Flight 93 - Where's the plane?

[DoYouEverWonder]

Remember that commercial with the lady who kept asking "Where's the beef? That's what I feel like when I look at pictures of the 'crash' sight in Shanksville, PA.


This seems to be one of the greatest magic tricks of all time. Millions of people have been deluded to believe that Flight 93 crashed here.



However, it is plain to see THERE IS NO PLANE!

Look again.



THERE IS NO PLANE!


So where did the plane go?

Look at this map:




The flight path is from the North. Then there is the crash sight. Then the engine is a good distance ahead of the crash site. That's odd?

Now look to the southeast. INDIAN LAKE.

How the heck did the debris, lot's of debris, end up in Indian Lake, if Flight 93 crashed to the northwest of the lake? The debris field should be behind the plane, NOT EIGHT MILES AWAY IN FRONT OF IT.

'Crash debris found 8 miles away '

Investigators also descended on nearby Indian Lake. The resort community 2 1/2 miles from the crash also became part of the official search area after small pieces of crash debris were recovered from the 750-acre lake.

John Fleegle, an Indian Lake Marina employee, said FBI agents were skeptical of his reports about debris in the lake until they traveled to the lake shore Wednesday afternoon.

<snip>

"All of a sudden the lights flickered and we joked that maybe they were coming for us. Then we heard engines screaming close overhead. The building shook. We ran out, heard the explosion and saw a fireball mushroom," said Fleegle, pointing to a clearing on a ridge at the far end of the lake.

Delasko, who ran outside moments later, said she thought someone had blown up a boat on the lake. "It just looked like confetti raining down all over the air above the lake," she said.

http://www.flight93crash.com/MyPittsburghLIVE.htm

So where's the plane? My bet is in the lake. Anyone want to rent a dredge?

[meppie-meppie not]

1. how do you know the lake hasn't already been dredged?

4 yrs is a long time.

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. Dredging a lake

is not a subtle thing. Lot's of people would notice a dredging operation.

No, part of the magic trick was to make everyone look over here for a plane, while you ditch it over there where no one is looking.

[meppie-meppie not]

3. ya that makes sense...if a plane were at the bottom that

would take some massive equipment...sometimes these neurons are a bit slow in firing :banghead:

[DoYouEverWonder]

4. Also, depends on what the bottom of the lake is like

if it's mucky it would eventually suck the airplane into itself. Great way to hide evidence.

[spooked911]

5. What is this about seeing four lights????

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. It's from an old Star Trek story

where Captain Picard is captured and they are trying to brainwash him. There are 4 lights, but his tormentor keeps insisting that there are five. In the end, Picard is released in very bad shape but still insisting that there are only four lights. It seems to fit with how I feel when I look for planes that don't exist.

[spooked911]

10. I see, thanks!

:)

[spooked911]

6. Flight 710 seems similar

On March 17, 1960, Northwest Airlines flight 710 left Minneapolis-St. Paul on schedule. It made a scheduled 1/2 hour stop at Chicago and took-off again for the warmth of Miami. On board were 33 men, 23 women, and one baby riding as passengers, along with six crew members. At about 1pm, the 63 people were cruising above a cloud layer at 18,000 feet over Tell City, Indiana.

Then something happened.
Witnesses on the ground heard tearing sounds in the sky. They looked up and saw the thick fuselage of the Electra emerging from the clouds. The entire right wing was missing, and only a stub of the left wing remained attached to the Electra.

The airliner seemed to float for a while, defying the laws of gravity. But then it dipped, diving straight down toward the ground, trailing white smoke and pieces of aircraft. The 63 people entombed in the fuselage struck the muddy ground, vertically, at 618 miles per hour.

All 63 people on board were killed, but there were no bodies- and hardly any aircraft wreckage! The tremendous velocity of the aircraft caused the Electra to telescope when it struck the earth. It created a 60 foot deep crater. Rescuers found nothing at the site of impact larger than a spoon.

http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~steve/Spiro/electra1.html

This aircraft fell out of the sky because its wing came off. I have to wonder if flight 93 was shot out of the sky. It is not clear one could intentionally crash a plane to make it do this, as the terrorists were supposed to have done.

[DoYouEverWonder]

8. It would be interesting to see the pics of that crash

BTW: Was the debris field in front of or behind the crash site?

[meppie-meppie not]

9. good question

[spooked911]

11. I couldn't find any pictures of that crash.

From the description, it sounded very similar to the flight 93 crash-- no big debris and just a crater.

[spooked911]

12. After learning more, there are major differences with flight 93 and

flight 710. See here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=39361&mesg_id=43052

and here:
http://www.avsaf.org/reports/US/1960.03.17_NorthwestAirlines_LockheedElectra.pdf
(page 5)
Basically, parts of the tail and wings were sticking out of the crater-- UNLIKE FLIGHT 93.

[ROH]

13. Very useful comparison anyway ...

in view of those differences.

[stickdog]

15. Here is the actual accident report for Flight 710

The crater wasn't 60 feet deep. It was more like 30 feet deep.

Read this report starting on page 5:

http://www.avsaf.org/reports/US/1960.03.17_NorthwestAirlines_LockheedElectra.pdf

[John Doe II]

14. Have a look

at the thread "The official UA 93 story is a big hoax" please.
Following eyewitnesses there are phenomens west and east of crash site which seem to me impossible to have been created by one plane. In several scenarios I've described the problem that occurs is that one plane simply disappeared.
I say let's rent a bout from Jim Brant...

P.S. So far nobody has been able to explain how a plane flying as low as it was seen by all witnesses can have even theoretically have entered the ground at an angle of 90°. See: Part II: ... and kiss the official UA 93 story good-bye!

[DoYouEverWonder]

16. Could what entered the ground

have been a missile? Some people reported hearing 2 - 3 loud booms.

One could have been a missile firing and hitting the jet. Then the jet hitting the water would be two. The third being a second missile that hit the ground either because it missed it's target (ie the plane) or was shot at the ground to create a decoy site?

What I don't understand was how most of the debris from Flight 93 ended miles ahead of the crash site? It wasn't that windy out and something as heavy as an engine should have ended up behind or at the crash site, not a mile or two ahead of it.

[DoYouEverWonder]

17. First witnesses at crash site say there is NO PLANE

One question, "is what happened to the physical wreckage of the plane?"

"There was no plane," Ernie Stull, mayor of Shanksville, told German television in March 2003:

"My sister and a good friend of mine were the first ones there," Stull said. "They were standing on a street corner in Shanksville talking. Their car was nearby, so they were the first here--and the fire department came. Everyone was puzzled, because the call had been that a plane had crashed. But there was no plane."

"They had been sent here because of a crash, but there was no plane?" the reporter asked.

"No. Nothing. Only this hole."

http://www.911review.org/Wiki/Flight93.shtml





Funny the crater in Shanksville, looks more like a crater made by a missile. Here's a couple of examples:



Bomb crater - Iraq


Bomb Crater at the Gallon License Store. The track
behind the crater leads off to the hospital which is located
amongst the trees in the background of the photo.

[spooked911]

18. I think the main problem with the Indian Lake theory

which I had been entertaining myself, is that the Lake is not that big and is also surrounded by houses:



So it is hard to believe that they could hide a plane in that lake, without the local people knowing about it. Unless you want to propose that the locals have been silenced, but that enters a new realm of theory.

One other possibility is that part of lake is less developed and that is where they crashed the plane, where no one could see it. But that requires quite a bit of careful planning which is hard for me to believe.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. First of all

the lake is not surrounded by houses. More then half the shoreline is undeveloped. Besides this happened during working hours, so I would assume many people would not be home or at the least they would probably be indoors. Also, sight lines can be very limited, especially on a lake as curved as Indian Lake. (I live on a lake, so I speak from experience)

Second, there are reports of people seeing lots of debris coming down into the lake.

Now if your are inside a building, by the time you hear the boom and run outside, most of the plane would have already been in or under the water. Especially if it flew in at a high speed and at a steep angle. Even if it floated for a while, most people around the lake wouldn't have been able to see it.


Here's one of the eyewitness reports.

Fleegle, marina owner Jim Brant and two of Brant's employees were among the dozens who witnessed the crash from Indian Lake. Fleegle had just returned to the marina to get fuel for a boat that had run out of gas when Carol Delasko called him into the drydock barn to watch news of the World Trade Center attack.

"All of a sudden the lights flickered and we joked that maybe they were coming for us. Then we heard engines screaming close overhead. The building shook. We ran out, heard the explosion and saw a fireball mushroom," said Fleegle, pointing to a clearing on a ridge at the far end of the lake.

Delasko, who ran outside moments later, said she thought someone had blown up a boat on the lake. "It just looked like confetti raining down all over the air above the lake," she said.


http://www.flight93crash.com/MyPittsburghLIVE.htm

Sounds like a fair bit of the plane ended up in the lake. What's really amazing is that this is 2 to 5 miles AHEAD of the official crash site. How did that happen? Why was no debris found behind the official crash site?

[John Doe II]

22. As I said

the scenarios that explain best the witnesses always have the strange implicataion that one plane vanished (and not into the crater). So Indian Lake is of course a pretty good idea. I'll kick the witness thread for better understanding.

[philb]

19. Retired Pentagon arms negotiator says he knows pilot who shot down Fl 93

Colonel Donn de Grand Pre (ret), was the top US arms negotiator and dealer to the Middle East under the Ford and Carter administrations

AJ
Was United Airlines Flight 93 shot down in Pennsylvania by a U.S. or NATO pilot and was that what was supposed to hit the Pentagon?

DGP: No, that was hit at 10:00 hours. It was taken out by the North Dakota Air Guard. I know the pilot who fired those two missiles to take down 93.
it was on a course for either the Capitol or the White House. And at this stage, you don't know. The Happy Hooligans came in and took care of it. The Adj. General of the State of North Dakota gave the command to take it out. And, by God, they took it out. They were out of Hector Field, Fargo, North Dakota. this 119 Fighter Group and they are called the Happy Hooligans. They are probably the best interceptors that we have in the country. They were moved to Langley Air Force Base from Hector Field down to Southern Virginia. And when the klaxon horn went off at 9:35, those two pilots put down their coffee and shot into their aircraft and took off. They didn't know where they were going initially but by 10:00 hours, they had rendezvoused over Southern Pennsylvania. That's about 250 miles in just a matter of minutes and engaged 93 with two side-winder missiles. And they accomplished their objective. Now Hector Field, I use to fly out of Hector Field some time ago. I know most of those pilots. I could name names. I know the National Guard Adj. General. And they were decorated about a year later and I have the full write up of that story in my book.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904degrand.html

[philb]

21. Isn't this an obvious conflict with several points of official story UA93?

UA 93
Cleveland air traffic controllers called Dennis Fritz, the air traffic manager at the Johnstown-Cambria County Airport, 56 miles east of Pittsburgh, at 10:04 a.m. They said the plane was 15 miles south of him, bearing down on the airport."
(AP, 9/20/01)

Seismic said plane went down at 10:06;
9/11 Commission said 10:03

so several minutes of the black box tape are missing at a crucial point regarding what happened to UA 93.