MIHOP/LIHOP Poll

[bryant69]

Poll question: MIHOP/LIHOP Poll

Just curious to see how we shake out, and also how firm we are in our position, if that makes sense.

For those who don't know LIHOP refers to President Bush Letting It Happen On Purpose. MIHOP refers to President Bush Making It Happen On Purpose. In both cases "it" refers to 9/11 (although I suppose now it could also refer to the London Bombings).

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[cdb]

1. Again being naive and optimistic

I can see how others would feel this way, but not mihop or lihop

[OneBlueSky]

4. personally, I'm FIOP . . .

Facilitated It On Purpose . . .

that's a little more proactive than LIHOP . . .

[KyndCulture]

8. ooh good one... That's about where I fall in the spectrum too.

[Walt Starr]

2. LIHTI

Let It Happen Through Incompetence.

So I could not vote in your poll even though I like to vote.

[tx_dem41]

6. We agree, Walt. I went ahead and voted for the 2nd neither option.

n/t

[TheDebbieDee]

7. I'm with you, Walt Starr........

We're talking about an administration that ignores pertinent information (8-5-01 Daily Briefing about OBL's imminent attack) and can't accomplish something as simple as ordering enough flu shots.

Let It Happen Through Incompetence should be the meme for the * admin.

[etherealtruth]

14. That's my belief

However one looks at it ---- it really is the Chimps fault and thousands are dead because of it!

[Maru Kitteh]

39. Check me right next to you Walt

I do believe that best describes my position.

[darkism]

41. That's what I was going to say.

But I believe the next incident will be LIHOP.

[MercutioATC]

49. That's my vote, too

[steve2470]

52. You and I think alike Walt nt

[LARED]

61. Put me down for LIHTI (n/t)

[mikelewis]

66. Really? I thought you were an OCT'er.

[pox americana]

67. That is the OCT.

We're supposed to believe they "never could have imagined" it, remember? Even though they were conducting planes-into-buildings wargames that morning?

[MercutioATC]

71. Agreeing with LARED. This IS the OCT without the

"we had NO idea it could happen" element...

...they had the information, they were just too incompetent to deal with the situation.

[sabbat hunter]

100. ditto

me too

[StrafingMoose]

91. Incompetence...

IMHO, wouldn't have ended in a perfectly executed (OK, Fl 93 didn't reach it's target) plot with no air defense bothering the hijacked flights.

And if it WAS incompetence, the 9/11 Commission certainly haven't found evidences that could have indicted anyone of criminal negligence. Criminal negligence is a very real and recognized crime in law affairs and would perfectly fit the people who shut down the FBI investigations.

The very fact that the 9/11 Commission didn't assign blame to anyone and didn't provide hope of retribution for the 9/11 families (according to the spokewomen who were at McKinney's meeting not so long ago) tells me that a) these people were protecting something, someone willingly or b) didn't want to open 'cans of worms', therefore implicitly saying to themselves "you know, maybe there's more to it than just feck ups..."

The 9/11 Commission basicaly told people "Sorry, we messed up. We lacked imagination. But no one's getting kicked out, you will even see promotions! But sorry... Yea, dead people sucks."

Now they're telling us like the "professionals" they are that they know how to handle terror threats and that the American people should give up their freedom, they know what they're doing in Iraq, in Abu Grahib, Gitmo, etc.

That's just my 2 cents...

[mopinko]

3. more and more every day

as the evil that is the bfee reveals itself. from thought to flames. a wholly owned subsidiary of the bfee.

[SteppingRazor]

5. I voted Neither, but I can understand...

Though really, I can only understand LIHOP. MIHOP is absurd. But hey, that's just my opinion. And I'm not the smartest man. :dunce:

[rman]

15. You're in good company

Noam Chomsky's objection to MIHOP is that "they'd have to be insane".

I say: what makes you think they are not?

I suppose you are familiar with the RW's spin, their arguments, their policies. What's not absurd about those?

They are either completely stupid, or malicious.

[SteppingRazor]

22. Their arguments and policies are meant...

to help the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. If you look through that prism, most of their policies make perfect sense. But not MIHOP. In the end, it's bad for business -- except for defense contractors, of course.

[rman]

46. PNAC's policies clearly are about global dominance

To me that's more then helping the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. That's about power and control - a lot of it. Instead of doing business they could just as well take a short cut and profit off of our labor directly. Looking through their prism, it's very efficient.

They'd have to have

no scruples - check
no morality - check
no conscience - check
lots of money - check
strong motivation - check

And just look at what's happening all over the world.

[Al-CIAda]

55. 'But not MIHOP. In the end, it's bad for business'

Bad for business? Ha! Fortunes are being made. Otherwise unfathomable looting and raiding is going on.

