.
http://www.architectureweek.com/2001/1003/news_1-2.html

In the renovated section outside the immediate impact zone, most damage was caused by smoke and water that poured out of NEWLY INSTALLED SPRINKLERS. But there was extensive fire damage hundreds of feet away in unrenovated areas that had not yet had sprinklers installed.
http://www.servicemasterclean.com/pentagon/gallery.html
The Pentagon called ServiceMaster Clean at 11:30 a.m. on the 11th. The ServiceMaster Recovery Management staff, dedicated to catastrophic disaster mitigation and restoration, was on the move by noon, and was at the Pentagon on September 12th. At 8:30 a.m. that day, a crew of 50 ServiceMaster Clean technicians mustered in the Pentagon's western parking lot. Supplies and people from ServiceMaster Clean local offices were mobilizing up and down the East Coast and as far away as Michigan.
http://www.servicemasterclean.com/pentagon/

She hollered, “Help me! Help me,” hoping someone would hear her cries. Just as she was about to succumb, the FIRE SPRINKLERS released a refreshing and reviving jolt to all in the area.
“The FIRE SPRINKLERS were about maybe 6 feet, 7 feet apart, and that’s what provided me air as I was crawling behind John’s feet,” said Grant. “Each time I got to a sprinkler, I would sink really low to catch my breath to make it to the next sprinkler.”
http://144.246.219.246/newspaper/Specials/911/index2.htm

Fire sprinklers were also installed in the Wedge 1 renovation. “There was a fire that raged through Wedge 2, the unrenovated area. If you look at Wedge 1, except in areas where it was clearly fueled by jet fuel, THE FIRE WAS KNOCKED DOWN BY THE FIRE SPRINKLERS. THERE WAS NO SPREAD WHATSOEVER,” he says.
http://www.contractortoolsandsupplies.com/past/contractor_profiles/RebuildingThePentagon.htm

The impact and explosion that occurred when terrorists crashed a hijacked airliner into the side of the building devastated a significant area on five floors of the world renowned US military headquarters. However, water damage--resulting from fire hoses, automatically activated sprinklers systems, and shattered water lines-- affected nearly 2.5 million square feet of space adjacent to the crash area that otherwise would have been left intact!
"Millions of gallons of water flowed throughout the building after the attack," said Joe Kelley, Munters district manager in the Washington DC area. In some places water was 18 inches deep on the floors."
http://www.muntersmcs.com/mcs/htm/pentagon/pentagon.htm

Remember, it's important to use the correct type of extinguisher for the fire at hand. You should not use a water type extinguisher for a flammable liquid fire because it would cause the fire to spread. And you would not use this type of extinguisher on an electrical fire because this would expose you to a serious or fatal shock.
http://siri.uvm.edu/library/topics/fire/facts.html

[DulceDecorum]

63. Jet fuel fire put out by water

A fire extinguisher should be the proper type and strategically located around the residence. Unless you require the Hazardous Materials Team or encounter a Jet Fuel fire in your home, the type of extinguisher known as "ABC" should generally cover your needs.
http://www.securerite.com/sbs/inside_fire_extinguisher.asp

Caution: Using the wrong kind of fire extinguisher could be dangerous. For example, using water on some solvents can actually spread the fire. Check with your supervisors on the type of fire extinguisher to be used.
Even if you have right extinguisher, you must use it correctly to be effective:
Water Spray or Fog: Direct the water at the base of the flames
Dry Chemical: Direct the chemical spray at the base of the flames
CO2 (Carbon Dioxide): Direct the spray as close to the fire as possible.
Foam and "Alcohol" Foam: Allow the foam to fall lightly on the fire. Do not spray directly into the fire.
http://www.ipcl.co.in/ipcl/products/handle.htm

"Automatic sprinklers are located on the first floor and in the film-storage vaults on the top floor as well as on the roof. One hundred twenty-eight standpipe systems with an average of 125 feet of fire hose in 672 hose cabinets are distributed throughout the building. portable fire extinguishers are readily available, as are carbon dioxide fire extinguishers on wheels, which are located in the corridors, and 465 fire alarm boxes. Rooms with special fire hazards are equipped with automatic fire fighting systems. Outside the building there are 41 fire hydrants, and an additional 14 wall hydrants are inside court areas. Guards trained in fire fighting are on duty around the clock, more help is available from nearby fire departments if it is needed."
— Gene Gurney, USAF, The Pentagon - A Pictorial Story, 1964. p26.
http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/The_Pentagon.html

The Pentagon's first responders "clearly showed their courage. They went back into the building. Some stood knee- deep in water, turning off electrical circuits at the risk of electrocution," Cooke said. "They moved into this environment with falling debris. They held back fires with fire extinguishers while other people got out.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2002/n03062002_200203061.html

At some point, a Navy petty officer ran up and said they needed fire extinguishers, so we got some from a fire extinguisher closet and ran toward the smoke. When we got to the Pentagon courtyard, there was a lot of smoke and debris. We went inside the building near the crash site, and we were up to our ankles in this brackish liquid. I thought a water main had broken, but it was a really bad-smelling mixture of jet fuel and water. Then we heard people coughing, and several of us decided to go in further to try and help them.
http://207.27.3.29/dailyfed/0802/083002nj5.htm

So the fire extinguishers and the sprinklers put out the fire.
Didn't they?
Or do we have yet another Pentanomaly?

Tin with paper money and coins
Description: This burned paper currency and tin of melted coins were recovered from the damaged offices in the Pentagon.
Context: When the hijacked airplane was crashed into the Pentagon, the jet fuel ignited a huge fire. The heat from the blaze was so intense that it melted coins stored in this tin on an office worker’s desk.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=11

[LARED]

107. If DD wants proof see this;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac3/ContentServer?pagename=gallery&galleryid=G41221-2001Nov30&nextstep=1&node=photo/metro

DD, make sure you look at all the images in the slide show. Particularly the last one, - number 13.

[DulceDecorum]

145. With apologies to Don Black and John Barry.

THIS ONE GOES OUT TO ALL THE PENTA-PEOPLE
WHOSE EFFORTS ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2001
HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PHOTOGRAPHIC AND PUBLISHED ACCOUNTS
POSTED ON THIS THREAD.


Burn free, as free as the wind blows

http://www.usmedicine.com/article.cfm?articleID=384&issueID=38

As free as the grass grows

http://www.govsux.com/penta-lawn.htm

Burn free to follow your heart




Live free, and beauty surrounds you

http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=16
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0802/083002nj3.htm
http://207.27.3.29/dailyfed/0802/083002nj2.htm

The world still astounds you

http://www.classbrain.com/artfree/publish/article_106.shtml

Each time you look at your star

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=488



Stay free, where no walls divide you


You're free as a roaring tide

So there's no need to hide

http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/attack-response/03.html



Burn free, and life is worth living


But only worth living


Cause you're .... ....

[DulceDecorum]

146. NEW THREAD

Please post on this new thread.
The Pentagon Thread: Part 5
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=3156