Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Summary of NIST’s Estimate of Interior Damage to South Tower

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU
 
Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 02:57 PM
Original message
Summary of NIST’s Estimate of Interior Damage to South Tower
Taken from: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1Draft.pdf

“33 exterior columns severed, 1 heavily damaged.
10 core columns severed, 1 heavily damaged.
39 of 47 core columns stripped of insulation on one or more floors.
Insulation stripped from trusses covering 80,000 ft2 of floor area.”
Page 41/95

Although only 10 core columns were severed, most of them were severed on more than one floor.

What does NIST think severed the core columns? Did any elements of the aircraft retain the ability to sever core columns after smashing through the perimeter wall?

Wingtips
As can be seen from Figure 3-2 on page 39/93 South Face Damage of WTC 2 the wingtips were unable to even sever the perimeter columns. Having been diced on the perimeter, they could hardly sever or cause heavy damage to core columns.

Engines
Regarding a simulation performed on an engine, NIST said, “Moving at 500 mph, an engine broke any exterior column it hit. If the engine missed the floor slab, the majority of the engine core remained intact and had enough residual momentum to sever a core column upon direct impact.
Page 105/159
Note the use of the word “if” in the second sentence. This means that if an engine hit a floor slab, it would not have enough residual energy to sever a core column, even upon direct impact. Note the use of the word “a” in the last clause; “a” means one, not nine.

Inner Wing
Regarding simulations performed on wings, NIST said, “The impact of the inner half of an empty wing significantly damaged exterior columns but did not result in their complete failure. Impact of the same wing section, but filled with fuel, did result in failure of the exterior columns.”
Page 105/159
However, once the wings hit the perimeter, the fuel would escape, greatly reducing the wing’s ability to sever core columns. This ability would be further reduced by the loss of speed and mechanical damage caused by the impact against the perimeter columns.

Fuselage
The heavier, lower part of the fuselage may also have retained the ability to sever core columns after breaking through the perimeter.

Let’s turn to the conclusions of the NIST’s computer model of the overall damage to the interior of the South Tower and see how they match up with the component-level simulations.

“The middle of the left wing hit the 78th floor, severing nine perimeter columns and breaking 19 windows on the south face. The SFRM was stripped from the floor trusses over the same width as the building core. The stripping of insulation from the trusses continued inward across the tenant space and about two thirds of the way into the core. There was no direct core column damage from the debris on this floor. However, the southeast corner core column was so damaged on the 80th floor that it broke at its splices on the 77th and 83rd floors.” Page 40/94
The insulation was “stripped”, not damaged. Stripped appears to mean removed in its entirety, at least for the purposes of the computer simulation of the ensuing fire damage. It is unusual that the “SFRM was stripped from the floor trusses over the same width as the building core” because the heavy damage to the building begins several feet inside the western end of the core. It is also unusual that the lightweight wingtip debris were able to strip insulation from around two-thirds of the core. NIST appears to have something against the large southeast corner column, which it has broken in four places.

“There was heavier column damage to the 79th floor. The left engine and the inboard section of the left wing shattered a 25ft section of the center of the floor slab all the way to the core of the building and severed 15 perimeter columns. Reaching the building core, the debris severed nine columns, heavily damaged another, and abraded the SFRM from the eastern two thirds of the columns and trusses all the way to the north end of the core.”
If you look at Figure 3-2 on page 39/93, you can see that the left engine hit the floor slab smack in the middle. Given that, according to the component-level analyses, a wing could not sever a column without being full of fuel, which it was not when it hit the core, and that an engine could only sever a core column it hit directly provided it did not previously hit a floor slab, I am puzzled as to why NIST thinks 9 core columns were severed on this floor. The component-level analyses indicate zero would be a more reasonable figure.

“The damage was most severe on the 80th and 81st floors, hit directly be the fuselage. On the lower floor, a chunk of the floor slab was broken, just above the affected piece of the 79th floor. In addition, a 70ft deep strip along the east side of the core floor was crushed. The north side floor slab sagged along its eastern end. Ten of the perimeter columns severed on the 79th floor were displaced here also. Within the building core, ten columns were severed, including many that were severed on the 79th floor. The SFRM was stripped not only from the eastern two thirds of the core structural elements, nearly to the north wall, but also from most of the trusses of the east tenant space, all the way to the north façade.”
You can see which ten columns were severed by looking at Figure 3-3 Aircraft Impact Damage on page 40/94. It seems that some columns may have been heavily damaged or severed by the plane’s fuselage (the heavier lower portion of which would have hit this floor), but 10 seems to be an overestimate, especially when we consider that 4-6 of the columns which were supposedly severed were not in the path of the fuselage and that some columns were protected by others. Again, the amount of insulation stripped from members is remarkable.

“On the 81st floor, the fuselage pulverized a section of the floor 40ft wide that extended into the southeast corner of the core. The SFRM and gypsum fire protection on the full depth of the east side of the core and in the entire east side of the tenant space was stripped. The structural damage to the core columns was limited to near the southeast corner, but as mentioned above, the impulses felt here caused damage to the key corner column all the way down to the 78th floor. The right engine passed all the way through the 81st floor, exited from the northeast corner, and damaged the roof of a building on Church Street, before coming to rest some 1,500ft northeast of WTC 2 near the corner of Murray and Church Streets. The right landing gear assembly passed through the 81st floor at the east side of the north face and landed near the engine on the roof of a building in Park Place.
Note that the engine passed through this floor and the extensive damage to fireproofing that NIST thinks occurred.

“The right engine caused truss damage up to the southeast corner of the core and severed five columns. As on the 81st floor, the fire protection on the east side of the tenant space and the east side of the core was dislodged.
This is somewhat confusing. To which floor does it refer? Given that it’s between the paragraphs about floors 81 and 83, it should be about floor 82. However, what is the right engine, which we last encountered “some 1,500 ft northeast of WTC 2 near the corner of Murray and Church Streets”, doing here? I checked, the plane had only one right engine. Figure 3-2 South Face Damage on page 39/93 shows that the engine hit the floor 82 floor slab, but it seems it only caught it a glancing blow and proceeded across floor 81 to the corner of Murray and Church Streets. Perhaps a fragment of it was severed by the floor impact and ended up on the 82nd floor. The five columns appear to be perimeter, not core columns. Again, NIST got rid of lots of fireproofing on this floor.

“The 83rd floor caught the middle of the starboard wing. The east side floor slab appeared to be dislodged and sagged at least half of the way into the building.

Interesting, eh?

By the way, NIST claims that the collapse of WTC 2 was a direct result of the impact damage to the core, not the fires, which played a secondary role here, unlike in WTC 1. NIST says, “Several factors led to the collapse of WTC 2: Direct structural damage from the aircraft impact, which included more severe damage to the core columns than in WTC 1;” and “That the aircraft impact damage to the core was more severe in WTC 2 than in WTC 1 contributed to the shorter time of collapse.” Page 45/99

One question keeps nagging at me: if NIST ran their simulation with a more reasonable estimate of damage to the core columns and fireproofing, how much longer than 56 minutes would the building stand?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
pox americana Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good call. "10 core columns severed, 1 heavily damaged" my fanny.
2 engines = 2 core columns "severed," POSSIBLY. But I really doubt it.

And how is anything going to "sever" 9 wide-flange steel columns, possibly cased in concrete, without heavily damaging them? Total bunkum.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. True enough-- they have to be pulling these numbers out of their asses
It's extremely hard to believe more core columns were severed in the south tower than the north-- when the north tower was hit in the center (basically) whereas we all saw the plane hit the south tower and almost go all the way through. Only the wing of the plane would have impacted the south tower core much, and it's hard to see it severing more than a couple of columns.

In fact-- that was the ORIGINAL estimate from an MIT study I saw -- that there were 10-15 columns severed in the north tower and just one or two in the south.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pox americana Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Silver bird meets iron forest, forest falls.
I don't think so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. MIT
Edited on Tue Aug-23-05 12:33 AM by Kevin Fenton
Don't suppose you have a link for the MIT study?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. here:
Edited on Tue Aug-23-05 07:59 AM by spooked911
http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/

I believe chapter 4 is the one of interest, although it looks as though my recollection was wrong about the number of columns in north versus south. That must have been another link I saw a long time back.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Christ on a bike!
Look at chapter 3!
It's all about the speeds of the planes as they impacted. It contains a very detailed discussion of the impact velocities and comes up with numbers of 429 mph for the North Tower (NIST's estimates used the figures 443 and 472) and 503 for the South Tower (NIST's estimates used the figures 542 and 570). Has NIST being bumping up these estimates, too?

btw, He says he got the based his estimate of American 77 on impact on "information contained in the recovered flight data recorder" and cites Civil Engineering as his source for this!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. They don't know the actual dimensions of the core columns!
so their conclusions are very mushy:
"Depending which case considered in Table 2 will be valid, the number of destroyed core columns in South Tower will vary between minimum of 7 and maximum of 20. It should be noted that the prediction for the North Tower would be different for two reasons. First, the impact velocity is smaller and hence the kinetic energy induced by the airplane is less. Second, the airplane impacted the tower on different side correlating with the core structure orientation, so that the energy dissipated by these longer floors was larger. Taking the each of the factors above into consideration, the predicted number of damaged core columns in the North Tower will vary between 4 and 12. There will be an enormous difference between the ways in which the global collapse was initiated in both towers."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Slabs
There's also the question of what happens when an engine smacks straight into floor slab - which happened to United 175's left engine. A range of between 7 and 20 columns is crazy. How did they get these results? By playing pin the tail on the donkey? The NIST core column estimate is certainly better than the MIT one.

However, I'm not so sure the same is true of the plane speed - I briefly compared Chapter Three of the MIT study to the part of one of the other NIST reports that deals with the plane speed in more detail and the MIT study (which is slower) might be more accurate. However, I'm not entirely sure of this because there are some technical issues (like how transferring to and from PAL affects the speed of a plane recorded by a videocamera) that I don't fully understand yet (and may never do to be honest).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. How long until
the CT crowd wants people to believe a jet traveling at somewhere around 500 mph, weighing at least 200,000 lba, should have just bounced off the outer perimeter columns?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Seems like something bouced! and some a long way!
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER THOMAS FlTZPATRlCK FDNY

CAPTAIN MICHAEL DONOVAN FDNY WTC2 2nd plane hits

We were actually still on Church Street. We heard the plane briefly, the earth shook, the buildings shook, a tremendous fireball overhead.
I thought there was a bomb or an explosion. A tremendous fireball, flaming debris, pieces of the airplane, fuselage, landing gear,

FIRE PATROLMAN PAUL CURRAN fuselage of plane on Vessey St

I parked the rig on Church right at Fulton, directly in front of the World Trade north plaza. My officer told us we're going to go into the north tower lobby. We proceeded down to Vesey. Walking down Vesey, we noticed large pieces of what looked like possibly the fuselage from the plane. There was a caravan of motorcycle police coming up. We stopped them and we cleared the path of big O rings and pieces of fuselage of the plane. We threw it to the side, and we told the guys to go on. They went up towards Church

BATTALION CHIEF BRIAN DIXON FDNY piece of a plane
I continued down Liberty, just west of 10 and 10. As I got down a little farther, there was what looked to be a piece of the cabin of the airplane, I guess. It looked like a piece of it about maybe six foot long. It looked like the windows.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER JAMES DRURY FDNY airplane debris

(Vessey & Church) You could see airplane parts on the ground and although I didn't realize it at the time, I later realized there were body parts, both on the concourse and on the street. (some of these might have been jumpers) I now made a left on Vesey and walked down
the street on the 7 World Trade Center side, where I could see more airplane debris

EMS CAPTAIN FRANK DAMATO

I parked my car on West Street, right around near, right about, right at the -- almost to the exit of where the Battery Tunnel empties out.
Then actually when I found my car, I found my car like later, later on in the day, but I left it there, because it was not able to be moved because it was covered. There was an airplane tire about 10 feet away from it.

Various pieces of the plane were falling on the street. As we went down the street you could see parts of aircraft with stencil numbers on it and things like that. There was a wheel, or like a wheel housing or something else there in the street.

CAPTAIN RAY GOLDBACH
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110150.PDF
it was Dey or Cortlandt Street. We walked down
that block. It was littered with airplane parts,
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Sounds to me like most of the
transcripts speak about debris that went through the building not bounced off it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. This debris is on the north side. Are you saying it thus is from WTC2?
Edited on Fri Aug-26-05 07:27 AM by philb
And why would anyone take anything in the 9/11 Commission Report
seriously? It clearly was a bogus report aimed at cover-up,
not trying to be factually accuarate. This has been well documented.

There was an airplane engine in the back of a SUV, with driver in front apparently surviving. What type of engine was this? And which plane did it come from?
See my WTC2 plane thread.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. The story you posted is about WTC2
There are videos showing objects exiting the North side.

Why is this mysterious to you?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Plane speed
NIST's estimates are 542 mph and 570 mph. You said "around 500 mph". Are you saying you think NIST's estimates are a little on the high side, or do you think 542 mph and 570 mph can be regarded as "around 500 mph"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I was too lazy to look up the numbers
but I knew it was near 500
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
14. WTC2 wasn't total collapse; some in lobby survived; and not in core
LIEUTENANT ROBERT LAROCCO

survivor of WCT2 collapse who was in Lobby when it fell p20

Just as I put my foot on the first stair on the escalator, the building started like shaking. It was like a wave in the floor and a real loud noise. What we did was, me and the police officer started running from the east northeast end of the building toward the west. Anyway, just to describe to you the collapse of the south tower coming down, I really
wasn't aware there was a full collapse. I thought it might have been just a localized collapse. It was the loudest noise I've ever
heard in my life. It was in both ears. Kind of like those rockets that they launch the space shuttles with, it was like I had one going off in
each ear. When I thought it was the loudest noise I ever heard, every second it was just increasing getting louder and louder and louder.
I was running as fast as I could. With this noise getting louder and louder, also what's happening simultaneously was light -- whatever
light we had was becoming darkness, like obscuring and getting dark fast, like someone pulling down the shades real fast. Anyway, it kind of sounded to me as if the collapse was aimed right at me, right at my back. I was running as fast as I could, and when I felt that I was getting overtaken by the collapse, where there was no hope, I threw myself on my knees at the next concrete column that I came up against I kept that on my right side. With that the collapse came and I started getting buried. Stuff was falling down. It was loud and just kept coming and coming.

(This was covered by some major media articles- see angel story
apparently this firefighter was the angel referenced. )


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. What does parts of lobby of WTC2 surviving imply? Why did it not get
crushed? What was the construction that saved these survivors?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Dec 26th 2024, 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC