AA 11: The Flight manifest?!

[John Doe II]

Here is a very interesting analysis of the fligt manifest by Gerard Holmgren which I'd like to present. And I'd be happy if nobody writes about Homgren's Pentagon analysis but about the flight manifests:

http://www.indymedia.be/news/2004/05/84711.php

[whistle]

1. So does this mean that the five hijackers were never on...

...board flight AA-11?
Why did the aircraft fly into the tower then? Was it flown in by remote control?
If it was, what about all of the passengers and crew on flight AA-11? How were they immobilized?
Why were none of them able to communicate what was happening to others outside of the plane?
What about the other three planes, how were those flights controlled?
Is it even possible to remotely control huge jet liners?

[pretzel4gore]

2. david copperfield made the statue of liberty disappear

on live tv...remember? AND! Nasa staged the moon landings several times! They even did it on location! (sneaky bastards!) and it only cost us $30 billion! And the fake tv shots they made for the taxpayers (due to camera glare etc fake pics were necessary) foxnews would have included lil green men for gosh sakes! Haliburton would have spent 100 billion just to train astronaut ollie north! (sigh)... that's how shortchanged the US economy's been cheated by a pissant public service outfits like nasa! Thank gad for george junior....

[Old and In the Way]

3. If it was, what about all of the passengers and crew on flight AA-11?

Fascinating link John Doe....the more I read, the less I know about 9/11.

In response to your question whistle, check this link off the same thread:

http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=36354&group=webcast

"This still leaves unanswered the question of what happened to the passengers alleged to be aboard the non
existent flights. In the case of AA 77, while one can always speculate about the most plausible scenarios, I
prefer to wait until some real evidence emerges. However in the case of AA 11, I think it is worth noting
that UA 175 left from the same airport, at the same time for the same destination as that normally applicable
to AA 11. Therefore, although there is no direct evidence to support the claim, it would seem reasonable to
speculate at this stage that any passengers who were regular fliers on AA 11, and asked to booked on it that
day, went to the airport, expecting to get on AA 11, as per the normal routine. They were then told that
there was a last minute problem with the flight which could not be fixed within a reasonable period of time,
and were offered a flight on UA 175 as compensation. " Plenty of room on 175 to accommodate both. Strange that normally full transcontinent flights are less than 1/2 filled. I flew UA175 on 8/1/01 and it was pretty filled. My business partner and I had to split up to because we booked late and couldn't get seats assigned together.

Interesting archival evidence from BTS that shows neither AA11 and AA77 scheduled to fly that day. Thinking about it, the only plane that we have direct visual evidence of is 175....

[RH]

4. neither AA11 and AA77 scheduled?

Really?

AA77 was a regular flight.

It flew every day ever for as far back as the BTS database goes.

Tickets were sold for 9/11/2001.

I have not yet seen the slightest trace of any cancellation notice.

The Scheduled departure time is shown in the BTS database as 8:10 and the Scheduled elapsed time: 0326

The Scheduled departure time for Fight 11 from BOS is shown in the BTS database as 7:45 and the Scheduled elapsed time: 0374

http://www.bts.gov/cgi-bin/ntda/oai/DetailedStatistics/OAI_B1.PL?DetSta=DepSta&FirLevSel=DetSta

[Old and In the Way]

5. Who to believe?

From ewing2001's one post on my referenced link-

http://news.globalfreepress.com/ewing/airline_boston911.html
http://news.globalfreepress.com/ewing/airline_dcdulles911.html

And this post at the bottom of the thread, just posted. 9/30/04:


Hanky panky
by Bruce Miller 11:20am Thu Sep 30 '04 comment#46809
Bructmill

Unfortunately, the scenario you just described about the NWO tampering with the BTS records has come to pass. Today(9/29/04), I discovered that more than three years after the event, somebody has inserted AA11 and AA77 into the BTS records for 9/11/01, They were not in there as of two weeks ago. I am kicking myself for not having the foresight to have run off copies of not only sept.11, but also 9/12,13,14 as well since the two AA flights were still shown as scheduled for those days.

[RH]

6. A schedule

is usually something produced to be used before an event, not after the event. I see no reason therefore not to believe the people who relied upon it, the travel agents, the airlines and airport staff and the friends and relatives of passengers who purchased tickets and reservations.

Do you think that maybe they'd have noticed if a regularly scheduled flight was extraordinarily cancelled?

[Old and In the Way]

7. Relatives wouldn't know. Airport staff, as far as I know, haven't been

talking, and travel agents wouldn't be aware of this, per se. The scenario presented is certainly intriguing....lots of odd things about those 2 flights....the fact that both were not in the bts database on 9/11 is quite an anomoly, no? I wonder how many other flights on 9/11 didn't make the database that day?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Old and In the Way]

9. I didn't say they didn't die that day.

It just may not be the way this government is telling us.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Woody Box]

18. Al Filipov

that relatives did know the flight numbers, and they did of course know when and where people flew.

Loretta Filipov is the wife of Al Filipov, a passenger of flight 11 whose name is on every published manifest.

On September 11, at 7:45 a.m, Filipov called her from the "Admiral's Club" at Boston Airport to tell her that he was going to switch his delta flight to American Airlines.

In the same moment, at 7:45 a.m., a plane pushed back from Gate 32, identifying itself to the Ground Controller as "American 11 heavy". Filipov was surely not aboard this plane.

It is said that this plane later crashed into the North Tower. This might be true or not, but Filipov did surely not die in the North Tower because he was not aboard this plane.

Al Filipov didn't reappear, however. We have do accept a sad high probability that he's dead. But because he didn't die in the North Tower crash, he was probably killed by other means.

Who killed him?

[Abe Linkman]

20. Good question.

One can't help but also wonder about what it was that caused Mr. Filipov to lose his life.

YOUR question is certainly the more important one, and in raising the one I mentioned, I do not mean in any way to detract from the importance of knowing WHO is responsible for causing the sadness in the Filipov family.

[RH]

25. "we"?

Who is this "we" that have do accept?

I have not yet seen Loretta Filipov subscribe to your conviction.

So because of what then would your opinion be worth more than hers?

[Woody Box]

35. "opinion"?

Alexander Filipov, father of David Filipov, the Globe's Moscow bureau chief, was on Flight 11, but wasn't supposed to be. Alexander Filipov had a ticket for a Delta flight, but he changed it at the last minute.

''He called my mother at 7:45 to tell her,'' David Filipov said from Moscow. ''It was one of those last-second switches. Usually you hear about the switch the other way.''

http://www.boston.com/news/packages/underattack/globe_stories/0912/LA_bound_2_planes_left_trail_of_griefP.shtml

The last contact Alexander Filipov had with his family was when he called his wife from American Airline's Admiral's lounge at Boston's Logan Airport at 7:45 a.m.

http://www.cbsnews.com/earlyshow/healthwatch/healthnews/20010913terror_russian.shtml

[RH]

61. What else but an opinion?

What if anything corroborates any opinion to the effect that "7:45 a.m." is absolutely correct?

Do you rely upon nothing but a news report?

That would certainly be a dumb thing to do.

What do the relatives have to have to say about it?

The sensible assumption is simply, of course, that it is not correct.

[DulceDecorum]

63. I "imagine"you are wrong

Now lets see if you can prove otherwise.

[Old and In the Way]

10. So why was 77 and 11 not in the bts database?

Hey, lucky for me it wasn't on 8/7/01 or I'd have been having tears shed for me...I was on UA175 from Boston.

Seems to me that no justice has been served for the 3000 that died that day....and there are still too many questions unanswered....so I'll continue to post my comments as I'm sure you'll continue to do your job of trying to shut down any discussion about what happened on 9/11.

[RH]

14. the bts database provides ontime statistics.

That is the very point and purpose of it.

It is not then reasonable to expect a hijacked aircraft to be on time, is it?

[Old and In the Way]

17. What's the probability of 77 and 11 both missing from the bts database on

9/11?

[John Doe II]

19. No "wheele-off-time" for AA 11 and AA 77

Theses flights were scheduled that day but the BTS does show no wheele-off-time for AA 11 and AA 77 on 911.


Why?

[RH]

21. Possibly the information,

or at least the complete set of flight information data, died with the aircraft before it was submitted.

Incomplete sets of data are bad news for any attempt to process results.

