Incoming FDNY chaplain questions 9/11 story

[DoYouEverWonder]

September 30, 2005

An imam slated to be sworn in Friday as the second Muslim chaplain in Fire Department history said he questioned whether 19 hijackers were responsible for the Sept. 11 terror attacks, and suggested a broader conspiracy may have brought down the Twin Towers and killed more than 2,700 people.

In a telephone interview Thursday, Imam Intikab Habib, 30, a native of Guyana who studied Islam in Saudi Arabia, said he doubted the United States government's official story blaming 19 hijackers associated with al-Quaida and Osama bin Laden.

"I as an individual don't know who did the attacks," said Habib, 30, a soft-spoken man who immigrated to New York in July 2000 after spending six years in Saudi Arabia getting a degree in Islamic theology and law. "There are so many conflicting reports about it. I don't believe it was 19 ... hijackers who did those attacks."

Asked to elaborate on his reasons for doubting that story, he talked about video and news reports widely disseminated in the Muslim community.

"I've heard professionals say that nowhere ever in history did a steel building come down with fire alone," he said. "It takes two or three weeks to demolish a building like that. But it was pulled down in a couple of hours. Was it 19 hijackers who brought it down, or was it a conspiracy?"

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/newyork/politics/nyc-imam0930,0,1194936.story?coll=nyc-homepage-breakingheadlines

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Very much what others think

but I wonder if, because of his faith, he'll be condemned for his opinions.

[opihimoimoi]

2. Its an opinion.....

[Systematic Chaos]

3. I'm sure the fundies will decide he's a Hugh moran directly.

I, however, find his honesty and forthrightness to be a breath of fresh air. :)

[PsychoDad]

20. Yes Indeed.

The brother says he dosen't know, but has his doubts. Pretty much the way I and many others feel.

The offical story seemed too quick and pat, left many, many unanswered questions.

Peace.

[keopeli]

4. I love a healthy alternative perspective!

[tk2kewl]

5. It was the cover story...

[speedingbullet]

6. conspiracy

I read the linked story. Still not sure what he is saying. Is he is saying that the conspiracy is more than the 19 guys on the planes or is he saying there were no 19 guys on the planes? Obviously there were more than the guys on the planes involved. Like that guy named Bin Laden.

[tk2kewl]

10. yeah... it wasn't very clear

it's not news if he means that Al-Qeda is more than 19 guys, so I assume he means something more

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

7. The world sure is full of stupid people. n/t

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tk2kewl]

9. LOL

:D

[Podface]

11. we will never know

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

12. Har Har...

So nutjob christian = bad.
Nutjob muslim = good.

I'm glad we have such uniform standards for these things.

[MadHound]

14. No friend, it is just nutjobs period that we consider bad

Doesn't make any difference what religion they are.

This chaplain is speaking truth to power, good for him. There are entirely too many loose ends and strange happenings that surround 9/11 to simply explain them away by the "19 hijackers" tale. Perhaps you would care to enlighten us on how those 19 hijackers managed to keep the NORAD planes down that day, in contridiction to long standing orders? Or how those same 19 hijackers were able to put in "put" orders for UA stock, through a former CIA agent none the less? Or how those same 19 hijackers were able to pull not one, not two, but three steel structures virtually straight down, even though there never before had been a single steel structure that collapsed due to fire, and that it is virtually impossible to pull even one building straight down without demolition experts and placed charges. Yet that day, it happened three times. Hardly coincidence, don't you think?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

15. Oh yay, more fun.

This chaplain is speaking truth to power, good for him.

Pardon? Because it looks to me as if he's spewing unsubstantiated bullshit.

There are entirely too many loose ends and strange happenings that surround 9/11 to simply explain them away by the "19 hijackers" tale.

Yes, I'm well aware of the idiocy that's been concocted in the minds of the various paranoid delusional blogtards and then regularly cited in that-forum-which-dare-not-speak-its-name.

