Okay, I'm rethinking my disbelief of the 9/11 "conspiracy"

[gateley]

Despite all the 'proof' I'd heard before, the MAIN reason I didn't believe it was anything more than opinions is because I didn't think we were smart enough to pull something like that off. That's all, not a belief in my Country :patriot:, but rather a belief that the majority of people running it are dumb fucks. I assumed the story blamed, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld. As conniving as Cheney and Rumsfeld are, I still didn't think they'd be able to pull something of this magnitude off.

So today I FINALLY watched the first Zeitgeist film, and I realized that this wasn't just an American ploy to get Iraq's oil (I figured we could figure out a simpler way to do that), but part of the big picture, historically.

Cause for some re-thinking.

I do have a question about WHO recruited the guys who boarded the planes, stuff like that -- details, but I'm not a total disbeliever any more. Not a total believer, either because it's a big chunk to swallow, but as they pointed out, look at the Gulf of Tonkin, look at WWII -- the Americans are just bit players in the global picture.

I'm off to watch the 2nd 'installment' now. Swell. Another thing for me to become obsessed about. :eyes: :hi:

[Name removed]

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[greyl]

2. What do you mean by "the" 9/11 conspiracy?

There are hundreds of (incompatible)conspiracy theories about 9/11.

You refer to the hijackers being recruited by some unknown people. Have you watched the hijacker's pre-mission confession videos?

[gateley]

8. What do you want to do here? Convince me I shouldn't even

consider this as a possibility? Don't bother.

I'm not glomming on the specifics of the "proof" presented in this movie, rather that being reminded of the Gulf of Tonkin (and the lies and manipulation getting us into Iraq) make me realize it may not be as far-fetched as I believed.

Doesn't matter what I think anyway, either way, it's just my opinion and I never try to convince others they're wrong and I'm right.

[greyl]

9. Well, I had hoped you would answer two simple and polite questions.

You know, proceed as if you wanted to have an authentic discussion.

How did you want other DUers to react to your OP?

[gateley]

10. I didn't know there were hundreds of theories, so I can't answer question

number one.

As for question number two, I didn't state that the people were recruited, rather it was just a question that popped into my head -- who was behind those who flew the planes? Curiosity as to how that was/is explained.

I have not seen the film, never knew one existed because as I said, this is something I've pretty much discounted so I wouldn't have been aware of it or didn't pay attention. If you'd like to post a link, I'd be happy to view it. Other than that, I'm not interested enough to go looking for it.

I don't care how people react to my OP or if they "react" or respond at all. I was merely commenting in this forum that I'd seen something that made me give this possibility some thought. It's a message board and people tend to just share. What I didn't expect is to be grilled.

[OnTheOtherHand]

11. NObody expects the Spanish Inquisition! ;)

I really doubt it was intended as a grilling. Most of the people who post here have arguably thought waaaaaaaay too much about this issue.

I've never seen Zeitgeist, but from what I've read (pretty detailed), it does seem to have a lot of silly things. Just saying. Questioning the "conventional wisdom" can be a really powerful way to learn things -- and maintaining principled rational skepticism about things one doesn't know much about is honorable. On the other hand, some people seem to give themselves too much credit just for being unconventional, and their skepticism seems very selective. To the extent that you're interested in this, as long as you seek out a balanced diet, you should do fine.

[Name removed]

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[KDLarsen]

4. Some useful links

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/
and
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Main_Page

Just about everything brought up in Zeitgeist is covered by the first link, just about everything brought up in the 9/11 section is covered by the second link.

Remember, you're watching a movie with a very specific agenda. It will NOT present opposing points of view or evidence. None, zilch, nada.

[gateley]

6. I understand, and although the Christianity part was fraught with

errors, I still agree with the basic premise -- that it's just old pagan religions re-tooled and re-worked in order to have control over the masses.

So just because it has an agenda doesn't necessarily mean that SOME of the facts presented are valid.

The 9/11 bit rings more plausible to me now because of our history -- Can't say for sure about the World Wars, but I CAN say for sure that the Gulf of Tonkin lie was used. :shrug:

I'm aware that when people are presenting their beliefs/agenda, they can spin it to support their position (JFK, moon landing, etc) so I'm not easily swayed (thankfully).

PS -- thanks for the links! :hi:

[jakeXT]

5. An interesting movie on the hijackers

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www//seattletimes.nwsource.com/photobucket.com/albums/v611/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x307969


The question is, who is running the dumb fucks ?

It's always good to check the sources yourself, and early documentaries ask sometimes the wrong questions or are not very well researched.


Cheney and Co and COG
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2978244787099383010#

[gateley]

7. Yeah, I printed out the list of references and it's a TOME -- and just

because there are a lot doesn't mean they're accurate, so I'm not blindly accepting anything, just more open to considering the possibility. (Not that it matters what I do or do not believe.) I'll check out these links -- thanks.

[SpiralHawk]

12. Is the Z movie online?

Yes - answered my own question

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

[AntiFascist]

13. 9/11 WAS the result of a conspiracy, any way you look at it.....

and none of the 'doubters' in this forum can argue against that simple fact. The conclusions in your op are excellent and I wish more people from the so-called "truth movement" could see it this way. Viewing 9/11 as a purely "inside job" by the US government is really a somewhat self-centered way of viewing the world. GHW Bush had established questionable ties to the Saudis long before this happened and, by the way, he was a private citizen when it did happen.

[RegieRocker]

15. I personally don't know what group our groups did it for sure.

But sane minds want to know the truth instead of gulping down heaps of bull hockey from msm and the gov. Parts of it more than likely is truth not all of it however. That is the way to hide the truth. They are expert manipulators. Most fall for this technique. Quite effective.

[RegieRocker]

14. Careful you will become one of the enlightened few.

[Flatulo]

16. I'm not sure the Gulf of Tonkin analogy holds...

We goaded a people who had no beef with us to into engaging our navy (depending on which account you believe, we may or may not have been in territorial waters). Either way, the US was clearly itching for a fight with the Commies.

9/11, at least according to non-conspiratorial versions, was the culmination of a series of escalating attacks that started with the 1992 WTC bombing. al Qaeda, by their own propoganda, had declared war on *us* (ostensibly because we had stationed US troops on Muslim soil) sometime around 1998 (this is easy to verify).

So yeah, we were probably the bad guys in 1964, but I don't think many people would aver that we 'had it coming' regarding 9/11.

Just my opinion, of course. You seem reasonable and fully able to parse all this and come to your own conclusions.

[defendandprotect]

17. Susan Lindauer, CIA asset, whistleblower -- has a lot of info on it --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x321024#321175