Hi! My first time in the Dungeon! Just want to let you all know

[gateley]

that on 9/11 Russ Baker (an investigative journalist who wrote Family of Secrets about the Bush family) will be the guest on Coast to Coast AM. Good news, for those of you who listen, is that George Noory WON'T be hosting.

www.coasttocoastam.com for affiliates in your area.

I'm undecided about 9/11 (haven't really delved) so have no agenda passing this along, nor do I have any idea w/Baker's take on it is. I did hear him on the Bush family and I was impressed.

:hi:

From the site:

Award-winning investigative reporter with a track record for making sense of complex and little understood matters, Russ Baker, joins guest host John B. Wells (email) to discuss why so many unanswered questions linger about what exactly happened ten years ago on September 11th.

From Russ Baker's site:

Russ Baker is an
award-winning investigative reporter and founder of WhoWhatWhy.com. He has written for the New Yorker, Vanity Fair, the Nation, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Village Voice and Esquire.

www.russbaker.com

[LARED]

1. Welcome to the dungeon nt

[gateley]

11. Thanks, but really just dropped by to deliver this PSA in case

any of you might be interested. I understand that this is a topic of great interest to many, but as I said I don't delve because ultimately, I don't believe anything will come of it (a la Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld War Crimes) and there are other things I can raise my blood pressure over that MIGHT get some resolution.

:hi:

[OnTheOtherHand]

2. I know Baker took some fire for debunking bad election fraud arguments

So at least I can say that he isn't the sort of "investigative journalist" who never heard (or at least never wrote about) a conspiracy theory he didn't like. I'd be interested to learn what is on his list of unanswered questions.

[gateley]

10. I think he nailed it in Family of Secrets, but that could just

be because I want to believe it's all true!

[OnTheOtherHand]

13. I haven't read Family of Secrets

On good days, I try to avoid expressing opinions on subjects I know absolutely nothing about. ;)

I like your style. Come back anytime.

[NYC_SKP]

3. gateley!

In da dungeon!

Who knew?!

:hi:

I'm like you, open minded but skeptical, and wouldn't put it past the Evil Ones to pull this thing off (mihop).

I spend five years getting a Bachelor of Architecture degree, in New York City, and five years of structures classes.

I was shocked at the towers' collapse, and more disturbed by building 7.

I guess we'll never know what went down, but glad there's a forum to discuss it!

~~~~~~~~

[William Seger]

4. What do you think

... should have stopped the buildings from collapsing?

[NYC_SKP]

5. For one thing, I'd have expected a far less symmetrical collapse at 7...

It's not unreasonable to think that the towers themselves, not nearly as overbuilt as, say, the Empire State building, could have had structural member sufficiently weakened by heat to have lead to failure.

The odds, however, of BOTH towers being hit and heated sufficiently to have collapsed in an identical way when there are so few similar examples of collapse due to fire, are very very slim.

"patriot:

[LARED]

6. You dodged the question, nt

[NYC_SKP]

7. OK, I think steel and the laws of physics should have prevented collapse.

But just so you know, it's not my dream to spend today on the matter.

Have a good one!

:hi:

[LARED]

8. Well that's good to know

I think the earth will contiune to rotate around the sun and not crash into Mars or Venus due to the laws of physics.

Light will contiune to shine and water will still be wet.

[William Seger]

9. After implying that your disbelief in fire-induced collapse....

... is derived from 5 years of engineering training, I certainly expected something more technically substantial. I'd also expect you to be more familiar with the technical "official story" -- i.e. why "steel and the laws of physics" EXPLAIN the collapses -- before venturing an opinion. So, personal incredulity is all you got?

[defendandprotect]

16. The WTC towers were built with CORE STEEL framing in center of the buildings ....

often not mentioned --

Not only is there NO example of a steel frame building ever having been brought down

by fire --

but the CORES of these buildings making it hugely impossible without a means of

systemic attack on the steel cores -- and the framing -- such as is done in demolition.


And such as is described by Susan Lindauer/CIA asset in her video/book --

HERE the LINK to her video --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x321024



Seems the CIA had prior knowledge of the bomb which was expected to be "thermonuclear" --

and CIA was concerned about spread of radiation in NY --

"a Thermite bomb with potential Sulfur which creates moltel steel" --

And, like others, Lindauer specifically states that it was a "MILITRY GRADE WEAPON--

A "SPECIAL US MILITARY GRADE WEAPON" -- "NOT ANYTHING THAT COULD BE PRODUCED OTHER

BY THE MILITARY" --





Lindauer is another source for unknown workmen in the building -- we have many reports

on that, both long term and in the "power down" on the weekend before 9/11 --

And based on information from another source to her -- and think she said from video @ WTC--

that from August 23rd to September 3rd -- coming in at 3am -- strange men in a couple of vans --

similarto the make/model/color of those used by the janitorial services --leaving at 5 am.

However, CIA "tracked" the actual janitorial service people to be sure it wasn't them.

These men showed up for 10 or 11 days and never seen again--?




Lindauer also makes clear that whatever Atta's role in 9/11, he was a CIA asset -- !!

"ATTA WAS TRAINED BY US GOVERNMENT"

And tht "that those hijackers ID's were CIA assets -- they worked for US Government" --

And she adds that this has been confirmed --

"They've admitted that Atta was a CIA asset" --

"Verified" -- "that Atta had received military training"


Lindauer isn't aware of what they thought or were told they were doing -- whether they

thought they were participating in a training exercise -- but she adds the the "hijackers

got a lot of help. She does question whether the events -- i.e., hijacking of planes and

running them into buildings happened as told by government -- but that these CIA assets

were trained and available.


Lindauer also makes clear to us the horrors of the sanctions on Iraq* and how willing and

cooperative Saddam Hussein/Iraq government had been in putting EVERYTHING on the table --

from taking in 1 million autos a year -- to many other advantages for our capitalists from

medicine, drugs, to communications, on and on -- and think what that would have meant for

our economy!!


BUT LINDAUER DOES MAKE CLEAR THAT THERE WAS ONE LOSER IF THE SANCTIONS HAD BEEN LIFTED BY

THE MEANS OF THESE SETTLEMENTS --

AND THAT WAS THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX !!!

************************************************


Lindauer also mentions that the the "no fly zone" over Iraq was beginning to be challenged

by various nations which for HUMANE REASONS were flying in food/aid --

"CIA WAS FURIOUS AT THIS -- AND WANTED TO TAKE BACK THEIR POWER" --

******************************************************************



Lindauer also makes clear what many of us immediately recognized in the non-response by

our government/US Military --

i.e., "that NORAD WAS ON HIGH ALERT -- AND BROKE ALL OF THEIR PROTOCOL --

The "hijackers" also allegedly roamed over many of our military bases and still no planes

were sent up to intercept in almost two hours of their wandering the skies!!



Lindauer is also an authority on Libya -- and she relates that it costs $1 to produce a

barrel of oil in Libya --

but that Libya also has GOLD --

