What melted the huge steel beams at the WTC towers?

[philb]

As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running.
All photographs shown on television, shot-on-site were preapproved by the FBI.
We were shown photographs that were not released for public view.

http://www.seau.org/SEAUNews-2001-10.pdf


There were lots of witnesses to the molten steel and lots of talk about it; It caused much problems in cleanup.

So, what melted the massive steel columns? and why were some photographs with-held from the public?

Its obvious that gasoline fires didn't melt the steel. Does anyone think that could have happened?

[philb]

1. WTC7 also had molten or evaporated steel it seems

Besides molten steel, the rubble reportedly contained some partially evaporated steel. The New York Times quoted Dr. Jonathan Barnett, professor of fire protection engineering at the Worcester Polytechnic Institute, as saying that fire in WTC-7:

would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated in extraordinarily high temperatures.
Building fires do not melt steel structural elements for two reasons. First, the fires are not hot enough. It's hard to get a fire hot enough to melt steel. That's why you can cook food in steel pots over a steel gas stove, why an internal combustion can be made of steel, why you can use an iron grating in your fireplace. To get fires hot enough to melt steel, it is necessary to pump preheated air into the fire under pressure, as in a blast furnace. http://nogw.com/documents/0927200307NYTimes7WTCwhy_page.htm

Second, and perhaps more importantly, steel is a great conductor of heat. When you heat part of a steel structure (and remember the fires in WTC-7 were, by all accounts, small and isolated) the heat is conducted away from the point where the fire is applied, cooling it. As Jim Hoffman explains:
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/radio/youreyesdontlie/index.html

The steel in these buildings is very well connected to thousands of tons of steel and if you pour heat on to one portion of it, it will simply conduct the heat away. So it's very hard to get columns in such a building heated up anywhere near the temperatures of the actual fires. A company, Corus Construction, conducted extensive fire tests in steel-framed car parks, which were uninsulated, in multiple countries, and measured the temperatures on the steel frames throughout these structures for the duration of these fires, which went on for hours, and the highest temperature they recorded in any of these tests was a mere 360 degrees Celsius. Now, at 360 degrees Celsius structural steel only loses about one percent of its strength.
No jets flew into WTC-7, and it was not doused with jet fuel. It did contain tanks of diesel fuel for backup generators, etc., but diesel fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel. (Which is why a diesel engine can be made of steel.) If WTC-7 collapsed through normal means, in the absence of explosives, how does one explain the evidence of extremely high temperatures, especially given that the fires were small? Explosives, however, can easily produce such temperatures. Thermite, for example, can reach temperatures of 3000 degrees Celsius.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite

[philb]

2. NASA measured hot spots at WTC- too hot for gasoline fires

Five days after the collapse, on September 16, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) used an Airborne Visible/Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) to locate and measure the site's hot spots.



http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html

Dozens of hot spots were mapped. The hottest spots at the surface of the rubble, where abundant oxygen was available, showed a temperature of 1377° F (747° C). This is, however, less than half as hot at the molten steel in the basement.

Construction steel has an extremely high melting point of about 2,800° Fahrenheit (1535° Celsius). Kerosene-based jet fuel, paper, or the other combustibles normally found in the towers, cannot generate this much heat, especially in an oxygen-poor environment like a deep basement.

It should be noted that one of the few things capable of producing such extreme temperatures in these conditions is thermite, a chemical compound used in demolition explosives.

TOO HOT FOR JET FUEL

It has been calculated that if the entire 10,000 gallons of jet fuel from the aircraft was injected into just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with the perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor and that no heat escaped this floor by conduction, then the jet fuel could have only raised the temperature of this floor to, at the very most, 536°F (280°C). You can find the calculation here.

http://www.letsroll911.org/articles/controlleddemolition.html

Hot spots under the WTC towers were detected by, Source: USGS Spectroscopy Lab http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html
The fires are too deep for firefighters to get to.
Read More
Hot spots, pools of molten steel, and as has been established, you cant melt steel with jet fuel. The only conclusion Grassroots InfoMedia can come to on this, with sources such as the USGS, is that something happened, and the US government, and Popular Mechanics, are very deliberately covering it up, and what is even more amazing, all too many people are buying the lies.
http://www.freedomisforeverybody.org/911physics.php

[philb]

3. New York Sanitation Workers had to remove molten steel beams at WTC

Once the area was cleaned, normal commercial trash collections resumed by the haulers that are licensed and regulated by the Trade Waste Commissioner,” Dawkins says. But for about two and a half months after the attacks, in addition to its regular duties, NYDS played a major role in debris removal — everything from molten steel beams to human remains — running trucks back and forth between Ground Zero and Fresh Kills landfill, which was reopened to accommodate the debris.

http://www.wasteage.com/mag/waste_dday_ny_sanitation/

[spooked911]

4. Thermite charges.

http://home.comcast.net/~skydrifter/wtc.htm

[Christophera]

14. Most Perimeter And Interior Box Columns Plated With Thermite In 1993.

The thermite must have intimate contact with the steel. The bomb blast in 1993, (FBI approved?) provided reason to close the basement.



http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html#anchor1208442



I actually recall watching the news in 1994 when the first floor reopened and the news caster was talking about the repair and remodel, he mentioned "special fireproofing" added in case of another terrorist act.

The secret infiltration of government has made irony in time and molten steel in the basement.

[Make7]

5. Why not post some examples?

philb wrote:
There were lots of witnesses to the molten steel and lots of talk about it...

-Make7

[philb]

6. I have posted examples. Did you not read them???

You could do a web search as easily as I, but I think you and I both have seen a lot of examples posted before,
if you've been looking at the sites referenced.

The references I've posted make it pretty clear it seems to me. Do you think the sanitation workers who cleaned up the site and Waste Age, a rather credible source, main source in its field, are making up and printing disinformation?

The presidents of both of the main contractors involved in the cleanup said that there was molten steel in the residue. Can you think of a reason they would have for making that claim if it wasn't true? Not that I would accept anything they say just because they say it.

[Make7]

7. I'm sorry, I should have been more specific.

Could you post some examples of actual statements made by witnesses? Like this:

American Free Press asked Loizeaux about the report of molten steel on the site. "Yes," he said, "hot spots of molten steel in the basements." These incredibly hot areas were found "at the bottoms of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven levels," Loizeaux said. The molten steel was found "three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed," Loizeaux said. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon.

http://www.letsroll911.org/articles/controlleddemolition.html

I guess it's confirmed by these (although they are not really actual statements by witnesses):

Steve Tully of Tully Construction and Mark Loizeaux of Controlled Demolition, Inc. both reported that there were large pools of molten steel.

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/radio/youreyesdontlie/index.html

...there were pools of melted steel. Explain the pools of molten steel burning 70 feet below street level for 100 days after 9-11. The existence of these burning pools of molten steel were confirmed by:
Mark Lorieux of Controlled Demolition, Inc
Peter Tully, President of Tully Construction
and the American Free Press newspaper

http://www.freedomisforeverybody.org/911physics.php

So I could only find one direct quote - reported by the American Free Press.

You said "there were lots of witnesses to the molten steel" at the WTC towers. But that's all I found in what you posted. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to where all the witness accounts are.

-Make7

[philb]

8. I provided USGS data and reports by sanitation workers

and the Univ. of Utah reference.

There seemed enough evidence to not take more of my time on such.

You have reason to disbelieve the presidents of the 2 companies that were in charge of the removal? Though I would not believe anything they say just because they say it, I don't know of any reason they would make this up.
And I have seen stories that the hot temperatures delayed search and cleanup at the site.

The articles I've posted also make it clear that the temperatures found by the Government data are inconsistent with gasoline fires at WTC.

[Make7]

9. What I disbelieve is the source reporting those claims.

The USGS data doesn't say anything about molten steel, does it? Perhaps I missed it.

I didn't see an eye-witness account by a single sanitation worker in your posts.

You said there were lots of witnesses, I'm just asking you to actually show that there were. Maybe three is a lot, what the hell do I know?

Loizeaux told AFP that the steel-melting fires were fueled by "paper, carpet and other combustibles packed down the elevator shafts by the tower floors as they 'pancaked' into the basement."

So maybe he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

-Make7

[philb]

11. The USGS test was for temperatures, did not analyse materials.

The debris had hot spots not consistent with gas fires, and for debris from locations other than the floors affected by the fire.

The other source I gave was NY Sanitation Workers report to Waste Age, an extremely credible journal. The library where I work gets it as the only one we receive in that field.

Loizeaux may not know much about melting temperatures of steel, but his company was cleaning up the site and he surely would be able to recognize molten steel.

There was also a Univ. Professor on the FEMA committee who I quoted, and he not only observed the steel but was an expert on such.

[Make7]

10. "Think of the jet fuel."

Construction steel has an extremely high melting point of about 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit.

Asked what could have caused such extreme heat, Tully said, "Think of the jet fuel."

- Christopher Bollyn

"You have reason to disbelieve the presidents of the 2 companies that were in charge of the removal?" - philb

[philb]

12. I don't expect construction/maintenance people to know the melting

point of steel, but I do expect they know when they see molten steel.
I didn't quote either as an expert on the melting temperature of steel or the temperature of gas fires.

But both surely would know if they see molten steel. Are you suggesting they aren't qualified to know whether a steel beam is melted or not??


I haven't seen any evidence to doubt their competance to know whether a steel beam is melted or not.

But regarding whether a gas fire could melt steel, jet engines are made from steel and don't melt or deform. And experts note that the fires in WTC were much lower than in a jet engine, and the gas fires lasted not more than 10 minutes.

Have you seen to pictures of the people walking around on the floor the plane hit not long after the crash?

[Make7]

13. I'm suggesting AFP is not a credible source.

Have you seen the pictures of the molten steel?

-Make7

[philb]

16. Waste Age is a credible source

so are the people who are quoted.
The source is what is important, not the web site.

Are you suggesting that the CEOs of the waste companies were misquoted? If so, wouldn't they have objected or requested a retraction?

My main sources listed were Gov't site USGS and Waste age. You are the one talking about other sources.

Are you suggesting that USGS faked their temperature data?

[Make7]

18. What is the melting point of steel?

What is the highest temperature of the hot spots in the USGS data?

Does that prove that any steel melted?
____________________

I have yet to see the name of a single witness to the molten steel at the Twin Towers that didn't originate from AFP. (And that only amounted to three.)

You were the one that said there were lots of witnesses. Where are they? (Or should I just consider three to be "lots" for this discussion? And consider AFP to be a source worth believing? Perhaps not.)

-Make7

[drdtroit]

17. Nonsense n/t

[leftofthedial]

15. bush bile

the most corrosive substance known