What do we know & how do we know it ?

[moof]

moof is not a novice at this 9/11 deal and is convinced that LIHOP
in some form is the explanation for 9/11 with the stated goals of PNAC as the justification.

Still it is getting more & more annoying to hear people say things that have no evidence what so ever to back them up.

Being reclusive & skeptical may be part of the problem but for example
has there been any evidence varified or even seen by an independent source that shows any of the following ?

1. There were 19 " hi jackers "

Has someone listened to cell phone tapes or gone over all the statements from people that " Said " they got phone calls from people on the planes to come to this 19 hijackers figure ?

2. The Majority of the " Hi jackers " were Saudis "

Again since some of the people that were said to have been Hijackers have turned up alive why is any of the rest of the info about these hijackers given any play at all ? Not doubting the jets were hijacked but it seems unlikely that so much information could have been gathered on them from what little paper trails were left from buying tickets and the second & third hand accounts of people's cell phone calls from the plane.

So has this info been talked about somewhere that has some credibility
or are people that should know better simply using some of the goverments talking points because otherwise the masses have no idea what is being discussed ?

[izzie]

1. Well we are back to not knowing because we can not trust gov

I at first belived but stopped. How do we know their were 19 and most were Saudi? We only know what the gov wish and it seems to be what will wish us to go to war where they like and build more arms.

[RH]

2. turned up alive?

"some of the people that were said to have been Hijackers have turned up alive" is ridiculously ignorant.

The situation briefly stated is that:

Some people with similar identities did turn up but not one of them made any claim at all to have been in the USA on 9/11 nor during months before 9/11. Nor was any one of them ever known to have purchased a ticket or reservation for any of the four flights hijacked.

The suspected hijackers apparently with stolen identities, and their alleged accomplices, were in the USA. The fact is confirmed by a paper trail and many independent witnesses who came into contact with them. They purchased tickets and reservations for the four flights. They have not been seen or heard from since. The remains of two of the bodies found in New York debris were matched to samples from identified as those of two of the suspects.

[moof]

6. ridiculously ignorant ?

If an ABC news correspondent can go and talk to the person that has the same name, address & who looks exactly like the picture of one of the people that government claims to have been one of the hijackers, Then yes that would mean that one of the people that were said to have been Hijackers by the government had turned up alive. Off hand it looks like this person's idenity was stolden by one of the suspect hijackers.

More to the point, since it appears that some of the suspects used stolden idenities then where is the link to the true idenities of these people?

Even more to the point why do people keep pounding on the point that the majority of the suspected hijackers were saudis when it seems the real talking point here should be that reguardless of what nationality they were anyone wanting to get into this country from the mideast on forged papers would obviously use Saudi nationality for their papers since up till 9/11, anyone with a Saudi passport was viewed as having connections with the Saudi family & therefore given a free pass thru customs.

So is there info to support the contention that 15 of the hijackers were saudis?

[RH]

10. More to the point,

The original Press releases from the FBI referred to several as a "Possible Saudi national", "Possible resident of ...." etc.

Strangely enough when people use false identities the intention tends to be to mask their real identities. The circumstances were complicated.

The tracks of some the suspects are well traced. A friend of mine has a friend in in Hamburg who knew Mohammed Atta, a nice enough, ordinary enough guy, so they'd thought.

Others seemed to have turned up in the USA more mysteriously, a few months before 9/11, out of the blue, and given that some of their original identities are unknown or uncertain, it follows that their original nationalities would also be uncertain. The previous connections between the various groups of hijackers are also somewhat conjectural. You may have a point to say that too much has been made of the Saudi Arabian connection but what then would you point to instead?

I'd be more concerned with their behaviour.

[Abe Linkman]

3. Please; elaborate, support, and explain.

"Not doubting the jets were hijacked"

What makes you so certain? Use your own stated standards when you explain, please.

[moof]

4. abe are you serious ?

or do you not think moof is ?

Maybe we just have a bit of a misunderstanding but that the jets were hijacked seems to be the only independently widely varified fact not in dispute. Using the following definition and assuming that most resonable people would not have expected the destination of the jets to be WTC 1 & 2 the pentagon and a field in Pittsburg.

Definition: 1. seizure of a vehicle in transit either to rob it or divert it to an alternate destination

So does anyone have a link to information detailing the source of the
information that leads to the conclusion about the number & nationality of the "hijackers".

[Abe Linkman]

5. Of course, I'm serious.

There's no clear and convincing evidence that any of the flights were hijacked...unless you are using a very, very broad definition of "hijackers". I assume you believe the "hijackers" you are referring to were ME men sent by OBL to do what the Official Story Conspiracy theorists say. What's the evidence for that?

[moof]

7. The flights were hijacked, as for who hijacked them

that seems to be only at the conjecture stage at this point unless as was the orginal intent of this thread to see if there was some consensus as to what the most likely possibilities were two years later.

So again what do we know other than the four flights were hijacked

by somebody and on the specific point of 15 of the people that the FBI claims to be the suspected hijackers is there solid independent evidence that these 15 are indeed Saudis.

[Abe Linkman]

8. Sorry, can't accept your unproven premise

There is a theory that the planes were hijacked (again, you neglected to define what you mean by "hijack"); but it is only one of several theories.

In my opinion, it's a very weak theory, made more so by the absence of evidence to support your basic premise.

[LARED]

9. Absence of Evidence?

Hijack: Noun

Seizure of a vehicle in transit either to rob it or divert it to an alternate destination.

...........

We know the planes left the airports. We know they were diverted to an alternate destination. Those final destinations were the WTC, the Pentagon, and a field in Penn. This evidence has been well established.

A few people like yourself have a conspiracy theory that the planes were not hijacked by the people who did it, but they were indeed hijacked by someone.

[Abe Linkman]

11. Presence of Official Conspiracy Theories

Thanks, we all how hard you Official Story Conspiracy Theorists work to convince the public that Osama bin Laden directed an attack against the U.S. on 9-11. Wait, are you saying you aren't one of spinners? Are you saying you're just one of the Official Fact-Free Story Conspiracy Theory believers?

[LARED]

12. Official Conspiracy Theories?????

Huh?

One thing I have noticed is the penchant for the conspiracy crowd to change subject as required.

So do you agree the planes were hijacked?

[ramblin_dave]

13. The planes were hijacked

but not necessarily by the 19 persons identified by the FBI. Some of these identities could be real, some could be stolen. 15 of the 19 identities are said to be Saudis. For discussion purposes the idea that 15 of the hijackers are Saudis is part of the "official conspiracy theory". But of course, if any of the 15 Saudi identities are stolen, then the idea that most of the hijackers were Saudis is in question.

None of this means that the official conspiracy theory isn't more fundamentally flawed than just not getting all the identities right.

The alleged hijackers, whoever they really were, could have been just patsies designed to focus blame for the attacks on a particular group. They may have been covertly used by others who then would be the true architects of the attacks.

[Abe Linkman]

14. Couldn't have said it better, or I would have.

Thanks ramblin_dave,

I couldn't even have said it as well!