[StrafingMoose]

93. the "insane" rebutal...

lies on the assumption that malicious people in a governement are only for 'other' nations, 'other' people, 'other' races, not the USA. I'd say that some people think that if a governement attacks their own people they will have this big "We sure are a dictatorship" sign on the White House. I'd be curious to know how many German regular joes thought Hitler was a malicious murderer in 1934, for example.

[MikeDuffy]

9. HIHOP - Helped It Happen On Purpose

In between LIHOP and MIHOP...

[catzies]

37. I voted LIHOP but I can support HIHOP. Because MIHOP seems redundant.

I think what you're saying is LIHOp sounds a little passive, and HIHOP implies direct actions. I can agree with that.

[Catholic Sensation]

10. neither

i know it's outrageous, but i do believe al qaeda is capable of killing thousands of civilians.

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. And Bushco is not?

[Catholic Sensation]

12. what evidence do you have that "bushco" did 9-11?

and don't give me that pnac memo, that's not proof.

[Corgigal]

13. FAA 7110.65

Read it. What the FEDERAL GOVT has as standard operating procedure.
Understand what didn't occur that day, but does every other damn day.

[Catholic Sensation]

17. I know this isn't Rense.com or Serendipity, so you may not

trust the source, but what I got from the Washington Post is that the flight was off radar for thirty minutes and re-appeared, but that because of the flight's location (close to a radar weak en-route area) that they figured that was the reason the flight was taken off radar. It wasn't off radar the entire time it was in the air, only about thirty minutes.

[Corgigal]

19. Excuse the flip out of me

I couldn't give a damn what they printed. I USED those RULES to keep people alive in airplanes.

You my dear, don't understand IFR rules of flight, transponder information, radio procedures or emergency rules. IFR planes aren't allowed to just turn around change altitudes and completely change course of direction.

[bryant69]

25. SO I take it you can't understand how people might not be LIHOP/MIHOP

[Corgigal]

26. IM not MIHOP

I just can't handle thinking our Govt is capable.

LIHOP because IFR planes running around the busiest sector in the northeast without control, is a best, a rather curious situation.
Of course the controllers in Newark, who knew everything, are not allowed to speak.

[AntiCoup2K4]

40. But is that your only reason for not being MIHOP?

Not wanting to believe they are capable, that is?

None of us WANT to believe it. I despise the Bush Criminal Empire, but I don't want to believe they're capable of this.

Yet look at what history shows us they ARE capable of.

They financed Hitler's rise to power. They have been involved with the CIA from day one, and Poppy played personal roles in the Bay of Pigs, in the establishment of the international drug trade, and quite possibly in the assassinations of JFK, RFK, and MLK among others. The Watergate coverup is likely linked to some or all of the above.

Osama Bin Laden is an old friend of the Bush family. So is John Hinckley Jr, who shot Ronald Reagan. Neil Bush, brother of the Chimp stole millions from Savings & Loans scams. Marvin Bush, another brother, was involved with security at the World Trade Center. Poppy Bush had a breakfast meeting on 9-11-01 with Shafeeg Bin Laden and they watched the Pentagon go up in smoke from a hotel window.

Why do we kid ourselves? These motherfuckers are capable of ANYTHING. And I pray that this country wakes up before the next MIHOP happens.

[Corgigal]

53. straight up

It's because I'm a mother of 4 children and I can not move out of this country. I am also a NY'er and I would lose my sanity.

I'm not kidding myself, I am being honest with my defenses.

[MercutioATC]

72. Not allowed to speak to whom? Tom Brokaw?

They were interviewed by him on national TV...

[unrepuke]

27. Transponder Question; I've read the planes disapeared from radar

because "the terrorists turned off the transponders."

???

If that's all it takes to disappear an airplane why don't military pilots simply turn theirs off when they don't want the enemy tracking them?

[Corgigal]

35. no

they also have primary radar. I used Arts 3a system and I could put a computer tracking code on even a primary radar track. Now, it's hard to spot with that many planes inside a small area but don't forget NORAD also has this capability.

ATC'er don't say to each other, Hey other ATC'er, I had a plane (commerical with 100's souls on board) and I can't find it anywhere. Oh well, if it crash I guess I will find out and someone will call me. It's part of our job to find out , ah where did it go.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beam Me Up]

59. GREAT GOING Bushwack Bill! Thanks for putting all this in one place.

Edit to add: And WELCOME TO DU!

9/11 was NOT the result of "incompetence." And it was not an "intelligence failure;" on the contrary it has been an intelligence success way beyond their wildest dreams. Not one person NOT ONE PERSON has been held accountable for the events of 9/11. In fact, most people in key positions of authority on that day have been PROMOTED!

Bush knew that a plane had hit the WTC before he went into Booker Elementary school. He said he thought it must be "one bad pilot." This might be the acceptable thought of an average no-nothing, but hardly the first thoughts of someone who had only just recently been shown a PDB stating in no uncertain terms that Bin Laden was determined to strike within the US. Even if * is as stupid as we think, many many people around him are NOT stupid. The Secret Service are wired into the most sophisticated communications and chain of command networks on this planet.

Even if we give the chimp a break -- after all we know how much hard work it is to be president -- there still leaves the question of WHY the Secret Service, who are responsible for the president's safety at ALL times, did not remove the president from the classroom AFTER HE HAD BEEN TOLD THAT AMERICA WAS UNDER ATTACK. We are supposed to believe that they had NO IDEA what was happening, that unknown assailants were hijacking aircraft and flying them into buildings--the Pentagon had yet to be hit. And yet the president was allowed to stay at the elementary school form 30 to 45 minutes after EVERYONE within hearing range of a television knew that "America is under attack."

The Secret Service allowed him to stay put because THEY KNEW he was in no danger, even though they were in a publicized and disclosed location only minutes from an international air port. How did they know he was in no danger? America is under attack and they KNOW he is in no danger. HOW?

[Old and In the Way]

84. Very excellent case synopsis on MIHOP

I'd really like to believe it was incompetence, but then I'd have to believe:

(1) there is no election fraud by the Republicans
(2) taxcuts for the wealthiest 2% really helps the economy
(3) Saddam was behind 9/11 and he had WMD
(4) Our $400BB/year military can't protect washington with a 45 minute "heads up"
(5) Bush is a compassionate conservative
(6) He really did think it was "one terrible pilot" that flew into the WTC.
(7) Everything you note in your synopsis is a string of odd coincidences.

So Bush wants us to believe it was bad luck and incompetence? I wish I could believe him.

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. Evidence?

Are you of a mind that we cannot begin an investigation until there is proof?

That's not the way it works. It is the investigation that provides evidence and, eventually, proof. As long as Bushco is in power, there will be no investigation. They are certainly not going to investigate themselves. The litany of uncomfortable facts and coincidences is long, which is why the government has done everything in its power to obstruct any investigations into what really happened that day.

Now, coincidentally, we get the 9/11 tapes released, just as we are facing "all options on the table" for dealing with Iran.

LIHOP, at a minimum. And we're gearing up to Part II.

[Catholic Sensation]

23. No, I'm of a mind of not assuming someone's guilty

without proof. There's been evidence of al Qaeda being involved, I'll follow that evidence.

[RaleighNCDUer]

30. And who supplied that 'evidence'?

A crash destroys all the black-boxes on the two planes, but one of the hijackers' passport survived undamaged? That kind of evidence? Doesn't that tweak your sense of credulity just a little?

[StrafingMoose]

97. Hell, FBI didn't even indict bin Laden for 9/11-WTC attacks...

[titoresque]

36. who gained the most?

who still gains the most?
Also....did you at all see Farenheit 9/11, if so, did that movie not cast a small shadow of doubt, that maybe just maybe? BTW, I would bet my life that Mike Moore KNOWS this was not done by Arab highjackers.
Would you like me to send you some info gathered by very reputable people who have done extensive research which all points to an inside job?

[MercutioATC]

73. Who gained the most? The terrorists.

Look at the effect 9/11 has had on our economy, our dealings with the world and our way of life. THAT'S the biggest result of 9/11.

[spooked911]

81. Nonsense.

Bush's response to 9/11 had much more of an effect on our country than anything the terrorists did. In fact, the PERPETRATORS of 9/11 gained the most and they ARE NOT Middle Easterners. The only Middle Easterners involved in 9/11 were Patsies.

[pox americana]

82. I think that means you're both right. The terrorists cleaned up. n/t

[spooked911]

83. Yeah, you're right. M-ATC didn't really specific who the terrorists were

I only assumed he meant the official Al Qaeda dudes.

[MercutioATC]

88. Yes, Al-Qaeda...not the U.S. Government.

[MercutioATC]

87. Hardly nonsense...

Of COURSE our reaction to 9/11 was the biggest effect. That's exactly what I said.

Terrorists wanted to create terror and have a profound effect on our way of life. That's exactly what they accomplished.

[spooked911]

90. So, it didn't need to happen that way, right?

A different president could have handled the situation much better?

That's what I think anyway.

Certainly a better president would have gotten to the bottom of how the attacks came about in the first place, rather than cover-up government complicity.

[MercutioATC]

92. To a degree, no it didn't.

If CIA warnings had been taken seriously, maybe the whole thing could have been prevented.

If this President wasn't so determined to invade Iraq (even before 9/11) we wouldn't be there now, nor would we have become an international pariah for doing so.

A different administration wouldn't have used 9/11 as justification for passing the Patriot Act.

...and on and on and on...


However, these things DID happen. If you're a terrorist and you want to make a statement, what better way than to radically alter the economy and liberties of (arguably) the most powerful nation on the planet?

For a terrorist organization, this is a HUGE win.

[janedoe]

64. Means, Motive, and Opportunity

List all people who have all three of these (means, motive, opportunity).
Who has benefited the most from 9/11?
Who continues to exploit 9/11?

[MercutioATC]

89. Osama Bin Laden, for one...

Means, motive and opportunity? Yep, all three.

...plus, he has an established record of both threats and actual terrorist attacks against U.S. interests (vaguely remember the U.S.S. Cole?).

[stickdog]

106. State sponsored terrorism has a far more ESTABLISHED record.

only in other countries, of course.

[StrafingMoose]

94. Seriously, just type 9/11 in google or something...

and weed out the rotten apples for _yourself_. I strongly encourage you to not beleive ANYONE who tells you 9/11 is MIHOP or LIHOP. Search it for yourself.

[Terran1212]

18. MIHOP is almost impossible, BECAUSE

Bush and company, as powerful as they are, are still accountable to some people. THOUSANDS of people work with them. Even if sworn to secrecy, someone would leak something if it was MIHOP. Hell, I tell everyone about what I(roleplayer) and my sister (intern there) did at homeland security.

[RaleighNCDUer]

28. And if you were visited by a man in a dark suit, carrying no ID,

who advised you to be quiet, for the sake of your sister, would you still be so willing to talk?

911 stopped all talk about 2000 election fraud, at a time when *'s numbers were low, and falling.

911 solidified his position. Very conveniently.

And it wouldn't take thousands to be in on it. Probably only dozens. And of those dozens, even if a very few did speak out they would be ridiculed into silence, or silenced by more efficient means.

[Nevernose]

29. Exactly. It would take hundreds of people working together

For it to be MIHOP. It would take hundreds of people in at least five countries to plant all of the evidence leading to the hijackers, people to remote-hijack the planes, or fake the planes or whatever, plant the explosives, run the stock market scams, organize the whole operation, and God only knows what else. At least some of these people would be American citizens, in the government or the CIA, and all would have to be willing to indiscriminately slaughter thousands of innocent civilians. All of them would have to keep their mouths shut, which is pretty darn unlikely.

Occam's Razor would suggest that it is far more likely that 20 well funded, cool headed guys with box cutters crashed the planes into the buildings.

Of course, that doesn't rule out LIHOP. It would be a simple matter for a few high-level people to ignore the warnings, then claim that any accusations were either from conspiracy "nuts" or claim that hindsight is 20/20 (we've all seen Condi in front of the 9/11 comission, right?).

[RaleighNCDUer]

48. In world war II, there were death camps in several countries,

staffed by thousands of soldiers, under the command of hundreds of commanders, overseen by the SS and the Gestapo. They were built on major rail lines, near civilian populations.

Yet after the war, no one knew anything about them. No one delivered food to them. No one guarded them. No one ran their locomotives carrying millions of doomed people to them.

Where self-interest is concerned, it is amazing how silent people can be.

As I've said elsewhere, it wouldn't take thousands, maybe not even hundreds to put MIHOP together. Far fewer to LIHOP. Just the right people in the right place, with the right goods on those people to keep them quiet.

We know the the hijackers were being watched. Then they weren't. The hijackers were not living the lives of dedicated Islamists - drinking and gambling and going to strip joints. We keep hearing of people who share the hijackers' identities still living in Egypt and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia - who, then, were the men on the planes? How were they so quickly identified, if we didn't know them? If we did know them, how did they get on the planes? How is it the hijackings happened on the same day that four different exercises were going on, all of which made responding to the hijackings more problematical?

Take any government statement and dissect it, line by line, and with each line ask "how do they know that?" or "why do they say that?" or "if this was not a government source, would I believe it?".

The best lies are the simplest, and you cite Occam's Razor, but that only can apply if you don't ask the questions raised by the government's conspiracy theory.

Yes, terrorists certainly would be willing to cause massive damage and casualties, if they had the capability. I'm just not sure you're looking at the right terrorists.

[Make7]

86. "Yet after the war, no one knew anything about them." WTF?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/17/newsid_3547000/3547151.stm

[MetaTrope]

57. For me, it's more a matter of who funded those 20 guys with box cutters

How many phone calls from the U.S. to Saudi Arabia do you think it would take to get the ball rolling?

[Old and In the Way]

85. Maybe not.

A few high placed individuals in government/intelligence and some in critical areas of the communication chain could pull it off. Look at the people in the FBI who stuffed the intel from going up the ladder...they all get promotions. Same with the military. Using Global Hawk technology (and offing some of the program managers involved with these programs on 11) could have kept this to a very small operation....or it could have been outsourced to another country who might have their own agenda with the WOT.

Here's what I want to know: were 93,11,77,175 involved in the war game simulations that day? If they were, I'd have to wonder if those 19 alledged hijackers boarded those planes with a whole different idea of what they were getting involved with that morning....

[Henny Penny]

75. A lot of people have leaked....

If the lie is big enough, most people will believe it.

We all have a world view, and most people are unwilling to even consider any information that challenges that world view.

I started off thinking Osama was as good a suspect as anyone, but looking at all the evidence I have gradually evolved into a MIHOPer.

The simple explanation is that 911 was staged in order to facilitate foreign policy objectives that would never have gotten off the ground without some catalytic event, such as Pearl Harbour (or 911).

The BBC produced a Time Watch documentary a few years ago about Pearl Harbour you might want to check it out.

If you scroll down on this page it is available for download.
http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_miscellaneous.htm

[tcfrogs]

21. I am still not convinced of anything, other than

the BFEE looks awfully suspicious to me.

[moodforaday]

24. Slight correction

It's not necessarily "pResident Bush" letting or making IHOP. My personal hunch is he's merely a figurehead, and Cheney is pulling most strings, with Wolfowitz and other neo-cons closely behind.

Bush was electable, because he has name recognition and people somehow feel he "connects" with them. (How so many people came to believe that, I've no idea, since he's clearly detached from reality and shows absolutely no compassion or empathy - but they did.) But Bush isn't actually making the policy.

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. That's why I seldom talke about Bush, but speak of Bushco.

He's the figurehead CEO of a criminal empire, who is willing to be used by people who are smarter and more ruthless than he. He's a two-bit bully that they want the attention on because they worry about being strung up by their heels if the country ever catches on.

[titoresque]

32. oops...I meant to

vote for the second choice and voted for the first choice...so it has a small margin of error. :)

I do not understand when there is so much info out there. Also, it seems that people who believe that this war is a lie...that this bastard serial killer and his posse of murderous thugs could lie us into a war KNOWING that hundreds of thousands of people would die...but they didnt emplode the twin towers?! WTF?! noooooooo, they wouldnt do that!

Alrighty then.

[bryant69]

38. Just out of curiousity?

Do you think that's why the people who don't believe in MIHOP don't believe in it? Just because they refuse to believe Bush and his buddies are that evil?

[titoresque]

42. No

but I'm sure for some people that would be a reason. I also think that to truly come to the conclusion that your own President would do such a thing would require a person to take responsibility to inform themselves. I think most people, and Im not attacking anyone here on DU, but I would say that sadly the majority of people have so many excuses, they do not want to "look into" much. They are safer and happier knowing as little as possible. So I think most people who say that Al-CIADUH did it, or that the Prez was just incompetent are people who have not done much research.
For example, Wheres the plane at the Pentagon? That right there should raise all sorts of red flags....enough for people to "look into it" further.

[bryant69]

47. You don't have any way of knowing if they have looked into it or not

For example i could say (as I will say) that I have looked into it and have not found the arguments in favor of LIHOP or MIHOP convincing, but you don't know if I've actually looked into it or not.

[titoresque]

54. yeah I do

because I will give you benefit of doubt that you are an intelligent person.
If you had really looked into it....research, investigate a little, you would.

But if you'd like I would be happy to discuss specifics. Specifically,( if in fact you're not just playing devils advocate)what have you researched that leads you to believe Arab highjackers REALLY perp'd 9/11?

[bryant69]

77. I've noticed this as a useful response.

Puts me on the defensive doesn't it? And easier for you -rather than making your argument that MIHOP happened, you get to just shoot holes.

I will say most of it comes down to occam's razor - the arguments in favor of LIHOP and MIHOP have not been convincing, and so I don't buy them.

Bryant

[marions ghost]

45. People don't want to believe

that they live in a country where their leaders would be THAT evil. They dont want to believe they live in a corrupt country where so many people have no interest in anyone other than themselves and their cronies, and only want to exploit. They'd have to admit that their notion of democracy taught since kindergarten has been hijacked by monsters. This would shake anybody's world view. Thankfully I think some are emerging from their naive bubble, but dont expect them to admit it. They want to believe the world makes sense.

I've ask the same question about why people can't believe in widespread election theft and the answers are the same. It's too terrible, too overwhleming. Intelligent people won't even see it even when you show them the evidence for it. I've actually found 'the ignorant Sheeple' MORE willing to come out and say the election system needs fixing. They seem to find it easier to believe that leaders might be corrupt, even though they know they are locked into a system that supports them.

[H2O Man]

33. Neither but can understand

why people can and do believe in LIHOP or MIHOP.

[nookiemonster]

34. When the war drums beated for Iraq.

I was very much a believer in MIHOP on 9/11.

If anyone needs convincing:

www.newamericancentury.org

Scary place.

:scared:

[Lori Price CLG]

43. 9/11 Oddities Petition link

Petition to the Senate to Investigate Oddities Involving 9/11 Terrorist Attacks

Lori Price

[HughBeaumont]

44. MIHOPer all the way.

I can understand how people don't believe MIHOP . . . they still want to believe that their government is not evil enough to orchestrate the deaths of thousands for political and financial gain and that indeed, hundreds would have to be involved.

However, the ones who don't even believe LIHOP . . . I mean, COME on people. The evidence presented in this thread and in The Terror Timeline is just too numerous and non-coincidental to believe they knew NOTHING prior to and during the attacks. The huge put volume prior to 9/11, the FAA warnings, the wholesale belly flop by the FAA and NORAD despite being trained on this, the PDB . . .

[earth mom]

50. WOW! 81% Believe MIHOP or LIHOP...

maybe MIHOP/LIHOP isn't basement fodder after all!

:tinfoilhat:

[MercutioATC]

74. Yeah, in a 9/11 Forum on a liberal internet board...

Now THAT'S a representative sample...

...of what, I'm not sure....


:hi:

[carlvs]

76. You didn't go far enough, Mer...

You should have said "on a 9/11 forum dominated by the liberal equivalent of the right-wingers that were going around stating that former president Clinton was having his opponents murdered during his reign...":sarcasm:

[rman]

78. Well over 50% was MIHOP/LIHOP before the poll was moved from GD

-

[steve2470]

51. how about the I don't know category ?

Both LIHOP and MIHOP boggle my mind. I am open to "take-it-to-the-bank evidence" but nothing less. Both of those alternatives are so morally regugnant. However, so was Hitler.

on edit: I can believe in Let It Happen Through Incompetence and I do want a thorough investigation !!!!!!!!!!!

[mogster]

56. I did a similar survey in Norway, here's the results

The informal survey was done in a political group at a community I hang out at. Only 51 people have voted, but it may give an indication.



On edit: added link to survey:

http://blink.dagbladet.no/community/read_post.html?community_id=13410&thread_id=933953

[dogindia]

58. rock on.

imho this is massive explosive.

[pox americana]

60. MIHOP. The more you examine the evidence, the more you realize

there was nothing accidental or particularly incompetent about the demolitions of the three WTC towers. They were carefully planned and engineered in advance, including the diversionary plane crashes.

The only incompetence I see was overestimating the amount of "fire" that WTC 7 would produce when left to burn. The automatic sprinklers knocked most of it down, so the cover story ("raging inferno!") is pretty weak.

Still fooled us though.

[janedoe]

62. Don't forget the diversionary smoke.

Without that smoke, those explosions would look really obvious.
Even the smokescreen was a diversion.

Hey, with a good smokescreen, you can pretend anything is behind it -- including a "raging inferno!"

[pox americana]

63. Yes it was all very convincing.

Until you stop and think about it.

[Rich Hunt]

65. I couldn't vote

...people focus so much on Bush (he's just a figurehead) that they fail to look at the bigger picture - who benefits? What suffers as a result.

I don't think the White House works that way.

[pox americana]

68. Nobody thought Enron worked that way, either.

Surprise.

[meganmonkey]

69. I change my mind waaaay too often to pick one.

but I waver between LIHOP and MIHOP. I guess it depends on what I have been reading most recently, as well as my overall level of cynicism on a given day. I guess today I am feeling MIHOPy, so I'll vote for that. I think it was that thread with all the firefighters' transcripts. Pretty intense stuff

:scared:

[mikelewis]

70. MIHOP - I have found no evidence to suggest that a...

band of incompetent super-terrorist managed to hijack some planes and dodge our air defenses that were conveniently training for just such an act. You could never convince me that 3 planes can knock down 4 buildings. I'm actually amazed that people believe it was possible for anything to hit the Pentagon, the heart of our military, especially after the New York strike. What amazes me even more than this is watching our beloved President sitting in a chair, reading with school children when he finds out that his country is under attack. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Bush & Co. did this and used this act to justify terrible acts of aggression against others for political and economic gain. They could not let impossible acts happen but Bush & Co damn sure could have made them happen.

[JackRiddler]

79. false dichotomy & definitions

Not voting, because:

First of all, the focus on Bush: obviously he's not masterminding anything. His only role indeed is to do nothing during the attacks.

Administration members and even intellectual masterminds can only be "LIHOP," in the sense that things are done by hidden operators on their behalf. (Except perhaps for Cheney as "maestro" and Rumsfeld as the signer of the June 1st order on interceptions)

LIHOP/MIHOP is a false dichotomy. If the attacks were arranged by elements ensconced within the U.S. government (which I believe the evidence shows), some were actively facilitating, others were passively accepting, still others .

"LIHOP" was invented on THIS BOARD by Nico Haupt, who at first intended it as a way of helping Americans swallow the reality that it was a setup, whatever the details. As he became increasingly extreme in his crusade against the rest of the 9/11 truth movement, LIHOP became a curseword directed against those who are considered too wimpy because they reject certain pieces of evidence (i.e., "the pod"). It's divisive and irrelevant.

More, from an earlier comment:

Terms should be viewed flexibly. The CIA no longer exists in its old form (as the hierarchical international covert policy and mayhem arm of the Presidency). Its official covert operations units long ago became fronts for privatized networks. We are dealing with a permanent, nameless, octopoidal covert state with multiple heads. It consists of self-appointed operators who control private corporations and consider themselves to be the true government, whether or not they are in government. At any rate, they consider themselves above and beyond the law, and grew up in a culture in which this was acceptable due to the "communist threat." (Today they probably need to believe in the new enemy of Islamism as badly as the duped population does.)

They command vast resources in the form of secret budgets, profitable companies they actually own, front orgs, and contacts or "moles" with official titles at the "real" intel agencies. They have corporate and hyper-rich sponsors who consider themselves the ruling class either by birthright or by right of having accumulated vast wealth. The operators are not simple "rogue elements" but an entire society of rogue elements within a culture and system that empowers rogues.

Meanwhile...

There are real reasons men (especially) might get sufficiently enraged and fanatic to hurl their own bodies as weapons against an empire. It's irrational to simply kill civilians and think this will make anything better, but it has a certain satisfaction. There are plenty of real suicide bombers in the world.

The official story of 9/11 is curious because it doesn't involve a lone bomber or a military commando on a fast surprise attack, but a large conspiracy who live undercover among their victims for months and years in essentially technocratic roles.

The existence of real suicide bombers helps make the official 9/11 story more believable, but it doesn't mean it was true. How do we know who the 9/11 soldiers were? Hint: only because the FBI told us so, and there are obvious problems with their identities. (Reports of living men saying they had been falsely identitified as among the hijackers; admission by officials and 9/11 Commission that documents had been doctored.)

It's possible there were no hijackers. I don't believe that. I expect the majority of "patsies" are more accurately described as dupes. Meaning, they did intend to kill lots of Americans, or at any rate to hijack planes, but they didn't know they were part of a larger plot that actually subverts their nominal politics.

I think there is a very strong case for the use of remote control in steering the 9/11 planes.

Nevertheless, I believe the most robust way of pulling off 9/11 would be to take a "real" extremist plot and engineer it to fruition. This means your dupes actually intend to commit the crime and are leaving a real trail for multiple law enforcement agencies internationally to confirm their existence afterwards. The sympathizers in the Arab world can celebrate honestly, a real boost to the "war of civilizations"

These operations are compartmentalized. Imagine a whole bunch of boxes in which different elements do their own thing. They tend not to know what's going on in the other boxes. Some of these are truly covert and operate independently. Most do take orders from higher-ups who have the clearance to look into the boxes from above. The boxes are not connected only by official structures but also by networks established among their personnel.

One apparatus with law enforcement or intel functions watches the nasty characters (potential "terrorists"). Gives them enough space to develop, ostensibly so as to catch them doing something really bad. Infiltrates among them. Finds informants. Follows their plans. Can selectively protect them from discovery by other law enforcement agencies. Can arrest them or let them do their thing, depending on orders from above.

Another unit, meanwhile, can plan how to make sure that a desired attack actually succeeds. I expect this one's ensconced in the military more than intel.

A third unit might be preparing additional elements of the attack, like a demolition.

[dogindia]

80. just listened to Griffin...now Ruppert

http://www.911busters.com/

http://www.911busters.com/911_new_video_productions/MOV/DR_Griffin_Santa_Rosa_Oct_04.html

there can be no doubt. Something smells and it is not the kitty litter.
I think this is gigantic.

[undeterred]

95. There's been polling on this many times before

and the numbers of people who vote and who believe MIHOP keeps growing.

The whole truth will come out to everyone eventually.

[janedoe]

96. Today is the first day I might even believe it's possible.

You said, "The whole truth will come out to everyone eventually."
Honestly, until about an hour ago, I didn't think it would ever happen, or had negligible probability. We've been in the dark so long that it seemed the majority would become comfortable with that.

Today, I sense something has really begun changing.

(Below, I will use bogus to mean "lacking public confidence.")
You need not agree with the details. I am only noting the timing of these events. Feel free to add ones I've overlooked.

• Bogus Election (appointed, not elected) 2000
  
• 9/11 (bogus presentation and media silencing)
  
• Bogus Election 2004 (especially Ohio)
  
• Downing Street Minutes
  
• Rovegate (Valerie Plame outing)
  
• 7/7 London event
  
• The tube shooting of a guy two weeks later (we now hear was innocent, instead of the whitewash we first got)
  
• Able Danger,
  
• Cindy Sheehan... (getting louder!)
  
• Able Danger is beginning to shine a big spotlight on the bogus 9/11 Commission
  

Until this past week or so, we may have hear tiny tidbits of these stories, but not enough for the general public to remember hearing about them.
Now, the Cindy Sheehan story has been on FOX, CNN, and others, almost around the clock. And other stories have been bubbling up. Now, tonight, we're hearing the O'Reilly guy losing confidence in the 911 commission. (Gasp!)

