Building Collapses Lead to Complete Disintegration of the Structure

[spooked911]

D'oh!

"A 13-floor apartment building under construction collapses in Minhang district, Shanghai Saturday morning June 27, 2009, killing one worker. "




http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-06/27/content_8330067.htm

[Bolo Boffin]

1. When you learn the difference between 100% structural steel and concrete reinforced...

...hell, when you learn the difference between 13 and 110, let us know and we'll talk.

ETA: And there's another major difference between that building and the WTC buildings. Point it out for extra credit.

[whatchamacallit]

5. Endless dodgy bullshit...

No matter how many natural collapses you and your gang are shown, they are all wrong compared to what 9/11 taught us about "what really happens to buildings in a collapse"... Physical behavior never witnessed before or since is the now the standard for how we'd expect damaged skyscrapers to fall (according to the arm-chair engineers corp). I predict you will one day wallow in tremendous embarrassment.

[SDuderstadt]

6. "Truther Logic"

"A 13 story building of totally different design and construction should behave no differently than a 110 story building".


It's bullshit posts like this that account why so few people here take the "9/11 truth movement" seriously.

[whatchamacallit]

8. I'm still waiting for you geniuses to pony-up a video of *ANY STRUCTURE* that fell like the 3

Bring it bad ass.

[SDuderstadt]

9. Well, when we can find videos of other buildings that were...

1) 110 stories high (WTC 1 & 2) and 47 stories high (WTC 7)
2) Constructed over an existing electrical sub-station (WTC 7)
3) Were all a "tube-in-a-tube" design
4) Took up an entire city block (WTC 7)
5) Were struck by large jetliners at high rates of speed (WTC 1 & 2) or debris from the collapse of the foregoing (WTC 7) and
6) Were plagued by significant unfought fires


we'll be sure to show them to you posthaste. Do you know of any buildings that meet ALL those criteria? You don't? I didn't think so.

[whatchamacallit]

10. All your convenient modifiers are belong to us.

Thank god for your little list of special shit...

[SDuderstadt]

11. Again, you show your absolute ignorance of...

building design and building properties.

[whatchamacallit]

12. You know what slays me?

How you can somehow lay claim to vast knowledge of every topic discussed in here. I'm really fucking embarrassed for you, dude.

[SDuderstadt]

13. You might notice that I don't participate in certain threads....

think carefully about why that might be...hint: I, unlike you, participate in thread subjects I actually know something about. What a novel concept, huh...

BTW, I'm embarrassed for you in how you reveal your absolute ignorance of most topics discussed (I mean, seriously, why don't you approach a structural engineer and tell them why you believe all buildings, irrespective of design and construction, should behave identically when subjected to the same stress. Hopefully, they won't laugh at you too long.). Personally, I'm still laughing at you for demanding to know "how much I make a year". Of course, that sounds like the fallback position of someone badly losing a debate.

[whatchamacallit]

14. Are you a structural engineer?

You obviously feel confident in representing their views, so you must be. My bad for challenging you in an area that you are expert in. As far as that other question is concerned, I knew the answer before I asked it.

[SDuderstadt]

15. My first job out of undergraduate school was as...

an Assistant Building Official for a county. I was at the ICBO conference in Monterey in full voting capacity (you know, making changes to the UBC). Does that make me an expert in structural engineering? Hardly. But, it does give me enough knowledge to avoid making stupid claims that buildings should perform the same irrespective of design and construction, dude.

How are you making out with the implications of being a NOC question, dude? Making any headway? Need further hints? Would you like the names of some good books about the CIA so you can stop embarrassing yourself?

[Ghost in the Machine]

21. Sorry but WTC 7 was NOT a "tube in a tube design"...

That's why NIST was able to collect and test steel from the Twin Towers but could not unambiguously identify any steel as belonging to WTC 7...

[LARED]

22. Can you provide something ot back up that claim?

That's why NIST was able to collect and test steel from the Twin Towers but could not unambiguously identify any steel as belonging to WTC 7...

