Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

more evidence of the LIHOP theory

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 12:30 PM
Original message
more evidence of the LIHOP theory
Edited on Wed Jan-28-09 12:33 PM by seemslikeadream
while georgie got us all scared to death of non-existent terrorists this LIHOP occurred

the agents with the expertise had been diverted to counter terrorism




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3710944&mesg_id=3710955

FBI saw mortgage fraud early
Posted by Robbien on Wed Jan-28-09 11:09 AM

Source: Seattle Post

The FBI was aware for years of "pervasive and growing" fraud in the mortgage industry that eventually contributed to America's financial meltdown, but did not take definitive action to stop it.

"It is clear that we had good intelligence on the mortgage-fraud schemes, the corrupt attorneys, the corrupt appraisers, the insider schemes," said a recently retired, high FBI official. Another retired top FBI official confirmed that such intelligence went back to 2002.



"We knew that the mortgage-brokerage industry was corrupt," the first of the retired FBI officials told the Seattle P-I. "Where we would have gotten a sense of what was really going on was the point where the mortgage was sold knowing that it was a piece of dung and it would be turned into a security. But the agents with the expertise had been diverted to counter terrorism."

. . .

Both retired FBI officials asserted that the Bush administration was thoroughly briefed on the mortgage fraud crisis and its potential to cascade out of control with devastating financial consequences, but made the decision not to give back to the FBI the agents it needed to address the problem. After the terrorist attacks of 2001, about 2,400 agents were reassigned to counter terrorism duties.

Read more: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/397690_fbiweb28.html?source=mypi
Refresh | 0 Recommendations Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. You really think that Bush let the global financial crisis happen on purpose?
Really?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. more like he made it happen
you know all those rules and stuff he discarded
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I doubt if he thought ....
discarding the rules would lead to financial disaster. It's more likely, like the true-believer "magic of the market" kind of guys he is, he believed what he did would be good for the economy. This is why we dems have to focus so much on fixing things when we replace a Republican president.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Ah, so contrary to what you posted in the OP, you see this as evidence of MIHOP not LIHOP
Edited on Wed Jan-28-09 05:00 PM by Bolo Boffin
OK. I repeat: Do you REALLY think that Bush intended for the global financial crisis to happen?

REALLY?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Bush only wanted to help America!
Edited on Wed Jan-28-09 05:58 PM by wildbilln864
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Life is something totally different from your false dichotomies. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. definitely made it happen, even if by accident
then, when the meltdown was obvious, let it happen and made it worse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
100. Now is the time to arrest and give a fair trial to every member of the Bush administration who broke
Edited on Tue Feb-10-09 01:32 PM by seemslikeadream
THE LAW


http://consortiumnews.com/2009/021009a.html

A Government of Laws, Not of Men

By Peter Dyer
February 10, 2009

Editor’s Note: Washington insiders are divided into two basic groups over what to do about the sordid history of the Bush administration: one side wants a “truth” commission but no jail time, and the other side says do nothing beyond thanking George W. Bush and his aides for a job well done.

But there is a grassroots movement out there that battled the Bush administration’s crimes as they were happening – often in the face of disdain from the insiders – and that group believes serious accountability must be achieved if the health of the American Republic is to be restored, a position shared by journalist Peter Dyer:

Now that the unprecedented lawlessness of the Bush administration is history, we have an equally unprecedented opportunity to reaffirm the foundation of American democracy: the rule of law.

Restoring the rule of law is as urgent as restoring the economy. Indeed, the problems are closely related and best addressed together.

...

Now a private citizen, George W. Bush has much to be held accountable for as President. During his “responsibility era” he and several other of the most powerful Americans accumulated a list of serious and far-reaching criminal offenses.

Despite his oath to “preserve, protect and defend” the U.S. Constitution, President Bush and his administration used the fear and anxiety generated by 9/11 to justify torture, kidnapping (extraordinary rendition), and illegal surveillance and wiretapping.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Now is the time to arrest and give a fair trial to every member of the Bush administration who broke
Edited on Tue Feb-10-09 01:32 PM by seemslikeadream
THE LAW




http://consortiumnews.com/2009/021009a.html

A Government of Laws, Not of Men

By Peter Dyer
February 10, 2009

Editor’s Note: Washington insiders are divided into two basic groups over what to do about the sordid history of the Bush administration: one side wants a “truth” commission but no jail time, and the other side says do nothing beyond thanking George W. Bush and his aides for a job well done.

But there is a grassroots movement out there that battled the Bush administration’s crimes as they were happening – often in the face of disdain from the insiders – and that group believes serious accountability must be achieved if the health of the American Republic is to be restored, a position shared by journalist Peter Dyer:

Now that the unprecedented lawlessness of the Bush administration is history, we have an equally unprecedented opportunity to reaffirm the foundation of American democracy: the rule of law.

Restoring the rule of law is as urgent as restoring the economy. Indeed, the problems are closely related and best addressed together.

...

Now a private citizen, George W. Bush has much to be held accountable for as President. During his “responsibility era” he and several other of the most powerful Americans accumulated a list of serious and far-reaching criminal offenses.

Despite his oath to “preserve, protect and defend” the U.S. Constitution, President Bush and his administration used the fear and anxiety generated by 9/11 to justify torture, kidnapping (extraordinary rendition), and illegal surveillance and wiretapping.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. And the reason Bush LIHOP was?
What was to be gained by the financial mess?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. This "bleed the beast" mentality serves people who are primarily at the top
If you wish, "top of the food chain"... some people feel that democracy cannot work, and only totalitarian rule can. The unwashed are not capable of being part of that democratization.

Have you read, "People's History of the United States?" by Howard Zinn?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'm interested in exactly how this "bleed the beast" mentality
Edited on Thu Jan-29-09 06:46 AM by LARED
works in the best interest for the "top of the food chain". Please elaborate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. After 688 pages of this book, a biblography that goes on for another 12 pages...
It can sort of be summed up like this-

Starting in 1492 when Indians met Columbus and "progress" was incorporated through the occupied Americas, there begins a compiled narrative and it is real written history. Starting here and ending by comparing the waxing and waning of labor movements, immigration and pitting like people who have the least against themselves, this weaves further to how we experienced with the 2000 election and the "War on Terrorism". This book IS history, but compiled from the stories of the least powerful people by a third party- some task for editing, and Howard Zinn does it. It's still a big best seller.

By reading this long history (patiently) you see a pattern emerging - to me, I easily saw the same thing others did reading this book, namely, those with means have and continue to exploit those who have little but the ability to serve. We all have relative values, to reap whatever our culture taught them. We still seem to explore naked, tawny villagers eager to learn, and in order for them that have more to continue that order
is to bleed the ones that have the least, lest a balance be established. To so many of them that have the most, there can be no equalization of society and disparity of income is what works. It works if the intent is to drain the social resources. That is what has worked politically time and time again to continue the widened gap between the classes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Is it possible to give a simple rational reason why
the current financial mess was LIHOP by those at the top?

Also what book are you referring to?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I don't think it's possible to give a simple reason for this financial mess-
...nor think any simple reason would also be a rational explanation for this financial cluster-fuck, regardless if it was a LIHOP or MIHOP. If you ask me, a person wanting that kind of an explanation only thinks in absolutes. Can't help you out there.

A couple of responses up thread I referred to the book, "A People's History of the United States" (1492-Present) by Howard Zinn
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Lets try this one more time
I asked:

And the reason Bush LIHOP was? (Referring to the OP's position that Bush let the financial mess happen on purpose) What was to be gained by the financial mess?

You responded with;

This "bleed the beast" mentality serves people who are primarily at the top If you wish, "top of the food chain"... some people feel that democracy cannot work, and only totalitarian rule can. The unwashed are not capable of being part of that democratization.

I asked:

I'm interested in exactly how this "bleed the beast" mentality works in the best interest for the "top of the food chain". Please elaborate.

Your response summarized:

There is an ongoing class struggle since America was occupied. Ok

I asked

Is it possible to give a simple rational reason why the current financial mess was LIHOP by those at the top?

See first question by me.

Your response was to tell me there is no simple answer to the current financial mess. I agree. The problem is I did not ask you to explain why we have a financial mess. I asked you to explain how those at the top have so much to gain by this mess they LIHOP.






Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yes, let's say this nicely once more...
I mean, why not be nice, instead of condescending, as I see you've become.

You asked for me to give a simple rational explanation to explain how those at the top have so much to gain by this mess they let happen on purpose. Perhaps adjectives are all you want (like "power"). I do not believe a that alone could represent what those at the top stand to "gain". Enlightening that thought further to draw a better conclusion is one reason I think we study history.

