A Plane or a Missile?

[demodewd]

It was a plane but it was also a missile. Missiles are flying bombs. Whether the flying engine is behind the bomb or around the bomb, what's the difference ?

Here we try to support that the plane that crash in the Pentagon was a plane bomb, thus it was not flight AA77. Flight AA77 had its transponder turned off. For 30 minutes it was not clear where it was (see UnansweredQuestions.org). We do not discuss the fate of AA77, instead we focus on the Pentagon evidences. The plane bomb was probably an airliner tarted up as an American Airlines airliner. It was modified as a missile, it was remotely and/or automatically controlled. There were bombs on board, mostly bombs with a directed explosion (shaped charges) These bombs pierced the wall, they were detonated one after another before the contact with the Pentagon and possibly after, inside the building. Here are others observers thinking about the same : Cheryl Seal : "The plane exploded and was essentially vaporized the split second before actual impact with the wall", Leonard Spencer about flight 11 : "It was a custom-built military plane carrying three missiles". More... http://perso.wanadoo.fr/ericbart/

[crispy]

1. ............

I'd say it was a plane and a missile, separately though. Missile hit, then plane into the hole created by missile.

I'll debate anyone on this.

[Abe Linkman]

2. Agreed; but Be Prepared for this -

"What proof and what evidence do you have to support such a ridiculous claim that goes against what the Government told you happened?"

"If that kind of cockamameee conspiracy theory were true, millions (okay, thousands-or too many people, whatever) would have to keep their mouths shut, and how do you keep them from talking about it and spilling the beans...unless you threaten them that if they do, action will be taken that will astound you and possible even result in the cessation of your breathing apparatus."

"What would the Government possibly have to gain by lying to its own citizens? They've never lied before about something like this."

The above is just for starters. There will be plenty more, never fear.

[DulceDecorum]

3. John Kaminski says:

http://www.rense.com/general36/hoax.htm

[LARED]

4. I think this has been answered a number of times already

Flight AA77 had its transponder turned off. For 30 minutes it was not clear where it was

I could be mistaken, but turning the transponders off only means some information is unavailable to the ATC's. The plane is still visible on radar.

[Abe Linkman]

5. Then why say you could be mistaken?

If it's been answered a "number of times", why do you hedge?

[LARED]

6. Because I'm going by memory

A fleeting thing at times. Rather than spend the time researching this again, I posted what I think I correct information but there is a small doubt on my part because I did not confirm it first. Is there a problem with that?


Also, am I right?

[crispy]

7. Re: "Because I'm going by memory"

Yes, you are correct that a transponder being off does not make the plane invisible to radar.

I have not verified this myself, but I hear that the "official" reason F77 disappeared (if indeed it did) was because people in Ohio did not have the conventional radar working. I find that a pretty weak explanation myself.

[LARED]

9. Radar

This witness page
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/ericbart/witness.html#DeChiaroSteve1 indicates the plane was on radar as it entered DC.

Interestingly enough this is the same web that tell us the plane was missing for 30 minutes. Go figure :)


At the Dulles tower, O'Brien saw the TV pictures from New York and headed back to her post to help other planes quickly land. "We started moving the planes as quickly as we could," she says. "Then I noticed the aircraft. It was an unidentified plane to the southwest of Dulles, moving at a very high rate of speed … I had literally a blip and nothing more." O'Brien asked the controller sitting next to her, Tom Howell, if he saw it too. "I said, 'Oh my God, it looks like he's headed to the White House,'" recalls Howell. "I was yelling … 'We've got a target headed right for the White House!'" At a speed of about 500 miles an hour, the plane was headed straight for what is known as P-56, protected air space 56, which covers the White House and the Capitol. "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane," says O'Brien. "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe." The plane was between 12 and 14 miles away, says O'Brien, "and it was just a countdown. Ten miles west. Nine miles west … Our supervisor picked up our line to the White House and started relaying to them the information, we have an unidentified very fast-moving aircraft inbound toward your vicinity, 8 miles west."

[ramblin_dave]

10. The transponder went off right after the plane

turned around and headed east and then the plane was seen on radar as it approached DC. I believe that it is during the return flight east that there was no reported track by radar and hence the claim it was missing for 30 minutes. Some of the maps showing the path have a dashed line for the return leg.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/flight77.html

I wonder if the "investigation" will clarify any of this?

[demodewd]

12. pilots response(or lack of it)

As we all know,none of the pilots relayed the "hijacked" code via transponder before they were turned off. If the hijackers were in the midst of intimidating the passengers ,slashing throats, and forcing open cockpit doors the pilots would have taken the fiveseconds to send the hijacked code.Why didn't they?

