What is your opinion on MIHOP?

[_Jumper_]

And if you believe it, how did Shrub and co. pull it off without getting caught?

Two questions I have are how could inexperienced pilots who had trouble flying small planes suddenly fly large jets and make sharp turns with them? Also, many experts claim that the planes used on 9/11 were not capable of making such sharp turns--that only a military plane could do it. Can anyone debunk these claims?

The "smoking gun", IMO, is the failure to intercept the planes and NORAD being MIA that day.

[bobbieinok]

1. I went to LIHOP after a bit

1....W's non-reaction in FL

2....no planes go up

3....W and Cheney not wanting 9-11 investigation, delays, no money, no testifying under oath, etc

And more.

I really DO NOT want to be forced to MIHOP.

[gWbush is Mabus]

2. i am more of a LIHOP person, but

Bush has connections to:

the Presidency (duh)
all cabinet branches
CIA (incl. Bush I)
Senate
House
SCOTUS
many Governors
Carlyle Group
oil companies
PNAC
Bin Ladens
etc.
etc.
etc.

& the media

they ARE above the law

[stopthegop]

3. fantasy of people who hate Bush (IMO)

[tom_paine]

8. Like Watergate?

Perhaps it was more like the Tuskeegee Experiments.

No no no, it's MUCH more like the crazy fantasy of Iran-Contra.

Maybe it's more like the Conspiracy Theory that Enron colluded to deprive California of power to create a Phony Energy Crisis in 2001.

No no wait I know, it's more like the crazy conspiracy theory of CIA involvment in the overthrow of Chilean President Allende.

In fact, I think Salvatore Allende HIMSELF is an invention of crazy Bush-hating conspiracy theorists.

The man never existed, but he makes a good Conspiracy Theorist's Tale, doesn't it?

Lousy tinfoil hat NUTS and their loopy theories!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

62. No, that would be YOUR fantasy.

[boxster]

4. How about TSTSIC?

Too stupid to see it coming.

[ixion]

5. the more I read about it, the more I'm convinced of MIHOP

and this is based primarily on the physics and chemistry involved in the events, although there are many, many inconsistencies and improbabilities outside those areas.

Some good reading:

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/holmgren01.htm

http://thewebfairy.com/911/index.htm

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/mslp_i.htm

http://serendipity.ptpi.net/wtc.htm

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP310A.html

[_Jumper_]

10. Thanks for the links

:yourock:

[ixion]

18. sure thing

:hi:

[EDT]

13. If there was enough "dark" power to make MIHOP, why didn't he fake WMD?

If we can pre-plant exposives in buildings, or radio control planes, etc... that seems a far more monumental task than quitely dropping one helicopter worth of bad stuff and planting it somewhere in Iraq to find.

People around the world have hated us through many administrations, they just really socked us hard on that one.

[Insider]

15. apparently it wasn't necessary

they took iraq without any proof. there were/are protests, but nothing stopped them from invading, seizing oil fields, and dolling out lifelong contracts to friends.

according to PNAC, they HAD to have the new pearl harbor though, complete with graphic imagery.

[_Jumper_]

19. PNAC's Perle Harbor

The war in Afghanistan was planned in the summer of 2001 and was scheduled to begin in mid-October. Either 9/11 was an extremely fortuitous coincidence for PNAC or it was a LIHOP or MIHOP.

[EDT]

22. Wouldn't faking WMD have tied up many loose ends with the public?

Again my thought is, with all the covert manpower and money needed to pull off MIHOP, it seems it would have been a one sentence highlight in the evil master plan to have planted one helicopter drop of fake WMD, show it on the television shortly after the invasion, satsifying most of the public into thinking the invasion justified,

Instead the issue is an open sore that continues humiliate and hurt Bush's approval ratings. Seems if there was an evil master plan, this would have been one of the easiest actions to pull off.

[Sterling]

40. No it would actually create a smoking gun.

You can't fake a WMD find.

[_Jumper_]

16. Remote control of jets

That isn't as far-fetched as it seems. It is a new technology that was used successfully early in 2001 with a 737.

[Sterling]

39. Can't fake WMD

A WMD claim would have to be vetted by the IAEC and other international organizations.

The 9-11 investigation is still under the foot of the Bush administration. A case of the fox watching the henhouse.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

64. Sure "they" did. What do you know about the hijackers when...

...the FBI admits nothing is conclusive?

FBI Admits: No Evidence Links 'Hijackers' to 9-11
<http://www.americanfreepress.net/051302/FBI_Admits__No_Evidence_/fbi_admits__no_evidence_.html>

And what will you think after you read this article?