Looking back, just this week, it appears that the media is working it's way up that list, in reverse order. Right now, FOX just switch from telling us, openly, that the guy killed in the tube shooting was completely innocent. (exposing the cover-up!) Now FOX is covering Able Danger. "What did they know, and when did they know it" (referring to 9/11). We're even hearing about something fishy in the Ohio vote count!

Could it be that we are beginning to get our media back?
I see a ton of momentum, picking up speed, fast.

There's only one thing that can stop it now, another "9/11." Hopefully, the Camp Casey crowd is keeping a good watch on who's coming and going. i.e. babysitting/surveillance, with the media's eyes looking on.

[spooked911]

98. Yes-- there is always reason for hope.

I've tended to think that the media will wake up and the Bush administration will go down BUT we will never get the complete truth on 9/11 or any of this other stuff.

They'll get Bushco for something stupid (e.g. Plame-gate) and then pretend justice has been done.

[Sterling]

99. Kick

nt

[Jon Gold]

101. STOP WITH THE LABELING

Both LIHOP and MIHOP can co-exist. In my experience, LIHOP eventually turns into MIHOP anyway.

A lot of people have a hard time accepting that our Government would have a hand in it. It's until they see all of the evidence that they eventually follow suit.

I just think of my own experience with 9/11. At first, I wanted to carpet bomb the entire Middle East. Then, I started to see the reactions of our Government, and although I originally agreed with the idea of invading Afghanistan, I now know it was wrong.

Then I saw how the families had to fight for the creation of the Commission... Because the Bush Administration opposed it. It's not rocket science at the point. "Hmmm... what are they trying to hide.", and generally at that point, most people are "off to the races" as they say.

Other people research differently, and other people require different amounts of information. They get to a certain point in their research where they've been convinced, and make a decision that the truth must be told. For some, it's a different point than others. For others, we have to know everything.

The point is... just because someone isn't as far along as someone else in their research, doesn't mean we can chastize them. As I said, most LIHOP turn to MIHOP eventually. It's about having patience with other people around you. We don't have to get along, and we don't even have to like each other. We do, however, have to have a common goal, and that has ALWAYS been absolute truth, and absolute accountability. No matter where it leads.

[Tim Howells]

102. I agree

Good post. There is a big grey area between LIHOP and MIHOP.
As you say, most people start out on the LIHOP side and
move further and further towards MIHOP as they learn more
and more about the case.

Tim Howells

[HughBeaumont]

103. COIN-OP

Collectively Orchestrated It Nefariously . . .On Purpose.

Don't even THINK for one second that 3000 deaths means anything but anal vapor to these bastards. There's money to be made and eternal wars to be fought, and the little people WILL fight them and the little people WILL fund them. Sociopathic fascists care little about what you think. If they say that the COINOP theory is fantasy - it's fantasy whether it happened or not.

You can HARDLY blame it on incompetence. TOO much to suggest that the corporations, the BA and others didn't know this was going to happen.

[petgoat]

104. COIN-OP

If the world is running out of oil (as Chevron is starting to suggest
in TV and magazine ads) we can expect some major adjustments will be
necessary to our economy and our way of life. Who was in a better
position to know about this than people with oil industry connections
like the Bush cabal?

Under the circumstances, it's possible for thoughtful and patriotic
men of a certain ideological bent to conclude that seizing the oil
fields was a necessary evil in order to protect the only pure
capitalist society and liberal democracy itself. I don't regard this
view as unreasonable--simply as immoral and wrong. Mike Ruppert says
that 60% of the oil reserves are in a territory the size of Kansas,
and Iraq is right in the middle of it. Its oil is very close to the
surface and can be produced for $1 a barrel.

I was repulsed by the "No Blood for Oil" slogan because I could not
imagine our leaders could be so evil as to wage war for profit. But
lately I've come to understand that this is not about profit but about
control of the resource. The ideologues can indulge in very
high-minded rationales--it's necessary so that government of the
people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish! (And if
by "the people" they mean the top 5%, in their minds that's mere
quibbling, and since our intentions in "liberating" Afghanistan and
Iraq were honorable, these aggressive wars were at worst only a mistake.)

Staging 9/11 (if that's what they did) was obviously where they
crossed the line into inhuman lunacy. I can't help thinking that
what's in Bush's mind in that schoolroom when Andrew Card whispers in
his ear and his eyes go all funny is: "Oh my God, they said they were
going to do it and they actually did it!"

[HughBeaumont]

105. "Everything's going according to plan, sir."

"History will remember you as a champion . . . just like your father."

Boy, they miscalculated greatly on that one, didn't they?

But it really IS all about the black gold. Didn't Kissinger once say that "oil is too precious a commodity to be in the hands of Arabs"?

[rman]

107. "not about profit"

It's not that control of resources doesn't benefit them.

Granted though that profit is no so much a goal in itself; it's about control (of pretty much everything), and profit is a means to that end. After all, power and wealth go hand in hand.