Do you talk to the people you know about MIHOP/LIHOP?

[stevans_41902]

I am fairly new here and stumbled across the 9-11 boards last week. WOW - for the first time ever I am convinced that the version I thought was true is nothing but a coverup. Some of the stuff on the conspiracy sites I could disregard, like the claim that Todd Beamer used a cell phone which couldn't have worked, and if it were really him he would have called his wife. I found a site that said he had used an airphone which somehow went through to an airphone operator. That part is believable (at least for me.)
I think the proof comes from the "facts" we got from the news that don't match up to one another. I just want someone to try to explain to me how the recorders on the plane that crashed into the WTC and everything else on it exploded on impact but they were able to find a passport in the rubble? Also, it seems very suspicious that they did not release the other videos of the crash into the pentagon. The vidoes of the planes crashing into the WTC were shown over and over again at every angle, but they can't show us the video from the hotel/freeway?

Sorry back to my original question, do the people on here that believe MIHOP/LIHOP try to discuss this w/ their friends or families. I think I would get some really angry responses from even the huge dems i know who hate bush and think he stole the election. What has been your experience talking to people about it and how do you approach the subject?

[Rob Conn]

1. Good post, good points

Hello, I haven't been here much longer, but it all been at DU9/11, and I'm really getting into it. I'm trying to be a 9/11 educator. You are off to a good start I would say. Glad to hear that the facts have shifted the truth for another individual. Welcome to the club. Its a lonely club for now, and that's why some of are here. And then others are here to diffuse, distort, and digress. Don't get caught in pointless arguments about physical evidence that was destroyed before it could be examined. There's no time for 'plane pods' and 'C4 coated rebar', when the most powerful evidence is related to the quite apparent cover-up, and documentary evidence that can not be disputed.

A couple of specific responses to references. The passport is suspicious, and I think totally bogus, but it can be explained by the presence of baggage that was recovered on the streets around the WTC. On the other hand there is no evidence of any baggage at the Pentagon, which is certainly a problem for both stories. Also, the confiscation of the three other videos of the Pentagon crash, is without any plausable explanation, and certainly a good reason to question the intentions of those responsible.

In reference to your initial question, I would say that you are entering a new peer group that is very small. Hide what you know from those who would persecute you, but have the courage to find out. Some will refuse to be educated because they are afraid to make the same decision. But others will respond to facts and reason. I can make a very powerful statement that is hard to fully dismiss regardless of your assumptions. I believe that the government played a vital role in the facilitating the attack of 9/11. This is Lihop and Mihop, and makes this distinction irrelevant to me. Symantic games will get us no where. Don't be fooled by those who would have you believe that the movement is divided into arguing camps. There are only those who will hide, secretly in here, and those who will represent themselves and inform others. And many of them will be wrong, but hopefully more flexible. You either recognize that the government has lied to us, or you have ignored that fact. The only way that we will not be lonely with the truth is to share it with others. The movement is growing every day. And before long this issue will come to a head and boil over into the mainstream press. But only if those who are willing to represent the truth push back against the weight of an 'official truth' that is unreasonably coincidental.

All of the debate you find in here is healthy, but doesn't introduce the subject very well. People will think you are nuts unless you have specific facts to express that are hard to refute. When you create a contradition in someone, it often has to be worked out, even if the person is trying to ignore it. You can plant a seen of fact with someone that will blossom long after. Read a couple of books, get the case together in your head, and then develop an approach for addressing the issue with people who have never questioned the 'official version'. That would make a whole lot more impact then all the armchair discussions that go on every day in here. - R.C.

[stickdog]

3. Don't forget that a card was supposedly found in Flight 93's rubble

that supposedly had a number on it that supposedly links Ziad Jarrah to Zacarias Moussaoui.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A63020-2002Sep24¬Found=true

A business card found in the wreckage of United Airlines Flight 93 in the Pennsylvania countryside provides a link between the Sept. 11 hijackers and alleged conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui, federal prosecutors said yesterday.

The card may be the first concrete evidence of contact or association by Moussaoui with any of the 19 hijackers who commandeered four airplanes and killed more than 3,000 people. The indictment charging Moussaoui, 34, with conspiring with the hijackers was scant on details that would connect him with the terrorists.

But prosecutors revealed a link yesterday in arguing that cockpit voice recordings from Flight 93 should be played at Moussaoui's trial in January. In court papers, the lead prosecutor, Assistant U.S. Attorney Robert A. Spencer, said Moussaoui had called a phone number that investigators found written on a business card they tied to Ziad Jarrah, one of the Flight 93 hijackers.

[Kevin Fenton]

4. Quality of evidence

This doesn't strike me as particularly good evidence, as the article goes on to say:
"Spencer's brief does not say to whom the phone number belonged or whether the person or business is relevant to the conspiracy. It also is not clear whether the card had Jarrah's name on it or was found among his belongings."

How do they know it's Jarrah's card? They're going to get one of his classmates to identify his voice? Why not get his mum or one of his brothers?

The number is probably a pizza parlour or something.

[petgoat]

14. Ziad Jarrah Photos

Look at these two photos of Ziad Jarrah. Do they look like the same person to you?


http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=jarrah+emirates&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=+Go+

[demodewd]

5. re: pod

IMHO there is ample photographic evidence of the pod on 175.

[Kevin Fenton]

2. Sometimes

When I did believe in it, I did discuss it, with mixed reactions. I sort of judged it on a case by case basis. I found a lot of people are receptive to a certain degree.

I don't think the black boxes are supposed to have exploded on impact, but to have been destroyed in the collapse/lost in the rubble or something - I don't really believe it, they should be there somewhere. Then again, it was an extreme event, prehaps they really were lost. I figure the passport must have been in the hand luggage, perhaps in an overhead locker and, when the skin of the fuselage ripped open, some of the luggage spilled out and the passport with it. I don't think it's that odd.
It's certainly odd that the Pentagon video(s) have not been released, but the reason for this might be that if they start addressing he conspiracy theories involving the Pentagon, then they will come under pressure to explain the other 9/11 ones as well, which would probably be a lot harder (impossible IMO).

[leftofthedial]

6. I talk to many many people about it

most now believe it was MIHOP

sadly, most are also apathetic and myopic and don't really think it matters.

[spooked911]

8. Sadly, that is my wife's attitude -- that it doesn't matter

and there's nothing we can do about it, so why waste my time on it (when I could be helping her with the kids :) ).

[demodewd]

7. whatever you do..

Whatever you do...don't start with Flight 93. The hero legend has most people by the balls(or other places).

[spooked911]

9. In general, no-- it's too awkward. The best I have done is just to raise

very general questions about the attacks and try to get feelers of where they stand. The two people outside my family I have raised the idea with have been very taken aback by the notion that it was an inside job-- but who knows, maybe the seed of doubt is planted.

[stevans_41902]

10. Well, I didn't even mean to discuss it with my boyfriend, we were just

talking about Bush and he brought it up that after 9-11 he got the feeling Bush was behind it. I had never heard anything like this from him before so i was surprised. I told him about the evidence i found, but he tried debunking most of it. When it came to the passport, he is a fireman so he said he's seen lots of weird stuff with finding things like books that have not burned even though everything around them has. He asked me if they found any belongings from other passengers, which i didn't know if they did or not. He still thinks flight 93 was taken down by the passengers and did not crash in one big piece like most crashes b/c most crashes do not go nose down and are taken down by professional pilots. He WAS convinced that Bush knew about it, though, esp. after i told him about being in the classroom for several mins. after he was told the country was under attack and the fact that he went from having a very poor approval rating to 90%. (used it as an opportunity to gain power...)
I can't believe people still talk about Bush being "heroic" by keeping the children calm and staying to read the story. Even though he is a moron, he still has to have some sense of self preservation that would make him want to evacuate the building UNLESS he knew that he was safe.

[Kevin Fenton]

11. Lots of stuff

The passport is wierd, but I think lots of stuff from other passengers was found - the top part of a plane is relatively light and when the planes hit the WTC, the fuselage could have burst open, spilling bags in the overhead lockers. Haven't heard of anything been found at the Pentagon though.

What Card says to him is very vague, something like "Another plane just hit the other tower and America's under attack." There's nothing there about whether the FAA thought there were more hijacked planes in the air. There's nothing to say he has to leave or do anything else immediately. I find it strange he didn't leave the school for his own safety right away, but I suppose they have radar and could have seen if an unauthorised plane was approaching, so perhaps that's why.

I very much doubt he knew anything about it before that morning. Even though I can see he is perhaps not the brightest, I would have thought that, if he did have foreknowledge, he would have come up with a better abili. The same applies to Rummy and Myers.

[stevans_41902]

12. The reason I said that Bush should have known that 3 planes had been

hijacked before he went in the school was because of this website:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayaninterestingday.html

"Flight 93 wasn't hijacked until about 9:16, but by about 8:50, it was clear that at least three planes had been hijacked."

Bush talks to Condi before going into the school:
"As National Security Advisor, Rice had to have had as much information as anyone. By the time she spoke to Bush, she must have known that three planes had been hijacked and that the country was under attack. We know very little about the conversation - only that Rice later claimed, " said, what a terrible, it sounds like a terrible accident. Keep me informed."

If this info is true, then he either knew what was going on or he just had no clue what to do and hoped someone else would take care of it while he kept busy reading My Pet Goat.

[Kevin Fenton]

15. Bush

Card gave Bush the message at 9:06, 3 minutes after the second plane hit the WTC. Whichever time you take for United 93's hijacking, this is before. American 11 and United 175 had already crashed and there was nothing Bush could do about them. They claim that they did not know American 77 had been hijacked. It seems Card didn't call the FAA before he gave Bush the message, so he wouldn't have known the FAA thought there were another 11 possible hijacks.

I would imagine that if Bush had known in advance, then he would have had some better alibi. Also, if he knew they were coming why would he have had air cover at his ranch in Texas and at the G8 summit in Italy, plus the missile battery on his hotel in Florida?

Obviously, this doesn't show that the administration was not deliberately negligent (perhaps they wanted attacks but assumed they would not be so destructive) or that they didn't manipulate the attacks after the started.

[petgoat]

13. Do You Talk

A relatively safe way to feel them out is either with some isolated
anomaly in a Fun Facts to Know and Tell kind of way like:

"Why did WTC 7 come down?"
or
"Why won't they release the Pentagon video tapes?"
or
"Did you know Taliban warned us before 9/11?"
or
"Why did the 9/11 Commission fail to follow the money trail? Was it
because the guy who ordered $100k wired to Mohammed Atta was
breakfasting with Porter Goss on 9/11? Was it because of Chairman
Kean's business ties to suspected terrorist financier Khalid bin
Mahfouz?"
or
"Did you know Osama met with the CIA in Dubai in 7/01?"
or
"Did you know that WTC security was handled by Stratesec, a company of
which Marvin Bush had been a director for 7 years?"


Another safe way to ease in is to discuss the many warnings that the
Bushites had before 9/11, and Condi's lie when she said nobody
imagined aircraft as weapons.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=essaytheytriedtowarnus

[Endangered Specie]

16. yes, incidentally...

I know that may come as a suprise.