Perhaps if you read this book, drinking in all 688 pages of it, you'd gain more insight to that answer. I think you'll get a better answer seeing the historical struggles as experienced by people at the bottom to fathom why people at the top might think they have much to "gain".

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. If I understand you correctly
you have no clue as to how Bush, "those in power", etc, gain from letting the financial mess happen.

All I'm asking for is a simple example of how Bush, "those in power", etc, gain from allowing this to happen.


You believe "those at the top" saw what was coming, and did nothing (LIHOP) because this was to their advantage.

How is this to their advantage? If you want to say power as one reason that's fine, but please explain how the financial mess makes them more powerful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I don't think you do
...if your perception is that I would know WHO and specifically HOW "those" at the top saw what was coming.

A growing middle class who are well educated promote social democracy, not social Darwinism. And if you read this book, you might know this. Every time we get to the point in this country where "some liberal" has a vision for doing this, it has historically produced a backlash from the powerful interest on the way we financially lubricate industry. Andrew Carnegie and other robber barons did this. In those days there was a tremendous struggle to keep money at the top. The threat of an imbalance of "power" has scared some of the biggest, richest stakeholders of what treasures lay (insert world bank, or any global operations that feed off of permanent warfare) When that balance was offset before, the middle class disappeared with the working class and very rich taking its place.

You think an exclamatory statement as to why those who have power want more can be done in post.

And, you want simple examples. Do you want me to read the book to you? Do you want me to predict who the elite group was this time? These are certainly globalists, and they include the Bush family.

I don't think it's a matter of you misunderstanding me. I think it's more likely that you can't consider that this by itself is an explanation, when it doesn't have a contemporary group photo. You want a Reader's Digest version of specific faces of the last 8 years?

How a financial mess makes "them" more powerful is that money disappears from the hands of the middle class and goes to "them" that don't necessary have a stake in this country.

If you can't get the message, It's doubtfully your intellect, and more likely something else.

Just buy the book. I don't get royalties.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I have to disgree with this statement
How a financial mess makes "them" more powerful is that money disappears from the hands of the middle class and goes to "them" that don't necessary have a stake in this country.

How do you suppose when the market value of the Dow Jones falls 40 percent in a short period, money is transfered from the middle class to "them"?

How does over-leveraged banks and mortgage institutions (LIHOP by Congress to garner votes) move money from the middle class to "them" when they can no longer raise capital.

Setting aside Zinn's book, (which you seem to be fascinated with, but can't seem to make a concrete connection to how the financial mess supports LIHOP), why can't you actually answer the question?


Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. But LAaaaaaaaREDdddd
I read 688 pages! That's SIX HUNDRED EIGHTY EIGHT PAGES!!!!! You might have read 687 but **I** read ALL 688!

And that excuses me from answering a straightforward question like how a global financial meltdown benefits the rich and powerful!

Or something.

The global financial crisis is the opposite of what I would want if I were rich and powerful. It stirred up a lot of animosity towards the upper class and their grabby behavior. Obama won the election after mentioning tax increases... for once in history people paid attention to WHICH people would get taxed and stopped hallucinating that they would make a bazzilion dollars next year.

BTW do you really think you are going to get a strait answer out of MMM?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. You don't have to cut and paste threads, I can follow
...what we're talking about. Of course I'm fascinated with Zinn's book. It explains a lot about POWER. I believe you're versed on that subject, too. So, that book is a good start to understanding the struggle of the middle class and power elite, which helps you understand how these market forces have to do with that struggle.

The downdraft by mandarins is an intentional manipulation. It may not be the transference of wealth, but much more importantly, the transference of power, away from the existing shadow banking system. Or, by encouraging non-saving Americans to get into too much debt, then pull the debt fix away from them, weakens a lot of folk and makes them open to change. Whether that change is for better or worse is the real question.

Or... maybe somebody decided that the shadow banking system was too powerful and out of control, so it had to end. Allowing Lehman Bros. (October 2008) to fail was the final straw. Or maybe the house of cards finally destabilized to the point where it had to collapse. The Dow dropping 40% is nothing new; Many boomers (I'm entitled to say this, cause I'm one) obviously don't read history and don't consider risk what goes up can come down even faster.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. How is money transferred from the middle class to "them"?
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 07:43 AM by eomer
Seems to me it went like this:

  1. The middle class take real money (cash from their salaries) and invest it in markets
  2. "They" extract the real money, paying "themselves" huge bonuses
  3. "They" prop up the markets with smoke and mirrors to hide the fact that they've looted the real money out
  4. Eventually the markets crash because their market value is a fiction


The money transfer didn't happen at step (4); it happened earlier.

Thoughts?

Edit to clarify: I'm not saying this supports the LIHOP assertion, which I take to mean that "they" wanted the market to crash. I think, rather, that they didn't care if the market crashed. Bank robbers don't want the bank to fail, they just want the money. Whether it fails or not is of no consequence to them.

Edit 2: Continuing the discussion with myself... However, Friedman and his Chicago boys know (knew in Friedman's case) that their unfettered free markets system will cause chaotic crashes from time to time, which they see as a good thing. During a crash the middle class becomes thankful to just have a job, any job. The crash hammers the common citizens down and gives those with the power and money even more power. They don't get more money immediately, at the instant of the crash -- they get it over the decade that follows the crash when they have a subservient and desperate pool of labor. So, in that sense, yes it was LIHOP.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. I guess the only thing I'd ad is ...
the wonder of what's next. I might acknowledge (theory a la Warren Buffet?) that the "rich" aren't so rich after all, because as he said, "When the tide goes out, you see who's swimming naked." Lots of the "rich", as well as the not-so-rich, were just flying high on leverage (debt). We are experiencing the bursting of the debt bubble (de-leveraging?), and I'm pretty sure it's a long way from being finished. That epicenter- some of those University of Chicago boys wanted chaos, so they could take more advantage of it. This calls up another book I think I'll also read that I believe would enlighten someone like the poster above - Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine".

Books aside, my acknowledging those who LIHOP, we are left ONCE AGAIN in the middle of a repeating pattern through history with the subservient pool of labor who have little choice but to have little or no debt and a job. Meanwhile, I'm watching what may happen to some of the big boys swimming naked.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Don't let them get to ya MrMickeysMom
you how mean they can get :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Hiya SLaD
Now I ask you.... (with a smile). Do you honestly think posters like that are as interested in dialog as they are in imitating a Monty Python sketch (you know, "Yes you did, No you didn't!")

I can handle that stuff with ease, and I see YOU can, as well! :fistbump:

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
43. SLAD thinks that real debate is "mean"...
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 05:13 PM by SDuderstadt
even as she spams this OP (of the last 20 or so posts, 14 are from her). jesus.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Yes, and where's the posters who asked that their question be answered?
Because I think it has been answered .... in spades.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Since you do not like long posts I did that just for you
so you could keep up
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. thank you eomer
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
ryan_cats Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
47. The Sylphs would end up saving us
The Sylphs would end up saving us as well as cleaning up the contrails...
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
24. financial equivalence of 9/11
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
27. Phil Gramm UBS
google it
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Why not just provide a link? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. ok start with this one and there are plenty more I've just had my first cup
Fate of UBS hangs on tax evasion case
Posted by Joanne98 on Sun Feb-01-09 08:59 AM


The future of UBS, the giant Swiss bank, rests on the outcome of tense negotiations with US investigators as its long-running multi-billion-dollar tax evasion case concludes this month.

A series of hearings in Washington over the next four weeks will determine whether UBS faces criminal prosecutions and possibly even the loss of its US bank licence.

The bank is being investigated by US authorities for its alleged part in what is claimed to be a massive tax evasion scheme. The US has accused UBS of helping rich Americans hide billions of dollars. Last November, a senior member of the executive board of UBS was charged by US authorities with tax evasion. He has resigned from the board to defend himself. UBS has been co-operating with investigators and has made it plain that it is taking the issue seriously.

The case dates back to when a senior UBS banker signed a US court statement seven months ago detailing how he smuggled diamonds in toothpaste tubes, destroyed offshore bank records on behalf of clients and helped a Florida property tycoon evade taxes of $200m on offshore assets worth $7.26bn.

In a seven-page deposition, the senior manager claimed that he was encouraged to win clients at UBS-sponsored tennis tournaments and art events. UBS bankers, according to legal papers, are accused of helping wealthy Americans conceal ownership of their assets by creating "sham" offshore trusts. In November, UBS stopped using offshore trusts on behalf of its US customers.

The Observer has been told by well-placed sources that the authorities are determined to force UBS to hand over account details of its 17,000 US clients. The bank has indicated it is willing to release details of only 300 of them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/feb/01/ubs-banking
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Cool - thanks.
I'm still working on my first cup.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. That article doesn't talk much about Gramm.
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 10:52 AM by AZCat
This one from the NYT has more about him, but less about the UBS scams (it's not as recent - November '08):
Deregulator Looks Back, Unswayed

I think this quote is the most telling:
Mr. Gramm says that, given what has happened, there are modest regulatory changes he would favor, including requiring issuers of credit-default swaps to demonstrate that they have enough capital to back up their pledges. But his belief that government should intervene only minimally in markets is unshaken.

“They are saying there was 15 years of massive deregulation and that’s what caused the problem,” Mr. Gramm said of his critics. “I just don’t see any evidence of it.


Nor will he ever, an ideologue to the end.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Commodity Futures Modernization Act as part of a $384 billion Omnibus spending bill.
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 11:33 AM by seemslikeadream
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4096741

Posted by w8liftinglady on Fri Sep-26-08 12:20 PM

please rate it at the site and add a comment...thanks
http://www.thedailylight.com/articles/2008/09/26/opinion/doc48dd057349090511341223.txt
To the Editor,

As President Bush stared into the television camera and announced “Our entire economy is in danger!” I had to wonder ... what and or who is really behind this crisis? One individual stands behind several pieces of legislature that have affected our nation's economy.

John McCain’s self-admitted economic guru, Phil Gramm, is at the root of the foreclosure crisis that is driving this catastrophe. On Dec. 15, 2000, Gramm introduced the 262-page measure called the Commodity Futures Modernization Act as part of a $384 billion Omnibus spending bill.

The act, he declared, would ensure that neither the SEC nor the Commodity Futures Trading Commission got into the business of regulating newfangled financial products and would thus “protect financial institutions from overregulation” and “position our financial services industries to be world leaders into the new century.” Betting on the risk of any given transaction became more important “and more lucrative” than the transactions themselves. There was more betting on the riskiest sub-prime mortgages than there were actual mortgages. Gramm then blithely retired from the Senate to become an executive with UBS — surprise — a Swiss investment bank that benefited from this legislation.

The federal government has now-belatedly — decided to become involved in this legal gambling operation ... not to regulate it, but to bail it out. The beneficiaries will be the lenders, not those who were affected by their unscrupulous lending practices. There should be no blank check delivered to Henry Paulson or any of his associates who allowed this crisis to occur while their golf buddies got rich. The CEOs should be prosecuted and their assets used to resolve this crisis.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4088013
w8liftinglady (1000+ posts) Thu Sep-25-08 01:46 PM
Original message
please critique my ltte before I send Re: Gramm and the foreclosure crisis..
As President Bush stared into the television camera and announced "Our entire economy is in danger!",I had to wonder...what and/or who is really behind this crisis?One individual stands behind several pieces of legislature that have affected our nation's economy.
John McCain's self-admitted economic guru,Phil Gramm,is at the root of the foreclosure crisis that is driving this catastrophe.On December 15, 2000,Gramm introduced the 262-page measure called the Commodity Futures Modernization Act as part of a $384 billion Omnibus spending bill.
The act, he declared, would ensure that neither the sec nor the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (cftc) got into the business of regulating newfangled financial products called swaps—and would thus "protect financial institutions from overregulation" and "position our financial services industries to be world leaders into the new century."Betting on the risk of any given transaction became more important—and more lucrative—than the transactions themselves. There was more betting on the riskiest sub-prime mortgages than there were actual mortgages.Gramm then blithely retired the Senate to become an executive with UBS-surprise-a Swiss investment bank that benefited from this legislation.
The Federal Government has now-belatedly- decided to become involved in this legal gambling operation...not to regulate it,but to bail it out.The beneficiaries will be the lenders,not those who were affected by their unscrupulous lending practices.There should be NO blank check delivered to Henry Paulson or any of his associates who allowed this crisis to occur while their golf buddies got rich.The CEOs should be prosecuted,and their assets used to resolve this crisis.




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4029575

Commodity Futures Modernization, Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #34
46. I'm going to have to wait until tomorrow to read all these, but thanks anyway.
Browsing the internet from home on a dialup connection is a bit frustrating.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Know your BFEE: Phil Gramm, the Meyer Lansky of the War Party, Set-Up the Biggest Bank Heist Ever.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. TPM: Taxpayers to bail out Phil Gramm's foreign bank
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. Gramm is both vice chairman of UBS's US division and a lobbyist for UBS.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. UBS Is Enron
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3677438


3677438, UBS Is Enron
Posted by McCamy Taylor on Fri Jul-25-08 05:57 PM

Learn the name UBS . This company does not just act like Enron. It really is Enron. For one thing, as I will show, UBS Warburg bought the main money making operation of Enron, the Energy Trading Unit that Ken Lay used to price gouge California. And it bought Enron's senator, Phil "Nation of Whiners" Gramm the on again off again on again John McCain financial adviser----though he was an ex-senator by the time UBS acquired him. About the only difference is this round of scandals involves the banking/mortgage industry rather than energy price fixing. All the other ingredients are here. Investors have been defrauded. Insiders have dumped their own securities as prices have fallen. And Republican lawmakers in the administration are engaged in a cover up.

Today, UBS is back in the headlines, because NY state has filed a $37 billion lawsuit on behalf of defrauded investors. This, despite the Bush administration’s vendetta against Eliot Spitzer which was probably designed to discourage states from seeking to punish bank fraud where the feds refused to do so.

I. With So Many Enrons Just Waiting to Happen, Former Senator Phil Gramm Would Not Be Out of Work Long

In 2002, just months after leaving the U.S. Senate in disgrace over the roles which he and his wife played in helping Enron construct its house of cards ( for details and links see my recent journal McCain Economic Adviser Phil "Nation of Whiners" Gramm and Wife Wendy Brought Us Enron

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/McCamy%20Taylor/258 )

Phil Gramm was hired by USB Warburg.

http://www.ubs.com/1/e/media_overview/media_americas/search1/search10?newsId=58925


October 7, 2002
Senator Phil Gramm to join UBS Warburg
UBS Warburg today announced that Texas Senator Phil Gramm will join the firm as vice chairman. In this role, he will advise clients on corporate finance issues and strategy. Senator Gramm plans to join the firm at the end of his term. In his new role, he will work closely with Vice Chairmen Lord Brittan and Ken Costa, who are based in London.

Senator Gramm is retiring after serving 24 years in Congress, including the last 18 years as Senator from Texas.

„Senator Gramm’s experience gained from more than 35 years in academia and government make him uniquely suited to assist our clients to meet the challenges presented by today’s business environment,” said John P. Costas, chairman and chief executive officer of UBS Warburg.

„I am delighted to enter the next phase of my career as an investment banker at UBS Warburg,” said Senator Gramm. „Having spent my professional life working on finance related issues, I look forward to bringing that experience and knowledge to bear on behalf of UBS Warburg clients worldwide.”


II. UBS Is Enron

This employment opportunity did not come out of nowhere. USB Warburg had already bought Enron's Energy Trading Unit in early 2002, making USB the new Enron---literally---since energy trading was Enron's main source of income.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01E2D61F39F931A25752C0A9649C8B63


The Enron Corporation announced yesterday that UBS Warburg had won the bidding for its energy-trading business, which was the crown jewel of Enron and was responsible for about 90 percent of its revenue.

snip

''UBS Warburg is excited by the prospect of re-establishing this technology-based trading business,'' John P. Costas, chief executive of UBS Warburg, said in a statement. ''It will be a valuable extension of our worldwide trading activities.''


The New York Times makes it sound like happy days are here again, but read this blog entry from a different source.

http://www.johnmugarian.com/2006/05/ubs_enron_and_former_senator_p.html


While former US Senator Phil Gramm's wife, Wendy Gramm was a member of Enron's audit committee, and also serving on the company's of the Board of Directors, UBS was a consultant for the State of California in 2002 to help fix the State's energy crisis.

The Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights (FTCR) wanted Governor Gray Davis to fire UBS, saying the company had a conflict of interest since they represented both the State of California and Enron.- Read Article

Senator Gramm defended Enron, and basically told California that the state's energy problems were of their own making.

Shortly after, Enron went bankrupt, and Gramm resigned taking a job with UBS Warburg as a Vice President.

After Enron went bankrupt, UBS Warburg bought Enron's energy trading operations. UBS PaineWebber which is a subsidiary of UBS Warburg, was in charge of Enron's employee stock option program.

In Houston, a former UBS PaineWebber broker, Chung Wu was fired after he advised his clients to sell their Enron stock when it was trading around $36.- Read Article


And here is the link about the broker that UBS fired in August 2001 at the urging of Enron, because he advised employees of Enron who owned stock in their company to sell when shares were at $36. You read that correctly. UBS helped Enron to trick Enron employees into holding onto worthless shares in the company, in order to inflate the company's value, even as Enron executives and friends within the Bush administration were dumping their stock.


Enron (news/quote) executives pressed UBS PaineWebber to take action against a broker who advised some Enron employees to sell their shares in August and was fired by the brokerage firm within hours of the complaint, according to e-mail messages released today by Congressional investigators.

The broker, Chung Wu, of PaineWebber's Houston office, sent a message to clients early on Aug. 21 warning that Enron's "financial situation is deteriorating" and that they should "take some money off the table."

That afternoon, an Enron executive in charge of its stock option program sent a stern message to PaineWebber executives, including the Houston branch office manager. "Please handle this situation," the newly released message stated. "This is extremely disturbing to me."

PaineWebber fired Mr. Wu less than three hours later.


http://bodurtha.georgetown.edu/enron/The%20Man%20Who%20Paid%20the%20Price%20for%20Sizing%20Up%20Enron.htm

And here is an excellent document that has much, much more on the many ties between UBS-PaineWebber and Enron, including the many Enron assets and executives which EBS obtained, the investigations of UBS related to the Enron scandal and its eventual settlement with the government.

http://www.lawyershop.com/practice-areas/criminal-law/white-collar-crimes/securities-fraud/lawsuits/ubs-warbug /


UBS Warburg purchased Enron’s energy trading unit in January of 2002, after the company filed for bankruptcy. The operations were renamed UBS Warburg Energy. In addition to obtaining the business, UBS Warburg acquired two Enron skyscrapers and took aboard 650 former Enron employees, including executives John Lavorato and Louise Kitchen, who had taken the company’s largest bonuses after the bankruptcy ($5 million and $2 million), and Greg Whalley, Enron’s former president.

snip

UBS Warburg faced two additional allegations between the time it fired Wu and settled with federal regulating agencies. In August of 2002, a class action lawsuit was filed against UBS Warburg for its failure to drop its “strong buy” rating of Enron until four days before it filed for bankruptcy. The complaint alleged that UBS Warburg violated Sections 10(b)(5), 11, and 12 the Securities Exchange Act.


For all practical purposes, UBS was and is Enron.

Here is the settlement.


On December 20, 2002 the SEC released information on the $1.4 billion settlement that had been reached between numerous regulating agencies (Securities Exchange Comission , New York Attorney General, National Association of Securities Dealers , North American Securities Administrators Association , and New York Stock Exchange ), and ten prominent investment banking firms that had been under investigation. The settlement was finalized on April 28, 2003.The terms of the settlement focused on each firm’s need to:

* Keep the research and ratings of analysts separate from the influence of investment banking
* Cease the practice of “spinning” IPOs
* Contract research from at least three independent firms
* Make its ratings and recommendations publicly available
* Pay a monetary settlement

As part of the settlement, UBS Warburg agreed to pay $25 million as a penalty, $25 in “disgorgement,” $25 million to fund independent research, and $5 million for future investor education.

UBS Warburg continues to face allegations regarding its analyst advice and actions in connection with Enron.


Somehow, I do not think that this hand slap taught UBS anything except that corporate fraud can be very, very profitable.

III. UBS Warburg Clients Should Have Paid Attention to What Happened to Enron Investors

Today, New York state Attorney General Andrew Cuomo announced a massive lawsuit against the Swiss giant on behalf of 50,000 investors whom he claims have been swindled out of $20 billion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/24/AR2008072403740.html?hpid=sec-business


The suit alleges that UBS defrauded more than 50,000 customers out of more than $20 billion by knowingly misrepresenting the investments, which are known as auction-rate securities, while several senior bank executives were selling off more than $21 million of their personal holdings in these bonds.

"Not only is UBS guilty of committing a flagrant breach of trust between the bank and its customers, its top executives jumped ship as soon as the securities market started to collapse, leaving thousands of customers holding the bag," Cuomo said in a statement.


Apparently the executives at UBS left an email trail a mile wide, when they began to dump their ARSs, while failing to notify their investors that their own ARSs were going down the toilet. Now, where did that happen before? Ah, that's right! At Enron!

For people like me whose academic specialty is not business, here is a wiki link about Auction Rate Securities. Basically, these were an investment option for the rich and for corporations (minimum buy in $25,000) that promised greater return on investment) which were sold to investors as being risk free because the bank promised that it would step in to guarantee a certain minimum price at auction if no one else wanted to bid on these pieces of paper. Well, surprise, surprise, in February of this year, USB, Citigroup, Morgan Stanley and Merrill Lynch decided that they would not hold up their part of the bargain, no one bid on the ARSs, 80% of them had no bidders, the market failed, values of the ARSs fell----and USB still will not buy up its ARS at the new lower prices, leaving its very rich and powerful investors steaming mad. No wonder so many state attorney generals are taking action where the federal government refuses to do anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auction_rate_security

As if this is not bad enough, the executives of the company have been caught in an insider trading scandal. No, not a Martha Stewart pretend insider trading scandal. This is the real thing. From the WaPo link above.


In one instance, the suit says, UBS's chief risk officer sent an e-mail to the firm's chief executive, who copied another executive, outlining "potential trouble" with the securities, dangers posed by the company's growing inventory of them and the potential damage to the firm's reputation if it didn't fulfill its obligations to investors.

According to the complaint, that second executive, dubbed "Executive A," then forwarded the e-mail to two other senior managers and, just 10 minutes later, wrote another e-mail to his personal financial adviser, stating, "I want to get out of arcs. Let's talk on Monday."

Another UBS executive acted similarly, unloading more than $6 million of his securities after learning of their problems, as did other company officials, according to the complaint. In all, the suit alleges that UBS officials sold more than $21 million in auction-rate securities from November 2007 to Feb. 12.


The suit does not name the executives. We all want to know if Phil Gramm's name is in that lawsuit. And also, did his wife have any of those ARSs and did she sell any of them? And what about the McCains?

IV. How Much of the Blame Rests on Gramm’s Shoulders and How Much Will Stick to Him and McCain?

Even before this lawsuit, people were putting two and two together and coming up with Enron Redux. Here are some of the reviews of UBS’s spectacular fall from grace.

This article from June claims that Phil Gramm’s job was to lobby Congress to keep UBS afloat----which was what Ken Lay paid him to do for Enron when he was a Senator. And it is a PR nightmare for Gramm and McCain because it ties the UBS scandal to Enron and to the GOP presidential candidate and his financial adviser.

http://www.americablog.com/2008/06/phil-gramms-ubs-has-new-problems.html


After showing initially profitable results, the banking world has since reminded some of why we had particular banking laws in place since the Great Depression. Gramm ignored history and thought he knew better. As the credit crisis grew Gramm, a Washington insider, was tasked with lobbying Congress to ease the pain of the problem he helped create.

The latest scandal to involve the McCain campaign co-chair lobbyist are investigations into UBS by the SEC as well as regulators from Massachusetts and New Hampshire. Is there a "20 strikes and you're out" policy in the McCain team? If you thought ties to Halliburton and Big Oil were bad with Bush, that's nothing compared to Wall Street problems and McCain.

UBS Financial Services Inc. knew as early as December that a segment of the municipal bond business was in trouble, but the Wall Street firm kept selling the investments to some clients without warning them of the risk, according to documents reviewed by the Globe.


In July, the story was still gaining momentum. When investors have lost billions, they tend to make their voices heard.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/145011/page/2


Critics have charged that Gramm's action as a senator helped lay the groundwork for some of the problems in the housing and oil markets. But it's hard to pin any of the UBS debacles on the former Texas senator. At UBS, Gramm held the post of vice chairman, a position Michelle Leder dubbed in Slate "the greatest job in business" for its combination of high status and low work rate. Gramm was a lobbyist and adviser, not an operating executive. And he had nothing to do with the forces that impelled banks and banking executives into foolish behavior in recent years; cheap money, greed and a bubble mentality are far bigger than Gramm. But UBS's continuing travails should lead us to wonder how effective Gramm is as an elder statesman. As an adviser, an economist, an expert in the ways of Washington and in the American financial system, part of Gramm's job surely was to advise the bank how to stay out of investment and regulatory trouble. Oops!


And then there is this piece which basically lays out the charges for a criminal indictment of UBS---and its agent Phil Gramm

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/07/10/ubs-exec-and-mccain-advisor-phil-gramm-u-s-is-nation-of-whine /


Gramm's UBS is a leader on three important fronts in the effort to destroy the U.S. economy: the $1.3 trillion subprime mortgage catastrophe, the $330 billion Auction Rate Securities (ARS) freeze, and a tax evasion scheme of unknown magnitude.
snip
• Subprime. Politico.com reports that Gramm lobbied Congress, the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department about banking and mortgage issues in 2005 and 2006 and received a portion of $750,000 in lobbying fees for his efforts that set the stage for the subprime mortgage catastrophe which cost UBS $32 billion in subprime losses alone.
• ARS.Slate.com reports that Massachusetts accused UBS of selling retail brokerage customers ARSs -- about which I posted -- that made money for UBS's investment banking unit but caused the retail customers to suffer significant losses.
• Tax evasion. Slate.com also reports that UBS's asset management business is the subject of an ongoing federal investigation, in which Bradley Birkenfeld, an American UBS private banker who was arrested on tax evasion charges, has plead guilty and is cooperating with the government. Birkenfeld helped a client bring diamonds into the U.S. by shoving them in a tube of toothpaste.


V. I Meant It When I Wrote That UBS Is Enron (Minus Ken Lay)

UBS enabled Enron to pass itself off as a solvent company to investors for several months after it was clear that it was on the verge of bankruptcy. This cost many their life's savings. UBS paid nothing for its crimes. UBS them absorbed Enron---and its senator, Phil Gramm---and began to exploit the Enron loophole that had allowed Enron to make so much paper profit. This produced the exact same results---eventual financial loss for the company and customers, executives who avoided loss through insider trading and misrepresentation to their clients. All of this was made possible by Phil Gramm, who successfully lobbied to get even more privileges for business to allow them to steal even more from investors---even though everyone knew his history and the history of his company when it came to investor fraud.

UBS is Enron. Phil Gramm is a serial enabler of corporate fraud on a massive scale who can not be allowed to direct economic policy in this country. Because if he could get Congress to do what it did for UBS when he was a private lobbyist, imagine what he could accomplish if he had a job in someone's cabinet, making administrative decisions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. Phil Gramm and Fascism F*A*S*C*I*S*M
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3700844

3700844, Phil Gramm and Fascism
Posted by McCamy Taylor on Wed Jul-30-08 01:49 AM

I. Why Hasn't Typhoid Phil Worn Out His Welcome With The Republican Party After Engineering the Two Biggest Business Meltdowns of the Century?

Those who have followed the many Phil Gramm scandals closely have probably asked themselves Why the hell would the U.S. business community want this man anywhere near a seat of power in this country? . Despite his PhD and his academic history, every business endeavor which he touches turns to liquid shit----on a colossal scale. Enron’s bankruptcy rocked the business world. UBS, his current company, just wrote off mortgage losses as big as all of last year’s profits and is being sued for $20 billion to boot.

One explanation is that a corporation’s bankruptcy can be an executive’s money making opportunity----if he dumps his stock in time (and avoids being caught by the SEC).

However, when you are rich as sin like the David Rockefellers and Mellon-Scaifes who run this country, generating revenue is no longer your primary focus. The Russian Revolution and the Great War in Europe and the changing borders after WWII taught the uber-rich that the largest fortunes are vulnerable to political change. If you want to hang onto your money, you can’t just own a lot of it. You have to acquire power , too. You need to control the masses, or eventually they will decide that no one person deserves to have so much money sitting in a vault gathering cobwebs while so many others are starving.

The people with the real power are those who buy politicians—presidents---and media empires for their propaganda potential and those who start political movements that can benefit their business interests. Fascism, especially Mussolini style corporate-state fascism appeals to this kind of schemer.


The corporate State considers that private enterprise in the sphere of production is the most effective and usefu instrument in the interest of the nation. In view of the fact that private organisation of production is a function of national concern, the organiser of the enterprise is responsible to the State for the direction given to production.
State intervention in economic production arises only when private initiative is lacking or insufficient, or when the political interests of the State are involved. This intervention may take the form of control, assistance or direct management. (pp. 135-136)

Benito Mussolini, 1935, Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions, Rome: 'Ardita' Publishers.


We already have something similar to this under the Bush administration. The oil industry objects to other nations having nationalized oil which U.S. firms are not allowed to exploit? Private enterprise is “insufficient” to persuade these countries to give their oil away the way it used to give it away to Standard Oil? No problem. Bush will invade Iraq for its oil, try to invade Iran for its oil, and attempt a military coup in Venezuela for its oil. Oh, and it will interfere in the presidential election in Mexico for its oil.

II. "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Matthew 19:24) Means Exactly What Its Says

The people who crave power in order to protect their fortunes do not view the world the way that you or I do. For example, when they read the newspaper, stories like the one below do not seem tragic. When they read about a Church shooting, they think to themselves Hmmm. We are making progress.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jOAQKzY-aOBqDspFkEAV_ZO65vZAD92740DO4


An out-of-work truck driver accused of opening fire at a Unitarian church, killing two people, left behind a note suggesting that he targeted the congregation out of hatred for its liberal policies, including its acceptance of gays, authorities said Monday.

Snip

Adkisson, a 58-year-old truck driver on the verge of losing his food stamps, had 76 rounds with him when he entered the church and pulled a shotgun from a guitar case during a children's performance of the musical "Annie."

Snip

"It appears that what brought him to this horrible event was his lack of being able to obtain a job, his frustration over that, and his stated hatred for the liberal movement," Police Chief Sterling Owen said.

Adkisson was a loner who hates "blacks, gays and anyone different from him," longtime acquaintance Carol Smallwood of Alice, Texas, told the newspaper.


After the general public outrage has died down, the right wing will embrace this story. The shooter will become a hero of American fascists. Here was a White man, they will say, who could not get a fair shake in this country, because all the jobs were going to minorities. They will blame Latino immigrants. They will blame women who do not support their husbands. They will call for a return to American values.

They will blame everyone except the political and business leaders who have lead us into recession and now have us poised on the verge of a Second Great Depression. People like Phil Gramm. Because to guys like Adkisson, Phil Gramm and John McCain are supposed to be the ones who will get us out of the mess. People who have been suckered by the right wing in blaming other working class Americans for their poverty, desperately want someone they can count upon to lead them back to the safety of the middle class.

III. The Great Depression Was a Great Opportunity If You Were a Fascist Dictator

Those who have read Studs Turkel’s Hard Times know that the uber-rich did not suffer during the first Great Depression. Not the way that the rest of us did. They hardly seemed to notice the desperation of the men and women struggling to survive. For them, FDR was an annoyance and his policies were a nuisance. The reaction of countries across the Atlantic was more to their liking. They admired Mussolini and Hitler. They craved their own fascist coup.

However, America was and is the home to the independent minded of the world, the ones who long for personal liberty more than the comforts of home. People who are not willing to bow and scrape for their daily bread have been coming to this shore for centuries. Noam Chomsky describes it eloquently here:

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people2/Chomsky/chomsky-con2.html


There was a tradition of what was called Republicanism in the United States. We're free people, you know, the first free people in the world. This was destroying and undermining that freedom. This was the core of the labor movement all over, and included in it was the assumption, just taken for granted, that "those who work in the mills should own them." In fact, one of the their main slogans, I'll just quote it, was they condemned what they called the "new spirit of the age: gain wealth, forgetting all but self." That new spirit, that you should only be interested in gaining wealth and forgetting about your relations to other people, they regarded it as a violation of fundamental human nature, and a degrading idea.

That was a strong, rich American culture, which was crushed by violence. The United States has a very violent labor history, much more so than Europe. It was wiped out over a long period, with extreme violence. By the time it picked up again in the 1930s, that's when I personally came into the tail end of it. After the Second World War it was crushed. By now, it's forgotten. But it's very real. I don't really think it's forgotten, I think it's just below the surface in people's consciousness.

Snip

Things like this, they're forgotten in the intellectual culture, but my feeling is they're probably alive in the popular culture, in people's sentiments and attitudes and understanding and so on. I know when I talk to, say, working-class audiences today, and I talk about these ideas, they seem very natural to them. I mean, it's true, nobody talks about them, but when you bring it up, the idea that you have to rent yourself to somebody and follow their orders, and that they own and you work there, and you built it but you don't own it, that's a highly unnatural notion. You don't have to study any complicated theories to see that this is an attack on human dignity.

The core of the anarchist tradition, as I understand it, is that power is always illegitimate, unless it proves itself to be legitimate. So the burden of proof is always on those who claim that some authoritarian hierarchic relation is legitimate. If they can't prove it, then it should be dismantled.


Bush and Cheney used 9/11 as an excuse to give themselves legitimacy for a few years, by claiming that we were under attack and that we had to surrender our Constitutional rights in order to be safe from physical harm. However, that was a short lived crisis. The problem with 9/11 was the external nature of the threat. It could be contained, excluded and neutralized relatively easily. It did not affect the day to day lives of most Americans. When something worse happened----Katrina---9/11 ceased to matter. Bush failed to respond to Katrina (a disaster that could happen to any American community), and so he proved himself to be illegitimate. His ratings have been in the toilet ever since.

Phil Gramm and the right wingers who are backing him and John McCain---including people like Grover Norquist, who is on record as wanting to “bankrupt” America---want to attack the nation again. They need another 9/11, only this time it has to be bigger, splashier, more lasting. It has to hit every single American and make them deathly afraid, not just for themselves but for their children and grandchildren.

They are trying to do that by attacking the economy of the nation. They know that if we are driven into an economic corner, in which people fear for their livelihood, the president in power at that moment can act like Mussolini. He can use the crisis to forge a new kind of legitimacy ----one based upon American values , which is code for a very un-American fascism.


IV. What is Fascism? (Besides a Word that Annoys the Hell Out of Fascists)

In his book Anatomy of Fascism Robert O. Paxton gives this definition:


Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.


Also, from Paxton, the defining characteristics of fascism:


1.“At bottom is a passionate nationalism”
2.“a sense ofoverwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions”
3.“the belief that one's group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external”
4.dread of the group's under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict, and alien influences”
5.“the need for closer integration of a purer community, by consent if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary”

As you can see, there are two main ingredients necessary for a successful fascist coup, a crisis and an enemy . Now, what crisis in the 20th century lead to the heyday of European and American fascism? The Great Depression. When people are homeless, starving, out of work, it is easy to mobilize them to join a political movement that claims it has the answers.

V. If You Believe that a Second Great Depression is Just the Crisis You Need to Convince Americans to Surrender Their Liberties to a Corporate Sponsored State, How Would You Engineer One?

http://losangeles.injuryboard.com/miscellaneous/the-subprime-mess-and-phil-gramm-an-experiment-in-deregulation.aspx?googleid=242468


In 1933, a few years following the stock market crash, Congress passes the Glass-Steagall Act, in hopes that regulating banks will help prevent market instability, particularly amongst Wall Street banks. The purpose of the act is to separate commercial banks that focus on consumers from investment banks, which deal with speculative trading and mergers.
The Glass-Steagall Act provided the proper oversight and entity separation that would prohibit banks and other financial companies from merging into giant trusts (conflict of interests) -- giant trusts or corporations being more powerful, naturally, and having the seemingly limitless capital to lobby their corporate interests, however, with a very myopic scope (particularly when it comes to factoring in potential losses -- most banks, as seen in contemporary times, chose not to anticipate losses in the mortgage market; they presumed home prices would continue to appreciate).
In 1999, former Senator Phil Gramm (who is, incidentally, Senator John McCain's economic adviser and cochairs his presidential campaign) set out to completely gut the Glass-Steagall Act, and did so successfully, replacing most of its components with the new Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act: allowing commercial banks, investment banks, and insurers to merge (which would have violated antitrust laws under Glass-Steagall). Sen. Gramm was the driving force behind the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, as he had received over $4.6 million from the FIRE sector (Finance, Insurance and Real Estate donations) over the previous decade, and once the Act passed, an influx of "megamergers" took place among banks and insurance and securities companies, as if they had been eagerly awaiting the passage of Gramm's Act. Everything in between Glass-Steagall and Gramm-Leach-Bliley (i.e. Savings and Loan crisis/bust) was, in large part, the incubation period for what would take place over the nine years that would follow the passage of Gramm's Act: an experiment in deregulation.


Gramm’s deregulation of the banking industry was a formula was disaster, as anyone with a PhD in economics and experience teaching the subject at a college like Texas A&M would know. Funny, that describes Gramm’s resume. He should have known better. Maybe he did know better. Maybe he knew exactly what he was doing. From an article by Patricia Kilday Hart:

http://www.texasobserver.org/article.php?aid=2767


“The work of this Congress will be seen as a watershed where we turned away from an outmoded Depression-era approach to financial regulation and adopted a framework that will position our financial services industry to be world leaders into the new century,” Gramm said.

Watershed indeed. With the U.S. economy now battered by a tsunami of mortgage foreclosures, the $30-billion Bear Stearns Companies bailout and spiking food and energy prices, many congressional leaders and Wall Street analysts are questioning the wisdom of the radical deregulation launched by Gramm’s legislative package. Financial wizard Warren Buffett has labeled the risky new investment instruments Gramm unleashed “financial weapons of mass destruction.” They have fed the subprime mortgage crisis like an accelerant. While his distracted peers probably finalized their Christmas gift lists, Gramm created what Wall Street analysts now refer to as the “shadow banking system,” an industry that operates outside any government oversight, but, as witnessed by the Bear Stearns debacle, requiring rescue by taxpayers to avert a national economic catastrophe.


Just how bad is the banking crisis? According to the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/business/14bank.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


As home prices continue to decline and loan defaults mount, federal regulators are bracing for dozens of American banks to fail over the next year.

Snip

But the troubles are growing so rapidly at some small and midsize banks that as many as 150 out of the 7,500 banks nationwide could fail over the next 12 to 18 months, analysts say. Other lenders are likely to shut branches or seek mergers.

“Everybody is drawing up lists, trying to figure out who the next bank is, No. 1, and No. 2, how many of them are there,” said Richard X. Bove, the banking analyst with Ladenburg Thalmann, who released a list of troubled banks over the weekend. “And No. 3, from the standpoint of Washington, how badly is it going to affect the economy?”


http://www.washtimes.com/news/2008/jul/09/mccain-adviser-addresses-mental-recession /

Gramm’s response to the banking industry’s misconduct and greed would make a totalitarian leader proud. He blames the victims, calling America a “nation of whiners”, denouncing the press for reporting on negative business news which puts the American economy in a bad light. In the world according to Phil Gramm, an attack upon American business is an attack upon America---welcome to the corporate fascist state. By denouncing individual complaints as “whining”, he expresses disdain for individual liberties and rights in the same way that a more typical political fascist might tell a dissident “Too bad that your mail is being opened by the secret police. That is the price you have to pay so that we can fight terrorism.” Except, in Gramm’s corporate fascist state loss of your home is the price you have to pay so that your bank can remain solvent, and your bank’s solvency is supposed to be tied to national pride and security---even if the bank in question is United Bank of Switzerland and is based in another country.

Gramm’s reaction is just a symptom of a much larger problem, one that we saw when the the U.S. Congress passed its truly draconian credit card debt legislation that was like something out of Charles Dickens. Better to have millions of Americans working the rest of their lives to pay off hospital bills than to force a huge bank to write off a loss. In the 21st century, the life expectancy and education and average income of individuals no longer matter as indicators of the health of this country. Only the strength of our Fortune 500 companies matters when judging our success.

That is what it means to be a corporate fascist state.

VI. Pin the Tail On the Scapegoat

I mentioned that it takes two things to create a fascist coup, a crisis and a scapegoat. If the crisis to be an economic one, then the scapegoat will be our economically and politically most vulnerable workers, a group whom the right wing has been working to vilify for at least six years, Latino immigrants.

http://washingtonindependent.com/view/race-and-the-housing


Even when their credit scores were similar, blacks and Latinos were far more likely to get subprime loans than white borrowers during the housing boom, report after report has shown. In majority black and Latino communities, nearly half of all mortgages made in 2006 were high-cost subprime loans, according to research by the Local Initiatives Support Corp.


For people who know how fascism works, it will come as no surprise that Michelle Malkin is the point man in the right wing effort to blame Latino immigrants for the mortgage banking crisis.

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/22/open-borders-wachovia-bank-posts-89-billion-loss /
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/06/13/wachovia-banking-on-open-borders /


Well now. It looks like banking on illegal immigration isn’t paying off for Wachovia. The bank’s massive losses and job cuts are the big news rocking the financial sector today


And then there is this:
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/05/12/open-borders-and-the-mortgage-mess /

It’s the elephant in the room: How much has illegal immigration contributed to the current mortgage mess?
No one in Washington wants to talk about it–even as lawmakers pushed to include a now-dead $25 million earmark for the open-borders activists of La Raza/The Race and are preparing to hand over $100 million to the group and other left-wing organizations as part of the mortgage counseling racket.

Snip

Congress needs to act. We need a full congressional investigation into determining just how rampant the illegal immigration problem is in regards to these mortgage defaults. Much like the savings-and-loan scandals of the 80’s we need to know which banks are catering to illegal immigrants in violation of U.S. law and making these extremely high risk loans putting the economic prosperity of this country in great peril.


If you want something with more substance, this article gives maps

http://undocumentedblogger.blogspot.com/2007/08/illegal-immigrants-face-of-subprime.html


"Foreclosure filings rose 9 percent from June to July and surged 93 percent over the same period last year." <4> "Consumer comfort plummeted this week amid turbulence in the stock market and a seemingly infectious crisis in the home mortgage market." <5>

Despite the rising economic crisis, the mainstream media has still not begun to investigate the apparent link between illegal immigration and the mortgage crisis. Instead they hold out hopes that the Federal Reserve will bail us out by cutting interest rates.


Give them a chance. Once the members of the mainstream media see that their corporate masters want them to blame Latino immigrants for our banking woes---and our recession---I am sure that the press will oblige.

In a previous journal called When Does It Become Fascism?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2371537

I make the case that Latino immigrants are being set up to become the scapegoats for the American right wing’s fascist coup, much in the same way that the Jews were made scapegoats by the Nazis.

The Nazis were able to justify their atrocities by claiming that Jewish people were not human. When the right wing claims that it is ok to beat, steal from, shoot or kill a Latino immigrant because they are not citizens, that is just a variation of the German argument. The right wing uses the same language to describe Latinos that the Nazis used to describe Jewish people--they are rapists, they carry disease, they are thieves, they have subhuman intelligence. And now, they are blaming them not just for the loss of jobs but for the failure of banks---as if the mere presence of immigrants somehow forced the lenders to compromise their ethics. This goes back to Paxton's point about an "alien" threat to the "pure" community which is prized above all. In the fairy tale according to Michelle Malkin and the other purveyors of fascism, America will be alright again once it embraces those cleansing American Values ---that you can buy at Wal-Mart (though they were probably manufactured in China).
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. Phil Gramm's UBS Bank BUSTED in $18B Major International Tax Scandal
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3648922


3648922, Phil Gramm's UBS Bank BUSTED in $18B Major International Tax Scandal --- Where's our MSM???
Posted by elehhhhna on Sun Jul-20-08 11:59 AM

$18B in Hiding

By Alexis Glick
Hold onto your hats this is going to be UGLY. Did you hear about the federal investigation into the private banking practices at UBS? Apparently, the Senate subcommittee on investigations released a report yesterday saying that UBS’s offshore accounting practices helped American citizens hide $18 billion from the IRS. As many as 19,000 accounts according to the IRS. Roni Deutch, a tax attorney and frequent guest on Money for Breakfast told me this morning that it could be A LOT more.

It sounds like a spy novel but it’s true according to the IRS and others investigating the practice of illegally hiding funds in offshore accounts. This involves all kinds of misdeeds and heads will role not only at UBS but at other institutions who did the same thing. As Roni rightly points out, the individual taxpayers, American citizens, who hid their money with this bank will also be in hot water and will likely face jail time or fines. It’s an unbelievable story...

http://glickreport.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2008/07/18/18b-in-hiding /

More details on Leichtenstein tax haven scandal
Posted: July 20, 2008, 8:59 AM by DrewHasselback
Banks
There's been a few interesting developments in the on-going Liechtenstein bank scandal.

A man identified only as "Elmar S" has become the first German citizen to be convicted of using secret bank accounts in Liechtenstein to evade taxes. Elmar S was given a two-year suspended sentence and order to give 7.5-million euros to charities and the state. The man admitted to evading 8-million euros in taxes, and was given a relatively light sentence because he cooperated with authorities.

Another big development came when U.S. Senate investigators released a 114-page document that among other things shows how Liechtenstein is used as a tax haven. The document was released prior to a hearing on Thursday at which UBS, Switzerland's largest bank, announced it would no longer help U.S. investors hide funds in secret accounts offshore.


The Liechtenstein tax scandal erupted earlier this year. Heinrich Kieber, a former employee with LGT Group, a bank owned by Liechtenstein's royal family, snuck off with computer records showing how individuals from all over the world — including some from Canada — use the sleepy alpine enclave as a place to hide money from tax agencies.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/legalpost/archive/2008/07/20/more-details-on-leichtenstein-tax-haven-scandal.aspx
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. Phil Gramm = UBS = Heinrich Kieber = Super Rich Tax Cheats Outed by Bank Clerk

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3625780




3625780, Phil Gramm = UBS = Heinrich Kieber = Super Rich Tax Cheats Outed by Bank Clerk
Posted by seemslikeadream on Tue Jul-15-08 09:48 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5378080&page=1

Day of Reckoning? Super Rich Tax Cheats Outed by Bank Clerk
Technician in Liechtenstein Turns Over Names of Americans With Secret Bank Accounts
By BRIAN ROSS and RHONDA SCHWARTZ
July 15, 2008


Hundreds of super-rich American tax cheats have, in effect, turned themselves in to the IRS after a bank computer technician in the tiny European country of Liechtenstein came forward with the names of US citizens who had set up secret accounts there, according to Washington lawyers investigating the scheme.


Heinrich Kieber, a bank computer technician in Liechtenstein came forward with the names of US citizens who had set up secret accounts there, according to Washington lawyers investigating the scheme. He has been branded a thief by the government of Liechtenstein for violating the country's bank secrecy laws.
(hand out)
The bank clerk, Heinrich Kieber, has been branded a thief by the government of Liechtenstein for violating the country's bank secrecy laws.


He is now in hiding but scheduled to testify to the Senate's Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations Thursday via a video statement from a secret location, according to Congressional investigators.


Aides for committee chairman Carl Levin (D-MI) are scheduled to provide reporters with a background briefing later this morning in Washington on the committee's investigation of tax haven banks in Liechtenstein and Switzerland.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. ENRON and the Gramms
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
29. credit freeze crisis began as vastly overstated fear mongering very similar to the run up to invasio
Three senior economists who work for the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis claim that the current credit freeze crisis began as vastly overstated fear mongering very similar to the run up to the invasion of Iraq. Surely this is another case of criminality by the Bush-Cheney gang.

Link: http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/39461
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
48. I am having a hard time buying that...
Over-reaction is one thing but the link claims banks didn't have problems lending to each other. The crisis was not 100% in peoples heads. Despite the bailout not being passed at first many steps were taken to get that lending to happen. The fed was negotiating the lending which they do not normally do. Corporate paper was a mess.

Any your statement "Surely this is another case of criminality by the Bush-Cheney gang." shows you have already made up your mind about who was responsible without any evidence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. not MY statement n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Then put fucking QUOTES around it, SLAD!
Jesus. If you don't understand that your imprecision is the genesis of most of the scrapes you get into other posters with (including me), then I can't help you. It's one of your ongoing problems.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. What the fuck are you talking about?
Edited on Wed Feb-04-09 09:32 PM by seemslikeadream
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. How the fuck would anyone know that it wasn't your statement....
Edited on Wed Feb-04-09 09:47 PM by SDuderstadt
when you wrote your post the way you did. That's what the fuck I'm talking about. You do this to yourself, then try to blame everyone around you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. You are beyond belief
Edited on Wed Feb-04-09 09:52 PM by seemslikeadream
Do you have any idea WHY I put that link there?


What is wrong with you? Are you having a relapse?


I know how difficult is, but try and get a grip, for all of our sakes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. How is someone supposed to know that the words introducing your post....
Edited on Wed Feb-04-09 09:53 PM by SDuderstadt
come from someone else? Are YOU having a relapse?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Try looking at the link
Edited on Wed Feb-04-09 09:55 PM by seemslikeadream
no wonder I never see you in GD or LBN. You would have no idea what anyone was talking about
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. What would be wrong with you simply placing someone else's words....
Edited on Wed Feb-04-09 09:58 PM by SDuderstadt
within quotes if you want to distinguish your words from others??? Is that too hard? Does it really surprise you that people get confused when trying to decipher your posts?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. you are the only one deary got a clue yet?
Edited on Wed Feb-04-09 10:24 PM by seemslikeadream
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Yep.
Never try to understand your comments rationally. You couldn't be plainer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. If I'm the only one, why did you have to reply to Realityhack that it...
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. tweedle dumb tweedle dee
Edited on Wed Feb-04-09 10:24 PM by seemslikeadream
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. As usual, your posts become more incoherent with each posting....
and, of course, you won't admit that your claim it was only me is simply untrue....
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. you and your shadow
Edited on Wed Feb-04-09 10:51 PM by seemslikeadream
and your shadow would NEVER pull that bullshit in GD

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Pull WHAT bullshit, SLAD?
Why don't you take it up with the moderators? I dare you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. I DARE YOU TO GO TO GD RIGHT NOW AND CRAP ON EVERY SINGLE POST
Edited on Wed Feb-04-09 11:09 PM by seemslikeadream
THAT HAS 3 TO 4 PARAGRAPHS A LINK AND NO QUOTION MARKS
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Hiya SLaD!
I fear the the distraction beasts are at it again!