Pentagon Lied: Terrorists Trained at U. S. Bases
<http://www.madcowprod.com/issue06.html>


IMHO, the NeoCons will use WMDs only when they feel their power slipping away here in the U. S. That will be approximately 2-4 months before the 2004 elections and will result in the declaration of martial law and the indefinite suspension elections.

Far-fetched, you say? Take a look at the events of the last three plus years and tell me you were expecting any of it.

[MI Cherie]

73. It's way too early to find WMDs ...

... it's not fall yet!

[DuctapeFatwa]

6. Let me ask you a question. If you were in charge of a country, and you

believed that your commercial airplanes had been hijacked by a hostile entity and crashed into buildings, which incendiary devices would you allow passengers to carry onto airplanes after that happened?

For the second part of your question, if you are old enough to remember the Rodney King video, you may remember seeing people looking at it and arguing very heatedly over whether the police were brutally beating a downed man, or whether Rodney was writhing on the ground in a threatening manner..

If you are not old enough to remember that, go to http://newamericancentury.org/ and look at the signatures.

Then go over to Free Republic and ask how many believe that PNAC is a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.

[_Jumper_]

12. I'm a MIHOP person

I am curious as to how they pulled it off. Why hasn't anyone squealed?

The PNAC thing is tragic. If we could get the truth about PNAC out Shrub would be history.

[DuctapeFatwa]

31. Rodney King. People see what they want to see

millions of people watched 2 huge buildings implode. on live TV.

Within hours, the regime said they found Mo Atta's passport. unsinged.

While hundreds, thousands of families were being told, sorry, your loved one vaporized, nothing to bury.

It goes on and on, people see what they want to see, believe what they want to believe.

For most of them, I think it is a comfort level thing. It is a lot easier emotionally to believe in shadowy "evildoers" that the good guys are rooting out of their holes and bringing to justice than to confront the reality that the people who are supposed to be protecting you are more interested in protecting their pocketbooks - so much so that you are completely and utterly expendable, and for all practical purposes, entirely without recourse against a monster regime.

If you've ever had a friend who was madly in love with someone who was a complete asshole, who cheated on them, lied, treated them like dirt, but your friend just would not, COULD not, emotionally not capable of acknowledging it, and just pretended it all wasn't so, and that the object of their affection was a wonderful person who like everybody had some minor problems but deep down really loved your friend so much...

[Terwilliger]

7. I don't know but look at the polls

had it not been for 9/11, Bush wouldn't have been able to start the Iraq war, and his poll numbers could now very well be in the 20's

It may not be MIHOP, but it's sure as hell LIHOP.

[ThoughtCriminal]

9. If it was MIHOP, it was badly planned

They would have set Bush up to appear bold and courageous, not sitting bewildered reading a Pet Goat story with no clue of what he needed to be doing.

[Braden]

27. who said Bush needs to be involved?

Uncle Dick was in the Command Center while the little shit was in Florida.

<somewhat tongue in cheek/>

[demodewd]

91. I wonder..

I wonder if Bush was privy to the whole set up ..maybe just parts of it. Did he know the Towers were going to collapse??

[On the Road]

11. I Would Need Hard Evidence to Believe MIHOP

I am still undecided on what happened, even after reading a lot of material. Many strange things turn out to have perfectly reasonable explanations. Evidence has to be treated skeptically. But it should never be ignored.

The two pieces of evidence that are most compelling to me are (1) the clip of the plane hitting the Pentagon, in which the plane appears to be only half the size of a 757, and (2) the strange bump on the plane that hit the second tower (per Will Pitt's earlier thread).

There are lots of others, but I don't have the knowledge to evaluate all the arguments: the seismic data, the limited damage to the Pentagon, the free-fall collapse, the melted steel in the basement, etc.

These are the types of things that would be convincing. Circumstantial evidence or suspicious reactions by Bush, Cheney, or other has to be really strong to rise to this level.

I would love to see some of the engineering and scientific arguments debated in an open forum with knowledgable proponents of both sides.

[_Jumper_]

14. Half the size of a 757?

Is that true? I have read that early reports indicated that the planes that hit the towers appeared to be commuter planes but the story suddenly changed. Were they actual commuter planes and if so, what happened to the original 757's?

That strange bump may be explained. I read a lot of the thread that he linked to and American Airlines 757's have such a bump/

The smoking gun for me is NORAD's non-reaction. When golfer Payne Stewart was lost he was intercepted in 19 minutes. On 9/11 NORAD was inexplicably inefficient.

[TNOE]

25. Here's a good one too

http://www.public-action.com/911/bumble.html

Especially good.

[On the Road]

26. I Couldn't Find the Best Link, But Here's One:

http://www.utopiax.org/aa77.html

and the top of this one:

http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/Geometry77.pdf

Here's another:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jpdesm/pentagon/pages-en/im-origin.html



That plane on the bottom right is supposed to be a 757, which is twice as long as the Pentagon is high. Maybe it's a trick of perspective, but I can't see how.

You may want to search for awhile. There's tons of stuff out there.

[demodewd]

92. ericbart

I like this one... http://perso.wanadoo.fr/ericbart/

[Sterling]

54. IMHO all of those issues while worth scrutiny

are for the most part a distraction to the more tangible evidence such as motive (PNAC) and the lies told regarding 9-11 (terrorists passports, no way to defnd against such an attack, etc...)

I can't say MIHOP for sure based on what we have in front of us as fact at this time. I can say the official version is a complete lie.

I do think MIHOP is likely but that is just my speculation. I think an honest and fair inquiry would more than likely expose MIHOP.

[ixion]

21. read those links I posted

when you get into the physics of things, it just doesn't make sense.

[el_gato]

17. whatever the case may be, the official line is bull hockey

Given the cravings of the CFR and PNAC for another Pearl Harbor
I have to go with LIHOP with a little bit of greasing the skids
maybe that's more of a limited MIHOP.

Either way I'm not eating at IHOP.

some issues:

the G8 conference in Genoa in July '01 (anti-aircraft batteries for
the stated purpose of shooting down possible suicidal aircraft)

Condoleeza's lies in May of '02

the Mysterious case of Ashcroft no longer flying commercial aircraft in August of '01

The exodus of DC by the bush admin for the entire month of August '01

The magical unscathed passport sitting on top of the WTC rubble

The refusal to allow for the examination of that harddrive

I could go on

[Az]

20. They turned the wheel

The main difficulty with flying a plane is taking off an landing. Once in the air its very very easy. You turn the wheel and the plane goes there. You could sit in a jet yourself that was already airborn and after a few turns of the wheel expect to have a reasonable chance of hitting the two tallest buildings in the world. You have heard the saying couldn't hit the broad side of a barn? These are bigger.

The full MIHOP theory is the stuff of standard Conspiracy Theorists. It is based more on the psychological needs of the theorists than any thing else. The numbers needed for the full MIHOP would have countless leaks and eruptions on a full time basis. It would not last a week.

LIHOP on the other hand relies on a few people in key positions pulling back on the system to allow an already committed group to go through with their plans. This is far more managible and fits the current facts.

[ixion]

23. Acutally, my MIHOP beliefs are not at all based on psychological

explanations.

And the only Conspiracy Theory that's out there is the official story, IMHO.

[On the Road]

It Should Be Decided by Hard Evidence

Arguments for MIHOP based on suspicious activity or the feeling that something "must" have happened are usually made by people don't evaluate evidence very well.

On the other hand, believing something could NOT have happened because "not even Bush is capable of that" or "someone would have found out" is on the same psychological level. Both types of arguments must take a back seat to physical evidence.

There's plenty of it around. It's been analyzed ad nauseumNonbelievers in MIHOP have attempted to dismiss much of it. I don't know whether the MIHOP arguments or the denials are accurate.

The things that stand out to be are the bump on the plane that hit the second tower and the apparently small size of the plane that hit the Pentagon on the video clip. I could be wrong, but I can't look at those and reconcile them with the official version of events.

That's why I'm not a believer, but I do take MIHOP seriously.

[MadHound]

83. Have you ever flown a plane? A jet?

It's a little more complicated than simply turning a wheel(actually called the yoke). Even flying level you have to constantly account for three factors, roll pitch and yaw. Making a turn you have 2-3 actions to perform, turning the yoke, working the foot pedals, and possibly pulling back on/pushing forward on the yoke. You have to keep an eye on air speed, and you can't turn too quickly or you risk ripping the wings off. Yes, taking off and landing is the hardest parts of flying, but you have got to be on top of your game while flying, otherwise you can go down quick, especially when you are trying to manuever a jet at low levels in an urban area.

An eight year old child can fly a small plane, but it takes a great deal of skill to fly a large jet, you have to know the plane and it's capabilities. If you don't, you won't make it more than a hundred miles before you go down.

[_Jumper_]

87. A novice

Do you believe novices, who barely could fly small planes, could pull of 9/11 like the official story says?

[Snazzy]

24. ANG responds to hijacking, Nov 11, 1972

http://tinyurl.com/2g3ov

9/11 scenario faced
In 1972, airmen confronted possibility of having to shoot down a hijacked airplane

BY PETER BACQUE
TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER Dec 1, 2003


This time was different, Bill Campenni said.