[Ghost in the Machine]

23. It came from an email exchange with Michael Newman of NIST

Analysis of WTC 7 Steel

D D to michael.newman
5/1/08

Hello,

I was wondering if you could tell me how much steel from WTC 7 has actually been analysed during your investigations. I have seen a report stating that there has been NONE, but I find that hard to believe. Any information you could provide would be greatly appreciated as I am in a debate/discussion over this matter and would like to have an informed opinion with which to speak from.

Thanks in advance for your time,

Douglas Davis
Niota, Tn

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"Michael E. Newman" to me
5/2/08

Douglas,

NIST sought to positively identify the origin of all steel used in its investigation of the World Trade Center disaster. This was accomplished either through identifying markings (stampings) or by geometry of the recovered steel. Of the seven buildings in the WTC complex, only the towers (WTC 1 and WTC 2) had identifying markings, or shapes of columns or beams sufficient to unambiguously identify the original building. It was not possible to unambiguously distinguish the steel from the hotel (WTC 3), the three similar nine story buildings (WTC 4 through WTC 6) and the 47-story WTC 7.

If NIST was not able to positively identify the origin of a sample of steel, then it was not used to draw conclusions or inferences. While NIST is aware of the steel sample described as "Sample 1" in Appendix C of the FEMA report on the WTC disaster, NIST found no evidence that the sample was from WTC 7. Since we have been unable to verify that this sample came from WTC 7, it was not used in the investigation.

NIST conducted tests of many specimens of steel identified from the WTC towers to obtain both physical and mechanical properties. The properties so obtained were found to fall within the expected variation. The measured properties were used in conjunction with historical values from the literature and, in some cases, recovered mill test results for the subsequent analyses. Using this same approach, even if "Sample 1" had been known to be from WTC 7, NIST would not use properties obtained from testing a single piece of steel as the basis of its calculations.

Furthermore, in its testing of recovered steel for the investigation, NIST has taken great care in preparing test specimens only from steel that did not show any evidence of damage. As indicated in the FEMA report, Sample 1 was severely eroded and, therefore, one would not expect to obtain reliable mechanical properties from a sample that was altered by high temperature corrosion.

Hope this answers your question.

Thank you,
Michael Newman
NIST Public Affairs

****************************************************************
Michael E. Newman
Senior Communications Officer
Public Affairs Office
National Institute of Standards and Technology
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 1070
Gaithersburg, MD 20899-1070

Phone: [phone]
FAX: [phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]

NIST info at http://www.nist.gov
NIST news and Tech Beat newsletter at http://www.nist.gov/news
WTC investigation info at http://wtc/nist.gov

****************************************************************


:hi:

[SDuderstadt]

24. If you read the "e-mail" he's offering as "proof"...

you'll see it doesn't remotely back his claim up. It's rather funny.

[Ghost in the Machine]

25. "True Believer" Logic..

I can't refute the facts, so I'll just make shit up to try to make myself look smug and important


Yes dude, it backs up EXACTLY what I claimed, and EXACTLY what LARED asked for...


As for your putting the word email in parenthesis, or quotation marks, does that mean you doubt the email is legitimate? If so, PM me your email addy and I'll forward it to you straight from my inbox. You could also just use the email addresses supplied for Michael Newman and ask him yourself...

[LARED]

26. Huh, you said ?

Sorry but WTC 7 was NOT a "tube in a tube design"...That's why NIST was able to collect and test steel from the Twin Towers but could not unambiguously identify any steel as belonging to WTC 7...

Then you post an email stating they could not identify steel outside of WTC 1 and 2 because WTC 1 and 2 were the only buildings that marked the steel well enough to determine it's origin.

Please explain how your email supports the idea that the steel in WTC 7 could not be identified because WTC 7 was not a tube in tube design?

[SDuderstadt]

27. I have no idea why he thinks that e-mail in any way supports his...

rather spurious claim. Maybe the problem is basic reading comprehension.

[Ghost in the Machine]

29. You have no idea about a lot of things... but that doesn't stop you from posting anyways

.. does it?

Email NIST yourself, just like I did. Do some of your own research instead of relying on others to make up your mind for you...

[LARED]

31. Maybe, I'd guess a basic ignorance of

steel construction.

