MIHOP & LIHOP hits the mass (?) media

[BlueEyedSon]

On AAR with Maddow now (w/ NY mag author).
Regardless of whether true or not, the 2 concepts should be part of the public discourse of 9/11....

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Piece is: "The Ground Zero Grassy Knoll" (link)

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/news/features/16464/index.html

[mod mom]

8. I never gave the Kennedy assassination conspiracy much thought, but after

witnessing the blatant theft of elections (and being told I was a conspiracy theorist), lead me to examine 911, first LITHOP then on to MITHOP. I then examined details surrounding the Kennedy assassination and the amount of evidence and "coincidence" is just too overwhelming.

I had no idea that a month after Kennedy's death, former president Harry Truman expressed on the front page of the Washington Post his dismay that the CIA he created had been running a shadow government, becoming operational. That Eisenhower established a "President's Board of Consultants on Foreign Intelligence Activities" that concluded that the CIA's clandestine services were "operating for the most part on an autonomous and free-wheeling basis in highly critical area" in direct conflict with State Department policy. (Note: "A Farewell to Justice by Joan Mellen is where I got my info on presiedential commentary). When you read the overwhelming amount of coincidence where the Bush family has connections, it is mind boggling.

[ChickMagic]

14. I never believed the Kennedy conspiracy

Until I heard Poppy Bush say he had no idea where he was
or what he was doing when Kennedy was shot. That makes
him either the only living soul of a certain age who
doesn't remember or he's lying.

[tatertop]

20. True enough: I was six and I recall that moment clear as a bell.

[electropop]

40. I was 3 and I vaguely recall.

The funeral anyway.

[tatertop]

65. I was in the first grade. My teacher gave us the news. Very somber.

I don't believe I have ever talked to an
American my age or older who does not recall that day
vividly.

[dflprincess]

37. It also means he apparently has no alibi.

The only person who was more than 5 years old on 11/22/63 who can't account for his whereabouts at the time of the shooting. :evilgrin:

[Lugnut]

50. Yep

I was 18 years old and I remember that day and where I was very clearly. The whole country was in total shock for weeks. Somebody is either lying or hiding something.

[Copperred]

39. indeed.......someone is hiding something.

[Flying Dream Blues]

69. Yes, that's a huge red flag. nt

[nicknameless]

2. I read a poll somewhere yesterday that showed that the VAST majority

of Americans don't believe the government's version of what happened on 9-11. That is a HUGE deal.
I assume at least LIHOP in that opinion. Many may not be able to come to grips with MIHOP yet.

[Ufomammut]

24. Polls have revealing that for awhile now

Plus one would have to figure that a substantial part of NSA "surveillance" has to do with keeping a finger on the pulse of the publics knowledge and/or interest in those "crazy internet 9/11 conspiracy theories." They've been able to ride it out this far, but it's been spilling over into the mainstream - which can be beneficial for them, unfortunately ..however, in light of more people waking up to what Bushco is really about, mainstream exposure of alt versions of 9/11 won't serve to "de-fang" the evidence, and when more people are clammering for an independent investigation, they'll either resort to drastic measures, or offer up a few sacred cows as sacrificial lambs ...which is possibly why W was "chosen" for the spot in the first place; if anyone has to be left holding a bag...

However, so many people would be complicit in the knowledge of the cover up/failure to act, it'll NEVER happen. Look at how long it's been since JFK, and they're still covering their asses on that one. The people could demand justice, but the propaganda effort ensures that there will never be that kind of majority/solidarity among our populace ...so the fascists can keep on keeping on.

[madame defarge]

3. Really dumb question...

What does MIHOP & LIHOP stand for? I've been racking my feeble brain trying to figure it out...and have yet to come up with a logical answer... Thanks.

[Big Kahuna]

4. LIHOP, MIHOP

Let It Happen On Purpose

Made It Happen On Purpose

[nickinSTL]

5. LIHOP and MIHOP are...

"Let It Happen On Purpose" and "Made It Happen On Purpose"

-LIHOP means that the Bush Administration KNEW a terror attack was likely and let it happen to further their goals...

-MIHOP means that the Bush Administration had a more direct involvement in making it happen...to further their goals.

[BlueEyedSon]

6. google is your friend, you know!

[gilpo]

9. Also, maybe your enemy....

in the future, anyway.