Or possibly simply because the people responsible had more urgent matters to attend to.

There was a lot of discussion about this some time ago on DU, with some details given about the system used to collect the wheels off data.

[John Doe II]

22. BTS

I thought the wheels-off-time is automatically transferred via ACARS.
And moreover at the take off time of AA 11 and AA 77 responsible hadn't yet more urgent things to do.
So, I'm still wondering.

[RH]

28. automatically transferred via ACARS to what?

I would imagine that the information is stored until such time that a full set of data is ready to proceed to BTS.

Rather than lose sleep over it why not ask the Airline?

[DulceDecorum]

32. "I would imagine"

is the operative phrase.

RH,
you can imagine whatever the heck you want to.
And your imagination has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with ACARS
or ARINC
or Air Traffic Control
or the passenger manifest
or the BTS.

If the BTS did NOT get the data
from a flight that WAS NEVER SCHEDULED
what in tarnation are we going to ask the airline?

And please remember that the airline has been gagged
by our good friends at
the FBI.

Furthermore, ACARS data is NOT stored up for future reporting.
ARINC prides itself very very highly on its ability to process data in real time
and that real-time data transfer
is what makes ATC viable.

According to the Commission's account:

"the first 46 minutes of Flight 93’s cross-country trip proceeded routinely. Radio communications from the plane were normal. Heading, speed, and altitude ran according to plan. At 9:24, Ballinger’s warning to United 93 was received in the cockpit. Within two minutes, at 9:26, the pilot, Jason Dahl, responded with a note of puzzlement: “Ed, confirm latest mssg plz—Jason.”70 The hijackers attacked at 9:28. While traveling 35,000 feet above eastern Ohio, United 93 suddenly dropped 700 feet. Eleven seconds into the descent, the FAA’s air traffic control center in Cleveland received the first of two radio transmissions from the aircraft...."

70. On FDR, see NTSB report,“Specialist’s Factual Report of Investigation—Digital Flight Data Recorder” for United Airlines Flight 93, Feb. 15, 2002; on CVR, see FBI report,“CVR from UA Flight #93,” Dec. 4, 2003; Commission review of Aircraft Communication and Reporting System (ACARS) messages sent to and from Flight 93 (which indicate time of message transmission and receipt); see UAL record, Ed Ballinger ACARS log, Sept. 11, 2001. At 9:22, after learning of the events at the World Trade Center, Melody Homer, the wife of co-pilot Leroy Homer, had an ACARS message sent to her husband in the cockpit asking if he was okay. See UAL record,ACARS message, Sept. 11, 2001.

79. FBI reports of investigation, interviews of recipients of calls from Todd Beamer, Sept. 11, 2001, through June 11, 2002; FBI reports of investigation, interviews of recipients of calls from Sandy Bradshaw, Sept. 11, 2001, through Oct. 4, 2001.Text messages warning the cockpit of Flight 93 were sent to the aircraft by Ed Ballinger at 9:24. See UAL record, Ed Ballinger’s ACARS log, Sept. 11, 2001.
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?noframes;read=54404

So what the heck happened with American Airlines, eh?
United Airlines planes left the ground.
United Airlines planes were using ACARS.
And United Airlines planes remain on the FAA Civil Aviation Registry.

Read part 70
again RH.
CAREFULLY, THIS TIME.

Commission review of
Aircraft Communication and Reporting System
(ACARS) messages
sent to and from Flight 93
(which indicate time of message transmission and receipt.)

REAL TIME TRANSMISSION.

[RH]

45. Flight 77 was scheduled.

It is shown as such in the BTS database.

ACARS data obviously is stored up for future reporting.

It is thus routinely reported in BTS database.

[John Doe II]

48. Proof

Can you please give a link that AA 77 figures in the BTS database on 911?

[DulceDecorum]

52. Everything the BTS knows about Flight 77

Results of Searching Detailed Statistics
"Departure Statistic(s):Scheduled Departure Time,Actual Departure Time,Scheduled Elapsed Time,Actual Elapsed Time,Departure Delay,Wheels-off Time,Taxi-out Time"
"Airport(s):IAD"
"Airline(s):AA"
"Month(s):September"
"Day(s):11"
"Year(s):2001"
"Airport: Washington, DC-Washington Dulles International (IAD)"
Carrier Code, AA,
Date (MM/DD/YYYY), 09/11/2001,
Flight Number, 0077,
Tail Number, UNKNOW,
Destination Airport, LAX,
Scheduled Departure Time , 8:10,
Actual Departure Time , 0:00,
Scheduled Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0326,
Actual Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0000,
Departure Delay (Minutes), 0,
Wheels-off Time , 0:00,
Taxi-out Time (Minutes) 0000

Yeah, yeah.
I know.
The BTS recently issued a disclaimer which says:

On September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight #11 and #77 and United Airlines #93 and #175 were hijacked by terrorists. Therefore, on-time statistics are not available for these flights.

So lets see what the BTS has to say about the other famous 911 flights.

"Airport: Newark, NJ-Newark Liberty International (EWR)"
Carrier Code, UA,
Date (MM/DD/YYYY), 09/11/2001,
Flight Number, 0093,
Tail Number, N591UA,
Destination Airport, SFO,
Scheduled Departure Time , 8:00,
Actual Departure Time , 8:01,
Scheduled Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0374,
Actual Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0000,
Departure Delay (Minutes), 1,
Wheels-off Time , 8:28,
Taxi-out Time (Minutes) 0027

"Airport: Boston, MA-Logan International (BOS)"
Carrier Code, UA,
Date (MM/DD/YYYY), 09/11/2001,
Flight Number, 0175,
Tail Number, N612UA,
Destination Airport, LAX,
Scheduled Departure Time , 8:00,
Actual Departure Time , 7:58,
Scheduled Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0376,
Actual Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0000,
Departure Delay (Minutes), -2,
Wheels-off Time , 8:23,
Taxi-out Time (Minutes) 0025

Great Jumping Jehosophat!!
I guess the BTS really wwas telling the truth about unavailable stats.
Here is EVERYTHING
that the BTS has on Logan (BOS) for September 11, 2001.

UA, 09/11/2001, 0051, UNKNOW, LAX, 12:55, 0:00, 0364, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0159, UNKNOW, SFO, 12:55, 0:00, 0375, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0161, UNKNOW, SFO, 9:00, 0:00, 0385, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0163, N526UA, SFO, 7:00, 6:57, 0386, 0000, -3, 7:20, 0023
UA, 09/11/2001, 0167, UNKNOW, SFO, 10:45, 0:00, 0377, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0169, UNKNOW, LAX, 17:35, 0:00, 0375, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0171, UNKNOW, SFO, 17:40, 0:00, 0381, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0173, UNKNOW, SFO, 19:40, 0:00, 0383, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0175, N612UA, LAX, 8:00, 7:58, 0376, 0000, -2, 8:23, 0025
UA, 09/11/2001, 0177, UNKNOW, LAX, 18:55, 0:00, 0375, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0199, UNKNOW, IAD, 10:45, 0:00, 0090, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0211, N463UA, IAD, 7:45, 7:39, 0097, 0085, -6, 7:51, 0012
UA, 09/11/2001, 0223, UNKNOW, IAD, 9:45, 0:00, 0098, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0317, UNKNOW, IAD, 11:45, 0:00, 0094, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0420, UNKNOW, ORD, 18:30, 0:00, 0166, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0503, N314UA, ORD, 6:00, 5:52, 0161, 0152, -8, 6:11, 0019
UA, 09/11/2001, 0505, N431UA, DEN, 8:00, 7:52, 0273, 0000, -8, 8:10, 0018
UA, 09/11/2001, 0507, N564UA, ORD, 7:30, 7:28, 0157, 0238, -2, 7:43, 0015
UA, 09/11/2001, 0509, UNKNOW, ORD, 10:30, 0:00, 0161, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0515, UNKNOW, ORD, 11:30, 0:00, 0152, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0519, UNKNOW, ORD, 13:30, 0:00, 0158, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0523, UNKNOW, ORD, 15:30, 0:00, 0165, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0531, UNKNOW, ORD, 20:00, 0:00, 0162, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0575, UNKNOW, ORD, 12:30, 0:00, 0157, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0583, N433UA, DEN, 6:00, 5:57, 0270, 0254, -3, 6:10, 0013
UA, 09/11/2001, 0595, UNKNOW, ORD, 16:30, 0:00, 0161, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0701, UNKNOW, DEN, 18:40, 0:00, 0269, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0883, UNKNOW, ORD, 9:30, 0:00, 0160, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0895, N461UA, ORD, 8:30, 8:24, 0158, 0000, -6, 8:40, 0016
UA, 09/11/2001, 0987, UNKNOW, JFK, 20:15, 0:00, 0072, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 0999, UNKNOW, SFO, 16:05, 0:00, 0381, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 1015, UNKNOW, DEN, 16:40, 0:00, 0270, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 1051, UNKNOW, IAD, 16:45, 0:00, 0101, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 1119, UNKNOW, DEN, 11:10, 0:00, 0269, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 1153, UNKNOW, IAD, 19:00, 0:00, 0095, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 1411, UNKNOW, IAD, 14:45, 0:00, 0105, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 1439, N356UA, ORD, 6:30, 6:26, 0161, 0161, -4, 6:40, 0014
UA, 09/11/2001, 1607, UNKNOW, DEN, 14:33, 0:00, 0266, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 1685, UNKNOW, IAD, 15:45, 0:00, 0108, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 1690, UNKNOW, ORD, 14:30, 0:00, 0149, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 1789, UNKNOW, ORD, 17:30, 0:00, 0162, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 1877, N556UA, IAD, 6:45, 6:39, 0090, 0092, -6, 6:52, 0013
UA, 09/11/2001, 1879, UNKNOW, IAD, 20:00, 0:00, 0095, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000
UA, 09/11/2001, 1947, N435UA, IAD, 8:45, 0:00, 0096, 0000, 0, 0:00, 0000

The total number of records: 44

[John Doe II]

106. No post

sorry. Misposted here.

[Woody Box]

36. ACARS for beginners: OOOI messages

There is no need to ask the Airline. Google is your friend.

http://www.sasflightops.com/dlk/oooi.htm

In comparison, automatic ACARS movement messages (OOOIs) have many advantages. For example:

* The movement report is received by SAS with minimum delay (seconds).
* The movement report is received more reliably.
* The movement times are correct and synchronized to UTC (GMT).
* Ground staff can be used for more productive duties.

The OOOI messages are sent automatically, triggered by sensors on the aircraft.

Movement: Out
Event: Leaving gate or parking position
Trigger Condition: Parking brake released, all doors are closed.
Message Contents: Out time
Example: OUTRP 1865/31 ENZV/EKCH .SE-DNM /OUT 0650

Movement: Off
Event: Take off
Trigger Condition: Air/ground sensor on landing gear to "airborne" state
Message Contents: Out time Off time Initial ETA
Example: OFFRP 1350/28 ENGM/ENVA .OY-KKD /OUT 0859/OFF 0906/ETA 0946

Movement: On
Event: Touch down
Trigger Condition: Air/ground sensor on landing gear to "ground" state
Message Contents: On time
Example: ONRP 1499/31 ESSA/ENGM .SE-DIA /ON 0651

Movement: In
Event: Arrival at gate or parking position
Trigger Condition: Parking brake set, any door is opened.
Message Contents: On time In time
Example: INRP 0403/31 ESSA/EKCH .OY-KIL /ON 0637/IN 0643

Movement: Return-to-gate
Event: Returns to gate after Out event
Trigger Condition: In event detected after Out event.
Message Contents: Return time
Example: RTNRP 0431/31 ESGG/EKCH .LN-ROB /RTN 0522

Movement: Touch-and-go
Event: Takes off immediately after landing
Trigger Condition: Off event detected after On event.
Message Contents: T&G time
Example: TCHRP 9431/29 EKCH/EKCH .SE-DNS /TCH 1412

[RH]

47. That information pertains to SAS

i.e. Scandinavian Flight Operations.

To the best of my knowledge SAS was not involved with 9/11.

[DulceDecorum]

83. All the better

Now we know how things are SUPPOSED to work
and we can see them actually working properly.

[RH]

88. According to what?

Who SUPPOSES?

I see no reason whatsoever to suppose that every carrier operates in the same way, nor even that the same hardware is employed, let alone the sofware.

[DulceDecorum]

102. YOU may not see it

but most people who work with aircraft or travel on them
DO see carriers operating in the same way
with the same hardware
and the same software.

Ask your buddy MercutioATC
if he gives the same instructions
via the same equipment
to the same planes
landing on the same runways.
Then ask him the same rules and regulations apply to all.
Let us know what he has to say.
Knowing MercutioATC,
the answer could prove interesting....

[DulceDecorum]

26. MercutioATC will confirm

the necessity of the the data being sent
and the nature in which ARINC
(the company that processes the data)
is virtually indispensable to Air Traffic Control.

Aircraft file servers are distinct from ground-based servers, however, because they must be ruggedized and made to meet RTCA DO-160 specifications. They also must withstand temperature extremes.
Typically, file servers are installed on aircraft for the following purposes:
Passenger service, providing e-mail and Internet access, audio and video to passenger seats, wired or wireless.
FLIGHT OPERATIONS (with aircraft communications addressing and reporting system or satellite communications), sending and receiving operational documentation such as minimum equipment lists, weather, weight and balance calculations, PASSENGER MANIFESTS, FLIGHT PLANS, and flight operations quality assurance (FOQA) data; and
Maintenance operations, providing software data loading and connection to the central maintenance system, which allows the ramp/line technician to use a laptop to access post-flight reports, wire diagrams and maintenance manuals.
http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/av/show_mag.cgi?pub=av&mon=0204&file=0204product_focus.htm

So, tell us then, RH,
if ACARS was disabled,
then how did that thing remain aloft?
Or are you trying to say that
plane did not even need any hijackers
to smack it into the WTC once the ACARS blinked out?

Incidentally,
you will be happy to know that
ARINC knows for a fact that those Flight 11 cellphone calls are fake.

November 18, 2004
London, UK—ARINC Incorporated and Telenor today gave leading UK and European journalists a demonstration of the technology that will make in-flight mobile phone service a reality.
http://www.arinc.com/news/2004/11-18-04.html

The only way those calls could have been made
is if the plane never ever took off.
Which reminds me,
where are those BTS WHEELS OFF TIMES for Flight 11?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DulceDecorum]

60. And how pray, is ARINC to speak here?

Your buddy, MercutioATC has an account.

Since he has painted himself into a corner,
RH claims:
"Unauthorised rperesentations are invalid." sic

This is simply another way of trying to squelch discussion.

[RH]

65. I am not authorised

to answer for ARINC.

Ask ARINC.

[DulceDecorum]

68. So nobody here can speak about ARINC's activities

without engaging the wrath of RH.

RH,
it would appear that you assume more power here
on the DU 911 forum
than does the Congress of the United States of America.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

But yet and still,
one who is NOT himself authorized to speak for ARINC
is stifling discussion
on the Flight 11 and Flight 77
and the fact that ARINC is the company that operates ACARS.

Since ARINC did NOT tell you to shut us up,
WHO DID?

[RH]

70. Speaking about them

and speaking for them are not the same thing.

[DulceDecorum]

80. So lets talk * about * ARINC.

Where do you go to find a single company that can provide all the aviation voice and data communications you need? Ask ARINC.
No one understands aviation voice and data communication systems and networks better than ARINC. In fact, we helped develop the system that's still in use today by aircraft and ground stations to communicate with one another.
http://www.arinc.com/products/voice_data_comm/index.html

Aircraft (C)ommunication (A)ddressing and (R)eporting (SY)stem
was developed by ARINC.

On September 11, 2001, ACARS linked to Flight 93 and to Flight 175.
On September 11, 2001, we nothing that would lead us to believe that ACARS linked to Flight 11 or to Flight 77.
Both American Airlines and United Airlines use ACARS.
ACARS was working.
That is how all the other AA and UA planes landed.
There are no reports
(as far as I have been able to determine)
of ACARS failing to operate properly on September 11, 2001.
There is no data for Flight 77 or for Flight 11.
The mention of Flight 77 on the BTS database
is something that twas added very recently
after certain feet were held in the fire.

The fact still remains that
ACARS can and does report data from AA planes to the BTS.
So what happened to
JUST THOSE TWO PARTICULAR PLANES
on September 11, 2001?

[RH]

84. You have yet to show that

ARINC has got anything to do with communication between AA and BTS.