The command "Stand by to arm" got his undiluted attention.

"Wait a minute," the air defense fighter pilot thought. "We don't do that."

On that dreary day in 1972, a military controller was ordering the Air National Guard captain to get ready to destroy a hijacked DC-9 airliner filled with Americans.

....

Pretty damn amazing coincidence. May become a LIHOP convert yet.

Let me explain--this commercial jet was hijacked in Alabama while Bush was AWOL in Alabama. That's right around election week.

The hijackers threatened to crash it into a nuke plant (Oakridge) or Nixon's residence in Florida.

The Air National Guard responded, in the same plane's Bush trained on, same guy's Bush trained with. In fact, just found out about this researching his AWOL apologist and fellow guardsman Campenni (who had a letter to ed in today's Moonie).

Weapons free to shoot down a commercial jet that terrorists were going to use as a missile to strike buildings. (Throw in some Cuba just for fun.)

Freakin' amazing.

[cosmicdot]

28. I believe it. "Bush knew. Now, do you?"

how did they get away with it?

they've have enormous amount of experience and have enormous amount of resources

Who killed JFK?

Where has all the money gone? a couple of trillion from the Pentagon??

"Bush knew. Now, do you?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=995140#997076

[_Jumper_]

33. Has this been confirmed???????

Osama Bin Laden
Family business ties to the Bush dynasty and long-time intelligence asset. In October 2001, French intelligence leaked that Osama had met the CIA station chief while receiving medical treatment at the American Hospital in Dubai.

[Minstrel Boy]

47. reports on the CIA meeting bin Laden in July 2001:

From The Guardian, November 1, 2001:

Two months before September 11 Osama bin Laden flew to Dubai for 10 days for treatment at the American hospital, where he was visited by the local CIA agent, according to the French newspaper Le Figaro.

The disclosures are known to come from French intelligence which is keen to reveal the ambiguous role of the CIA, and to restrain Washington from extending the war to Iraq and elsewhere.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,584444,00.html

From the Agence France story, October 31, 2001:

(AFP) - Osama bin Laden underwent treatment in July at the American Hospital in Dubai where he met a US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) official, French daily Le Figaro and Radio France International reported.

Quoting "a witness, a professional partner of the administrative management of the hospital," they said the man suspected by the United States of being behind the September 11 terrorist attacks had arrived in Dubai on July 4 by air from Quetta, Pakistan.

He was immediately taken to the hospital for kidney treatment. He left the establishment on July 14, Le Figaro said.

During his stay, the daily said, the local CIA representative was seen going into bin Laden's room and "a few days later, the CIA man boasted to some friends of having visited the Saudi-born millionaire."
http://www.rense.com/general16/amer.htm

[_Jumper_]

57. Thanks

Did they report that in Canada? If so, what was the reaction of the Canadian people?

[Minstrel Boy]

60. I remember hearing about it at the time. Even, I think, some US reports,

but it went no further than the official denial. It was one of the early indicators for me that all was not as it seemed.

[_Jumper_]

68. Most Canadians

Which camp do you think most Canadians fall into, LIHOP, MIHOP, or the official story?

[Minstrel Boy]

85. I think most Canadians, like most everybody,

accept the official story on just about anything.

But I'm sure there are more here than in the US who accept LIHOP/MIHOP, and it also gets a more receptive hearing.

A few for instances, from the media. Vision-TV, which is a non-sectarian faith channel, not only broadcast, but produced, Barry Zwicker's 9/11 documentary The Great Deception. Last year the well-known Michelle Landsberg, a Toronto Star columnist and wife of the former Canadian ambassador to the UN, wrote a couple of columns admitting she believed 9/11 was an inside job, and argued the case using the timeline. And CBC radio interviewed at length former State Department official Michael Springman, who says he was witness to the CIA sending Al Qaeda members to the US for training through the Jeddah bureau, and that the dead of 9/11 "may have been sacrificed in order to further wider US geopolitical objectives."

[_Jumper_]

86. That's great

It appears you have a free press in Canada.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

29. totally an MIHOP believer here

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[DrWeird]

32. I don't believe it.

It's not that I don't believe Bush isn't capable of killing 3,000 american civilians, he's already killed 540 americans and tens of thousands of civilians. It's just that he is capable of orchestrating such a perfect plan. If he were calling the shots one plane would have crashed into the ocean, one would have flown through a billboard, a barn, and finally would have crashed into an airplane hangar and the terrorists would have run off a la Mickey Rooney and Buddy Hackett, the third would have landed sans wings on an aircraft carrier, and the fourth would have crashed into the side of a mountain after getting lost.