[Ghost in the Machine]

28. Huh? *YOU* said:

Can you provide something ot back up that claim?
"That's why NIST was able to collect and test steel from the Twin Towers but could not unambiguously identify any steel as belonging to WTC 7"


You didn't ask about the tube in a tube design, just about NIST not being able to identify the steel... I figured maybe read about the design just like I did. I'm trying to find the article again so I can post a link to it. Hell, even Bolo Boffin runs around here saying how WTC 7 was a super unique design. If it was so unique, why couldn't they unambiguously identify any of the steel?

[LARED]

30. Double huh

.... even Bolo Boffin runs around here saying how WTC 7 was a super unique design.

The design of WTC 7 was pretty unique. The uniqueness is found mainly in the ability to build a 50 story skyscraper over a substation requiring some unique designs to span the transformers to name one. Reading about the design as you claim you might have picked up that bit of information

If it was so unique, why couldn't they unambiguously identify any of the steel?

from your email

NIST sought to positively identify the origin of all steel used in its investigation of the World Trade Center disaster. This was accomplished either through identifying markings (stampings) or by geometry of the recovered steel. Of the seven buildings in the WTC complex, only the towers (WTC 1 and WTC 2) had identifying markings, or shapes of columns or beams sufficient to unambiguously identify the original building. It was not possible to unambiguously distinguish the steel from the hotel (WTC 3), the three similar nine story buildings (WTC 4 through WTC 6) and the 47-story WTC 7.

Well your email states it very clearly. WTC 7 steel had no stampings (markings) nor was any of the geometry of the steel sufficiently unambiguous to be identified. You seem to believe that because WTC had a unique design the geometry of the steel MUST be unique. A belief that is entirely without merit.

[Ghost in the Machine]

35. "You seem to believe that because WTC had a unique design the geometry of the steel MUST be unique"

No LARED, the key word there was "IF":

"If it was so unique, why couldn't they unambiguously identify any of the steel?"

The fact is that WTC 7 was a unique architectural design, not a unique structural design.

Here's an even simpler fact. Every steel building I ever erected had some sort of "tube" in them. This, however, doesn't mean they were "tube in a tube". Tubes are used for support and perimeter columns every day. Most have a connector plate welded to them so the next section sits on top of it and they bolt together. Tube in a tube is where a smaller tube is inserted in the column so that the next tube sets down onto that samller tube, then they are welded together...

Do you have any knowledge, or hands on experience, with construction? Have you ever designed, or erected, a steel framed building? Do you think the smaller buildings, WTCs 3, 4, 5 & 6, were all tube in a tube design?

[vincent_vega_lives]

37. That's not whats meant by "tube in a tube"

It has to do with the 2 WTC towers being giant relatively hollow tubes. Perimeter columns being the outer tube and the core being the inner tube.

[Ghost in the Machine]

41. You're right, I've realized my error on this subject...

It's not often that I have a "DUH" moment.. but this was one of them...


Peace,

Ghost

[AZCat]

42. These things happen.

Even the best of us make mistakes.

[Ghost in the Machine]

43. Hiya AZCat

How's the world treating you? Hadn't seen you around for a while. Hope all is well with you, my friend...

:hi:

[AZCat]

44. What's up, Ghost?

I've been swamped the last couple of months, both at work and in my personal life. I don't mind, because it's mostly good stuff (I have a handful of green buildings projects on my desk, for example). I haven't had a lot of time for the internet, though. How have you been?

[Ghost in the Machine]

46. I'm doing ok here, thanks...

It's been a rough few weeks though. I'll live through.. I always do :-) Good to see you back around some...

Peace,

Ghost

[SDuderstadt]

48. Rough few weeks?

Anything at all we can do to help?

P.S. I am having my OP about the "tube in a tubes" misunderstanding deleted.

[Ghost in the Machine]

49. Thanks, SDuderstadt...

"Anything at all we can do to help?"

No sir, but I wish there was. I have severe nerve damage from two major neck surgeries after I fell off a building back in 2003. I suffer from chronic pain because of the spinal cord damage, nerve damage and trauma induced Syringomyelia. I'm fortunate to even be able to walk, but two weeks ago I lost feeling in my leg and fell, reinjuring myself. I wound up at the ER twice in 4 days because of pain... the results of now having two bulging disks in my neck and two in my back...