[Abe Linkman]

13. Very good question - maybe Lared knows why.

n/t

[RH]

15. As we all know?

Know because of what?

Are all the transponder squawk codes continually recorded in real time?

Or could a 'hijack' code have been transmitted for a while without being noticed?

[crispy]

14. Right.

So the problem is this: F77 disappeared over Ohio. A fast-moving plane was picked up on radar just outside Washington; judging by the way it manuevered the Dulles ATCs thought it was a military plane. This is most intriguing, as it opens the possibility that the plane was not F77.

[demodewd]

11. re:transponder

With the plane's transponder turned off the plane(a plane) is still identifiable by its radar blip but without transponder signals one cannot discern its altitude.

[demodewd]

8. ericbart continued

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/ericbart/"Few people know about bombs. Pierre-Henri Bunel is a french artillery army officer. During the 1991 Gulf war, the allies used his expertise to help evaluate the damages caused by missiles. He wrote a chapter on bombs and missiles in Le Pentagate.

When an explosive is ignited it decomposes itself in heat, light and huge volume of gaseous compounds. Because this expansion is very rapid, the expanding gasses displace large volumes of air creating a shockwave and a forceful gust of wind : a blast.

For 'high explosives', the shockwave occurs at supersonic speed, forcing the water steam in the air to condense instantly, thus creating a sudden white cloud or white flash. This colour may change to light yellow or light orange but the flash is always sudden and brief. The fireball follows later at a slower speed.
Jet fuel cannot burn without large quantities of air. It only explodes when carefully mixed with air. Otherwise it just burns in dark orange flames like in the WTC 9/11 attacks.

Normal explosives disperse their gaseous compounds in all directions. Shaped-charge explosives (1 2) concentrate their gases in a single direction, making them more powerful. Metal may be added to the explosive charge to increase its 'cutting power'. Shaped charges are used for piercing rocks in the oil-drilling industry or for piercing tanks and bunkers in the army. High explosives create huge heat and huge forces. Shaped charges are even more destructive.

Pierre-Henri Bunel thinks that the Pentagon attack was made with an anti-bunker missile. An anti-bunker missile contains both a shapped charge and a bomb. It first used the shaped-charge to pierce the wall and then dropped a bomb inside the bunker.

Shaped charge explosion




Missile

Pierre-Henri Bunel explains that a missile is programmed for a precise trajectory. Once it arrives near its target, it slows down and tilts its wings to slide laterally and vertically on its exact final fly path. When on its exact trajectory, it hit full gas to get the maximum speed power for the impact.

"He tilted his wings, this way and in this way (Ryan mimics) that happened concurrently with the engines going down. And then straighten up in sort of suddenly and hit full gas. (Ryan mimics)" Ryan James (Video available)
"It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance" Afework Hagos
"The jet accelerated in the final few hundred yards" William Middleton Sr





White flash

Remember that the white flash is like a sudden white cloud preceding a slower fireball. It's water steam condensed by the shockwave. The colour of this sudden flash may vary, white, light yellow or light orange. As the shockwave is like a sound wave, it does not displace matter, it's a travelling high pressure that can get through air, through matter, through walls. Thus a white flash can occur behind a standing wall.

"I saw the flash and subsequent fireball" Terry Morin
There was a silvery flash, an explosion, and... " James S Robbins
The fireball was coming like a wind-cloud of smoke trailing it" Victor Correa. The "smoke " is the white flash (i.e. water steam) that appeared before the fireball. This gave the strange impression that "smoke" appeared before the fire. See this video
"the room filled with this real bright light, just like everything was encompassed within this bright light" Michael Beans. The flash got through the walls.

White flash




Shaped charges

Pierre-Henri Bunel explains that the punched out hole was more likely caused by a shaped charge jet stream. Hot plasma jet streams are designed to pierce concrete, they go far inside the building and end up in winds, smokes and heat.

Because it was supposedly found a nose gear there, it was considered as a proof that the plane's nose made this hole. It is more likely that this gear wheel rim rolled there, pushed or drawn by the above jet streams.

In any case the wheel rim did not make such a big hole. Where are the plane parts that broke this wall ? These parts should be visible in the A-E drive and even damage the next wal : the B ring wall.

Nope. The next wall is intact. No damage. Only some smoke spot waiting to be washed. Finally, it seems that no solid matter made this hole. It was made by the forceful pressure of hot gases and smokes. This is much more consistent with shaped charge explosions.