[BlueEyedSon]

11. dont use gmail & clean your cookies

[bpilgrim]

15. that doesn't hide your IP from them

besides, there is nothing wrong with asking about those words on the site that they were coined on ;->

peace

[BlueEyedSon]

16. use a proxy?

:)

[bpilgrim]

19. that can be traced, too...

takes a little more effort, besides most people don't even know what a proxy is.

:hi: BlueEyedSon

peace

[file83]

49. The future of Google.......? (look)

:shrug:

[PuraVidaDreamin]

7. We have to make PNAC a household word too!

I always tell folks to read David Ray Griffins Books
A New Pearl Harbor, and 9/11 Distortions and Omissions

[Arkansas Granny]

17. A visit to the PNAC site will be an eye opening experience. You

can see how they have influenced our Middle East policies as early as the letter they wrote to President Clinton in 1998 that outlines using military force to remove Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. People should also pay attention to the people who signed off on this letter.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/lettersstatements.htm

This, more than anything else, convinced me that Bush is nothing but a useful tool who only parrots what his "masters" want him to say in order to enact their policies.

[EVDebs]

46. Don't forget the wargames of 9-11 and the Ptech connection to FAA

and NAS computer systems...

The Pentagon attack could only have been accomplished with the wargames being already known about (see the
http://www.oilempire.us/wargames.html#airforce
weblink showing in detail ) and any 'insiders' who could give such information to the Saudi/UAE hijackers

Ptech article
http://www.madcowprod.com/index45.html

showing their FAA and NAS computer access, along with other clients tied to intelligence. I understand that Ptech has now changed its name to GoAgile, for what it's worth.

Dollars of Terror
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17730

""Ptech’s clients in 2001 included the Department of Justice, the Department of Energy, Customs, Air Force, the White House, the FAA, IBM, Sysco, Aetna, and Motorola, to name just a few...
The FBI finally raided Ptech on December 6, 2002. However, no arrests were made and the company continues to operate, and according to Ptech’s CEO, Oussama Ziade, in May 2004, "Ptech still has government agencies as customers, including the White House."...Recently, Ptech changed both the name of the company and of its software to GoAgile.""

Please read this thread quick, they have a habit of dumping it into the "dungeon" rather fast here at DU !

[flyarm]

51. MAY I SUGGEST FOR NEW du"ers PLEASE GO TO 9/11 BOARD

please go to 9/11 board anything on 9/11 on the general board usually gets sent over to the9/11 board..
there is alot of info newbies need to read!!

no one can be too informed..
fly

[zbdent]

10. Charlie Sheen represents the mainstream left as much as

Ted Kaczynski represents the mainstream right . . .

[BlueEyedSon]

12. Who said anything about charlie sheen? nt

[Solomon]

25. Well since he's speaking out about it, isn't he helping to bring the

matter out? I didn't watch, but I saw Hannity planned to do a rant and rave about what Sheen said on his tv show. I thought to myself, "fine, that's more publicity for the idea".

[BlueEyedSon]

43. Good for him. I'm referring to/listening to more credible sources

[jeanarrett]

64. Here's one:

www.scholarsfortruth.org

[400Years]

13. what makes you think TZ represents the right at all?

[mattclearing]

21. Hyperbole much? n/t

[file83]

47. LOL!! No shit! That's funny....

[zbdent]

22. Okay, here's my explanation for those who aren't getting my drift

Charlie Sheen is the reason the MIHOP is now hitting the MSM.

Charlie Sheen would be used by the right-wingers as "Oh, look - kooky Hollywood lefties are at it again."

MIHOP, in my opinion, is extremely unlikely. However, LIHOP does fit in with the PNAC's 1999 memo.

Now, since Charlie Sheen has made a public statement about MIHOP, he's going to be touted as the latest spokesman for the "looney left", right?

And that's about as "representative" of the "mainstream" lefties as any right-wing kook, such as Pat Robertson, the Grand Wizard of the KKK, Ted K., would be of the "mainstream right".

That's the explanation.

I'd say that a more relevant comparison could be made that Charlie Sheen is as representative of the mainstream left as Larry the Cable Guy is representative of the mainstream right. Just as stupid of remarks by both. But Charlie Sheen will be the latest "example" touted by the media.

[SpiralHawk]

23. The Moussaoui trial is another big factor

The agents who have been testifying under oath about how the BushCo machine systematically ignored all the Flashing Warnings -- is raising eyebrows.

BushCo - much more than incompetent.

