The passengers of Flight 11 embarked on the wrong plane: CONFIRMED

[Woody Box]

In 2004, I posed a question here in this forum: Did the passengers of Flight 11 embark on the wrong plane? - based on the fact that there are conflicting reports about the gate - Gate 26 or Gate 32.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x6265

Documents released in 2009 show that not only the gate is at issue, but also the boarding time; suggesting that there were two different "Flight 11" at Terminal B.

http://911woodybox.blogspot.com/2010/09/passengers-of-flight-11-embarked-on.html

The anomalies at Boston Airport don't come to an end.

[spooked911]

1. Nice work

as usual

[Woody Box]

14. Thanks a lot

:hi:

[zappaman]

15. you convinced me

Great job guys!
Tell you what, you run this by the families of the passengers of that plane and I'll contact CNN.
Let me know how it goes on your end!

[zappaman]

2. verrrrry interesting

I wonder where the actual passengers ended up?

[IScreamSundays]

3. That is such a lame come back.

But it is the standard answer from you and your friends. If in fact the truth seekers are on the right path; do you really think that the perps would be adversed to offing a couple of hundred commuters when they were in the midst of murdering another 3000. You guys really need to get some new material.

[zappaman]

5. a standard answer?

what's your answer, Einstein?
where did all the passengers go?

[jberryhill]

6. Ooh, ooh, pick me, pick me!

They could have killed the passengers by crashing the plane into a building somewhere.

[terrafirma]

10. GAH!

.... that would be dash cunning of them.

[jberryhill]

12. You know...

I'll be that if we organized a research project to find any buildings that may have been severely damaged or destroyed on 9/11, we might just find out where those fellers crashed that plane.

[jberryhill]

7. "another" 3000?

Ummm... The "3000" figure includes the people on the planes.

So, is your point that the 9/11 death toll was actually higher? Because your use of "another 3000" suggests you are counting the passengers twice.

[deconstruct911]

9. actually the 3000 figure is incorrect to begin with

If you want to be a smart ass. It's close to 3000 and if you include first responders etc the number is higher.

[Drops_not_Dope]

22. Flight 11?

Those passsengers ended up in the Atlantic Ocean.

[zappaman]

23. Really?

And you know this how...?

[Drops_not_Dope]

24. The TRUTH is out there

go look for it.

[zappaman]

26. no

show me.
after all, it was a momentous event.
so, show us your evidence.

[Woody Box]

25. I don't think so

and unless you have solid sources, it's better to stay away from such claims. To disprove the official story, it is enough to show that the flight 11 passengers didn't embark via Gate 32.

[Soldier61]

34. Giant shell game

...just found another source which is backing Woody`s claim:

By Raja Mishra, Globe Staff, 9/12/2002
Sylvio Amorino, just off a flight yesterday morning, simply stood there in front of Gate 26, Terminal B, Logan Airport. It was 7:55 a.m. The 70-year-old realized that, one year ago, American Airlines Flight 11 had idled here.
www.boston.com/news/packages/sept11/anni...es/091202_solemn.htm

Gate 26, 1 year later.


S61

[SDuderstadt]

4. Jesus....

not this shit again.

[ryan_cats]

8. Have you ever flown? How about from Logan?

Airlines change gates all the time. When I used to travel a lot, this would happen frequently. I know that y'all have your own brand of physics but guess what, even in your world, two planes can't occupy one gate, hmmmmm, what to do????

I know this is out there but maybe they couldn't use the correct gate so they used one that is open.

This is the sum total of 9 years of research. You could be an MD by now.

[zappaman]

11. logic has no place in a truther argument

please come up with an outlandish theory to explain the two gates.

[Woody Box]

13. So you're saying that a gate change happened?

Yes or No? I'm very interested in the answer.

And, pssst: please don't put words in my mouth that I never said; neither I claimed that two planes occupied one gate nor I said that I needed 9 years research for establishing this new piece. Thank you.

[Woody Box]

16. Are you not interested in further discussion regarding a gate change?

:shrug:

[Woody Box]

28. What's up, Mr. Travel-a-lot Bigmouth?

Do you still stand to your theory that a gate change happened?

Or is the penny beginning to drop that a Flight 11 gate change busts the official story because the status of the passengers has to be reclassified from "died in the North Tower crash" to "missed"?

I'm just a casual flyer and never was at Logan, but able to draw logical conclusions.

Do you still stand to your theory that a gate change happened - or have you an alternative theory to offer?

[SDuderstadt]

29. WTF?

Can you explain your "logic" here, WB?

[Woody Box]

31. Duderstadt! Sit down! You're not being asked

It is no surprise for me that your intellectual capacities don't suffice to understand "my" logic. It's so simple:

P-26: plane at Gate 26
P-32: plane at Gate 32
P-Passengers: plane that the passengers of Flight 11 embarked on
P-North Tower: plane that crashed into the North Tower
"=": identical with
"<>": not identical with

This is the official story: = P-Passengers = P-32 = P-North Tower

But apparently it behaves like that: P-Passengers = P-26 <> P-32 = P-North Tower

Conclusion: P-Passengers <> P-North Tower

which means that the passengers were not in the North Tower plane.

Capito? :spank:

[SDuderstadt]

32. Box!

No, dude.

First of all it's a public discussion forum, which means anyone can respond to your goofy bullshit. Secondly, despite your repetition of it ad infinitum, 1+2 still equals 3 not 4, dude. Like most conspiracists, you have such a tenuous grasp of Logic, you fail to account for all alternative explanations for your "premises".

It's a good thing that you and your cohorts are nothing more than hapless amateur detectives, otherwise no crimes would ever be solved

I dare you to call any of the families of the passengers and tell them their loved ones did not die in the plane crashes, dude. If you had any hard evidence of your goofy bullshit, you'd be talking about it, rather than your babbling.

[zappaman]

33. CONFIRMED!

Some people believe wacky bullshit regardless of the evidence

[ryan_cats]

36. Answer this...

You want conspiracies? Here is the creme de la creme!

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/gemstone_files.htm

[ryan_cats]

46. You don't reply to me, what makes you so special?

What's up, Mr. Travel-a-lot Bigmouth?
1) I flew for business and hated it after a while.
2) If you had the guts to say that to my face, there would be a Dentist and an eye, ears, and throat Doctor in your future. See, I can be an Internet tough guy but unlike you, I can defend myself.
3) I hate gutless cowards like you, just pathetic and while you're whining to the mods, remember, you started the name calling tough guy (yeah right).

You never answered this:
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/gemstone_files.htm

[Woody Box]

47. You're taking offense? I don't buy that.

After repeated unavailing attempts to get an answer from you, as someone familiar with Logan Airport, I finished asking.

After three weeks you post a response which is actually a non-response (#36), still avoiding my question.

Six weeks later, you post another response (#46), all of a sudden expressing grave emotional discomfort with my wording.

Sorry, I don't believe your sudden negative feelings are genuine. Your last post is obviously just a provocation and intended to induce nasty behavior on my part. The provocation will not succeed.

[ryan_cats]

51. You start out like a typical truther...

You start out like a typical truther...
Remember this line:What's up, Mr. Travel-a-lot Bigmouth?

I talk to a lot of people where I work and I'm always the calm one, however, one look from me usually shuts up people like you. I don't put up with B.S. and if I hear an argument, I run from my cube to see what's up. Usually, when I appear, people start acting like adults and then the problem gets solved. You wouldn't last one day in the mail room, but then again, our mail room folks are pretty good and extremely fast and have something you lack, they are smart, they follow instructions AND #1, they get the job done and I think all are funding their college education. Did you ever work full time and go to school full time and I don't mean easy classes, I'm talking Trig, Geometry, Calculus, chemistry, physics... Now, I'm not saying I'm a great math genius, actually pretty lame now, far from the it but I made it through and even tutored some folks which is a great way to lock in your knowledge.

After repeated unavailing attempts to get an answer from you, as someone familiar with Logan Airport, I finished asking.

Please, stop whining, I counted 4 posts that could be related to mine.

After three weeks you post a response which is actually a non-response (#36), still avoiding my question.

If your question is whether I think a gate change happened, I don't know, I wasn't there. Funny how people who couldn't look up Mass on a map are experts in the terrain around, say a large circle that encompasses, Newark, JFK, La Guardia and others as well as NY, NJ, NH, Mass, RI, Conn, PA, DE, MD, DC and possibly Virginia. So no, I don't think the gate moved, that would take a lot of construction and people would notice that. As for the plane changing gates, very possible and it happens a lot. Does it mean anything? Only to the delusional.

Six weeks later, you post another response (#46), all of a sudden expressing grave emotional discomfort with my wording.

Please, don't flatter yourself, you would wet yourself if you met me and I'm a small guy but I was busy and wanted a laugh so I stopped by here. Please keep in mind, I'm laughing at people like you who have no knowledge of anything, yet post ridiculous theories. I am NOT laughing at the grieving relatives, their families, the firemen and women, the Police; all heros. The next time I'm in NYC, I'm going to the memorial, my only hope is that I don't tear up big time over the massive loss of life as well as the people who are trying to make money off of this tragedy; oh wait, they're just asking questions. What really gets me, is that firemen and police aren't stupid, far from it. The firemen probably knew that they couldn't save the building at the least and complete collapse at the worse. YET, you saw them and the Police going up the stairs while I (to clarify, I'm not insinuating that I was there) and many other would be running down the stairs while I would be carrying the backup tapes and if I could have gotten help, a bunch of drives from each RAID.
I like the grave discomfort remark. I don't think that word means what you think it does. If you could see me, I'm usually smiling when I post, wasting energy being angry on a 17 year old I've never (and I'd like to keep it that way) met is a waste of time.

Sorry, I don't believe your sudden negative feelings are genuine. Your last post is obviously just a provocation and intended to induce nasty behavior on my part. The provocation will not succeed.

You, YOU accuse me of trying to provoke you. Seriously, I don't know you, I don't care to know you, you have obviously no talents in anything that interests me, you are simply pathetic. If I wanted you to get angry, I can and would do it.

Allow me to sum up, you're no important or special than I or the rest of the world. What do you do for a living again? 9/11 scrambled my brain like a blender. A friend called and I saw the second plane hit. I kept saying, what about the people in the plane. Then, hysteria wears off and logic creeps in. I just saw several hundred people die. I watched the tower collapse. The news readers said that up to 50,000 people could be in the WTC. That did not help, the only good thing was it was 'only' around 3,000 people. I put single quotes around 3000 because it's better than 50,000 dead but those 3000 still had families, people who loved them, children who looked up to them as well as the spouses of each victim, I saw the crash live on TV and it took a while to sink in what really just happened. How would you like to know someone on those flights or who worked in the WTC? Maybe the fruitcake with the bullhorn could show some respect but he won't. I've never met him but I can tell he's a loser, always tries to get into arguments and is generally a dirtbag.

Please stop crying before you reply.

[defendandprotect]

17. Isn't Flight #11 one of those which American Airlines said wasn't scheduled that day?

been a while since I looked at that info -- but think so --

Really easy to hijack a plane that isn't scheduled and doesn't exist -- !!

Saves a lot of paperwork!!

[zappaman]

18. I think D&P might be on to something

The hijackers hijacked an imaginary plane!
Kinda explains everything.
I work in the CNN building...headed down to their floor now with this info.
Wish me luck!

[Woody Box]

19. Flight 11 was scheduled, as usual

your info comes from Gerard Holmgren ("Flight 11 didn't exist!"), but it is wrong.

The problem is that there were TWO Flight 11 - one at Gate 26, one at Gate 32. The latter (Gate 32) was the plane that - according to the official story - hit the North Tower. But at least some passengers embarked via Gate 26. These people definitely didn't die in the North Tower. Their status has to be qualified as "missed".

[defendandprotect]

20. No ... American Airlines said there was no flight #11 scheduled ... that's quite different

from you info re "gates" --

Presume you've never seen the info I'm referring to --

And it includes the official record-keeping on flights and statistics about

them.

Think it was also flight #77?

But two flights which the airline says were NOT SCHEDULED that day -- at all!

[Woody Box]

21. I know the database you mean

The database of the DoT - and Flight 11 and 77 were not listed. Of course I know this database. It was the starting point for my research.

But the fact that the two flights were not listed there doesn`t mean they were not scheduled. It only means that the two planes didn`t send departure data via ACARS, the communication system between the plane and the airline. This is odd enough, okay, but nevertheless Flight 11 was scheduled to depart from Gate 32 at 7:45.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

39. yes

[Woody Box]

27. kick for snooper2

:hi:

[mrarundale]

30. What about the wheels-off time?

I'm not going to pretend to be knowledgeable about flight data - it totally makes my eyes glaze over, and I hope someone else didn't already say this, but looking at the BTS data :
http://www.bts.gov/xml/ontimesummarystatistics/src/dstat/OntimeSummaryDepatures.xml

Flight 11 had no "wheels-off" time on 9-11, which is interesting because, of course, flights were cancelled on 9-11 but AFTER the "hijackings", and if you compare for, say, 9-10-2001 and 9-11-2001 you can see that most flights had wheels-off time for 9-10, but after 9-ish on 9-11 they do not have wheels-off time and they have UNKNOWN tail numbers, but it makes no sense that flight 11 has an unknown tail number and no wheels off time because the cancellation was not yet in effect, know what I'm saying? So this implies to me that flight 11 was cancelled because it has the same appearance as the post hijacking flights.
But who is to say any of this data is accurate or trustworthy? I've read that it is very difficult or impossible to get FOIA for flight info on 9-11, everyone passes the buck to other "agencies"...

Also the comments about the shared coding by Dulce Decorum in WB's link are interesting...

[Woody Box]

35. see my post #21

It is fair to conclude from the missing Flight 11 data in the BTS that something was funny with the plane because he didn't send the automated standard flight information (gate departure AND wheels-off) to the airline via ACARS.

But again, this doesn't mean that Flight 11 was not scheduled or didn't take off. I just shows that ACARS was not activated on the plane.

[babiesgotdepends]

37. True, but ya know

There is no visual evidence that Flight 11 ever hit the North Tower (unless you consider the Naudet vid authentic and even then it doesn't look like a passenger jet) And the bts says no wheels off time, and the multiple gates and the anomalies with the "passengers" make me want to invoke Occam's Razor and say: no flight 11 ever left the runway on 9-11. Looks like they "forgot" to report it on the previous Tuesday, but all the days in between it took off around 8. Maybe a drill? The WOT looks pretty consistent to me for other flights, so I am going to have to say it falls into the "what are the odds?" category....

[zappaman]

38. Occam's Razor

You invoked it incorrectly.
"one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything"
for no flight 11 to hit the WTC, you need to increase the number of entities required to explain anything by about...oh, a shitload.

[mrarundale]

43. When there are this many contradictions

including things like four different times reported for flight 11 being reported hijacked to NORAD, somebunny is lying or covering up: that's the simplest explanation. Or is everyone involved just extremely incompetent and confused?

[Woody Box]

40. Boston Tower/Flight 11 transcript

The radio talk between Boston Tower and Flight 11 has been transcribed and published by the NY Times on October 16, 2001. You can trace the path of Flight 11 along diverse taxiways until the plane takes off at 7:59.

7:57:57 -- Local Control East: American eleven heavy runway four right taxi into position and hold traffic departing niner.

7:58:04 -- AAL11: Four right position and hold American eleven heavy.

7:59:02 -- Local Control East: American eleven heavy traffic's orbiting north of the field at thirty five hundred feet. Maintain three thousand runway, four right cleared for takeoff.

7:59:11 -- AAL11: Maintain three cleared for takeoff on four right. What are the winds?

7:59:14 -- Local Control East: Wind three three zero at niner.

7:59:16 -- AAL11: Thank you.

8:00:11 -- Local Control East: American eleven heavy, contact departure that traffic's now in your ten o'clock and two miles thirty four hundred feet.

8:00:19 -- AAL11: We have him in sight talk to departure so long American eleven heavy.

8:00:30 -- AAL11: Departure. Good morning, American eleven heavy with you passing through ah two thousand for three thousand.

8:00:36 -- Boston Departure Radar: American eleven heavy, Boston departure radar contact. Good morning. Traffic ten o'clock two miles, maneuvering Cessna Skyland at three thousand five hundred.

The original NYT link is not working, here's a copy:

http://www.jeepbbs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=991

[mrarundale]

42. oops

never mind

[mrarundale]

44. the ACARS thing

that was who generated the info for the "tranSCRIPTS" according to NTSB which released the transcripts, so wouldn't ACARS have the other data?
The whole flight 11 schmeer reminds me of one of the stories I used to make up when I was a teenager to get out of the house, only mine were BETTER (I never got away with it, though)

[mrarundale]

41. Debbie Mosher Interview

She is in the FBI notes on flight 11 and was interviewed because she was working gates 25 and 35 on September 11, but was "downstairs" when flight 11 boarded :eyes: ... She mentions some people who were "regulars" on flight 11. This suggests that flight 11 left from one of those gates which is even more confusing...but why didn't they interview whoever DID board the plane. (Cuz there wasn't one, maybe)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/18775561/T7-B10-FBI-302s-Homer-Fdr-302s-Re-Daniel-Lewin-357

[Woody Box]

45. Interesting

How do you interpret that here: "She was downstairs in the ticket lift room at 6:15 a.m., 6:30 a.m., and 7:30 a.m." - this looks like she was "downstairs" only for a short time and "upstairs" (i.e. gate area) in between?!

What's a ticket lift, anyway? Can someone enlighten me?

[Woody Box]

48. UPDATE: Was Flight 11 a "real world exercise"?

According to Dawne Deskins of NEADS, it was.

http://911woodybox.blogspot.com/2011/03/was-flight-11-real-world-exercise.html

[SDuderstadt]

49. Jesus, Woody...

you've blown the lid off this thing!

[OnTheOtherHand]

50. if by "was," you mean "wasn't"

As far as I can tell, Deskins refers to 'real world exercises' only to say that they didn't happen. You even put it in bold: "They would not do these hijacks exercises (sic) real world."* Much less do I see any point where Deskins says that Flight 11 was a real world exercise.

I agree that it's logically possible that one or more people at NEADS construed "real world" to mean "live-fly exercise."

As for the "bizarre conversation," I would at least want to hear it before (possibly) opining upon what Shelley Watson meant when she described a "real-world hijack" as "cool." I imagine that emergency responders can be pretty darn sardonic.

*ETA: Of course, that sentence doesn't prove that 9/11 wasn't the exception -- but I sure don't see how it proves that it was the exception, or was thought to be the exception, or whatever you're speculating.

[Woody Box]

52. A pilot's strange encounter with Atta at Boston Airport

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x312244