My guess is simply that the 9/11 incidents stalled the process because sets of data were not complete. Anybody likely to lose sleep over it needs to talk to AA and BTS to find out how they work, not to ARINC.

[DulceDecorum]

87. ARINC must have flexed its muscles

and very powerful muscles they are.

RH says:
Anybody likely to lose sleep over it needs to talk to AA and BTS to find out how they work, not to ARINC.

[RH]

89. What the hell

is that supposed to mean?

:shrug:

You never seem to realise when long since failing to make sense. Did the autopilot button get stuck?

[DulceDecorum]

94. Mess with ARINC

and they might just mess with you.

ARINC handles a LOT of aircraft and airport data management.
Ask MercutioATC.
You, RH,
have been sneering at them and insinuating that ARINC is at fault because Flight 11 and Flight 77 do not show up on the BTS database.

ARINC Incorporated is the world leader in transportation communications and systems engineering. The company develops and operates communications and information processing systems and provides systems engineering and integration solutions to transportation, national defense, government, and industrial customers. Founded to provide reliable and efficient radio communications for the airlines, ARINC is headquartered in Annapolis, Maryland, with over 3,000 employees worldwide.
http://www.arinc.com/news/2002/06-26-02.html

December 1929
Several representatives from the major airlines meet in Washington, D.C. to discuss their future communications requirements. It is their foresight and collaborative effort that provides the catalyst from which ARINC is created. ARINC soon takes responsibility for all ground-based, aeronautical radio stations.
http://www.arinc.com/75th/1930s.html

February 19, 2004
Annapolis, Maryland, USA—ARINC Incorporated has been named recipient of the 2004 Future Systems Award at Europe's most prestigious air traffic management show, the 2004 Maastricht ATC Symposium. The event is sponsored by Jane's Publications and draws 600 delegates annually to Maastricht, The Netherlands.
http://www.arinc.com/news/2004/02-19b-04.html

ARINC sponsors the Pentagon Report which is aired on FederalNewsRadio.
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/
and the Pentagon is probably one of the biggest clients that ARINC has ever had.

July 31, 2003
Annapolis, Maryland, USA—Washington Technology Magazine has named ARINC Incorporated to 26th place on its June, 2003 list of the Top 100 major players in the federal IT marketplace. ARINC’s earnings of $277,558,000 in IT sales surpassed their sales from last year 13% although their ranking did not change.
Federal IT investment has been up steadily for the past two years, and industry sources say some of that growth can be traced back to federal initiatives to increase integration of government technologies, following the events of September 11, 2001.
http://www.arinc.com/news/2003/07-31b-03.html

RH,
keep sneering at ARINC
and you just may earn yourself a Darwin Award.
Oh darn,
you stopped reviling ARINC.
Now you will just have to find some other way to earn that award.

P.S.
ACARS was working on September 11, 2001.
How else did MercutioATC and his colleagues
and the actual pilots
landed all those planes?
But it is really rather weird to see just how many planes refrained from taking off on that morning.
Miss Cleo probably said something to them......

[RH]

95. Never once did you ever

correctly represent what I have written.

The present instance in thus no great surprise.

[DulceDecorum]

99. Awwwww

shucks.

As Wolf Blitzer once said:
Get over it.

[DulceDecorum]

104. ARINC, ACARS, & the BTS,

Last month, we gave you some background information on Aeronautical Radio, Inc (ARINC) and Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS). ACARS is the communications vehicle through which ARINC communicates with subscribing aircraft.

THE ARINC / ACARS CONNECTION

In July 1989, PDC (Pre-Departure Clearance) first began as a demonstration of a Mitre Corporation prototype using the ARINC data networks at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport. American Airlines was the first participating carrier. By December 1989, Chicago O'Hare joined the demonstration and United Airlines was added. USAir and Delta began receiving PDCs in mid-1990. In September 1990, San Francisco began the demonstration, and all four carriers participated. As a result of the great success at the towers and with the airlines, other airlines wanted to participate, and the Air Transport Association (ATA) petitioned the FAA for a national program.

THE ACARS / AMERICAN AIRLINES CONNECTION
THE ACARS / UNITED AIRLINES CONNECTION
See also:
http://www.acarsonline.co.uk/aclink/aloprcde.htm

For a bit of trivia, the first aircraft to receive a D-ATIS (Digital Automatic Terminal Information Service ) was American Airlines flight #33 going into Houston's Intercontinental Airport on 19 July 1996.
http://afsafety.af.mil/magazine/htdocs/aprmag97/apr97006.htm

THE ACARS / BTS CONNECTION

In fulfilling DOT's data reporting requirements, air carriers use a combination of electronic and manual systems for collecting flight data. Those using an electronic system rely on the Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS).7 ACARS is an air/ground satellite communication network that receives transmissions from an aircraft's onboard computer system, which is then transmitted to the air carriers' host computer. The system, which is maintained by Aeronautical Radio, Incorporated, costs about $60,000 per aircraft to install.
Beyond recording departure and arrival times, ACARS supports a number of air traffic control and operational requirements of the participating air carriers. Of the 10 reporting air carriers, only 3 do not use ACARS, relying instead on their pilots, gate agents, and/or ground crews to manually record departure times.8
In our analysis of the three non-ACARS air carriers, we found significant discrepancies between our observed times and those reported by two of the air carriers. All three air carriers used wheels rolling as their method for defining gate departure (which we also used). For one of the three air carriers, the variance between our observed times and theirs was less than 30 seconds (the lowest level for any of the 10 air carriers). For the other two air carriers, however, their reported times averaged more than 3 minutes earlier than our observed times.
<snip>
RECOMMENDATIONS
We make the following recommendations:
1. Director, BTS, establish one common definition of gate departure and require all air carriers to report accordingly, and work with the two non-ACARS air carriers in question to ensure accurate reporting of their departure data submissions to DOT. If reporting problems persist, BTS should refer the case to DOT's Assistant General Counsel for Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings for possible enforcement action.20
http://www.oig.dot.gov/show_txt.php?id=260

As you can see from this February 5, 1999 publication,
the BTS appears to find ACARS to be more reliable than the other available options.
So much so that
two of the three airlines that did not use ACARS
were in danger of disciplinary action.

Hopefully,
this post will serve to demonstrate that
there is a definite connection between ARINC, ACARS,and the BTS
via carriers such as American Airlines.

[DulceDecorum]

27. The flight was not cancelled

It was never scheduled.
Nobody could book their tickets on it
because
IT SIMPLY DID NOT EXIST.

"Yesterday upon the stair I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today.
I wish that man would go away."
Hughes Mearns (1875-1965)

Must be talking about one of them thar Flight 11 or Flight 77 passengers.

[RH]

31. Flight 77

was a regular flight.

Scheduled to fly every day, year after year.

[DulceDecorum]

33. Prove it.

Go on then, show us some BTS data.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Make7]

11. Let me get this straight.

1) The only credible source for passenger names is the airline.
2) The airline withheld some names as requested by their families.
3) News agencies used other, non-credible sources (see 1), to attempt to complete the lists.
4) The information from non-credible sources doesn't match with 100% accuracy.

Therefore the government is lying, American Airlines Flight 11 never hit the building.
______________

OR...

A) There is video footage of a plane crashing into the North Tower.
B) Positive identification has been made of remains of 33 victims on American Airlines Flight 11 at the World Trade Center site. (New York Daily News - 9/11/02)

American Airlines Flight 11 did hit the building.

-Make7

[RH]

12. It really is amazing, isn't it,

that on the one hand it is blithely supposed that just about anything may be faked, and on a grand scale, with thousands of people criminally involved in a mass murder consipiracy, with a faked autopsy and faked witnesses, not to mention faked aircraft, and on the other hand Holmgren blithely says that "the only credible source for obtaining this information is the airline itself, or authorities and media to which the airline makes it available."

What a strangely inconsistent mixture of blind faith and rampant paranoia! If some of the relatives were not keen to be in the public eye who is to blame them? If he'd had their names up front on a photocopy he'd be going around to try to besmirch them just the same.

As I understand it the usual protocol with any sort of disaster, as a matter of simple respect and courtesy, is not to give names to the press before friends and relatives are informed. The trouble then is that the priority for the press is rather to beat each other to the scoop, so they look for ways to cut corners and then, surprise surprise, they get it wrong and with no effort to correct themselves afterwards, in much the same fashion as Holmgren. No respect. No courtesy. No responsibility. No common sense. Poor research. He never even attempts to actually communicate with the people he impugns so viciously.

