Flight deck door remained closed?

[k-robjoe]

"NTSB data: Flight deck door remained closed on AA77: hijacking "impossible" "

http://www.911blogger.com/node/21980

[icee2]

1. No surprise. AA77 wasn't scheduled to fly & didn't. n/t

[KDLarsen]

3. Not the BTS nonsense again? n/t

[Rosa Luxemburg]

5. yes

[Bolo Boffin]

6. no n/t

[defendandprotect]

54. And neither was AA11 scheduled to fly & didn't . . .

[SDuderstadt]

55. For the last fucking time, D&P...

the BTS is NOT a schedule.

[OnTheOtherHand]

56. with due respect...

I can't imagine why this would be the last time.

[KDLarsen]

2. Or..

The FDR wasn't recording the particular data. Given that it's showing that the cockpit door was closed for each of the previous 12 flights (including trans-con runs, where you'd imagine the pilots might have had the FAs come up with some food and/or drinks), I'm leaning towards the latter.

[Bolo Boffin]

4. Come on. Maybe they had those astronaut diapers.

Yeah, I know, I stole that from JREF.

[icee2]

7. So THAT'S where you get those ideas. From a magician:

Someone trained in the arts of deception and fooling people.

BTW, still waiting for proof that 77 was scheduled to fly on 9/11. You're gonna need all the magician's tricks you can find to
fool informed people here that 77 ever left the ground on 9/11. Don't you even have some fake footage showing alleged (sim) passengers at Dulles? Credit card records? Cancelled checks for ticket purchases? ANYTHING other than unverifiable claims from
sim passengers' families?

I realize you aren't in a position to change your mind right now, but that could change. If it were to happen, you'd be welcomed
to the Truth side - though some people might first feel more comfortable if some heartfelt apologies were offered. It would be a long list, but hey, you know that.

[Bolo Boffin]

8. You're an amusing fellow.

Just one confirmation out of all that silliness you posted: when you say "sim passengers' families", do you mean to express that the passengers on 9/11 are not real, but were simulated?

[icee2]

9. Yer silly n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

10. Simple question, really. When you say "sim passengers", are you indeed alleging

that there were no passengers on 9/11? That they were simulated people, not real people?

[icee2]

11. You are alleging that FL 77 was a scheduled flight on 9/11...

but according to AA, it wasn't. I believe AA. They have credibility that a biased magician-influenced JREFer lacks.

[KDLarsen]

12. Oh really?

Could you present us with a link to AA's flight schedules in September 2001, or a statement where American Airlines explains that flight 77 was not scheduled to fly on 9/11?

[icee2]

13. Why do you ask? Sounds like you believe otherwise.

If so, could you present us with a link to AA's flight schedules in September 2001, or a statement where American Airlines explains that flight 77 WAS scheduled to fly on 9/11?

[KDLarsen]

14. You're the one making a claim

You present the evidence. Because the only source I've seen of that claim, is from the BTS which isn't a timetable.

[icee2]

16. The OCT says 77 WAS a scheduled flight, but there's no proof...

it was and the BTS records tend to back that up. (no lift-off time, no tail number listed etc.)

AA issued a statement in which it said that 77 wasn't a scheduled flight and if you want to do a little research, it shouldn't be
hard to find. I don't recall offhand where I first read it and I don't intend to spend any time looking for it, because you wouldn't accept it anyhow.

You do agree that the OCT (no matter how you try to parse the definition of "OCT") posits that 77 WAS scheduled and DID fly on
9/11, correct? Can you prove it? Show us.

[Bolo Boffin]

20. "AA issued a statement in which it said that 77 wasn't a scheduled flight"

100% bullshit. They never, ever did such a thing.

[KDLarsen]

21. Sigh

The BTS is not a timetable.

I've had a google, and the only thing that comes up on this is from other conspiracy nutjobs.

And AA certainly haven't issued a statement saying 77 wasn't scheduled. Unless you're thinking about the guy that edited the Wikipedia page on American Airlines, while using the public WiFi at Dallas-Fort Worth airport, sending twoofers into a tail spin over what they thought was someone from American Airlines finally seeing the twoof.

