9/11 was an inside job

[JackRiddler]

9/11 was anticipated and stage-managed by the administration, members of whom had foreknowledge of and engaged in active preparation for the attacks. The response by the high command and military on the day provides ample prima facie evidence that the attacks were allowed to proceed deliberately (letting it happen on purpose=LIHOP), with the principles feigning surprise and intentionally circumventing defensive response. Investigations that could have uncovered the alleged hijackers were systematically repressed prior to the attacks. Specific and robust warnings were received (and acted upon) by operators around the world. The trail of the alleged hijackers leads us through an apparatus of surveillance and support run by networks connected to the longstanding Bush/CIA mafia (not to be confused with but certainly reaching into the real institutional CIA). The evidence points to the original Bojinka plot having been uncovered years before its execution, taken over and financed by foreign agency and private entities contracted to the covert networks surrounding the Bush mob, and seen through to its fruition as a planned matter of covert policy, to achieve exactly the effects we have seen (which were openly planned in advance: the wars, the domestic changes, the shifting of trillions of dollars in resources and spending). The figure of "Osama bin Ladin" as mastermind is as dubious and obvious as that of "Zarqawi" as mastermind of the Iraqi insurgency. (Look at all the faked Osama video and audio tapes.) 9/11 was an intentional "New Pearl Harbor." The primary perpetrators hold office in the administration and surround our government as its contractors and advisers. All of the official investigations since 9/11 have served to obscure and whitewash these realities, either deliberately or by simple omission of the likely alternative hypoteheses to the "incompetence paradigm." The obvious avoidance of all key questions about 9/11 by the Congress and Commission serve to confirm that there is a cover-up. 9/11 as inside job is a logical culmination of the history of the national security state and worldwide terror apparatus based in US agencies, dating back to its founding period after the Second World War. It is an equally logical culmination of the history of the Bush mob since they came to power in the mid-1970s. The precedents for false-flag terrorism commited by states upon their own people for the purpose of rule-by-fear and to justify wars are legion. It is a normal and systemic consequence, possible to anticipate many years in advance given the overall crisis and need to mobilize hearts and minds on behalf of an otherwise doomed system of power. This is by far the most robust paradigm for explaining the available facts.

And so you must proceed from the presumption that any future 9/11 is also an inside job, unless proven otherwise. If you want to have any impact on the environment after a new attack, you have got to spread the word about the old one now.

[liberal N proud]

1. See link below: Simplifying the case against Dick Cheney

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2972225&mesg_id=2972225&page=

[trezic]

2. I love seeing the same old conspiracy theories

trotted out repeatedly. You do realize this is the same line of shit levied at EVERY wartime president in the 20th century? It's like a game of mad libs, just replace the names as needed!

[Bluebear]

4. "It's like a game of mad libs"

Okie dokie.

[burythehatchet]

100. its sorta like

NO...Daddy did not put his weewee in mommy...NO it's not true....

[bpilgrim]

5. i love how some dismiss out of hand facts based on past conspiracy theory

:crazy:

peace

[Zero Gravitas]

12. there are no "facts" that support this rubbish

[bpilgrim]

17. plenty of facts, unanswered questions, and leads that all point to this

conclusion beginning with the 2001 Aug. 6th PDB, bush and his 'dream-team' the ONLY able bodied americans who didn't REACT on that horrid day. the whole attack took almost TWO hours yet even the PENTAGON was struck, other buildings falling in their own footprints ie wtc7, on and on...

:hi:

peace

[Zero Gravitas]

32. If only

If only MIHOP supporters could construct a scenario that relied on actual reality-based facts instead of untruths like "buildings falling in their own footprints" you might be taken seriously. No buildings fell in their own footprint, not WTC1, WTC2 or WTC7.

If you could use actual facts to support your ideas you (meaning MIHOPers in general not "bpilgrim" in particular) wouldn't be dismissed as crackpots. But, no, you have to distort or just make up stuff like this "falling in their footprint" nonsense.

If the towers fell in their own footprints how come buildings for blocks in all direction's of the tower's "footprints" were several damaged? easy, the towers did not fall in their own footprints.

[bpilgrim]

39. untruths like "buildings falling in their own footprints" -------> FLASH

of wtc7 falling in it's own footprint.

http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/wtc7.swf

there are plenty of others with towers 1 and 2...

peace

[franksumatra]

102. strange how mentioning WTC7 gets threads locked

and produces cat calls, as if detractors of this 'theory' are suggesting martians did it. when we stop questioning the bush empire, it's too late for us.

[DoYouEverWonder]

60. The fact that no one in the top command positions reacted appropriately

should be proof enough that 9-11 was a MIHOP event


On Sept 11, 2001 at about 9:00 AM Bush arrived at Booker Elementary. When Bush stepped out of the limo, he already knew that a passenger jet had hit the WTC and that there were other hijacked planes in the air. Bush wasn't the only one who knew this. Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Myers, Tenet were all told about, or saw on TV, the first attack. By 9:00 AM all of them knew that a terrorist attack was in progress.

All four planes were scheduled to take off by 8:01 AM. If everything had gone according to plan, then by 9:00 - 9:15 AM at the latest, the attack should have been over. However, two of the planes took off late, with flight 93 taking off 45 minutes behind schedule.

If all of the planes had left on time, Bush wouldn't have gotten stuck sitting in a 2nd grade classroom reading, My Pet Goat, waiting for the attack to finish.

Cheney wouldn't have had to just sit in his office with Condi watching the attack on CNN but otherwise not reacting, until the SS came to drag him out, when they found out a plane might be heading to DC.

Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz wouldn't have had to continue with their meeting, claiming that they didn't think there was anything they could do about the attack at that point anyway.

Myers wouldn't have had to go into Max Cleland's office, leaving instructions with the secretary not to disturb them.

Tenet would not have finished breakfast in DC and then tried to drive through DC traffic, all the way to Langley, VA before checking in.

Now I can understand one or two people reacting inappropriately, but not every single person in the top leadership positions. The only reason I can come up with to explain all of these odd reactions is that they knew. They knew what was going down and they had to wait for it to be over before they could react.

[Sequoia]

26. There were no FACTS to support the WMD RUBBISH either.

Everything is so hunky dory ain't it, everyone is so truthful and would never harm their own people ya think? Open your eyes, listen. The hated the towers because it messed up the skyline of New York. They were out of date, and just a white elephant and someone sure made money off the insurance now didn't they. Come on, THEY wanted a war and what better way to provoke it than to attack their own using and whipping up hatered and getting those Arabs, trained in FLORIDA, to do the deed. No blood on our hands, see.

[Zero Gravitas]

35. Indeed

And I for one never beleived there were these big scary stockpiles of WMDs in Iraq. Its the MIHOPers who need to open their eyes and minds and think logicaly.

[bobbyboucher]

109. I'm afraid you are guilty of what you suggest

these others are guilty of doing. You might want to take your blinders off.

[franksumatra]

104. WMD's?...what a silly conspiracy theory

as in the many different lee harvey oswald's that were running around making scenes before JFK's murder.

[JackRiddler]

6. Maybe there is a reason...

for the consistency with which such accusations are raised that lies in the actions of the accused, rather than the thinking of the accusers?

Sorry, none of the presidents of the 20th century are my friends. I can think of a couple who tried to be different, and took it on the chin - or in the head.

Way to go for unthinking blanket dismissals in complete absence of argument or evidentiary presentation, by the way. Just chuck your stone and duck into your hole, lightweight.

[trezic]

23. Ducks

The form is exactly like the attacks on Wilson, FDR, Truman, Kennedy, and LBJ. If it walks like a duck...

Those who believe in conspiracy theories are afraid of the world. It takes a weak spirit to be so powerfully dependent on the idea of 'them.'

As for calling me a lightweight...

You find the accusations credible on basis of repetition. That reminds me of the guy from the Austin Powers movies who would answer a question when asked 3 times. Cute.

People who don't share in delusions aren't sheep.

[MsTryska]

27. Hey - you've got all the answers.

can you tell me why years later we still haven't 'caught" that 6foot tall arab carting a dialysis machine that's supposed to be responsible for all this?


we could dig saddam out of a hideyhole, but this one is too crafty for us?

[trezic]

33. Maybe

it's the fact that Afghanistan is a forgotten war? There's not even 1/10 of the forces there as in Iraq. Add in the fact that the region he's most likely in is mountainous.

You might as well ask how a criminal can stay on the run for years without being caught. Lack of manpower and plenty of hiding places.

[MsTryska]

45. but....WHY is this war forgotten?

doesn't that make you twinge at all?



Here we know exactly who brought down the symbol of our financial power, killing thousands in the largest attack on our soil, and we "forget" about the war there, let the perpetrator go, and don't follow up on punishing any of the countries that really do sponsor terrorism, like ohh, i dunno...Saudi Arabia, where most of the hijackers from, not to mention the mastermind belongs to their royal family? Who coincedentally the cabal in power has been quite close to for several decades now?


this doesn't strike you as hmm..just a little bit odd?

i understand it sounds wacky to you. It would have soudned wacky to me too. But one day, going through PNACs documents, it struck me, and horrified me.

i remember coming ehre and posting about it, thinking i was saying soemthing revolutionaryt, and apparently it was incredibly passe as it had been talked to death years before i ever came to think of it. Still amde em want to curl up in fetal position and process it for a week or so.

[Lone Pawn]

72. The war is forgotten because it no longer serves US geopolitical interests

Osama bin Laden is now realistically not worth the resources it would require to find him—we've let AQ become a hydra, and capturing him would, while not diminishing AQ's power, give them a martyr figure to rally around.

We simply can't invade Saudi Arabia. We can't. We have an oil-based economy. We're already six inches away from having the entire Muslim world convinced we're out to destroy Islam. Invading Saudi Arabia and occupying Mecca would not only result in an OPEC embargo (not to mention liberal "BLOOD FOR OIL" screams), but also start a full-blown guerilla war—with most of the Mideast.

Also, OBL is not a member of the House of Saud. I know F911 might have made it look like that if you weren't paying attention, but do try to factcheck if there's a possibility you've misunderstood. The Bush Administration is close to the House of Saud by virtue of their being oilmen. Not in the best interests of the US, but not exactly a grand conspiracy.

If you want to know about PNAC, their website is a good place to start. Also, go to the library and check out some international affairs journals. Kagan and Fukuyama are both pretty good at explaining the neocon plans.

[MsTryska]

79. You're right - i misspoke about him being part of the royal family

he's not - jsut part of a family (albeit a large one) very close to the royal family.


This does not mean that the current cabal is not close with his family, as in fact, they are.



as for the many headed hydra, who's fault is that really? if we'd focused our efforts on AQ, rather than Iraq - would we have such a problem right now in 2005? My guess is no. But why bring Iraq in the mix? it seems illogical ont he surface, UNTIL you read PNACs documents, and understand the importance of Iraq ro grand scheme.


ANd yes Saudi Arabia is a tough nut to crack, but why say that what you're going to do is punish any state that sponsors terrorism, unless it is a grand misdirect?

[Lone Pawn]

164. Of course the Hydra effect is our fault.

But I'm saying that just like it was stupid for Bush to attack the enemy of 10 years ago in Iraq, OBL is the urgent enemy of four years ago.

Iraq is of course a neocon venture. I don't deny it. In fact, I likely know far more about the neoconservative movement then you do, being a former member of it (you see, I attend the University of Chicago, whose Polisci and Econ departments spawned the movement.)

Saudi Arabia isn't a "tough nut to crack." Iraq is a tough nut to crack. Saudi Arabia is a "nut which is actually filled with antimatter in magnetic suspension such that even brushing against it in a slightly crack-like motion would be instant death for you and the entire city in which you live." Geopolitics isn't about black and white rules or maxims. It's about the game. You can't take every chessman on the board at once.

[demodewd]

166. remember the Wahabis

If the Wahabis take over SA we'll be in there in a Riyadh second.

[vincent_vega_lives]

215. The only place its a "forgotten war" is in the media

For one thing, the infrastructure can't support significantly more soldiers in Afghanistan. We have no port or over land access. All logistics, parts, heavy equipment, force structure, all has to be flown in. VERY hard to sustain a significant force over an extended period using only air.

Using SOF backed up by a BCT of conventional troops is an economy of force mission. Most bang for the buck. Any more would be diminishing returns.

[vincent_vega_lives]

214. Simple

'Cuz. He's most likley in Pakistan border region, and they are reluctant to let US Forces cross the border. Musharrif is between a rock an a hard place, and will only support the US effort enought to keep the perks coming.

Osama has acess even now to a network of terrorists around the world and millions of dollers.

[Just Me]

28. In my opinion, the theories pertaining to 9/11 are investigative in nature

Although you use that RW "conspiracy theory" language a LOT, I personally consider the various investigations of the 9/11 event rational and helpful.

I also believe that a willingness to explore/investigate demonstrates a strength and a fearlessness.

[demodewd]

165. re: THEM

Those who believe in conspiracy theories are afraid of the world. It takes a weak spirit to be so powerfully dependent on the idea of 'them.'

Just remember who the Administration so protectively and pervasively wants us to fear. THEM.

[vincent_vega_lives]

216. So in four years all our problems are just going to

fade away? There was no terrorist threat to the US prior to 2000?

[demodewd]

241. we need terrorism

There is a terrorist threat,often created and financed by Western intelligence. Terrorism is necessary for the perpetuation of the Federal Government's fiscal outlay and geopolitical strategy in the upcoming years.Fighting "terrorism" is our new growth industry. It fills that big gaping economic chasm that we would slide into called severe recession or worse without it.

How much does the CIA and other intelligence agencies through proxies contribute to terrorism? How much does the corporatacracy of the American economic system contribute to the growth of guerilla movements aka terrorism? How much does American imperialistic policy that disallows National movements that insist upon a fairer distribution of the petroleum and other valuable resources bounty contribute to terrorism?

Terrorism goes hand in hand with American imperalistic policy. It is the rational for the implantation of American and other pro-Western forces in over 100 countries. If a country has exploitable resources,we'll be there and no doubt "terrorism" will be our rational be it really a national groundswell against the designs of the World Bank and the IMF. We need terrorism. It fuels our economy and perpetuates our global dominance.

[vincent_vega_lives]

242. Interesting theory

How do you account for times before terrorism as we know it, prior to 1972? How did the US get buy then, like in the 1950's? What about the 1990's, prior to the WAR ON TERROR?

Sure past US Foreign policy has contributed to the growth of terrorism, namely the support for the creation of the State of Israel, but that certainly doesn't mean that was the intent of those polices, unless you think the US GOVERNMENT is omnipotent.

Guerilla movments utilize terror as a tactic, but they are not synonomous.

[demodewd]

246. re:interesting theory

Many guerilla and insurgency movements are a result of US corporate policy in conjunction with the World Bank and the IMF encroachment on indigeous people's lands and resources.The Administration often characterizes these movements as terrorist organizations. It's a method corporate America has used since the end of WW2.Play along or expect the CIA to plot assassination and rebellion.

Weaken the Central State...balkanize...privatize...and then occupy if necessary. It is a globalist land and resource grab to especially dominate oil and protect the dollar which cannot tank without our economy tanking with it. Therefore we need to dominate petrodollar transactions. Saddam was dealing in euros.

We are an Empire. We can only sustain the Empire by these methods. Terrorism is essentially a front. That is not to say that it isn't real and to some extent a threat to us. But it would need to be manufactured if it didn't already exist. 911 implanted in the American public the needed mindset for the TPTB to implement their aggressive geopolitical policies with the consent of a generally passive and supportive public. It is working.

[vincent_vega_lives]

248. re: "re:interesting theory"

Many guerrilla and insurgency movements are a result of US corporate policy in conjunction with the World Bank and the IMF encroachment on indigenous people's lands and resources.

Can you be more specific?

The Administration often characterizes these movements as terrorist organizations.

Which ones.

It's a method corporate America has used since the end of WW2.Play along or expect the CIA to plot assassination and rebellion.

Which corporations? Which CEOs are plotting these plots?

Weaken the Central State...balkanize...privatize...and then occupy if necessary.

Which "Central States" have been balkanized, privatized and then occupied? All this vagueness.

It is a globalist land and resource grab to especially dominate oil and protect the dollar which cannot tank without our economy tanking with it.

The US hasn't been very successfully in it's "land and resource grab".
The dollar has tanked, and the only thing that has tanked with it is American tourist's wallets.

Therefore we need to dominate petrodollar transactions. Saddam was dealing in euros.

Saddam was dealing in anything he could get his hands on.

We are an Empire. We can only sustain the Empire by these methods.

Hardly. The empires of the 19th and early 20th century went away mostly because they became prohibitively expensive to maintain. The US economy is robust enough to sustain itself without terrorism.

Terrorism is essentially a front. That is not to say that it isn't real and to some extent a threat to us. But it would need to be manufactured if it didn't already exist. 911 implanted in the American public the needed mindset for the TPTB to implement their aggressive geopolitical policies with the consent of a generally passive and supportive public. It is working.

So when does your awareness of history start...2000?

[demodewd]

249. re re re

Many of the "terrorist" organizations are a result of people being displaced off their lands by multinational coorporations,most of these being US centered.Particularly the oil companies(as well as major agribusiness) are the culprits.This is happening in the Phillipines,Indonesia(Aceh comes to mind, Central and South America(displaced indigenous tribes),Mexico(Chiapas),Peru etc. Many of these displaced and angry people are Islamic or have Maoist ties. But their main objective is to regain the lands and rights that have been taken away from them. It is convenient for the Bush Administration to label all such movements as "terrorist"and by doing so facilitating the movements of troops in those areas. We have troops in over 100 countries. Allegedly in most cases to fight terrorism. Where there's resources to be privatized you can bet the US is influencing the local body politic and doing everything it can to prohibit nationalist movements.

Countries that have been victimized by economic hit men,CIA(or CIA surragates) or the US military since 1945 that I know of...Iran,Iraq,Guatamala,Panama,Ecuador,Chile,ElSalvador,Kosovo,Saudi Arabia,Pakistan,Indonesia,Uzbekistan,Phillipines,Malaysia,Dominican Republic,Haiti,Ukraine.

Yugoslavia has been balkanized. The former Soviet Union. Setting up independent sovereign states is not bad in itself but balkanization implies Western insistance on privatization of resources and an open labor sector which weakens the state and puts the power into multinationals and world banking.

Its not the US per se but US corporations in conjunction with US policy and military might,the major oil companies,Bechtel,Halliburton,Brown and Root etc that move into the weakened states to privatize water rights,oil drilling rights etc.Just look what is going in Iraq. Laws establishing international ownership of water and oil and the squashing of union organizing.One thing is for sure..we will not let the new Iraqi government nationalize their oil.

Saddam was dealing in euros for all of Iraq's oil transactions. His defiance by using Euros was a direct threat to US dominance of International petrodollar transactions. This is why all countries dealing in oil ,selling or buying, have large cash reserves of dollars.Can you imagine how the dollar would plummet if countries began dealing in petroeuros instead of dollars?

We can only sustain our empire by continuing to bilk the weaker nations of their resources and exploiting their cheap labor and continuing to stronghand our currency around the world. 52 of the top 100 economies of the world are corporations and 47 of those 52 corporations are located in the US. Yes,empire is to the American public expensive to maintain but as long as we get diverted by wedge issues and the economy doesn't tank we seem content to buying into the globalist scheme.

I suggest you read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins.

[kixot]

9. The problem with a flippant dismissal of this particular theory is:

We exist under a government where this scenario has been proposed and considered before for similar outcomes and creation of beneficial circumstances, beneficial to those with vetted interest in the outcome. Look into "Project Northwoods" and you will se that not only is it possible, it's actually LIKELY that we are being manipulated and fooled into this war that just so happens to be coincidentally properous to those pushing forth the notion with the greatest effort and fervor.

Take a gander at the following links and then ask yourself if it's possible or not. I think you may have some reconsideration to do.

http://www.aztlan.net/northwoods.htm
http://www.aztlan.net/lavoz_northwoods/northwoods2.htm

[Just Me]

36. Some theories prove out to be actual conspiracies, huh!

I tend to be suspicious of those who "flippantly" characterize such investigations as mere "conspiracy theories" because I've heard the right-wing use that term in such abusive fashion in order to just shut people up.

[geek tragedy]

207. Aztlan is a bona fide HATE site. I won't read those links, thank you. eom

[The Magistrate]

208. Still, Mr. Tragedy

Those who seek to peddle swill are in the unfortunate position of needing to resort to places where swill can be had in abundance. One of the interesting things about this entire debate is the frequency of resort to sites of the most ultra-right nature to support and argue for a case being presented as the acme of left opposition to the current regime....

[geek tragedy]

209. Indeed, a most peculiar triangulation occurs.

Left-wing nuts rely upon paleocons and Nazis, thereby providing fodder for and supporting the libels propagated by the David Horowitz right against the left.

[The Magistrate]

210. And In Many Cases, Sir

Those who thus draw their sustenance from the same swamps as militiamen and posse comitatus types accuse anyone who disagree with them of being shills for the right wing.

It is a funny damned world we live in, eh?

[geek tragedy]

211. Funny, and rather frightening at the same time. Kind of like watching our

Pharisee-in-Chief speak extemperaneously.

[rachelbirds]

10. God, you are so right!!!

More of the Same!!

[bobbyboucher]

111. No, he's dead wrong.

They knew it was coming. They either got out of the way or snafued the response. No way the arabs could have gotten away with it. You are in denial.

[Carl Brennan]

29. Like Operation Northwoods

Now there is an enigma wrapped in a riddle.

[vincent_vega_lives]

217. "Operation" Northwoods was a piece of paper

Nothing mysterious about it. It was about Cuba, and was rejected by the administration at the time as ludicrous. It has NO corilation with 9-11.

Also I read it. It was meant as a deception, not murder.

[EVDebs]

152. Yeah, where are those lone gunmen when you need them this time ?

Wargames on 9-11, Vigilant Warrior etc, and Ptech (as Saudi software company with intell and FAA access), and lots of whistleblowers who are ignored....Yep. It would be neater and cleaner this time out, and hey, Robert Stinnett's book "Day of Deceit" about FDR and preknowledge of Pearl Harbor...he is NO liberal.

[jackster]

3. I've been thinking about this for some time....

the PNAC wish for a new Pearl Harbor and Bush's rise to POTUS just before 9/11 is just too "coincidental" for me. But Bush's response to 9/11 in that classroom appeared to be genuine paralyzing fear. Is it possible that he was kept out of the loop?

[bpilgrim]

7. bush did not REACT at ALL

everyone in the country REACTED that horrid day, cept him... that is the tell.

peace

[suegeo]

19. Rumsfeld didn't react

He was sitting at his desk when the plane hit the pentagon. Hell, even I knew what was going before the plane hit the pentagon.

Why was the Sec. of Defence just sitting there doing paperwork, instead of responding to a crisis? Some of the possible answers to that question are pretty scary.

[anarchy1999]

24. Thanks and welcome to DU.

I've never in all this time thought along this line. You blown me away. Like I said, thanks and welcome to DU.

Note: I beleive in all the posters on this board. Especially the elders, of which bpilgrim is one.

(You're with a good bunch of people).

[jackster]

37. glad to be here....

I think you're the first person to welcome me!

[anarchy1999]

44. Forgive us all. Lots of pain and passion makes alot of us forget our

manners, apologies to everyone new.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

73. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[JohnyCanuck]

40. Looks like Cheney was acting as C in C.

while Bushbot continued on with the really important stuff reading about pet goats and shooting the shit with the kiddies' teachers at the photo op.

When 9/11 occurred, the legal framework was in place to allow the Secret Service to take supreme command over any and all American agencies, including the Air Force. 6

Richard Clarke writes in Against All Enemies: "I was amazed at the speed of the decisions coming from Cheney and, through him, from Bush." 7 This is to be expected. Everything was in place for the Commander in Chief to be calling all the shots as the 9/11 plot unfolded, but Bush was in an elementary school reading about goats with Secret Service agents right beside him.

Bush's Secret Service detail was in real-time communication not only with the FAA, but also the PEOC (Presidential Emergency Operations Center), into which Dick Cheney had reportedly been whisked by the Secret Service. While Bush continued his elementary school photo-op after being told, "America is under attack," Ari Fleischer - according to the Washington Times, 10/7/02 - caught the president's eye and held up a handwritten sign that said "DON'T SAY ANYTHING YET." 8 Bush was intentionally being kept out of the decision-making loop during the critical moments of 9/11. The Vice President has no place in the official military chain of command.9 (emphasis mine /jc)

From Simplifying The Case Against Cheney, at:
www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/011805_simplify_case.shtml

[JackRiddler]

8. Start here

911truth.org

[anarchy1999]

14. Sure, did you ever think Poppy might still be running it all, along with

all his old cronies. This is classic. Put the "idiot" son in as "king" while you work and your pals work behind. Front. Just go back and see who is back now.

On edit:

Added +, "idiot" son appeals to the masses of Christian Fundamentalists that believe in the "Rapture" and that Bush was "chosen" to lead "us". This includes the "Nascar" dads, Soccer/Security moms, SUV driving idgits and all the rest of the "Kool-Aid" drinking Rove crew. Bushbot keeps them all in line, God said so, don't you know.

[jackster]

47. I'm not so sure about Poppie tho....

the neocons might surround him but I'm not sure that he IS one.... I wonder if they just be using georgie and poppie

of course, jeb is an original PNAC member and as the "smart" one in the family he would be the exception

btw, watch for him to replace Cheney sometime in the next 4 years - he'll be out of a job before long and a stint as vp will give him experience to take over as the next sun king

[Old and In the Way]

81. Poppy spent the evening of 9/10 at the WH. Dimson was in Florida.

Wanna bet he and Cheney spent some quality time together that evening?

And in light of the known terrorist simulation (Vigilant Guardian)going on the same day and time, I wonder if perhaps those "terrorists" weren't part of the simulated games.

Were 77 (Pilot Burlingame was a planner for this exercise?), 175, 11, and 93 on the roster for the simulated exercise?

And why did Cheney want to give the Senate Intelligence committee lie-detector tests for leaking word about the intercepted message about the "game being on"?

And why was the WH taking Cipro before any of the Anthrax attacks became public knowledge?

And why did Cheney threaten Daschle about asking questions concerning 9/11...before getting his weapons grade Anthrax in the mail?

And why did Bush have an executive order on his desk authorizing action against the Taliban on 9/10...awaiting his signature?

And why don't we know who traded in the AA/UA stocks prior to 9/11?

And why were key obstructionists at the FBI given promotions after 9/11?

And why was the Pentagon hit 52 minutes after the 2nd WTC crash?

And why didn't these questions get asked and answered in the 9/11 Commission hearings?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

146. Not to mention that the hundreds of pages of the Patriot Act...

which went to Committee on October 5, must been at least outlined before 9/11, There is no way, not even using teams of lawyers working round the clock, that they could have conceived of the idea, drafted the provisions, checked them against existing laws, and prepared the final edition in three weeks unless they had had it at least sketched out.

That was my initial suspicion (I know how long it takes just to translate a document of a hundred pages or more, never mind writing it), and I confirmed it with a retired law school professor who had acted as an advisor to the Oregon legislature.

[vincent_vega_lives]

218. Vigilant Guardian

The VIGILANT GUARDIAN (VG) is a VIGILANT OVERVIEW (VO) Command Post Exercise (CPX) conducted in conjunction with USCINCSTRAT-sponsored GLOBAL GUARDIAN and USCINCSPACE-sponsored APOLLO GUARDIAN exercises. The exercise involves all HQ NORAD levels of command and is designed to exercise most aspects of the NORAD mission. One VG is scheduled each year and the length will vary depending on the exercise scenario and objectives.

Vigilant Guardian is a CPX. Command Post Exercise. That means there are NO acutal forces involved, only computer simulated.

[DulceDecorum]

21. But what of

the Secret Service?
They grabbed Cheney under the armpits and hustled him into the bunker.
He didn't have much say.

Mind you,
there must have been some compelling reason
BESIDES genuine paralyzing fear,
as to why he remained in his seat
and then was seen in different clothing.

Incontinence?

Macho studs like SS men are usually terrified of soggy diapers.
They would not have evacuated him
but rather would have walked around in small circles
holding their heads and saying "sh*t"
while he sat there
with a strange look upon his face,
trying not to frighten the children.

[Hoping4Change]

22. If he was genuinely paralysed by fear he is worth less than sh*t..

If people care about others concern overrides fear. Peole run into burning buildings, parents sacrifice themselves to save their children. True leaders go into high gear and take charge. If that asswipe was paralyzed by fear he is a worthless, spiritually empty, piece of trash.

[arbitror78]

11. but really?

Come on man... What motive could our government possibly have? I give credence to the theory about Pearl Harbor, but that's because there was a clear motive.

[Bridget Burke]

15. Bush's popularity was in the toilet on 9/10.

Newsweek was about to print a story on what really happened in Florida during the election.

A few minutes of sitting like a doofus in a Florida classroom, a quick flight around the country & he's become a popular wartime president!

[goddess40]

16. The motive for 9/11

is perfectly clear. It gave the Administration a reason to use fear to make the populace easy to manipulate. And guess what, it worked. It also gave * an excuse to go into Iraq, something the neocons have wanted to do for years.

[SammyWinstonJack]

25. Lucky me, I hit the Trifecta. n/t

[vincent_vega_lives]

222. Thats a motive?

He certainly could have gone in anyway. Bush had wanted a showdown with Iraq before 9-11 anyway. He didn't need to murder 3,000 people to do it. So now murdering your fellow citizens is an accepted way for the electorate to "manipulate" the populace? Bush is a moron but he ain't Joe Stalin.

A president and his what must be hundreds if not thousands of accomplices would have to be pure sociopaths to pull this off. And sociopaths, while can operate normally in society, don't just turn their behavior on and off. They keep exercising their pathology. Evidence of this behavior would have been going on since their early teens. Paranoid Schizophrenia could be another cause, but that is much harder to conceal.

So folks that consider MIHOP or even LIHOP possible either have a very warped sense of human behavior, or are themselves lacking certain frontal lobe activity.

[Democrat Dragon]

250. BushCo. wanted to invade Afganistan before 9/11

The Taliban didn't let them install the pipeline.

If you think us "Loony Conspiracy Theorists" are crazy considering that a governament can fake a terroist attack, consider how the Reichstag Fire helped Hitler get elected and how it may have been done by his own party.

and consider this quote:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

and this:

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor..."

- "Rebuilding America's Defenses", PNAC.

I'm giving you any "evidence" I am simply giving you the reason why some would consider LIHOP or MIHOP, cause they know that a terroist attack is somehting that has definately helped this regime.

[vincent_vega_lives]

255. Pipeline shmipeline

So we invaded, where's the PIPELINE?

Even Hitler wasn't crazy enough to think he could get away with killing 3,000 of his own citizens to take power, at least not randomly.

If I quote a KKK clansman on race issues will that make it true?

Regardless, any moron can make lofty statements in HINDSIGHT!. Goering was a moron.

Crisis brings about change? HOLY OBVIOUS POINT BATMAN! Bureaucratic inertia is well known within the Beltway.

If that's your reasoning...well...I just have no answer to it. :crazy:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

256. The pipleline is being built. It is no accident that "President" Karzai

worked for UNOCAL, and tried to get the pipeline built while the Taliban were in power.

Afghanistan Plans Pipeline

Afghanistan hopes to strike a deal later this month to build a $2bn pipeline through the country to take gas from energy-rich Turkmenistan to Pakistan and India.
Afghan interim ruler Hamid Karzai is to hold talks with his Pakistani and Turkmenistan counterparts later this month on Afghanistan's biggest foreign investment project, said Mohammad Alim Razim, minister for Mines and Industries told Reuters.

"The work on the project will start after an agreement is expected to be struck at the coming summit," Mr Razim said.

The construction of the 850-kilometre pipeline had been previously discussed between Afghanistan's former Taliban regime, US oil company Unocal and Bridas of Argentina.

The project was abandoned after the US launched missile attacks on Afghanistan in 1999.
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1984459.stm>

[vincent_vega_lives]

259. WAS to be built by Unocal

If the pipline was THE reason for the Bush administration to kill 3,000 people on 9-11, you would think there would be a little more sense of urgency to get it done, considering the current situation in Afghanistan.

Of course Afganistan want's the pipeline built. But is having a hard time finding investors. So much for that idea.

"Afghanistan would profit by receiving millions of dollars in transit fees and construction of the pipeline would provide thousands of desperately needed jobs.

It is also hoped such a project would boost regional economic ties and pave the way for further foreign investment.

The chief difficulty will be actually finding the money to build the pipeline.

The Asian Development Bank is carrying out a study for the project.

But investors will be very cautious about putting serious money into Afghanistan when the central government in Kabul still has only limited influence in the regions the pipeline would cross.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2608713.stm

[SoCalSweetie]

261. "This is a motive"

Bush didn't use the 9/11 attacks to merely invade Afghanistan although it worked,for many years the US and Afghanistan have been in negotiations with this country over the pipeline and invasion was inevitable as we needed to secure this country to make it possible,

The US was sued by Bridas Corporation in Argentina over this pipeline and guess who represented the US? Ben Veniste's law firm(9/11 commission) and one doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to see the conflicts of interest and then to connect the dots themselves as to why Bush picked his own jury without a criminal investigation,7 out of 10 panel members great gained and profited from the attacks,He used the attacks to proclaim a never ending war on terror (mainly in the middle east countries with oil)and to place the Patriot act on Americans to keep us living in fear & check!

[kixot]

18. What motive could government have?

That gets my vote for "most naive statement of the day". Read through a few chapters of Machiavelli's "The Prince" and you'll see instantly why such a thing would be beneficial to those in power who would wish to remain in power and create legacies, i.e. where the son follows the father as in the current administration.

[mikita]

20. you are too kind...

I would edit to "most naive statement of the last 4 years" AT LEAST!
Head. Meet. Sand.

[vincent_vega_lives]

223. So what happens to this "legacy"

In four years? Is Bush going to stay on for another term or two?

[meppie-meppie not]

257. next comes Jeb and after him his eldest son...they are grooming them

as we speak.

[jackster]

51. the clear motive

is the ascendancy of the Neoconservative Age - all outlined at the PNAC website

[JohnyCanuck]

54. Why not let Herman Goering tell you the government's motive

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

Validity of quote confirmed by snopes.com at

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm

[hang a left]

61. Motive you say?

All you have to do is to read the manifesto of Project for a New American Century. You will have all the motive you need.

[kysrsoze]

75. What motive? There are plenty:

1. UnoCal's (Hamid Karzai's former employer) plans for an Afghani natural gas pipeline
2. Saudi Arabia's desire for us to remove our standing army
3. Rebuilding contracts for Halliburton and KBR
4. Nullification of Iraq's standing oil contracts with Russia, France, etc., and privatization of Iraq's infrastructure
5. Carlyle Group's (Poppy Bush is a consultant) defense contracts for armored personnel carriers and weapons systems
6. PNAC determined it would be an easy jump from Iraq to Iran and Syria

What else do you need?

[radwriter0555]

85. Motive? Follow the money. Power and greed are the primary motives for

almost any crime.

[vincent_vega_lives]

224. Even Criminals...

respect the law of Risk vs Reward. What's the reward here? A nice nest egg for Bush and a few of his buddies? Another term? Commit mass murder for that? You think that's a motive?

[Old and In the Way]

87. The motive is well known.

Read Project for the New American Century and the signatories. They needed a catastrophic and catalyzing event, just like Pearl Harbor to invade the ME. Iraq, Iran, Syria...then Saudi Arabia. They were successful.

It's not "our government" that planned this. It was a group of neo-cons and imperialists who stole the 2000 election that decided to make it happen.