[Make7]

15. Poor research is right.

My favorite "case" he makes is the following:

Quote: "A person named on every other list as Antonio Montoya has become Antonio Jesus Montoya Valdes." - Gerard Holmgren

Quote: "Most lists have Antonio Montoya but one has Antonio Montoya Valdes." - Gerard Holmgren

He points this out, wondering if this is the same person. I have to admit that one made me laugh out loud. Does he know nothing about Latin American surnames? Does he not know how to research a simple thing like someone's name? Maybe a list of names is not what he should be concentrating on if he doesn't understand how they work. He probably thinks that John Kennedy, John F. Kennedy, and John Fitzgerald Kennedy are three different people.

:) Make7

[DulceDecorum]

24. RE: double barreled surnames.

So, Gerard Holmgren is amusing because he points out that:
"Most lists have Antonio Montoya but one has Antonio Montoya Valdes."

You must have cracked several ribs laughing at the the manner in which the FBI messed up
with the Arab names
when they were already written down on the tickets and credit cards and driver's licenses.

Ohohohoho.
Ameer Bukhari turned out to be Abdul Rahman Al-Omari.
Whoops,
make that Abdulaziz al Omari.
Oh what the heck,
just send Joseph Salvati back to prison for another 30+ years.
I am sure he was somewhere near Boston on the day those planes were hijacked.

[Make7]

37. Are you saying....

that Antonio Montoya and Antonio Montoya Valdes are not two different versions the same name?

-Make7

[DulceDecorum]

40. I am saying

that this gang cannot shoot straight.

Is there a difference between Ann Margaret
and Ann Margaret Carrozza?

[Make7]

41. Ah, then you agree that it is not two different people.

Quote: "Is there a difference between Ann Margaret and Ann Margaret Carrozza?" - DulceDecorum

Why? Were they on AA Flight 11 too?

:) Make7

[John Doe II]

49. Quote from the article

The quote is
"A person named on every other list as Antonio Montoya has become Antonio Jesus Montoya Valdes."

Nowhere does Holmgren say that theses are two different perons!
Ne only notes that the names changed.
And I think this is worth mentioning as only ONE version of the name of this person will figure on the passenger manifest. It doesn't matter if he has 100 different middle names.
So, even this case still bears a question.
But the real questions concerning the manifest haven't been answered at all in this thread yet!

[Woody Box]

16. Gerald Holmgren

This article is boring and way too voluminous for the conveyed substance. Holmgren is not working on fertile ground here.

[DulceDecorum]

23. RE: the only credible source

Since the plane was unable to send the ACARS data to the BTS,
which is something that is highly computerized and happens automatically,
then how the bloody blazes did the plane manage to send the airline passenger manifest data?

[RH]

30. According to what

does any data proceed directly from an aircraft to BTS?

Where did you get that from?

[DulceDecorum]

34. According to the 911 Commission

Ballinger contacted all his flights to warn them. But United Flight 175 "was not acting appropriately."
He asked Flight 175 to respond. The pilot didn't reply and Ballinger was forced to conclude he'd been compromised and that he was rogue.
By now, the situation was terribly different from previous hijackings Ballinger had handled. In two hours, he sent 122 messages.
"I was like screaming on the keyboard. I think I talked to two flights visually. The rest was all banging out short messages," he said.
Realizing what was going on, he sent all his airplanes one message: "Beware of cockpit intrusion."
"93 called me back and says, 'Hi, Ed. Confirmed.'æ"
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/il10_kirk/news040414_flight.html

The report said it was "quite possible" that the hijacker flying the plane, Ziad Jarrah, knew that the attack on the World Trade Center had succeeded; he could, for example, have read the text messages intended for Captain Dahl.
"It might not have occurred to him that they were certain to learn what had happened in New York, thereby defeating his attempts at deception," the report said.
Of the 33 passengers on the plane who were not hijackers, at least 10, and two crew members, spoke to people on the ground.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/22/politics/22CND-FLIG.html?ex=1102395600&en=621a0666ede92ffb&ei=5070&oref=login&hp

ARINC is the company behind the messaging system.

Text messages warning the cockpit of Flight 93 were sent to the aircraft by Ed Ballinger at 9:24.
See UAL record, Ed Ballinger's ACARS log, Sept. 11, 2001.

[RH]

43. The question was about the BTS database.

Why do you think that any data would proceed directly from an aircraft to BTS?

Where did you get that from?

[DulceDecorum]

54. RH disses the 911 Commission.

Go read up on ACARS.

[RH]

56. Surprise, surprise, dulcedecorum continues to dodge the question.

According to what does any data proceed directly from an aircraft to BTS?

Where did you get that from?

[DulceDecorum]

59. Truth Suppression Technique Number 9 & Number 17

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can "argue" with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.
http://www.universalway.org/Foreign/truthsuppression.html

Different Systems for Recording Flight Arrival Data
In fulfilling DOT's data reporting requirements,
the air carriers use
a combination of electronic and manual systems for collecting flight data.
Those using an electronic system rely on
the Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS).4
ACARS is an air/ground satellite communication network
that receives transmissions from an aircraft's onboard computer system,
which is then transmitted to the air carriers' host computer.
The system, which is maintained by Aeronautical Radio Incorporated,
costs about $60,000 per aircraft to install.
Beyond recording arrival times,
ACARS supports a number of air traffic control
and operational requirements of the participating air carriers.
http://www.oig.dot.gov/show_txt.php?id=315

The airlines reporting to the BTS via ACARS:
American, Continental, Northwest, United, US Airways.
Want more?
Go Google.

RH,
how did the data get from the United Airlines planes to the BTS?
THAT link was working,
and,since BOTH
United Airlines and American Airlines use ACARS,
you certainly have some 'splaining to do.

How come American Airlines is unable
TO THIS VERY DAY
to tell us what transpired with Flight 11 and Flight 77 on September 11, 2001?

[Abe Linkman]

64. ASCE Report? Or, "You Go Uruguay, I'll Go Mine".

Although it does seem to have some value to certain OCT supporters, I can't find anything in it about ACARS. However, it's still a good thing to cite every now and again...especially as a Truth Suppression/Digression/"Hey- Look over there" technique when faced with pesky WHERDY GO/HOWDY GET THERE questions.

[RH]

67. The ASCE Report

is a useful source of information.

I have yet to see Abe Linkman provide any useful information.

I have not even seen any attempt to refute anything within the ASCE report.

The incessant heckling is yet more tedious than ever before.

[Abe Linkman]

79. WHERDY GO? You know? Told us, then.

I have yet to see anything more than the musings of someone seemingly reeling from the effects of a curious, enervating "jungle" fever...when it comes to providing any useful information regarding the many
WHERDY GO questions which RH is unable or unwilling to answer, and I have yet to see anything within the ASCE report which provides anything more useful that the incessant heckling of a former traveling salesman for the Red Goose Shoe Company now reduced to a mere shadow of a "YES, It's The Benny Hill Show" character.

Thank you, General Diehl. "There wasn't a piece of the jet to be seen anywhere". Imagine that.

[RH]

86. There was no wreckage anywhere on the Wednesday

because the day before it had already been cleared up.

I would have thought that explanation, being perfectly verifiable, was a useful contribution.

Except that is, perhaps, for a dedicated desire to mislead. I can think of no other reason to be so ignorant of the fact.

[DulceDecorum]

98. THE NEXT DAY,

the Pentagon was back in business. We took a hit but no one wavered. Our nation needed us.
We went to see firsthand the damage, the aftermath of this tragedy. No one could believe the catastrophic damage to the Pentagon - it was horrible. A whole "wedge" had collapsed; the aircraft had penetrated about three of the five "rings" of the building. There wasn't a single piece of the jet to be seen anywhere.
Everyone prayed and prayed. We wanted to start digging and help the search for survivors.
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123004570

THE PENTAGON CALLED SERVICEMASTER CLEAN AT 11:30 a.m. ON THE 11th. The ServiceMaster Recovery Management staff, dedicated to catastrophic disaster mitigation and restoration, was on the move by noon, and was at the Pentagon on September 12th. At 8:30 a.m. that day, a crew of 50 ServiceMaster Clean technicians mustered in the Pentagon's western parking lot.
http://www.servicemasterclean.com/pentagon/

What do the United States Pentagon building,
a truck full of rotting scallop guts,
and a mansion where a corpse had decomposed for three months
have in common?
<snip>
In the case of the Pentagon, ServiceMaster was called in shortly after the tragic events of September 11. Jeff C. Coulter, vice president for disaster restoration at ServiceMaster, remembers that day all too well. Rescue efforts, he says, were of paramount importance, but an immediate effort to clean up the huge Pentagon building, which houses the Department of Defense and Armed Forces, ran a close second.
http://www.roughnotes.com/rnmagazine/2004/march04/03p110.htm

The damage to the building went beyond the crash site. Smoke and soot from the jet fuel traveled through the corridors covering everything from furniture to walls to floors to equipment.
But with the nation under attack, the Pentagon, the headquarters for the U.S. Department of Defense, could not shut down and regroup.
“We basically had to get back in business,” said Darryl O. Diggs, Pentagon assistant services program manager. It was Diggs’s responsibility to oversee the cleaning of the building, which, with civilian and military personnel and visitors, welcomes 30,000 to 40,000 people a day.
About one-fifth of the approximately 4 million-square-foot building was damaged by the airplane.
That was the only section ServiceMaster Clean crews didn’t clean.
They cleaned everything.
“We took light fixtures out and apart and cleaned them,” said Chris Caldwell, the Paris, Tenn., franchisee who supervised cleaning crews.
They cleaned computers with toothpicks, digging at soot and dirt trapped in keyboards.
They cleaned in areas where classified documents and other sensitive information had to be concealed from workers.
http://www.servicemasterclean.com/cd/pentagon.asp

We believe ServiceMaster Clean was contacted in the aftermath of this crisis, versus a competitor, because of our nationwide name awareness and recognition as a leader in disaster restoration. In addition to this awareness, several franchise owners in the area have established excellent reputations for restoration work in various government facilities including the CIA, White House, Fort Meyer Army Base and the Pentagon itself. The technicians that have performed this type of government work in the past understand the security issues facing them.
With such a dramatic backdrop, the task of beginning a job this size might overwhelm some in Brad's position. He, however, brought experience and a tremendous support team of franchise owners, technicians and staff to the table. Brad was a key player in organizing and leading the clean-up efforts at the first terrorist bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993. He also performed work at a Patriot Missile Guidance System Research and Development plant in 1991 during Desert Storm. Simply put, he was prepared for this situation.
Brad quickly returned the Pentagon's call LATE TUESDAY MORNING. Understanding the sensitive security issues surrounding work after a terrorist act, coupled with a top security facility such as the Pentagon, Brad knew what issues needed to be addressed and assured his contact that ServiceMaster Clean has a franchise network capable of producing trained staff instead of using temporary labor.
The Pentagon contact was definitely impressed not only with his track record and sensitivity to security issues, but also with the ServiceMaster Clean capabilities. It was a perfect fit of leadership experience with local response time. We secured a work authorization form before Brad's departure for the job site.
http://www.clean-in-a-wink.com/pentagon/pentagon_story.htm

When any tragedy occurs, immediate response is cruicial to a successful recovery. From 1200 businesses all over North America, ServiceMaster Clean reacts quickly to disasters within any community. We respond within 30 minutes to the customer's initial call. WITHING 2 HOURS, a service team is on-site to initiate emergency damage mitigation of the property.
http://merced.unclewebster.com/lc/bus/1350/disasterpage.shtml

Perhaps ServiceMaster Clean picked up that entire jet
collected the mush
and replaced the divots back into the Incredible PentaLawn 2000.
But it cost the taxpayers.

WASHINGTON, D.C. — A report issued by the Center for Public Integrity Wednesday reveals that NO-BIDS CONTRACTS WORTH $1 billion HAVE ACCOUNTED FOR FOR MORE THAN 40 PERCENT OF PENTAGON JANITORIAL AND CUSTODIAL CONTRACTING SINCE 1998.
Larry Makinson, senior fellow, Center for Public Integrity, said that, in total, THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT HAS SPENT $2.3 billion ON JANITORIAL AND CUSTODIAL SERVICES IN THE PAST SIX YEARS, but 46 percent of the contracts did not receive bids.
Click here for a spreadsheet from the Center that breaks down the janitorial and custodial contracts issued in that time frame.
http://www.cmmonline.com/news.asp?N_ID=50518&mode=4

NO WONDER WE CAN'T FIND THE DAMN PLANE.

ON WEDNESDAY, as our yellow vans entered the Pentagon gates, they were spotted by Peter Jennings of ABC News. He announced our arrival to the nation, signifying that the Pentagon was wasting no time in returning to the business at hand. Initially, there were close to 40 technicians from local offices who started the cleaning process. Meanwhile, another 200 technicians were on their way. Two 10-hour shifts worked feverishly to get the job underway as quickly as possible.
http://www.clean-in-a-wink.com/pentagon/pentagon_story.htm

RH says:
There was no wreckage anywhere on the Wednesday
because the day before it had already been cleared up.

You just might be right, RH, you just might be right.

http://sq7.org/contest/2-submit/J-Bond.
And if you put the
jpg
at the end of that URL,
you just might see just how serious the situation is.
(You might have to click on the image, to make it bigger.)

[Make7]

38. From the article:

Quote: "But the only credible, official source for such information is the airline passenger list, and the only credible source for obtaining this information is the airline itself, or authorities and media to which the airline makes it available." - Gerard Holmgren

-Make7

[DulceDecorum]

39. "But the only credible,

source for such information is the airline passenger list, and the only credible source for obtaining this information is the airline itself, or authorities and media to which the airline makes it available."
-- Gerard Holmgren

Let us review the manner in which passenger lists are generated.

A flight is scheduled.
People buy tickets.
People board the plane.
The doors are closed.
All people aboard the plane are counted, identified, and accounted for.
This includes crew, and non-ticketed personnel.
A list of persons aboard the plane is recorded as the official passenger manifest.
At some point after the flight pushes back from the gate,
the list is sent via ACARS to the airline HQ and probably also the BTS.

HOW did Flight 11 or Flight 77 achieve a passenger manifest?

The flight was NOT scheduled.
The flight has no wheels off time.
And now some excerpts from the 911 Commission Report.
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Notes.htm

4. Flight 11 pushed back from Gate 32 in Terminal B at 7:40. See AAL response to the Commission's February 3, 2004, requests, Mar. 15, 2004.

9. See TSA report, "Selectee Status of September 11th Hijackers," undated. For boarding and seating information, see AAL record, SABRE information on Flight 11, Sept. 11, 2001.These boarding times from the American system are approximate only; for Flight 11, they indicated that some passengers "boarded" after the aircraft had pushed back from the gate. See AAL response to the Commission's February 3, 2004, requests, Mar. 15, 2004.

Care to explain
HOW
one boards an aircraft that has already pushed back from the gate?
Did Scotty beam them up?
No?
OK then, lets have a look at Flight 77.

11.The Hazmis checked in at 7:29; the airline has not yet been able to confirm the time of Hanjour's check-in. However, it had to have taken place by 7:35, when he appears on the checkpoint videotape. See AAL record, SABRE information for Flight 77, Sept. 11, 2001; AAL response to the Commission's February 3, 2004, requests, Mar. 15, 2004; Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority videotape, Dulles main terminal checkpoints, Sept. 11, 2001.

66. .......The FAA knew or strongly suspected that Flight 11 was a hijacking 11 minutes after it was taken over; Flight 175, 9 minutes after it was taken over. There is no evidence to indicate that the FAA recognized Flight 77 as a hijacking until it crashed into the Pentagon.

OK, so some dude walks past a camera and
THAT'S IT??
....the airline has not yet been able to confirm the time of Hanjour's check-in.

"But the only credible, official source for such information is the airline passenger list, and the only credible source for obtaining this information is the airline itself, or authorities and media to which the airline makes it available."
-- Gerard Holmgren

Wotcha got?
I don't see nufink.

"There wasn't a single piece of the jet to be seen anywhere."
-- Brigadier General Arthur F. "Chip" Diehl III

[Make7]

42. facial recognition

Quote: "Let us review the manner in which passenger lists are generated.

A flight is scheduled.
People buy tickets.
People board the plane.
The doors are closed.
All people aboard the plane are counted, identified, and accounted for.
This includes crew, and non-ticketed personnel.
A list of persons aboard the plane is recorded as the official passenger manifest.
At some point after the flight pushes back from the gate,
the list is sent via ACARS to the airline HQ and probably also the BTS." - DulceDecorum
__________

Not once, in all the hundred or so times I've flown, have I been asked for ID on board the plane. How did they indentify me? I have never seen anyone comparing my face to a picture. Do they use some kind of facial recognition camera system? They must be indentifying me on the plane somehow, I keep getting frequent flier miles.

-Make7

[DulceDecorum]

57. Suzy Chapstick

also reports not being hassled at airports ever since Ann Coulter won the
The “insanity runs in my family. It practically gallops” Award
http://www.makethemaccountable.com/podvin/media/020324_Crappys.htm

Incidentally,
were you EVER asked for ID BEFORE you boarded the plane?
A lot of that stuff goes on just before you actually get on the plane.
Just ask the nearest TSA guy whether the airline crews EVER strip-search ANYONE.

[RH]

44. Flight 77 was scheduled.

It is recorded in the BTS database as a scheduled flight.

People did buy tickets.

People boarded the plane.

[DulceDecorum]

58. BS and the BTS

Results of Searching Detailed Statistics

"Departure Statistic(s):Scheduled Departure Time,Actual Departure Time,Scheduled Elapsed Time,Actual Elapsed Time,Departure Delay,Wheels-off Time,Taxi-out Time"

"Airport(s):IAD"
"Airline(s):AA"
"Month(s):September"
"Day(s):11"
"Year(s):2001"

"Airport: Washington, DC-Washington Dulles International (IAD)"

Carrier Code, AA,
Date (MM/DD/YYYY), 09/11/2001,
Flight Number, 0077,
Tail Number, UNKNOW,
Destination Airport, LAX,
Scheduled Departure Time , 8:10,
Actual Departure Time , 0:00,
Scheduled Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0326,
Actual Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0000,
Departure Delay (Minutes), 0,
Wheels-off Time , 0:00,
Taxi-out Time (Minutes) 0000

RH says:
It is recorded in the BTS database as a scheduled flight.
People did buy tickets.
People boarded the plane.

They may have purchased tickets
and they may even have boarded a plane,
BUT IT NEVER TOOK OFF.

They were scammed.

[RH]

66. You scam yourself.

The BTS disclaimer and their comment were already pointed out.

[DulceDecorum]

71. RH, please explain this BTS data on Flight 77

Results of Searching Detailed Statistics

"Departure Statistic(s):Scheduled Departure Time,Actual Departure Time,Scheduled Elapsed Time,Actual Elapsed Time,Departure Delay,Wheels-off Time,Taxi-out Time"

"Airport(s):IAD"
"Airline(s):AA"
"Month(s):September"
"Day(s):11"
"Year(s):2001"

"Airport: Washington, DC-Washington Dulles International (IAD)"

Carrier Code, AA,
Date (MM/DD/YYYY), 09/11/2001,
Flight Number, 0077,
Tail Number, UNKNOW,
Destination Airport, LAX,
Scheduled Departure Time , 8:10,
Actual Departure Time , 0:00,
Scheduled Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0326,
Actual Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0000,
Departure Delay (Minutes), 0,
Wheels-off Time , 0:00,
Taxi-out Time (Minutes) 0000

[RH]

72. On September 11, 2001,

American Airlines Flight #11 and #77 and United Airlines #93 and #175 were hijacked by terrorists. Therefore, on-time statistics are not available for these flights.

[DulceDecorum]

73. BTS on-time statistics ARE available for Flight #93

On September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight #11 and #77 and United Airlines #93 and #175 were hijacked by terrorists. Therefore, on-time statistics are not available for these flights.


"Airport: Newark, NJ-Newark Liberty International (EWR)"
Carrier Code, UA,
Date (MM/DD/YYYY), 09/11/2001,
Flight Number, 0093,
Tail Number, N591UA,
Destination Airport, SFO,
Scheduled Departure Time , 8:00,
Actual Departure Time , 8:01,
Scheduled Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0374,
Actual Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0000,
Departure Delay (Minutes), 1,
Wheels-off Time , 8:28,
Taxi-out Time (Minutes) 0027

RH claims:
On September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight #11 and #77 and United Airlines #93 and #175 were hijacked by terrorists. Therefore, on-time statistics are not available for these flights.

Then what the heck are those?

[RH]

76. The actual elapsed time for #93

is apparently not available.

[DulceDecorum]

81. Tee hee

[RH]

85. So

the aircraft presumably got no further than the end of the runway.

Is that how your logic works?

[DulceDecorum]

92. ...was the plane ever even on the runway?

RH says:
So, the aircraft presumably got no further than the end of the runway.
Is that how your logic works?

Results of Searching Detailed Statistics
"Airport(s):IAD"
"Airline(s):AA"
"Month(s):September"
"Day(s):11"
"Year(s):2001"
"Airport: Washington, DC-Washington Dulles International (IAD)"

Carrier Code, AA,
Date (MM/DD/YYYY), 09/11/2001,
Flight Number, 0077,
Tail Number, UNKNOW,
Destination Airport, LAX,
Scheduled Departure Time , 8:10,
Actual Departure Time , 0:00,
Scheduled Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0326,
Actual Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0000,
Departure Delay (Minutes), 0,
Wheels-off Time , 0:00,
Taxi-out Time (Minutes) 0000

RH,
look at the taxi out time.
Now, tell me,
how many minutes did the plane take to reach the end of the runway?
What does YOUR logic tell you?

Speak up man,
answer the question!!

RH, tell us,
once and for all,
At what time did the plane leave the gate?
Did the plane experience any delays?
At what time did the wheels lift off from the runway?
What is the tail number of this plane?

HINT:
The answers have been provided.
They are in this post.
Just look above this line.

RH,
this plane only recently appeared on the BTS database.
For almost THREE YEARS
there was absolutely no record of such a flight ever having taken place.
The data above serves only to confirm this --
but only to the overwhelming majority of us.

[RH]

97. Yes, it was on the runway.

Do yourself a favor.

Respect the BTS disclaimer:

BTS makes no claims, promises or guarantees about the accuracy, completeness, or adequacy of the contents of this website and expressly disclaims liability for errors and omissions in the contents of this website. No warranty of any kind, implied, expressed or statutory, including but not limited to the warranties of non-infringement of third party rights, title, merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose and freedom from computer virus, is given with respect to the contents of this website or its hyperlinks to other Internet resources.

http://www.bts.gov/disclaimer.html

[DulceDecorum]

100. Sez you

and the BTS says different.

Do yourself a favor.
Show some respect for Section 111 of Title 49.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+49USC111

The BTS is charged with:

(1) Compiling transportation statistics.-Compiling, analyzing, and publishing a comprehensive set of transportation statistics to provide timely summaries and totals (including industrywide aggregates and multiyear averages) of transportation related information. .......
(C) ensure that data collected under this subsection is controlled for accuracy and disseminated to the States and other interested parties.

Please stop disrespecting the hard-working people
who have dedicated themselves to collecting, processing and disseminating BTS data.

And give us some thing other than your opinion
to back up your assertion that Flight 77 ever made it onto the runway.

P.S.
We can all see that you did not answer a single one
of the questions you were asked.
Even when the answers were provided to you.
:cry:

[DulceDecorum]

74. BTS on-time statistics ARE available for Flight #175

On September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight #11 and #77 and United Airlines #93 and #175 were hijacked by terrorists. Therefore, on-time statistics are not available for these flights.

"Airport: Boston, MA-Logan International (BOS)"
Carrier Code, UA,
Date (MM/DD/YYYY), 09/11/2001,
Flight Number, 0175,
Tail Number, N612UA,
Destination Airport, LAX,
Scheduled Departure Time , 8:00,
Actual Departure Time , 7:58,
Scheduled Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0376,
Actual Elapsed Time (Minutes), 0000,
Departure Delay (Minutes), -2,
Wheels-off Time , 8:23,
Taxi-out Time (Minutes) 0025

RH claims:
On September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight #11 and #77 and United Airlines #93 and #175 were hijacked by terrorists. Therefore, on-time statistics are not available for these flights.

Please tell us
HOW
the United Airlines flight out of Boston
HAPPENS TO HAVE BTS statistics
and yet
the American Airlines flight out of Boston
which left a few minutes EARLIER
DOES NOT HAVE BTS statistics.

[RH]

78. The actual elapsed time for #175

is apparently not available.

[DulceDecorum]

82. Bwa

hahaha

[John Doe II]

50. Amazing

Nobody yet has tried to answer the basic questions of this article!
As I admit it's long I'll opy it's summary here and


I'll be very happy if someone might come forward and explain why almost every different media account present different flight manifests???



Here is a summary of the anomalies between the lists.

Collectively, these sources list the names of 95 alleged innocents.

CNN lists 87 names, which should be a complete list ,but indicates that the list is incomplete. The 8 left out are Vamsikrishna, Roux, Iskander,Jalbert, Tu,Weems,Ward and Booms.

USAT lists 86 names, citing this as a "partial list", Those missing are Caplin, Jalbert, Jude Larson, Natalie Larson, Roux, Tu,Weems,Ward and Iskander.

NBC lists 87 names. Its the same as USAT with the addition of Iskander, but changes Peter Hashem to Peter el-Hachem.

PBS is identical to NBC.

The Boston daily lists 89 innocents and describes it as a a partial list. Those missing are Iskander,Vamsikrishna, Tu , Weems,Ward and Booms. It is the only list to name Jalbert.

A year later it lists 87 names, changing Heath Smith to Heather Smith, Hashem to el-Hachem , and losing Caplin, the two Larsons, Jalbert and Roux for Iskander, Vamsikrishna.and Booms.

The Washington Post published a "partial list" containing 89 names. Those missing are Iskander,Vamsikrishna, Jalbert , Tu , Weems and Ward .

The "we will never forget" website lists 88 names. Those missing are Vamsrikrishna, Jalbert, Booms, Tu,Weems,Ward and Roux.

The AA11 memorial website lists 90 names and claims 95 aboard. The missing names are Vamsikrishna, Tu, Weems,Ward and Jalbert.

Wikipedia claims a summation of 93 aboard, but lists only 92 names (including hijackers).It is the only site to list Lana Tu. Those missing are Iskander, Caplin, the two Larsons, Jalbert,Weems,Ward and Roux. This makes it the same as the USAT list with the addition of Tu or put another way - the same as the NBC and PBS lists except that Tu is in for Isaknder.

The American Memorials/Obituary site lists 90 names and is the only list to name Weems and Ward. It leaves out Tu, Jalbert,Vamsikrishna, Roux and Booms.

Several sources claim that AA released 77 (or 75) names on Sept 12, but the Washington Post published 89 names the same day, and the Boston Daily published 89 - but not the same 89 - the day after, while Fox News was still claiming that only 81 names were confirmed a week later.

We still can't rule out the possibility that Caplin/Kaplan is a genuine co-incidence, but suspicion is justified, especially as Caplin is one of the frequently missing names. Some lists have Peter el-Hachem, others Peter Hashem. Some lists have Heather Smith and others Heath Smith. Most lists have Antonio Montoya but one has Antonio Montoya Valdes.

Since the media which sells us the official story universally agrees that there were 92 aboard - 87 innocents and 5 hijackers, then 8 of these names (although we can't yet specify which 8 ) must be fictitious. If 8 are confirmed as fictitious, then we are perfectly entitled to speculate with some validity that any number of the 95 could be fictitious.

What's even more curious is that four of these names also appear on the lists for UA 175, alleged to have hit the Sth Tower of the WTC at 9.03. Jalbert ,Roux, Ward and Weems.

[RH]

51. The people responsible

for the media accounts are the people who published the material.

Ask them.

If you're not asking them it is silly to complain that you dont know.

[DulceDecorum]

62. The people responsible for the media accounts

are to be found in the Office of Strategic Influence.
Asking them anything is BEYOND silly.
Read what the psyops at CNN have to say:

Although "information deception" -- deliberately spreading false or misleading information -- is a part of information warfare policy and doctrine, the Pentagon has NO SPECIFIC PLANS to undertake deceptive operations using the international news media, the official said.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/02/19/gen.strategic.influence/

"If you liked the lie about the murder of Kuwaiti babies after Iraq's invasion of the oil-rich emirate in 1990, you'll love the (OSI)," UPI wrote.
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Office_of_Strategic_Influence

Strategic Influence Office 'Closed Down,' Says Rumsfeld
DoD has performed information operations missions targeted to Afghans, Rumsfeld noted, adding, "We will continue to do that in the future." The department defines information operations as "actions taken to affect adversary information and information systems while defending one's own information and information systems."
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Feb2002/n02262002_200202263.html

Nice quotation marks, fellas.
They'll never pick up on that one.
Plus it was the only way we could 'tell the truth.'
wink wink

[RH]

69. The people responsible

for the media accounts are the people who published the material.

[DulceDecorum]

75. That lets Judith Miller, Novakula AND Jayson Blair

off the hook.

RH says:
The people responsible for the media accounts are the people who published the material.

[RH]

77. Nothing novel or controversial about it.

If you sue for libel you sue the publisher.

[John Doe II]

90. Seven accounts in the media and six differnt lists

I take it your answer is either you don't have any clue yourself how this can happen or that you don't bother.

Seven accounts in the media and six different lists (leaving aside all the other lists Homgren analyzed). All in all 95 passengers and crew members listed although only 87 are supposed to have been aboard. And still no question?
If I add to this the completely unexplainable suspicion against four innocent hijackers and the lack of interest to match the DNA of the hijackers they one can only wonder what kind of investigation this is supposed to be and if the passenger manifests are sme sort of magic stuff. Everybody looking at them sees different names ...

OK Simple question:
How come that on the different lists of mainstream media accounts there are 8 names too much (so forgot everything about courtesy towards the familys. We don't have too few but too many names?
Any idea? Any suggestion?

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spooked911]

93. So how many passengers were on AA11?

and do you have anything useful to add here besides skepticism?

[RH]

96. Here is the published manifest

seat by seat:

[DulceDecorum]

101. Why do you regard this particular manifest

as being more accurate than the others?

[John Doe II]

105. "Which planet were you from?"

Sigh.
RH, I don't know how many times I politely have asked you from refraining make personal comments??!!
:shrug:

May I remind you that you reproached me that just once in a while I shall answer a question. And though I repeatedly asked you which question I haven't answered yet you still didn't bother to point just one out. I'm afraid that speaks for itself: as your constant refusal to take up Bukhari and the DNA. But anyway.

Let's talk about facts.

Me: member of plant phantasy, has a question for you, member of planet reality. And please enlighten me.

You write that the fact that we have (with one exception) only different accounts of the flight manifests in the media and 8 names too much, would be explained by the journalists eagerness to compete "instead of waiting patiently".
You implpy two things here:

1. That journalists do invent names. I might understand that there is one case of a well known New York Times journalists but that basically every media account has one name that is not mentioned in other avccounts?? That basically every journalist working on it had the appetite to invent a name???
May I inquire what the editor would have done with such a journalist if a person called and said "Hey, I'm still alive. WTF do I do on your victim list?"
But according to planet reality all journalist have a desire to invent names and not to try and compete with having more facts surrounding 911 than the very unlikely field of competition as a flight manifest?! Can you please show one case where it happened on planet reality already that on something as objective as a passenger manifest almost all media accounts invent names????


2. You imply that they should have waited patiently. Good. I'd be happy to agree only I wonder: Wait what for???
Do you have any definte version of the passenger manifest? Well? Then please show it!
Or shall I asked in a different way:

What are the 92 correct names and what are the 8 invented names?
Any idea?
Did US Army Sergeant Waleed Iskander board AA 11?
What's about the other seven?

Please, Scotty beam me up into reality!

And please Scotty, how come the FBI got it as wrong as all the journalists and invented 4 hijackers?????

[MrSammo1]

103. Did you know?

that Ellen Mariani and her lawyer Phil Berg claimed that she was the only relative of all the passengers that died on Flight 175?

Holy Pregnant Jets Batman!

Listen.....
http://www.blackopradio.com/black156a.ram


http://www.blackopradio.com/black156b.ram

[Lithos]

107. Locking

This thread has degenerated into personalities...

Lithos
9/11 Moderator
Democratic Underground