Life in the ol' Ghost's home is always a rollercoaster ride... I just try to hold on tight and enjoy the ride....

"P.S. I am having my OP about the "tube in a tubes" misunderstanding deleted."

Thanks dude, but you don't have to do that if you don't want to... it might be a good reminder for me to do a little more research before I post something....


Peace,

Ghost

[SDuderstadt]

50. I got nailed by a pick-up truck as I was crossing an intersection...

in the crosswalk with the signal. I had seen the pickup (not a small one, either...it was a Toyota Tundra) waiting in the left-hand turn bay and was looking down as I was traversing the crosswalk. I look up and saw him headed straight for me like he didn't see me. There was no time to dive out of the way in either direction, so I faced the truck and stuck my arms out to brace myself for the blow.

He knocked me about 10-15 feet, landed on my butt and hit the back of my head pretty good. The cops were on the scene almost immediately and I thought I was, nonetheless, pretty much okay. The cop asked me what day it was and I replied that it was Monday (which it was). Then he asked me who the President was and I said Reagan at first, then I corrected it to Obama but I was obviously more out of it than I thought.

Of course, being a guy, I declined the EMT's taking me to the hospital. It's still a little difficult when I sit down or stand up but the pain is almost gone. The point of all this ramble is that I wasn't even hurt nearly as bad as you but i understand the pain you're in. I was also just reading the police report and the driver lied and claimed he had a left-turn signal and felt it was not his fault as I "should not have been in the crosswalk". Luckily for me, there were three witnesses, all of whom told the officer the driver was full of shit.

Again, if there is anything at all any of us can do, you need only ask. We have some pretty spirited debates, however, at the end of the day I hope we're all friends (well, maybe with a few exceptions) and friends care about and help each other.

As far as my OP, it's too late: I already asked the mods to delete it, my friend. Again, our thoughts are with you and I hope you get some relief.

[Ghost in the Machine]

51. Ouch!

I hope you heal up quickly, with no permanent damage. I wouldn't wish this pain on my worst enemy.

When I got hurt, I refused to go to the hospital, too. I was more worried about leaving my truck at the job site, and I didn't want my folks to have to drive the 65 miles to Chattanooga just to come pick me up. It was friday, and I still needed to cash my check, too. I drove myself home and decided I was just gonna rest for the weekend and hope everything was alright. By monday morning I couldn't even get out of bed, couldn't lift my arms, and it hurt to even breathe. It was a good thing that my mom noticed my truck at home and stopped by to check on me. Everyone who knew me knew I had to be deathly ill to miss time from work. I LOVED those 12 hour days making 20 bucks an hour!


"Again, if there is anything at all any of us can do, you need only ask. We have some pretty spirited debates, however, at the end of the day I hope we're all friends (well, maybe with a few exceptions) and friends care about and help each other."

Thank you again, SDuderstadt, I really appreciate that. Yes, we get pretty spirited at times. I think sometimes we forget that there's another real person at the other end of our posts/debates. Exchanges like this one are good, as it serves as a reminder of that fact.

Yes, at the end of the day, we're all friends. We're here for various reasons, but one common thread is that we're Democrats. I wouldn't wish harm on anyone here...

Well, I have a 10am doctors appointment so I better scoot on off of here for a while. Hope you have a great evening...


Peace,

Ghost

[vincent_vega_lives]

53. Uh uh

You should REALLY get that head checked out. ALWAYS go to the hospital after a head injury.

That's how Liam Neesons wife died, and how my father-in-law almost died.

[SDuderstadt]

54. Are you doing okay today with the pain, Ghost?

What can we do to help? You're in our thoughts, buddy.

[Ghost in the Machine]

58. It's eased up a little today, thanks... was really bad yesterday

I start a pain management program August 4th. Hopefully it'll help a lot.


Peace, Dude...

Ghost

[SDuderstadt]

59. Keep us posted, would you Ghost?

We're pulling for you, buddy!

[SDuderstadt]

45. I'm going to break my rule and respond directly to you, Ghost...

It takes a big man to publicly admit an error like this. Thank you and the best to you.

[Ghost in the Machine]

47. I never have a problem admitting when I'm wrong...

I've been wrong before, and this won't be the last time either... I always figure that the day I stop learning is the day I die. Sometimes I learn lessons the hard way, but those are the ones that stick with you the most, aren't they?

:hi:


Peace,

Ghost

[vincent_vega_lives]

52. I admire you for admitting your misunderstanding

that doesn't happen too ofter around here :)

[LARED]

40. Please stop, I'm even getting embarrassed for you. - nt

[SDuderstadt]

36. Omigod....

Read Ghost's post and you'll see he doesn't even understand what a "tube in a tube" DESIGN is. He is talking about columns. It's hysterical.

[vincent_vega_lives]

33. unique

not too many buildings I know of have to incorporate what is essentially a bridge into the design to span a considerable space in the core of the structure.

[SDuderstadt]

34. Ghost thinks that makes....

WTC 7 something other than a "tube in a tube" design. That's what's so funny.

[Make7]

60. From this day forward, *anything* you have to say will be viewed as, at best, suspect...

az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=182119&mesg_id=182387

[hack89]

16. Sure, once you can find me a building that was hit by

a fully ladened 767 at full speed. Hell, I'll take any steel framed building hit by a large plane. It appears to me to be a never before happened event - I am sure however that you can evidence to the contrary. Don't you?

[spooked911]

17. except I never said this was perfectly analogous to the WTC

-- obviously there are major differences.

Nonetheless, the lack of pulverization here is remarkable.

[Bolo Boffin]

18. "obviously there are major differences"

Which, perhaps, explain the different results seen in their collapses.

The extra credit difference I was thinking of was basic shape of footprint. A long, thin rectangle versus the city-block-wide square of the Towers and the football-field size trapezoid of WTC 7. You'll notice that the building didn't tip over on the short end.

[spooked911]

57. actually, steel steel structures don't necessarily fall apart either when they fall

http://covertoperations.blogspot.com/2008/05/large-steel-structures-are-like-houses.html

[SDuderstadt]

19. Why did you post it here then, Spooked?

Read your subject line, then try to tell us you didn't post it as if to say, "well, this building collapsed but didn't disintegrate like the WTC". More of your "truther" bullshit.

[LARED]

20. There are many things remarkable about the collaspe

you posted. The lack of pulverization is completely and unequivocally unremarkable.

[spooked911]

56. I disagree-- the lack of breaking apart and pulverization is the most interesting part!

are you saying bldgs fall down all the time and stay intact like this?

[LARED]

2. Well it was either mini-nukes or

the foundations were built on the equivalent of rice pudding. I'm guessing the latter.

[Bolo Boffin]

3. Oh, that's not the one I was thinking of.

Points for being correct, however. :D

[Ohio Joe]

4. I'm sorry, your wrong. It is clear what happened here

Obviously, the building was built on a giant trap door, with a spring underneath that popped the door open, knocking the building over and then closing again. No building has ever fallen over at free fall speed and remained intact, as this one has. WHY ARE THERE NO PICTURES OF THE GROUND THE BUILDING STOOD ON!

[AZCat]

7. This is why you pay attention to your overturning moment, boys and girls. n/t

[vincent_vega_lives]

32. Looks like it was built on a rather unstable earth base

rather than anchored in bedrock. Pivot point was at ground level.

Make it simple. Try to imagine this in terms of Lego blocks.

Build a 1' tall building out of lego blocks and tip it over. The structure's own mass vs integrity ratio is low enough that it will most likely retain it's structural integrity.

Now try the same with a 10' high Lego structure. the structure will be too massive to retain any integrity when tipped over. This is due to the nature of gravity and material strengths.

[chrisa]

38. A random building falling

With a completely different structure, different height, different era being built in, and on the opposite end of the world does not say anything about the World Trade Center. Comparing the two is just ludicrous.

[cherokeeprogressive]

39. That building didn't collapse, it leaned over. n/t

[One_Life_To_Give]

55. And Labiance Plaza Pancaked

Your point is what that not all buildings of differeing designs collapse identically?