The actual planning is in the Cheney Energy policy meetings. We've seen the documents of the Iraqi oil fields divvied up....but Scalia and Cheney have kept the actual meeting minutes a state secret, so we can't impeach and try these bastards for treason.

[anarchy1999]

98. You are so on it and the BIG question IS WHY AREN'T WE? Goddammint.

n/t

I Want answers and I want Accountability. You are screwed, President, "you can't look at me" Bush. Let me get it straight, you are afraid of kids, playing in bands, coming from all over the country (hometowns paying for it), they can't look at you, is that right? How far do we have to go and how much do we have to pay for our freedom and security?

[vincent_vega_lives]

225. I think the MIHOP'ers

Over estimate the abilities of these supposed neocon conspirators, and dangerously underestimate Al Quaida.

[Name removed]

251. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Abe Linkman]

252. Mr. Scheer is right. Too many Bush9/11CTheorists rarely ? premises.

That might require THINKING and changing one's mind. Much easier to just go along with whatever the people who do the bidding of the rich and powerful say.

Don't you agree that it's very curious why so many NON-rich people would support the plans of outfits like PNAC & bushco? I think one good reason why that is the case, is because they don't THINK. Probably don't know how to, either.

[vincent_vega_lives]

253. Typical perpetual victim attitude Abe

There are plenty of NON-rich analysts, agents, soldiers, in the DOD, FBI, CIA, NSA who think Al Quaida exists, because they are closest to the source.

And many of these folks have been working through multiple administrations. They most likely know how to THINK better than you do Abe.

[Democrat Dragon]

254. it dosen't matter if they're rich or not

not everyone is a member of the "inner circle".

[bobbyboucher]

113. "What motive?" asked the blind man.

Get a clue.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

13. i node that!...i am a card tot'en member of the MIHOP

[Al-CIAda]

30. Those who dismiss the MOUNTAIN of evidence and attempt

to dismiss those who want and HONEST investigation are very suspect.

The 9-11 commission was clearly a whitewash.
I believe there are Democrats involved in the cover-up as well.

Of course if you'd rather bury your head in the sand...
From our own 'Minstrel Boy'-

The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11
Happy coincidenting!

That governments have permitted terrorist acts against their own people, and have even themselves been perpetrators in order to find strategic advantage is quite likely true, but this is the United States we're talking about.

That intelligence agencies, financiers, terrorists and narco-criminals have a long history together is well established, but the Nugan Hand Bank, BCCI, Banco Ambrosiano, the P2 Lodge, the CIA/Mafia anti-Castro/Kennedy alliance, Iran/Contra and the rest were a long time ago, so there’s no need to rehash all that. That was then, this is now!

That Jonathan Bush’s Riggs Bank has been found guilty of laundering terrorist funds and fined a US-record $25 million must embarrass his nephew George, but it's still no justification for leaping to paranoid conclusions.

That George Bush's brother Marvin sat on the board of the Kuwaiti-owned company which provided electronic security to the World Trade Centre, Dulles Airport and United Airlines means nothing more than you must admit those Bush boys have done alright for themselves.

That George Bush found success as a businessman only after the investment of Osama’s brother Salem and reputed al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mahfouz is just one of those things - one of those crazy things.

That Osama bin Laden is known to have been an asset of US foreign policy in no way implies he still is.

That al Qaeda was active in the Balkan conflict, fighting on the same side as the US as recently as 1999, while the US protected its cells, is merely one of history's little aberrations.

Con't-
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/08/coincidence-theorists-guide-to-911.html

[Kikosexy2]

31. My gut feeling...

has always and still says it was an inside job. Connect the dots from the Bush family, the CIA, the Saudis, Israel, the Bin Laden Family, PNAC, the neocons, etc. They all connect one way or another--put the puzzle together and it raises eyebrows I must say. Think about it--we haven't been attacked since 9/11/01. Is the U.S. that secure? Is Homeland Security really working? Something just doesn't seem right.

[The Night Owl]

34. I will never believe MIHOP. Here is why...

If the Bush administration had any hand in the planning of the 9/11 attacks, then why didn't Bush try to appear large and in charge after the planes hit the WTC? Instead of appearing large and in charge on 9/11, Bush appeared small and incompetent. If Bush had advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks, he of all people, would have grandstanded.


____________________
Even Gee Dub knows that the Smear Boat Veterans are dirty liars...

"Senator Kerry is justifiably proud of his record in Vietnam and should be. It's noble service.” - George W. Bush

[bpilgrim]

42. bush did NOT react at ALL

that is a TELL.

his own leadership team DIDN'T react... ANOTHER tell.

maybe they wanted to appear completely caught unawares, hmmm...

besides we are talking about MOUNTAINS of EVIDENCE not just this (non)REACTION.

:hi:

peace

[yinkaafrica]

53. MIHOP

Everything about it points to Bush and Cheney.
They were ready; they had been working on this for years.
They fingered Bin Laden and crew before the dust had settled.
The Patriot Act appeared seemingly out of nowhere,
completed with absolutely no input from the Democrats.
Bush was raping the treasury in the name of 'anti-terror black ops'
before the Democrats had so much as paged thru that horrible tome. And he has not let up since. No investigation has been allowed.
Talk to any European: many if not most suspect Bush did it. Why don't we?

His absurd over reaction to 9/11 is patently un American.
He created the crisis to use against us.

[Minstrel Boy]

43. Bush didn't know. How much does your suit know?

My suit doesn't know much. The suit in the White House knows even less.

[skypilot]

46. The only thing I can say to that is...

Has anything this administration has done--or is proposing to do--made any kind of sense? I don't think they had any hand in actually planning 9/11 but I don't believe for a second that they didn't know that something was coming. They probably thought that it wouldn't be any worse than the first World Trade Center bombing or the Oklahoma City bombing, both of which were horrible but the country survived. I think the scale of the Sept.11th attacks threw them for a loop and they all started playing dumb. Bush, Rumsfeld and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Richard Myers claimed to have thought the first crash was merely an accident. It's got to be someone's job to assume the worst and prepare to defend the country if necessary. Apparently, not these three.

[The Night Owl]

50. I agree. EOM

[JohnyCanuck]

62. Prepare to defend the country?

They sure screwed that mandate up big time.

There were more 9/11 war games including Northern Guardian, Northern Denial (recently confirmed by an Assistant Editor at Harper's magazine) and an unnamed National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) drill for a plane crashing into NRO headquarters at precisely the time of an actual crash in New York.

Another coincidence?

War games, terror drills and exercises are run by the military quite frequently. In this case, they mirrored the real attacks of 9/11 with such shocking congruence as to be beyond the realm of coincidence.

This is made clear when we consider the warnings that had flooded U.S. Intelligence prior to 9/11, indicating that terrorists were planning to hijack aircraft and crash them into American targets on the ground during the week of September 9th, 2001. 25 With that type of information, who in their right mind would then schedule war games that would leave New York and Washington D.C. completely undefended?

We've already shown that the man in charge of managing all such programs was Dick Cheney. Among the central decision-makers for the scheduling of so many simultaneous exercises would be Dick Cheney and Ralph Eberhart, head of NORAD.

From Simplifying the case against Cheney, at www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/011805_simplify_case.shtml

[anarchy1999]

63. "43" didn't, "41" did.

Just go google the Bush family if you can't find enough info here at DU.

[hang a left]

69. Because I don't believe he was in the loop.

He knew SOMETHING was going to happen. Remember when ** was asked about the first plane hitting the towers before he enters the school. He said he would have a comment later. Then go back and watch the look on his face when Andrew Card whispers to him in that classroom. Remember this guy is just a front man. I think he could very well have been wondering if he was a goner himself.

[passy]

88. First of all * is small and incompetent

What he was feeling in that classroom, and I watched it last night, was quite simply stage fright. And he had no one to tell him what to say which we know is a big problem for him.

[Old and In the Way]

96. Easy to explain

As stated in the above posts, 77 and 93 were delayed significantly on 9/11. All the planes, if they had departed on schedule would have hit their intended targets by nlt 9:15. Perhaps, the entire photo-op would have been canceled. So Bush is waiting for word to spring into action....but the events were not going quite to plan. And Ari puts up a sign in the classroom that directs Dimson: "DON'T SAY ANYTHING YET".

But I take Bush on his word. He said he saw the 1st plane hit on TV and that was one bad pilot. He said that twice publicly (the 2nd time in January of 2002). Problem is, there was no videotape of the 1st plane available at that time when he states he saw it on TV. Maybe he didn't know the difference between broadcast and closed circuit TV's?

[rachelbirds]

154. bingo!!

[demodewd]

167. But...

Bush is small and incompetent.

[skypilot]

38. I've said this before but...

...I was not originally a "conspiracy theorist" regarding 9/11. I, at first, chalked it up to monstrous incompetence. That was my belief for well over a year after the attack. Four little words began to make me change my mind. I'm sure most of you have heard of them:

"There's one terrible pilot."

This is what Bush claimed that he thought to himself after the first crash. I didn't stumble upon this quote until after the story of the Aug.6th PDB first broke in May 2002. When that story broke it just seemed to be more proof of utter incompetence. However, I started thinking that it made no sense for Bush to have claimed to think that the first attack was actually an accident if he'd been warned a month prior about a possible attack. That's just common sense. Of course, since then we've learned of even more warnings Bush had received from George "Hair on Fire" Tenet and Richard "System Blinking Red" Clark. Not to mention that it was the fucking World Trade Center for God's sake, the same World Trade Center that had been attacked in 1993. That alone should have raised some red flags but apparently (or, rather supposedly) it didn't--until the second crash. I don't buy it.

[The Night Owl]

48. Bush's claim that he thought the first plane...

Bush's claim that he thought the first plane to hit the WTC was the result of bad piloting may have been an effort to cover up the fact that he missed clues leading up to the 9/11 attacks. I believe that the Bush administration, in the months before 9/11/2001, knew that a terrorist attack was coming, but they underestimated the ferocity of that attack. The only thing that the Bush administration has to cover up regarding 9/11 is their incompetence.

____________________
Even Gee Dub knows that the Smear Boat Veterans are dirty liars...

"Senator Kerry is justifiably proud of his record in Vietnam and should be. It's noble service.” - George W. Bush

[skypilot]

55. Incompetence...

...and something else. I'm not sure what. When you've received the kinds of warnings that they received it takes something more than incompetence to take as little action as they did to try to protect the American people. Sounds traitorous to me, quite frankly. Keep in mind that in July 2001 John Ashcroft was ordered to stop taking commercial aircraft, for the rest of his term, based on a "threat assessment" that had been done that summer. Screw the rest of us, apparently. Someone had some idea that the attacks might involve airplanes and yet the FAA wasn't even warned. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that last point.) I'm sorry but incompetence is a little too prosaic to describe what had to have been going on here. I'm sure that is part of it but I think there is something else.

[arbitror78]

59. Unfortunately, our president is utterly incompetent

so I have no problem believing that he really thought it was a bad pilot. He probably didn't even know about the '93 bombing. But honestly, nobody wanted to believe it was a terrorist attack, because the thought was so horrible. He was clearly in shock when he heard of the news.

Being of Muslim descent, I was really hoping it wasn't Muslims who did it, but I have come to accept it. OBL is indeed a real person, and he pretty much cleared any doubt of his guilt by releasing those tapes. Is all the evidence fake? Is Al-jazeera in on it too?

Another thing that doesn't add up about this theory is the fact that dubya's administration was only in power for eight months. Now, that would give them enough time to plot something like this, but would leave little margin for error. Does this mean Bill CLinton was in on it too? Were we on this forum the only ones in the world who aren't in on it? It's way to much of a stretch.

-Arbitror78

[skypilot]

64. "nobody wanted to believe it was a terrorist attack"

I don't buy that. The administration had been warned for at least the entire summer that a terrorist attack might be coming. They even called it the "summer of fear". Condi Rice even talked about "increased chatter in the intelligence community". And it's not as though the country had NEVER suffered a terrorist attack before. We'd even suffered one at the hands of one of our own citizens. And frankly, it stretches the imagination to think that Bush didn't know anything about the 1993 bombing.

[MsTryska]

66. these are the words that reverberated with me:

"Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a
new Pearl Harbor.

- PNACs "Rebuilding America's Defense", September 2000.

[skypilot]

78. Yeah, there's THAT.

What I find really creepy and a bit telling about that passage is the fact that they specifically reference Pearl Harbor. Why were they thinking in those terms rather than in terms of terrorist bombings like they have in Israel or the ones we'd had here in the US already. Why wouldn't a series of continous suicide bombings have been enough? Why the specter of a terrorist attack involving planes--like Pear Harbor? Do you understand what I mean?

[passy]

91. Have you ever seen "The Birds" by Hitchcock?

Same kind of fear. All that comes from above is very scary. Like bombs you will never see them drop on your head.

[MsTryska]

97. i totally understand what you mean......

i mean this attack can only be comparable to Pearl Harbor. what are the odds of that?

[anarchy1999]

141. These people that wrote this document are running our "government"

into the ground. We are finished. "God Bless America", not.

[Ezlivin]

76. When did Bush see the first plane hit?

It's all well and good of him to say "There's one terrible pilot", but the most important thing to note is note so much his words as the chronology of events.

As reported in The Nation in October 2003:

On December 4, 2001, Bush was asked, "How did you feel when you heard about the terrorist attack?" Bush replied, "I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower--the TV was obviously on. And I used to fly myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident. But I was whisked off there. I didn't have much time to think about it." Bush repeated the same story on January 5, 2002, stating, "First of all, when we walked into the classroom, I had seen this plane fly into the first building. There was a TV set on. And you know, I thought it was pilot error, and I was amazed that anybody could make such a terrible mistake...."

How in the HELL did he see the first plane hit the tower? The film footage from the French crew was not made available until hours after the event.

This slip of the tongue (twice) convinced me that he had watched the event unfold.

[Old and In the Way]

155. Indeed....and there's no way out.

Let's give him the benfit of the doubt for a second and assume that he meant he saw the 2nd plane hit.

But if it's the 2nd plane, he already knows the 1st plane has hit before he gets to the school. So he knows it's not "one bad pilot".

So he either screwed the story at the get go by forgeting that it was CCTV (remember those suspicious Israeli's filming the event from the van- home movies or a satellite uplink?)....or he's laying a defense immediately by pleading cluelessness....which we now know he wasn't. They fought like hell not to allow the 8/6/01 Presidential Debriefing Paper to become public knowledge. That proves he had prior knowledge and he lied when he said he thought it was "one bad pilot".

Either way you cut it, he's guilty for allowing 3,000 innocent people to die that day.

[dlaliberte]

161. Maybe he imagined seeing it when he saw the hole in the tower.

He said he saw an airplane hit the tower, but maybe it was only in his mind's muddled eye that he saw it. It is easy to imagine having seen it given the airplane-shaped hole in the tower, and eyewitness reports of the airplane.

We know he mispeaks, and misthinks. I wouldn't hold his feet to the fire on this one. He makes a lousy witness and a worse president.

On the other hand, maybe he had access to some special CIA video, since as we know, the CIA knew about it before it was going to happen, and Bush assumed he was watching national television.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

212. There was a command post at WTC 7 that was set up for biowarfare

excersises. Giuliani was there. Probably a good view to see the first plane hit.

Something elxe pretty interesting. An Al-Queda training video turned up sometime last year. In it there was a view of the first plane hitting never seen before. It turns out that it was footage that the FBI never released here. Supposedly given to them by a passerby. How did this video held by the FBI get in an Al Queda training video???

[Just Me]

41. BTW JackRiddler,...nice, succinct summary there!

:hi:

[SheepyMcSheepster]

49. I agree

the lack of disclosure and the evidence of coverup is obvious.
the real problem is getting people to realise the magnitude of what has happened, which is hard even for those who can see the other wrongs that this administration does.
the claim of an inside job like this just simply doesn't seem like a real possibility, because people "know" their government (or those in control of some aspects of it) would never do anything to hurt the american people to further an agenda. However, a quick look into the past (operation northwoods) will show you that these types of scenarios are at least discussed with in the U.S. government.

people seem to beleive that these "world leaders" play by the rules of the common man, this is not the case, this is a grand game to them. They are not the common man.

i could understand how someone in such a position of power may feel that events like these need to unfold in order to make a more "secure" U.S., someone could really believe that theyhave the best interest of the united states at heart and still subscribe to the idea that in order to save the country some sacrifices have to be made.

[indigobusiness]

52. How could they do so much on 911, successfully?

When everything they've done since has been a catastrophic bungling disaster?

This is the deal killer for me.

[bpilgrim]

56. r u kidding

then have gotten EVERYTHING they have wanted... it certainly is a disaster for john and jane public but certainly not the neoCONs.

and there are MOUNTAINS of EVIDENCE that points to the neoCONs

peace

[indigobusiness]

106. It sure does stink

in many, many ways.

[Minstrel Boy]

58. 9/11 is bigger than the administration.

Sibel Edmonds has much to say - as much as she can say - about the need to look beyond government involvement.

[indigobusiness]

107. Sibel Edmonds is certainly a hero.

I admire her guts and put a good deal of stock in what she says.

There is much that isn't resolved here, of that I am sure.

[anarchy1999]

68. It's been a "catastrophic success". There is no deal killer here, you

missed the boat. It's all going as planned by the PNAC'ers.

[The Magistrate]

83. What Amuses Me Most About This Particular Line, Ma'am

Is its basic assumption that there is no other actor in the world but the United States. This line posits a world in which no one else has aims and acts to achieve them. That this is untrue everyone past primary school age ought to have sufficient experience of life to demonstrate. No more than you are the only actor in your life and the only imfluence on its path is the United States the only actor in the world, and the only influence on world events.

A close second in amusements provided by this line is the belief contained in it that things go according to plan. Things very seldom do, and the larger and more complex the plan, the greater the certainty it will mis-carry. Again, this is something anyone who has ever attempted anything will have had occassions to learn for themselves. It is only in the pages of novels and screen=plays that things work out as intended by protagonists, and the reason for it is really, at bottom, nothing but the failure of the authors to sufficiently apprehend the complexities and chaotic interactions of the world around them. Fictions, particularly fictions in the adventurous espionage genre, are a poor foundation for understanding events.

[anarchy1999]

89. God, I get a reply.

go read
"The Rich and the SuperRich", Ferdinand Lundberg
"They Dare to Speak Out", Paul Findley
"America, What went Wrong?", Bartlett and Steele
"None Dare Call it Conspiracy", Gary Allen

on edit:

I forgot to say, Magistrate, you are rude.

[The Magistrate]

92. Rude, Ma'am?

How are my comments rude?

Your reading list will be taken under advisement, but does not seem to offer much of value, as propagandist tracts can seldom offer much but low amusement, and that need is adequately provided for by Benny Hill re-runs, and the squabbles of my grandsons....

"The mind wobbles...."

[WoodrowFan]

247. and when you're done with those books

try "Grimm's Fairy Tales" and "Lord of the Rings' if you're going to read fantasy at least read GOOD fantasy not Far-RW conspiracy crap.

BYE BYE!

[anarchy1999]

90. By the way, Magi, there are lots of actors on the "world stage".

n/t

You ready to start calling them out?

[The Magistrate]

95. As You Wish, Ma'am

It surprises me that people have difficulty with the idea that reactionary elements within the Islamic world are hostile to the West in general, and the United States in particular, and are willing to act violently on this hostility, as they feel called to do by the form their faith takes. To imagine such people incapable of effective action along such lines, acting wholly on their own, seems to me a most eggregious example of belief in Western, nay Caucasian, superiority, and in Eastern and Colored inferiority.

"They are not stupid. They are underfed and brown and afflicted with lousy telephone systems, but they are not stupid."

[MsTryska]

99. I would gladly believe that.....

and still do.



However there are entirely too many ties between this particular terrorist group and this particular administration.

[The Magistrate]

108. Those Ties, Ma'am, Are Greatly Exaggerated

It is certainly true that the C.I.A. gave considerable assistance to the jihadist while these fought the Soviet Union, but there does not seem to be evidence for much by way of continued influence afterwards. The Paksitani intelligence service,of course, ahs retained, and still retains to this day, great influence and contacts in such circles.

[MsTryska]

112. You sure about that?

because I disagree.




As late as 1999 Bin laden and Al Quaeda were "helping us out" in the Balkans.



In May 2001, Colin Powell gave 43 million dollars to the Taliban, because they burned their Opium crop.


There's the ties through BCCI - you remember that don't ya? From the Iran-Contra scandal?


it's easy to play it down, but the facts speak in a different way.

[The Magistrate]

119. Quite Sure, Ma'am

The "Balkan connection" is mostly a creation of Serb Nationalist propaganda, which of course was at great pains to present Butcher Slobo as a defender of the West against Islamic terrorism. The K.L.A. was a decidedly secular organization, and neither the Bosnian nor the Kossovar resistance to Serbia depended on organizations like al Queda in any important degree. It is true that in the latter stages of the fighting in Bosnia, foriegn Moslem fighters, some of them jihadists, and many Iranian, were an important factor, but they came on their own, and, in my view, understandably and properly, to defend co-religionists against massacre. My great dislike for these obscurantist reactionaries does not require me to disregard occassions where they do perform a proper action.

It is also true that there were some negotiations with the Taliban early in 2001. My own view of this is that the Taliban and al'Queda rather played the U.S. in that matter. By making friendly sorts of overtures, at a time when the current regime was busily rejecting any policy of President Clinton, and priding themselves on what "hard headed realists" they were, the Taliban acquired a small subsidy, and probably provided some valuable cover for the final stages of the plot, for while in midst of negotiations, no one in the regime would have wanted some action by the security services to rumble the game and make them look bad.

The Bank of Credit and Commerce International was a tremendous scandal, that had roots in many directions, most thoroughly in Pakistan. It dates, of course, to the Cold War period in which the jihadists were viewed as valuable assests against the Soviet Union. In short,it is antique, and offers no evidence of current co-operation, control, or influence.

[MsTryska]

121. I still disagree.

because 9/11 isn't in the "now".



it was a plot who roots go back to 20 or 30 years ago.


we're of two different opinions it seems.


you seem to believe that this was jsut a straight attack on the US, designed to hurt our current president.


I see it as an attack on the people of the US, that benefitted our current administration. Who, just purely by coincedence i'm sure, have had long long ties with the attackers.

[The Magistrate]

125. Honestly, Ma'am

Are you seriously proposing this was a plot in the works for several decades?

In my view, the attack was levied against the United States for the purpose of doing it harm, and for the greater purpose of establishing its authors as the most prestigious leaders of reactionary Islam under arms, and attracting a flood of new recruits to their banner. The identity of the current ruler of our country, and his fate political or otherwise, was no part of the calculation whatever.

That someone benefited by a thing proves nothing; many people benefit from many things, and have no part in their causation. "Qui bono?"is not the end of inquiry, but only its beginning, and an answer to it is certainly no proof of anything in itself.

[MsTryska]

129. I don't doubt that that's what AQ had in mind.

i'm just not willing to give them all the credit.



if it was all them, and this admin has nothing at all to do with it, why are they still at large, and why did the cabal to decide to fall back on the PNAC agenda as fast as possible. There's more to it than "life hands you lemons, make lemonade".


the way we have reacted to this attack is not the way the America I know reacts.


therefore - i have no doubt that this administration was in some way and stil is, in some way complicit.

[The Magistrate]

135. Why Is It So Difficult, Ma'am?

These people learned the trade in a damned hard school; fighting guerrilla war against the Soviets is no fantasy camp. They are good at the work, and managed the thing very well.

Do not be decieved by "hunt him down" rhetoric into imagining the capture of Bin Lasen would be a triflingly easy thing, if only the whole national power were brought to bear on it. There are realobstacles, that remain to this day. The key to the situation is Pakistan, the most important elements of it being the centrality to its national policy of the Kashmir imbroglio, and its possession of nuclear weapons. The principle activity of al Queda in Afghanistan was providing fighters for Kashmir, under contract to the Pakistani security service. This continues, and the Pakistani security service continues to shield him, as he enjoys the loyalty of the greatest proportion of the militants on whom their Kashmiri endeavors depend. To break the Pakistani security service would be to wholly destabilize the region, and place existing nuclear weapons in the hands of al Queda or similar militants. Sensible people shrink from such a doing, and cowards certainly do.

The current regime arrived in office intending to invade Iraq, most importantly so the scape-grace son could show up the father by cleaning up his unfinished business. The attack by al Queda was clearly viewed from the start as offering a possible pretext for action against Iraq, and once the full ramifications of hunting down Bin Laden were obvious, invading Iraq offered the only means of preserving the "tough guy" image on which these wretches set such store. It also offered a great opportunity in short range political terms, as there is nothing like a whipping up to war to shield a faltering regijme against criticism, and distract the people from their difficulties.

[MsTryska]

139. well you pretty much have stated the point that sticks with me:

"The attack by al Queda was clearly viewed from the start as offering a possible pretext for action against Iraq,"

[The Magistrate]

147. Still, Ma'am

That does not mean anything beyond the plain statement. It certainly does not establish that the thing was contrived by the persons who saw it as a pretext for that action, in order to have that pretext.

[vincent_vega_lives]

226. Kudos Magistrate

On your very knowledgeable posts.

[The Magistrate]

228. Thank You, Mr. Vega

The work you do down here is much appreciated; clearly your constitution is stronger than mine....

[tngledwebb]

172. A question-

What, if anything, about the events of 9/11, or the policies of the Bush regime, gives you cause for alarm?

[The Magistrate]

179. Your Implication, Sir

That disagreement with you on this matter equates to support for the criminals of the '00 Coup is noted. It seems to be a staple of those who worship at the church of ultra-conspitacy that any who disagree are merely agents in some way of the grand conspirators. It is a common mental defense mechanism, that serves to shield believers from having to consider arguments against the articles of their faith, in rather the same manner as imputing Satanic inspiration to evolutionary or psychiatric theory serves a devout fundamentalist.

It would be tedious to rehearse in its entirity the body of my differences with, and detestation for, the current regime and its policies. The wrecking of the national fisc, the squeezing of wages, the thieveries of crony capitalism, the attempt to in essence roll back the New Deal, the exhaltation of a pernicious religiousity in national life, the embarcation on a course of imperial adventure and the studied incompetence with which that ill-conceived venture is being pursued, would constitute only a selection among the highlights.

However, Sir, there is really very little about the al'Queda attacks that much alarms me. They did, and do, highlight the degree of incompetence and inertia in the bureaucracies charged with security in a time of peace, but that is the normal state of such bureaucracies in times of peace. It is quite clear that the degree to which a foreign foe was capable of striking the United States was greatly under-rated, but that, too, is very normal: we are rather prone, here, to under-rate the capabilities of browner peoples to do anything, and that we should have under-rated Arabs surprises me no more than that we under-rated Japanese, and continue to under-rate Chinese. Without surprise, it is difficult to summon up much in the way of alarm.

[Abe Linkman]

180. Here's your sign AND your novacaine.

How's it feel? Comfortably numb?
There you go, and wherever you go, there you are.

[The Magistrate]

182. Well, Dear

In the face of such wit and expertise, what is an orinary mortal to do...?

"Cool blue reason comes into your life...."

[seatnineb]

201. Wrong.

I know Maggy......

Those Islamists are just so god-darn smart.....

The destruction of:

2 militarily insignificant towers.......

A newly re-inforced wedge at the Pentagon.....

And an abandoned mine field in Pennsylvania .....

.....were really going to hurt a nation of 250 million with the strongest military strength known to man......

Next.

[anarchy1999]

101. I know you. " Magistrate", be gone, forever more.

n/t

[The Magistrate]

110. Have You Tried Candles, Ma'am?

Work some blood into beeswax; these things are not easily achieved....

"The member from Nether Furnace rises to protest use of the adjective 'fiendish' applied to atrocities that, on examination, are clearly examples of human conduct."

[anarchy1999]

114. Hi Les, Bye Les.

See ya. And if you are not him, well then you should be.

[The Magistrate]

122. Les, Ma'am?

"Less is more."

[anarchy1999]

124. In every direction, dearest sir. In every direction.

n/t

[demodewd]

205. US corporations

52 of the largest 100 economies of the world are corporations and of those 52,47 of them are located in the US.

Will begin there. If you hang around,we'll introduce you to the "complexities" of the 19 Arab hijackers scenario.

[rman]

195. They're arrogant, but not stupid.

Sooner or later their arrogancy will be their downfall.
In the mean time they'd be satisfied having you think they're just stupid or incompetent.

[Calvinist Basset]

57. I may be a little slow--as I'm not fully convinced yet.

But there is so much material tipping me in the direction to believe that this was indeed an inside job.

It just wouldn't surprise me. I think Bush is one of the most evil humans ever to walk the earth.

[anarchy1999]

70. There is the danger, it's not just Georgie. It's the family,

n/t Go back, check it all out.

[tngledwebb]

174. Add your instincts to the evidence and

what do you get? Something is rotten somewhere? Then, keep reading- a lot will make sense, a lot won't, but the stench will get stronger as you go.

[EC]

65. Motive?

How about to rob the National Treasury and Control the People? Our economy is about bust for the simple peons like us and they need to control us...therefore the Patriot Act I and the Victory Act...soon they'll start jailing descendants in the open instead of quietly...

[MsTryska]

67. let's not forget strengthening the Military-Industrial Complex....

where so many of our current cabal make their daily bread, in one way or the other.

[anarchy1999]

74. dissidents, not descendants. Welcome to DU, now go fix your spelling.

n/t

Get a Dictionary.

[tngledwebb]

175. Or click on 'check spelling'- It's quicker and works for most words.

:)

[RBHam]

71. RFK put it best...

"Fear not the path of truth,
for the lack of people walking on it."

http://RobertFKennedy.net


And MoPaul has an obversation...

[anarchy1999]

80. Nice to see you RB. Thank you so much for the quote. You're great.

Thank you. Made me cry.

On edit:

I fear for his son.

[seemslikeadream]

77. Sibel Edmonds

Michael Chertoff and the sabotage of the Ptech investigation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2951935



Indira Singh/PTech deep moles in FAA help accomplish 9/11! WTF??
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2203166


State Dept. Quashed 9/11 Links To Global Drug Trade
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=610235&mesg_id=610235


Explosive new Sibel Edmonds interview
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1555133&mesg_id=1555133


DOJ Asked FBI Translator To Change Pre 9-11 Intercepts
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=442067&mesg_id=442067

[passy]

82. Didn't someone burn down the Reichstag?

Damn communists you really can't trust them.

[The Magistrate]

86. And Killed No One In Doing So, Sir

The distinctive pug-mark off "false-flag" operations by a conspiritorial intelligence servive, or cabal within one, against its own country, is the lack of any real substantial damage done....

[anarchy1999]

93. Off the wall and over the edge. WTF?

n/t
What the heck does what you say mean? "False flag" operations? ..lack of any real substantial damage done? WTF?

[The Magistrate]

105. Clearly, Ma'am, You Are Not A Student Of History

"False flag" is a term in reasonably wide circulation, being used in intelligence matters to indicate an operation undertaken by one organization in a manner making it appear to have been done by some other organization. The practice, obviously, long predates the modern parlance used above.

The much referenced Reichstag fire is pretty widely accepted as being such operation, executed by the Nazis themselves but being made to look like a thing done by Communists, through the means of leaving near the seen the unfortunate Marinus van der Lubbe on whom the act was pinned. The actual details of the thing, of course, remain somewhat obscure.

What difficulties you may actually have with the phrase "real substantial damage" are a mystery to me. That is pretty plain English. Operations of this sort, aimed at providing a pretext for some desired action, are fairly common in history, and generally are coinducted in such a manner as to cause very little real harm. An excellent example, that was contrived by a genuine conspiracy, was the attack on the South Manchurian Railway outside Mukden on Sept. 18, 1931, by a cabal of ultra-nationalist Japanese officers to provide an pretext for occupation of Manchuria by the Kwantung Army: an explosive charge was set off on the main line, in circumstances that enabled the act to be blamed on Chinese soldiers, but the explosion did so little damage an express passing over the point soon after did not de-rail. That is typical. All that is sought by operations like this are things that can be cried up in a howl of hysterical publicity, and for this purpose, killing several thousands of people and actually disrupting briefly the national economy is quite unneccessary.

"Never commit a felony when a misdemeanor will do."

[passy]

115. Unnecessary you say.

"killing several thousands of people and actually disrupting briefly the national economy is quite unnecessary" by the way do you remember how well the stock market was doing before the attacks?
I guess you think the war in Iraq is necessary, the killing of thousands of civilians and American soldiers doesn't seem to bother *.
Do you really think that he cared for the people killed on 9/11?
In his mind they are probably martyrs or casualties of war along with Afghanis and Iraqis.

[The Magistrate]

120. Your Guess, Sir, Is Quite In Error

And it remains the case that this degree of damage is quite unnecessary to the task of whipping up popular bellocosity. Given a disciplined propaganda organ, that not only can be done, but is best done, over trifles.

[anarchy1999]

116. Clearly, Dir Sir, I must not be, according to you.

I give and I pass, You are So Superior, to us all. You win, dear sir.

[passy]

103. Maybe when they get the job done themselves, however ...

...the people you hire might not have the same objectives as you.
Would you trust a hired gun?
Now I am not utterly convinced the whole * administration was in on it, but some were.
OBL is quite simply a double-agent, remember them they had loads during the Cold War.
I think the whole ideology behind what we are seen now is put together by people who simply haven't been able to cope with the end of the cold war. In a world at peace conservatives do badly, people are hopeful, accepting and intent on preserving peace.
In order for * to have something to do and stay in power, which considering his approval ratings pre 9/11, was going to be "hard work", he had to find something to do to galvanize the people into supporting him.
Don't you just find it incredible that everything always goes *'s way, his friends and family are getting richer, the people are gagged and can't tell him to F**k off, all irregularities in elections benefit him etc.. That guy must have been sent by God, he is way too lucky.

[The Magistrate]

127. It Is Distressing,Sir

But sometimes things do flow in a particular direction, distressing though that may be.

Once the Sage wrote: "Some things are favored by Heaven. No one knows why."

[anarchy1999]

130. You, dear sir, are off the map.

I'm gone, it's early afternoon. You are served, as in "exit left".

[The Magistrate]

138. Your Service Is Much Appreciated, Ma'am

A good laugh must be taken where it can be found in these troubled times....

[TNOE]

150. How do you correlate in your mind

Condi's statement that 'NO ONE COULD HAVE EVER KNOWN PLANES WOULD FLY INTO BUILDINGS'

when

on that very day -

THEY were running exercises of EXACTLY THAT? Is Condi lying?? Is she stupid? Was she out of the loop?

I mean, that was really a whopper she told there.

[The Magistrate]

153. That Person, Ma'am,

Is a liar and a fool, sticking in that instance to a contrived alibi that doubtless fooled no one but its authors, if even they were fooled. The idea has been kicking around popular culture and professional circles for some time.

There is certainly a good deal to alibi in this matter. Even by jaundiced standards the bureaucratic inertia and incompetence were at the high end of normal, and incompetence, when caught out by such events as this, really ghto result in severe punishment.

But the simple truth is that things really do not work very well; they never have, and they never will. There is something fundamentally un-governable about the world. Sometimes it is more obvious than usual....

"The surest safeguard of liberty is inefficiency."

[TNOE]

157. Yes - I agree with you here

she IS a LIAR and a FOOL - this whole administration is full of LIARS and FOOLS.

They thought they could pull this off - but incompetance reigned.... some of the flights were delayed which really messed up their timeline AND they forgot ONE little detail - THE INTERNET. Thank God there are several thousand smart enough Americans who caught on immediately and asked questions - questions they couldn't answer and can't answer.

You delude yourself I'm afraid....

But the simple truth is that things really do not work very well; they never have, and they never will. There is something fundamentally un-governable about the world. Sometimes it is more obvious than usual....

Wasn't it Franklin D. Roosevelt who said NOTHING happens but what the government isn't aware of. $4 TRILLION in defense and we couldn't get a single fighter plane up in over an hour? If nothing else - the president's only job is to protect America - HE DIDN'T, so he and the rest of them all should be fired - or us taxpayers (especially those in New York) should have demanded their tax dollars back.

There is no other conclusion but the BUSH ADMINISTRATION did it, and I'm sure they are sweating bullets - they know its only a matter of time - the truth will prevail.

Now why do you suppose a major network has not investigated this story? They know the truth - they just don't dare say.

[The Magistrate]

169. It Is My General Custom, Ma'am

To refrain from following these discussions back to the private den, where the like-minded have a reasonable expectaion of conviviality and camaraderie that ought not in kindness be trespassed on lightly. But the above does seem worth some reply, however belated, or possibly intrusive.

There seems to me a grotesque dis-connect between stigmatizing a band of people as incompetents and fools while claiming they have pulled off, and are getting away with, an extraordinarily large and intricate and deep-layed plot. Incompetents and fools would be unable to manage that; if they did what you believe they did, they are the wiliest and most skillful bunch in history, for that is what the plot you believe in would have required.

Indeed, it seems to me a central flaw of your belief, on a par with the miscalculation of the Abrahamic traditions in claiming their theologies of theophany could be confirmed by historical study, that a plot so cunning, and so fraught with danger to its authors should their actions be exposed, could be readily unravelled by any person with time on their hands and a key-board under them, as you claim it can be, and has been. Surely persons setting about such a dark and dangerous design would have taken extraordinary steps to hide their tracks, rather than leaving droppings scattered about like a new-born pup.

The "evidences" presented for this plot have not impressed me at all. They mostly resolve on examination into the patter of mythomanic grifters, misunderstandings or misrepresentations of basic elements of engineering and combustion, or classic logical fallacies, such as assuming causation from sequence, or collusion from proximity. Most of the rest rely on asserting one or another thing said amidst great muddle represents the sole element of truth, without any allowance for a variety of contradicting statements, or for the confusion of eyewitness testimonies, or the fluididity of human memory, all factors persons practiced at assessing source materials are accustomed to deal with and allow for.

From the point of view of al'Queda conspiritors, the thing went off extraordinarily well. Their plot was very loose and flexible, so that unforseen delays in some elements of it did not harm the execution of the basic design. They relied on bureaucratic inertia, on the reluctance of people to seem alarmist and risk their status, and on the confusion spread by an unexpected but calamatous event. These things are givens of the human condition, and can be seen in every violent crisis throughout history.

President Roosevelt was a great President, and a wise man and a canny politician, but this does not mean everything he said is true, and any statement by him that everything that happens is known to government would be one that is not true. My recollection is not that he said what you have indicated but that he said once, in effect, that anything that happens in a political campaign is planned. Though that is certainly hyperbole, it is true enough to serve as a guide to understanding the course of such endeavors. It remains the case that the world is fundamentally ungovernable: it is far too full of contesting wills to be completely managed from any single point, and quite beyond the comprehension in all the necessary detail of any single mind, or single small group of minds. That is why successful conspiritorial actions tend to be of fairly small scale, directly involving very few people. It is a commonplace of revolutionary lore that where more than three people are gathered, the odds are better than even one is an informant....

"I'm going home now. Somebody bring me some frogs and some bourbon."

[seatnineb]

185. You contradict yourself my dear........

The Magistrate on:
Fri Jan-21-05 05:37 AM

From the point of view of al'Queda conspiritors, the thing went off extraordinarily well. Their plot was very loose and flexible, so that unforseen delays in some elements of it did not harm the execution of the basic design.

And......

The Magistrate on:

Wed Jan-19-05 08:31 PM

A close second in amusements provided by this line is the belief contained in it that things go according to plan. Things very seldom do, and the larger and more complex the plan, the greater the certainty it will mis-carry.


Rather than The Magistrate......perhaps we should rename you The Contradiction.

[The Magistrate]

188. Do You Really Think So, Sir?

It does not seem so to me, for the things being referenced are of quite different scales.

The allegation that this thing was directed from the highest levels of U.S. government and political and financial circles, who control an ostensibly hostile Islamicist organization set up as a dummy to take the rap or execute the operation, which operation may have involved a variety of things ranging from duplicating airline flights to pre-set demolition charges to use of a cruise missile of other military munitions against the Pentagon particularly, is a thing of titanic scale and intricacy, that could never go right or be kept quiet. It has far too many moving parts, so to speak: far too many people involved, far too many things to do, and do just right at just the right time. It is the sort of thing imagined in works of fiction, but absent from the pages of history.

Slipping several small batches of people in sequence across a border is very easily contrived; it happens every day for various purposes, mostly ordinary employment, and will continue to happen. Elementary redundancies, such as sending a few more people than you really need, insures against the small percentage of expected difficulties. Gaining basic training for flight requires only a small budget. Boarding the planes requires no more than a straight face and the usual degree of incompetence associated with bored people paid six dollars an hour. Gaining control of the planes requires no more than a bit of frightfulness and the expectation of the passengers and crews, based on past experience, that hi-jackings are hostage takings, and not preliminaries to use of the plane as an aerial torpedo.

The things are of quite different scale, and to say the observation that one succeeded well and the observation that one could not possibly succeed are contradictory is to say it is contradictory to observe that a shrew dropped from twenty feet onto grassy ground will take little harm, while an adult human dropped the same distance to the same surface would probably break several bones.

"My god, man, slap yourself and think!"

[seatnineb]

194. NIce piece......

........But predictably enough you forgot one thing......

Motive.

So enlighten me.

Who stands to gain.

Who stands to lose.

[The Magistrate]

197. It Would Be Wrong, Sir, To Refuse A Request For Enlightenment

As dinner beckons, and wife wishes the table cleared, you are refered to Nos. 95 and 125 above for a brief outline of the actual actor's immediate motivations, and perhaps this can be continued at another time....

Once the Sage wrote: "The King has his executioner, but you are not that man. If you try and be him, it would be like trying to cut wood like a master carpenter. If you try and cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand."

[seatnineb]

203. Already read them......

....and they were superficial as they are misleading.....

So answer me......Maggy....

Why would a group of individuals(hijackers) die(and kill), committing an act(9/11) against an enemy(U.S), knowing that the retaliation by that enemy for the act commited against them, would most likely destroy or severly incapacitate the very organization(Al-quida) that they(hijackers) have just killed themselves for.

[The Magistrate]

206. One Hardly Knows Where To Begin, Sir

This comment, along with your queries in No. 201 above, indicates you lack any grasp of even the rudiments of guerrilla war, and suggest at least a brief course in first principles is in order. If any part of the foundation for your views in this matter is based on the idea fundamentalist Islamic radicals could not have seen doing this as being in their interest, you are erecting your weighty idol on feet of clay quite unequal to their supporting task.

Guerrilla war has been rightly called the ultimate expression of the "indirect school" of strategy. It inverts all the concepts of conventional war, and nowhere is this more important than in the relation between the military and political spheres. All forms of war contain a signifigant political element, since the maintainance of the will to fight in a people and its armed forces is at bottom a political matter, but where the aim of action in conventional war is to so alter the military equation as to force a political result, the aim of action in guerrilla war is to achieve a political result that forces an alteration in the military equation. This "mirroring" is not sufficiently appreciated in conventional circles, which goes far to explain why convential military forces have such a poor record against guerrilla actions in the modern era.

To succeed, guerrilla movements must achieve two complementary political goals. They must gain and maintain widespread support among the mass of people they wish to direct against the power they oppose, and they must create within or inflict upon the political base of the power they oppose a sense of defeatism, or of illegitimacy in the exercise of that power, that will hamper the exercise of its military might against the guerrillas and the cause they champion. It is only when both these things have been achieved in some degree that a guerrilla force can achieve any real military effect by its operations, and when both have been achieved in any great degree, the success of the guerrilla movement is almost certain.

The first need of a nascent guerrilla movement is to call attention to itself, and impress the fact of its existance on the people it needs to rally and the people it needs to dispirit. The ordinary tool for the purpose is what the old Anarchists of fin de siecle Europe called "propaganda of the deed," namely spectacular outrages against the existing order that are certain to be widely bruited about, and calculated to inspire a desire for emulation on the one hand, and feelings of shock and great disquiet on the other.

As a strategem, these actions fall into the "gambit" class, for they are certain to draw vigorous and violent action in response from the power assailed, that will certainly do great damage to the guerrilla body and its early and potential supporters. But it is hoped that from this will flow even greater support in future, and even greater shock and disquiet be created among supporters of the power assailed, and these hopes are often realized. The actions of the power assailed are often very poorly aimed, and extraordinarily brutal, to a degree that can be counted on by the developing guerrilla movement. On the one hand, they will harm and outrage many whom the guerrillas hope will come to support them, leading to greater support for the guerrillas by means of fresh outrage, and positioning them to color further attacks as a champion's vengeance for these wrongs. On the other hand, the excessive actions of the power assailed will alienate some proportion of its natural supporters, who will recoil from the brutality done in their name, and point out, at the next round of guerrilla actions, that these brutal efforts of the gendarmerie have not really been very effective, since obviously the guerrillas have not been quashed or cowed by them. Successive actions by both sides will only heighten this vicious circle, that must spiral into either a success for the guerrillas in the political spheres at which they must aim, or into a degree of frightfulness by the power they oppose sufficient to cow the mass of people into abhorring the guerrilla movement that opens them to such brutality. Though another course is obvious to the dispassionate observer, namely a resolve by the power assailed to find some level of concession to the mass of people the guerrillas seek to mobilize that will suffice to buy them off while leaving that power with most of its prerogatives still intact, and thus isolate the guerrillas from any possible mass support, that course is only very rarely followed.

The opening stages of any conflict, whether guerrilla or conventional, are always a delicate matter certain to be fraught with many misapprehensions. For it is in the nature of things that, at the commencement of a conflict, each side thinks that it can win it, and of course, one of them will be proved wrong by the conflict's course. Therefore, many of the beliefs of the people who commence a conflict about its important factors, such as the character and power of its enemy, and even their own character and power, will be sadly in error. Thus, many things may be done that can easily be seen, from outside or in hindsight, to have been grievous miscalculations.

The fundamentalist Islamic radicals adhere to a critique of Western society not too different from that of the early twentieth century totalitarians, namely that for all its external power, it is at its core mushily soft and weak, a sort of creme-puff masquerading as a hard roll. They have therefore convinced themselves that it will not take too much to break the political will behind the military power, that it will not take too many strokes to cow the citizenry of the West, and the United States in particular, by convincing them that the enemy cannot be prevented from striking by any means other than capitulation to its demands. They fancy themselves much harder creatures, being steeled by an austere faith and devoted to death to their cause. They imagine they have the unequivocal support of an all-powerful deity in their actions, that gives them an abiding certainty of success, whatever the situation may appear to promise at any moment.

Thus, to the view of al'Queda militants and leaders, matters have gone rather well. Their movement is universally known, and they are viewed as its emblem and standard throughout the regions they wish to rally to their cause. They have not really suffered much damage in consequence of their actions. Some of the middle-level leadership has attained Paradise, but new men hold the same reins. They have had to resume an underground existance, but they have mostly lived an underground existance and it does not much discommode them. They are still recruiting and training without much hinderance, and there are new groups springing up in emulation of them throughout the Islamic world. The actions of the United States against them have been extraordinarily clumsy: indeed the heaviest blow from the United States has fallen on an Arab power that was quite hostile to them, and has had only the effect of opening a new theater in which the United States can be readily assailed with little risk to themselves, and providing a tremendous rallying standard for further recruitment.

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

[seatnineb]

213. Wrong.

Before 9/11:

The Taliban ruled the majority of Afghanistan.

The Baath Party ruled Iraq.

The House Of Saud ruled Saudi Arabia.

After 9/11:

Afghanistan belongs to the U.S. goverment.

Iraq belongs to the U.S goverment.

The House Of Saud still rules Saudi Arabia.

Great acheivements for Al-Quida ......wouldn't you say, Maggy.......

And at the cost of how many innocent Americans,Afghans and Iraqis........

And over the last 14 years..........

Apart from innocent Kenyans,Tanzanians,low ranking american sailors,
Indonesians,Tunisians,Morrocans,Saudis and Iraqis amongst others.....

Can you name me any members of the House Of Saud,the Clinton or Bush administrations(Senior and Junior) or Israeli goverments that Al-Quida have managed to kill..........

[seemslikeadream]

220. Don't forget the Haitians EVERY DEATH CREATES NEW ENEMIES

EVERY DEATH CREATES NEW ENEMIES
MORE TERRORISTS
MORE DANGER
MORE DEATH
AND REMEMBER...

HE IS JUST GETTING STARTED...

BUSH'S PLAN FOR PEACE
IS THE PEACE OF THE COMMON GRAVE

http://www.bushflash.com/pax.html Watch this video only 3 minutes



Wumpscut - Totmacher

sie ahnten nichts von mir
von meiner wilden gier
doch als du kamst zu mir
da wurde ich ein tier
kein gedanke an danach
als ich dir die knochen brach

tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot

tot

fuer mein naechstes leben
schoepfe ich neue kraft
ich bin dem toeten ergeben
in der einzelhaft

tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot
tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot

ein dahinsichen
von gottes hand
ich kann dich riechen
und das denken verschwand

tot tot tot tot tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot tot tot tot tot

ich mache dich tot ich mache dich tot
ich mache dich tot ich mache dich tot

sag mir was du willst
dass du meine sehnsucht stillst
ich mache dich tot fuer immerdar
von blut alles rot auf gottes altar

tot tot tot ich mache dich tot
tot tot tot von blut alles rot

ich mache dich tot fuer immerdar
ich mache dich tot glaub mir es ist wahr
ich mache dich tot fuer immerdar
ich mache dich tot auf gottes altar



Wumpscut - Deadmaker

They didn't expect me
never expected my wild lust
I turned into an animal
No thought about afterwards
When I broke your bones

Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red

Dead

For my next life (life after death in the religious sense)
I get the power I need
I’m a slave to the killing
In solitary confinement

("einzelhaft" (solitary confinment) has become part of the german vocabulary after the terrorist attacks of the Red Army Fraction during the 70's. It's used for people in prison, who are put into complete isolation not just from other people, but from all kinds of information. It's what might be known in the US as "sensual deprivation", a kind of torture-technique to destroy people's self.)

Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red
Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red

Wasting away
By God’s hand
I can smell you
And my thought disappeared

Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red
Dead, dead, dead, dead

I make you dead I make you dead
I make you dead I make you dead

Tell me what you want
That you fill my longing (that you satisfy my desire)
I make you dead for evermore
God’s altar stained from blood so red

Dead, dead, dead I make you dead
Dead, dead, dead stained from blood so red

I make you dead for evermore
I make you dead believe me its true
I make you dead for evermore
I make you dead on God’s altar

[k-robjoe]

221. Thanks seemslikeadream

For those who missed it, seemslikeadream recommended this 3 minute video : http://www.bushflash.com/pax.html

----------

To the Magistrate (?) : I think the reason noone pics up on your teasing(?) about racism, is because they have explained this to a couple of people who were thinking the same way as you allready and so they are bored of repeating it.

Two links of the kind that the "racists" here will provide you. (And that I get the impression that you would not have read otherwise.) :

http://www.xymphora.blogspot.com/ ( See January 25th )
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KHA501A.html

[The Magistrate]

229. Very Weak, Mr. Joe

Doubtless many employers are tired of explaining that lack of qualified applicants and other sound and neutral considerations explain why they hire few Blacks for responsible positions in their firms, and that it has nothing to do with racism, but no one really takes their protests seriously in the matter, and we on the left make it some part of out business to see to it they are wearied to tears with trotting out that futile wheeze they use for concealment of the worm at their heart. You may be sure, Sir, my comments on this matter are in dead earnest, and that how they are taken by those to whose thought they clearly apply does not trouble me in the least.

One of the important elements of a prejudice deeply inculcated in a culture over a great length of time is that persons, particularly unreflective persons, are very often unaware of how it shapes elements of their personal outlook on life and the world. Persons on the left are no more immune to such cultural influence and personal blindness than anyone else; such failings are part of the common heritage of humankind.

For at least two centuries now, it has been the common view in the Western and white world that its inhabitants are superior to the Eastern and browner peoples, that they have more drive and energy, greater capability for creation and destruction, reason and foresight and planning. This belief lurks at the bottom of most minds shaped by our culture, and surfaces in a number of odd and interesting ways. It is at the bottom of one leftist shibboleth, for instance, namely the idea that every difficulty encountered by the non-Western world is the result of Western colonialism. To hold to this view entirely is to say that non-Western peoples are merely the objects of Western action, and to deny that they are fully human, with their own capacity for success and failure, and capability for mis-judgement and muddle and all the other inescapable conditions of human existance. It is to deny them the fundamental dignity of responsibility, and is a profoundly denigrating view to take. Similarly, this belief lurks at the bottom of the view that Arabs, that Moslems, could not possibly have carried out effective attacks against the continental United States, and that such attacks could only have been contrived by some criminal agency within leading political and business circles of the United States itself. There is no denying this point has been urged by many devotees of the more arcane views of this matter; reference to "cave-dwellers" and the like is too common here. It is a view that can only be held by persons who either conciously uphold, or are thoughtlessly still under the influence of, the traditional Western of views of Eastern and brown inferiority, and white and Western superiority.

"Many people think that they are thinking when really they are only rearranging their prejudices."

[k-robjoe]

238. Yes, this has been discussed

a couple of months back.

I didn´t participate then, so I guess I could have a go.

But actually I´m allready so bored with your stunt that I´ll just drop this one. I get the impression that you are so much in love with yourself that I´ll be wiser to pick a less complicated subject if I´m going to try explain my thinking.

[The Magistrate]

240. It Is Always Wise, Mr. Joe

To avoid attempting to deal with complications one does not feel up to coping with. Just about everything in this forum has been discussed repeatedly for years, and so the mere fact that something may have been mentioned a few monts ago harly constitutes a bar.

The point remains, however. Those who take such peculiar views of this matter do not do so as a result of dispassionate examination of evidence, but rather adopt it as a result of some predisposition. Enquiry into the basis for these predispositions is not only legitimate but necessary.

"Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do."

[k-robjoe]

243. It´s better sometimes

to drop a discussion, but since you insist.

You Posted this to (John Doe II) on another thread :

"You seem to be suggesting the pilot hijacker ought to have dived more or less straight down to strike the interior of the Pentagon. Vertical or near vertical dives are seriously not recommended for these machines: at the speeds such would achieve, they first buffet uncontrollably, and then come apart."

What would make sense to me would be a controlled dive, 20-30 degrees, into the opposite wing. That is the wing where the top brass (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz) would have been hit.

What would make sense, from al-qaeda, would have been that the perpetrators made a trip to Washington DC beforehand, to have a look at their target. They would have seen that there was work going on in one of the wings, hence little use hitting it. Being smart people, they would find out in which wing Rumsfeld and other top guys would be found.

Now how can this be, I´m supposed to be the one thinking they´re not smart enough, yet I´m the one saying, they could not have been so stupid...

[The Magistrate]

244. It Seems To Me, Mr. Joe

That something near what you suggest was what was attempted, and failed of successful completion owing to lack of skill and poor fortune on the part of the pilot. Most accounts agree the man's training was insufficient to elevate him out of the novice class; had he spent, say, several years, or even several months, actually working as a pilot controlling these machines, he might well have pulled it off.

In fact, it seems that had the machine cleared the outer wall and struck the inner wall opposite, it would have incinerated a great many highly placed individuals there for a conference. It would be too much to suggest that that was known to the perpetrators; that degree of knowledge is probably beyond any organization that does not have actual moles at high levels, which is very unlikely in this matter, and had it come off, would gave been a mere accident of fortune, like a shell that strikes a magazine and blows a battleship to pieces. Al'Queda actually does go in for surveillance of potential targets in a major way, and there is no reason to suppose they did not do so in this instance, to the limit of their ability to carry it out. Your suggestion that a lone man have made a trip beforehand and noted centers of activity inside the Pentagon falls rather short of what would be required, and the knowledge you suggest he could have obtained by soing so seems well in excess of what security in and around that premesis would have allowed.

[k-robjoe]

245. Here I have to

repeat my post on another thread :

"I´m sorry, but your theory that the intent was to hit the inner wall opposite, but then a very slight miscalculation made it the first floor, does not fit with the facts."

You have to study the final approach path to get this.

About finding out that work was being done in one of the wings : You´d see it when driving by in a car; trailors, electrical generator, lots of people working.

[The Magistrate]

227. The Situation In Haiti, Ms. Dream

Is indeed a ghastly one. There, a genuine champion of the people, whose one real fault was perhaps to be too gentle in his measures for safe-guarding them from the worst of their former overlords, has been overthrown by U.S. power and replaced by a crew of murderous thugs chosen to oversee the exploitation of that unhappy people. There is today there a reign of political terror raging there, unremrtked in most quarters, complicated by natural disaster, and with few glimmers of hope in the chaos.

You are quite correct, Ma'am, that every death creates new enemies. We here in "the belly of the beast" are reduced, as a practical matter, to having only the hope that the course of this criminal regime in power in our country will rear up a sufficiency of hostility to, and enemies of, its global designs, to thwart their hope of success. Although you phrase the matter in more vivid terms than is my practice, it is certainly true that the regime we are saddled with in our country intends the greatest degree of exploitation throughout the globe that it can achieve, without rergard to the cost in human suffering this determination to extract profit for a few will entail.

Nonetheless, my friend, on the subject of this particular forum, you will find my views comprised of old oak and iron. To be guilty of some things is not to be guilty of all things; to profit from a thing is not sufficient to prove the profiteer caused the thing. There simply is no evidence worthy of the name that the current regime caused the attacks on the United States in September of 2001, and there seems to me sufficient indication that these were, in fact, carried out by operatives of the al'Queda organization, a body moved by deep hostility to the West, and the United States in particular. There is certainly some evidence of incompetence on several levels by the current regime, and every reason to attack and expose this incompetence. But to go beyond that is to run far in excess of the facts, and leave oneself open to a devesatating political riposte. It may well be tempting; the headlong lunge and the roundhouse hay-maker often are, but they are the most foolish of moves in a fight.

"Do not throw your weight into a stroke whilst your opponent is on guard."

[The Magistrate]

232. Well, Mr. Seat....

At least here you have made some attempt to engage the points presented. It is too early to conclude from this that there is any hope for you, of course: as they say, even a blind chicken pecks up a little corn, and mere random chance would offer you some opportunity, amongst so many tries, for performing a proper action. Your rosy view of matters in what the current regime dubs "the war on terror" is somewhat of a surprise, certainly.

You seem to verge on regurgitating the standard rightist conflation of Hussein with Bin Laden in counting the situation in Iraq today as a set-back for al'Queda. The Ba'athists and Hussein have nothing to do with al'Queda, and the two things epitomize opposite and hostile trends within the Islamic world. The Ba'athist movement is a body of thought loosely based on the Phalangist fascist model, that sought a forced-draft modernization of Islamic society and identified traditional religiousity as one of the most powerful stumbling blocks to this goal. It is true that in his final years Hussein, under great pressure, postured unconvincingly as a champion of Islam, but it changed nothing; Stalin, under the impetus of Nazi invasion, made some real overtures to the Orthodox Church, but this hardly altered the fundamental atheism of the Communist Party, or of Soviet society. To the devout fundamentalists of al'Queda, secularists like the Ba'athists and Hussein are apostates of the worst sort, "confessing Islam with their lips while denying it in their hearts," and such loom as large as enemies, in their world view, as the open un-believers of the West; indeed, they are viewed as agents of the West seeking to subvert Islam from within, rather in the same way an old Birchite viewed liberals and leftists in our country as agents of Soviet conquest from within. The destruction of the Ba'athist rule in Iraq is something an al'Queda militant would be inclined to view as a very good thing.

The idea that the United States "owns" Afghanistan and Iraq today is something that will doubtless bemuse many members of this forum's larger community. Not for nothing is our Afghan puppet Karzai refered to as Mayor of Kabul. All reports from the countryside in that place indicate that Taliban fighters operate freely, controlling great swathes of territory and enjoying the support of the mass of the populace. The hold of the United States on Iraq is not much more secure, and may be less so. Resistance to U.S. occupation grows stronger there every day, and U.S. miltary power is strained near the breaking point to cope with it. The much vaunted "elections" this weekend are likely, in the view of many, to amount to the signal gun for a civil war under the aegis of the U.S. occupation, and in such an imbroglio, militants of all sides will find their most effective bids for popular support against their domestic rivals will be attacks on U.S. targets. No competent observer without an ideological commitment to the endeavor takes a very sanguine view of the prospects there.

In Saudi Arabia, the former U.S. garrison is mostly gone, though of course there is still a great U.S. presence there, and the removal of that garrison was a leading al'Queda demand. Saudi Arabia is clearly in the early stages of revolution, spear-headed by al'Queda militants: this effort may well fail, of course, but it is something that was not a part of the scene there several years ago.

Why you imagine holy warriors would be any more scrupulous about who they kill than plutocrats escapes me. In the case of killing fellow Moslems in actions against Crusaders and Zionists, the theology of these fellows holds that, as such Moslems would have fallen, wittingly or no, in battle to uphold the faith against un-believers seeking to harm it, they will be translated immediately as martyrs into Paradise, and that is hardly a thing to weep over, but rather a triumph, and ordained by the diety they worship anyway. The strikes you reference were strokes against symbols of U.S. power in Moslem regions, embassies and a war-ship, and are the sort of "propagandas of the deed" referenced above. They had some effect along the desired lines sketched in my comments, but lacked the scope of the September attacks, and of course were far below the threshold needed to hope for real effect on the mind of the people of the United States itself.

Similarly, why you should view killing actual members of the leading circles of a U.S. or Israeli administration as some necessary or signifigant thing in this matter is beyond me. Killing members of a government is certainly one way to inflict shock on a populace, but is hardly the only one, and it is certainly not a nessessary one. Wars are frequently conducted without any leading member of the opposing government being killed in them. You would seem here to be afflicted with a sort of video-gamer's view of the business of warfare, under the illusion success in it is a matter of keeping score. It is not. The United States killed tremendously more North Vietnamese than the number of U.S. personnel, and even South Vietnamese personnel, the North Vietnamese managed to kill, and yet it is quite clear who won that war.

"Children make the best opponents at Scrabble, as they are both easy to beat and fun to cheat."

[demodewd]

233. nothing new here...lets move on..

Sounds all billowy,pompous and condescending as usual,Mr Magi. But really...don't inquisitive nine year olds already know all this?

[seatnineb]

239. Wow....

Maggy informs us.....
To the devout fundamentalists of al'Queda, secularists like the Ba'athists and Hussein are apostates of the worst sort, "confessing Islam with their lips while denying it in their hearts," and such loom as large as enemies, in their world view, as the open un-believers of the West;indeed, they are viewed as agents of the West seeking to subvert Islam from within,

I know....I know.......

So ex-CIA stooge Saddam makes way for current CIA stooge Allawi.....

Great acheivments for al-cia-da......

[tngledwebb]

219. Too many words. For those with LESS leisure time, a synopsis:

Bs, bs, bs, bs...and bs.

[The Magistrate]

230. Congratulations On That Splendid Effort, Mt. Webb

No opponent could possibly have managed so convincing a demonstration of how little weight need be attached by any to your comments on serious matters....

[tngledwebb]

234. And once more for the record-bs bs and more bs...and meaningless.

Try this: Bush and friends are a bunch of lying fools and bastards, the worst admin in American history. Do you not agree? I'm only speaking the plain unvarnished truth, as I and many others see it.

So when I type 'bs bs bs' in response to certain posts, it's the same thing. It's merely the best description for the meaning and intent of said posts. Nothing personal.

If only the NYT and MSM, or the average pol, had been as honest and direct, we might not be stuck in this mightmare.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

235. Let's also include premeditated murders, tngledwebb. They led

us into war for their own avarice that has brought the death of well over 100,000 including over 1,300 of our military. They didn't give a damn about those lives, so why would 3000 dead on 9/11 mean anything to them. Especially if they served their purpose.

[tngledwebb]

236. Yes, the proof is in the blood pudding. That MSM and Dem pols

have yet to let out a peep about impeaching most of the Bush admin for the lies that got us into this bloodbath, even excluding 9/11...
well, such deafening silence would be scandalous in a real democracy.

For us in what's left of America, it shows how much work we have ahead.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

237. I agree with you tngledwebb, and I don't know if it is possible to

do the work. Our country has been long gone to us. Although some valiant Dems stood up yesterday in opposition to Rice's confirmation, the proof in that blood pudding will be, how many actually vote to confirm. Keep an eye on that, and an eye, when the time comes for the confirmation of the murderous Gonzales.

I think you will find this audio really interesting, and feel free to pass it on.

This discusses Michael Chertoff,** latest nominee for head of Homeland Security, and his defense of an accused terrorist financier.

Archives of David Emory http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/DX

January 25, 2005: FTR #495: Follow the Money, an Update on 9/11
real audio http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=13993&archive=18050
MP3 listen http://www.wfmu.org/listen.m3u?show=13993&archive=18051

[demodewd]

231. incompetants and fools!

There seems to me a grotesque dis-connect between stigmatizing a band of people as incompetents and fools while claiming they have pulled off, and are getting away with, an extraordinarily large and intricate and deep-layed plot. Incompetents and fools would be unable to manage that; if they did what you believe they did, they are the wiliest and most skillful bunch in history, for that is what the plot you believe in would have required.

Stigmatizing what group of people? Who are you talking about? Bush? Tenet? Rice? Your fallacy is that you assume you know of what fools you talk about.Who is that person(s) behind that curtain with access to the trillion dollar black ops purse? Speak of Cheney,Eberhardt,Meyers. Give a quick synopsis of their professionalism. Are you well read of their careers,their abilities? You are aquainted truly of the day's events with its five airborne excercises being coordinated out of the Pentagon as well as Cheney's office? Have you read Crossing the Rubicon?



Surely persons setting about such a dark and dangerous design would have taken extraordinary steps to hide their tracks, rather than leaving droppings scattered about like a new-born pup.

And what do you know about the lives and "droppings" of these Arab bunch? The Mossad living in the same neighborhood in Venice,FL as Atta .Venice,Fl..that's a CIA retirement area,isn't it? Drinking and covorting,snorting and whoring...with big wads of money on his person at all times flying those Cesnas out of an Airport reputedly CIA and run by some Dutch mob thug tied in with a recruitment scam out of Hamburg Germany bringing in Saudis and other Arabs who were bugged in their apartments while luiving in Hamburg.Atta..the multilingual "terrorist" who spoke Hebrew fluently.This doesn't sound like a bunch of tight lipped Arab religious fanatics. This is sloppy and decadent.

The "evidences" presented for this plot have not impressed me at all. They mostly resolve on examination into the patter of mythomanic grifters, misunderstandings or misrepresentations of basic elements of engineering and combustion, or classic logical fallacies, such as assuming causation from sequence, or collusion from proximity. Most of the rest rely on asserting one or another thing said amidst great muddle represents the sole element of truth, without any allowance for a variety of contradicting statements, or for the confusion of eyewitness testimonies, or the fluididity of human memory, all factors persons practiced at assessing source materials are accustomed to deal with and allow for.

Evidence: Pentagon
1. The bright whitish flash upon impact indicating shaped charges and/or bomb not the initiation of a fuel blast. Compare WTC2.
2.The gaping hole into the A-E drive, not a result of plane or materials from a fuel blast but indicates a jet fuel created by shaped charges.
3.Heat level of fire.Too hot for a fuel fire. Its oval shape and whitish color indicates charges/bomb.
4. Common ID of plane as Flight 77. One can't assume that a commercial plane that looks like a 757 is necessarily Flight 77.
5. Lack of recorded body parts on lawn and hiway. The plane obviously exploded at impact or just before as evidenced by location of main inferno. Yet though plane parts rained down like confetti on the Pentalawn and Hiway there were no reports of body parts even though Barbara Olsen alleged that the passengers and crew had been moved to the back of the plane's cabin.

That's enough for now.

[radwriter0555]

84. Yes. I firmly believe bush & the PNAC hired the 911 thugs.

NOt one IOTA of doubt in my mind.

NOTHING could convince me otherwise.

[bobthedrummer]

94. At a minimum it was LIHOP.

[anarchy1999]

118. Never Let it Go. Thanks and very sorry.

n/t

[TNOE]

117. You know how you really know??

All the WEALTHY who were housed in the WTC had been invited to a meeting the morning of 9/11....... now isn't that interesting? They saved the rich as usual, and left the rest to their own demise. It had to have a HUGE impact, otherwise, goals would not have been accomplished.

Some day - maybe even some day soon - the truth of 9/11 will be exposed. The rest of the world knows it - its only Americans with their controlled media that is completely blind to the truth.

Marvin Bush being in control of the security of the WTC?? It was a family affair to be sure.

[anarchy1999]

123. Asking for trouble, just let it alone. Probably a wise move for you.

n/t

[JohnLocke]

126. Bullshit.

All the WEALTHY who were housed in the WTC had been invited to a meeting the morning of 9/11....... now isn't that interesting? They saved the rich as usual, and left the rest to their own demise. It had to have a HUGE impact, otherwise, goals would not have been accomplished.

I've never heard that before.

[The Magistrate]

128. Indeed, Mr. Locke

It is indeed a heaping pile of barn-yard effluvia. Now that you have seen it here, of course, you may rely upon seeing it repeated elsewhere in such discussions as gospel. After all, it can now be found on the internet....

[seemslikeadream]

132. Maybe this - Warren Buffett the morning of 9/11

So where was Warren Buffett the morning of 9/11 and what was he doing?

Mr. Buffett was reportedly at his home in Omaha, Nebraska watching TV when he heard about the terrorist attacks. He was getting ready to host his "last annual golf charity event" which just happened to be at the U.S. Strategic Command headquarters located at Offutt Air Force Base in Omaha. Offutt AFB is, coincidentally, where President G. W. Bush flew to on Air Force One later in the day for "safety". This early golf charity event hosted by Mr. Buffett was to include celebrities, professional athletes, and a small group of business leaders in which one of these business leaders became a very lucky person.

This very lucky person was Ann Tatlock, the CEO of Fiduciary Trust Co. International. Now what made Mrs. Tatlock such a lucky person for being invited to this charity event that morning? Mrs. Tatlock not only works in the World Trade Center, but her offices were right where Flight 175 crashed into the WTC 2.
http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/buffett.html

[JohnLocke]

133. So? She got lucky.

See Ockham's Razor.

[bobbyboucher]

134. The list is long and distinguished.

But it is just a coincidnece.

[The Magistrate]

148. Where Is This List, Mr. Boucher?

Surely, too, you can accompany it with a list of ill-fated recent hires,and ill-starred visitors, who otherwise would have been far from the scene?

It is understandable that the chaotic nature of events is often resisted: our minds seem set to seek patterns in the things around us; that is how we learn and influence the world around us, and there are some real patterns in the world it is useful to apprehend. But this predisposition often leads people to impose patterns on the world that are not really there, and no good ever comes of this.

[seemslikeadream]

140. I have if you mean Occam's Razor

"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate"
"Frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora"
"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"

[JohnLocke]

142. Either spelling is acceptable

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ockham%27s_Razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Ockham
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ockham%2C_Surrey

[JackRiddler]

170. Occam's Razor is not a law...

merely a heuristic suggesting we should prefer the simpler hypothesis in the natural sciences until falsified.

The interesting thing about human affairs is that people know how other people think, and therefore know how to deceive each other. Occam's razor is often inapplicable to politics, or to crime. A rock falling from a cliff cannot issue a press release to insist it is actually going up. Whereas (the metaphor aside) people engage in deceptive behavior all the time. In political discussions, citing occam's razor as though it were definitive is a cheap out, very similar to cries of "conspiracy theory" (which are only ever heard in denial of our own government's possible plots).

And what's simpler? What's our field of view? If you look at the world-situation leading up to 9/11, you'll see that an inside job is a much simpler explanation for the timing and convenience and aftermath of the attacks than the hypothesis of 19 guys with knives.

[The Magistrate]

171. Not So, Mr. Riddler

Nineteen fellows with knives is a far, far simpler explaination than what you propose....

"Shit happens."

[TNOE]

143. Thank you - beat me to it

Amazing people call facts bullshit and conspiracies - when the official 9/11 story is the biggest bullshit conspiracy.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0206/S00071.htm

As mentioned earlier, the Bush administration had PLENTY of information that would lead them to believe the Pentagon and other major national landmarks were at high risk of a terrorist attack, especially in the summer and fall of 2001. Many warnings had come over the previous 8 years that the Pentagon could be a target of a terrorist attack, not only that but part of a multiple-strike terrorist attack. In fact, this possibility seemed so plausible that in November 2000 a disaster response exercise was held by the Military District of DC that simulated a plane hitting the Pentagon. So, September 11 finds Bush and several other key administrators safely removed from DC –Bush, at a Florida elementary school, is strategically NOWHERE NEAR a national landmark that morning. John Ashcroft has stopped flying on commercial airliners and is in the wilds of Missouri, via private jet, fishing. Cheney is at an "undisclosed location" (his bunker, probably). Jeb Bush, from September 7, has the Florida National Guard on standby. A collection of top CEOs of companies based at the WTC are attending a charity event at Offutt Air Base in Omaha at 8:00 AM on 9/11 (rather odd time, doncha think?) –the same base to which Bush flees later in the same day. Rumsfeld is at the Pentagon –but in the wedge FURTHEST from what will be the point of impact.

So, while the Bush administration and its pals were maneuvering into the safest possible positions, the folks at the Pentagon (and the workers and "expendable" CEOs at the WTC, of course) were left to their fate, no warning given to them at all. Given the above info on the administration's awareness of the threat to the Pentagon, it seems reasonable to expect that the MINUTE the news was heard about the WTC being hit that the Pentagon should have been evacuated IMMEDIATELY as a precaution until further notice. At the very least, after the SECOND TOWER was hit! At that point, the multiple-strike scenario should have been so hideously obvious. Yet the workers were left at their posts like sitting ducks. Was this incompetence, intent to kill, or was it something else?


THE WARNINGS -
Foreign_Intelligence_Warnings
by Paul Thompson.

WARNINGS THAT THE DANGER WOULD COME FROM THE AIR

BRITAIN, WARNING #1: Al-Qaeda is planning to use aircraft in "unconventional ways", "possibly as flying bombs"

1999 (C): MI6, the British intelligence agency, gives a secret report to liaison staff at the US embassy in London. The reports states that al-Qaeda has plans to use "commercial aircraft" in "unconventional ways", "possibly as flying bombs."

BRITAIN, WARNING #3: An Al-Qaeda attack will involve multiple hijackings

Early August 2001 (C): Britain gives the US another warning about an al-Qaeda attack. The previous British warning (see July 16, 2001) was vague as to method, but this warning specifies multiple airplane hijackings. This warning is included in Bush's briefing on August 6.

CAYMAN ISLANDS, WARNING #2: Three al-Qaeda agents are part of a plot "organizing a major terrorist act against the US via an airline or airlines"

August 29, 2001: Three men from either Pakistan or Afghanistan living in the Cayman Islands are briefly arrested in June 2001 for discussing hijacking attacks in New York City (see June 4, 2001). On this day, a Cayman Islands radio station receives an unsigned letter claiming these same three men are agents of bin Laden. The anonymous author warns that they "are organizing a major terrorist act against the US via an airline or airlines." The letter is forwarded to a Cayman government official but no action is taken until after 9/11 and it isn't known when the US is informed. Many criminals and/or businesses use the Cayman Islands as a safe, no tax, no questions asked haven to keep their money. The author of the letter meets with the FBI shortly after 9/11, and claims his information was a "premonition of sorts." The three men are later arrested. Its unclear what has happened to them since their arrest. FTW

EGYPT, WARNING #1: An undercover agent learns 20 al-Qaeda agents are in the US, four have received flight training


http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/foreignwarnings.html

BUSH SR MET WITH BIN LADEN ON 9/11

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/041203metwithbinladen.html
http://www.davidicke.com/icke/index1c.html


Newseek journalists Evan Thomas and Mark Hosenball reported on Septemberm24, 2001 that a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans for September 11, 2001, apparently because of security concerns. Newsweek removed the story from the internet but you can read the transcript at the url below. Here is the relevant excerpt....
"On Sept. 10, NEWSWEEK has learned, a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns." (See yellow highlighted section)
http://www.freepressinternational.com/sept10.html

MARVIN BUSH
http://anderson.ath.cx:8000/911/hj05.html

STOCK OPTION TRADING
http://www.rense.com/general46/911.html

PRIOR WTC FLIGHTS
http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2003_12_01_xymphora_archive.html#107284533382009522

BUSH FAMILY MACHINISMS
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/11/1546689.php

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/newsArticle.asp?id=1477

http://www.beachnet.com/~hoffman/Bush.html

WAR GAMES

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,786992,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,778070,00.html

[seemslikeadream]

149. Thanks TNOE Great links!

:hi:

[TNOE]

151. Hi!

You're still the BEST!!!!! Never cease to amaze me! :hi:

[MsTryska]

131. Where did you get this info?

do you have documentation?

[seemslikeadream]

137. see post 132

So was it just a coincidence that the 2nd richest man in the world was hosting his "last" annual golf charity event that particular morning at U.S. Strategic Command headquarters and what are the odds that a CEO was invited who's offices were right where one of the hijacked airplanes crashed into?

Some immediate questions that arise from this charity event:

1. Who choose that date for this charity golf event to be held on a Sept. 11th and when was this date set? Is this "annual" golf event always held on a Sept. 11th?

2. Who were the celebrities, professional athletes, and the rest of the business leaders that attended, why were they invited, and who invited them? Did any of the other CEO's invited to this charity event work at the WTC?

3. Why was this the "last" annual golf charity event Mr. Buffett was going to host?

An interesting angle about Ann Tatlock's company, Fiduciary Trust Co. International, is that President Bush's nominee to head the panel that's investigating the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks, Thomas Kean, used to serve as the company's director which has a lot of wealthy clients.
http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/buffett.html

[Sterling]

145. Some of the bigwigs were at offit AFB with Buffet.

And miraculously no super rich were killed that day. Just mid management and under mostly.

[jeanarrett]

136. I've been reading up on this

There was another thread here at DU about this and the 911 families suing the current administration in a class action suit. Stanley Hilton is the Plaintiff's attorney and apparently went to college with Wolfowitz, et al when Leo Strauss was their professor. I went to Hilton's site which is now at www.suetheterrorists.net. His old website is infected with several viruses; don't even go there. By the way, his suit was dismissed a couple of days ago by a federal judge. Big surprise. Interestingly, it was not dismissed for "lack of evidence," however, but for the Doctrine of Sovereign Immunity.

There is a wealth of information on his site. Some of it is quite historical and very interesting. From there, I've gone to other links. Some of the interesting reading is "Power of the Nightmare" and go ahead and google "Leo Strauss." You'll find from reading this stuff that 911 being an inside job is not such a farfeteched idea and that what is happening in this administration today has been in the planning for 30+ years. It's all about controlling the masses with fear, even if you have to create the fear and set forth fantasy as truth. Fascinating reading, whether you believe it or not. Some of the articles I read also told how Rumsfeld kept the whole "cold war" fear thing going in Ford's administration even though the CIA at the time said "no way," none of the stuff he claims the Soviets are doing is fact. We can't find it. Rumsfeld & Co.'s claim was that because you can't find any evidence of it just means that they're better than we thought they were. It was all fantasy. Keep up the fear. The end justifies the means.

[orpupilofnature57]

144. "We need another Pearl Harbor! Hmmmm

[MellowOne]

156. An inside job

I quit as a flight attendant in April 2001. On 9/11 as I watched the events unfold, I knew it was an inside job. I was actually yelling at the televison, "This can't happen! Where aren't they scambling jets!" I've flown in the cockpits a few times, and whenever a plane gets off their flight plan, the tower has to give clearance because of legal separation. Four planes out of control, alarms should be going off all over the country. Also, we secure (lock) the cockpit doors before take-off to allow for "sterile cockpit." In the 911 reports, they said the cockpit doors were unlocked. That doesn't make sense. Someone must have given them keys.

All of our security systems broke down that day. Too wierd. There were several other things but I won't go into it.

But what really confirmed it for me was when the White House resisted an investigation into 9/11. It took victims survivors to get the investigation put into action. Also, the White House was warned about possible attacks but ignored them. Why? Because they wanted them to happen.

[TNOE]

158. Welcome to DU

MellowOne :hi:

Very good post. You're on it, you know better. Shame so many don't. If they would get it - we might just get our country back.
But they choose to wave their little American flags and pay no attention to reality.

[robertpaulsen]

159. One of the big forgotten lies of 9/11: brought to you by Karl Rove.

White House lied about threat to Air Force One
By Jerry White
28 September 2001


In a further column in the New York Times on September 13, entitled “Inside the Bunker,” Safire described a conversation with an unnamed “high White House official,” who told him, “A threatening message received by the Secret Service was relayed to the agents with the president that ‘Air Force One is next.’” Safire continued: “According to the high official, American code words were used showing a knowledge of procedures that made the threat credible.”

Safire reported that this information was confirmed by Rove, who told him Bush had wanted to return to Washington but the Secret Service “informed him that the threat contained language that was evidence that the terrorists had knowledge of his procedures and whereabouts.”

Two weeks after these astonishing claims, the administration has all but admitted it concocted the entire story. CBS Evening News reported September 25 that the call “simply never happened.”

snip

One thing is clear: the government lied to the people of America and the world. Either it lied on September 12 when it issued the story of the threat to Air Force One, or it lied two weeks later when it retracted the story. The millions of people who are being told they must accept unbridled militarism and the gutting of their democratic rights in the name of a holy war against terrorism must draw the appropriate conclusions from this indisputable fact.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/sep2001/bush-s28.shtml



So, which lie do you think is actually the truth? Taking into account the "coincidence" that these 19 hijackers just happened to pick a date to attack at the same time Operation Vigilant Warrior and other similar wargame exercises were being conducted involving the hijacking of airline jets, I'd have to go with the first.



Any guesses as to who Safire's unnamed "high White House official" could possibly be? :)

[RBHam]

160. George Bush is no Jack Kennedy

When Operation Northwoods was proposed by the Joint Chiefs after Castro had gained power in Cuba, JFK was horrified and killed it...

That act may have been one of the reasons the Military Industrial Syndicate decided he had to go...

Think about it. The Bush crime family is wed to the above mentioned Syndicate through the Carlyle Group - if Junior was presented with a modern version of "Operation Northwoods" and it had the backing of the influential PNACers who advance their agenda through this Administration...

Use logic, follow the money and learn from history...

Also, realize that any time the epithet of "Conspiracy Theorist!" is used to avoid discussing the truth...then those who use such tactics demean only themselves

[seemslikeadream]

162. Review of FBI's Actions in Connection With Allegations by Sibel Edmonds

A Review of the FBI's Actions in Connection With Allegations Raised By Contract Linguist Sibel Edmonds
U.S. Department of Justice
Office of the Inspector General
UNCLASSIFIED SUMMARY

Office of the Inspector General
Office of Oversight and Review

January 2005

I. INTRODUCTION
This report describes the Office of the Inspector General's (OIG) investigation of allegations raised by Sibel Edmonds, a former Contract Linguist (CL) for the Federal Bureau ofInvestigation (FBI). Edmonds worked for the FBI from September 20, 2001, until March 2002, when her services as a CL for the FBI were terminated. Before that termination, she had raised a series of allegations regarding the FBI's CL program, including security concerns about actions by a co-worker related to potential espionage.

...

IX. CONCLUSION
The majority of the allegations raised by Edmonds related to the actions of a co-worker. The allegations raised serious concerns that, if true, could potentially have extremely damaging consequences for the FBI. These allegations warranted a thorough and careful review by the FBI.

Our investigation concluded that the FBI did not, and still has not, adequately investigated these allegations. Our review also found that many - although not all - of Edmonds' allegations about the co-worker had some basis in fact. This evidence does not prove, and we are not suggesting, that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that espionage or any improper disclosures of FBI information occurred. However, we believe the FBI should have taken Edmonds' allegations more seriously and investigated them more thoroughly. As discussed in this report, the FBI's investigation of the information regarding the co-worker was significantly flawed. Had the FBI investigated the claims thoroughly, it would have found that many of Edmonds' allegations regarding the co-worker were supported by documentary evidence or other witnesses. Instead, the FBI seems to have discounted Edmonds' allegations, believing she was a disruptive influence and not credible, and eventually terminated her services. Even now, the FBI has not carefully investigated the allegations about the co-worker to determine if the co-worker compromised any FBI information. In light of the need for FBI vigilance about security issues, as demonstrated by the Hanssen case, we believe the FBI should have investigated these serious allegations more thoroughly.

Edmonds also alleged that the FBI retaliated against her by terminating her services as a CL. We concluded that Edmonds' allegations were at least a contributing factor in why the FBI terminated her services. We recognize that the FBI Whistle blower regulations do not apply to Edmonds because she was a contractor rather than an FBI employee. We also recognize that her varied and insistent allegations of misconduct may have been frustrating, and that not all of her allegations were true. However, many of her allegations had a basis in fact, and the way the FBI responded to her allegations contributed to her persistent claims. Moreover, we believe the FBI should not discourage employees or contractors from raising good-faith allegations of misconduct or mismanagement and the FBI's termination of Edmonds' services may discourage others from raising such concerns.

more

http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/m-news+article+storyid-4742.html

[Sterling]

163. WTF is going on why is this thread moved out of GD.

Sorry this thread should not be dumped in a obscure part of the site.

It is sad if DU is going to let a bunch of MSM RW'ers decide what can be discussed.

[MercutioATC]

168. Because it's got "9/11" right in the friggin' title?

...generally, 9/11 threads go in the.......


....you got it....

"9/11 Forum"

[Sterling]

173. It's bullshit to put threads like this in an obscure forum.

If 9-11 can't be GD in this day and age we should all just stop voting and paying attention period.

Lots of threqads have 9-11 related subjects in the title. Hell everything these days is a 9-11 related subject. This just seems like a cowardly attempt to appease the RW freaks.

[The Magistrate]

178. Why, Mr. Sterling?

The thing seems an eminently sensible measure to me. The arguments and "evidence" put forward by those who maintain the thing was somehow contrived by the current regime assay out to such a high degree of frivolity that they rival the contents of the Lounge on a late weekend night for comedic incoherence.

[Abe Linkman]

181. Well, yes. Sure. Now that YOU'RE here.

n/t

[The Magistrate]

183. You Know, Dear

A casual spectator might get the impression you do not like me very much....

"Who has no enemies has no friends."

[seatnineb]

186. Judging........

............by this thread...

You seem to have many friends.......

[The Magistrate]

191. Indeed, Sir

You need to get out more: you are not only new here, but seem to lead a rather cloistered existance, mostly in this fever swamp....

"They don't take chocolate money out in the big world, Arthur."

[seatnineb]

193. Thanks but no thanks...

I love it when it gets cloistered in here......

And especially when such exalted company that the likes of you duly provide only wants to make me stay in here all that much more....

[demodewd]

184. Indeed

Indeed. You are funny. Chortle chortle. Dear.

[The Magistrate]

190. And You Are Not, Sir

Though you will insist on trying....

"You can't cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve."

[seatnineb]

187. The Epitome

.........of comedic incoherence....

Posted by The Magistrate

Fri Jan-21-05 07:42 PM

Your Implication, Sir ....That disagreement with you on this matter equates to support for the criminals of the '00 Coup is noted. It seems to be a staple of those who worship at the church of ultra-conspitacy that any who disagree are merely agents in some way of the grand conspirators. It is a common mental defense mechanism, that serves to shield believers from having to consider arguments against the articles of their faith, in rather the same manner as imputing Satanic inspiration to evolutionary or psychiatric theory serves a devout fundamentalist.

It would be tedious to rehearse in its entirity the body of my differences with, and detestation for, the current regime and its policies. The wrecking of the national fisc, the squeezing of wages, the thieveries of crony capitalism, the attempt to in essence roll back the New Deal, the exhaltation of a pernicious religiousity in national life, the embarcation on a course of imperial adventure and the studied incompetence with which that ill-conceived venture is being pursued, would constitute only a selection among the highlights.

However, Sir, there is really very little about the al'Queda attacks that much alarms me. They did, and do, highlight the degree of incompetence and inertia in the bureaucracies charged with security in a time of peace, but that is the normal state of such bureaucracies in times of peace. It is quite clear that the degree to which a foreign foe was capable of striking the United States was greatly under-rated, but that, too, is very normal: we are rather prone, here, to under-rate the capabilities of browner peoples to do anything, and that we should have under-rated Arabs surprises me no more than that we under-rated Japanese, and continue to under-rate Chinese. Without surprise, it is difficult to summon up much in the way of alarm.

[The Magistrate]

189. Thank You For Repeating My Words, Sir

Repetition is one of the major tools for driving home a point, and your assistance with communicating one of mine made elsewhere in this discussion is much appreciated.

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

[seatnineb]

192. Don't mention it!

.....But I think I will stick to your contradictions with regards to driving home the point......

Like this:

Posted By The Magistrate

Fri Jan-21-05 07:22 PM


"The thing seems an eminently sensible measure to me. The arguments and "evidence" put forward by those who maintain the thing was somehow contrived by the current regime assay out to such a high degree of frivolity that they rival the contents of the Lounge on a late weekend night for comedic incoherence."

Not bad ..............

Is that the reason why the number of posts emanating from your keyboard have gone into double figures in this very same forum over the last 48 hours....

[The Magistrate]

196. Well, Sir

One takes pleasures where they can be found, and the unlooked for are often the sweetest, as in the celebrated tale of the sailor and the glass-eyed whore.

This particular discussion, you will note, popped up in General Discussion initially, and curiousity about a reply to one of my comments on it drew me down here after its transfer. It has literally been years since my last look into this peculiar niche of Democratic Underground, and so it seemed, having come here, worth taking a brief look about. Few of the old names remain, and even many of the old "evidences" and arguments have dissolved even for believers, apparently, though it is clear the game remains the same. My usual battle-ground of Israel v. Palestine being somewhat quiescent just now, this place seemed to offer prospect of some low sport for a while. Doubtless it will soon come to bore me, as it is all monumentally insignifigant, and the opposition too unskilled to offer much by way of challenge. Persons convinced of irrational things cannot be reached by rational argument, for reason has formed no part of their coming to hold their views, which are merely compounds of emotion and ignorance suspended in obsession. To wrestle with them for any great length of time, one must be as obsessed with opposing them as they are with constructing and spreading their intricate imaginings, and my own obsessions, thankfully, lie in other directions....

"Children make the best opponents at Scrabble, as they are both easy to beat and fun to cheat."

[seatnineb]

202. Should that be retranslated as "I am in denial".

....and just for good measure.....

I am popping over to the Israel-Palestinian forum......

It is one of my most favourite subject matters....

Look forward to seeing you there.

[demodewd]

204. prattle

Such long and silly prattle for someone who says nothing of substance.

[NecessaryOnslaught]

198. You mean the forum your were calling out Skinner to shut down??

that the one Merc??

[MercutioATC]

199. Skinner banned bizarre tsunami theories.

In the thread discussing it, I jokingly asked if bizarre 9/11 theories could be purged too.

If I was really that interested in having this forum "shut down". I'd simply stop posting here.


geez....


:eyes:

[tngledwebb]

176. Good post and well written summary, JR.

Interesting that the responses show a majority going toward MIHOP, and very few 'Official Theory' supporters. Wonder if that makes DU a hotbed of crazy CT'ers, and if NYT/MSM would like to talk about that 'CT' someday? Nah, didn't think so.

And maybe its time to bring the 9/11 forum back to the light.
Or maybe too late?

[AZCat]

177. I'd be okay with being able to list it under "My Forums"

But I do wonder how long its status will be indeterminate. It certainly gets more posts than any of the three other forums in the "Archived and Leftover Forums" area.

[RBHam]

200. Allegiance to a paradigm blinds even the most logical among us...

"It could never happen here" displays a sad, pathetic desire among the vast majority of the US citizenry to simply refuse to accept facts...

George W Bush is no Jack kennedy...

Operation Northwoods

National Security Archive, 30 April 2001
Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG), globalresearch.ca, 16 November 2001

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/NOR111A.html

In his new exposé of the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS. This document, titled “Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba” was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake “Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,” including “sink a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),” faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a “Remember the Maine” incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods “may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.”

The Declassified document can be consulted at:

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf

[alexisfree]

258. I do believe 9-11 was a inside job.

[flyarm]

262. this from a 9/11 commissioner is a total lie!

this story from bob kerry a 9/11 commissioner is a total lie..and it would be against all proceedures for any airline and any airline e4mployee not to take a call from a crew memeber totally seriously ..this is a bold faced lie..and i have since confronted personally bob kerry and i called him a liar!! he could not and would not answer me!
fly

The New York Times > Washington > Pre-9/11 Files Show Warnings Were More Dire and Persistent
April 18, 2004
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/18/politics/18SEPT.html?th

Pre-9/11 Files Show Warnings Were More Dire and Persistent

WASHINGTON, April 17 — Early this year, the independent commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks played four minutes of a call from Betty Ong, a crew member on American Airlines Flight 11. The power of her call could not have been plainer: in a calm voice, Ms. Ong told her supervisors about the hijacking, the weapons the attackers had used, the locations of their seats.

At first, however, Ms. Ong's reports were greeted skeptically by some officials on the ground. "They did not believe her," said Bob Kerrey, a commission member. "They said, `Are you sure?' They asked her to confirm that it wasn't air-rage. Our people on the ground were not prepared for a hijacking."

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

in these statements i believe with all my training and years of flying bob kerry is a lying sac of crap and he is perpetrating a bold faced lie...no one would ask a flight crew if they are sure they are being hijacked..no one with any airline!! proceedures would have been followed immediately .no airlines personel makes jokes or is unsure of calling in a hijacking..this is total b.s. by bob kerry and whoever is involved in the 9/11 coverup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

from fly ......... a just retired 33 yr american airlines flight attendant ny based 2001 flight attendant of the yr ny base

[flyarm]

263. total cover up !! 9/11 commission a fraud!

The Complete Failure of the 9-11 Commission
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KAN403A.html

Chairman of 9/11 Commission had business ties with Osama's Brother in Law , Michel Chossudovsky
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO212A.html



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/28/eveningnews/main325887.shtml

In a tale as twisted as the hunt for Osama bin Laden, CBS Evening News has been told that the night before the Sept. 11 terrorists attack, Osama bin Laden was in Pakistan. He was getting medical treatment with the support of the very military that days later pledged its backing for the U.S. war on terror in Afghanistan.

Pakistan intelligence sources tell CBS News that bin Laden was spirited into a military hospital in Rawalpindi for kidney dialysis treatment.

"On that night," said a medical worker who wanted her identity protected, "they moved out all the regular staff in the urology department and sent in a secret team to replace them." She said it was treatment for a very special person and "the special team was obviously up to no good."

"They military had him surrounded," said a hospital employee who also wanted his identity masked, "and I saw the mysterious patient helped out of a car. Since that time," he said, "I have seen many pictures of the man. He is the man we know as Osama bin Laden. I also heard two army officers talking to each other. They were saying that Osama bin Laden had to be watched carefully and looked after."


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/27/eveningnews/main596316.shtml

A Voice From 9/11


(CBS) Approximately 26 minutes before American Airlines Flight 11 crashed into the World Trade Center on 9/11, airline officials received a cool - totally under control - phone call from a flight attendant working in the rear cabin of the Boeing 767.

Betty Ong - known as "Bee" to her friends - had worked for American for 14 years.

Today, with her family listening in, a government commission investigating 9/11 played a tape of that call. Ong's was the first voice on the tape.

"The cockpit is not answering. Somebody is stabbed in business class and, um, I think there is some mace," she said. "We can't breathe. I don't know, but I think we're getting hijacked."



bless them all ..they were my co-workers, and my american airlines family...fly

[flyarm]

260. if it wasn't an inside job why the coverup??

flashback: FAA Manager Mangled, Cut, Destroyed 9/11 Tapes
Posted Sep 21, 2004 01:27 PM PST
Category: 911
According to the report given to the 9/11 Commission by Department of Transportation Inspector General Kenneth Mead, the audiotape was crushed in the hand of the unnamed FAA employee, then cut into small pieces and tossed into different trash cans around the ARTCC building.

http://www.avweb.com/newswire/10_20a/briefs/187259-1.html
snip:
Information provided to the commission investigating the U.S. government's response to terrorist threats prior to September 11, 2001, names an FAA quality manager in the destruction of an audiotape made in the aftermath of the 9/11 hijackings. Each of at least six air traffic controllers and some ten other employees who were on the job at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) in Ronkonkoma, N.Y., during the World Trade Center attacks gathered several hours after to recall their version of events. But that tape, which could have helped determine how the agency responded to clues that four planes had been hijacked, was destroyed before it was ever heard. In fact, officials at the ARTCC were never even told of the tape's existence. According to the report given to the 9/11 Commission by Department of Transportation Inspector General Kenneth Mead, the audiotape was crushed in the hand of the unnamed FAA employee, then cut into small pieces and tossed into different trash cans around the ARTCC building.



how many ways do americans need to see a coverup before they wake up to the truth??

from fly ..just retired 33 yr american airlines flight attendant ny base

[flyarm]

264. 9/11 commission total fraud!

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/subs/print/0,15935,410237,00.html


FIRST
Five Degrees of Osama
FORTUNE
Wednesday, January 22, 2003
By Nicholas Stein


In December, President Bush named Thomas Kean, the former Republican governor of New Jersey, chairman of an independent commission examining the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. But FORTUNE has learned that Kean appears to have a bizarre link to the very terror network he's investigating--al Qaeda.

Here's how the dots connect: Kean is a director of petroleum giant Amerada Hess, which in 1998 formed a joint venture--known as Delta Hess--with Delta Oil, a Saudi Arabian company, to develop oil fields in Azerbaijan. One of Delta's backers is Khalid bin Mahfouz, a shadowy Saudi patriarch married to one of Osama bin Laden's sisters. Mahfouz, who is suspected of funding charities linked to al Qaeda, is even named as a defendant in a lawsuit filed by families of Sept. 11 victims. True, Hess is hardly the only company to cross paths with Mahfouz: He has shown up in dealings with, among others, ultra-secretive investment firm Carlyle Group and BCCI, the lender toppled by fraud in 1992.

Kean, who was unavailable for comment, may not have been aware of the Mahfouz connection. But Hess spokesman Carl Tursi did reveal another interesting coincidence: Three weeks before Kean's appointment, Hess severed its ties with Delta.




fraud nothing less!! fly

[flyarm]

265. link too old..but.....

look up david shippers....

Summer 2001. Former chief investigative counsel warned U.S. Justice Department that FBI believed terrorists were planning to attack lower Manhattan

(a) David Shippers, a Chicago attorney who had been the chief investigative counsel in the attempted impeachment of Clinton, warned the U.S. Justice Department that a massive terrorist attack had been planned for lower Manhattanbased on what FBI agents from Chicago and Minnesota had told him. His warning was shunned by officials, one of which stated, "We don't start our investigations at the top." (cited in Grigg 3-11-2002)

(b) During an October 10, 2001 radio interview, he revealed that he had warned "Attorney General John Ashcroft and Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert that he had proof from a credible source (that he has still not revealed) about a plot to use hijacked commercial airliners to ram the White House and Capitol." (Chin 5-19-2002)

(d) On May 30 2002, one of Shipper’s sources in the FBI, Special Agent Robert Wright disclosed in a testimony broadcasted on C-SPAN that FBI officials and other agents had 'stymied’ his own investigations into suspected terrorists. (Horrock 5-30-2002)

Ellen Mariani's RICO Suit against Bush et al.

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266. * knew and did nothing but lie!!

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayairdefense.html

snip:

Foreign Government Warnings of Planes as Weapons

Numerous foreign governments warned the US that it was likely to be attacked by airplanes used as weapons. In 1999, the British warned that al-Qaeda had plans to use "commercial aircraft" in "unconventional ways, possibly as flying bombs." In early August 2001, Britain gave a categorical warning that the US should expect multiple airline hijackings. This warning was passed on to Bush a short time later. In June 2001, Germany warned that Middle Eastern terrorists were planning to hijack commercial aircraft and use them as weapons to attack "American and Israeli symbols, which stand out." In August, Russian President Putin warned the US that suicide pilots were training for attacks on US targets.

In late July 2001, "Egyptian intelligence ... from one of its operatives in Afghanistan that 20 al-Qaeda members had slipped into the US and four of them had received flight training on Cessnas. To the Egyptians, pilots of small planes didn't sound terribly alarming, but they passed on the message to the CIA anyway, fully expecting Washington to request information. The request never came." This closely matches the details of the actual 9/11 plot, with its four pilots who trained on Cessnas. Around the end of August, Egyptian intelligence followed up with a warning that al-Qaeda was in the advanced stages of executing a significant operation against an American target, probably within the US. Jordan passed on the message that a major attack, code named the "Big Wedding," was planned inside the US and that aircraft would be used. "Big Wedding" was in fact al-Qaeda's secret code name for the 9/11 attacks.

Israel went even further, warning in mid-August 2001 that between 50 to 200 al-Qaeda terrorists had slipped into the US and were planning an imminent, "major assault on the United States." They said it was likely to be on a "large scale target" (the CIA has denied this warning). On August 23, Israel even gave the CIA a list of 19 terrorists living in the US who were about to stage an attack. It's not known if these were the exact same 19 hijackers as in the 9/11 attack, but at least four of the names on the list were the same: Nawaf Alhazmi, Khalid Almihdhar, Marwan Alshehhi, and Mohamed Atta. Apparently Israeli agents had been monitoring the hijackers inside the US for months. For instance, beginning in December 2000, agents lived a few blocks from Marwan Alshehhi and Mohamed Atta, and observed them "around the clock."


Jane Garvey, FAA Administrator at the time of 9/11, testifying before the 9/11 Commission.

An al-Qaeda Attack Expected Within the US



fly

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267. conflicts of 9/11 commissioners!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/15/terror/main593493.shtml

The New York Times reports the director of the panel's staff, Philip D. Zelikow, has been interviewed by his own subordinates because he was an adviser on foreign policy to the team that oversaw the transition from President Clinton to President Bush.

Allies of Mr. Bush have said his predecessor did not do enough to protect the United States from al Qaeda, but Clinton loyalists have said it was the Bush administration that failed to grasp the terrorist threat.

Discussions about al Qaeda during the transition in late 2000 and early 2001 might be essential to the panel's inquiry.

The Times reports Zelikow is also close to national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, whose briefings of the president might also be key to the inquiry.

[flyarm]

268. * fraud!! a must read!!

please read entire article!!


http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1045


Debriefing of meeting today with Spitzer's Senior Assistant-
Karl Schwarz: 9/11 docs to NY AG Eliot Spitzer

by Karl W. B. Schwarz

Thursday, November 18 -FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE-

Hello Concerned Americans,

Several key documents were delivered Wednesday, November 17, 2004 by one of my associates / friends to the Senior Assistant to Eliot Spitzer, Attorney General of the State of New York. Some readers may not recognize that name but Mr. Spitzer is the person responsible for levying several billion in fines against Wall Street firms for a wide variety of financial scams put forth on all Americans but he focused appropriately on what was done to citizens of New York and the Pension Fund of New York state employees.

Since 9-11 was in part conducted upon the State of New York, criminal prosecution against appropriate parties is properly sited for venue and jurisdiction of such an investigation, a Grand Jury, and prosecution of the parties involved, some of which you will learn about as you read on.

A friend of mine from Connecticut went to Spitzer's office to hand deliver the materials and a separate package arrived from Europe by overnight courier...

We are not disclosing yet the names, companies, extent of the information provided for that would tip off where some of the information came from and possibly endanger those persons. Suffice to say, a blind man could follow the trail now that they know where to start, and where the trails end.

She delivered the following items:

First, a full and complete copy of the Demand Letter I sent to Bush, Kerry and DNC around 1 PM, September 30, 2004 demanding answers from Bush on 30 items that are glaring lies and cover ups of his Administration. That document can be seen at the following link if any of you missed that Demand Letter:

(here)

The state democratic parties of every swing state also got the demand letter. That it was never used by the Democrats to discredit Bush should tell you much as to the fallacy of this year's presidential election.

Secondly, we delivered a letter by Sibel D. Edmonds, FBI translator that was co-signed by 24 other former federal employees from CIA, DIA, FBI, DoD and other agencies of the United States government. That letter was dated September 13, 2004 and represents a critique of the 9-11 Commission "Omissions Report" that has been so glowingly written up in the lame media as a work of art by that commission. Well, I have to agree - the 9-11 Commission Report is a "work of art" of a cover up and an excellent fiction read for any of you that missed it.

I have made it clear in other writings that 8 of the 10 commissioners have so many conflicts of interests, their appointment to the 9-11 Commissioner is clearly to be directors of a cover up.

This is copied and pasted from the Sibel Edmonds letter and note who signed it and who received copies of it.



from fly

[flyarm]

269. Officials told to 'back off' on Saudis before September 11

snip:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4293682,00.html

FBI claims Bin Laden inquiry was frustrated
Officials told to 'back off' on Saudis before September 11

Greg Palast and David Pallister
Guardian

Wednesday November 7, 2001


FBI and military intelligence officials in Washington say they were prevented for political reasons from carrying out full investigations into members of the Bin Laden family in the US before the terrorist attacks of September 11.

US intelligence agencies have come under criticism for their wholesale failure to predict the catastrophe at the World Trade Centre. But some are complaining that their hands were tied.

FBI documents shown on BBC Newsnight last night and obtained by the Guardian show that they had earlier sought to investigate two of Osama bin Laden's relatives in Washington and a Muslim organisation, the World Assembly of Muslim Youth (WAMY), with which they were linked.

The FBI file, marked Secret and coded 199, which means a case involving national security, records that Abdullah bin Laden, who lived in Washington, had originally had a file opened on him "because of his relationship with the World Assembly of Muslim Youth - a suspected terrorist organisation".

WAMY members deny they have been involved with terrorist activities, and WAMY has not been placed on the latest list of terrorist organisations whose assets are being frozen.

Abdullah, who lived with his brother Omar at the time in Falls Church, a town just outside Washington, was the US director of WAMY, whose offices were in a basement nearby.

But the FBI files were closed in 1996 apparently before any conclusions could be reached on either the Bin Laden brothers or the organisation itself. High-placed intelligence sources in Washington told the Guardian this week: "There were always constraints on investigating the Saudis".

They said the restrictions became worse after the Bush administration took over this year. The intelligence agencies had been told to "back off" from investigations involving other members of the Bin Laden family, the Saudi royals, and possible Saudi links to the acquisition of nuclear weapons by Pakistan.

"There were particular investigations that were effectively killed."

Only after the September 11 attacks was the stance of political and commercial closeness reversed towards the other members of the large Bin Laden clan, who have classed Osama bin Laden as their "black sheep".