[icee2]

26. Who told you that the BTS is a timetable?

Some of you Truth Critics can come up with mighty strange ways to try and deflect attention from reality.

[Bolo Boffin]

29. Here's what the BTS told me when I did a search for Flight 77.

On September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight #11 and #77 and United Airlines #93 and #175 were hijacked by terrorists. Therefore, these flights are not included in the on-time summary statistics.

So now I have the choice of believing your interpretation of the BTS data, which means that all the family members are lying sods, or I can believe BTS' own interpretation of their data, which means the family members are not liars.

Decisions, decisions.

[icee2]

32. That's why your teammate keeps dissing the BTS.

It's worthless as evidence that 77 was scheduled for 9/11. Maybe the perps will forge some kind of records (ticket purchases on credit cards, billing statements, SOMETHING, ANYTHING so that TCs will be able to say, "see, here's some actual evidence. look at the images
of the passengers boarding the flight. and here's a record of ticket purchases - from passengers AND AA")

They manufacture so much other "evidence", why not for 77?

[Bolo Boffin]

34. I don't have a "teammate" here. Any further suggestion of such is an attack under DU rules.

And I see that you've already gotten your excuse ready in case other evidence of Flight 77 on September 11 was presented to you:

"It's been forged."

You are completely unreachable here. Any actual avenue of proof, you've short-circuited. Your fantasy about Flight 77's non-existence is completely unfalsifiable. This is why I rarely discuss these issues with plane deniers. The only person that can get you out of that hole is you, icee, and the only reason for you to come out of your hole is if you're denied the attention you seek by denying such a thing.

To believe your take, I would have to believe that hundreds of family members are lying. How you can honestly believe that is something I can't understand and never wish to.

Good day.

[icee2]

35. Let's put this issue aside. I've seen no proof that 77 was...

scheduled to fly on 9/11 and indeed no proof that it did so. You believe that it did and you have your reasons for promoting your
faith and belief that it did.

[Bolo Boffin]

36. There is no proof that you would accept. n/t

[icee2]

39. No proof has been provided. That's why I said drop it...but

I'm not gonna continue to take any more game bait. Argue with yourself about 77. It's a no-winner for me, but for you its maybe not
a no-winner. I could only speculate about that, and I believe that it's best for ME not to.

[Bolo Boffin]

42. There is no proof that you would accept. n/t

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HannibalCards]

23. Deleted for civility

Apologies.

[Bolo Boffin]

25. Hannibal, that's against DU rules.

You can point out factual inaccuracy, but calling even a palpable lie a lie is expressly forbidden in the rules.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HannibalCards]

37. My mistake

I apologize, post deleted.

[Bolo Boffin]

41. No worries here. n/t

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KDLarsen]

57. A slight bump, but for a very good reason..

Scanned images of American Airlines' physical timetable from July 2nd, 2001:
http://www.departedflights.com/AA070201intro.html

American Airlines flight 11 listed as a Boeing 767-200 flight from Boston to Los Angeles:
http://www.departedflights.com/AA070201p54.html

American Airlines flight 77 was a Boeing 757 flight from Washington-Dulles to Los Angeles:
http://www.departedflights.com/AA070201p90.html

[Bolo Boffin]

15. You really believe that the passengers of Flight 77 were made up - invented.

Incredible.

[icee2]

17. You really believe 77 was a scheduled flight and that...

the OCT claims that it flew and crashed at the Pentagon are truthful...and not invented to cover up a fairy tale.

Incredible.

[Bolo Boffin]

18. So the kids on the National Geographic field trip and the chaparones - all made up?

http://news.preview.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/06/0625_020625_channelisland.html

Organizers said the make-up workshop was held this spring to carry on the mission and honor the memory of two long-time National Geographic employees who died in the September 11 attacks.

Ann Judge, director of the National Geographic Society's travel office, and Joe Ferguson, assistant director of the Geography Education Outreach program, had been aboard Flight 77 accompanying three pairs of students and teachers from Washington, D.C., to the Channel Island National Marine Sanctuary.

They were planning to participate in a field study organized under the Sustainable Seas Expeditions program, which is sponsored by the National Geographic Society (NGS) and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).

That's quite an elaborate ruse, icee. Don't you think it would have been simpler just to have hijackers fly a plane into the Pentagon, killing all on board?

[icee2]

19. So why didn't they?

"Don't you think it would have been simpler just to have hijackers fly a plane into the Pentagon, killing all on board?"

[Bolo Boffin]

22. So you do agree such a act would have been far more easy to do than your scenario.

How about Stephen Push, icee?

http://fas.org/irp/congress/2002_hr/091802push.pdf

That's his statement before the Joint Intelligence Committee's hearing on September 2002. He was the co-founder and treasurer of Families of September 11. He says his wife, Lisa, was aboard Flight 77 that day.

How many other family members are lying, icee? All of them?

[icee2]

24. Where's the beef? n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

27. I've provided you with Push's sworn statement before Congress.

Do you need more to understand that his wife was aboard what you deem a non-existent plane, and that therefore he's a desperate liar, according to your account?

That they all, every surviving family member of the passengers of 77, are liars?

[icee2]

30. Just some proof that 77 flew/crashed. Is that too much to ask? n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

31. A nice trick you have. All actual evidence you ignore and then ask for more evidence.

Your reason for doing so? Misinterpreting an on-time database in which the BTS itself publishes a disclaimer warning people not to misinterpreting the exclusion of data.

On September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight #11 and #77 and United Airlines #93 and #175 were hijacked by terrorists. Therefore, these flights are not included in the on-time summary statistics.

You can't get back the years you've wasted in pursuit of this fantasy, icee. But you can rescue your future.

[icee2]

33. It's not proof of the issue, but I understand why you continue...

to rely on it. You've got nothing else to hang yer hat on.

[Bolo Boffin]

44. There is no proof that you would accept. n/t

[icee2]

45. You have no proof. Only insults, bait, and magical "powers" nt

[Bolo Boffin]

46. There is no proof that you would accept. n/t

[icee2]

49. You have no proof. Only insults, bait, and "magical" powers

[Bolo Boffin]

50. There is no proof that you would accept. n/t

[rschop]

40. The FDR parameter for the FLT DECK DOOR was not active

The FDR parameter for the FLT DECK DOOR was not active and recorded on this model B757. Flight 77 was a B757-2 with "N" numbers, " of N644AA" indicating that it was built in late 1991, when this model was manufactured at Boeing. On this model the FDR did not record the state of this parameter in the FDR data, even though they left room for it and recorded this data later in the newer B757-3.

There is no indication that this model had ever been upgraded to a B757-3

The last 42 hours on the FDR data shows in fact no record of this function becoming active, meaning the door switch parameter had never been recorded as open on any of these flights even though this data covered 12 separate flights, again confirming that this FDR parameter was inoperative on this model of B757-2.

[rschop]

47. The flight data recorder, FDR, and FTL DECK DOOR status

It has been suggested that since the B757-2 had a revision change to the FDR due to a FAA AD, this meant that the while the FLT DECK DOOR status had not been recorded before this change, this parameter was recorder after this FAA required revision.

This change was called out from FAA documentation but was also described in Boeing revision document D226A101-3 at http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id4067718242.html.

After researching the D226A101-3 document, I think I have found the necessary information to sort this all out.

IC&RD Revision history D226A101-3 shows revs for the B757-1 and B757-2 through revision C, and for B757-3 through revision D1, B757-3A through revision F and for B757-3B and B757-4 through revision G.

The Revision Letters A-G are also described and these list the changes to the prior versions of the DFDAU, the flight data recorder, B-E112.

I have gone through all of the data saved on these DFDAU units and clearly the FLT DECK DOOR status is saved for the B757-3 and above but it is not even recorded for B757-1 or B757-2.

I have also gone through all of the Revision Letters listed in D226A101-3 that were required by the FAA and the Boeing and supplier reviews and can find nothing calling out any change to the recording of the FLT DECK DOOR status for the B757-2 type aircraft.

It is clear that AA77 that was a B757-2 and this type of aircraft did not record the status of the FLT DECK DOOR and all of the updates per FAA requirements did not change this parameter.

So the claim that the AA 77 FLT DECK DOOR was never opened appears to be bogus because this parameter is never even recorded on B757-2 type aircraft and AA77.