The shaped charges were ignited before the nose touched the wall. That's why some witnesses reported signs of an early impact, before the plane touched the wall :

"It seemed like it made impact just before the wedge" Joe Harrington
"I heard a sonic boom and then the impact" Joel Sucherman
Other witnesses understood that the plane hit the ground before the wall :

"It didn't appear to crash into the building, most of the energy was dissipated in hitting the ground, I saw the nose break up, I saw the wings fly forward" Donald "Tim" Timmerman
"The fuselage hit the ground and blew up" Mary Ann Owens
"The nose of the plane curled upwards and crumpled before exploding into a massive fireball" Vin Narayan

But there was no mark of the plane on the ground. Other witnesses reported an impact on the building :

"The large aircraft struck the outermost corridor (E-ring) of the five-ring building at ground level (the second floor)" Aviationnow
"The aircraft went in between the second and third floors." Lincoln Leibner
Why did some witnesses thought that the plane hit the ground before the wall ? I see two reasons. First, the explosion of the charges created white flashes around the fuselage that seemed an early contact with the ground. Second, shaped charges in a plane have a recoil effect like powder in guns. Their explosions should have push back the fuselage and slow it down, giving the impression that it hit something. It could also make the wings detached and fly forward because, unlike the fuselage, they were not slowed down, "I saw the wings fly forward".


The Penny Elgas statement : "At the point where the fuselage hit the wall, it seemed to simply melt into the building. I saw a smoke ring surround the fuselage as it made contact with the wall. It appeared as a smoke ring that encircled the fuselage at the point of contact and it seemed to be several feet thick. I later realized that it was probably the rubble of churning bits of the plane and concrete. The churning smoke ring started at the top of the fuselage and simultaneously wrapped down both the right and left sides of the fuselage to the underside, where the coiling rings crossed over each other and then coiled back up to the top. Then it started over again -- only this next time, I also saw fire, glowing fire in the smoke ring."

The analysis of this report is complex. However I'll try here.


First I believe Penny Elgas. Under adrenaline things go definetly slower. The report she gave is so unexpected that I don't think she made it up. It's just a pure factual report.

The interpretation she gave is false. : "the rubble of churning bits of the plane and concrete". The smoke moves are too perfect.

My speculation : The "churning smoke" is the white flash of inside charges. Penny Elgas saw the white flashes of these charges exploding in two overlapped and opposite helices.


There was not a single large shaped charge in the plane. I did not see any large shaped charge on the web. The best anti-bunker weapon (BLU-113) is only 1.2 foot large (diameter). Instead, there were many shaped charges (one feet diameter) inside the plane. Roughly, a one foot diameter will make a one foot hole. These charges were arranged in circle inside the fuselage and along the fuselage. Thus it was possible to make a large hit on the wall with small shaped charges. These charges were not fired all at the same time (probably to be more silent or for having a "hammering" effect on concrete). So what is the best sequence for igniting all theses charges ?

Maybe things are simpler then I first thought. All the plane (fuselage and wings) is laid on a rigid structure. This means that the bottom of the fuselage is strong and the top is fragile. So, when a charge explode near the bottom of the fuselage, it destroys the stiffness of it.

I think that the charges where put in two overlapped and opposite helices (clockwise and counter clockwise). The explosion started at the top front of the fuselage, continued downward and backward on each side, joined at the bottom and continued upward and backward, and so on ..., as Penny saw.

When explosions occure at the bottom, the plane fuselage stiffness is damaged. Thus, next charges to explode are less strongly tied to the fuselage. The further they are from the bottom, the more difficult it is to tie them strongly to the fuselage. Thus, next charges have to be attached close to the bottom. That's why I think it continued upward (and backward) on each side of the fuselage, because next charges can't be mechanically attached far form the bottom.

"Then it started over again -- only this next time, I also saw fire, glowing fire in the smoke ring." The glowing fire is the fireball itself that comes after the white flash.



Shaped charges in the NYC Flight 11

There was a white flash just before flight 11 crashed in the north WTC tower. See this "Incredible 9-11 Evidence We've All been Overlooking". See this flash just before the plane crash. You may even check it on your own DVD player.

This flash is too big to be sparks, see the real small sparks in the flight 175 crash (picture, shockwave from thewebfairy). It's not a video recorder aberration, to few chances. Maybe it's a sun reflection amplified by an optical aberration but I think it will be difficult to find the mirror. On this morning, the sun was low above the horizon in the left.


Maybe this plane was not flight 11. Albeit it seems very difficult to exchange flight 11 with a plane bomb, some authors argue this was possible (Plissken, Dewdney).

This flash could well be the same shaped charges described above and summed up by the Pentagon witness Penny Elgas : "I saw a smoke ring surround the fuselage as it made contact with the wall."