143 tons of gold

Lindauer, btw, identifies herself as "anti-rebel" -- but also informs us that ...

'ISRAEL PROMISED AID/FINANCING FOR THE REBELS -- WITH THE AGREEMENT THEY WOULD GET

A MILITARY BASE IN LIBYA -- SPECIFICALLY IN HE GREEN MOUNTAINS -- WHERE THERE IS GOLD.



Lindauer had alerted various DC officials of the pre-knowledge the CIA had of the 9/11

attacks -- and evidently they were sufficiently threatened by her actions as to try for

five years -- including one year in prison -- to lock her up indefinitely and to either

create a situation where she seemed incompetent -- or to CREATE a situation by forcing

psychiatric drugs on her which would have been the equal of a lobotomy!


Her book is "Extreme Prejudice" and it is self-published because of intimidation of

publishers and her desire to not have her book redacted.

[gateley]

12. Hiya NYC-SKP!

I agree there probably won't be a resolution and even if there is, I'm not sure -- actually I'm pretty sure -- nothing would come of it if it was found it was intentional. So I'll just keep out of it and save my sanity and engage in fights elsewhere on DU. :7

I admit the evidence I've heard that suggests a conspiracy is intriguing and makes sense to my un-professional mind. But so did many arguments 'proving' the Moon Landing was bogus, so :shrug:.

We'll never know for sure, just like with Kennedy's assassination. And even if Kennedy were to appear and give us the real deal, there would still be doubt and suspicion.

Hope all is well! :hi:

[NYC_SKP]

14. All's well here!

Didja see what I got myself into for having an opinion?!

:rofl:

I just wanted to say hi to ya, and got caught up.

I'm outta here!

:hi:

[gateley]

17. Ha! You can handle it! nt

[defendandprotect]

15. Thanks for the info -- during IRENE ....

we lost electricity so I spent a bit of time trying to tune in -- by battery/radio --

to Coast to Coast -- and when I was able to hear it, I was often disappointed --

especially with George Noory -- does FOX own Coast to Coast?

Will keep in mind for tomorrow --




www.coasttocoastam.com for affiliates in your area.

[gateley]

18. God, you'd think sometimes Fox DID own it. I'm often

surprised when I hear left-leaning guests.

Noory sucks (there are web sites devoted to that!). The Saturday night guy, Ian Punnett, is good. There IS a lot of good info to be had as they can pull in some impressive names because they have millions of listeners.

As I said, I think Baker did a good job on Family of Secrets, so I'm looking forward to hearing him on this.

If you tune in, hope you you fine it worthwhile -- or at least interesting. :7 :hi:

[defendandprotect]

19. OK, thanks, but has to be via intenert cause impossible to hear anything via

regular radio!! Static and station keeps jumping --

[gateley]

20. I was actually thinking after I posted this, that if you have a

conviction one way or the other, if Russ Baker takes the opposite view, it might just be too aggravating to listen to! Like us listening to RW callers on radio shows. Head-exploding!

But, if you want to chance it, I DO think you can listen live online.

Hope your service is back to normal soon!!

[defendandprotect]

21. Presume you have read the book ....

I do recall browsing it in book stores -- I'm a fast reader --

but nothing stuck with me -- and will look at it again next time I'm in Barnes & Noble --

if they continue to exist!


as well as the one by Douglass -- "the unspeakable" -- re JFK assassination --

but I've recently read he makes a conclusion which I disagree with, so that kind of

taints anything else I might read -- don't quite trust him.



and I never bothered with Hartmann's book on JFK assassination -- because unbelievably he

suggests that the Mafia did it -- beyond all reason!!

Like Hartmann but again he doesn't have my total trust for one reason or another -- and

noticed he gave no challenge to 9/11 the other day -- which surprised me because that seems

so blatantly obvious, but evidently he's not going for it.



but have read a lot of books on that assassination --

Think the very best are High Treason I and II -- Livingstone

He wrote at least one more on the assassination --


and Jim Marrs "Crossfire" --

Of course Jim Garrison's books -- and the Stone movie LBJ --


There was a movie made almost immediately -- in early 70's called "Executive Action" which

used to play on TV occasionally -- Burt Lancaster and Robt. Ryan --

Many people knew that night the motives and the involvements in the coup --

but again, like 9/11, couldn't have been carried out without having the presidency to control

challenges and keep cover up going.


They've had control since then -- very minor power shifts -- but no real occasion to rectify

any of this.

[gateley]

24. You already know the stuff in Bush Family Secrets, but

it's nice to see it documented and hopefully open a few new eyes.

The problem I have with the Kennedy assassination is that I've heard so many theories that make sense, that at the end I just throw up my hands and figure we'll never know for SURE, and even if we did there's nothing that would be done now. I was pretty impressed listening to E Howard Hunt's son speak about it, and listening to the "deathbed" tape of Hunt was convincing. :shrug:

[defendandprotect]