Nope.

But I can easily believe that he let it happen by being so fucking incompetent.

[burythehatchet]

38. It wasn't Bush

Dim son is the puppet. That's why they had to install him. Anyone else who had a chance to be pres would never have gone along with it or would have been smart enough to figure it out IT ALL GOES THROUGH CHENEY

btw I like the term "Perle Harbor". I think I'll use it from now on.

[Zero Gravitas]

34. Nothing about MIHOP makes any sense to me

frankly the claims of remote controlled planes and pre-planted explosives are so implausible as not to be worth discussing. MIHOP makes the "Hillary killed Vince Foster" crowd seem rational.

They Let It Happen Through Incompetence IMO.

[ixion]

35. Jusy because it doesn't make sense to you

that doesn't make it any more true or false. There is some interesting physical evidence that defies several of the laws of physics (Not to mention Occam's Razor) and for these reasons are, at the very least, worthy of consideration.

By the way, I am NOT a conspiracy theorist. ;-)

[Zero Gravitas]

36. Occam's Razor

would indicate to me that there is no substance behind the MIHOP theories.

[Sterling]

43. I disagree

And I was unaware that Oscams razor was the final authority on the matter.

I think Oscam sides with LIHOP as it is much more easy to believe than the official story with it's many holes.

[rman]

80. conspiracies are not natural phenomena

criminal activity is whatever it is, which isn't necessarily the simplest that is possible.

[ixion]

41. a quote

According to the practitioners of the fruit loop, 19 Arabs took over the 4 planes by subduing the passengers and crew through the use of guns, knives, box cutters and gas, and then used electronic guidance systems which they had smuggled on board to fly the planes to their targets.

The suspension of disbelief required for this outrageous concoction is only for the hard-core conspiracy theorist. For a start, they conveniently skip over the awkward fact that there weren't any Arabs on the planes. If there were, one must speculate that they somehow got on board without being filmed by any of the security cameras and without being registered on the passenger lists. But the curly question of how they are supposed to have got on board is all too mundane for the exciting world of the conspiracy theorist. With vague mumblings that they must have been using false ID (but never specifying which IDs they are alleged to have used, or how these were traced to their real identities), they quickly bypass this problem, to relate exciting and sinister tales about how some of the fictitious fiends were actually searched before boarding because they looked suspicious. However, as inevitably happens with any web of lies, this simply paints them into an even more difficult corner. How are they supposed to have got on board with all that stuff if they were searched? And if they used gas in a confined space, they would have been affected themselves unless they also had masks in their luggage.

<snip>

This is another favourite deductive method of the conspiracy theorist. The "improbability drive", in which they decide upon a conclusion without any evidence whatsoever to support it, and then continually speculate a series of wildly improbable events and unbelievable co-incidences to support it, shrugging off the implausibility of each event with the vague assertion that sometimes the impossible happens (just about all the time in their world). There is a principle called "Occam's Razor" which suggests that in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct. Conspiracy theorists hate Occam's razor.






http://www.serendipity.li/wot/holmgren01.htm



what part of that doesn't make sense?

[_Jumper_]

45. There were Arabs on those planes

People have been confused on that because the airlines did not list the hijackers when they released their flight manifests. That said, the rest of what you posted makes a ton of sense.

[Sterling]

48. Yes that is an oddity

The list that were absent the "hijackers" was released too early to be redacted for the reason you site. 7 of the hijackers later were found to be alive and well. I have yet to see survailence camera footage of any of the hijackers at the relivant airports either.

[Sterling]

46. Yep Oscam at it again.

It's funny that those who invoke Oscam don't see the irony in this situation.

[Sterling]

44. So don't discuss them?

Stick to PNAC and the wealth of other information that is not based on speculation.

[Minstrel Boy]

56. But MIHOP doesn't demand

any of those things. Not in my understanding, anyway.

"Making it happen" means simply doing more than doing nothing. That doesn't require demolition charges or remote control. To me, it means seeing to it that the hijackers were protected prior to the event, quite possibly without their knowledge.

My own understanding of MIHOP includes managing the scale of the event. Seeing to it, for instance, that a piss-poor pilot could hit the ground floor of the Pentagon at excessive speed and after a 270 degree spiralling descent, and hit the one side that was undergoing renovation, hardened against terrorist attack and relatively empty.

[Nihil]

78. Hear, hear!

> But MIHOP doesn't demand" any of those things.

Correct. The worrying thing is that as soon as MIHOP (or even some
LIHOP interpretations) start to gain ground, the disruptors of those
theories immediately start linking in discredited or complete dingbat
comments in order to discredit the thread.