Now, what was that message you were trying relay? Oh, yes...
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. Um...
Edited on Thu Feb-05-09 11:54 AM by Realityhack
Your accusing SDuderstadt of being distracting when more than one person mis-interpreted what SLAD posted and SLAD is the one posting badgers and saying things about Tweedle dumb and peoples 'shadow'?

IMO SLAD could have been clearer that the text was quoted from the link. Many people post links to support claims. This isn't an OP in LBN where people might expect the entire post to be a quote.

And as for the message... As far as I can tell SLAD has no message. While a quote and link were provided SLAD did not give ANY opinon on them to indicate if SLAD thought it was a good article, a bad one, a sill theory, a sound one, how it related, etc. etc.

Unfortunately some people here are/have reached the conclusion that SLAD will never post any personal opinion of any kind least SLAD have to answer for any error therein. SLAD will post ponderously long pieces of other peoples work but if it is criticized the refrain is simply... not my work.

On edit...

You will also note that when I raised a legitimate issue that might be interesting to discuss SLAD (and you) spent more time arguing over quotation marks (apparently trying to get the last word rather than admit an error may have been made) instead of discussing the substance of what I said.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. Fair enough...
Even though I didn't quite get your last paragraph, I'm too tired to argue it. Gee.... must be slipping. :-o
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. The 'on edit' part?
If you look up thread I responded to SLAD's article with some actual thoughts on the article. So far I don't see anyone interested in discussing wither I was off base in my thoughts or if they were informative etc. All people want to talk about is quotation marks.

SLAD is one of the first people here to accuse people of not discussing substantive issues. I brought one up and I think it is fair to point out it is being completely ignored in favor of a sub-thread dealing with quotation marks (or excerpts). I think this is a perfect example of SLAD choosing not to discuss substance (a point that has come up before).
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. SLAD is one of the first people here to accuse people of not discussing substantive issues.
Edited on Fri Feb-06-09 12:46 PM by seemslikeadream
BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. Prove those bullshit accusations
Edited on Fri Feb-06-09 01:03 PM by seemslikeadream
I do not engage in substantive discussions with people I do not respect and with folks here for only one purpose and that is NOT the truth. It is keeping alive the illusions, carry on
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. At least they're not keeping alive the allusions.
That would be far worse, IMO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Au contraire, mon amie.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. It's just an opinion.
Take it for what it's worth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #80
87. Not talking about substance with people you disagree with is...
an 'interesting' way of going through live. Good luck with that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. That is NOT what I said, why do you guys ALWAYS put YOUR words in other peoples mouths
Edited on Fri Feb-06-09 05:10 PM by seemslikeadream
Did I use the word disagree? NO! Read it again Sir!

THE WORD WAS R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #89
93. And you seem to have respect only for those you agree with.
That was what I was implying.

I have tried to have conversations with you about substance but you always seem to hide behind something.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. If I happen to be there....
I certainly will. In the meantime, however, the question is why you simply cannot enclose the words of others in quotation marks so that people don't make the honest mistake of assuming they are your words. What is so hard about that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. I have posted that way for 7 YEARS now and NO ONE, except for YOU
has ever critized me for that, MAYBE BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE POST THAT WAY?????? GET A CLUE, PLEASE
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Jesus, SLAD....
Wouldn't it be worth the few seconds it would take to enclose someone else's words in quotation marks to not get "critized" for it? See, when you enclose someone else's words in quotation marks, it's clear it's not your words, but theirs. Did you ever study english in school?

And you wonder why you get "critized" so much by folks in here who merely long for clear writing from you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. ONLY YOU ONLY YOU GET IT
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #73
98. False. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #49
66. So?
I know it isn't your statement. It was from your link. And I am indicating I am having some difficulty believing that the people who's work is being discussed in that link are taking an even handed un-biased approach to their research.

Thus conclusions based on that research are questionable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #49
67. Wait... I amend my previous post.
I did think the text ABOVE the link was yours. You should have put it in a blockquote or a quote. I think it is fairly easy to see it as your personal summary and conclusions based on the linked information.

The only reason I can think of for someone thinking it wasn't yours is that I have never seen you post your own opinion/conclusions here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. Sure whatever
There was a fucking link if you had taken 2 seconds to check the link but that's not really what's going on here and you know it
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. SLAD, it's real simple.....
Edited on Thu Feb-05-09 09:10 PM by SDuderstadt
when you enclose words in quotation marks, everyone knows that they are not your words. It amazes me that you're surprised when you don't enclose the words in quotation marks and people assume they are your words. Wtf difference does it make if you included a link? Are you saying that the words posted before the link are ALWAYS from the body of the link? How would we know if someome is adding their own comment? Why don't you quit being a big baby and simply write for clarity. It really isn't that hard.

You just assume that people know what you mean. With your poor writing style, it shouldn't surprise you that people often don't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #72
76. I did read the link.
But before reading it I thought those were your words. I can see others confusion.

Also... do you ever have an opinion on anything? I am sure everyone appriciates interesting articles but you never even indicate if you believe they are sane or crazy when you link.

Furthermore... care to discuss the substance of my response or are we just going to babble about quotes like a bunch of third graders? What do you think of their concept of the financial meltdown being pretend?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. I did not start the 3rd grade bullshit
That job belongs to someone else
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. Waiting for someone else to start the 3rd grade bullshit and then jumping in no holds barred
is 3rd grade bullshit
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. Is my answer trying to pretend that I don't contribute? No. You don't have a point.
Edited on Fri Feb-06-09 03:11 PM by Bolo Boffin
If you bothered to notice, my responses at the very beginning of this thread showed that SLAD didn't believe the LIHOP theory but the MIHOP. This demonstrates to the rational reader that SLAD is just throwing crap against the wall and seeing what sticks. She can't be bothered to be coherent about what she thinks happened or to advance a rational argument, so a counter argument is unnecessary. She's just looking for 3rd grade bullshit and she got it in spades and she's happy to up the ante whenever and where she finds 3rd grade bullshit.

And you've demonstrated the same capacity, so back off the high horse, lady.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Shows what you know...
which is that you put some people who challenge you into the "all in one" basket... But, you don't know what I've demonstrated in any forum or group any more than I know what you've said in other forums besides the 9-11 one.

By the way you analyze her LIHOP thread, you assume you speak for "the rational reader"? I don't believe you've gotten to understand that group.

They'll probably cover that for you next year when you're in the 4th grade.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. I do NOT wait around for others bullshit and I do not go into others threads just for bullshit
Edited on Fri Feb-06-09 05:12 PM by seemslikeadream
But if you all want to bring on the bullshit so be it and I WILL call you on it
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. Exhibit A. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. YOU always start the bullshit ALWAYS N/T
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Exhibit B. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #79
88. Another response that does not address the substance of my post.
I read your post and tried to start a discussion about it. You have chosen not to break away from distractions and respond to that substance. You could even do both... but instead you ONLY respond to the posts about your use or lack of use of quotation marks. You could abandon that subthread at any point and discuss the substance of what I wrote.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. Oh sure I am the one who is to back off, no way Jose
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. I could quote my own post...
would that help?

I understand you want to get the last word in... fine... but as I pointed out you COULD do both. But you choose not to.

You posted the article, I replied... your turn.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
99. How Close We Came to Total Meltdown EXBIT A AND B
Edited on Tue Feb-10-09 01:05 PM by seemslikeadream
How Close We Came to Total Meltdown
On C-Span, Rep. Paul Kanjorski (D-PA) explained how the Federal Reserve told members of Congress about an electronic run on the banks "to the tune of $550 billion dollars" within "an hour or two" last fall.

According to Kanjorski, on September 18, 2008 the Fed tried to "stem the tide" by pumping money into the financial system but it didn't work and decided instead to announce an immediate increase in deposit insurance to $250,000 per account to stop the panic.

Said Kanjorski: "If they had not done that, their estimation is that by 2 p.m. that afternoon, $5.5 trillion would have been drawn out of the money market system of the U.S., would have collapsed the entire economy of the U.S., and within 24 hours the world economy would have collapsed. It would have been the end of our economic system and our political system as we know it."



Congressman Explains Hijacking of the US Economy by the Federal Reserve & Treasury

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INAGMSARPYw




They've stalled the inevitable so that they can "get theirs" before it all comes tumbling down



MARSHALL LAW WOULD HAVE BEEN ENFORCED

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzF0W7-1CCc
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-10 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
102. The FBI have consistently weighed in on this story...
I see Coleen Rowley hasn't given up.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-11 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
103. Great thread...
so many memories, so many tombstones.

Thanks for kicking.

Sid
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Dec 22nd 2024, 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC