JFK: Two head shots ?

[Cetacea]

Bob Harris explains a very compelling theory for simultaneous head shots occurring; the first from the rear and the second from the front.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVfIh-8nXyQ

[SDuderstadt]

1. If it was "compelling"...

there'd be actual physical evidence for it.

[Cetacea]

2. The evidence was in Jackie's right hand and delivered to doctors.

Which is why the lie that she was trying to run away from the scene was so important. By extension the whole case is potentially tainted. At least it would be in a normal trial. That lie was so successfully implemented that many Americans still believe it.

[defendandprotect]

4. Don't know that anyone believes that Jackie Kennedy was trying to

"escape" the limo --

Rather, her courage was on display through all of the slaughter --

and as she went forward with her life.

I think -- ONLY because she feared for the safety of her children -- did she

marry and leave America.

And, obviously, she was right to hold those fears --

the death of her son, John Kennedy, Jr. in an another largely unbelievable event

makes that clear!

[SDuderstadt]

6. How do you know that anyone lied??

Couldn't they just be mistaken? Of course, it works better for the JFK assassination conspiracy "community" if you label it a "lie".

[IScreamSundays]

8. Yes, everyone was just....

mistaken

[SDuderstadt]

9. Jesus christ...

that's what I first thought when I saw the clip...unless you can show that anyone knew better but stated differently, I don't think you have much of a case. In any event, what advantage would anyone have gained by lying?

For 47 years we've been waiting for a smoking gun or a major breakthrough from you guys but, instead, you keep fucking around with inane shit like this.

[Cetacea]

11. It's inane that the First Lady's actions were misreported?

I'll bet that many of the eyewitness accounts that were rejected reported her calmly trying to retrieve a key piece of evidence rather than the official story that she panicked and tried to climb out of the car, only to be "rescued" by SS.
Speaking of brain matter, what happened to the motorcycle officer who was trailing the limo and wanted to testify that he was splattered with brain and blood. Is it true that his testimony was rejected and that he died in an accident two or three years later?
Has that been debunked? Just curious.

[SDuderstadt]

12. Dude...

prove your own fucking claims. This is getting stupid.

[Cetacea]

13. I will. Where did the press releases come from?

Do you honestly believe the WH and FBI didn't know what she did that say? Really? Duuuude..

Now, can we stick to the theme of the OP? No one, including CTs, want to discuss the latter images of the Zap film.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[k-robjoe]

15. Bobby Hargis

He was still alive in 2003 :

"Bobby Hargis, 72, then a Dallas police officer whose motorcycle flanked the left rear bumper of the president's car, has a recurring dream in which he chases but never quite catches Lee Harvey Oswald."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/540034492/Those-who-rode-by-Kennedy-remember.html

-----------------

What he reported :

"When President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water... well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. there wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood-I was just a little back and left of- just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know.

(...)


I was splattered with blood. Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit."

http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/Witness/witnessMap/Hargis.htm

------------

HE did testify to the Warren Commision :

"Mr. HARGIS. Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him, and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going,"---- (6H294) "

http://jfkhistory.com/forum/index.php?topic=150.15

[Cetacea]

17. James Chaney was the other.

Thanks.
"He escorted JFK to Parkland Hospital. He was a Dallas police officer, saw Kennedy struck in the face, but never was called as a witness." Died from heart attack.

[k-robjoe]

21. Re James Chaney

He was never called as a witness. Here is something about that :

"In the 1990’s when a group of Parkland doctors were giving their testimony to the ARRB they were asked by Jeremy Gunn had anybody tried to get them to alter their accounts of what they saw. Dr. Ronald C. Jones spoke up and said that after being interviewed by Specter and giving his description of the throat wound and his opinion that it was an entry wound, Specter followed him out in the hall and said to him: “I want to tell you something that I don't want you to say anything about. We have people who will testify that they saw the President shot from the front. You can always get people to testify about something. But we are pretty convinced he was shot from the back."

In other words, we can alter this at will and it doesn’t matter what you say. If we say Kennedy was shot from the back, then he was. Specter at his best, or in the case, the worst, at covering up the truth with his despicable behavior."

http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/2010/07/heroes-and-villains.html

( "As mentioned above, he did the same thing < blocked them from giving testimony > to FBI agents Sibert and O’Neil whose report contradicted the single bullet theory, clearly stating that Kennedy’s back wound was non-transiting." )

[dflprincess]

22. I've always found this excerpt from Tip O'Neil's book "Man of the House" insteresting

I was never one of the people who had doubts or suspicions about the Warren Commission's report on the president's death. But five years after Jack died, I was having dinner with Kenny O'Donnell and a few other people at Jimmy's Harborside Restaurant in Boston, and we got to talking about the assassination. I was surprised to hear O'Donnell say that he was sure he had heard two shots that came from behind the fence. "That's not what you told the Warren Commission," I said.

"You're right," he replied. "I told the FBI what I had heard, but they said it couldn't have happened that way and that I must have been imagining things. So I testified the way they wanted me to. I just didn't want to stir up any more pain and trouble for the family."

"I can't believe it," I said. "I wouldn't have done that in a million years. I would have told the truth."

"Tip, you have to understand. The family-everybody wanted this thing behind them."

Dave Powers was with us at dinner that night, and his recollection of the shots was the same as O'Donnell's. Kenny O'Donnell is no longer alive, but during the writing of this book I checked with Dave Powers. As they say in the news business, he stands by his story.

And so there will always be some skepticism in my mind about the cause of Jack's death. I used to think that the only people who doubted the conclusions of the Warren Commission were crackpots. Now, however, I'm not so sure.

So two of the men closest to JFK admitted to Tip O'Neil that they let the FBI tell them what they saw and heard (who should they have believed, the FBI or their own lying eyes and ears?) it makes it a little easier to understand how other witnesses caved in.

[k-robjoe]

23. Indeed

Thanks for that info. Here is something about the agents in the front seat of the limousine :

"He ( Kellerman ) also claimed that he had seen film that argued against the idea of a lone gunman. However, it appeared that members of the Warren Commission did not want to hear about this and the questioning quickly moved on to another topic.

Later it emerged that both Kellerman and Greer believed that Kennedy had been a victim of a conspiracy. Kellerman's daughter told Harold Weisberg in the 1970's that "I hope the day will come when these men (Kellerman and Greer) will be able to say what they've told their families". After Roy Kellerman's death, his widow reported that her husband was convinced that there had been a conspiracy to kill Kennedy."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkellerman.htm

[k-robjoe]

24. Man Seen Fleeing / Jack Lawrence

"The Man Seen Fleeing Behind the Knoll

J. C. Price was watching the motorcade from the top of the Terminal Annex Building in Dealey Plaza. From that location, he had an excellent view of the plaza and of the area behind the grassy knoll. Immediately after the shots were fired, Price's attention was drawn to the area behind the grassy knoll. He saw a man running across the railyard, toward "the passenger cars on the railroad siding." Price said the man "was running very fast, which gave me the suspicion that he was doing the shooting." This man, Price added, "was carrying something in his hand," which "could have been a gun" or "a head piece" (a hat).

Jack Lawrence and His Borrowed Car

About a month before the assassination, a man named Jack Lawrence was hired at Downtown Lincoln-Mercury, a Dallas car dealership that was only two blocks from Dealey Plaza. Lawrence got the job by providing job references from New Orleans. These references were later found to be phony. Lawrence was known as an ardent right-wing speaker, and reportedly had been an expert marksmen in the military. The night before the assassination, Lawrence borrowed a car from the dealership, saying he needed it for a date.

Lawrence did not show up for work in the morning. However, thirty minutes after the shooting, he came hurrying through the company's show room. He was pale and sweating and had mud on his clothes. He rushed into the men's room and threw up. He claimed he had been ill, and that he had tried to return the car but was forced to park it because of traffic. His co-workers became suspicious and called the police. Later, the car Lawrence had borrowed was found--it was discovered in the parking lot behind the wooden fence on the grassy knoll (Marrs 339-340; Groden and Livingstone 133-134).

Lawrence was arrested by the Dallas police that evening. However, like other potentially important suspects who were arrested that day, he was released in short order and with little or no investigation into who he was or what he had been doing at the time of the shooting. Lawrence left Dallas as soon as he was released."

http://www.kenrahn.com/jfk/the_critics/griffith/Grassy_knoll_and_shots_from_front.html

[k-robjoe]

25. Jesse Curry

"Jesse Curry: Curry was the chief of the Dallas Police Department. Curry stated in his famous book on the assassination that he believed one of the shots came from in front of the limousine."

http://www.kenrahn.com/jfk/the_critics/griffith/Grassy_knoll_and_shots_from_front.html

[k-robjoe]

26. Seymour Weitzman

"dflprincess" wrote :

>"it makes it a little easier to understand how other witnesses caved in."

Yes.

Seymour Weitzman was there when they found the rifle and identified it as a Mauser. He apparently turned into a nervous wreck :

"He mentioned that exactly other people that are somehow witnesses of the situation, or part of the investigation, died mysteriously. He mentioned some lady that was somehow ran over by a car in a situation that was very mysterious. Other people who were healthy supposedly had heart attacks, and he felt that somebody, or somehow a situation developed into which to talk would be dangerous. (...) His hands tremor; it is obviously very upsetting for him."

Dr. Laburda reporting what Seymour Weitzman told him.

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/hsca_180-10077-10208 ( page 11 )

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/documents

[k-robjoe]

29. "we needed closure at the time"

This is what John Connally said about the Warren Commision, according to Doug Thompson :

"Connally's mood darkened as he talked about Dallas. When the bullet hit him, he said he felt like he had been kicked in the ribs and couldn't breathe. He spoke kindly of Jackie Kennedy and said he admired both her bravery and composure.

I had to ask. Did he think Lee Harvey Oswald fired the gun that killed Kennedy?

"Absolutely not," Connally said. "I do not, for one second, believe the conclusions of the Warren Commission."