> "Making it happen" means simply doing more than doing nothing.
> That doesn't require demolition charges or remote control.
> To me, it means seeing to it that the hijackers were protected
> prior to the event, quite possibly without their knowledge.

100% agreement. KISS. There is no need for elaborate, widespread
networks of conspirators ("how could they keep everyone quiet?") when
there are but a few powerful people in key places or with control over
those others on the "critical path".

There are too many holes in the official explanation - any of which
could reveal the big lie. Those holes were not created by a single
person but neither were they controlled by a large number of unrelated
people.

How much incentive does a felon require to dispose of a video tape?
Once it has been destroyed, who could ever prove that it existed, much
less that person X had ordered/requested/bought its destruction?
Better still, when key points are "controlled" by a nameless minion,
the latter's vulnerability is a big issue: not only to obtain the
action in the first place but also to keep the silence afterwards and
to obfusticate any later investigation.

Nihil

[bpilgrim]

37. it's certainly possible though i wouldn't go so far to say that they

didn't 'get caught' not unless you are willing to ignore the millions around the world who think the neoCONs had their had in it, and there is no debate about prior knowledge, since it has been widely reported - even here - that the regime was WARNED, repeatedly, at the highest levels, and even by our OWN intel folks, one who even wrote 'these folks are just the type to fly a plane inthe the WTC' but the neoCONs didn't lift a finger, cept to save their own skin like a$$crust refusing to fly civilian airlines summer 01, and then their BIZZAR behavior that very day, like why didn't the SS whisk bush out the classroom even if he didn't have a CLUE and even STRANGER... why did he even go to the school once they learned of the hijack(s)???

i agree... S.O.P. across MULTIBLE, DISPERATE - military, SS, FAA - SYSTEMS failed MASSIVELY and weTHEpeople MUST hold them ACCOUNTABLE and find the TRUTH to what happened that HORRIBLE day as to hope to PREVENT IT.

REMEMBER PERL HARBOR!
they used the SAME LAME excuse then, 'no one was talking to eachother', and so they - the gov - 'fixed' it and now we have 911... but not to worry, they are gonna FIX it again :evilgrin:

ah, well... that's the way of the world i suppose, at least that's what NPR tells me ;->

peace

[Sterling]

51. Yes they have been "caught"

We just have yet to hold them accountable.

[bpilgrim]

53. true

and there is no statue of limitations for MURDER.

:hi:

peace

[ComerPerro]

42. I suspected LIHOP the day of 9/11/01

And I still do.

I don't really believe it is completely, 100% MIHOP. That is, I don't believe that it was entirely engineered by the administration.

I think they needed some kind of catastrophe to justify their plans. I imagine they recieved warnings and breifings about this, and thought "Hey..."

But, I fully believe it was LIHOP.

In fact, my opinion borders on MIHOP because I believe they did everything in their power to make sure that this happened the way it was supposed to.

[durutti]

49. No smoking gun. There was no failure to intercept. NORAD wasn't MIA.

Here are the records from NORAD, as posted on their Web site:

American Airlines Flight 11 ? Boston enroute to Los Angeles
FAA Notification to NEADS 0840*
Fighter Scramble Order (Otis Air National Guard Base, Falmouth, Mass. Two F-15s) 0846**
Fighters Airborne 0852
Airline Impact Time (World Trade Center 1) 0846 (estimated)***
Fighter Time/Distance from Airline Impact Location Aircraft not airborne/153 miles

United Airlines Flight 175 ? Boston enroute to Los Angeles
FAA Notification to NEADS 0843
Fighter Scramble Order (Otis ANGB, Falmouth, Mass.
Same 2 F-15s as Flight 11) 0846
Fighters Airborne 0852
Airline Impact Time (World Trade Center 2) 0902 (estimated)
Fighter Time/Distance from Airline Impact Location approx 8 min****/71 miles

American Flight 77 ?Dulles enroute to Los Angeles
FAA Notification to NEADS 0924
Fighter Scramble Order (Langley AFB, Hampton, Va.
2 F-16s) 0924
Fighters Airborne 0930
Airline Impact Time (Pentagon) 0937(estimated)
Fighter Time/Distance from Airline Impact Location approx 12 min/105 miles

United Flight 93 ? Newark to San Francisco
FAA Notification to NEADS N/A *****
Fighter Scramble Order (Langley F-16s already airborne for AA Flt 77)
Fighters Airborne (Langley F-16 CAP remains in place to protect DC)
Airline Impact Time (Pennsylvania) 1003 (estimated)
Fighter Time/Distance from Airline Impact Location approx 11 min/100 miles
(from DC F-16 CAP)

[durutti]

52. Deleted by author.

[Sterling]

55. No failure to intercept?

I guess those planes crashing into the TC's and most of all the Pentagon
were fake?

Please explain how the most heavily defended airspace in the world was attacked unchalleged after over one hour of our defenses being notified?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

66. I see that you conveniently left out the most critical times for each...

...aircraft, and those were the times each plane took off and when the FAA knew for a fact that, at the very least, something was going wrong.

Let's look at the first two hijacked airliners:

FLIGHT 11:

7:59 - Flight 11 takes off from Logan International Airport in Boston, Massachusetts.

8:13 - The last recorded transmission from Flight 11.

8:14-8:20 - Flight 11 goes off course; IFF turned off at 8:20.

Why was there a 20 minute delay from 8:20 until 8:40 for the FAA to notify NORAD? Why was there another 6 minute delay before NORAD ordered the interceptors to launch from Otis ANG Base? The planes didn't leave the ground until 8:52...a total of 32 minutes from the time when the FAA knew the plane had been hijacked. With a top speed of approximately 1500 mph, and located 153 miles from the WTC, the planes should have reached the WTC in approximately 6 minutes at 8:58, more than quickly enough to have located and shot down the second airliner. They were still 71 miles away at the time of the second plane's impact at 9:03. In 11 minutes, the planes had travelled 82 miles...an incredibly slow speed of approximately 450 mph.

FLIGHT 175:

8:14 - Flight 175 takes off from Logan International Airport in Boston, Massachusetts.

8:41 - Last transmission with Flight 175.

8:46 - IFF turned off.

9:00 - Last radar reading on United Airlines Flight 175 is observed at an altitude of 18,000 feet, descending, with a ground speed of 480 knots.

[RBHam]

50. A Review of 911 Theory

Good site I just found. Just one of many.

By the way, always have a copy of Paul Thompson's Complete 9-11 timeline near:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/index.html

[_Jumper_]

58. Thanks

n/t

[TomNickell]

59. Just checked....

Not quite a Full Moon.

Don't remember if it's waxing or waning.

[KYDEM]

61. How did hijackers board planes?

A few days after 9-11 CBS did a piece on how there are many people that have access to plane before boarding such as airline catering service people can you guess who owns the largest airline catering service and guess who sat on board of directors from 1990-1996? Very convenient
:http://www.winterboy.com/dejavu15.html



<snip> George W. Bush is asked by the Carlyle Group to serve on the board of directors of CaterAir, a Bin Laden family enterprise, which is also one of the US’s largest airline catering services. Carlyle acquired it in 1989. The offer is arranged by Fred Malek


www.truthout.org/0662.Bush.Saudi.htm.
<snip> Carlyle also gave the Bush family a hand in 1990 by putting George W. Bush, who was then struggling to find a career, on the board of a Carlyle subsidiary, Caterair, an airline-catering company.

[KYDEM]

63. Kick

n/t

[durutti]

65. Vince Foster.

LIHOP and MIHOP are the Left's version of Vince Foster conspiracies.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

67. Maybe you need to read the following...

<http://pilger.carlton.com/print/124759>

QUOTE:

The threat posed by US terrorism to the security of nations and individuals was outlined in prophetic detail in a document written more than two years ago and disclosed only recently. What was needed for America to dominate much of humanity and the world's resources, it said, was "some catastrophic and catalysing event - like a new Pearl Harbor". The attacks of 11 September 2001 provided the "new Pearl Harbor", described as "the opportunity of ages". The extremists who have since exploited 11 September come from the era of Ronald Reagan, when far-right groups and "think-tanks" were established to avenge the American "defeat" in Vietnam. In the 1990s, there was an added agenda: to justify the denial of a "peace dividend" following the cold war. The Project for the New American Century was formed, along with the American Enterprise Institute, the Hudson Institute and others that have since merged the ambitions of the Reagan administration with those of the current Bush regime.

[leesa]

69. After four years of reading thousands of articles and documents about

the Bush Crime Family, their relations with the Saudis and the Israelis and the Kuwaitis, the oil barons, the Brits, I have not a single doubt that the Bush Crime Family was involved in 9-11. By the Crime Family I mean all of them, all the Bushes, the Cheney's, all the oil barons, all the Murdochs and other corporatists. They were in on the planning, the implementation and they cashed in big time on the aftermath.
Not a single doubt.

[historian]

70. BRAVO

and well said - that is something i have been convinced of ever since the first war with Iraq.

[mac2]

71. After four years of dot connecting me either

http://serendipity.ptpi.net/wtc4.htm

[JackRiddler]

72. 60 percent of DU says inside job

See the 9/11 poll:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1082363

10 percent choose MIHOP scenarios, if these are defined as meaning that there were no hijackers, the whole thing was hatched and carried out by a U.S. inside team.

50 percent choose LIHOP scenarios, defined as inside job in which elements of U.S. govt or establishment take over a pre-existing plot by actual Qaeda terrorists.

Another big chunk went with criminal incompetence, or the idea of "Saudi double cross/Bush coverup" or "Wishing for Pearl Harbor" (in which the Bush regime provoked but did not facilitate 9/11). Only 10 percent go for the official story.

[Dunedain]

74. MIHOP

I don't believe this instance stands in isolation. The historical record, from either bias would show that the people who we have entrusted our Republic to are rapacious thieves.

[eridani]

75. MIHOP requires too many people to keep their traps shut--

--LIHOP would require many fewer.

[rman]

81. LIHOP and MIHOP come down to the same thing

If one deliberately does not do what one can do to prevent a disaster, then in effect one makes it purposefully so that it does happen.


Whether LIHOP or MIHOP, not everyone who somehow cooperates with the conspiracy needs to be in on all the details. It's like the Mafia, where people know only what they need to know in order to play their part. Typically people lower down the chain of command know less then people high up in the chain of command. The conspirators who do know some of the more significant details kow they are complicit, so they know they better not talk about it as to not implicate themselves in a crime. So they are quite motivated to keep their trap shut. Some who know less might talk, but they just don't have very much to talk about.
And mind you, the Mafia was pretty big and was quite succesfull while it lasted - as a matter of fact, organized crime in general arguably still is quite effective. I'd say it is obvious that even big conspiracies can and do work, while they last.

[tobius]

76. and the cell phone calls were taped beforehand

[_Jumper_]

88. Really?

Do you have a link?

[demodewd]

93. How about?

How about voice replication?

[tobius]

77. the bellhop handed

me this on a slip of paper-' "My tinfoil hat theory is this:

ROVE/BUSH/CHENEY ARE GOING TO INSTIGATE SOME MIHOP TERROR ATTACK, BIO ATTACK IN THE US, MAYBE CALIFORNIA, WHEREBY CALIFORNIANS WILL BE CLAMORING FOR A "STRONG" GOVERNOR TO PROTECT US! THEY CAN FINISH THE JOB ENRON STARTED, AND GET A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR TO HAND THEM THE STATE IN 2004.' "http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=156846&mesg_id=156846


“What happens if you get scared half to death twice?” — Steven Wright

[rman]

79. without getting caught *so far*

any conspiracy holds untill such time when the perpatrators are caught.

if the perpatrators belong to Al Qaeda, then how did they pull it off without getting caught?

[Fight_n_back]

82. If Bush had planned 9/11

then the planes would have missed the buildings.


As far as the planes not being able to make sharp turns...I would have to give in to what I saw with my own eyes, the planes made sharp turns.

[gandalf]

84. Who says Bush planned 9/11?

MIHOP is certainly not identical to "Bush initiated it". IF 9/11 was the result of MIHOP, then it would have been a complicated operation that had started years before Bush came into office.

[_Jumper_]

89. Bush is just the frontman

Cheney and PNAC are the ones really running the show.

[RichardRay]

90. No LIHOP, no MIHOP, just the inexorable push of history

Nobody is in control, not the the extent required to make any MIHOP or LIHOP scenario work. Events pile up and then topple over on us one and all. Change isn't created by men on horseback (or in airliners, for that matter), it's created by time and the accretion of load. We just do the best we can. Conspiracy theories like MIHOP and LIHOP are peoples' unwillingness to admit individual powerlessness.

[JackRiddler]

94. So what does this tell us about 9/11, pray tell?

Your point may be right in general terms, but let me see if you mean it:

Did the inexorable push of history fly the planes into the towers?

[RichardRay]

95. Nope, just some folks trying for some power

The folks flying the planes were just that, folks flying planes. They managed a big bang that has had consequences, but the actual change in the direction of history will be negligible in the long run.

The question was about LIHOP vs MIHOP - I believe that most folks who want it to be one or the other of those (or any of the other creative explanations for things that happen in the world) are trying to find ways to make sense of things in a human perspective. If some small band of miscreants Let It Happen or Made It Happen than there might be a way for some other small band of good guys to Keep It From Happening, so I don't have to feel powerless.

I DON'T have to feel powerless - there are ways to gain and utilize power in the world - but it's not by trying to fit explanations I like around events I want to control.