Or how those same 19 hijackers were able to put in "put" orders for UA stock, through a former CIA agent none the less?

You know, the drunk guy who occasionally passes out in our car park swears that this building used to be a front for MI-6, due to our having security cameras.

Or how those same 19 hijackers were able to pull not one, not two, but three steel structures virtually straight down, even though there never before had been a single steel structure that collapsed due to fire, and that it is virtually impossible to pull even one building straight down without demolition experts and placed charges. Yet that day, it happened three times. Hardly coincidence, don't you think?

Let me guess - you're a structural engineer. Because if you're not, then you have no credibility on this subject.

[MadHound]

30. Ahh, what a typical response

You can't answer the questions surrounding 911, the questions that not only I, not only conspiracy theorists, but questions posed by experts in their respective fields, market analysts, defense experts, and yes, structural engineers. Instead, you resort to personal attacks and insults in a vain attempt at diversion that fools nobody. Real classy of you friend, and also very telling.

So I tell you what friend, get back to me when you have actual answers to the questions that I've posed(questions that have in fact been posed by experts in these fields, including structural engineers) Answering with ad hominems and attacks simply confuses the issue, and obscures the truth. But hey, perhaps that is your objective anyway:shrug:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

33. ANSWERING with ad hominems?

This entire sub-thread started with me calling the chaplain "stupid" and then someone calling me "stupid." The quality of debate has increased since that time.

the questions that not only I, not only conspiracy theorists, but questions posed by experts in their respective fields, market analysts, defense experts, and yes, structural engineers.



And I have no patience for people who don't understand controlled demolitions talking about controlled demolitions as if they have clue fucking one of what it's about. Fuck, you can't even do google searches for information on controlled demolition any more without being confronted by a bunch of immature gibberish written by nonprofessionals, distributed amongst themselves ad nauseum, regurgitated as fact, excreted, its feces smeared over countless blogs and forums.

Look, nobody with any standing in the fields of controlled demolition or structural engineering has EVER subscribed to this idiotic interperetation of events. No peer-reviewed journal has ever published a paper that supports conclusions that are significantly different than those reached by the multiple inquiries performed by various government and university bodies wrt how the towers fell. Your argument smacks of the "some people say" BULLSHIT that right-wingers use to propogate their selfsame UN black helicopter crackpot gibberish.

And if any of the people here who moronically say "controlled demolition makes the building fall straight down" knew what they were fucking talking about, they'd realise that the primary goal of any controlled demolition is to make a building fall into its own footprint without damaging adjascent structures like, for instance, WTC 7. I'm interested to know about this magical force that makes buildings fall sideways. So would the rest of the physics world.

Good day.

[MadHound]

39. Your bluff and bluster doesn't cover the fact

That you have absolutely no evidence, nor experience to back your happy ass up with. Are you an expert in any of the fields in question? Do you know any such experts or talked with them? Somehow I doubt it.

I on the other hand have, on multiple occassions, with multiple people. My work, both past and present, brings me into contact with not only structural engineers, demolitionists, market analysts, economists, and even the odd former NORAD staff member. And yes friend, they have the same questions I do, and I find their expertise to be much more valuable than some anonymous keyboard character assasian who is obviously blowing smoke out of his ass.

But hey, this sort of thing is to be expected. After all, the pattern was set with the Kennedy assasination. Those who questioned the official scenario were labeled as crackpots and conspiracy theorists, but they just plugged away asking the tough questions. And they were finally vindicated in 1979 when the government did officially declare that the Kennedy assasination was indeed the result of a conspiracy.

So if you have any actual substance to add to this discussion, please spill it. If not, then we will have to agree to disagree on this one, and wait to see what the future brings.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

50. Enough!

Do you know any such experts or talked with them?

Actually, yes I do. And rest assured that they, who definitely know their shit, are every bit as amused by this nonsense as I.

I on the other hand have, on multiple occassions, with multiple people. My work, both past and present, brings me into contact with not only structural engineers, demolitionists, market analysts, economists, and even the odd former NORAD staff member.

Congratulations.


So if you have any actual substance to add to this discussion, please spill it. If not, then we will have to agree to disagree on this one, and wait to see what the future brings.

I haven't seen any substance on your side of the discussion. The evidence and reports to which I am referring are well-known. I'm not going to do your homework for you. And I'm not the one proposing ludicrous ideas and then demanding that people pay attention to them as though they had the same validity as peer-reviewed science.

[MadHound]

51. LOL, you are funny and amusing to boot, but a horrible tap dancer

Your missteps are telling, as is your refusal to post anything to back yourself up with. That's OK friend, it is all still quite amusing. So I suppose that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one, OK. I really don't feel like rehashing points that I've gone over, and provided facts and sources for, with you again.

But hey, by all means, keep on throwing your ideas around out there, the gullible as we have seen will continue to buy all sorts of BS, even that which has been disproven time and again.

[grahamhgreen]

49. "Timber!"

[iconoclastNYC]

40. Where is your credibility

You must have a PHD in baseless inflamatory attacks, thats for sure.

[TheWraith]

45. Your "experts" must not be very bright.

I'm not a structural engineer, but I can still explain in simple terms how the collapse had to happen. The Twin Towers each had an outer "skin" layer of steel supports, combined with an inner grid of steel beams at the center of the building. When the plane crashed into the building, its jet fuel caught on fire. Over a period of some minutes, the burning jet fuel created a furnace inside the building, which caused the central grid of supports to soften. When the sections near the impact area lost enough tensile strength, the center of the upper floors began to collapse, effectively tearing the outer skin down as it went. As has already been noted, objects fall down, as dictated by gravity. I'm sure that if the building had fallen on its side, that would also be viewed as evidence of conspiracy.

By the way, it's a display of ignorance to refer to "NORAD planes." NORAD is the North American Aerospace Defense Command, under Cheyanne Mountain Colorado. NORAD coordinates air defense operations for the Air Force, STRATCOM, and others. It's not an airbase, and the planes don't belong to them.

As for planes not being in the air, you've obviously never met the Bush administration. Allow me to introduce you: they're incompetant. Very incompetant. In fact, I can't remember a single thing they have not fucked up, and I don't see why air defense would be any different.

Suspicious stock activity... hmm. I simply can't think of any multimillionaire terrorists who happened to know that the attack was coming--oh. Wait.

Simply put, most of the "information" traded amongst the conspiracist community is simply unfounded assertions, incorrect facts, and paranoid ideations, spread in the hope that others will except it as truth without engaging critical thinking.

[MadHound]

54. Then gee Wally, explain to me in simple terms

How a fire, with a max possible temperature(remember, this is jet fuel, essentially refined kerosene) of 900F can even come close to the needed temperature of 1100F to begin to weaken said structural steel. Also remember that the WTC was built to strict NYC fire codes, which mandate that both towers be finished with fire retardent materials, including carpets, drapes, wall coverings, etc. even to the point that each and every single steel beam be covered with a fire retarding foam like material. Explain to me why, if the fire was such a roaring inferno as you claim, the firefighters on the scene were only calling for three lines for each fire. I'm used to be a fireman, and if you are only calling for three lines, I don't care if they're three inchers, that means that the fire is, can and will be controlled. Also explain to me why such a roaring inferno(as you claim) was pouring out thick black smoke, a sure sign of a fire that is being smothered. And lastly, explain how not just one, not two, but three seperate buildings, damaged in three distinct ways, at three different times all fell virtually straight down into their own footprint. I'll be waiting for that one, since it is a coincedence that has baffled every single engineer that I've spoken with. It is something that is simply unprecendented.

And as far as the planes go, it is a standing order that there are planes on standby at all times, ready to take off in case of some strange odd aerial event. Remember Payne Stewart? When his plane first diverted off course, fighters were up there beside him literally within minutes, and accompanied him until the plane went down. Yet it wasn't until after the planes all crashed did our air defense show up on 911. Why? Who gave the order to for them to stand down? This isn't as trivial as you would like to make it friend, this is a serious breach of the chain, and an outright violation of a standing order. Do you understand how significant that is?

As far as the put orders go, don't you find it the least bit odd that when they started doing the forensic market analysis on them, they traced them back to a former CIA agent, and once they did, they dropped the investigation cold?

Look friend, if you wish to continue to believe the official story, that's fine, perhaps it brings you comfort, or you simply can't grasp the concept of our government attacking its own people. That doesn't mean it can't, and doesn't happen. Many many people were in your shoes concerning the Kennedy assasination also, simply unable to wrap their head around the concept of a conspiracy. But eventually it was shown that the Kennedy assasination was indeed a conspiracy, and I'm sure, given time, 9/11 will be shown to be a LIHOP/MIHOP also. It is simply a matter of time. Until then, we will have to agree to disagree on this one and go our merry ways.

[StrafingMoose]

24. Why do you make up arguments?

I had yet to see any in his argumentation a comparison between Muslim and Christian... Why are you talking about that?

Is this what the official conspiracy theory told you to do? Create yourself arguments so you can beleive it?

I mean, the official story spewed from two mouths, and two mouths only. Richard Clarke and George Tenet -- that's it. They never brought that white paper Powell promised us not long after 9/11. They didn't even give it to NATO!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

34. What "official story?"

I'm still waiting for someone to hand me this mythical document that contains the white house's version of 9/11. I suppose the commision report comes as close as anything to an "official" story, but going back - again, if you knew ANYTHING about the process and how the investigations of the collapse of the towers was conducted, you'd realize that there was a lot of back-and-forth going on in the structural engieering community as a whole until all of the data came out, and then a conclusion (which is generally accepted by the community) was reaced independently by a number of different groups.

That's not an "official" story, and calling it that is wrong and misinformed.

As for the other hoo-ha, I really could care less.

[StrafingMoose]

48. re...

If you don't think this is not the official story, then I wonder what it is...

As for the way these tower collapsed, I have to admit it isn't my biggest concern about the official story. Anyways, I think the 9-11 Commission didn't even touch the issues of the 3 different collapses, it was later done by NIST. (Which I beleive is a federal agency)

[PsychoDad]

25. So, the man is a nutjob because he has his doubts....

About the official story from this administration about 9/11 ?

Maybe if more democratic senators had their doubts about the truthfulness of this administration's claims of Iraqi WMD we would have avoided a war and nearly 2000 american dead.

Maybe if more democratic senators had their doubts about the intentions of this administration the patriot act wouldn't have been passed.

This administration has lied to us over and over. Everything that comes from it should be challenged.

We need more nutjobs and less sheep, particularly in public office.

America, where personal honesty is considered nutjobbery and bold face lying gains you the highest public office.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

35. What official story?

Read my other post. The structural engineering, controlled demolition and physics communities do not answer to George fucking Bush. What you say is an uninformed slur against them.

And yes, he's "stupid" for talking about structural engineering without understanding anything about it. Or maybe ignorant. Wilfully ignorant.

[PsychoDad]

44. IIRC, Questions have been raised

By people with knowledge of structural engineering and controlled demolition. Perhaps someone else here has a link to those.

But perhaps you are correct, what are your qualifications, and why do you think there are no questions left to be answered. I would be very interested in hearing a qualified opinion from an expert in one of these fields.

Thanks in advance.

[iconoclastNYC]

41. Bravo. So well put.

We live in fake times. Question everything.

[Mizmoon]

19. That insult was uncalled for

:thumbsdown:

[QC]

23. Playground discourse is the norm here, unfortunately. n/t

[dhinojosa]

27. I agree. YibbeHobba shouldn't have called the chaplain stupid.

Shame shame

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

36. His ignorance was uncalled for.

His statement is an insult to the scientific community. This is no better than Pat Robertson saying that Jesus killed New Orleans. There's about the same amount of evidence for both positions.

The only problem is that for some reason people are giving this guy more legitimacy that Pat.

[dhinojosa]

26. LMAO...Ouch!

[northzax]

13. well duh

everyone knows it was the Mossad working on behalf of the Trilateral commission, upset because too much of the global trade was going through the towers, instead of Goldman, Sachs, which everyone knows is just a front and the moneymen for a global zionist conspiracy. right? that's why all the Jews were told to stay home that day.

oh crap, did I just write that? now they'll come after me for leaking the secret information from the newsletter.

[jsamuel]

16. surprised to see this in the news... are they actually reporting this now?

[NFL80]

17. He resigned today. n/t

[DoYouEverWonder]

29. How could he resign

if he hadn't been sworn in yet?

[NFL80]

32. Imam resigns as incoming FDNY chaplain after report

From Newsday:

BY CAROL EISENBERG
STAFF WRITER

September 30, 2005, 12:04 PM EDT

An imam slated to be sworn in today as the second Muslim chaplain in Fire Department history, instead resigned after making controversial remarks on the Sept. 11 attacks in an interview with Newsday.

"The Fire Department this morning received the resignation of Imam Intikab Habib from his position of FDNY Chaplain," said FDNY Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta. "Based on comments he made to Newsday, Imam Intikab Habib would have been unable to effectively serve in the role he was appointed to."

"I did not want to (resign), but it was best for the department," Habib told NY1 today.

In a telephone interview Thursday, Habib, 30, a native of Guyana who studied Islam in Saudi Arabia, said he questioned whether 19 hijackers were responsible for the Sept. 11 terror attacks, and suggested a broader conspiracy may have brought down the Twin Towers and killed more than 2,700 people.

He said he doubted the United States government's official story blaming 19 hijackers associated with al-Quaida and Osama bin Laden.

"I, as an individual, don't know who did the attacks," said Habib, 30, a soft-spoken man who immigrated to New York in July 2000 after spending six years in Saudi Arabia getting a degree in Islamic theology and law. "There are so many conflicting reports about it. I don't believe it was 19 ... hijackers who did those attacks."

Asked to elaborate on his reasons for doubting that story, he talked about video and news reports widely disseminated in the Muslim community.

"I've heard professionals say that nowhere ever in history did a steel building come down with fire alone," he said. "It takes two or three weeks to demolish a building like that. But it was pulled down in a couple of hours. Was it 19 hijackers who brought it down, or was it a conspiracy?"

Questioned about who he believed was responsible for the attacks, Habib said he didn't know. He said, however, that he did not expect to raise his doubts with rank-and-file firefighters -- nor did he share them two weeks ago when he participated in several Sept. 11 memorials on behalf of the Fire Department.

"My position as a chaplain is that whoever did it, it's a tragic incident," he said. "I feel sorrow for the families who lost loved ones and for the firefighters who died in it. Whoever did it, it was a very wrong thing. It's always wrong to take an innocent human life."

Yesterday, a spokesman for the Fire Department, Frank Gribbon, said that Habib was recommended by the department's Islamic Society and was hired "based on his credentials as a religious person. We don't ask new employees about their political views before we hire them."

Stephen Cassidy, president of the Uniformed Firefighters Association, could not be reached for comment yesterday.

Habib's remarks about the attacks came in response to questions about whether he thought firefighters would accept a chaplain who had been educated in Saudi Arabia.

He said he did not expect that to be an issue because "I come from a country where you're accustomed to living with people of different ethnic, religious and racial backgrounds."

When pressed further about whether the hijackers' backgrounds -- 15 of whom were Saudi -- might make his training an issue for still-grieving firefighters, he went on to express his own doubts about the hijacker story.

Habib was one of several imams recommended for the chaplain's job by the Islamic Society for the Fire Department, as a result of his work teaching junior high students at Al-Ihsan Academy in Ozone Park, a private Islamic school, where he worked for about five years.

"He's a good man," said Hakim Braxton, president of the Islamic Society. "Any statements he's made, he's responsible for ... But I would ask that the citizens of this city give him a chance and judge him on his actions."

Braxton yesterday also stressed that neither he nor anyone in the Islamic Society would agree with anyone who tried to justify the terror attack in any way. "I lost friends, family, co-workers," he said.

Braxton described Habib as a "humble, grounded and family man, which is a good thing in this job, because he's trying to help everyone and he's representing a very diverse community."

Habib himself said he saw his role as ministering to every member of the Fire Department, not just to Muslims.

"Being a chaplain in the Fire Department, I serve the whole Fire Department," he said.
Copyright © 2005, Newsday, Inc.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

37. Well that was quick.

Maybe now they can find someone who doesn't think FDNY was part of a conspiracy that blew up WTC7.

[iconoclastNYC]

42. Where did you read that he thought the FDNY was part of a conspiracy?

Mind control is alive in America. Don't think. Don't ask questions. Don't question your lieing government. We'll protect you. Don't worry your pretty little head, just go to the mall and shop for your country.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

47. Two words:

"Pull it"

Now why do I think he might have come across that before?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

38. Did he resign or was he "resigned" ?

Either way it makes sense.

[seafan]

56. Per UK Times, he was forced to resign. (10-3-05)

October 03, 2005

THE New York Fire Department begins looking for a new Muslim chaplain today after sacking its newest spiritual adviser for saying that he did not believe that hijackers from al-Qaeda or any other group brought down the World Trade Centre on September 11, 2001.

--snip

Mr Habib, a New York resident since 2000, said: “I, as an individual, do not know who did the attacks. I do not believe it was 19 hijackers who did those attacks. Experts say that it takes two or three weeks to demolish a building like that, but it was pulled down in a couple of hours. Was it 19 hijackers who brought it down or was it a conspiracy?”

--snip

The imam, originally from Guyana, was forced to resign within hours and Michael Bloomberg, the Mayor, ordered an investigation into how he had been chosen six weeks earlier without any questions on the 2001 catastrophe. “I am glad that he has resigned,” Mr Bloomberg said. “This is not a person who should be representing a department that was devastated on 9/11 and answering their spiritual needs.”

Mr Habib, who was trained in Saudi Arabia, said that he regretted causing offence when he told Newsday newspaper that he tended to believe theories that the September 11 attacks were a conspiracy designed to further US interests. He said he had never dealt with the media before but stood by his view that the cause of the towers’ collapse was uncertain.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-1808729,00.html

[cassiepriam]

43. He mist have thought we have free speech in this country, nt

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slay]

21. Good question

There are just too many problems with the government version of the story. Just like the assassination of JFK.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

22. Chemtrails did it. n/t

[bearfan454]

28. No, not chemtrails, the bush administration LET IT HAPPEN ON PURPOSE

In fact they MADE IT HAPPEN ON PURPOSE. Watch the video and explain how bldg 7 fell without ever being hit by a plane.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

31. That site wants my money.

AND it's pushing chemtrail hoodoo. No thanks.

[grahamhgreen]

46. Fact 1) The Bush family has stronger ties to the Bin Laden Family than

Saddam Hussein.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tlsmith1963]

53. I Wonder About 9/11 Myself

Think about how the Twin Towers came down. I remember thinking that it was weird at the time, because they reminded me of those controlled implosions you see on the news when someone wants to bring an old building down. It was just too "neat", too perfect.

Tammy

[pox americana]

55. Welcome to America, where the truth shall get you fired.

Sounds like the Imam just learned a hard lesson in American politics.