MIHOP

[zbdent]

44. LIHOP

not that he MADE it happen . . . they were letting it happen because they needed a "Pearl Harbor" event . . .

When the agents were taken off the trail of the guys in the US and put on the trail of "Chandra Levy's lover" and "Bill Clinton's Penthouse Offices", it made the difference between a pair of guys in a rubber raft the year before and 19 guys hijacking planes then.

[BlueEyedSon]

27. No i think the NY Mag guy was out in front of this one

[radio4progressives]

52. Those that worry about the 'examples' Rabid Bush Bots will use

should consider the fact that there is no limit to their rabid and desperate attempts to find something else and someone else, even if they have to invent it.

Have you already forgotten the War on Christmas? Well, that's morphed into the War on Christianity now. What does Hannity and O'Lielly and thier ilk use to promote these wacked out conpsiracies?

The contemporary use of 'Happy Holidays' by "liberals"? ... there is no limit to their depravity. These are the same people who did the same thing to Michael Moore with his film on Farenheit 9/11.

Nothing in that film that was stated as fact (as opposed to the opinions that were also in the film) was ever proven or shown to be wrong, inaccurate, or deceptive. Indeed so far, everything was largely hidden or unreported by the mainstream media at the time of the film's release and a full two years later, everything that Moore presented in that film, was eventually (past year) reported as if it were "news" in the CM.

The reason why i take the time to write these reminders, is to underscore a very important fact. Truth is often painful and shameful. And those who are hell bent in denying facts, will be hell bent to target truth tellers as "fringe lunatics" or the like. (Remember Pearl Harbor?)

But isn't it interesting that liberals will too often rush to take the defensive posture on these kinds of baseless attacks, rather than point to the rabid right's lunatics that are given star celebrity status.

Pat Robertson, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, and many many others. People that make the most outrageous, hyperbolic, offensive, baseless attacks against anyone who disagrees with their pov, and more than often engage in hate speeche on a level, sometimes that even comes dangerously close to threaten international crises..(Pat Robertson's public pronouncements to assassinate Hugo Chavez etc) it certainly is cultivating a very divisive America based on lies and hate - just to promote their own evil agenda.

Where is the Left in ruthlessly targeting them? Instead, the Left runs for cover on the slightest hyperbolic provacations or admonitions from the Rabid right, against people who have the temerity to speak truth to power like Michael Moore, Cindy Sheehan and others.

I've see that right here on DU. I say to them: Shame! Shame! Shame!

I see it right here on DU when a Senator takes a bold action stepping out in front of the spineless pack, like Senator Feingold on the Censure Resolution... Right Wing attacks Feingold, calling him unpatriotic and guilty of Treason, and because of those attacks from the RW, is then attacked here on DU by so called Liberals, pointing to the RW attack as the justification. Again, I say to them: Shame! Shame! Shame!

So this is not intended to be a poke in the eye to you personally, only a request that you consider where that urge to automatically join the rabid right wing chorus and thereby legimitizing their pov might be coming from and for you to consider challenging those assumptions!

You'll likely learn that the tendancie is a long cultivated conditiong and learned reaction, straight out of pavlov - and all of this is psy ops - in order to sanctify the "official story" which, like the WMD's is really just a great big lie.

Just ask yourself, do you think Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld would Lie to the American people?

If you say no, then you haven't been paying attention.

[CJCRANE]

53. Well said..nt

[motocicleta]

54. I'm in complete agreement

the left is so cowed in this country that we automatically see the downside to everything that occurs. Enough! The bastards have gotten where they are by lying, loudly, over and over again. No reason we should shut up, I don't care who it is or what the forum is.

Ya never know, maybe Charlie will be seen as a great American hero in 50 years.

[Swamp Rat]

18. They did it twice and they'll do it again.

:yoiks:

[Dunvegan]

28. Have any predictions, Swamp Rat?

[moodforaday]

32. By twice do you mean London 7/7?

n/t

[Swamp Rat]

61. New Orleans n/t

[radio4progressives]

57. Hey Swamp Rat - is that James Baker?

seems like he looks like the evil rat bastard Puppet Master that arranged the entire coup of 2000..

[Swamp Rat]

62. Yep

He has a lot to do with what happened and what's gonna happen.

[BlackHeart]

26. Yes, why let truth

get in the way of things.

[mzmolly]

29. Frankly, it distracts from the actual issue. BUSH IS INCOMPETENT!

I used to be a LIHOP-er, now I'm a BUSHISANINCOMPETENTASS-er.

[HamdenRice]

31. No one can be THAT incompetent

It would mean that is incompetence is like a black hole that swallows up the competence of other layers of government. 9/11; Iraq intel; troop levels; looting; Katrina; the deficits.

It can't all be explained by incompetence. Their power depends on continued "terra" and have to keep the disorder and chaos going.

[mzmolly]

34. Oh yes they can. He was on vacation remember? He's never had to

work for anything. Every company he ran - he ran into the ground. Katrina solidified my opinion on the mans actual ability to hold high office. But, I respect the opinion of those who disagree and I would'nt want to silence anyone. I just find the timing of this curious? Suddenly this theory is part of the public discourse? Seems convenient.

:hi:

[stickdog]

71. Maybe, but ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2532723&mesg_id=2532723

[underpants]

35. Yes I have never bought into LIHOP or MIHOP

Sorry I may be naive but I just won't "go there"

I think that 9/11 will long live in W's legacy as the testament to his (their) gross negligence and incompetence.

[mzmolly]

36. 911, Katrina and the mess in Iraq lead back to the same conclusion.

Incompetence and backward priorities.

[moodforaday]

48. I'll grant you Bush

But also FAA, FBI, CIA, NORAD, NSA and everyone else in any position of authority? What about those who were NOT incompetent, like those FBI agents who sent dramatic memos only to be ignored?

But anyway, MIHOP does not say Bush did it. Some believe he did, others believe he had no idea. Bush is indeed incompetent, that's why I think he was never part of the project. His role was to get out of the way, sit at that darn school and read the goat story to kids. Just to give an example - pure speculation, mind - it's plausible that the attacks were staged to force Bush into doing what he has been doing since. War in Iraq, now maybe Iran and who knows what else. Permanent military bases in Iraq. Permanent state of war. NSA wiretaps. Big, big cashflow into the military. The Patriot Act. Nobody says Bush drafted the patriot Act himself - only that some people were hell-bent on having a law like that. And they made sure they got it.

[mzmolly]

55. I really think Bush is THE driving force behind Iraq.

I guess if MIHOP is the case, I'd have to be in the "he didn't know" category myself. But, I still don't fully buy that. It would not have been necessary to take the buildings down completely in order to have public support for "revenge on the muzlimz." One plane hitting the side of the building would have been ALL that was needed to whip merkunz into a blind catatonic rage.

As for the FBI, Bush appoints "yes men" people who are cronies and he has little regard for their credentials. The article explains how ultimately Bush's incompetence made ALL the difference in the world. Richard clark has also made that clear in his book on the subject.

My mind remains open, however.

[moodforaday]

59. Why take down the buildings

You raise good points. As for taking down the buildings - one supposition (postulated, if I remember correctly, by DU's Minstrel Boy), is that the symbolic impact is very different if the buildings withstand the attack vs if they fall. Symbolically, it's the difference between survival and defeat. Afther the crashes you'd think the worst has been done; then you see the towers collapse one by one and that sinks in much deeper. The sheer number of people who saw the collapse on live TV must have been much greater than of those who started watching early enough to see the second airplane hit the building.

But I would make a plainer case. If you've hired 19 amateurs to fly your planes - or even if you expect to remote-control them - you still want backup. You plant the bombs in WTC in case the planes miss, or in case the damage they do is insufficient to destroy evidence of who was on the planes, for instance, or how they were flown.

In general, it could have been a kind of convergence of interests. There may have been an actual plot by a bunch of Muslims to fly planes into WTC. Maybe they were on the planes, maybe they didn't even know they were patsies. But the possibility of failure was too high, so someone helped them along the way.

[mzmolly]

60. I'm just not quite there these days.

I'll admit to entertaining various possibilities in the past and I'll continue to remain open minded, but I don't think they would have needed to go to that extreme.

Thanks for the discussion however.

[FatDave]

63. One plane wouldn't have been enough

Now, I don't particularly buy into MIHOP/LIHOP, or even JFK theories, but if one were to intentionally pull off something like 9/11...

1 Plane = Possible attack, possible accident
2 Planes = Obvious attack

[mzmolly]

67. Ok, I'll give you the two planes. But the demolition?

That seems far fetched. ;)

[nolabels]

58. Yep, yep, yep that's what a lot have been saying here all along

* has the maturity of a young teenage boy. His acumen of other things may be different but mostly it's like they say it is it would seem to me. An alcoholic / drug addict maturity level stops growing the day they pick up the habit and the twelve step programs and spin offs mask off the real underlying issues that were never resolved. So that's were he is stuck, in his own ignorance and stupidity, unwilling to change fearing some of his associates closer to him might reject him. What Hugo pins to the coinage 'personally a coward"

To think someone still wet behind the ears like that even had anything to with such major planning in something like a MIHOP / LIHOP is a reach. He was more like set up - fall guy for the back drop of it more than anything else

[BrklynLiberal]

30. I am, and always will be a MIHOP person.

Let's see. 3 hours and this thread is not in the dungeon yet!!!!

[Nye Bevan]

33. I am *very* glad that Charlie Sheen is on the case.

I am confident that he will get to the bottom of it.

[BlueEyedSon]

42. I made no mention of Charlie Sheen. The guest is an author of a NY Mag

piece

[LunaC]

38. Slam it home!

PNAC 101 - Rise of the Neocons details MIHOP with mainstream/credible sources that are hard to refute. Make copies. Give them to your family, friends, co-workers. Leave them at book stores, copy shops, libraries and train stations...in buses, taxis, laundromats, and check-out lines at the grocery store...hair salons, rest rooms, gas stations and convenience stores. Anywhere you happen to be will work just fine. The American public deserves to know the TRUTH!

The door's been kicked open. Take advantage of this oppoortunity to spread the word!

[Hutzpa]

41. I have always believe in

MIHOP AND LIHOP, always felt that either one could have been, it just does not make sense, Bin Laden has properties in Texas, has a brother running his businesses in Texas, how on earth will you jeopardise all of that, its like saying "I feel like burning all my money today" lemme blow up WTC to risk everything.

[radio4progressives]

45. She Interviewed Mark Jacobson who just did excellent 16 page article OT

If you haven't read the piece yet, it's an excellent outline of the most popular threads of coincidence theories, carefully delineating the differences and accurately identifying the basic premises or themes.

you can find it here:

http://newyorkmetro.com/news/features/16464/index.html

[pberq]

56. Let's keep the 9/11 truth movement alive!

See this video by David Ray Griffin:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8765.htm

The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions
Professor David Ray Griffin

"Hypocrisy With Regard To The Sanctity Of Life Has Long Been a Feature Of Official U.S. Rhetoric".

Professor Griffin argues that "omissions and distortions" in the report amount to a cover-up by government officials and says that the available evidence suggests that the Bush administration was complicit in the 9/11 attacks.

Broadcast On C-Span 2 - Thursday, April 28, 2005

[stickdog]

66. But WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN???

Do you realize how stupid we look when say outrageous things like this about our fearless leaders?

We can't fight with the gloves off unless we want all three branches of government to go the side that has already done so for over 20 years!

[Gman]

68. Amazing that its over 4 years later

that they are now talking about these.

[savemefromdumbya]

70. No one would have dared to talk about it 4 years ago!

[Cookie wookie]

72. Bush is not incompetent.

He is deliberate, intentional, focused.

He had his little speech ready before he got to the school on 9/11. It was, "War on Terror, The Introduction." Was he alarmed, worried, scared, shocked, confused, mortified? Didn't seem to be. By 8:30 p.m. on 9/11, he was televised making a speech that gave us, "The Bush Doctrine." His recollection: "It was an interesting day." Is that incompetence speaking?

According to cooperativeresearch.org, "Before going to sleep around 11:30 p.m., Bush wrote in his diary, “The Pearl Harbor of the 21st century took place today.... We think it's Osama bin Laden.” "

As far as New Orleans goes, he and his administration have intentionally appointed worthless and stupid leadership to all the agencies that protect the good of our society and our people. Do all these appointments stem from incompetence in the Bush administration? Or are they deliberate acts to undermine our social structure?

However, if people believed that Bush is acting competently and intentionally then some might even conclude that he is a traitor, who prefers his Saudi friends to Americans, and that he and his cohorts have intentionally set out to destroy this country. After all, if the country goes bankrupt then the corporate leaders who drained all the wealth from the country could then make slaves of the American people.

And after all, Bush said himself that he'd prefer a dictatorship to a democracy, as long as he was the dictator. That wasn't incompetence speaking.