It's Hard to Believe People Here Are Still Arguing Against Demolition of the WTC

[spooked911]

If one thing has been firmly established about the 9/11 plot, it is that the three WTC towers were blown up with powerful explosives.

I have been posting here a long time -- since mid-2004. I became seriously interested in 9/11 in 2003-2004, started reading everything I could around that time. I always had doubts about the 9/11 official story, but it wasn't until I read Griffin's "New Pearl Harbor" book that I felt like I was on to something real. Although, in all honesty, I wasn't convinced by the book-- I thought there wasn't smoking gun evidence. And I was actually very skeptical about the idea that the WTC was blown up. But I also remember thinking that if it could be shown that the towers were blown up, then that would be clear evidence that 9/11 was an inside job. I read several more books at that point, I started my 9/11-themed blog, I did my own research and I learned a lot about the demolition of the WTC towers. I got very motivated to do something about what I consider the massive scam of 9/11. And that was just the beginning, I have learned so much more in the past three years. The important thing I learned was that 9/11 wasn't done in isolation, but was merely the most recent and most egregious of a long line of conspiracies against ordinary Americans. Just following the news over the last few years, it soon becomes clear that the official stories for all sorts of events are obviously false, and that we Americans are constantly being fed propaganda by our government. The media are complicit in this too. This should be clear. We should automatically distrust official stories-- particularly in matters of war and "national security".

By now, it should be clear to anyone who has looked into the matter and who has an ounce of wisdom about the world that the WTC towers didn't undergo simple "collapses". There are so many lines of evidence that the towers must have been blown up, I don't see a need to rehash it here. But the clearest reason that demolition must be the case is how woefully inadequate the official collapse story is at explaining the full devastation of the towers. The fact is that demolition of the WTC towers is a better explanation for their destruction than collapse-- it is by far the better hypothesis.

Obviously, there is a very vocal cohort of posters here who make it their mission to deny any notion of 9/11 being an inside job, including denying the demolition of the towers-- to ridiculous lengths of denial. How many people who believe 9/11 was an inside job have come here to this board, and gotten totally turned off, turned away, frustrated by the steadfast and ever present denial and mockery of the OCT supporters? The OCTists even have an expressed agenda-- to "protect" the Democratic party from "crazy" conspiracy theories. For some reason, the OCTists ignore that the powers that pulled off 9/11 are in fact powerful enemies of everything Democrats (supposedly) stand for. Think of how much better the world would be if the evil, elite masters of war were exposed, if the war criminals were brought to justice, and if the insane foreign wars were stopped-- and had never even been started. Peace and justice are Democratic ideals to me, and I truly resent people shutting me and my brethren out of the conversation-- and shutting down discussion of 9/11 being the highest order of treason. The OCTists are expert at mockery and picking at details, and consistently act oblivious to the larger, well-documented, conspiratorial picture of the world.

The mainstream media is excellent at covering up conspiracies, and promoting propaganda-- why do we need this here at DU?

[spooked911]

1. This too

[deconstruct911]

3. ya but look at tower 7

the dust is just pulverizing it. How could anyone expect that building not to collapse?

[SDuderstadt]

8. Cause and effect aren't exactly your strong suit...

are they...

[deconstruct911]

37. That's your opinion. nt

[SDuderstadt]

38. No, dude...

it's an observation and it's quite true.

[terrafirma]

2. Might I suggest...

... taking your apparent slam-dunk case somewhere other than an internet forum then?

If the evidence is as conclusive as you say it is, then there should be no problem blowing this cover-up wide open.

[deconstruct911]

4. Why would the people behind 9 11

who have all control prosecute themselves? I can only laugh at the suggestion of prosecuting the prosecutors et al....

[terrafirma]

5. Well then what's the other option?

Chat about the NWO/PTB for eternity on an internet forum?

Guess I'm just having trouble understanding what the ultimate goal of the truth movement is if there's no real desire or plan to hold those who were responsible accountable...

[spooked911]

10. what would you do then?

And are you with us, or against us?

[terrafirma]

12. Why the hell are you asking me?

You've had almost 10 years to figure out a game plan and you're still posting the same regurgitated stuff on websites. It's an open and shut case in your eyes. The evidence is there. The debate is over.

And yet all you do is continue to post on an internet forum.

I really don't see how your complacency in your own beliefs makes you any better than the people you believe murdered 3000 people.

Honestly, based on your statement, it looks to me that you're looking more for acceptance than actual justice. What does my being with you or against you have anything to do with it?

[jberryhill]

16. Because you, yes YOU, are THE obtacle to the truth winning

Do you realize that if nobody disagreed with spooked911 here at DU, that the wars would be over and all of the guilty would be in jail by now?

YOU, sir, are preventing him from saving the world.

So... knock it off.

[spooked911]

18. it's not just him/her (obviously)

but about 20 of you here-- definitely aren't part of the solution.

[jberryhill]

39. There are not 20 of me

There is only one of me.

Do you think if more of the thousands of DU members participated in the 9/11 forum, that there would be more support for explosives, no planes, and the like?

Why, in your opinion, do DU members, who vigorously disagree and argue passionately about a variety of things, choose not to participate in this forum? To say "they are discouraged by OCTists" doesn't cut it, since there were no shrinking violets between Obama and Hillary partisans during the primaries, or on other subjects about which there is considerable difference and argument.

[spooked911]

46. A lot of people just don't care that much about 9/11.

As far as I can tell, everyone in my family (parents, brothers, wife) thinks the official 9/11 story stinks and they suspect an inside job. However, they just don't care enough to do something about it. Or they are scared to "go there" because of the general derision CTs get. I suspect most people at DU are like that.

I have seen many threads where there is widespread support for 9/11 being an inside job, but generally these people just don't want to get into the details.

If more of the thousands of DU members participated in the 9/11 forum, would there be more support for explosives, no planes, and the like?

If they cared about it-- absolutely.

[terrafirma]

57. Wow...

Honest question then for you Spooked.

What's more frightening to you? Knowing that the PTB (and the alien blockade) have a strangle hold on our civilization, or the apathy your family, friends, and everyone else who "knows" 9/11 to be an inside job show by not giving a damn about it?

If what you believe is actually true, how heart-breaking it must be for you to wake up next to someone every morning who doesn't care enough about the fact our government murdered 3000 of its own citizens to advance an endless war to do anything about it. That they're too scared of being called names.

You say the OCTers on here are the problem. That we're the ones standing in our way.

But from the looks of it, it seems like your own apathy is a much larger problem.

[spooked911]

59. what's more frightening to me?

I would say those two things are equally disturbing. But "frightening" is not exactly how I would put it.

As far as my wife, it's not exactly heart-breaking, and it's not just about being scared of being called names. There is also the issue of:
a) feeling powerless to do anything
b) worried about losing one's livelihood if one speaks out publicly
c) that taking care of the children is more important.

The reason I give the OCTists a hard time is because they:
a) tend not to argue in good faith
b) expose themselves to this material but won't willingly admit the truth.

Dude, the problem is not MY apathy.

[terrafirma]

Ok...

... so your wife has some excuses (although a bit weak IMO considering the implications of your beliefs)

What about the rest of the people who think 9/11 was an inside job? Why are they so apathetic?

And you misunderstood my use of "your" in regards to the apathy thing. It wasn't directed specifically at you, it was meant for the truther movement as a whole.

[spooked911]

61. I can't speak for others really, but

my sense is the "apathy" is a mixture of:
a) being very preoccupied with other things in life
b) happy enough and not wanting to upset the cart
c) feeling powerless to change anything
d) somewhat leery of the general derision faced by people pushing conspiracy theories
e) not wanting to dwell so much on such a horrible topic.


These are largely the same reasons, I suspect, that most people don't get upset enough to do anything about most of the fucked up things happening in this country.

There's also this "prayer":
"Grant me the serenity to accept the things we cannot change,
courage to change the things we can,
and wisdom to know the difference."

So for others, maybe they are wise enough to know they can't change anything about 9/11, and I am just dumb. Or that I am just not serene enough. Or maybe I can change things in my own way... who knows.

[terrafirma]

62. All cop-outs, IMO...

... especially when you consider the implications of your beliefs.

"Yeah, I know the government/PTB murdered 3,000 of its own citizens to get us involved in and endless war and could easily do so again as soon as tomorrow, but..."

A.) "... I need to go grocery shopping, and get my hair done, make sure the kids get to soccer practice, and get the car in for an oil change."

B.) "... I'm really fine with that."

C.) "... I'm so alone and helpless."

D.) "... I got called enough names in high school. No need to put myself through that again."

E.) "... I don't wanna' talk about it. Pass me another beer and let's talk of happier things."


In regards to the prayer, that almost seems like you've raised the white flag. .... And yet here you still are posting.

Why?

[terrafirma]

60. Ok...

... so your wife has some excuses (although a bit weak IMO considering the implications of your beliefs)

What about the rest of the people who think 9/11 was an inside job? Why are they so apathetic?

And you misunderstood my use of "your" in regards to the apathy thing. It wasn't directed specifically at you, it was meant for the truther movement as a whole.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zappaman]

19. "I figure if I can present enough evidence, maybe some of you will see the light."

How about presenting ANY evidence?
That would be a start.

[spooked911]

27. knock yourself out

http://911blogger.com/node/9154?page=1

http://bogus911science.wordpress.com/2009/07/17/the-three-fatal-flaws-in-bazants-wtc-concrete-pulverization-calculations-and-why-his-calculations-really-support-nuclear-demolition/

[terrafirma]

21. We'll put the scenario on a smaller scale so you can comprehend it...

I murder your neighbor, a good friend of yours.

I frame your wife and she is found guilty and sentenced to life without parole.

You have evidence that clearly implicates me.




Now why have you been sitting on the internet talking about it for 10 years?

[spooked911]

26. In your analogy-- because the justice system is corrupt,

and I have a a family to support and cannot go off and do something that will make me lose my job.

Capice?

[SDuderstadt]

23. What bullshit....

could you please describe how any of us are "suppressing the truth"?

[spooked911]

28. because you refuse to admit demolition is even a possibility

and your responses indicate that you are more interested in brushing it all away than really trying to understand the evidence for demolition than an inside job.

[SDuderstadt]

33. Dude....

because you have ZERO evidence for your claim. Get it?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[deconstruct911]

36. That's so not true.....

People protest. People refuse to re-elect people that don't serve them. Some people take it another step and refuse to pay taxes.

As for me…. I admit my place is in forums…..

[SDuderstadt]

6. It's hard to believe you're still whining about being "shut down"...

even as you post your CD bullshit.

[spooked911]

9. why is it hard to believe?

You have said you want me to shut up. Clearly I think 9/11 was an inside job, and clearly this idea is censored at DU.

[SDuderstadt]

13. Please show me where I have ever remotely said...

that I want you to shut up, dude. It's also a hoot to believe being given your own forum is, in any way, a form of censorship, dude.

[spooked911]

20. you have told me dozens of times to stop embarrassing DU, etc

it's pretty clear you'd like me to go away

[terrafirma]

22. Need to brush up on your reading comprehension...

"Wishing for someone to go away" is not even remotely near the censorship you claim you've been subjected to.

[spooked911]

29. as do you

since I didn't use the word "censor" or "censorship" in my OP

[terrafirma]

32. Oh, I'm sorry...

... "shutting down" of conversation.

And here I thought this thread was still open.

.... Silly me.

[spooked911]

48. Just that blatant censorship is different

than what generally goes on here

[SDuderstadt]

24. Jesus, Spooked....

how is that trying to "shut you up"?

[spooked911]

30. are you denying that you don't want me to shut up?

Or that when you've told me to stop embarrassing myself that you meant I should keep posting stuff on no planes and nukes instead?

[SDuderstadt]

35. Dude...

do you understand that wishing you'd stop embarrassing yourself is hardly saying I want you to shut up, dude? Your comprehension problems are half, if not more, of what starts disputes with other members, dude.

[spooked911]

49. you also wanted me to stop embarrassing DU and Democrats, many times--

which is very much akin to telling me to shut up.

[SDuderstadt]

53. Bullshit, dude...

maybe you should see someone about your persecution complex.

[jberryhill]

40. Check your irony meter

One of the main themes of your gripe in this thread is that people who disagree with you won't shut up.

[spooked911]

50. No, not really-- that's not what I said at all.

It's very much that I feel many people here aren't arguing in good faith.

[zappaman]

7. again, the same old bullshit

you opining on something you have not the slightest bit of knowledge on.
you don't know about physics, demolitions, aviation, nuclear technology, and everything with you still boils down to "this doesn't look right".
I feel bad that you have wasted so many hours trying to make yourself see things that aren't there.
BTW, I read New Pearl Harbor when it came out since I had questions about what went down. As far as writing goes, it is well written, but I came away thinking "man, there are some nuts out there". His "evidence", which is now your "evidence" is weak to say the least.
So, in the last 6 years you have been working on this, who have you convinced? Surely there must be a family member, co-worker or neighbor who now sees the light, right?

[BeFree]

11. again, the same old bullshit

you opining on something you have not the slightest bit of knowledge on.
you don't know about physics, demolitions, aviation, nuclear technology, and everything with you still boils down to "this doesn't look right".

[jberryhill]

15. "family member, co-worker or neighbor"

No, he claims that none of his family or co-workers wants to discuss the topic. So, other than posting on web forums, he does nothing to advance his cause.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SDuderstadt]

55. Having a bad night....

Spooked?

[jberryhill]

14. "How many people who believe 9/11 was an inside job have come here to this board"

If by "this board" you mean DU in general, then you misperceive what DU is about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7-XfE7KcU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdtTccXcThE

There are a bazillion other websites and forums devoted exclusively to whatever flavor of 9/11 theories one wants to discuss.

Your issue is that the folks who run DU want to keep those discussions in an area dedicated specifically for those discussions. Certain issues, propounded by monomaniacs who have no opinions on anything but crank theories would otherwise swamp "general" discussion.

You do not participate in any other forum on DU, and do not comment on any other topic (unless your theories about the Moon Landing Hoax, chemtrails and the alien overlord quarantine are, in your mind, "other" topics).

This is the umpty-umpth thread here complaining about how you are being "censored", which is the height of irony. Nobody is "shutting you down". If you cannot handle the fact that there are people who disagree with you, then you are going to need to consider simply starting your own website where you can spew to your heart's content, and nobody can disagree with you.

You do not have some superior privilege to speak your mind than any other member of this forum.

[spooked911]

25. Reply--

First, by "this board" I meant the 9/11 board.

Second, I do not begrudge DU at all for having a specialized 9/11 forum-- I appreciate it, in fact. It is one reason why I have donated money to DU several times. And I *am* a Democrat, as disappointed as I have been in them over the past few years. For instance, I voted for Mondale, for Dukakis, for Clinton twice, for Gore, for Kerry, and for Obama-- consistently for Democrats.

Third, I *do* in fact participate in other parts of DU, and I do not solely post here. But this is my specialty area, for sure.

Fourth, I am not saying there is direct censorship here-- rather there is a more insidious ploy at work here. I don't mind someone disagreeing with me so much as I object to the many people here who will not directly confront the evidence or directly answer questions. You are actually better than most here, I must say, in that you don't typically play games and I can usually get an answer from you if you are involved in a discussion. What I really object to is people giving me the classic runaround, calling me crazy, deluded, dumb, illogical, silly, etc, but not directly dealing with the evidence or connecting any dots.

If someone disagrees with me: FINE! Just say you disagree, and ideally give your reason. I have no problem with that.

Moreover, I do not claim to be right all the time, and I freely admit I wrong when I am clearly wrong. Also, I admire the pretty smart people here, and I enjoy debating with people who know their stuff.

On the other hand, many times I have to feel I am right because I cannot get a straight answer from anyone here, and I just get insults or no responses. When people are playing games on something so important, I really have to think there is some deliberate ploy to distract from the truth.

And dammit, there *is* enough evidence to strongly suspect demolition-- and not just deny it, constantly.

[terrafirma]

31. Then, damnit...

... why aren't you DOING anything with it?!!?!?!?

It's a valid question, Spooked. You and I agree on absolutely nothing in regards to 9/11. But I will be the first to admit that you are passionate about this subject, however misguided I may think you are. That passion, coupled with your unwillingness to do a damn thing about, is what infuriates me more than your theories.

Jesus... I mean, if I were you man, and I was sitting on what I felt was a sure-fire case to blow open the biggest cover-up known to man, I would be doing everything in my power to expose it.

Think about it. This is an internet forum. Nothing more. This is not the end-all-be-all of knowledge. People may post here, they may lurk, they may log in everyday or once a year. But so what!?! It's irrelevant. If you had spent the last 9 years trying to find a lawyer to present this in court or rather than arguing on an internet forum, this could all be moot by now. What do you think would get more attention? A high profile trial, or another demolition thread on DU?

[spooked911]

41. we've discussed this before

on my blog. And you don't seem to have digested much of what I've said.


But briefly-- me and thousands of others have tried to get more attention to this issue, to the media and politicians. To no avail. Which is just more evidence of how fucked up our system is-- something obvious even on overt issues.

Posting here is a microcosm of the problems getting attention about this issue outside of here.

Ideally, the goal is to build consensus and to refine arguments here. But sadly, it just typically devolves into word games, and stubborn refusal of the OCTists to admit any crime.

[zappaman]

42. actually it is the stubborn refusal of you

and "thousands of others" to present one shred of evidence.
Not suppositions, maybes, could haves, doesn't look rights, possibilities or speculations.
EVIDENCE.
that is why, 9 years later, you are laughed at.

[terrafirma]

43. Then let me ask another question....

... at what point does your inability (along with thousands of others) to get the word out start telling you something about your argument?

[spooked911]

44. it's not like the word *ISN'T* out--

it's the media and politicians won't act. For crying out loud, the media can't even call torture "torture". How are they supposed to go after 9/11?

In terms of my argument, I do get something from the "feedback" here. If I just get meaningless insults and evasion, then I am on the right track. If I get a substantive rebuttal, then I can use that to modify my argument.

[SDuderstadt]

45. "If I get a substantive rebuttal, then I can use that to modify my argument."

Wouldn't there have to be something to rebut first?

The amazing thing about you, Spooked, is that the more people reject your goofy bullshit, the more you insist you're right.

[spooked911]

52. Oooh, looks like it will be hard to pick the winner!

SDuderstadt is running neck and neck with zappaman-- who will pull it out!?!

[SDuderstadt]

54. Dude...

with the possible exception of deconstruct911, can you point to anyone who takes you seriously?

[terrafirma]

56. And who elects the politicians?

....?

[LARED]

58. Wow

If I just get meaningless insults and evasion, then I am on the right track.

Just wow.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. O LAWD...it's a conversion narrative

Testify!

:rofl:

[defendandprotect]

63. Well . . . I'm not surprised that they continue to try to argue against it ....

for whatever reasons --

However, what saddens me is how many people have such limited ranges of curiosity

about everything!

Generally, those who see information which challenges 9/11 find it impossible not

to begin to question it!

[ablewon]

64. It's even harder to believe that some here still argue FOR demolition

Anyone who knows much about 9/11 has long known the WTC buildings were destroyed by controlled demolition. Thus, it is a waste of
time and it isn't productive to continue to engage in arguments about whether controlled demolition is what caused the collapse of
the twin towers and wtc7.