So why not speak out?

"Because I love this country and we needed closure at the time. I will never speak out publicly about what I believe." "

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_doug_tho_060330_is_deception_the_bes.htm

[SDuderstadt]

30. Physical evidence...

dude.

3 separate investigations since the WC confirmed their conclusions.

I'm willing to bet you've never read either the WCR or Bugliosi's book.

[k-robjoe]

31. Richard Carr

"Just before President John F. Kennedy was shot Carr saw a heavy-set man with horn-rimmed glasses and a tan sport jacket on the sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository.

After the shooting Carr saw the man emerge from the building. Carr followed the man and later told the FBI: "This man, walking very fast, proceeded on Houston Street south to Commerce Street to Record Street. The man got into a 1961 or 1962 gray Rambler station wagon which was parked just north of Commerce Street on Record Street." This evidence corroborated those claims made by Roger Craig. Both Carr and Craig described the driver of the car as being dark-skinned.

Carr's story was not believed by the authorities. The Warren Commission did not call him as a witness nor was he mentioned in any of their published evidence. A FBI agent told him that: "If you didn't see Lee Harvey Oswald in the School Book Depository with a rifle, you didn't see it." Later, several members of the Dallas Police Department raided his house in the middle of the night. They claimed that they were looking for stolen goods but he was not charged with any offence.

Carr also received threatening phone calls telling him to leave Texas. He moved to Montana. Later he found dynamite taped to his car ignition. Just before he testified in the New Orleans trial of Clay Shaw a gunman attempted to kill him. Another attempt on his life took place in Atlanta. This time he was stabbed but he managed to kill one of the two men who attacked him."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKcarrR.htm

[SDuderstadt]

32. Dude...

all the employees of the TSBD were accounted for. Do you really expect us to believe that some guy who didn't belong there strolled outside after the shooting and no one challenged him or told someone about it???

This is what drives me crazy about conspiracists. Little to no critical thinking skills,

[k-robjoe]

33. I don´t expect he used the main entrance. n/t

[SDuderstadt]

34. Jesus, dude...

How did he get from the 6th to the 1st floor without being seen? How did he get IN the building without being seen? How did he know he wouldn't be discovered on the 6th floor?

You're proving my point, dude.

[k-robjoe]

35. How did Oswald

get down from the sixth floor without being seen?

[SDuderstadt]

36. Dude...

There were numerous employees that saw him before he left the TSBD and he was confronted by a Dallas motorcycle cop IN THE FUCKING BUILDING!!

Do you know ANYTHING about the assassination?

[k-robjoe]

37. You don´t understand

my question. How did he get down from the sixth floor to the second floor without anyone seeing or hearing him?

And how could he know noone would surprise him on the sixth floor?

[SDuderstadt]

38. I fucking give up...

this really is pointless.

[defendandprotect]

3. Yes -- from the beginning many witnesses identified a fuscillage of shots fired

at the very end -- and it has always looked like two shots on the head --

from two different directions.


And, again, as Jackie Kennedy has told us from the beginning -- and as Clint Hill has

made clear -- much of the president's head was shot off -- massive wound to rear of head.

What Jackie Kennedy told us immediately made it dangerous for her as the cover up began.

Autopsy report was changed -- "below" became "above" -- in the report - "puncture" became

"laceration" -----

And, Jackqueline Kennedy's testimony was altered. A classic example of this is the

manner in which FBI reports are written two says -- one for the pubic and one for the file.

That's the report of Harrison Livinstone in High Treason I

[zappaman]

5. duh

one of the shots came from the driver.
a careful analysis of the zapruder film clearly shows the driver turning and firing the fatal shot.

[deconstruct911]

7. Is there any better evidence than

the fact no secret service agent was on the bumper behind Kennedy?

If any order was given ahead of time to the agent assigned to that job he looks fairly confused.

[SDuderstadt]

10. Dude...

if you'd bother to do a modicum of research, you'd find a number of pictures of JFK motorcades prior to 11/22/63 in which not only were no SS agents on the rear bumper or, for that matter, anywhere on the limo.

Duh.

[IScreamSundays]

19. Dude.....

Is it not clear from the myriad of films available that the SS men CLEARLY stepped away from the limo JFK was riding in?????????

[SDuderstadt]

20. Because they were previously assigned elsewhere...

contrary to what conspiracists claim, it wasn't necessarily standard practice to have agents on the back bumper. You can easily Google a picture of JFK's limo a mere 4 days before in Tampa...no agents.

What you guys think are "smoking guns" are laughable.

[Mefistofeles]

27. How can a picture prove that at no point there were agents on the bumpers?

A picture records less than a split second of action. Trust me. Presidential visits last longer than that.

[SDuderstadt]

28. Duh...

it proves they aren't there all the time...

[Cetacea]

14. So. Regarding the the latter images of the Zapruder film:

Any alternative explanations on the sudden distortion to the rear of the head?

[greyl]

16. No one, including CTs, wants to discuss the latter images of the Zap film. nt