[LARED]

48. Thank you - nt

[rschop]

51. Update to the flight data recorder data for flight AA77

It has been suggested that due to NTSB DCA01M064, that while AA77 was manufactured as a B757-2 it had been was upgraded to a B757-3A or at least used the B757-3A frame data format for the FDR. The frame data format for a B757-3A aircraft type has the FLT DECK DOOR defined as a valid parameter.

To update this issue, refer to the information in the following NTSB report:

Specialist’s Factual Report of Investigation
DIGITAL Flight Data Recorder

NTBS Number DCA01MA064

This is at: http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf and is the NTSB report on the FDR data for flight AA77.

This report lists out the parameters in the frame data format that were not working or were unconfirmed on AA77 and all B757-2 type aircraft:

Parameters Not Working or Unconfirmed

PORT NAME PARAMETER ASSIGNMNET

EICAS L/R-A-1 FLT DECK DOOR

But it clearly says in this report:

The transcribed data were reduced from the recorded binary values(0s and 1's) to engineering units (for example feet, knots, degrees, etc.) using conversion formulas obtained from Boeing and American Airlines for this airplane. See footnote 1

Footnote 1
Based on B757-3B frame data.

So it is clear that the NTSB used the B757-3A frame data format and corresponding software for the B757-3A to decode the data from flight AA77. So what exactly does this all mean. Clearly AA77 which was a B757-2 did not turn itself into a B757-3A. Aircraft can never change their certification type. See http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N644AA. This plane was manufactured as a B757-2 and when it crashed into the Pentagon it was still a B757-2.

But it is clear that the frame data for the B757-2 is subset and is upward compatible with the B757-3A, and not that AA77 had all of the data that can be stored in the B757-3A frame data format. Data that was not defined in the B757-3A format for the B757-2, is listed in this report as parameters that are not working or unconfirmed, and the FLT DECK DOOR is listed as just one such parameter.

Undefined parameters are generally grounded, in the case of the FLT DECK DOOR this grounded pin would show up as a "0" and would always show closed whether the FLT DECK DOOR was open or closed.

Since the Revision Letters in D226A101-3 for the FDR for the B-757-2 never called out the addition of this parameter for the B757-2 to the frame data format for this aircraft type as I had described in a prior post, this parameter is undefinded for the B-757-2, even when the software decoding the B757-2 data is using the B757-3A frame data format definition.

If this parameter had ever been added to the B757-2 it would have been added to the FAA documentation and would have also been described in Boeing revision document D226A101-3 at http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id4067718242.htm for the B-757-2 frame data format and it is not.

I hope this clears this issue up, once and for all.

[Ezlivin]

52. Update and clarification

All the FDR systems were updated before 08/18/2001.

According to http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_02/textonly/s01txt.html these are the guidelines:

3 Summary and Impact of FAA FDR System Rule Change
The rule change addresses all Boeing commercial airplane models and groups them as follows:

• Airplanes manufactured before October 11, 1991, without an FDAU or DFDAU as of July 16, 1996.


• Airplanes manufactured before October 11, 1991, with an FDAU or DFDAU as of July 16, 1996.


• Airplanes manufactured after October 11, 1991, after August 18, 2000, and after August 18, 2002.

AIRPLANES MANUFACTURED PRIOR TO OCTOBER 11, 1991, WITHOUT AN FDAU OR DFDAU INSTALLED AS OF JULY 16, 1996.

The new rule requires that by August 18, 2001 the FDR record at least 18 parameter groups. For most airplanes, this is an increase from 11 parameter groups, as described in "Effects of 1989 FAA Flight Data Recorder Rule Change" on page 32. ... The new rule requires that by four years from date of rule at least 22 parameter groups be recorded by the FDR. In this group are Boeing models 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, DC-10, and MD-80.

Flight 77 = N644AA 2460
Certificate Issue Date 05/08/1991 (http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=644AA)

N644AA MANUFACTURED PRIOR TO OCTOBER 11, 1991

So N644AA was updated before August 18, 2001.

[rschop]

53. The final word on the FDR and AA77

I am sure had already answered this in a prior post but here it is again!

The latest Data Frame Layout for a B757-2 is described in the engineering control document D226A101-3, the document controlling the revisions of the B757-2 FRD Data Frame Format. The B757-1, B757-2, and B757-3 data frame formats are listed in this control document in detail. This information was updated per this control document as described in the prior post.

The prior post lists the following information:

"Summary and Impact of FAA FDR System Rule Change

The rule change addresses all Boeing commercial airplane models and groups them as follows:

Airplanes manufactured before October 11, 1991, without an FDAU or DFDAU as of July 16, 1996.

Airplanes manufactured before October 11, 1991, with an FDAU or DFDAU as of July 16, 1996.

Airplanes manufactured after October 11, 1991, after August 18, 2000, and after August 18, 2002.


AIRPLANES MANUFACTURED PRIOR TO OCTOBER 11, 1991, WITHOUT AN FDAU OR DFDAU INSTALLED AS OF JULY 16, 1996.
The new rule requires that by August 18, 2001 the FDR record at least 18 parameter groups. For most airplanes, this is an increase from 11 parameter groups, as described in "Effects of 1989 FAA Flight Data Recorder Rule Change" on page 32. ... The new rule requires that by four years from date of rule at least 22 parameter groups be recorded by the FDR. In this group are Boeing models 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, DC-10, and MD-80."


But from this document D226A101-3, the document that controlled the changes described above, you can see that his parameter was never recorded when the B757-2 was first manufactured by Boeing in May 1991 and there was no change made to the status of the FLT DECK DOOR on B757-2 type aircraft and AA77.

According to the NTSB report on AA77 in http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf the NTSB had used the Data Frame Format for a B757-3 and frame data format decoding software at rev B757-3B to decode the data in the data from the B757-2, AA77. At first some have suggested that this meant the FLT CDECK DOOR status might have been added since it is found on a B757-3B type aircraft. But the NTSB has also listed the parameters that were “not working or confirmed” when they decoded this format for a B757-2 aircraft, AA77, using the B757-3B software and the FLT DECK DOOR status is clearly listed in this NTSB report as "Not Working or Unconfirmed".

This is because the Data Frame format for the B757-3 happens to be a super set of the Data Frame format of the B757-2 as long as the unused data bits are listed and are ignored.

At first it looks like it is equivalent to either describe the complete set of stored parameters for the B757-2 in one list as in D226A101-3 or list the entire B757-3 parameter list and then show which ones do not apply to the AA77 or a B757-2 in the list that is headed, “Not Working or Unconfirmed” as was done in the NTSB document.

Both lists will in effect have the same parameters. But it should be noted that the http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf is not an engineering revision control document for the B757-2, the IC&RD Revision history D226A101-3 is. The http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf is a report for the NTSB on the study of the FRD data on AA77, that just happens to use the rev B757-3B software to do the decoding of the AA77 flight data since the B757-2 frame data format is a subset of the B757-3 frame data format.

From an engineering prospective http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf does not modify the data format of a B757-2, that would be against the law, only the engineering revision control document D2226A101-3 tied back to a FAA AD number can do that, and the http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf cannot turn the data format for a B757-2 into the data format of a B757-3.

The FDR format is always controlled by the engineering control document for that aircraft type. Where some people are getting confused is it just happens that this format is subset of the B757-3 frame data format and the rev B757-3B software can and was used in the NTSB report to decode the defined bits for AA77.

In any case D226A101-3 describes all of the defined parameters in the B757-2 data format, and the FLT DECK DOOR is not listed in this format, the Revision Letters for the B757-2 in this document do not mention any change to the FLT DECK DOOR parameter for this aircraft type and even the http://www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf says that when the B757-3B software was used to decode the B757-2 data frame format, it specifically listed the FLT DECK DOOR in the not working parameter list.

Since the FLT DECK DOOR is not working, or undefined, it's input pin would be grounded which would always show a “0” in the FDR data which would indicate a closed FTL DECK DOOR with no change possible even if the door were either closed or opened.

The NTSB report shows the FLT DECK DOOR was closed for the entire flight of AA77, but this parameter was never recorder and hence this door closed indication is bogus.

[f11killerbeing]

58. Well

They may have forced their way in, breaking the cockpit door. It's not as if it was hard

[defendandprotect]

59. Amazing . . . !!!