BOMBSHELL CLAIM: Flight 11 hijackers in cockpit before takeoff

[travis80]

This was the big announcement in tonight's 9/11 episode of Jesse Ventura's new http://www.trutv.com/shows/conspiracy_theory/index.html">truTV show.

Mike Bellone, a Ground Zero rescue worker, told Ventura that he had physically seen one of the black boxes recovered at the WTC and said other rescue workers he was working with said at least 3 were found. Bellone said he was told by the FBI to shut up about finding the black boxes and has been harassed by the Feds. This story about black boxes being found at the WTC was reported first back in http://web.archive.org/web/20041030023935/http:/www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/10033802.htm">Oct 2004 by the Philadelphia Daily News.

Bellone was supposed to introduce Ventura to people who apparently worked for American Airlines and were monitoring the calls from Flight 11 and heard some explosive stuff that the government never told the public about, but he said they got scared at the last minute and didn't want to be interviewed anymore. Bellone said they've all been told to hush up by the FBI and one of them is being constantly followed and being bugged by the Feds.

At the end of the show, Ventura said Bellone finally called him later and told him that the reason the government is covering up that they found the black box of the alleged planes that hit the towers was because those black boxes prove that the hijackers were in the cockpits before the planes took off from the ground and officials at the airports allowed the planes to take off!

It's all hearsay for now of course, but quite the claim!


(The episode should be on youtube soon and I'll post link when up.)

[travis80]

1. video clips of show

Jesse Ventura interviews Mike Bellone in a cafe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1PUCZxXKT8

Jesse at the end telling the bombshell revelations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdugQCcYT0o#t=3m52s

[travis80]

2. Bellone, not Bellonea (n/t)

[Bolo Boffin]

3. Your title claims a bit more than can actually be proven.

[travis80]

21. Bolo, you ever hear that phrase...

don't judge a book by its cover? if you even bothered to read my entire post, you would have seen where i wrote this "It's all hearsay for now of course, but quite the claim!"

[Bolo Boffin]

29. Yes, but why misrepresent in the title? You'd need no disclaimer if your headline was accurate. n/t

[travis80]

31. sorry title cop. n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

35. You're forgiven, factually inaccurate one. n/t

[jberryhill]

4. Is Bellone In Jail Yet?

September 28, 2005 Wednesday
HEADLINE: 9-11 'HERO' SWIPED OUR GEAR: FDNY
Daily News, New York, Sports Final Edition

FIRE MARSHALS ARRESTED a self-proclaimed "honorary firefighter" for allegedly touring the country with pilfered FDNY gear to promote a 9/11 book, officials said yesterday.


The New York Post
April 5, 2004 Monday
SECTION: All Editions; Pg. 15
HEADLINE: 9/11 TOUR FUROR - FIRE MARSHALS PROBE GROUND ZERO EXHIBIT
BYLINE: JEANE MacINTOSH

A New York charity that runs a traveling exhibit of Ground Zero "artifacts" - including part of a plane, pieces of destroyed buildings and earrings, shoes and eyeglasses belonging to victims - is under investigation by city fire marshals, The Post has learned.

And Fire Department brass has warned the group - which won't say where or how it obtained many items - to stop claiming ties to FDNY and dressing in its uniforms.

"The fire marshals have opened an investigation into this group," FDNY spokesman David Billig confirmed.

Members of the organization, Trauma Response Assistance for Children (TRAC) Team, a registered nonprofit charity, cross the country talking to schoolkids and civic groups. The group wears Fire Department garb during presentations, but isn't sanctioned by the department.

"This group has no right to imply it works for or acts in any official FDNY capacity," Billig said. They are "not authorized to wear Fire Department uniforms."

TRAC founder Mike Bellone said he means no harm: "We're just a group of guys who want to share our experiences from Ground Zero and show kids that hope can spring from a horrible tragedy."

The group has done more than 700 presentations nationwide, he said.

TRAC doesn't charge for appearances and relies on sales of a self-published book and souvenirs - such as shirts, patches and snow globes carrying the FDNY logo - for revenue.

But, Bellone said, "Our hosts, if they can afford it, pay our room and board."

Billig said the products TRAC sells aren't officially licensed by FDNY.

Bellone, a former grocery worker, was named an "honorary firefighter" by friends at a ladder company for his Ground Zero work, where he was given "visitor" access to the site.

His group's press releases read, "FDNY and TRAC Team Present," and its members' shirt patches are emblazoned with the words "TRAC Team - FDNY." But only one of them, Bob Barrett, a retired firefighter, is legitimately FDNY. The other four or so men are Bellone's pals.

Still, Bellone insists, "We don't give the idea I work for FDNY, or that TRAC is connected to them. If someone got that idea, I apologize."

As for the artifacts, Bellone said: "It never occurred to me that anyone would have a problem with it. We tried to return some of the stuff, but if nobody wanted it, we thought, 'Why not use it for educational purposes?' If someone wants something back, just tell me."

TRAC's troubles might run deeper than the exhibit investigation.

The Post has learned that the group:

* Owes New Jersey graphics company ADP $200,000 for printing its self-published book about Ground Zero.

* Stiffed a company that provided the American flags TRAC hands out to local dignitaries.

* Left a cross-country trail of more than $20,000 in unpaid bills, including hotel rooms, flights, FDNY shirts, business cards and even prescription drugs.

The Post spoke to four former TRAC business associates who said they felt "used" by the group after it "misrepresented" itself and left unpaid bills.

"I put my reputation on the line for this group, and believed in it," said one. "But the truth is, they play on people's emotions and good will, manipulating them where they're most vulnerable for nothing but their own gain."

Bellone conceded TRAC owes money, but chalked some of it up to "miscommunications" and "mix-ups" and said, "We've either paid or are working to pay off all our bills."...

[SidDithers]

7. ROFL...

and truthers hitch their wagon to yet another fine, upstanding citizen. :rofl:

Sid

[Ter]

13. Not the same guy

Notice the different last name in the article and the OP.

[SidDithers]

17. Note the correction by the OP in post #2...nt

Sid

[jberryhill]

38. It's spelled "Baloney" /nt

[BeFree]

40. Truthers? Wagons?

Ok...

If ya have truthers, what then shall we label the other side?
What is the opposite of truth? Would liars fit?

And if you're hitching to wagons, what wagon are the non-truthers hitched too?
Bushco's? The M$M? What wagon, then?

Thanks ahead of time for your answers, Sid.

[travis80]

23. so Bellone is lying about the black boxes and hijackers in cockpit claim? n/t

[jberryhill]

39. Absolutely

Cockpit voice recorders capture 30 minutes of audio.

Don't you recall the event just recently where a plane overshot its destination by longer than 30 minutes, and all that could be recovered from the CVR is the final 30 minutes of the conversation?

The claim is facially absurd.

And that is aside from the fact that when CVR's are recovered from accident sites, nobody goes back to the site from the lab to fill in the first responders (Bellone is a grocery clerk, not a fireman, btw) what was on the tape.

The claim makes NO sense, and it comes from a guy who has a history of making inflated claims about himself, and of ripping people off to promote his 9/11 merchandise.

[travis80]

45. Bellone didn't make that claim. Ventura infered that. so is Bellone lying about finding BB's? n/t

[jberryhill]

77. Ventura states that Belloney made the claim...

After the scene in the parking lot where Balloney tells Ventura that his imaginary friends were threatened away, they go into the diner. Balloney then tells Ventura to turn off the camera.

Ventura then comes back on to say that Balloney told him off camera that the tapes revealed the presence of hi-jackers in the cockpit before the plane took off.

That program was comedy gold!

It would have been even better if Manny Badillo didn't hog the mike at the ground zero scene, and let Luke Rudkowski get a few words of crazy in edgewise.

But I love how Jesse "just happens" to run into the Luke and Manny show on his visit to the site.

[Wilms]

46. It depends what was kind of recorder was installed. So that may not be true.

"A standard CVR is capable of recording 4 channels of audio data for a period of 2 hours."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockpit_voice_recorder


The CSMU retains the most recent 30 minutes or 2 hours of audio, digital, and timing information.
https://commerce.honeywell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ECategoryDisplay?catalogId=10101&storeId=10651&categoryId=14021&langId=-1

[KDLarsen]

5. EDIT: Nvm n/t

Was thinking of the wrong guy :(

[Ohio Joe]

6. Not hearsay, complete bullshit

Jesse disappoints going with obvious bullshit like this, he usually is much more straight calling bullshit for what it is. I could see him going with the guys claim of seeing the boxes found but... how exactly would this guy have the slightest idea what was recorded on the them? Obvious bullshit.

[eomer]

8. That's not a correct representation of who said what.

Gov. Ventura's statement about what was on the recorder was an inference by Ventura, not a statement from Bellone that he (Bellone) had direct knowledge about what was on them.

Ventura's inference was based on the reported statement by American Airline employees that they heard communications from Flight 11 before takeoff indicating that hijackers were already in the cockpit and that the flight was still allowed to take off knowing that. If those reports are true then the black box would (according to Ventura) have recordings of those conversations, which obviously would be in conflict with the official story.

[Bolo Boffin]

9. Don't CVRs only have the last 30 minutes of a flight recorded?

Flight 11 took off at 7:59 and crashed at 8:43.

Flight 175 took off at 8:14 and crashed at 9:03.

Do you see the difficulty in the CVRs having recordings of the cockpit before taking off?

[jberryhill]

10. These were MAGIC cockpit voice recorders

If you take enough steroids, you can hear more than 30 minutes.

[Octafish]

11. Good point. Which brings to mind why wasn't USAF alerted?

Had ATC known the jets were hijacked before they left the ground, they might've had time to call NORAD, scramble some fighters, and intercept both jets before they reached the WTC.

[Bolo Boffin]

14. You're begging the question.

You have no evidence that the jets were hijacked before they left the ground. The flight recorders were supposed to be that evidence. Please try again.

[travis80]

24. NORAD did know two plane hijacked before 1st tower struck

so when Bush was told about the 1st crash and thought it was an "accident," NORAD knew it wasn't.

[KDLarsen]

48. Wrong

NEADS, and by extension NORAD, didn't get the message from FAA that UA175 was also hijacked until literally moments after it had hit the WTC.

[eomer]

12. That's why I said...

"according to Ventura". I don't know how long the loop is on this recorder.

There are the alleged witnesses still, even if the recorder does not cover that time period.

[Bolo Boffin]

15. Produce the "alleged witnesses." n/t

[eomer]

18. So you're in favor of finding and deposing the alleged witnesses? The way to do that would be

a real investigation with subpoena power.

[Bolo Boffin]

19. Produce a name. n/t

[travis80]

25. Bellone said they are being harassed by the Feds, didn't you read?

he said they are running for their lives. one is being bugged.

would you feel safe to talk Bolo?

[Bolo Boffin]

28. Produce any evidence that this is so. n/t

[travis80]

32. so Bellone is lying? n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

34. So Bellone has zero evidence to back up his statements?

Statements that contradict all the other evidence out there?

Hmmmmm...

[travis80]

44. sounds like you're calling him a liar. n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

55. Some set of ears you got there. n/t

[jberryhill]

78. So, to be clear....

"They" have no problem killing 3,000 people in a controlled demolition, but they have to bug and follow around a couple of people who might spill the beans nine years later about a cockpit voice recording.

And they are being bugged for the purpose of making sure there are recordings of these people saying these things, so they have to hire extra staff to follow around anyone who hears the recordings of these people talking about the recordings.

I can see a new jobs program in the works...

[tetedur]

27. I agree with your assessment of "according to Ventura"

The issues are not articulated as smoothly as they could be.

The black boxes are one issue. Bellone asserts that he witnessed their discovery but the FBI says they were not found.

Another issue seems to be the "airline people (who) said the hijackers were in the cockpit of AA while it was still on the runway before it took off."
Michael Braverman quotes Bellone: "somebody on the ground knew the hijacker was in the cockpit and somebody else on the ground let that plane take off."

Bellone's "friends from Boston" who are "supervisors for Flight 11" "monitored the phone calls that were coming in from the actual flight." According to the
narrator Bellone promised to lead Ventura to the people who have heard the "flight recordings." Are these American Airline or possibly Air Traffic Control recordings? Were these the people who were there in real time and described as those who heard the "recordings?" For whatever reason, are the airline recordings conflated with CVR recordings?

Ventura states "Whatever the reasons they let the plane take off I think we now know why they don't want to discover the black boxes....We'd know they'd have even more time to scramble fighter jets to intercept them."

The only way to clear up these issues is to find these witnesses, give them whistle blower protection, and let them tell their story. Then we could draw some conclusions.

[rollingrock]

58. The last 30 minutes

that's just the minimum time required by the NTSB.

modern CVRs record a lot more than that, more like 2 to 4 hours of conversation.
so the entire flight crew conversation time since lift off should have been recorded.

[Ohio Joe]

20. ahh, I see. The OP mis-represented it

I have not watched it yet and went with what the OP said. That said, it is still obvious bullshit as the recorders only hold 30 mins, simply not enough time. I expect an AA employee in the control tower would know this, at the very least, Jesse should have taken a minute to check it, sloppy.

[travis80]

22. you are correct, Ventura inferred that, not Bellone

i wrote the OP based on my memory of what was said on the show.

Bellone said he witnessed a black box being recovered.
Bellone said he knows AA employees who were monitoring call between Flight 11 and claim they heard the hijackers in the cockpit before takeoff.

Ventura inferred reason feds are covering up black box recovery is they might prove the hijackers were already in the cockpit before takeoff.

[Woody Box]

41. Most interesting...here are my 2 cents

here's my first DU thread from 2004 addressing the gate 32/gate 26 discrepancy at Logan (which was the departure gate of Flight 11).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x6265

here's a working link for the article "Flight 11 - the twin flight" where I gathered evidence that there is not only a discrepancy for the gate, but also for the departure time (some sources say Flight 11 departed on time, other say it was delayed):

http://911wideopen.com/mirror/twin11-1/twin-11-mod.htm

In the light of this apparent duplication, the information that AA employees reported highjackers in the cockpit before take-off is VERY interesting.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

16. Baloney

[travis80]

26. the official story about the 4 black boxes is quite amazing

4 black boxes, designed to be virtually indestructible, essentially vanished at ground zero. not even a shred of one found.

[Bolo Boffin]

30. Do you think those boxes could survive the destructive forces of the twin towers collapsing?

Do you think they could be designed to withstand such forces?

What gives you such an idea?

[travis80]

33. so all 4 black boxes were reduced to powder? n/t

[Bolo Boffin]

36. Didn't say that.

Flattened under all that force into the "meteorites" of compressed floor debris, more likely.

[travis80]

42. ah ok, turned into small pebbles?

pretty remarkable none of the 4 boxes landed in pockets of space.

[KDLarsen]

37. 'Virtually indestrucible' - Hardly

They're designed to withstand a plane crash. Here's the current specs:

Meets the following requirements:
ARINC 747 - TSO C124 - EUROCAE ED 55
- Resistance to shocks: up to 3400 g, for 6 milli sec.
- Resistance to penetration: an impact of 225 kg falling from height of 3 meters
- Resistance to static crush force: 5000 pounds, for 5 min, on all axis
- Fire test: 1100°C flames for 30 min, on entire surface
- Fire test: 260°C - 10 hours
- Resistance to immersion in aircraft fluids: 48 hours
- Resistance to immersion in seawater: 30 days at depth of 6000 m

http://www.sagemavionics.com/ProdFiles/Brochures/FlightDataManagement/SSFDR.pdf

Which is what you'd expect to happen in an airplane crash. They certainly don't build them to withstand crashing into a building, then having said building fall on top of it, and then the rubble being on fire for quite a long time.

[travis80]

43. define "withstand"

i'm not saying they should have functionally survived. i'm saying odds are at least a small piece of one of the 4 boxes should have been found.

[KDLarsen]

47. The odds are pretty damn low though

You're looking for something of this size:


In something of this size:


Even at the Pentagon, where they had a reasonable good idea of where the FDR and CVR might be located, they were damn close to throwing it away because it looked like a generic piece of debris.

[rollingrock]

50. So what about Shanksville and the Pentagon?

they may have been unrecoverable from the massive debris of the WTC, but it doesn't explain how they could have been missing at Shanksville and the Pentagon. can you, or anyone else, explain that?

[Bolo Boffin]

51. The boxes were recovered from Shanksville and the Pentagon.

Only the cockpit voice recorder at the Pentagon was unusable (destroyed in the crash and fire, but the remains recovered). The FDR at the Pentagon, and both the FDR and CVR at Shanksville was recovered.

[rollingrock]

52. But those

were for the data recorders I believe. the voice recorders are still missing, or so they say.

[Bolo Boffin]

54. No, the voice recorders in both places were recovered.

The CVR at the Pentagon was useless for information (destroyed in the impact and fire), but the CVR at Shanksville was useful. The family members listened to it. Some recognized their family members on the recording at the end.

[rollingrock]

56. huh? aren't you referring to the cell phone calls?

the CVRs records voices only from the cockpit I believe.

so has anyone listened to these last words from the crew members of flight 93?
from what I understand, the last 30 minutes is only the minimum time required by the NTSB. modern CVRs record 2-4 hours of cockpit conversation. I don't think flight 93 was in the air that long, so I believe all of the flight crew conversation since lift off should have been recorded. do you know anyone who has heard it yet?

[Bolo Boffin]

60. No, I'm referring to the CVR.

The families got to listen to their loved ones call them from Flight 93 the very day of 9/11. When I say the families listened to the CVR, I mean that the FBI held a session and played the actual tape for them. A transcript of this recording is also in the public domain. I have heard of no dispute of this transcript by any family member who listened to the CVR recording.

Some family members recognized their loved ones on that recording, close to the end, when the passengers were mounting an attempt to take over the cockpit. Flight 93 was actually in the air the longest of all four flights, if memory serves me correctly. The crew had already been disposed of by the hijackers by the time the beginning of the recording we have begins.

[KDLarsen]

61. Here's the transcript

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200056T.pdf

[SDuderstadt]

62. RollingRock....

you need to read this transcript and educate yourself. Your willful ignorance of things like this is obvious from the unbelievably stupid questions you ask. You really should be ashamed of dishonoring the victims of UA 93 with your absurd postulations.

[rollingrock]

63. That's good, we're getting somewhere

however, that isn't the actual voice recording. a transcript can be easily faked.

[Bolo Boffin]

64. The family members listened to the recording, rollingrock

Did you hear any of them dispute the transcript? Gotta link? Of course you don't -- you're just now hearing about this and spinning your way back into your fantasies on the fly.

[rollingrock]

66. Fantasies?

are these family members fantasizing too? because they certainly don't agree with the official account....not even some members of the FBI themselves seem to believe it.





-----------------------------------
There is some controversy between some of the family members of the passengers and the investigative officials as to whether the passengers managed to breach the cockpit. The 9/11 Commission Report asserts that "the hijackers remained at the controls but must have judged that the passengers were only seconds from overcoming them".<21> Others claim that there is no doubt the passengers breached the cockpit.<52>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_93
----------------------------------


Flight 93 Families Bash FBI Theory

CBS/AP

WASHINGTON — Families of passengers who rebelled against hijackers aboard United Airlines Flight 93 (search) said Friday the FBI theory that the terrorists deliberately crashed the plane into a Pennsylvania field was based on "limited and questionable interpretations" of the cockpit recording.

The theory — described by FBI Director Robert Mueller and disclosed deep within a congressional report on the Sept. 11 attacks — suggests insurgent passengers may not have successfully fought their way into the cockpit and grappled to seize the plane's controls, as has been popularly perceived...


www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/08/terror/main567260.shtml

[Bolo Boffin]

67. Starting with your fantasies about what you think your article says. n/t

[rollingrock]

68. You mean it doesn't?

please do correct me, kind sir.

:popcorn:

[Bolo Boffin]

69. Not if you think it supports your point and undermines mine.

Point out where you think it disagrees with anything I've said.

On the contrary, I've never seen a more gross example of someone producing an article that so vividly demostrates what his discussion opponent was saying. It's a rather epic fail on your part.

[SDuderstadt]

65. Oh, for crying out loud, RollingRock....

Do you honestly think the transcript could have been faked and not one person involved would have come forward? This is getting ridiculous. Do you honestly think that no family member that listened to the recording would have come forward and noted any discrepancy?

Jesus.

[KDLarsen]

53. Erh, they weren't?

Both the FDR and CVR were recovered from the wreckage of AA77 inside the Pentagon, though only the FDR was readable.

Both the FDR and CVR were recovered from the wreckage of UA93 at Shanksville.

[rollingrock]

57. The CVR too damaged to read?

that seems hard to believe. the Pentagon is what, five stories high? it seems too convenient to me.

[SDuderstadt]

59. WTF difference does it make how tall the Pentagon is, dude?

It's bullshit like this that accounts for most people here snickering when you post, dude.

[netsurfer2]

49. There have been cases

Where FDR/CVR data has been unsable due to damage. The CVR from FLight 77 is an example.

[Subdivisions]

70. I'm not buying it and I'm sorely dissappointed with the episode. Why?

Because Ballone was in no position to know anyone directly involved with the operation of Flight 11, unless by some stroke of exteme coincidence cosidering Flight 11 originated from Boston's Logan Int Airport. How could he have know anyone who would've known the terrorists were already in the cockpit before takeoff.

Also, Ballone may or may not have been a Ground Zero first responder and he may or may not have seen one or more black boxes. Even if he had seen a black box(es), he would not have been privvy to the data on any boxes that may have been recovered because they would've been siezed by higher authorities and taken away to a lab to be analyzed.

I don't know what to make of Ballone, but this whole line of "investigation" on the part of Ventura and his truTV show is a big fat fail.

[SDuderstadt]

71. Hey, Subdivisions!

Thanks for being one of the honest truthers. Even when I disagree with you, you call it like you see it. Hope things are going well in your town.

[Subdivisions]

72. Thanks SDuderstadt, No matter how much I believe that 9/11 was

to some degree a false-flag operation, I'm not a Godlike Productions-level conspiracy theorist. I'm also not afraid to call bullshit on our side when I see it. I had high-hopes for Jesse's involvement in making a case for 9/11 Truth (as I see it) and he failed to do so. Going to Ballone turned out being to me just as ludicrous as Fox going to that guy who thinks space rays hit the Towers. Complete and utter fail.

[SDuderstadt]

73. You're welcome, Subdivisions....

Personally, if I were a "truther", I would look for a more credible spokesman than Jesse. Hope things are going well in your town and everyone has healed to the extent they can. I still think about that young man everyday.

[Subdivisions]

74. Thank you, SDuderstadt. Despite our differences, I can tell that

you're an empathetic soul. But not much empathy is needed to feel badly about teen suicide, especially when the suicide is a result of relentless teasing by one's peers. My kids are beyond high school and the grand-kids are very young but I've heard from the kids of friends that special programs have been initiated at Cleburne schools to address the issue of bullying. I hope those that teased young Hunter have learned a lesson and, if so, I'm sure it's one they will never forget.

For those of you wondering what SDuderstadt and I are referring to, http://watchdogblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/11/hot-links-bullied-n-texas-teen.html">here is a short news item about the tragic death of my town's own Hunter Layland (pictured). Hold your children close always and hold your children with special challenges even closer and always let them know that you love them.

SDuderstadt, I know we've had some heated exchanges but young Hunter's story just goes to show that no matter our differences or distance there is always common ground from which to find agreement.

[SDuderstadt]

75. Absolutely. Subdivisions...

I could not have said it better myself.

[chandler2]

76. Not buying it.

Unless what is meant is that there were inside job perps in the cockpit giving directions to the "passengers"/actors about
making phone calls...and since there's no proof that the planes in question actually took off, this whole part of the program
is highly suspect, in my opinion.

If there were any actual hijackers, bush would have showered the world with plenty of credible evidence for their existence.

If there were actual hijackers in the cockpits, the PILOTs/crew would have punched in the simple four digit code to alert the
tower that they were being hijacked.

This whole business is as suspicious as the rest of the OCT BS.