MIHOP should no longer be seen as "off the table"

[Pale Blue Dot]

For months it was simply speculation: Bush, we assumed, knew how bad it was going to be in advance, actively ignored the situation, and then lied about it on national TV. A city, a liberal city, was in ruins, and thousands had lost their lives.

Now it's different. It's out of the realm of speculation. Now we have the "smoking gun", only the latest of many "smoking guns" to be found in the past few months.

Bush was warned that Katrina would be devastating, and did nothing. And then lied about it.

Bush said in a speech that "wiretapping requires a warrant" during the time that he was wiretapping without a warrant.

Bush made promises about oil consumption, medical care, and education in his SOTU speech, after he had created a budget breaking all of those promises.

Bush has used fear and anti-Arab sentiment to push through his fascist agenda, only to abandon it when one of the "terrorist sponsors" happens to be a business partner.

This administration has lied about everything. They have created disasters in New Orleans, California, Afghanistan, and Iraq in order to further their own agenda. They have been ruthless and conniving when promoting their own self-interests. They have deliberately watched as thousands died in a politically inconvenient area of the country.

Take this to its logical conclusion. Can there be any sane person, any reasonable human being, who cannot see the possibility that the 9/11 attacks where MIHOP? Is there anyone of sound mind who does not think that this administration is capable of planning, executing, and then lying about a disaster that caused thousands of deaths?

[thinkingwoman]

1. know what convinced me of the possibility?

The ports deal.

The ports deal convinces me there is no terrorist threat (at least no more so than a decade or two ago anyway--there will always be terrorists). I frankly do not believe anyone, even Buschco, would allow the deal to go through if there was a legitimate threat. He's said exactly that, and this is one time when he may actually be telling the truth.

The truth, I think, is that there is no threat and never was, which leads logically to MIHOP for 9/11.

[Pale Blue Dot]

3. Good point

Although I don't put it past this administration to sacrifice national security if it makes them a buck.

[dchill]

79. If it makes them a buck...

or advances their insane PNAC "vision for America" - paid for with the lives and taxes of the lower classes. It's ALL making them money, and they really don't care where it comes from - as long as it's from someone else.

[shance]

11. Terrorist attacks are good profit returns for this Administration.

It is a sickening but sober thought about these rich,angry, white males that are destroying Mother earth and everyone and everything on it.

[thinkingwoman]

38. They are definitely trying...

but they are no match for Mother Earth. In the end, she will crush them. I hope.

[mdmc]

21. Did you see Bernie Saunders yesterday?

He poked some holes in the UAE deal... I'll look for a video link for you.

[thinkingwoman]

37. No I didn't

I'd love a link if you can find one. :hi:

[mdmc]

46. hope! (can of fun might have it tomorrow)

http://www.canofun.com/cof/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=17297 :yourock:<-bernie

[reprehensor]

67. A clearer case...

Of telegraphing a blow has not been seen since the days of Jack Dempsey.

[soulcore]

72. My thoughts EXACTLY! k& r (n/t)

[NoSheep]

78. I agree absolutely.

[bryant69]

2. Well I have a sound mind and I don't believe MIHOP is within

the realm of reasonable possibility. Not because I think they lack the necessary evil, but because covering such a thing so completely is beyond human capability.

Of course I suppose that the reader will have to determine my mental soundness.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Mythsaje]

4. That's one of the things that get to me too...

I honestly have my doubts about whether such a huge cover-up is possible, given how many folks would have to have been involved.

I lean LIHOP myself.

[QuettaKid]

18. 19 Arabs versus 19 DIA orONI. take your pick.

You write....""given how many folks would have to have been involved"".

So are you saying you have no problem believing that it only took 19 Arabs to pull it off??

[bryant69]

24. Yes that is more believable.

Obviously if it had never happened both stories might sound pretty far fetched.

[Mythsaje]

26. I don't believe that...

They probably have a pretty solid support network that may involve hundreds. But WE don't necessarily know anything about it, nor are we necessarily going to.

But if you're talking about members of a corrupt administration and their lackeys not slipping up, or someone going rogue and spilling everything, then I have my doubts.

edited to clarify my point

[we can do it]

70. My Point Exactly -

Most people involved would only be following orders and their small part would not have to be explained by superiors all the way down the line...kind of like abu gharib.

[Pale Blue Dot]

13. Dismissing it as a possibility is part of the problem

I'm not saying I'm completely convinced it was MIHOP, but because no one in power will consider it as a possibility, important and logical questions have never even been asked.

[bryant69]

17. Isn't that a little like saying

"if you don't acknowledge even the possibility of God you can never ask the right questions about reality?" I am a believer as it turns out, but the logic does seem similar (and similarly strained.

Perhaps i'm on to something when I joke about the MIHOP faithfull.

[Pale Blue Dot]

19. Has 9/11, in your opinion, been investigated fully and completely?

I think your argument is a little spurious. I am not talking about religion, I'm talking about verifiable facts, such as the response of NORAD, that have not been fully investigated.

[bryant69]

23. Well it sounds like you have already investigated them and came

to a conclusion? 9/11 will never bee fully and completely investigated. Hell, we haven't finished completely and fully investigating the revolutionary war; every year new book and thesis's and dissertations come out.

Bryant

[Warren Stupidity]

64. The administration didn't even want an investigation at all.

Of course nothing can be 'completely and fully investigated' in an absolute literal sense. That was not the OP's point and I think you know it. His point is that the investigation that was done, and done only after considerable foot dragging by the administration, was superficial to say the least. Were you satisfied with that investigation? Do you think it went far enough?

MIHOP's cousin LIHOP does not require a huge team of conspirators, it in fact requires only what seems to have been done: stop investigations that might get in the way before they got too far. Cheney's group didn't even have to know exactly what the event was going to be, they just needed something big enough to get their war on.

[petgoat]

73. MIHOP doesn't require a huge team of conspirators. No more

than LIHOP.

You simply need the war games to disrupt the air defense, and the Cheney, Rummie and Myers to sit on their hands.

Then the only question is, is Osama wearing his "CIA asset" hat when he orders the attack or his "terrorist" hat?

[MadHound]

14. Yeah, that's what they said about the Kennedy assasination for years

But then in 1979 the government was forced to admit that yes indeed, the Kennedy assasination was indeed a conspiracy, complete with the requisite coverup.

Actually, in a government as regimented as ours is, only a relatively few key people would need to be "in the know". The rest would simply follow orders, without knowing or suspecting what they are about.

[mdmc]

28. but..but...

my little brain can't think within these terms! I need for jfk to be killed by one minimum wage assassin. The idea that the national guard and the secret service stood down at the direction of the cia...makes me scared...makes me sad...makes me fearful that the USA can fall to facism.

It is possible for 9-11-01 lihop / mihop.

[mdmc]

25. what do you mean "covering"?

:kick:

[bryant69]

29. Covering it up

Forgot the up.

[mdmc]

32. thanks bry! I suggest you wait 50 years

after all, don't we know much more about jfk's assassination now then we did in 1966 (or maybe we don't know anything more).

[Occulus]

40. See, one of the reasons I DON'T believe that is

Our very own country has an organization called the CIA. We also have a lot lot lot of black projects being worked on at DARPA, and even corporations have research they don't make public.

Any of these things could be called a "conspiracy", even if they don't have nefarious objectives. There is no reason at all that a terrorist network could not have the same level of dedication within its ranks.

By that same reasoning, however, the fact that we know we have things going on which are brought about by our own government that are so classified that nobody but the participants ever

know about them is itself proof that the 9/11 attacks could have been LIHOP or MIHOP.

Logically, we cannot count those out.

[LunaC]

45. How many people were involved in the Manhattan Project?

The Manhattan Project included over 30 different research and production sites and was carried out in three secret scientific cities: Hanford, Washington, Oak Ridge, Tennessee, and Los Alamos, New Mexico, yet it was kept secret for years.

"Covering such a thing so completely is beyond human capability" is not grounded in historical reality.

[bryant69]

56. Two totally different types of events.

In my opinion.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[LunaC]

63. Distinguish the differences nt

[reprehensor]

69. Hundreds.

If not a thousand. The Profs knew or had an inkling, everyone below them was completely compartmentalized and had no clue that they would be taking out Nagasaki down the road.

[Tim Howells]

85. Controling the mass media is the key ...

If you read about the discrepancies day after day in the NYT
and WaPo and other corporate media outlets - if they were
aggressively challenging the government story - then you
would believe it (MIHOP). The corporate media has fallen
in line - and so have you. You are too afraid to step outside
the box to even look at the evidence, which is readily available.

Tim Howells

[michael_1166]

5. Yes, you are absolutely right.

There cannot be a sane person who can't see that possibility. Uninformed persons maybe, but let them watch some good 9/11 documentations like

http://911revisited.infad.net/video.html
or
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=in+plane+view

if they don't like or don't have the time to read.

[Caution]

6. "Logical conclusion?"

I'm sorry but there is nothing logical about MIHOP, true or not.

[mdmc]

30. He is the pure "logic" of mihop

A: Bush was a weak executive prior to 9-11-01.
B: Bush was picked to push PNAC.
C: PNAC goals can only happen if 9-11-01 attacks occur.
D: CIA + FBI warn about airplane attacks.
E: PNAC could never take control of the USA without 9-11-01.
F: Those in power all benefited from 9-11-01 (all made money, all received additional power).
G: Without 9-11-01, democracy could not be undermined.
H: War games (airplane attack on USA soil) was conducted on 9-11-01 (yet Bush claims that "no one" could ave imagined such attacks, not even Tom Clancy).

If each of the premises above are true, then MIHOP is quite logical conclusion.

[Caution]

49. No that is a leap, not a conclusion

It is just as logical to conclude that 9/11 was a fortuitous coincidence for furthering the PNAC agenda. Please see the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

Your "premises" do not lead to that conclusion in any logical way.

[mdmc]

50. ok thanks for the link

The Reichstag's fire is also illogical...

[Caution]

51. The reichstag fire was an event. It cannot be logical or illogical

The reasons behind the event occurring can be logical or illogical. And remember, that for every Reichstag Fire there are 10,000 pure coincidences and incidences of incompetence. Another link to check:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor

[mdmc]

53. 9-11-01 wasn't an event?

perhaps I think that incompetence is 'on purpose'. Occams razor is...a theory...not a law...right?

[Caution]

55. 9-11-01 of course was an event. The point is that the reasoning behind

an event is what can or cannot be logical, the event itself is the result of a logical chain. Occam's Razor is a logical construct. Not a theory. The word theory has very specific meaning that MUST be adhered to (otherwise you end up with non-sense statements like "Evolution is just a theory").

You cannot use an event such as the Reichstag fire as the example to prove your supposition because it is a nearly unique event in history. This kind of thing does not happen often. Additionally, I'm sure you have heard of Godwin's Law?

Look, I'll be frank here. I don't believe MIHOP because I have never seen a cogent argument pointing to anything other than "evidence" of two types:

1.) Assumptions that have been put forward that have been repudiated by experts in the various fields (structural engineers and the supposed "demolition theories"

2.) Purely anecdotal or circumstantial evidence

There has never been a cogent logical train put out that leads to the logical conclusion of MIHOP. I have read through the bulk of the material and found it to be very typical of the type of arguments that are used by Young Earth Creationists.

If A and B then C is only true if A and B are both True and C can be held to logically result from the previous antecedents.

From your list of items, I can just as randomly conclude that 9/11 was caused by a group of aliens that think that PNAC's plan would be the best way for earthlings to eliminate themselves thus freeing the planet for their eventual colonization. They orchestrated it knowing that earthlings would come to the conclusion that PNAC was at fault and that a huge movement of 9/11 conspiracy theorists would arise that would pull down the US government and as a result world chaos would ensue.

[mdmc]

58. would occam's razor "prove" the existance of aliens?

I would think that it does.

The idea that the fire was an unique event could also be valid for 9-11-01.

[Caution]

66. Occam's Razor very clearly shows that aliens are unlikely

Aliens are the single most unlikely explanation for any of the various phenomena that are generally attributed to aliens by those who believe in them.

What is more likely to have occurred at Roswell? An alien crash landing or a crash landing of a classified military balloon?

What is more likely the cause of crop circles? Aliens or pranksters?

Who is more likely to have create the Pyramids? Aliens or Humans?

How about "Alien abduction?" Sad, deluded people fooled into it by skilled charlatans (or as they like to call themselves Regression Therapists) like Barbara Lamb or Aliens?

I'm assuming you mean the fire in WOTC7 causing the collapse (or the twin towers, either doesn't really matter all that much). The vast majority of structural engineers are in consensus that these building collapsed due to massive structural damage as a result of the plane crash, the massive fires caused by that crash (and in the case of WOTC7 the damage caused by the fall of the other two towers).

Explain to me how the VERY few who disagree with these findings are any different than the scientists trumpeted by the globa-warming deniers? Or the Young Earth Creationists (or as they now call themselves Intelligent Design proponents)?

Science is a consensual discipline and that includes forensic science. That one or two people out there who seem reputable are in support of MIHOP doesn't change the fact that the consensus is that these buildings were brought down as the result of the actions of 19 fundamentalist hijackers bent on destruction and suicide.

[petgoat]

74. The vast majority of structural engineers

Do you have a link to support that claim? The vast majority of structural engineers were surprised when the towers fell.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/dyk.html

For three years the prevailing dogma presumably embraced by your
silent-majority-of-structural-engineers was Tom Eagar's silly "zipper" and "pancake" theories under
which weak floor truss "clips" at the perimeter columns "unzipped", but core-side truss clips were so
strong that the collapsing floors tore down the 47 14" X 36" steel columns in the core.

NIST has completely reversed the prevailing dogma. Now the perimeter truss clips are so gosh-darned
strong that sagging floors buckled the perimeter columns and brought the towers down.

This reversal has happened virtually without comment by the engineering community. MIT didn't even
bother to defend Eagar's theories.

Since the steel was destroyed and the blueprints are a secret, structural engineers wisely refrain
from comment. For you to interpret this silence as consensus is not right.

[mdmc]

77. I meant that it seems like an infinite universe

and the conditions for life on earth most certainly would exist elsewhere. Since this life would not be 'earthling', it would be alien.

In razor terms, We exist, so others must exist.

[Caution]

86. Agreed. It is highly likely that there is life elsewhere in the universe

It is astronomically UNLIKELY that aliens have ever visited earth.

[we can do it]

80. Who Is More Likely To Outsmart NORAD & the US Airforce?

19 arabs with boxcutters (some who are still alive) or someone who gives orders to the military.

[Caution]

87. you realize how bigoted your statement makes you sound?

"19 arabs with boxcutters"

Seems to me they did a pretty damned good job of it, picked exactly the right weapon to use that would get them past airport security, picked exactly the right flights, etc etc. Pretty smart to me. Or do you think it is impossible for arabs to be just as smart as Americans?

I think you give far to much credit to the US military. I see nothing to lead me to believe that a group of people who did years of planning using the weaknesses inherent in the US airline industry security procedures couldn't pull this off.

When is the last time you flew? Can you honestly say that you didn't see 10 or 20 instances of lax security?

[we can do it]

90. Calling Me Bigoted Is A Stretch - Insert ANY NATIONALITY w/Boxcutters

Spare me the condescending attitude - the official story (which I DO NOT BELIEVE) said it was arabs. Americans who believe the assine story are fucking stupid......the boxcutters is the bullshit part imo - for gods sake. Amazing isn't it - not guns or bombs that could take the plane down if they used the weapons - no one fought them off? I have shoes on heavy enough to knock someone out right now- no one could have used a brief case as a weapon give me a freakin break....


Getting 19 MEN OF ANY FREAKING RACE TO DO ANYTHING ON TIME - at the same time would be a freking miracle.

:sarcasm:

[dchill]

81. LOGIC...

tells me that the SCIENTIFIC METHOD is NOT being employed by supporters of the "Official Conspiracy Theory". I believe that the "scientific method" requires the scientist to use all the relevant, correct data. That is impossible, and as a supposed supporter of science, you should know it.

What the facts tell me is that MIHOP is the logical conclusion.

[Fridays Child]

7. I was telling my husband, just this morning, that among the most...

...damning evidence was B*sh's consciousness of guilt. His itinerary, that morning, was public knowledge. If his handlers had really believed that we were being attacked by terrorists, they would have whisked Chimpy away, when the first plane hit the WTC, before he ever arrived at the Booker Elementary. The fact that they didn't and that they let him stay in the school even after the second plane hit, is probative of MIHOP, in my opinion.

It would be interesting to know what was happening with his Secret Service detail, at that time. Did they want to get him out of there? Who, on that detail, would have been in charge of making such a decision? Did he or she want to move Chimpy but was overridden by a higher-up like Andy Card?

Edited to add: Did the 9-11 Commission ask these questions?

[CrazyOrangeCat]

8. I agree with you.

Seeing those two buildings collapse at near free-fall into their footprints set off my bullshit meter immediately.

As for cover-up . . . it wouldn't take too many brain-washed pawns to carry this off.

But there will never be any way to expose that it was mihop.


LIHOP, on the other hand . . .

Somebody, somewhere, ought to be able to find out what happened behind the scenes with regard to NORAD. They were able to scramble fighters in minutes when Payne Stewart's plane went off course. . . you'll never convince me that they weren't able to scramble fighters when FOUR commercial jetliners flew wildly off-course. Somebody at NORAD made a decision to LIHOP.

[Pale Blue Dot]

10. NORAD's what always bothered me the most.

There is no logical (there I go with that word again) explanation for their behavior that day, and no adequate investigation has been done.

[laruemtt]

62. and let's not forget,

the "19 hijackers" supposedly took years to plan the attack. most definitely they knew about NORAD's protocol for hijackings. why were they not sufficiently concerned about that? it's almost as if they knew they would not be intercepted..................

[petgoat]

75. The logical explanation for NORAD's failure to defend the skies

is that six simultaneous war games disrupted the air defense.

Who told the al Qaeda hijackers about the war games?

[lostnfound]

33. Three buildings.

Don't forget WTC 7.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

35. correct.

[Griffy]

84. EXACTLY.. 3 bldgs!! WTC7 was not hit by any planes..

if people dont think there are serious unanswered questions then your a little naive.. sorry to say, but most people dont even KNOW about WTC7. I am an engineer, I looked closely at the NIST report and the videos of WTC7 and it is most likly some sort of controlled demo. I dont pretent to know who did it... I dont fill in large blanks with guesses, but I can tell you that WTC 7 did not collapse due to the planes hitting the towers and there subsequent collapse. The possiblity that the towers did collapse solely because of the damge done by the planes would grealty decrease if there was demolition in WTC 7, wouldnt you say?

Think CSI ... follow the evidence... focus on WTC 7

[sgsmith]

82. Bull

Read the NTSB report on Payne Stewart's flight.
http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.pdf

09:27 EDT - Last transmission from aircraft
09:33 EDT - First unanswered communication from ATC to aircraft

09:52 CDT which is
10:52 EDT - USAF F-16 test pilot vectored to intercept

For the math impared, thats 1 hr 19 minutes from the first hint of trouble to start of intercept. And NORAD didn't scramble fighters, ATC requested nearby military flights to intercept the Learjet.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

9. One stupid question

Exactly how many major cities are conservative? The vast majority of urban areas are liberal by the very nature of what cities are.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

12. Good point . . .

. . . only Cincinnatti comes to mind.

Most cities are liberal.

But NYC is the biggest and most liberal.

The most powerful, liberal city.

[marmar]

61. San Fran is the most liberal....

No contest.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

71. I agree.

It is the most liberal. No contest.

[marmar]

15. And frankly, MIHOP/LIHOP shouldn't be taken off the table...

for the devastation in another very liberal city in 2001. :tinfoilhat: Oops, I didn't read to the end of your post - you've covered that territory. Tinfoilhat-ism isn't seeming so tinfoilhattish lately.

[leveymg]

16. The only way to determine whether there was intent is to convene a GJ

There is a prima facie case for 3,000 counts of negligent homicide related to 9/11. A good prosecutor and a Grand Jury will find out whether other charges are warranted.

But, first, a Special Prosecutor has to be appointed.

[mdmc]

20. wassup finnfan!

:hi:
Today 3-2-2006, Dennis Kucinich stated on the house floor that BUSH LIHOP regarding katrina AND 9-11-01. I am not sure that DU will allow lihop threads to remain on the GD forum. I hope that DU will allow lihop thread remain of the GD board.:kick:

Dennis Kucinich is on right now 11:55AM!:kick:cspan

[CrazyOrangeCat]

22. Holy moley!

Be careful Dennis. You're a brave man . . .

[CrazyOrangeCat]

27. Vote this thread up, please.

Mihop approaches the realm of "Best Of" . . . strange days indeed.

[mdmc]

47. done!

:kick:

[JackRiddler]

60. Actually, this used to be normal on GD...

DU was one of the places where 9/11 research was born and the alternate (likelier) paradigm of inside job variations was common on the main forum for more than a year. Sadly, certain elements of the leadership appear to worry more about some false notion of what plays in Peoria, and have in the last year banished anything that even mentions 9/11 to this dungeon (as has now happened to this thread as well - but not before it accumulated all those R votes).

[Warren Stupidity]

65. Its been entombed in 9-11 already.

Ah well. Need to keep everyone from thinking too hard.

[Chiyo-chichi]

31. An administration that would propose

painting a US spy plane as a UN plane to entice Iraq to fire on it in order to justify a war... is capable of anything.

[mdmc]

34. seven "R"'s!

Greatest Page, here we come!

[stevietheman]

36. Yes, it's all about a pattern

Even though I don't feel I have enough direct evidence to say conclusively that LIHOP or MIHOP are the correct views on what happened on 9/11, I do hold grave suspicions based on the five-year pattern of Bush regime lies, coupled with how the administration tried to prevent and then hamper the investigations of the 9/11 committee.

In short, the pattern of lies is a kind of circumstantial evidence for LIHOP or MIHOP.

[marions ghost]

39. Yes I see the possibility....

a. I have never believed that the planes' impact caused the buildings to collapse

b. The administration has lied about everything they've touched to a mind-blowing degree

c. Since a thorough investigation was not done, anything is possible

------------

[CJCRANE]

41. 85% of American troops in Iraq

believe Saddam responsible for 9/11.

Just shows you don't need a cover-up - just cover a lie with a bigger lie and shout louder than your critics. That's the Bush-Cheney tactic and the MSM lapped it up for years.

[Senator]

42. FWIW - the "tell" that led to my "uh, oh" (long before 9/11)

The neofascists are, by and large, one-trick ponies - creatures of habit.

Note for example their crimes to win elections: Nixon sabotaging the peace talks via Anna Chennault in 1968, Reagan sabotaging the hostage release via Silberman/Poppy/Casey in 1980, Bush sabotaging Camp David via Perle in 2000.

Also note their time-tested, preferred method of legal persecution; the perjury trap on irrelevancy -- Alger Hiss, Clark Clifford, Bill Clinton etc...

One of their other very rigid habits (tells) is their pattern of ONLY appointing women and people of color to departments that they, at best, want to ignore but more often intend to loot/gut or watch fail. A place where a crony can't be put unless the looting process will be lucrative (Albaugh). Somewhere a fall guy/gal and/or scapegoat is called for. Examples include Lynne Martin, Sam Skinner, Christie Whitman, and others.

Now is it possible that they changed their ways and became so inclusive and "liberal" that Powell and Rice were something more than lawn ornaments, that die-hard thugs like Cheney, Perle, Rummy, and the boys were born-again admirers of theirs, that Bolton, Armitage, and Hadley were content to be second-fiddles, that all such euphemedia pablum was correct, that they were not strategically placed to take the fall for "something?"

Sure it's possible. Just not likely.

---

[newspeak]

48. all I have to do

is remember the very real Iran-Contra BCCI scandal. Daniel Casolero called it "Octopus" for a reason. So, how many Americans believe that a faction of our government brought drugs into the country and put it on the streets? Is that a tinfoil conspiracy? How many Americans believe Daniel committed suicide after meeting with an informant? Is that a tinfoil conspiracy? How many people know that the Promis software was stolen from a small family firm by a faction of our government? Is that a conspiracy? I question everything. The timing of 9/11, what capital this administration gained from 9/11 including degrading civil liberties, the administrations business ties with a human rights abuser Saudi Arabia. But most of all, I am concerned that the same Iran-Contra players are back and they have shown themselves to be felons. I do not believe our military is that inept to have allowed the second WTC building to be hit or the Pentagon-all you have to do is look at the time line. As I understand, a couple months before 9/11, the administration changed military emergency protocol. Why? Now, Dubai has ties to BCCI and BCCI was part of the Iran-Contra scandal. I believe a corrupt, sociopathic administration is capable of everything and anything to attain more power and further their ideology and agenda. To these miscreants, we are an asset or liability, and in Skull and Bones thought, the Barbarians!!!!

[Senator]

57. Yes, the "military protocol change" was Pre-9/11, ... (and so was...)

... it was in July that Rumsfeld took sole control of intercept command.

Other Pre-9/11 mystery acts included:

• Removed the fast-response carrier group from the Indian Ocean
  
  
• Grounded armed drone aircraft tracking bin Laden
  
  
• Eliminated Saudi passport restrictions
  
  
• Ended Able Danger data mining
  
  
• Stopped weekly anti-terror principles' meetings
  
  
• Threatened Taliban with carpet of bombs
  
  
• Announced the longest vacation from WH in history months before Aug. 1 date

--

[Orsino]

43. Unless * is hiding a storm generator, "MIHOP" is not relevant.

What you're describing as regards Katrina is at worst LIHOP. "Actively ignored" also presupposes that * actually cares about Americans after they're born and before they're dead.

[deminks]

54. Unless he told the response teams to stand down.

That would make it a mihop in my view - more than just a lihop. And he didn't need a storm generator to do that. Someday, there will be an investigation. I pray for that day.

[Orsino]

59. Hard to prove, I think, but yeah...

...that would be a sort of MIHOP.

Too bad he's not dumb enough to put that on videotape. Probably.

[JackRiddler]

44. "9/11 was an inside job. We can all agree on that."

k & r

[mdmc]

52. I doubt that we all agree

hell I bet that we all can agree that the drug war is a failure. You and I agree...:kick:

[reprehensor]

68. There is no shame...

In speculation.

[mdmc]

76. no shame at all to discussing things in this little backwater forum

:kick:for the isolation.

[bobbieinok]

83. pushed to LIHOP + maybe MIHOP b/c of

--no air force interception of the planes, ie, stand down and Rumsfeld changed the rules earlier

--W sitting and sitting and sitting in the elementary school long after he was 'notified' that US was being 'attacked'

--unPatriot Act (very long) was ready to present to Congress almost immediately

--bushco blocked 9-11 investigation for a long time, then appointed chairmen, each of whom was disqualified b/c of their corporate ties.......NEVER alloted much $ for it .....W + Cheney testify TOGETHER with NO OATH....Max Cleland, who would probably have been a fierce commission member, was removed by W and appointed to some totally irrelevant position

........blow up of space shuttle was IMMEDIATELY investigated with MUCH MORE $$$ than ever alloted to 9-11 investigation

--NO ONE was fired, lost job b/c of (in)action on 9-11

[theSaiGirl]

88. NORAD on 9/11 ........ lies and absurdities

Andrews Air Force Base is 10 minutes from the Pentagon.
On a day when the President was flying in and out of DC, on a mission to Sarasota, Forida to read "pet goat" stories to school kids (no offense intended to one of my favorite posters at this thread),
it goes without saying that there would combat-ready squadrons ready to scramble within minutes, if only to guard against any possible threat to the President on Air Force One.
There have always been at least 2 combat-ready squadrons standing by at Andrews for routine diplomatic flights arriving or departing from the the District of Corruption.
If Tony Blair flies in or out, you better believe they are ready to scramble immediately.
Six minutes at most to fire-up the engines and get aloft.
I know this ... because Andrews AFB is right down the road from me.
I've broached this subject with civilian personnel who actually work there, and they reply that "we can't talk about it..."
"Privileged information", apparently.
As for the other bases in the immediate vicinity of the Pentagon (Bolling, Langley) ... what more need be said ?
But if you want to get a sense of the contantly shifting timelines, changing stories and general shucking and jiving from NORAD - to account for their inexplicable non-role that morning ...
just check out what Minnesotat Senator Mark Dayton had to say about NORAD ..
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0408/S00001.htm
http://www.infowars.com/print/Sept11/dayton_911truth.ht...
You remember Senator Mark Dayton, right ?
http://dayton.senate.gov /
He replaced the late Paul Wellstone .... who I suspect got whacked in one of these periodic "accidental" air crashes, that occur so conveniently from time-to-time.
http://opednews.com/thoreau1203_wellstone_assassinated....
http://www.assassinationscience.com /

[theSaiGirl]

89. No security cam videos => no hijackers => no NORAD necessary

Really the simplest explanation of all, in the complete screaming absence of any plausible evidence from the FBI.
Except, of course, for the 19 pictures they broadcast all over the networks and newspapers within about 48 hours of 9/11.
Now THAT'S quick investigative work isn't it ?
Only ... it appears that some of the 19 "hijackers" in those broadcast photos turned up alive and vehehmently protesting their innocence.
Faking a false-flag synthetic "terrorist" event only required rigging the Towers (and WTC7) for demolition, manufacturing the network broadcast video for CNN Psy-Ops Central, and the use of a few drones or missiles.
And the dumb, wilful gullibility of the American television audience.
They didn't need a NORAD "stand-down" order ?
Who needs NORAD ?
Who needs real "planes" ?
Who needs real "hijackers" ?

Anyone want to open up the rotten can of worms around all the "war game" exercises, COINCIDENTALLY going on that morning ?
(Amalgam Virgo, Northern Warrior, Northern Vigilance, Tripod II, etc.)
(which incuded simulating a small "plane" crashing into a building at the NRO campus).
All spelled out here in excruciatingly painful detail:
http://team8plus.org/news.php

Cynthia McKinney nailed Rumsfeld and Myers on those war-game exercises in a Congressional hearing broadcast on C-SPAN.
But that got zero coverage in the controlled media.

But that's ok.
They just keep spinning the official Hollywood plot-line about "19 crazed hijackers with boxcutters, masterminded by a dialysis patient, from a cave in lower Afghanistan"... until people surrrender from sheer exhaustion.
Then, when people start to ask questions about NORAD's "response" (or lack thereof), they can trot out the old, tired and now-predictable refrain about "failure and incompetence" .
Yes indeed ... as the 9/11 Commission dog-and-pony show hacks Kean and Hamilton would say, 9/11 happened because of "a failure of the imagination".