25. We have only to look around at those now in power ---

Oil industry always was the equivalent of Mafia -

Families and corporations involved in JFK assassination were also the force being

the coup threat against FDR revealed by Brig. Gen. Smedley Darlington Butler -- who could

possibly forget that name!!

And they are the families and corporations still controll our corporate-media today.

Certainly Mafia played a role, but they were not the force behind it --

Without having the presidency to protect them -- i.e., LBJ -- it couldn't have been done.

Too many are unaware of the criminal nature of LBJ -- you might suggest he engaged in a

very benign cover up -- MEDICARE!!

[Politicalboi]

22. I just watched something on the History channel

It was about phone calls from loved ones trapped in the towers. Most tell their loved ones that they are trapped and there are a lot of walls down and debris. But not one call said anything about plane debris. They didn't even know what it was that caused the fire. I heard more about explosives than plane debris. Plane engines are 9 feet tall, and made of Titanium. There should have been some plane debris somewhere. Survivors say nothing about plane debris. I find it a bit odd.
Granted there is a lot of odd in 9/11. No seats anywhere, no talk of plane debris from rescuers. I guess they just vanished after they accomplished their mission. Oh and there was no talk about WTC 7, and I think they edited the collapse of the first tower to eliminate a lot of the squibs. Just like they edited Ghouliani saying the towers are going to collapse.

Have any of the victims tried to sue Larry Silverstein? It was a fact that Asbestos was in that building and the cloud had a shit load in it. He got a lot of money for the "terrorist" attack.

Edited: I know some plane debris was later found in the wreckage, but nothing of substance. The people who did this planned it somewhat well. They have managed to convince a population of people for 10 years that fires can melt a steel and concrete building, and cause them to fall at 10 stories a second without resistance. And that over 800 seats can vanish without a trace.

[OnTheOtherHand]

23. umm

The majority of people who survived the initial impacts wouldn't be in a position to identify plane debris.

Given the variety of eyewitness, video, and forensic evidence that planes did hit the towers, I find it pretty strange that you're hung up on the failure of cell phone calls -- more specifically, the calls used in a particular History Channel documentary -- to confirm it.

When you say that no plane wreckage "of substance" was found "in the debris," I suppose that might be right if you define your terms carefully enough -- but some very substantial plane wreckage was found at Ground Zero.

"Oh and there was no talk about WTC 7..." -- funny you should say that, since one of the Truth Movement complaints has been that the BBC announced the collapse of WTC 7 before it even collapsed.

"...I think they edited the collapse of the first tower to eliminate a lot of the squibs." :eyes: Well, there you go. If the History Channel had aired cell phone calls about plane debris in the towers, you would presumably think that "they" faked those, too, along with the evidence of wreckage. So there really isn't much point in discussing evidence at all, is there?

Just a bit of mopping up: I don't see anyone saying that fires melted the towers, nor did they have to; they only had to weaken some of the columns. I also don't see anyone saying that the towers fell without resistance, only that the resistance was small compared with the gravitational acceleration -- and there are detailed engineering explanations of why. If you want to rebut something, shouldn't you know what you're rebutting?

[defendandprotect]

26. Interesting observations ---

Often after a myth takes hold, the public fails to notice things like that --

No question in my mind but that it was an "Inside Job" -- but the goal of the day was

to bring down the WTC towers which were going to have to be dismantled -- piece by piece --

using scaffolding -- due to asbestos. The buildings had other problems -- they weren't

desirable floor space and due to their design exceedingly expensive to heat and cool.

Iow, "White Elephants" --

therefore, I don't think they would have really had time to begin fooling around with

simultaneously hijacking four commercial jet airliners -- and organizing the pilots, etal --

and/or depending upon passengers to not retake the planes!

Rather, I agree with those who suggest there was probably ONE PLANE -- which was flown

around and near and over the WTC towers that morning and FILMED as the explosives went off

inside the building. Same with Pentagon -- witnesses see a PLANE flying over the Pentagon

and presume as the explosion goes off there that the PLANE actually hit the Pentagon.

But not necessarily!


The amazing thing is that so many here will talk about our corporate-media as untrustworthy

but when it comes to 9/11 -- hey, that same corporate-media is highly believable somehow!!



In the Susan Lindauer video she not only makes clear that the CIA knew that this was going

to happen in the next few weeks, but that it was going to be a Thermonuclear device -- and

they feared radiation over NY.



:hi: